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View Full Version : Administration, phoenix club and the easy way out.



Spike Mandela
02-11-2011, 11:38 AM
The easy option future for Hearts and Rangers.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/rangers/277115-what-happens-when-a-club-in-administration-sets-up-a-phoenix-company/

Makaveli
02-11-2011, 12:05 PM
Am I reading that right? It seems odd that we need an 11-1 majority for things like TV rights, yet only 6 SPL board members (and only 4 of those are club representatives) approve the transfer of the 1/12th SPL shareholding to the phoenix company... and they don't even need a majority since a split 3-3 vote is decided by the SPL Chairman, Ralph Topping! Basically if 3 of the 4 club reps vote one way their voices wouldn't matter it wouldn't matter as Topping has the final say. :confused:

It stinks IMO.

On another note, I actually think the Huns turmoil is very good for Hearts. If it was just Hearts doing this would they get permission? It's not a conspiracy but surely nobody on the board likes them given how the club and its owner conduct their affairs. Obviously the SPL will bend over backwards for the boys in blue, and they couldn't very well let them away with it and stick the finger up to the war heroes... could they?

Darth Hibbie
02-11-2011, 12:17 PM
UEFA regulations state that a club must have been a member for three consecutive years in order to be eligible for a license. Any “phoenix” club would be considered as a new entity and would begin a three year wait from its inception before being eligible to play in Europe.
That bit is quite interesting. That would be a disaster for Rangers.

Caversham Green
02-11-2011, 12:54 PM
There's an important difference between the Huns and the Yams here. In the Huns case the money they will potentially owe is due to HMRC (they won't enter administration if they win their appeal) so they can't exit administration without the agreement of a third party. If the exit is blocked that's the point to raise a phoenx company. There's rather more to it than that article suggests and they would be seriously damaged, but I supect they would recover quite quickly because of their size within the context of Scottish football.

In the Yams case, the vast majority of their money is owed to 'Mr Romanov' so if they were in administration he would call the shots on whether or when they exit - a phoenix comany would be pointless in these circumstances. I said a while back that administration would benefit the Yams rather than harming them and I stand by that, but in truth it's unlikely to happen now because in the current circumstances 'Mr Romanov' (as opposed to HoMFC) would be much better off simply flushing them down the bog.

easty
02-11-2011, 12:56 PM
Am I reading that right? It seems odd that we need an 11-1 majority for things like TV rights, yet only 6 SPL board members (and only 4 of those are club representatives) approve the transfer of the 1/12th SPL shareholding to the phoenix company... and they don't even need a majority since a split 3-3 vote is decided by the SPL Chairman, Ralph Topping! Basically if 3 of the 4 club reps vote one way their voices wouldn't matter it wouldn't matter as Topping has the final say. :confused:

It stinks IMO.

On another note, I actually think the Huns turmoil is very good for Hearts. If it was just Hearts doing this would they get permission? It's not a conspiracy but surely nobody on the board likes them given how the club and its owner conduct their affairs. Obviously the SPL will bend over backwards for the boys in blue, and they couldn't very well let them away with it and stick the finger up to the war heroes... could they?

:agree:

I really don't like that theres no set penalty in place. It shouldnt be done on case by case basis, it should written down in the rules that going into administration carries a 15, 25, X amount of points penalty.

clerriehibs
02-11-2011, 01:04 PM
That's their get out of jail free card then.

Cardownie must have some inside knowledge about the tramps going belly up with roamingoff just about to walk out the door. Tynecastle will be levelled for ubigikio, or whatever his company's called, to get some money back for the debt. And cardownie knows that the tramps will retain their spl place, but will need somewhere to play ... as the Holy Ground isn't good enough for him & his fellow tramps, he's driving this "expectation" that the council should provide.

Diclonius
02-11-2011, 01:08 PM
I ****ing hate the Old Firm.

Part/Time Supporter
02-11-2011, 01:30 PM
http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/rangers/277010-what-happens-when-a-football-club-goes-into-administration/


Another option available to the SFA is to exclude a club [in administration] from the Scottish Cup. This is a new provision which first appeared in the organisation’s articles of association in the 2011/12 season.

Another fine chapter in their "special relationship" with the big cup?

:dunno:

WeAreHibs
02-11-2011, 02:16 PM
I was discussing this with a Celtic mate of mine and we both though (not surprisingly) that it could actually be a very good thing for the SPL if Rangers weren't given their place back. THere will obviously be member clubs who will still want the gate revenue, but what about the increased competition and european places that will become available for a few years till they make their way back up.

