SNP's minimum unit price

[The_Exile]

Thoughts on this? Initially I'm dead against it on principal of "you cannae dae that!", but to be honest, what else will make a dent in this countrys cancerous relationship with drink? I don't want my kids growing up in a country that says you're a weirdo for not having a drink when you're out.

I enjoy the odd beer/whisky, but the amount of times I've been out with pals etc, and not had a drink, you get looked upon like you're a leper!

Personally, I think we've got such a major problem that you could set the rate at £1 a unit and it wouldn't stop folk from going overboard and acting like complete welts. Link below is to story regardin SNP re-introducing this within the next couple of months I think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15525950

[Jack]

There are so many different types of drinkers, IMO suggesting this is the silver bullet misses the target on most, of not all, counts.

Alcoholics wont care how much it costs.

Drunks that beat up their wife will still beat up their wife when they come home from the pub, or OF game.

Anti-social drinking youth? As far as I am aware the likes of Buckie wont be affected as it will be over the minimum price anyway! The anti-social kids will just steal more money for their white lightening!

TBH I cant see it making any difference to the weekend piss head either and even less the weekend piss head who then goes on to cause trouble. A huge amount of this relates to folk getting tanked up, on take away drink, ‘unsupervised’ at home, before they go out. My solution to this would be to find a way to make drinking in the pub/Hibs Club LESS expensive. Drinking in a ‘measured’ way, ‘supervised’, in public. Bar staff have a responsibility to ensure the safety of their customers and most take that responsibility seriously.

Rather than making it a minimum price, IMO, what they should go for is not allowing the drinks industry to sell to off-sale supermarkets etc. so much more cheaply than they do to on-sales pubs and Hibs Club.

So IMO these mentioned above and others like them wont be affected. Who will be affected are the vast majority of people who drink responsibly.

IMO there also has to be a break between alcohol and caffeine. Again not a silver bullet but the FDA took on the drinks companies in the USA over this and won – the evidence that was put forward was startling!

[steakbake]

Scotland definitely has a terrible relationship with alcohol and we need to do something about it.

The SNPs plan is not a silver bullet but it is one of a number of solutions. Evidence from Canada who introduced a similar proposal is that alcohol related hospital admissions fell following price rises.

The last time it was voted down, the accusation was that it was just oppositionalism: Labour, LibDems and the Cons didn't want to see it pass, so they rejected it.

Medical professionals, emergency services and all sorts of civic, legal and statutory body representatives are fully for it. I wonder what it is in the plans that makes the opposition parties think differently?

I will be glad to see it pass because it is time people grew up a bit in relation to alcohol.

[The_Exile]

it is time people grew up a bit in relation to alcohol.

I agree with this, but in this country, it will never, ever happen in my lifetime and I'm only 28, it's just seen as the way it is here and I don't think any type of government legislation will alter the status quo, apart from prohibition of course.

You look at coutries like France/Spain/Italy etc, they consume plenty alcohol, but it's socially unacceptable to be a total welt on it, so people take a drink, but don't act like erses, whereas over here, you must be seen to be getting hammered and acting a tube, how many times have we all heard the "aw ah cannae remember what I done last night or how I got hame, it was braw" speech, heartbreaking really.

I'm going to run for dictatorship and have breathalisers on ever pub door, you get a ticket before you go in saying how much you're allowed to drink, vote for me kids, you know it makes sense :wink:

[steakbake]

I agree with this, but in this country, it will never, ever happen in my lifetime and I'm only 28, it's just seen as the way it is here and I don't think any type of government legislation will alter the status quo, apart from prohibition of course.

You look at coutries like France/Spain/Italy etc, they consume plenty alcohol, but it's socially unacceptable to be a total welt on it, so people take a drink, but don't act like erses, whereas over here, you must be seen to be getting hammered and acting a tube, how many times have we all heard the "aw ah cannae remember what I done last night or how I got hame, it was braw" speech, heartbreaking really.

I'm going to run for dictatorship and have breathalisers on ever pub door, you get a ticket before you go in saying how much you're allowed to drink, vote for me kids, you know it makes sense :wink:

That'll get my vote.

