Sectarianism..

[hibbysam]

Just a quick wee question but tonight I said to my mate at the game that as soon as McCourt came on they would sing a song about him..

"Paddy McCourts Fenian Army"

Now if I called any of the "Fenians" id be lifted and given a ban and end up in court right, so does them singing it about there own set of supporters make it any less "Sectarian"?

[SouthamptonHibs]

who cares...let them sing want they want to sing!

police, government etc are helping **** the Scottish game.......it all adds to the atmosphere
As i've said before if we sang our hearts out every game we would not hear them....get over it, problem is! It is not what and how loud they are singing it is why the are singing! Easy answer They are winning because we are crap

[hibbysam]

who cares...let them sing want they want to sing!

police, government etc are helping **** the Scottish game.......it all adds to the atmosphere
As i've said before if we sang our hearts out every game we would not hear them....get over it, problem is! It is not what and how loud thet ar singing it is why the are singing! Easy answer They are winning because we are crap

Get off your high horse.. it was a simple question as I was generally interested in what the answer to that is.. is it classed as sectarianism or not.. they are winning because they pay millions more on both transfers and wages than us.. it wasn't even a thread about hibs winning or losing a game it was a question to see if someone had an answer not a smart arse comment.

[SouthamptonHibs]

Get off your high horse.. it was a simple question as I was generally interested in what the answer to that is.. is it classed as sectarianism or not.. they are winning because they pay millions more on both transfers and wages than us.. it wasn't even a thread about hibs winning or losing a game it was a question to see if someone had an answer not a smart arse comment.

HAve a word son! it was a cheap go again at the weegies..i don't care about it but if we had won no one honest no one would have noticed!

no high horse here just a bit of common sense! The problem ain't the other teams singing it's CC!

Have a think! Deary me......

[hibbysam]

HAve a word son! it was a cheap go again at the weegies..i don't care about it but if we had won no one honest no one would have noticed!

no high horse here just a bit of common sense! The problem ain't the other teams singing it's CC!

Have a think! Deary me......

"a cheap go again"? you might wanna explain the last time i had a "cheap go"

Im not for one second saying the problem with our team is other fans singing did I?

Although the last time I checked this was a messageboard and you are allowed to discuss points? or is a thread only valid if its a foul mouthed rant about how bad our team is and how CC has to go?

[SouthamptonHibs]

"a cheap go again"? you might wanna explain the last time i had a "cheap go"

Im not for one second saying the problem with our team is other fans singing did I?

Although the last time I checked this was a messageboard and you are allowed to discuss points? or is a thread only valid if its a foul mouthed rant about how bad our team is and how CC has to go?


Slow down...maybe it's the tone of your post ie your reply! Not wanting to have a go anyone that loves and goes and watches the Hibs needs respect...you are right you can respond and have some banter, but maybe it's the tone of the post!
Mind you it's sometimes hard to express a good discussion via mail hail hail no offence:wink:

[HKhibby]

The main problem is cc! and the present team performances in general!, but still shouldnt go unnoticed by that horrible weegie dirty lot that travel everywhere singing their vermon songs that the majority dont even understand what they are supposedly singing about! just handed down from generation to generation, as for Lennon! its just a disgrace to use the word manager with that guy!...always so hard done by...and everyone is against them including the media!..he should wake up to what he is! just the typical old firm being the old firm! say one thing tho...dont like him...but at least you can understand Mcoist!

[.Louise.]

Was it not 'green and white' army??

[.Sean.]

Definately 'Fenian Army'. Strange how if I was to call one of the Plastics fenian **** they'd react entirely different though, eh?

[steakbake]

If anyone follows Graham Speirs on twitter, you'll see the OF rivalry for what it mostly is. A perpetual petty cycle of pointing out what the rival is singing or doing and revelling in the outrage and conspiracy of unfairness that goes with it.

