Gaddafi captured...

[steakbake]

Allegedly, Gaddafi has been captured in Sirte. Wouldn't fancy being him at all...

[Betty Boop]

Allegedly, Gaddafi has been captured in Sirte. Wouldn't fancy being him at all...

Shot dead according to Al Jazeera.

[hibsbollah]

I hope hes not summarily executed and is instead brought before the international criminal court. He will have a few interesting stories to tell. Lots of people will want him dead before that happens though...

[McHibby]

I hope hes not summarily executed and is instead brought before the international criminal court. He will have a few interesting stories to tell. Lots of people will want him dead before that happens though...

Aye, probably our Government too no doubt....
Still seems a bit confused the now though, some reports saying he's been shot in the legs but is alive, others saying he dead.

[steakbake]

Bet our government prefers him dead.

Ah well - another one exits the world.

[Betty Boop]

Guardian has image of Gadaffi's capture on a mobile phone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/oct/20/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live

[McHibby]

Guardian has image of Gadaffi's capture on a mobile phone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/oct/20/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live

He's looking a bit peaky

[Betty Boop]

He's looking a bit peaky

In his death throes.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Wouldnae be surprised if Harry Pearce was behind this!

[Future17]

I'm just looking forward to when Scooby Doo and Chums catch up with him and remove that ridiculous mask.

[hibsbollah]

I'm just looking forward to when Scooby Doo and Chums catch up with him and remove that ridiculous mask. It'll be the guy who used to run the creepy fairground.

[steakbake]

It'll be the guy who used to run the creepy fairground.

Old Man Withers?

[lucky]

Wouldnae be surprised if Harry Pearce was behind this!
Many a true thing said in jest.

[khib70]

Many a true thing said in jest.
Nonsense

He's received his just deserts from the people he oppressed and terrorised for years, ending up in a drain like the rat he was

Good riddance

[Hibs Class]

NonsenseHe's received his just deserts from the people he oppressed and terrorised for years, ending up in a drain like the rat he wasGood riddance Agree. The world is a better place tonight with him not in it.

[lyonhibs]

Nonsense

He's received his just deserts from the people he oppressed and terrorised for years, ending up in a drain like the rat he was

Good riddance

Absolutely.

Karma's a bitch eh??

[Future17]

Nonsense

He's received his just deserts from the people he oppressed and terrorised for years, ending up in a drain like the rat he was

Good riddance

True, but it'll still be interesting to hear the details as he appears to have been captured and then killed.

Summary executions are a type of war crime are they not?

[bighairyfaeleith]

True, but it'll still be interesting to hear the details as he appears to have been captured and then killed.

Summary executions are a type of war crime are they not?

Yes but I think it's a case of certain war crimes are ok, don't get me wrong I won't shed any tears for Gaddafi and he did deserve to die but I do wonder about how much reporting of what the anti gaddafi's are doing is actually being reported.

[Hibs Class]

Minute's Slience at Parkhead on Sunday. Very good. No doubt accompanied by a bed sheet extolling Gadaffi, thus perpetuating their unique combination of revolutionary dyslexia.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

NonsenseHe's received his just deserts from the people he oppressed and terrorised for years, ending up in a drain like the rat he wasGood riddance That cannae be right, I thought the CIA had Harry held captive! I'm told we'll find out what really went on at 2158 on Monday night!

[Pete]

I feel a little bit uneasy about this whole thing. People celebrating around the bloody body of a man who bas been executed.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband say they are proud of Britain's role in all of this. I'm certainly not. Don't we have enough to worry about before helping groups of rebels overthrow governments?

The line that was repeatedly trotted out was that he was "killing his own people". These "people" were trying to overthrow his government using force and these "people" were encouraged and assisted by people with vested interests.

No doubt in the future we will be using up resources to help overthrow the regimes in Iran and Saudi Arabia. After all they "kill their own people".
I still don't understand why other regimes who "killed their own people" were left alone...like Sudan and Zimbabwe. In fact, it was "our people" they were killing and raping in Zimbabwe.

This has been a long drawn out assassination and as a result there will be an unknown quantity in power...probably an Islamist group. Well done. People can pat themselves on the back all they want and be proud but they haven't done it in my name.

In the distant future when people are looking back at our warmongering foreign policy since 2003 I hope that they realise that some of us were embarrassed and didn't agree with it one bit. Mind you they will probably use that period to highlight and study the blatant double standards.

[RyeSloan]

I feel a little bit uneasy about this whole thing. People celebrating around the bloody body of a man who bas been executed.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband say they are proud of Britain's role in all of this. I'm certainly not. Don't we have enough to worry about before helping groups of rebels overthrow governments?

The line that was repeatedly trotted out was that he was "killing his own people". These "people" were trying to overthrow his government using force and these "people" were encouraged and assisted by people with vested interests.

No doubt in the future we will be using up resources to help overthrow the regimes in Iran and Saudi Arabia. After all they "kill their own people".
I still don't understand why other regimes who "killed their own people" were left alone...like Sudan and Zimbabwe. In fact, it was "our people" they were killing and raping in Zimbabwe.

This has been a long drawn out assassination and as a result there will be an unknown quantity in power...probably an Islamist group. Well done. People can pat themselves on the back all they want and be proud but they haven't done it in my name.

In the distant future when people are looking back at our warmongering foreign policy since 2003 I hope that they realise that some of us were embarrassed and didn't agree with it one bit. Mind you they will probably use that period to highlight and study the blatant double standards.