I think in the UK, the point of going out of night for way too many people is to get hammered. Then you get the dicks who fight for no reason, pish in public places, put traffic cones on tops of cars and generally act like absolute cretins.

[bighairyfaeleith]

You see I'm torn, we do have a drink problem, but I luv getting bladdered:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

That'll get my vote.

I think in the UK, the point of going out of night for way too many people is to get hammered. Then you get the dicks who fight for no reason, pish in public places, put traffic cones on tops of cars and generally act like absolute cretins.

And then don't even wash their hands! :grr: :panic:

[Betty Boop]

More profit for the drink industry then ?

[marinello59]

More profit for the drink industry then ?

More like more profit for the supermarkets. Given that the theory is that a lower volume of booze will be sold that may not amount to much.

[Betty Boop]

More like more profit for the supermarkets. Given that the theory is that a lower volume of booze will be sold that may not amount to much.

I can't see how minimum pricing is going to change anything. Scotland's booze problem is cultural, surely a better solution would be alcohol awareness courses, and education in our schools.

[heretoday]

The phrase that always intrigues me is "responsible drinkers". Why should responsible drinkers be made to pay more for the foolishness of a minority of radges?

Okay what is a "responsible drinker"? Someone who just has a couple of pints at the weekend and maybe a bottle of red with the Sunday meal?

Or is it someone who gets bladdered at the weekend but doesn't turn aggressive or get depressed and hungover the next day? All good fun and laughter.

And this "minority of radges". To my mind it's a helluva big minority and they cause a heap of trouble and pain to society, not to mention expense to the NHS which we all pay for.

Speaking as, I hope, a responsible drinker I would be prepared to pay an extra pound on wine and beer if I seriously thought it would deter the radges from their pursuits.

It's not going to break the bank. After all, I don't spend that much on booze - being responsible like.

[whiskyhibby]

That's the problem......health professionals and police, politicians etc are happy to quote 'alcohol increases your chances of various cancers and diseases etc' BUT what is the increased risk? If your chance of bowel cancer is 1 in 100,000 and the risk increases by 50% ( although that Is way higher than the actual risk increase) then it means 1 additional person per 300,000, is that something to worry about?

Granted however that there is a problem With anti-social behaviour and drinking but the scare tactic they use is health based when the Actual statistics don't really show. A huge problem

[Jack]

The phrase that always intrigues me is "responsible drinkers". Why should responsible drinkers be made to pay more for the foolishness of a minority of radges?

Okay what is a "responsible drinker"? Someone who just has a couple of pints at the weekend and maybe a bottle of red with the Sunday meal?

Or is it someone who gets bladdered at the weekend but doesn't turn aggressive or get depressed and hungover the next day? All good fun and laughter.

And this "minority of radges". To my mind it's a helluva big minority and they cause a heap of trouble and pain to society, not to mention expense to the NHS which we all pay for.

Speaking as, I hope, a responsible drinker I would be prepared to pay an extra pound on wine and beer if I seriously thought it would deter the radges from their pursuits.

It's not going to break the bank. After all, I don't spend that much on booze - being responsible like.

I personally would describe someone whose drinking does not impinge on anyone else being responsible, you know what I mean, and anyone includes organisations such as the police and the NHS. You have the right to drink so long as you do so responsibly. Or you get pished but your mate looks after you – becomes responsible for you type of thing.

I think there's nothing wrong with your sentiments with paying the extra pound – its not a lot of money. Its not a lot of money to them either, even £2, £3 or £4 extra, and that’s why it wont make a difference, even if they drink 2 or 3 or 4 times as much as you. IMO!

[heretoday]

I personally would describe someone whose drinking does not impinge on anyone else being responsible, you know what I mean, and anyone includes organisations such as the police and the NHS. You have the right to drink so long as you do so responsibly. Or you get pished but your mate looks after you – becomes responsible for you type of thing.

I think there's nothing wrong with your sentiments with paying the extra pound – its not a lot of money. Its not a lot of money to them either, even £2, £3 or £4 extra, and that’s why it wont make a difference, even if they drink 2 or 3 or 4 times as much as you. IMO!

