Rangers(Administration)

[7heaven]

Heard from a Rangers Season Ticket holder that they will go into administration this Friday.
Sounds like an opportune time to announce it.
10 point deduction and they will still be top.

[R'Albin]

This would probably be a good thing for the Huns for that to happen to them this season, because despite the deduction they will still probably win the league.

[Jack]

Just shows how ineffective the rules and laws are that they can cheat in the league to the tune of £70m and get away with it by winning the league. And not only that basically stealing from the creditors, the main one of which is you and I.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Just shows how ineffective the rules and laws are that they can cheat in the league to the tune of £70m and get away with it by winning the league. And not only that basically stealing from the creditors, the main one of which is you and I.

So what happens to the assests - Ibrox and Murray Park etc....

I'm sure they will have "legally" set these up in another company :confused:

Sorry, but if they go into Administration, we should be talking about them starting in the lower leagues, not 10 points :confused:

Oh, sorry, just remembered they are based in Glasgow.

[Thecat23]

I have also heard this too. But i was told he want's to re-brand Rangers FC, to Glasgow Rangers FC. Not sure if this will happen but i know it's been talked about. My source was John Greig's nephew.

[bingo70]

This would probably be a good thing for the Huns for that to happen to them this season, because despite the deduction they will still probably win the league.

It's not just the 10 point deduction though, they'd also have to sell all their best players that they can't afford at cut down prices and not be able to replace them.

It's a similiar issue at Hearts, people seem to forget the fact that these clubs are paying more than they can afford is exactly why they're doing better than us (or celtic in rangers case) so when people talk about being bored about hearts going into administration threads cos they're better than us it does my head in, the two factors are linked together and thats a far bigger factor as to why they've got a better derby record than us rather than anything to do with mindsets or attitudes at either club.

[MB62]

It's not just the 10 point deduction though, they'd also have to sell all their best players that they can't afford at cut down prices and not be able to replace them.

It's a similiar issue at Hearts, people seem to forget the fact that these clubs are paying more than they can afford is exactly why they're doing better than us (or celtic in rangers case) so when people talk about being bored about hearts going into administration threads cos they're better than us it does my head in, the two factors are linked together and thats a far bigger factor as to why they've got a better derby record than us rather than anything to do with mindsets or attitudes at either club.

Having just posted a loss of £900,000 in the last financial year, it seems we are doing exactly the same.

[bingo70]

Having just posted a loss of £900,000 in the last financial year, it seems we are doing exactly the same.

I think 1 loss in 7 years isn't too bad considering the bulk of our debt is on improving the infrastructure of the club rather than on the team to get short term gain like hertz and the huns have done.

[Steve20]

This would probably be a good thing for the Huns for that to happen to them this season, because despite the deduction they will still probably win the league.

Not sure they would win the league, but there is something really wrong that they can build up a lead at the top and then just take the 10 point deduction and still be challenging. 25 point deduction or send them down a league.

[green glory]

Didn't Dundee get a 25 point deduction? Would the SFA be so harsh to their pals at Ibrox? Hmm we'll see. Even if they did get a 25 point deduction, they'd get enough penalties to help them win the league anyway. :faf:

Would be nicer if they just went out of business completely. Bulldoze Ibrox I say!

[McD]

2 existing precedents:

Dundee - 25 point deduction last year (and they still came very close to winning 1st Division)
Livingston being relegated to 3rd Division.

[Caversham Green]

Rangers have really serious problems. I suspect HMRC could object to an administration order before the tax case is settled, but if they can pull it off, then the tax debt would not be a part of the administration process as it has not been determined yet. That means it would still be there when they exit administration. On the other other hand, if the liability is determined in the amounts that have been quoted (£49m) HMRC would become their largest creditor and could prevent them from exiting administration, in which case there would be no alternative but to wind them up.

I suspect they'll find a way round it, but on the face of it, it really could be terminal.