It's probably just wishful thinking but surely a few on the voting committee will feel cheated and see it this way :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Makaveli
02-11-2011, 02:21 PM
I was discussing this with a Celtic mate of mine and we both though (not surprisingly) that it could actually be a very good thing for the SPL if Rangers weren't given their place back. THere will obviously be member clubs who will still want the gate revenue, but what about the increased competition and european places that will become available for a few years till they make their way back up.

It's probably just wishful thinking but surely a few on the voting committee will feel cheated and see it this way :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sounds good, but in the real world Celtic will probably vote Rangers back in! For all the fan rivalry, the guys running the OF know they're nothing without each other. And as stated before it wouldn't matter how anyone else voted. Celtic + 2 SPL votes = 3/3, Topping casts the decisive vote for the Huns.

MB62
02-11-2011, 02:35 PM
That's their get out of jail free card then.

Cardownie must have some inside knowledge about the tramps going belly up with roamingoff just about to walk out the door. Tynecastle will be levelled for ubigikio, or whatever his company's called, to get some money back for the debt. And cardownie knows that the tramps will retain their spl place, but will need somewhere to play ... as the Holy Ground isn't good enough for him & his fellow tramps, he's driving this "expectation" that the council should provide.

I think therein lies the problem for the Yams. Whilst they seem happy that their debt is owed to themselves via Romanov, it is not directly his money but UKIO BANKAS that they owe their debt to. I would doubt very much that any bank would happily write of a debt of such magnitude as a good will gesture to keep a foreign company in existance.

This is of course only my opinion.

EuanH78
02-11-2011, 04:24 PM
There's an important difference between the Huns and the Yams here. In the Huns case the money they will potentially owe is due to HMRC (they won't enter administration if they win their appeal) so they can't exit administration without the agreement of a third party. If the exit is blocked that's the point to raise a phoenx company. There's rather more to it than that article suggests and they would be seriously damaged, but I supect they would recover quite quickly because of their size within the context of Scottish football.

In the Yams case, the vast majority of their money is owed to 'Mr Romanov' so if they were in administration he would call the shots on whether or when they exit - a phoenix comany would be pointless in these circumstances. I said a while back that administration would benefit the Yams rather than harming them and I stand by that, but in truth it's unlikely to happen now because in the current circumstances 'Mr Romanov' (as opposed to HoMFC) would be much better off simply flushing them down the bog.

Re: The bold above. Would this mean Rangers (old company) would be liquidated and does this mean that say, Ibrox would be sold to the highest bidder to recoup (some of) monies owed?

Also, from this article I take it that Airdrieonians were blocked by someone from rejoining as Airdrie United? If so, why and shouldnt the same rules be applied?

degenerated
02-11-2011, 04:30 PM
The easy option future for Hearts and Rangers.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/rangers/277115-what-happens-when-a-club-in-administration-sets-up-a-phoenix-company/

sure you don't mean this sort of phoenix club easy option for hearts - the similarities are uncanny :greengrin


http://www.channel4.com/programmes/peter-kays-phoenix-nights/episode-guide/series-2/episode-1

HFC 0-7
02-11-2011, 04:38 PM
Re: The bold above. Would this mean Rangers (old company) would be liquidated and does this mean that say, Ibrox would be sold to the highest bidder to recoup (some of) monies owed?

Also, from this article I take it that Airdrieonians were blocked by someone from rejoining as Airdrie United? If so, why and shouldnt the same rules be applied?

Ibrox has probably, or will probably be transferred to another company so if they do go into administration it wont be sold as they will no longer own it.

PatHead
02-11-2011, 04:58 PM
My understanding is that as the only secured creditor Whyte would have preferential claim on all of Rangers assets. Only if the assets exceeded Whyte's claim would other creditors have any claim. As there are unlikely to be enough assets to cover anything other than Whyte's debts the stadium would pass to him. He could then rent the stadium back to the new Rangers club

EuanH78
02-11-2011, 05:06 PM
Ibrox has probably, or will probably be transferred to another company so if they do go into administration it wont be sold as they will no longer own it.

Though not an indesputible source, wikipedia has Ibrox owned by Rangers Football Club Ltd. If this is indeed, still the case, surely it would not be legit to transfer this 'asset' to another company at this point in time?