I realise that the extra pound or so won't make a hoot of difference to the dedicated drinkers in society. I would only hope that the extra revenue would go towards the NHS or whatever.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think the crux of the matter is that if you drink a responsible amount of alcohol you are not going to notice much difference in how much you are paying. Drink is too cheap in this country and things like BOGOF offers on cases of beer surely mean that people buy more alcohol than they should?

The SNP didn't just make this up, it's an evidence based policy with demonstrable improvements in public health. That said, these studies didn't factor in the British love affair with oblivion, so it will be interesting to see what results it has here.

From a personal observation, many people drink too much these days - particularly women. The numbers of people being admitted to hospitals at young ages with alcoholic dementia has increased significantly. We have to try something.

[magpie1892]

Medical professionals, emergency services and all sorts of civic, legal and statutory body representatives are fully for it. I wonder what it is in the plans that makes the opposition parties think differently?

Friend of mine from the North East, working as a GP in Edinburgh thinks it will make absolutely no difference and I would tend to agree.

If hospital admissions (as per the Canadian bollocks) were price related then everyone in Spain (one litre of own brand 12% abv red wine in El Corte Ingles: c.50p) would be in hospital, same in Italy and, to a slightly lesser extent, France. And so on and so forth. I've not heard a convincing argument to explain why Spaniards aren't all pissed, all the time with bevvy at that price.

It's an attempted quick fix which will achieve nothing. (One aspect of) the problem is the attitude to alcohol in this country, not the price. Typical politicians, they've no ****ing clue about anything. Reverse midas touch with examples too numerous to list here.

[Leicester Fan]

I'd think this would only really effect supermarkets as drink in pub is obviously more expensive. If that's the case then I think it's a great idea. I hope we get this in England.

[Future17]

Medical professionals, emergency services and all sorts of civic, legal and statutory body representatives are fully for it. I wonder what it is in the plans that makes the opposition parties think differently?


Friend of mine from the North East, working as a GP in Edinburgh thinks it will make absolutely no difference and I would tend to agree.

If hospital admissions (as per the Canadian bollocks) were price related then everyone in Spain (one litre of own brand 12% abv red wine in El Corte Ingles: c.50p) would be in hospital, same in Italy and, to a slightly lesser extent, France. And so on and so forth. I've not heard a convincing argument to explain why Spaniards aren't all pissed, all the time with bevvy at that price.

It's an attempted quick fix which will achieve nothing. (One aspect of) the problem is the attitude to alcohol in this country, not the price. Typical politicians, they've no ****ing clue about anything. Reverse midas touch with examples too numerous to list here.

One aspect of the problem is attitude, another aspect is price. This legislation will address the latter aspect and work is being done to address the former.

I suppose we should defer to your superior knowledge on this one though as the "typical politicians" only rely on public consultations and the opinion of experts (as described by Steakbake), whereas you have conducted an in-depth study of one person - your mate. :rolleyes:

[GlesgaeHibby]

We need to try something, and minimum pricing is backed by health professionals so it seems like a good place to start. I'm fed up of hearing the labour party bleat on about minimum pricing being a bad thing and opposing it without putting a policy/idea on the table on how they would tackle our drink problem. Instead of blindly opposing it would be good if all the opposition parties could work with the SNP to bring ideas and potential solutions to the table so we can put together a strong alcohol bill to tackle Scotland's problem with booze.

[lucky]

Can't see it happening as it could be deemed illegal under European law. If it has to happen I would rather the extra money was brought back into the publicpurse and spent alcohol education and the NHS. Giving more profit to supermarkets is a crazy plan

[Posh Swanny]

Presumably the only things affected will be the big BOGOF deals, 3 litres of White Lightning for £2.99 and 1 litre of Tesco Value vodka for £4.99. I'd very surprised if many/any of the more mainstream drinks aren't already above the proposed minimum so the so-called 'responsible' drinkers won't be affected anyway, despite the spin coming from the booze industry.