[ScottB]

I have also heard this too. But i was told he want's to re-brand Rangers FC, to Glasgow Rangers FC. Not sure if this will happen but i know it's been talked about. My source was John Greig's nephew.

They'd only need to do that if they went totally bust, Whyte, presumably now owning the assets under other legal entities would set up a new company, in this case Glasgow Rangers FC, and get back to business, as when Airdrieonians went bust and returned as Airdrie Untied, or Fiorentina being (briefly) Florentina Viola.



2 existing precedents:

Dundee - 25 point deduction last year (and they still came very close to winning 1st Division)
Livingston being relegated to 3rd Division.

Dundee got that much because it was their second time, the Livi case was later decided to have been 'too harsh,' can't see it happening again for administration.

IF they were to go totally bust, rather than just administration, then relegation is I think the only option on the books?

[lucky]

There is no way Rangers will get relegated on the back of administration. The SPL needs them now more than ever. They bring over 7000 away fans to the two games at ER thats nearly £300k. That's a third of our losses for the last financial year. So if they go bust Scottish football would be on its knees. Be careful what we wish for.

[Phil MaGlass]

There is no way Rangers will get relegated on the back of administration. The SPL needs them now more than ever. They bring over 7000 away fans to the two games at ER thats nearly £300k. That's a third of our losses for the last financial year. So if they go bust Scottish football would be on its knees. Be careful what we wish for.

Aye but it would give a great cash boost to the first division and Scottish fitba if they were relegated, they really need to be punished dont you think and an example made of.

[greenginger]

There is no way Rangers will get relegated on the back of administration. The SPL needs them now more than ever. They bring over 7000 away fans to the two games at ER thats nearly £300k. That's a third of our losses for the last financial year. So if they go bust Scottish football would be on its knees. Be careful what we wish for.


£ 300,000 is also just two directors salary packages. We could make savings ! :aok:

[steakbake]

Aye but it would give a great cash boost to the first division and Scottish fitba if they were relegated, they really need to be punished dont you think and an example made of.

It will never ever happen.

[Green Man]

I don't know what the actual rules are - given the difference in the Dundee and Livingston cases, it may be the case that the SFL make them up as they go along. But I'm sure the SPL could avoid using those as precedent as they're a separate organisation from the SFL.

[Thecat23]

They'd only need to do that if they went totally bust, Whyte, presumably now owning the assets under other legal entities would set up a new company, in this case Glasgow Rangers FC, and get back to business, as when Airdrieonians went bust and returned as Airdrie Untied, or Fiorentina being (briefly) Florentina Viola.




Dundee got that much because it was their second time, the Livi case was later decided to have been 'too harsh,' can't see it happening again for administration.

IF they were to go totally bust, rather than just administration, then relegation is I think the only option on the books?

That's right mate, that's what he was also saying.

[Sylar]

2 existing precedents:

Dundee - 25 point deduction last year (and they still came very close to winning 1st Division)
Livingston being relegated to 3rd Division.

There's no legislative guidelines in the SFL, so they have the power to determine (i.e., make it up as they go along) what the punishment is.

I'm pretty sure a 10 point penalty is in the SPL guidelines, hence why it was imposed on Gretna when they went into administration.

I can't see Rangers going down the administration route though.

[Hibee87]

They'd only need to do that if they went totally bust, Whyte, presumably now owning the assets under other legal entities would set up a new company, in this case Glasgow Rangers FC, and get back to business, as when Airdrieonians went bust and returned as Airdrie Untied, or Fiorentina being (briefly) Florentina Viola.




Dundee got that much because it was their second time, the Livi case was later decided to have been 'too harsh,' can't see it happening again for administration.

IF they were to go totally bust, rather than just administration, then relegation is I think the only option on the books?