The official line is that the action in Libya was supported by a UN resolution and importantly the arab world. It is also deemed pretty certain that there would have been an abslolute massacre in Bengahazi if the world, via the UN resolution, had not stepped in.

While I sympathise with some of your comments what would you have said if the world had stood by and watched as tens of thousands of Libyans were slaughtered by a dictator desperate to cling to power. Would you have been happy to stand idle and let another Srebrenica happen right in front of our eyes?

There is also the quesiton of just because it's not possible to get UN agreement or to intervene in all similar situations does that then mean we should do nothing even when we can?

[Big Ed]

The official line is that the action in Libya was supported by a UN resolution and importantly the arab world. It is also deemed pretty certain that there would have been an abslolute massacre in Bengahazi if the world, via the UN resolution, had not stepped in.

While I sympathise with some of your comments what would you have said if the world had stood by and watched as tens of thousands of Libyans were slaughtered by a dictator desperate to cling to power. Would you have been happy to stand idle and let another Srebrenica happen right in front of our eyes?

There is also the quesiton of just because it's not possible to get UN agreement or to intervene in all similar situations does that then mean we should do nothing even when we can?

I haven’t heard an accurate figure of how many people have died since the uprising, but unconfirmed figures being bandied about range from 25,000 – 50,000. Does that constitute a massacre?
The British and French convinced the UN to agree to a preventative no fly zone over Libya and the next thing you know, we’re bombing the place to bits. Any prospect of getting the Chinese or Russians to back anything similar in, say Syria, are out the window after that stunt.
It’s pats on the backs all round:
Dictator who wouldn’t play ball with our oil companies removed – check.
Said Dictator captured and killed before he can make any accusations in a court of law – check.
No NATO casualties – check.
Rebel leaders, of whom we know nothing other than the fact that they hated Gaddafi, taking advantage of a power vacuum – errrrrrrrr.

[Dashing Bob S]

I haven’t heard an accurate figure of how many people have died since the uprising, but unconfirmed figures being bandied about range from 25,000 – 50,000. Does that constitute a massacre?
The British and French convinced the UN to agree to a preventative no fly zone over Libya and the next thing you know, we’re bombing the place to bits. Any prospect of getting the Chinese or Russians to back anything similar in, say Syria, are out the window after that stunt.
It’s pats on the backs all round:
Dictator who wouldn’t play ball with our oil companies removed – check.
Said Dictator captured and killed before he can make any accusations in a court of law – check.
No NATO casualties – check.
Rebel leaders, of whom we know nothing other than the fact that they hated Gaddafi, taking advantage of a power vacuum – errrrrrrrr.

Not so sure this is a good thing, as HB said above. Our leaders in the west have previously supported this nutcase, along with several of his ilk. They always take a bullet before they can spill the beans on our power brokers. As you say about the rebel leaders, our leaders are probably courting another power-crazed psychopath as this goes down, whom we'll tout as a 'true leader' and 'statesman' until he crosses them.

[Betty Boop]

I feel a little bit uneasy about this whole thing. People celebrating around the bloody body of a man who bas been executed.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband say they are proud of Britain's role in all of this. I'm certainly not. Don't we have enough to worry about before helping groups of rebels overthrow governments?

The line that was repeatedly trotted out was that he was "killing his own people". These "people" were trying to overthrow his government using force and these "people" were encouraged and assisted by people with vested interests.

No doubt in the future we will be using up resources to help overthrow the regimes in Iran and Saudi Arabia. After all they "kill their own people".
I still don't understand why other regimes who "killed their own people" were left alone...like Sudan and Zimbabwe. In fact, it was "our people" they were killing and raping in Zimbabwe.

This has been a long drawn out assassination and as a result there will be an unknown quantity in power...probably an Islamist group. Well done. People can pat themselves on the back all they want and be proud but they haven't done it in my name.

In the distant future when people are looking back at our warmongering foreign policy since 2003 I hope that they realise that some of us were embarrassed and didn't agree with it one bit. Mind you they will probably use that period to highlight and study the blatant double standards.

:top marks Great post Peter. A horrible act of barbarism, but then we shouldn't be surprised, as the NTC is choc full of members of the old regime. Strange that the revolution that was about bringing human rights, democracy and the rule of law to the Libyan people, should sink so low. It doesn't look good for the future IMO.

[Beefster]

I feel a little bit uneasy about this whole thing. People celebrating around the bloody body of a man who bas been executed.

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the entire situation, that's where I am.

People being tortured and executed without due process (let's be honest, that's exactly what happened to Gaddafi, his son and a few others) and dead bodies being dragged through the streets and celebrated over just isn't right. The fact that France, the UK and the US don't appear to have, at least, commented on it is sickening IMO.

[IndieHibby]

My feelings over someone like Gaddaffi are the same as the next person - he was a sadistic, murderous ****bag who deserved every last second of the treatment meted out to him.

What is less deserved is the lack of justice for those thousands of people who have been wronged by him. They will now not benefit from the due process that a trial would have provided. Those who executed him have to live with this consequence of their decision.

This does not necessarily mean that they were wrong. Many civilians/rebels lost their lives fighting the fanatical and "tribal" element of his support - if he had remained alive then it would have provided a prize worth fighting for and a continuing catalyst for conflict. However, when you have known nothing in your life other than oppression, to suddenly find yourself standing over your nemesis, with the power to exact revenge and a short time in which to make the decision, you'd have to be a saint not to pull the trigger.

The only people with the right to judge this are Libyans. Not us.