[RyeSloan]

Presumably the only things affected will be the big BOGOF deals, 3 litres of White Lightning for £2.99 and 1 litre of Tesco Value vodka for £4.99. I'd very surprised if many/any of the more mainstream drinks aren't already above the proposed minimum so the so-called 'responsible' drinkers won't be affected anyway, despite the spin coming from the booze industry.

But remember the unit price will be be set by the government...lets be honest this minimum price is never going to go down once it's introduced.

It will be set at a level that on introduction will be deemed acceptable by most as it will only impact a small amount of sales (what's the point then!)...then as it does bugger all to solve the problem it was meant to the unit price will be hiked then hiked then hiked until before we know it we will be looking at Scandinavian prices, a massive black market that will feed cheap booze to exactly the portion of the population this minimum price is designed to hit and what's left of the pub trade being driven out of business.

[Speedy]

I may be wrong but I thought multibuy offers were already banned in Scotland.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I may be wrong but I thought multibuy offers were already banned in Scotland.

They are. The price of a multi pack of beer is set at the size of the multipack multiplied by the price of an individual can. So if 1 can of lager costs £1 a ten pack must cost at least £10, so you won't save by bulk buying. Of course, to get around this single cans are now going to be slightly larger in size than the multipack cans so supermarkets can still sell multipacks cheaper.

[Future17]

They are. The price of a multi pack of beer is set at the size of the multipack multiplied by the price of an individual can. So if 1 can of lager costs £1 a ten pack must cost at least £10, so you won't save by bulk buying. Of course, to get around this single cans are now going to be slightly larger in size than the multipack cans so supermarkets can still sell multipacks cheaper.

:agree:

Or, to be pedantic, multipack units will be slightly smaller in size. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

I may be wrong but I thought multibuy offers were already banned in Scotland.

Still 5% off in Tesco if you buy 6 bottles of wine.

[Scouse Hibee]

Anyone that thinks the drinking culture in Scotland is price led is very much mistaken.

[The_Exile]

Anyone that thinks the drinking culture in Scotland is price lead is very much mistaken.

Agree with this, but I'm right behind the minimum unit price, as I'm willing to see what, if any, difference it will make in the coming years, something ahs to be done, and this is as good a place to start as any.

It's ingrained into society up here, kids see their parent's get smashed, they get smashed, vicious circle, you can't change that with pricing, but again, willing to see how this new bill will progress matters.

[Beefster]

I love it when governments think they can legislate all of society's ills away. Nothing better than not having to take personal responsibility.

[Scouse Hibee]

Agree with this, but I'm right behind the minimum unit price, as I'm willing to see what, if any, difference it will make in the coming years, something ahs to be done, and this is as good a place to start as any.

It's ingrained into society up here, kids see their parent's get smashed, they get smashed, vicious circle, you can't change that with pricing, but again, willing to see how this new bill will progress matters.

To be honest I think that's a huge misconception. I have read several articles and the general answer from youths regarding why they drink to excess are along the lines off.

That's what everyone does.
We got out to get drunk not just to drink.

It's almost like following the latest fashion in their minds, to suggest that it comes from parents is wrong. Yes of course there will be cases of alcohol abuse in families creating the mindset but there are many different classes of society of youngsters involved in binge drinking, not examples set by their parents!!

[Future17]

Anyone that thinks the drinking culture in Scotland is price lead is very much mistaken.

I haven't seen anyone, including the Scottish Government or any political parties, suggesting that the drinking culture in Scotland is price led.

That doesn't mean we can't use the price aspect to help address the problem.

I worry about this "silver bullet" talk, as in "minimum alchohol pricing is not the silver bullet for Scotland's drink problems". IMO, anyone who thinks that there is a singular solution to such a serious, widespread and long-standing problem is, as SH puts it, very much mistaken.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Still 5% off in Tesco if you buy 6 bottles of wine.

In England it is but not in Scotland.

[magpie1892]

That doesn't mean we can't use the price aspect to help address the problem.

That's just it. 'My mate' who happens to be a GPm who works in a **** part of Edinburghm and deals with alcoholics every single day is of the opinion that problem drinkers will always get drink; it's the nature of addiction.