EuanH78
02-11-2011, 05:07 PM
My understanding is that as the only secured creditor Whyte would have preferential claim on all of Rangers assets. Only if the assets exceeded Whyte's claim would other creditors have any claim. As there are unlikely to be enough assets to cover anything other than Whyte's debts the stadium would pass to him. He could then rent the stadium back to the new Rangers club

Preferential over HMRC?

Genuinely interested in how this all might fall out.

IWasThere2016
02-11-2011, 05:57 PM
Ralph Toppping is a Hibby is he no?

Part/Time Supporter
02-11-2011, 06:02 PM
sure you don't mean this sort of phoenix club easy option for hearts - the similarities are uncanny :greengrin


http://www.channel4.com/programmes/peter-kays-phoenix-nights/episode-guide/series-2/episode-1

The finest moment of the Phoenix Club

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU64cDx69f8

PatHead
02-11-2011, 06:22 PM
Preferential over HMRC?

Genuinely interested in how this all might fall out.

HMRC are no longer preferred creditors and take their place in the queue with every other creditor.

Caversham Green
02-11-2011, 08:05 PM
Re: The bold above. Would this mean Rangers (old company) would be liquidated and does this mean that say, Ibrox would be sold to the highest bidder to recoup (some of) monies owed?

Also, from this article I take it that Airdrieonians were blocked by someone from rejoining as Airdrie United? If so, why and shouldnt the same rules be applied?

Ibrox and other assets would be sold to Newhun Ltd by the administrator of Oldhun Ltd and the proceeds would go towards paying off the creditors. It would have to be at an acceptable price, and that's where the problems might arise, because the property is recorded in the accounts at over £100m. Whyte could either get his £18m back from the administrator as a secured creditor or carry the liability over to Newhun Ltd if he's still involved. Newhun then has to find a way of obtaining membership of the various bodies - possibly by buying another club that's skint and trying to move out of its old stadium. One that's already in the SPL and has a strong loyalist following would be ideal if such a club exists.


Ibrox has probably, or will probably be transferred to another company so if they do go into administration it wont be sold as they will no longer own it.

The problem is that under current circumstances Ibrox would have to be transferred at market value, otherwise it looks like (and probably is) fraud and, as I say, that value is somewhere north of £100m.

EuanH78
02-11-2011, 09:19 PM
HMRC are no longer preferred creditors and take their place in the queue with every other creditor.

I'm not sure I completely understand this. I understand that Whyte is a preffered creditor but I dont really understand how tax can be behind that, after all tax isn't a debt is it? it's a tax that should of been paid as a result of monies in or out or to put it another way, normal trading.. Is this not correct? and if not, how can a creditor possibly be before the taxman, especially one who has invested after the tax investigations had started?


Ibrox and other assets would be sold to Newhun Ltd by the administrator of Oldhun Ltd and the proceeds would go towards paying off the creditors. It would have to be at an acceptable price, and that's where the problems might arise, because the property is recorded in the accounts at over £100m. Whyte could either get his £18m back from the administrator as a secured creditor or carry the liability over to Newhun Ltd if he's still involved. Newhun then has to find a way of obtaining membership of the various bodies - possibly by buying another club that's skint and trying to move out of its old stadium. One that's already in the SPL and has a strong loyalist following would be ideal if such a club exists.



The problem is that under current circumstances Ibrox would have to be transferred at market value, otherwise it looks like (and probably is) fraud and, as I say, that value is somewhere north of £100m.

That at least brings a smile to my face as that seem like quite a predicament for either old or new HunCo :agree:

Thanks both for replies and patience with my stupid questions :greengrin

CropleyWasGod
02-11-2011, 09:41 PM
I'm not sure I completely understand this. I understand that Whyte is a preffered creditor but I dont really understand how tax can be behind that, after all tax isn't a debt is it? it's a tax that should of been paid as a result of monies in or out or to put it another way, normal trading.. Is this not correct? and if not, how can a creditor possibly be before the taxman, especially one who has invested after the tax investigations had started?



That at least brings a smile to my face as that seem like quite a predicament for either old or new HunCo :agree:

Thanks both for replies and patience with my stupid questions :greengrin

HMRC are a creditor, in that they are owed money. Whether that's VAT or PAYE that has been collected and not paid over, or the disputed tax on the players' salaries, it is still a debt. A debt like any other, like the Council, the stewards, the police.

As for your question about Whyte coming before HMRC, that's the law I am afraid. It's like you taking out a mortgage. The lender takes security over the house, so that they maximise the chances of the debt being repaid.