I don't like the singing. I despair religious sectarianism because its as logical as arguing about whether Santa uses reindeer or caribou to power his imaginary sledge. The police and government don't like it either and to be fair have actually tried to do something about it. BUT if several thousand ****bags want to be defined along political and religious grounds because of the team they support, then it's going to be hard to do anything about it. Getting hysterical because of what they are doing is just getting boring.

I expect over the next couple of weeks there will be the annual poppy/remembrance day outrage and whether Lennon is wearing a wee paper flower or if the famously dickish Celtic away support can manage to keep quiet for a minute. It will make some feel morally superior where we clearly cannot be superior in what it is we're actually rivals at: football.

It's just a pantomime.

[yeezus.]

Yeah Septic fans do sing that song. It's ridiculous, the guy plays for Northern Ireland.

I guess you could say that they were saying it in the same sense some black people say the "n" word.

And no, a Hibs fan couldn't be lifted for saying "fenian" - WE HAVE IRISH HISTORY TOO REMEMBER? Just because we don't sing IRA songs on a Saturday afternoon doesn't make us any less Irish.

[portyfelly]

Just a quick wee question but tonight I said to my mate at the game that as soon as McCourt came on they would sing a song about him..

"Paddy McCourts Fenian Army"

Now if I called any of the "Fenians" id be lifted and given a ban and end up in court right, so does them singing it about there own set of supporters make it any less "Sectarian"?

Ahh I thought they were singing ' farm foods freezer foods army' infact i had difficulty making out the words of any of their songs.. ..................................they were loud but inarticulate..
first half was good though:na na:

[CropleyWasGod]

A recurrent theme on my part.....

The word "fenian" doesn't mean Catholic, despite its corruption as such. The Fenians were a politically-based Republican movement in Ireland, and as such had no great religious basis. Many Protestants, being committed to Irish independence, were Fenians.

So, m'lud, I submit that it is not sectarian to use the word.

Ya orange *******.

Findlay, D.

[hibbysam]

cheers for clearing that up CWG, as I said the original post was a question as seriously if I stood on that walkway at the front of the east and shouted 'gtf ya bunch of fenian *****' or something along those lines I guarantee I'd be lifted :)

[CropleyWasGod]

cheers for clearing that up CWG, as I said the original post was a question as seriously if I stood on that walkway at the front of the east and shouted 'gtf ya bunch of fenian *****' or something along those lines I guarantee I'd be lifted :)

You would probably be lifted due to the ignorance of the steward/police. However, I'm sure a decent lawyer would have a go on the grounds I mentioned.

That said, if you shouted that, meaning to be offensive , I would suggest that you are morally guilty. Discuss? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

You would probably be lifted due to the ignorance of the steward/police. However, I'm sure a decent lawyer would have a go on the grounds I mentioned.

That said, if you shouted that, meaning to be offensive , I would suggest that you are morally guilty. Discuss? :confused:

The decent lawyer wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Language is defined by its usage, not its etymology. Terrific originally meant something that causes terror. "******" is unquestionably derived from the latin word for black. In Scotland (esp west central) fenian is a pejorative word for a Roman Catholic.

[CropleyWasGod]

The decent lawyer wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Language is defined by its usage, not its etymology. Terrific originally meant something that causes terror. "******" is unquestionably derived from the latin word for black. In Scotland (esp west central) fenian is a pejorative word for a Roman Catholic.

..... hence my comment about the intention, which for me is always one of the keys to whether something is offensive or not.

[Keith_M]

If somebody shouts "Ya Hibs *********", they are undoubtedly being racist!


Hibs, as we all know, is short for Hibernian, meaning a native of Ireland. Therefore, they are, in effect, shouting Ya Irish ********.



Discuss.




:devil:

[CropleyWasGod]

If somebody shouts "Ya Hibs *********", they are undoubtedly being racist!


Hibs, as we all know, is short for Hibernian, meaning a native of Ireland. Therefore, they are, in effect, shouting Ya Irish ********.