Price isn't going to make a difference. It's not part of the problem. Booze is far cheaper in Iberia - so their problems with alcohol should be worse than ours by some margin.

It doesn't stack up at all.

[lapsedhibee]

In England it is but not in Scotland.

Ah right, I must have bought before 1 October. Time flies (hic!)

[Future17]

That's just it. 'My mate' who happens to be a GPm who works in a **** part of Edinburghm and deals with alcoholics every single day is of the opinion that problem drinkers will always get drink; it's the nature of addiction.

Price isn't going to make a difference. It's not part of the problem. Booze is far cheaper in Iberia - so their problems with alcohol should be worse than ours by some margin.

It doesn't stack up at all.

You appear to be making the mistake of thinking that this legislation is purely to address problems with alcohol addiction. Addicts are only one group who cause, and suffer from, Scotland's problems with alcohol.

I don't think anyone is claiming that higher prices will cure alcoholism so I'm not sure why you, or your mate, are under that impression. Your friend, being a GP, should be able to tell you about the work that is being done to help those with alcohol addictions, albeit a lot more needs to be done in this area.

As a said in my previous post, price is only one aspect of the problem, but it is part of the problem. Your Iberia argument is a fair point, but only on price. It doesn't take account of all the other factors in the mix.

[Scouse Hibee]

You appear to be making the mistake of thinking that this legislation is purely to address problems with alcohol addiction. Addicts are only one group who cause, and suffer from, Scotland's problems with alcohol.

I don't think anyone is claiming that higher prices will cure alcoholism so I'm not sure why you, or your mate, are under that impression. Your friend, being a GP, should be able to tell you about the work that is being done to help those with alcohol addictions, albeit a lot more needs to be done in this area.

As a said in my previous post, price is only one aspect of the problem, but it is part of the problem. Your Iberia argument is a fair point, but only on price. It doesn't take account of all the other factors in the mix.

Is it though! Take the new licensing laws for instance, the objectives on which the new laws are based looked at tackling "irresponsible" drink promotions and so imposed the minimum time period of 72 hours for reduced prizes. Has this really made a difference to the other issues of antisocial behaviour, protecting children from harm etc? I recently asked the Police for some facts and figures on alcohol related crime within the city centre since the new licensing laws were introduced, I have good contacts within the Police who will ensure I get the relative information from their analysts, though it will take a bit of time. I await these figures with interest to see if the new licensing laws have had a positive impact.I really want them for training material if they are positive as I am keen to demonstrate the laws I preach are actually working!

[CropleyWasGod]

That's just it. 'My mate' who happens to be a GPm who works in a **** part of Edinburghm and deals with alcoholics every single day is of the opinion that problem drinkers will always get drink; it's the nature of addiction.

Price isn't going to make a difference. It's not part of the problem. Booze is far cheaper in Iberia - so their problems with alcohol should be worse than ours by some margin.

It doesn't stack up at all.

Mates, eh?

A friend of mine (who died last year) was one of the foremost researchers into alcohol-related issues in the UK. He was always the "talking head" that the media would go to for an opinion. As long as I've known him, he has been of the opinion (backed up by academic research, carried out by him and others) that, although education and societal attitudes are important, the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price.

Exhibit A:- http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Bristol-professor-likens-supermarkets-selling-cheap-booze-crack-dealers/story-11297570-detail/story.html

[Scouse Hibee]

Mates, eh?

A friend of mine (who died last year) was one of the foremost researchers into alcohol-related issues in the UK. He was always the "talking head" that the media would go to for an opinion. As long as I've known him, he has been of the opinion (backed up by academic research, carried out by him and others) that, although education and societal attitudes are important, the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price.

Exhibit A:- http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Bristol-professor-likens-supermarkets-selling-cheap-booze-crack-dealers/story-11297570-detail/story.html


That article seems to talk about teenagers going for cheap booze, nothing in there to convince me that the massive binge drinking culture will change because of a minimum price.

[CropleyWasGod]

That article seems to talk about teenagers going for cheap booze, nothing in there to convince me that the massive binge drinking culture will change because of a minimum price.