As things stand, there will be no real difficulty in preventing Gaddaffi loyalists causing problems. Indeed, I bet they will be keeping quiet now that he is dead, and crucially, that they know he is dead. No fuel for conspiracy here.

Let's not forget - this all started when Gadaffi started to brutally oppress peaceful demonstrations. He could have chosen another path, but he chose the path of violence. Remember also, that initially, the protests erupted all over the country, even in Tripoli, only to be quickly suffocated with military effort.

Fast forward and there is a moment that, without intervention, would have led to the massacre of the population of Benghazi. For anyone to draw a parallel between this and the fighting that followed to resist Gadaffi is, as I see it, petty and irrelevant moral relativism.

[IndieHibby]

I feel a little bit uneasy about this whole thing. People celebrating around the bloody body of a man who bas been executed.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband say they are proud of Britain's role in all of this. I'm certainly not. Don't we have enough to worry about before helping groups of rebels overthrow governments?.

Do you mean that as we are currently experiencing economic difficulty, we should ignore the plight of a population about to be massacred? How would you judge someone who had the ability to help you, but 'turned the other cheek'?


The line that was repeatedly trotted out was that he was "killing his own people". These "people" were trying to overthrow his government using force and these "people" were encouraged and assisted by people with vested interests.

I think your definition of government needs modifying. And, how did the whole thing start? An armed insurrection? Or, largely peaceful street protests?


No doubt in the future we will be using up resources to help overthrow the regimes in Iran and Saudi Arabia. After all they "kill their own people".
I still don't understand why other regimes who "killed their own people" were left alone...like Sudan and Zimbabwe. In fact, it was "our people" they were killing and raping in Zimbabwe.

1. We had the means and the will to support in Libya. You cannot seriously be suggesting that we provoke a thirld world war (by attacking Iran)? Surely not!
2. There is a widely known and accepted view amongst governments across Africa that western (especially British) military intervention in sub-saharan Africa is not acceptable to the AU. So no, you can't compare Sudan or Zimbabwe here.

3. When you say "our" people, what do you mean? White people?


This has been a long drawn out assassination and as a result there will be an unknown quantity in power...probably an Islamist group. Well done. People can pat themselves on the back all they want and be proud but they haven't done it in my name.

As things stand, there will be democratic elections within a year. A constitution in 8 months and an interim government within (I think) a month. So yeah, there may be an Islamic Party there, after all, it is an Islamic country. That is what happens in a democracy.

Somehow I doubt, have just given so much for freedom, Libyans would give it away with a vote.

[Betty Boop]

What a hard faced bitch Hilary Clinton is.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29472.htm#idc-cover

[hibsbollah]

I tend to agree with a lot of indiehibby's post. Even before the uprising we know that Gaddafis regime gouged out the eyes and pulled out the fingernails of his political opponents, including civil rights campaigners and anyone else who defied his absolute power. I dont feel comfortable morally judging a libyan standing over him with a gun, who may have had relatives with eyes gouged or fingernails pulled, who decides to pull the trigger.But if his execution was ordered by the interim government, or encouraged by western govts who didnt want him to have his day in court, thats a whole different thing and far more serious. Shooting unarmed prisoners shouldnt be what governments do. The lack of dignity in his death, the parading of his body in a freezer in the streets and the youtube footage is disgusting. And the likes of Clinton and David Cameron are demeaning themselves by seeming to enjoy the spectacle like a couple of Romans in modern day Carthage.

[IndieHibby]

But if his execution was ordered by the interim government, or encouraged by western govts who didnt want him to have his day in court, thats a whole different thing and far more serious. Shooting unarmed prisoners shouldnt be what governments do. The lack of dignity in his death, the parading of his body in a freezer in the streets and the youtube footage is disgusting. And the likes of Clinton and David Cameron are demeaning themselves by seeming to enjoy the spectacle like a couple of Romans in modern day Carthage.

Agreed. I read/heard it reported that there was a short period when it was debated whether to kill him or not. I suspect that, even if some in the group had suggested that he should be held captive, they would have lost out the the baying majority.

Gaddafi would have known full well he didn't stand a chance against this group of rebels. Hence his decision to retreat to Sirte where he could get the local population killed in vain defence of.....well, just him really. Selfish prick.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Betty Boop]

The US power grab in Africa

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MJ21Dj03.html#.TqCXCoU-Sz0.gmail

[(((Fergus)))]

Looks like he got something rammed up his jacksy before he died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLGY5czS1XQ


(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLGY5czS1XQ)

[Leicester Fan]

This thread confirms one thing, despite seizing power in a coup, despite killing thousands of his own people , by design and mismanagement, despite oppressing his people for 42 years. To some people, democracies like Britain and America will always be far worse despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Future17]

This thread confirms one thing, despite seizing power in a coup, despite killing thousands of his own people , by design and mismanagement, despite oppressing his people for 42 years. To some people, democracies like Britain and America will always be far worse despite all evidence to the contrary.

I don't this thread confirms that all.

[Hibrandenburg]

The world is a better place without him. If you live by the sword then you'll die by the sword. What goes around comes around. 3 cliches but all rather fitting in this case IMHO.

[DH1875]

Not confinced. Seems to me they assassinated him no question. Now comes the interesting part when they try to disarm everyone and install a legit government. As the saying goes, better the devil you know.

[Dinkydoo]

Not confinced. Seems to me they assassinated him no question. Who?
Now comes the interesting part when they try to disarm everyone and install a legit government. As the saying goes, better the devil you know.