Discuss.




:devil:

The fact that there a few different (and valid) opinions on this, and the many previous, threads says to me that this is an area that is going to keep the Courts busy, and legal minds exercised, for quite a while. There will be Case Law, I'm sure, to guide the Courts on what is "offensive", but we probably need more on the sectarian aspect.

[Mikeystewart]

Talked to a friend who is a celtic fan today, he says its all about the context and agrees the new legislation is ridiculous as it makes no sense as it doesn't differentiate between using the word in a positive or negative context.

Edit: The term F****n was coined by John O'Mahony, who founded an irish republican group in America, I interpret the word as, Irish/American migrant who wants an independant Ireland. - If Wikipedia is to be believed

[Big Frank]

Talked to a friend who is a celtic fan today, he says its all about the context and agrees the new legislation is ridiculous as it makes no sense as it doesn't differentiate between using the word in a positive or negative context.

Thanks for that.

Could you tell your friend, who is a celtic fan, to go and wash himself with some soap.

Cheers

[Mikeystewart]

Thanks for that.

Could you tell your friend, who is a celtic fan, to go and wash himself with some soap.

Cheers

Good input :aok:

Edit: he says sarcastically, just encase someone thinks he agrees.

[Big Frank]

Good input :aok:

Edit: he says sarcastically, just encase someone thinks he agrees.

Cheers. Thought so myself :wink:

Anyhoo, whats your friend, who is a celtic supporter, views on the EU deploying 2trillion euros and wiping 50% of Greeces' debt? Does he think this was the correct course, or could this create an even worse crisis?

[superfurryhibby]

Talked to a friend who is a celtic fan today, he says its all about the context and agrees the new legislation is ridiculous as it makes no sense as it doesn't differentiate between using the word in a positive or negative context.

Edit: The term F****n was coined by John O'Mahony, who founded an irish republican group in America, I interpret the word as, Irish/American migrant who wants an independant Ireland. - If Wikipedia is to be believed

The Fenian Cycle ( /ˈfiːniən/; Irish: an Fhiannaíocht),[1] also referred to as the Ossianic Cycle /ˌɒʃiˈænɪk/ after its narrator Oisín, is a body of prose and verse centering on the exploits of the mythical hero Fionn mac Cumhaill and his warriors the Fianna. It is one of the four major cycles of Irish mythology along with the Mythological Cycle, the Ulster Cycle, and the Historical Cycle. Put in chronological order, the Fenian cycle is the third cycle, between the Ulster and Historical cycles. The cycle also contains stories about other Fianna members, including Caílte, Diarmuid, Oisín's son Oscar, and Fionn's enemy, Goll mac Morna.

The word has origins much older than that. The mythology of the Fianna is reckoned to be taking place at around the time of Christ.

I don't think the current legislative drive is the way to address sectariansim in Scotland. We could maybe start with the state stopping funding or promoting one version of religion/superstition via the education system. If our traditional political parties also ceased their tolerance of the bias, as so clearly demonstrated in the toon councils of Lanarkshire, this would also help.

[Mikeystewart]

The Fenian Cycle ( /ˈfiːniən/; Irish: an Fhiannaíocht),[1] also referred to as the Ossianic Cycle /ˌɒʃiˈænɪk/ after its narrator Oisín, is a body of prose and verse centering on the exploits of the mythical hero Fionn mac Cumhaill and his warriors the Fianna. It is one of the four major cycles of Irish mythology along with the Mythological Cycle, the Ulster Cycle, and the Historical Cycle. Put in chronological order, the Fenian cycle is the third cycle, between the Ulster and Historical cycles. The cycle also contains stories about other Fianna members, including Caílte, Diarmuid, Oisín's son Oscar, and Fionn's enemy, Goll mac Morna.

The word has origins much older than that. The mythology of the Fianna is reckoned to be taking place at around the time of Christ.