The point is that it's a long term issue. By getting teenagers into the habit of drinking heavily through cheap deals, we are storing up trouble for the future, in terms of their health and the cost to the rest of us. See also here:- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6348130/100000-will-die-in-next-decade-due-to-drinking.html

[The_Exile]

To be honest I think that's a huge misconception. I have read several articles and the general answer from youths regarding why they drink to excess are along the lines off.

That's what everyone does.
We got out to get drunk not just to drink.

It's almost like following the latest fashion in their minds, to suggest that it comes from parents is wrong. Yes of course there will be cases of alcohol abuse in families creating the mindset but there are many different classes of society of youngsters involved in binge drinking, not examples set by their parents!!

I disagree, respectively, I think that's the most important argument on this entire issue, the example you set to your kids is the first, last and everything.

I get that folk are impressionable at that age etc and tend to follow the crowd, but there's no excuse for acting like you're still wearing nappies and getting your erse changed for you. I genuinely have no idea how this problem can be fixed, to put it into context it's like looking at the SPL. It broke a long time ago, nothing much has changed in the past few decades, it's time someone grabbed it by the short and curly's and started giving it a shake, I'm not much of a
nationalist but I've got massive respect for the SNP for tackling this and actually taking a stand on it, shame on any other party for using this as some leverage for short term political advantage/gain. This is an issue where all parties should be on the same page and doing something about it now, rather than arguing for the next 10 years over which way is best.

[Speedy]

Ah right, I must have bought before 1 October. Time flies (hic!)

You might be right though.

It always takes a while for these things to be implemented properly and for some clarity around the rules.

I think 2 bottles of £4.99 wine for £8 deal or 3 crates of beer for £20 seem to be banned but I was in Morrisons today and it was £8 for 12 bottles of Miller and about £6 for 4 bottles of the same size.

It was the same when the licensing thing first came in and some pubs stopped student discount cards because of 'the new laws' but others kept them as they had been told they were allowed different price tiers

[Jack]

Mates, eh?

A friend of mine (who died last year) was one of the foremost researchers into alcohol-related issues in the UK. He was always the "talking head" that the media would go to for an opinion. As long as I've known him, he has been of the opinion (backed up by academic research, carried out by him and others) that, although education and societal attitudes are important, the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price.

Exhibit A:- http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Bristol-professor-likens-supermarkets-selling-cheap-booze-crack-dealers/story-11297570-detail/story.html

While I wouldn’t want to go against the medical experts suggesting price is the most important factor, I respectfully suggest availability is a major issue.

With [take away] booze being sold on virtually every street corner control over who gets it is nigh on impossible. Irresponsible retailers are all too common.

[magpie1892]

Mates, eh?

A friend of mine (who died last year) was one of the foremost researchers into alcohol-related issues in the UK. He was always the "talking head" that the media would go to for an opinion. As long as I've known him, he has been of the opinion (backed up by academic research, carried out by him and others) that, although education and societal attitudes are important, the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price.

Exhibit A:- http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Bristol-professor-likens-supermarkets-selling-cheap-booze-crack-dealers/story-11297570-detail/story.html

Exhibit B - price of litre box of wine in Spain: 60p and upwards.

'the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price' - patently not so.

[magpie1892]

The point is that it's a long term issue. By getting teenagers into the habit of drinking heavily through cheap deals, we are storing up trouble for the future, in terms of their health and the cost to the rest of us. See also here:- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6348130/100000-will-die-in-next-decade-due-to-drinking.html

That would be so if price drove consumption, but that argument is fallacious as shown by the price of booze in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France...

[The_Exile]

But the price argument is surely a non issue in these countries as it's socially unacceptable to be seen getting hammered, so you can sell a litre of house wine for a euro no bother as you know it's not going to be abused (no doubt there is alcohol abuse in these countries but not on such a huge scale).

You sell a litre of wine in this country for 60p and all hell would break loose, streets might be quieter at night though :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

But the price argument is surely a non issue in these countries as it's socially unacceptable to be seen getting hammered, so you can sell a litre of house wine for a euro no bother as you know it's not going to be abused (no doubt there is alcohol abuse in these countries but not on such a huge scale).