......and wtf?

[DH1875]

Who?

......and wtf?

Who= Gaddafi. Correct me if I'm wrong but did he not try to surrender only for someone to walk up and blow his brains out :confused:.

WTF= If you think it's just a case of a simple hand over, your kidding yourself on.

[Pete]

Do you mean that as we are currently experiencing economic difficulty, we should ignore the plight of a population about to be massacred? How would you judge someone who had the ability to help you, but 'turned the other cheek'?

Helping to stop a massacre is one thing but continuous support for the rebels until a change of regime is another. Surely there could have been another way of doing this. It's as if certain parties were watching, got their claws in and didn't let go until their aims were achieved.

As for our economic situation, I do think it is important. Pensioners can't afford heating and are some are dying because of this. There are **** all jobs out there. Benefits and services are being cut left, right and centre and we are being told continuously how much debt our country is in...as a justification for the situation.
Yet on the other hand we are seeing our government go way beyond "stopping a massacre". We've found the resources to effect a regime change in Libya. People might argue that certain budgets are not linked or are ring-fenced but they come primarily from one source...so I don't see why every pound/dollar that this government spends isn't scrutinised.



I think your definition of government needs modifying. And, how did the whole thing start? An armed insurrection? Or, largely peaceful street protests?

As for how it started...was it was a "largely" peaceful street protest as you suggest? I'll hold my hands up and say I haven't followed that much news coverage of these incidents. Can I ask where you find the accounts of events that you believe to be true. I have to say I'm a little bit sceptical when it comes to news reports on such incidents.
I'm not trying to be smart when asking for your sources...just wanting to know.
However, even if the violence was instigated by the Gaddafi regime does it really justify our actions?





1. We had the means and the will to support in Libya. You cannot seriously be suggesting that we provoke a thirld world war (by attacking Iran)? Surely not!

What do you mean when you say "support"? Support the peace, uphold it and stop any human rights abuses or support regime change and a bloody revolution that will lead to democracy? As for means and will...well that's another topic altogether.

As for Iran I'm talking about our moral compass and why it is so selective. We all know fine why Iran is left alone....and Saudi.



2. There is a widely known and accepted view amongst governments across Africa that western (especially British) military intervention in sub-saharan Africa is not acceptable to the AU. So no, you can't compare Sudan or Zimbabwe here.

Of course, but even if it was we wouldn't do much about it because there is nothing in it for us. We just turned a blind eye even though the atrocities were ten times worse than the "potential" atrocities in Libya. Surely for a nation such as ours with the morals that we have we should have done more regardless of the resistance.



3. When you say "our" people, what do you mean? White people?

I'm talking about British citizens and those with dual nationality. If there was ever a reason for flexing our muscles and using force(more than angry looks) then that was it...British armed forces are for protecting British citizens and we just stood by and watched as atrocities were committed against our own people.
I know it's not realistic but bad things happened and nothing was done. It sticks in the craw of a lot of people especially in Southern Africa.




As things stand, there will be democratic elections within a year. A constitution in 8 months and an interim government within (I think) a month. So yeah, there may be an Islamic Party there, after all, it is an Islamic country. That is what happens in a democracy.

Somehow I doubt, have just given so much for freedom, Libyans would give it away with a vote.

I hope so but I'm not holding my breath. When was the last time we went into a country, tore it apart and had anything resembling a normal democracy within a year? The answer is never. I think we might meet old friends like civil war and surprise support for radical islamist groups.
I also have a feeling we are going to have to commit a lot more than we thought we would have. More money we simply can't afford. However, we've contributed to this mess so we'll have to pay to clean it up.


I'm just praying we don't "fall out" with anyone else.

[Pete]

This thread confirms one thing, despite seizing power in a coup, despite killing thousands of his own people , by design and mismanagement, despite oppressing his people for 42 years. To some people, democracies like Britain and America will always be far worse despite all evidence to the contrary.

I don't know who you're talking about but I'll stick my head up and say that sometimes we lower ourselves to their levels.

We simply can't throw stones and have no right to in some cases.

[Pete]

Looks like he got something rammed up his jacksy before he died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLGY5czS1XQ


(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLGY5czS1XQ)

Humiliated, sexually assaulted and then assassinated.

Whatever next.

I don't really want to see any more news about this or look at this thread again to be honest. I feel ashamed and it makes me physically sick.

I'm out.

[hibsbollah]

Looks like he got something rammed up his jacksy before he died.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLGY5czS1XQIts all a bit Abu Ghraib revisited.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm always slightly worried when people who have never lived under any form of tyrant start voicing their disapproval of how people that have deal with them.

Few people would have lectured the Italians or Romanians over Mussolini or Ceausescu so I'm not sure why Libyans are getting it now.

[IndieHibby]

I'm always slightly worried when people who have never lived under any form of tyrant start voicing their disapproval of how people that have deal with them.

Few people would have lectured the Italians or Romanians over Mussolini or Ceausescu so I'm not sure why Libyans are getting it now.

Agreed. For the first time, I think. It feels weird. :confused:

[hibsbollah]

The Mussolini parallels are all very interesting. Both died the same way humiliated and battered in the street, both had the same eccentric mannerisms, (the puffed out chest thing is really obvious) Libya was part of the old Italian 'empire', both were obsessed with history, both had delusions of military grandeur, Italy is still the main supplier of the countries weaponry and lots of interests in the country. Some spotty undergraduate will probably do a dissertation about it :greengrin.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Agreed. For the first time, I think. It feels weird. :confused:

One of us is doing something wrong...