I don't think the current legislative drive is the way to address sectariansim in Scotland. We could maybe start with the state stopping funding or promoting one version of religion/superstition via the education system. If our traditional political parties also ceased their tolerance of the bias, as so clearly demonstrated in the toon councils of Lanarkshire, this would also help.


:faf: :top marks

[Mikeystewart]

Cheers. Thought so myself :wink:

Anyhoo, whats your friend, who is a celtic supporter, views on the EU deploying 2trillion euros and wiping 50% of Greeces' debt? Does he think this was the correct course, or could this create an even worse crisis?

dunno didn't ask him....

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Irrespective of where the word comes from, whoever uses it towards you is a half-wit and would not have the intellectual grasp to explain its' origins.

[GieTheBaTaeReilly]

I think the OP has a very good point.

If the sectarianism involved is of the "you (the opposition) are a bunch of (adjectives)" and the opposition respond with "we're proud to be (adjectives)" then there's no real conflict (technically).

That's also a problem when teams' supporters get involved in self-parody or teams' supporters use irony.

To the case in point, is there a difference between "oo ah up the RA" and "eff-off you effin IRA effers". There probably is in moral terms, but if the guy on the moral high ground has had a couple of bevvies and is being a bit loud, then he might be a target for an over-zealous authority.

It's a fine line and I think thats hat the OP was tring to say.

M

[GieTheBaTaeReilly]

And in other news, the use of "******" is a great example. Compare Huggy Bear out of Starsky n Hutch high fiving Snoop Doggy Dogg and saying "Yo ******" and (say) John Terry (allegedly) calling an opposition player a ******.

It's a fine line, but I may be repeating myself

M

[nonshinyfinish]

And in other news, the use of "******" is a great example. Compare Huggy Bear out of Starsky n Hutch high fiving Snoop Doggy Dogg and saying "Yo ******" and (say) John Terry (allegedly) calling an opposition player a ******.

It's a fine line, but I may be repeating myself

M

Is that a fine line? I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that one case is racial abuse and one case isn't.

And anyway, as I understand it, the allegation is that Terry called Ferdinand a 'black c***', which pretty much removes the possibility of it being a term of endearment.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Yeah Septic fans do sing that song. It's ridiculous, the guy plays for Northern Ireland.I guess you could say that they were saying it in the same sense some black people say the "n" word.And no, a Hibs fan couldn't be lifted for saying "fenian" - WE HAVE IRISH HISTORY TOO REMEMBER? Just because we don't sing IRA songs on a Saturday afternoon doesn't make us any less Irish. FFS mate how many different threads are you going to mention the Irish stuff in?We are NOT Irish, we are a Scottish team formed by Irish immigrants.

[GieTheBaTaeReilly]

Is that a fine line? I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that one case is racial abuse and one case isn't.

And anyway, as I understand it, the allegation is that Terry called Ferdinand a 'black c***', which pretty much removes the possibility of it being a term of endearment.

What I meant was it's the context of the words usage that's the issue not the word itself. Things aren't as clear in the sectarian discussion as they are in the JT case (I wasn't aware of what the detail of the allegation was), and yes that maybe was a bad example in hindsight.

Still thuink the OP has raised a good point tho.

M

[yeezus.]

cheers for clearing that up CWG, as I said the original post was a question as seriously if I stood on that walkway at the front of the east and shouted 'gtf ya bunch of fenian *****' or something along those lines I guarantee I'd be lifted :)


You would not be lifed. Hibernia means Ireland. I would say Hibs fans have a right to say the word if they want. Surely not that daft though

[yeezus.]

FFS mate how many different threads are you going to mention the Irish stuff in?We are NOT Irish, we are a Scottish team formed by Irish immigrants.

I didn't say we were Irish. But the way some of you lot go on, you would think we were formed by English rugby players! Learn a bit of history and stop dilluting a major part of our clubs founders!