You sell a litre of wine in this country for 60p and all hell would break loose, streets might be quieter at night though :greengrin

Say's who? I see this line trotted out all of the time...I don't think it's accurate anymore and there is significant binge drinking on the continent as well.

Price is obviously as factor but I reckon alcohol is probably a pretty inelastic commodity. You also have to consider the fact that you don't need too much alcohol to get blootered, esp when you are young. So I think this 'minimum pricing' is only going to go one way...any improvement in alcohol abuse rates used to justify the policy and then used to push the minimum price ever higher OR no improvement in alcohol abuse rates used to justify the price is too low and then used to push the minimum price higher.

So yet more government intervention in our lives, yet more tax, more restrictive laws and yet more control....the SNP seem to have a desire to control the nation and it's inhabitants from the centre, the rather general and sweeping offences contained within the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Bill is another example....so much for 'Independence'

[Jack]

Exhibit B - price of litre box of wine in Spain: 60p and upwards.

'the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price' - patently not so.

Why go for the expensive stuff when there are so many cheaper brands? I found one at 39 cents a couple of months ago! :agree:

Bear in mind that in some areas of Spain they still have bodegas where you take along your own ‘bottle’. The traditional ones are about 10/20 litres IIRC and have wheels! Loose change is all you need to fill these up :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

That would be so if price drove consumption, but that argument is fallacious as shown by the price of booze in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France...

The argument is not fallacious when it is put by someone who had 40 years of research in the field.

[Future17]

Price is only one aspect of the problem, but it is part of the problem. Your Iberia argument is a fair point, but only on price. It doesn't take account of all the other factors in the mix.


Exhibit B - price of litre box of wine in Spain: 60p and upwards.

'the most important driver in bringing consumption of alcohol is price' - patently not so.


That would be so if price drove consumption, but that argument is fallacious as shown by the price of booze in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France...

It's possible for price to be the "most important driver" without it being the only driver. I'm sure you'll accept that there are a plethora of difference, both culturally and otherwise, between Scotland and the countries you mention.

Out of interest, do you believe that there is one, singular solution to Scotland's problems with alcohol?

[lapsedhibee]

The argument is not fallacious when it is put by someone who had 40 years of research in the field.

:hmmm: After about 40 years as the world's top scientist, Newton was devoting much of his time to arguing that base metals could be turned into gold.

[The_Exile]

:hmmm: After about 40 years as the world's top scientist, Newton was devoting much of his time to arguing that base metals could be turned into gold.

That was after he started using Magic Mushrooms and Acid though :agree:

[Future17]

That was after he started using Magic Mushrooms and Acid though :agree:

Shocking!!

How were they priced? :greengrin

[magpie1892]

The argument is not fallacious when it is put by someone who had 40 years of research in the field.

It has repeatedly been shown to be fallacious over a period of time well in excess of forty years.

Length of tenure does not bestow infallibility. 10-20 cents a bottle I learn above. If price drives consumption then, at this cost entry to the market, the entire Iberian peninsula is now, by your departed friend's argument, in the terminal stages of cirrhosis.

In a word - bollocks.

[magpie1892]

Why go for the expensive stuff when there are so many cheaper brands? I found one at 39 cents a couple of months ago! :agree:

Bear in mind that in some areas of Spain they still have bodegas where you take along your own ‘bottle’. The traditional ones are about 10/20 litres IIRC and have wheels! Loose change is all you need to fill these up :greengrin

I'd like to retire here.

[magpie1892]

It's possible for price to be the "most important driver" without it being the only driver. I'm sure you'll accept that there are a plethora of difference, both culturally and otherwise, between Scotland and the countries you mention.


I don't agree that it's possible for price to be the "most important driver". Not in a country where alcohol is legal. Price is certainly the most important driver of consumption in Saudi Arabia, where a bottle of Johnny Walker will set you back $250. But here? No.

Yes, there are huge cultural differences. The price part of the argument is shown to be flimsy at best so it's in the cultural differences - the attitudes towards drink and drinking styles - where you'll find some of the answers.


Out of interest, do you believe that there is one, singular solution to Scotland's problems with alcohol?