[Sylar]

I'm always slightly worried when people who have never lived under any form of tyrant start voicing their disapproval of how people that have deal with them.

Few people would have lectured the Italians or Romanians over Mussolini or Ceausescu so I'm not sure why Libyans are getting it now.

I thought I had posted in here making a similar point earlier over the weekend, but must have closed my browser before it submitted.

A lot of posts on here condemning these people for ending his life. Granted, by the accounts, he was shown absolutely no mercy or dignity - but none of those saying how shocking it is have likely seen friends or family killed as a result of his rule, or indeed have any idea what it feels like to exist in his dictatorship government. The people who ended his life would have had an unparalleled sense of anger, emotion and sense of injustice - who are we to tell them they're wrong?

It would have been good to have him face trial and account for what he has done, but I can quite understand why he was treated in such a way and ultimately executed.



This thread confirms one thing, despite seizing power in a coup, despite killing thousands of his own people , by design and mismanagement, despite oppressing his people for 42 years. To some people, democracies like Britain and America will always be far worse despite all evidence to the contrary.

Again, agree fully.

[Pete]

I'm always slightly worried when people who have never lived under any form of tyrant start voicing their disapproval of how people that have deal with them.




A lot of posts on here condemning these people for ending his life. Granted, by the accounts, he was shown absolutely no mercy or dignity - but none of those saying how shocking it is have likely seen friends or family killed as a result of his rule, or indeed have any idea what it feels like to exist in his dictatorship government. The people who ended his life would have had an unparalleled sense of anger, emotion and sense of injustice - who are we to tell them they're wrong?

It would have been good to have him face trial and account for what he has done, but I can quite understand why he was treated in such a way and ultimately executed.

So you guys understand their actions and basically excuse them because they have suffered at the hands of his regime?

So if my daughter was killed by someone and I had the chance to take my own sort of revenge would that be OK because of the suffering that man has put me through? Surely I would be more qualified than a judge to administer punishment. When he has lost a daughter he can come back and judge my actions.
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't some of you been pretty vocal on the subjects of capital punishment, vigilantism and things like prisoners taking revenge on those who "deserve it" in jail?

Why are factors like revenge and emotion allowed into the equation this time?

Again, correct me if I'm getting my posters mixed up.

[Sir David Gray]

Let me, first of all, make it clear that I will shed absolutely no tears for Muammar Gaddafi. He was an evil man, responsible for some horrendous crimes. There is no doubt in my mind that he, at the very least, had prior knowledge of the Lockerbie bombing, of the events that led to the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher and that he supplied weapons to IRA terrorists who went on to use them against the United Kingdom.

I also honestly believe that he was a mentally disturbed individual, which is never a good thing for a world leader.

However, there is something not right about the images that we all saw last week, following his capture. We were told that we were aiding the Libyan rebels so that Libya could rid themselves of a mad dictator and become a responsible, civilised democracy. Instead what I saw was anything but, in fact it was barbaric and it amounts to a summary execution.

These people have deprived all his victims, and there were many of them, of getting real justice. He should have been arrested and put on trial for many of his alleged crimes. What an opportunity they had and it's been wasted.

For countries like the UK, who took part in the battle against Gaddafi, I think we may realise in the months ahead that we've made a mistake in getting involved in this particular fight.

It's one thing seeing the removal of Gaddafi but I don't think that there's any certainty that his replacement will be any better. I think there's a danger of there being an Islamist government in place, which is what I believe we will see in many of the Arab countries which have seen the fall of their tyrant leaders.

I think it's also important to remember that Libya has absolutely no recent experience of democracy and I have reservations about the assurances they've given of holding elections within eight months.

I wish them all the best but I'm not holding my breath on this one and I have a fear that what we may have helped to unleash is going to be a whole lot worse than what went before it.

[Sylar]

So you guys understand their actions and basically excuse them because they have suffered at the hands of his regime?

So if my daughter was killed by someone and I had the chance to take my own sort of revenge would that be OK because of the suffering that man has put me through? Surely I would be more qualified than a judge to administer punishment. When he has lost a daughter he can come back and judge my actions.
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't some of you been pretty vocal on the subjects of capital punishment, vigilantism and things like prisoners taking revenge on those who "deserve it" in jail?

Why are factors like revenge and emotion allowed into the equation this time?

Again, correct me if I'm getting my posters mixed up.

I'm not saying it was "right", merely that I can understand why.

[RyeSloan]

So you guys understand their actions and basically excuse them because they have suffered at the hands of his regime?

So if my daughter was killed by someone and I had the chance to take my own sort of revenge would that be OK because of the suffering that man has put me through? Surely I would be more qualified than a judge to administer punishment. When he has lost a daughter he can come back and judge my actions.
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't some of you been pretty vocal on the subjects of capital punishment, vigilantism and things like prisoners taking revenge on those who "deserve it" in jail?

Why are factors like revenge and emotion allowed into the equation this time?

Again, correct me if I'm getting my posters mixed up.

Urmm do you think there might a reasonable expectation that there may be a difference between how a criminal convicted of a crime commited in a democratic nation with a strong police backed up by an independent justice system might be treated compared to the treatment of a dictator who brutalised thousands of his own people decade after decade might expect?

[Dashing Bob S]

I thought I had posted in here making a similar point earlier over the weekend, but must have closed my browser before it submitted.