[marinello59]

I didn't say we were Irish. But the way some of you lot go on, you would think we were formed by English rugby players! Learn a bit of history and stop dilluting a major part of our clubs founders!

Dearie me. Most of us are more than comfortable with our clubs roots and well aware of our history. Perhaps you need to do some reading on our past or quit trying to run with some immature agenda of your own.

[Scouse Hibee]

I didn't say we were Irish. But the way some of you lot go on, you would think we were formed by English rugby players! Learn a bit of history and stop dilluting a major part of our clubs founders!


Are you for real or just some immature idiot on the wind up? Serious question by the way!!!

[Iggy Pope]

Just a quick wee question but tonight I said to my mate at the game that as soon as McCourt came on they would sing a song about him..

"Paddy McCourts Fenian Army"

Now if I called any of the "Fenians" id be lifted and given a ban and end up in court right, so does them singing it about there own set of supporters make it any less "Sectarian"?

Dearie dearie and thrice dearie me.

Call anyone an anything ******* and chances are you're being offensive. Unless the prefix is sexy of course! All about context.

The Celtic contingent were happy to sing about themselves a 'fenians' as that's what they are happy to think of themselves as and are obviously proud of being so. Amazed that this should be a mystery to us Hibernian soldiers.

If you find the word 'fenian' sectarian or even controversial (as long as it's not followed by the dreaded '*******' of course), then can I suggest a library as a starting point?

[hibbysam]

Dearie dearie and thrice dearie me.

Call anyone an anything ******* and chances are you're being offensive. Unless the prefix is sexy of course! All about context.

The Celtic contingent were happy to sing about themselves a 'fenians' as that's what they are happy to think of themselves as and are obviously proud of being so. Amazed that this should be a mystery to us Hibernian soldiers.

If you find the word 'fenian' sectarian or even controversial (as long as it's not followed by the dreaded '*******' of course), then can I suggest a library as a starting point?

Did i once say i find it sectarian? If im being honest i have no clue and dont really care what it means or where it came from.. I just know a lot of people who get offended by being called it and know that Celtic fans more than most have a good rant at being called a "fenian"..

[CFC]

I didn't say we were Irish. But the way some of you lot go on, you would think we were formed by English rugby players! Learn a bit of history and stop dilluting a major part of our clubs founders! Thats a funny image you gave me there, will carling in a hibs strip!

[Chuck Rhoades]

It would be great if people could learn the meaning of sectarianism and then understand that meaning before spouting off after bad results against Celtic. Although I do not agree or support it, the majority of what Celtic fans sing is not sectarian. Hence why there aren't banning orders against them and why the Green Brigade have threatened to take the club to court if they do pursue banning orders. The authorities wouldn't stand a chance against the fans in this argument.

[poolman]

HAve a word son! it was a cheap go again at the weegies..i don't care about it but if we had won no one honest no one would have noticed!

no high horse here just a bit of common sense! The problem ain't the other teams singing it's CC!

Have a think! Deary me......


Aye, deary me right enough

The OP starts a thread with a perfectly reasonable question on a FOOTBALL message board and gets hounded because you dont like it :rolleyes:

Maybe we should all PM you first if we're thinking of starting a thread and ask your permission first :rolleyes:

[Iggy Pope]

Just a quick wee question but tonight I said to my mate at the game that as soon as McCourt came on they would sing a song about him..

"Paddy McCourts Fenian Army"

Now if I called any of the "Fenians" id be lifted and given a ban and end up in court right, so does them singing it about there own set of supporters make it any less "Sectarian"?


Did i once say i find it sectarian? If im being honest i have no clue and dont really care what it means or where it came from.. I just know a lot of people who get offended by being called it and know that Celtic fans more than most have a good rant at being called a "fenian"..

:wtf: How about the last line of your OP?

And if you don't have a clue what it means why throw the word about, or indeed start the thread in the first place if you don't care about it either????????