No. It's a many-headed beast. Price, though, is not relevant enough to justify ever higher taxes, again from the responsible majority, for, some medical professionals argue, zero net effect expected.

[Speedy]

The argument is not fallacious when it is put by someone who had 40 years of research in the field.

Is this statement not a fallacy? :greengrin

[magpie1892]

Is this statement not a fallacy? :greengrin

Oddly enough, I think so. I'm not sure 40 years experience in anything necessarily makes you an expert in anything.

The link between price and consumption is shown, worldwide, to be utter codswallop. Fallacy and fantasy.

Education is where you start, parallel to poverty. Alcohol-related deaths in Chelsea and Kensington are the lowest in the UK, yet the GDP/capita in the borough is among the highest, if not THE highest, in the UK. Unlimited opportunities to buy booze, yet not, apparently, taken. Why ever not? Got the money, so why not get pissed up?

When this legislation comes in, as it will, watch **** all changing and the responsible people that pay for this merry-go-round further out of pocket. Where's the money going to go? On cause or effect? I trust 'my mate' (oh, he's a GP that deals with alcohol-related issues every day, did I mention that?) to give me the truth from the coalface. Because I know him, that invalidates his argument, apparently.

Sick of having to confront these same ill-researched and infantile 'arguments'.

Will anyone (well, one person in particular) step up and tell me why, if price and consumption of alcohol are linked that the entire Iberian Peninsula is not constantly on the piss?

Give it up, you're talking ****.

[Future17]

The link between price and consumption is shown, worldwide, to be utter codswallop. Fallacy and fantasy.

Interesting. Where has this been "shown"?


I trust 'my mate' (oh, he's a GP that deals with alcohol-related issues every day, did I mention that?) to give me the truth from the coalface. Because I know him, that invalidates his argument, apparently.

I don't think anyone suggested that his point of view is invalid. However, you have only referred to his opinion with reference to alcohol addiction, which is only one part of the problem. It's also not really a fair comparison to weigh the one opinion of your mate, albeit he is medically-qualified to provide it, versus the mass of medically-qualified opinion supporting the legislation.


Sick of having to confront these same ill-researched and infantile 'arguments'.

Will anyone (well, one person in particular) step up and tell me why, if price and consumption of alcohol are linked that the entire Iberian Peninsula is not constantly on the piss?

Give it up, you're talking ****.

Fair enough. As I admitted in a previous post, your argument regards Iberia may have been valid and I couldn't comment as I simply didn't have any knowledge or experience on the subject.

However, having now spent some time looking into the matter, it turns out you're wrong. Binge-drinking in Spain, particularly amongst young people, is a very big problem apparently. Not only is the level of drinking on the rise, so are the consequences (which I would argue are the real reasons for introducing minimum pricing legislation) such as violence, other disorder and health concerns.

So, with this in mind, what are you basing your argument on? Or is your argument in fact "ill-researched and infantile"?

[magpie1892]

Interesting. Where has this been "shown"?



I don't think anyone suggested that his point of view is invalid. However, you have only referred to his opinion with reference to alcohol addiction, which is only one part of the problem. It's also not really a fair comparison to weigh the one opinion of your mate, albeit he is medically-qualified to provide it, versus the mass of medically-qualified opinion supporting the legislation.



Fair enough. As I admitted in a previous post, your argument regards Iberia may have been valid and I couldn't comment as I simply didn't have any knowledge or experience on the subject.

However, having now spent some time looking into the matter, it turns out you're wrong. Binge-drinking in Spain, particularly amongst young people, is a very big problem apparently. Not only is the level of drinking on the rise, so are the consequences (which I would argue are the real reasons for introducing minimum pricing legislation) such as violence, other disorder and health concerns.

So, with this in mind, what are you basing your argument on? Or is your argument in fact "ill-researched and infantile"?

Just briefly, that there is binge-drinking among Spanish youth is not surprising, but if price and consumption are related then, as I've said several times now, you would expect the entire country to be pissed all the time, where 10%+ bevvy is cheaper than a 1.5l bottle of water. That's not the case.