A lot of posts on here condemning these people for ending his life. Granted, by the accounts, he was shown absolutely no mercy or dignity - but none of those saying how shocking it is have likely seen friends or family killed as a result of his rule, or indeed have any idea what it feels like to exist in his dictatorship government. The people who ended his life would have had an unparalleled sense of anger, emotion and sense of injustice - who are we to tell them they're wrong?

It would have been good to have him face trial and account for what he has done, but I can quite understand why he was treated in such a way and ultimately executed.



This thread confirms one thing, despite seizing power in a coup, despite killing thousands of his own people , by design and mismanagement, despite oppressing his people for 42 years. To some people, democracies like Britain and America will always be far worse despite all evidence to the contrary.

Again, agree fully.

So lets be just like him.

[Dashing Bob S]

Let me, first of all, make it clear that I will shed absolutely no tears for Muammar Gaddafi. He was an evil man, responsible for some horrendous crimes. There is no doubt in my mind that he, at the very least, had prior knowledge of the Lockerbie bombing, of the events that led to the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher and that he supplied weapons to IRA terrorists who went on to use them against the United Kingdom.

I also honestly believe that he was a mentally disturbed individual, which is never a good thing for a world leader.

However, there is something not right about the images that we all saw last week, following his capture. We were told that we were aiding the Libyan rebels so that Libya could rid themselves of a mad dictator and become a responsible, civilised democracy. Instead what I saw was anything but, in fact it was barbaric and it amounts to a summary execution.

These people have deprived all his victims, and there were many of them, of getting real justice. He should have been arrested and put on trial for many of his alleged crimes. What an opportunity they had and it's been wasted.

For countries like the UK, who took part in the battle against Gaddafi, I think we may realise in the months ahead that we've made a mistake in getting involved in this particular fight.

It's one thing seeing the removal of Gaddafi but I don't think that there's any certainty that his replacement will be any better. I think there's a danger of there being an Islamist government in place, which is what I believe we will see in many of the Arab countries which have seen the fall of their tyrant leaders.

I think it's also important to remember that Libya has absolutely no recent experience of democracy and I have reservations about the assurances they've given of holding elections within eight months.

I wish them all the best but I'm not holding my breath on this one and I have a fear that what we may have helped to unleash is going to be a whole lot worse than what went before it.

You know that the people we are touting now as 'freedom fighters' will be dictators/terrorists in six months months time when they grow a set and use their countries resources on themselves (fascism) or their people (democracy) rather than us.

[khib70]

I'm always slightly worried when people who have never lived under any form of tyrant start voicing their disapproval of how people that have deal with them.

Few people would have lectured the Italians or Romanians over Mussolini or Ceausescu so I'm not sure why Libyans are getting it now.
Yep,that'll do for me :agree:

Sympathies should be saved for the victims. Gadaffi suffered for five minutes - "his" people for 42 years.

[Big Ed]

Yep,that'll do for me :agree:

Sympathies should be saved for the victims. Gadaffi suffered for five minutes - "his" people for 42 years.

Maybe the relatives of his victims would have preferred criminal justice, rather than some mysterious individual deciding that he knew best.
Even the Nazi’s got a trial.

[Sylar]

So lets be just like him.

See my last post :rolleyes:

[Dinkydoo]

Who= Gaddafi. Correct me if I'm wrong but did he not try to surrender only for someone to walk up and blow his brains out :confused:.

WTF= If you think it's just a case of a simple hand over, your kidding yourself on.

After re-reading it's prety clear what you meant in the post I quoted.

Computers should have breathalysers - this post is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, (of) the damage I caused on Saturday night. :boo hoo: :drunk:

[Betty Boop]

We are all Barbarians.

[bighairyfaeleith]

We are all Barbarians.

speak fir yersel, I'm remarkably refined!!

[Hibrandenburg]

We are all Barbarians.

Only in some rooms of my domicile.

[Prof. Shaggy]

This thread confirms one thing, despite seizing power in a coup, despite killing thousands of his own people , by design and mismanagement, despite oppressing his people for 42 years. To some people, democracies like Britain and America will always be far worse despite all evidence to the contrary.

At a rough guess, over the last forty two years the democracies Britain and America between them, have killed more Arabs than Gaddafi, Bin Laden and Saddam put together. (That's not counting Iranians as Arabs, of course).

All for the very best of reasons of course....

[One Day Soon]

At a rough guess, over the last forty two years the democracies Britain and America between them, have killed more Arabs than Gaddafi, Bin Laden and Saddam put together. (That's not counting Iranians as Arabs, of course).

All for the very best of reasons of course....

I think that's a highly dubious and pointless assertion.

[Kato]

At a rough guess, over the last forty two years the democracies Britain and America between them, have killed more Arabs than Gaddafi, Bin Laden and Saddam put together. (That's not counting Iranians as Arabs, of course).

All for the very best of reasons of course....

How rough a guess?

Been reading this thread and have been thinking if I have any sympathy for the Colonel or not. Still to feel any.

[hibsbollah]

At a rough guess, over the last forty two years the democracies Britain and America between them, have killed more Arabs than Gaddafi, Bin Laden and Saddam put together. (That's not counting Iranians as Arabs, of course).All for the very best of reasons of course.... Hmmm. I think youve overcooked your hyperbole there. Saddams campaigns against his own Arabs dwarf any casualties from either of the US-led Iraq Wars. Not sure body counts ever prove or disprove that much anyway.

[GhostofBolivar]

So NATO bombed the crap out of Gaddafi's forces on behalf of people who probably murdered Gaddafi, but not before they raped him and only because they'd got into the habit of killing anyone they took prisoner.

Brilliant.

Better go over it with another coat of whitewash Mr Prime Minister.

http://www.channel4.com/news/gaddafi-buried-at-dawn-in-secret-location

[bighairyfaeleith]

Not to mention the 50 gaddafi fighters that where executed in sirte as well. While this still pales into insignificance compared to the atrocities carried out by gaddafi's side, especially in misrata, war crimes are war crimes and our government has openly supported one side in this war and should now be demanding answers to what has happened in sirte, especially when it was done with our help!

[Dinkydoo]

Not to mention the 50 gaddafi fighters that where executed in sirte as well. While this still pales into insignificance compared to the atrocities carried out by gaddafi's side, especially in misrata, war crimes are war crimes and our government has openly supported one side in this war and should now be demanding answers to what has happened in sirte, especially when it was done with our help!

I agree.

Whilst I don't particularly care that Gaddafi was murdered in a somewhat brutal and undignified manner, it would be highly irresponsible of our government to adopt a similar position.

[Betty Boop]

Not to mention the 50 gaddafi fighters that where executed in sirte as well. While this still pales into insignificance compared to the atrocities carried out by gaddafi's side, especially in misrata, war crimes are war crimes and our government has openly supported one side in this war and should now be demanding answers to what has happened in sirte, especially when it was done with our help!

300 bodies now found in Sirte, executed with their hands tied behind their backs, now being dumped in a mass grave. Re our government, its all gone kind of quiet, don't you think ? All this brutality has ruined Cameron's victory celebrations.

[One Day Soon]

300 bodies now found in Sirte, executed with their hands tied behind their backs, now being dumped in a mass grave. Re our government, its all gone kind of quiet, don't you think ? All this brutality has ruined Cameron's victory celebrations.

If our armed forces had conducted themselves in anything even remotely like this way there would now be a media uproar calling for heads on sticks.

[bighairyfaeleith]

If our armed forces had conducted themselves in anything even remotely like this way there would now be a media uproar calling for heads on sticks.

This is precisely the issue for me, if we expect our soldiers to behave one way, we cannot then help and through not condemning, condone the actions of an army which commits war crimes then we leave ourselves in a position where we are no better than them.

We did have to do something and I wouldn't have been comfortable allowing gaddafi's troops to massacre benghazi as it would have been a lot worse than what happened in sirte, however that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be asking serious questions of the new libyan authorities now. I found it interesting that the NTC want nato to stay in place until the end of the year, wonder who they fear most, elements of there own forces or a few fleeing gaddafi fighters?

Civil wars are never an easy thing to take a side in.

[RyeSloan]

This is precisely the issue for me, if we expect our soldiers to behave one way, we cannot then help and through not condemning, condone the actions of an army which commits war crimes then we leave ourselves in a position where we are no better than them.

We did have to do something and I wouldn't have been comfortable allowing gaddafi's troops to massacre benghazi as it would have been a lot worse than what happened in sirte, however that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be asking serious questions of the new libyan authorities now. I found it interesting that the NTC want nato to stay in place until the end of the year, wonder who they fear most, elements of there own forces or a few fleeing gaddafi fighters?

Civil wars are never an easy thing to take a side in.

Yet it was NATO bombs that stopped Gaddafi's column in the first place. I'm slightly confused as to why the western governments are now calling for an investigation into how he died...would a missile from a drone have really been any different than being dragged from a pipe and shot in the head, both seem like summary execution to me.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Yet it was NATO bombs that stopped Gaddafi's column in the first place. I'm slightly confused as to why the western governments are now calling for an investigation into how he died...would a missile from a drone have really been any different than being dragged from a pipe and shot in the head, both seem like summary execution to me.

I suspect you might be pretty close to the truth there, no way NATO wants it looked at too much because a lot of the bombing runs were not just to defend civilians and I think the lines got blurred towards the end in regards to what we where doing in Libya.

[Betty Boop]

Rebels turn on each other in Tripoli.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29576.htm

[Prof. Shaggy]

Hmmm. I think youve overcooked your hyperbole there. Saddams campaigns against his own Arabs dwarf any casualties from either of the US-led Iraq Wars. Not sure body counts ever prove or disprove that much anyway.

Do you really think so?
I have to say I don't know. But I doubt it.


I think that's a highly dubious and pointless assertion.

Not an assertion.
A rough guess, and its only pointless if you don't count the dead when God's on your side.

[One Day Soon]

Do you really think so?
I have to say I don't know. But I doubt it.



Not an assertion.
A rough guess, and its only pointless if you don't count the dead when God's on your side.

Hibsbollah is more than capable of defending his own position. However, the the semantics you deploy only serve to underline that you are making it up as you go along. I'm not sure what your comment on God and the dead is supposed to mean. Some kind of 'evil westerners murder Arabs' assertion?

Gos knows how many Arab deaths Saddam was responsible for in the Iran/Iraq war. Why would they be discounted? Then there are the Kurds in his own country and of course his own political opponents systematically tortured and murdered on an industrial scale.

Really, what was your point?

[Prof. Shaggy]

Hibsbollah is more than capable of defending his own position. However, the the semantics you deploy only serve to underline that you are making it up as you go along. I'm not sure what your comment on God and the dead is supposed to mean. Some kind of 'evil westerners murder Arabs' assertion?

Gos knows how many Arab deaths Saddam was responsible for in the Iran/Iraq war. Why would they be discounted? Then there are the Kurds in his own country and of course his own political opponents systematically tortured and murdered on an industrial scale.

Really, what was your point?

What the semantic difference between an assertion and a guess?
I have, very candidly, admitted I don't know the truth here.
I reserve the right, unconditionally, to pose the question.
And that's my point.

I deliberately excluded Iranian deaths, partly because Iranians don't consider themselves Arabs but also because that was a war sponsored by the USA who also participated in it on Saddam's behalf.

God on your side is a reference.
Google it.

[One Day Soon]

What the semantic difference between an assertion and a guess?

Your first post claimed that more Arabs had been killed by the US and Britain than by Saddam, Gaddafi and Bin Laden put together. It wasn't posed as a question but asserted as a statement of fact.


I have, very candidly, admitted I don't know the truth here.

That much is obvious.


I reserve the right, unconditionally, to pose the question.

In that case at some stage you should go ahead and pose the question instead of asserting the 'fact'.


And that's my point.

Well no, your point appears to be that yes, despite the fact that Gaddafi seized power in a coup, killed thousands of his own people and oppressed them for 42 years, nonetheless the US and UK democracies are worse. However I don't recall administrations in those two countries doing any of those things to their people. If you had posted under either Gaddafi or Saddam equivalent criticism of their regimes to those you have made about the US and the UK in this thread you would not currently be contemplating your next reply to the discussion. You would be wondering how you were going to persuade their secret police not to remove your fingers, torture your genitals or take reprisals against your family.


I deliberately excluded Iranian deaths, partly because Iranians don't consider themselves Arabs but also because that was a war sponsored by the USA who also participated in it on Saddam's behalf.

Oh that's all right then. Saddam's body count doesn't qualify because Iranians don't regard themselves as Arabs. Better still it was all the fault of the big, bad US.


God on your side is a reference.
Google it.

Um no, it is your contention so you can either reference/explain/develop it yourself or just not bother.


For something who appears to be implying that Western countries don't see dead people when they think they 'have God on their side' you have a peculiar accounting mechanism of your own when it comes to dead Iranians. And Kurds presumably just don't count at all? I don't think we've even touched upon Kuwaitis yet either....

[Prof. Shaggy]

Um no, it is your contention so you can either reference/explain/develop it yourself or just not bother.


For something who appears to be implying that Western countries don't see dead people when they think they 'have God on their side' you have a peculiar accounting mechanism of your own when it comes to dead Iranians. And Kurds presumably just don't count at all? I don't think we've even touched upon Kuwaitis yet either....

You've kind of lost me there.
I can't see what's quote, what's rebuttal and what's post.

I can see the words you're trying to put into my mouth and that you continue to confuse speculation with assertion but I can't see why you won't look up up a simple quotation. But that's up to you.

[One Day Soon]

You've kind of lost me there.
I can't see what's quote, what's rebuttal and what's post.

I can see the words you're trying to put into my mouth and that you continue to confuse speculation with assertion but I can't see why you won't look up up a simple quotation. But that's up to you.

PS: What the semantic difference between an assertion and a guess?

ODS: Your first post claimed that more Arabs had been killed by the US and Britain than by Saddam, Gaddafi and Bin Laden put together. It wasn't posed as a question but asserted as a statement of fact.


PS: I have, very candidly, admitted I don't know the truth here.

ODS: That much is obvious.


PS: I reserve the right, unconditionally, to pose the question.

ODS: In that case at some stage you should go ahead and pose the question instead of asserting the 'fact'.


PS: And that's my point.

ODS: Well no, your point appears to be that yes, despite the fact that Gaddafi seized power in a coup, killed thousands of his own people and oppressed them for 42 years, nonetheless the US and UK democracies are worse. However I don't recall administrations in those two countries doing any of those things to their people. If you had posted under either Gaddafi or Saddam equivalent criticism of their regimes to those you have made about the US and the UK in this thread you would not currently be contemplating your next reply to the discussion. You would be wondering how you were going to persuade their secret police not to remove your fingers, torture your genitals or take reprisals against your family.


PS; I deliberately excluded Iranian deaths, partly because Iranians don't consider themselves Arabs but also because that was a war sponsored by the USA who also participated in it on Saddam's behalf.

ODS: Oh that's all right then. Saddam's body count doesn't qualify because Iranians don't regard themselves as Arabs. Better still it was all the fault of the big, bad US.


PS: God on your side is a reference.
Google it.


ODS: Um no, it is your contention so you can either reference/explain/develop it yourself or just not bother.

ODS: For something who appears to be implying that Western countries don't see dead people when they think they 'have God on their side' you have a peculiar accounting mechanism of your own when it comes to dead Iranians. And Kurds presumably just don't count at all? I don't think we've even touched upon Kuwaitis yet either....


There you go. Don't think I could make it any simpler than that for you.

[Betty Boop]

Another humanitarian intervention looks to be on the cards, only a matter of time.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29763.htm

[Betty Boop]

Saif al Islam arrested in Southern Libya. Any chance of him making it to the ICC ?

[Future17]

Saif al Islam arrested in Southern Libya. Any chance of him making it to the ICC ?

I didn't even know he played.

[hibsbollah]

I didn't even know he played. Can produce a decent chinaman when the conditions are right.

[Future17]

Can produce a decent chinaman when the conditions are right.

I thought that was just leftist spin?

[RyeSloan]

I thought that was just leftist spin?

I had to search on google(y) to see what you guys were on about here....turns out its all pretty unorthodox so I will bail from this thread I think.
:greengrin