Excuse my ignorance but surly that would mean having to start at the bottom again ala airdrie>

Im assumingthat rangers are registers to the SPL as rangers plc (or whatever there called) and changing it to glasgow rangers plc would them mean they need to resubmit there application to the league? :confused:

[Peevemor]

They'd only need to do that if they went totally bust, Whyte, presumably now owning the assets under other legal entities would set up a new company, in this case Glasgow Rangers FC, and get back to business, as when Airdrieonians went bust and returned as Airdrie Untied, or Fiorentina being (briefly) Florentina Viola.


That's right mate, that's what he was also saying.

It only worked for Airdrie because Clydebank went down the tubes at the same time and Airdrie Utd., a brand new set up, effectively bought their place in the league.

[ScottB]

Excuse my ignorance but surly that would mean having to start at the bottom again ala airdrie>

Im assumingthat rangers are registers to the SPL as rangers plc (or whatever there called) and changing it to glasgow rangers plc would them mean they need to resubmit there application to the league? :confused:

I seem to remember Airdrie only going down a division, as at the same time Clydebank hit the wall.

It would depend if there are any rules in the SPL for this, there may well be, and given that when they were written there would have been no thought that they might one day apply to an Old Firm club, they may be harsh!

Saying that, the league needs them, and their cash, so they'll no doubt get to weasel their way back in.

[Peevemor]

The French system seems to work pretty well. I don't know all the ins and outs, but clubs have to submit their accounts along with budgets for the coming year. If anything reckless or dodgy is found, then clubs can find themselves being dropped down a couple of divisions.

[Hibee87]

I seem to remember Airdrie only going down a division, as at the same time Clydebank hit the wall.

It would depend if there are any rules in the SPL for this, there may well be, and given that when they were written there would have been no thought that they might one day apply to an Old Firm club, they may be harsh!

Saying that, the league needs them, and their cash, so they'll no doubt get to weasel their way back in.

Yeah expect the rules to be frantically getitng re written just now......however if they do manage to weasel out of this it could open up a law suite form a number of clubs, livi, dundee, gretna to name a few who could take this to the high court powers outwith the SPL's hands? I know nothing of how all this works but could be a sticky situation for them surelt it wont be as simple as changing there name and continuing as thoguh nothign as happened or at least conituning with little effect? at the end of the day they have been cheating for years by overspending and if rules were to be bent to suit them then every other club would be able to do the same thing :confused:

[Peevemor]

I seem to remember Airdrie only going down a division, as at the same time Clydebank hit the wall.

It would depend if there are any rules in the SPL for this, there may well be, and given that when they were written there would have been no thought that they might one day apply to an Old Firm club, they may be harsh!

Saying that, the league needs them, and their cash, so they'll no doubt get to weasel their way back in.

No, they went out of existance.


Airdrie United were formed in 2002, following the bankruptcy of Airdrieonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airdrieonians_F.C.) due to heavy debts.

Airdrieonians had finished runners-up in the Scottish First Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Football_League_First_Division) in the 2001–02 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_First_Division_2001-02) but went out of business with debts approaching £3 million. The collapse of "The Diamonds", as they were known due to their distinctive kits, created a vacancy in the Scottish Football League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Football_League) (in the Scottish Third Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Football_League_Third_Division)). Accountant and Airdrieonians fan Jim Ballantyne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ballantyne) attempted, with the help of others, to gain entry with a club called "Airdrie United" who were essentially to be a reincarnation of Airdrieonians. Their application however was rejected as the then English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) Northern Premier League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Premier_League) side Gretna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretna_F.C.) were preferred by league members over the new Airdrie United.

Ballantyne went on to complete a buy-out of the ailing Second Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Football_League_Second_Division) side Clydebank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clydebank_F.C.) and with SFL approval the club were relocated to Airdrie, the strips were transformed to resemble that of Airdrieonians, and the name was changed to Airdrie United. While this means that the club are therefore officially a continuation of Clydebank they are almost universally accepted as a reincarnation of Airdrieonians, with Clydebank having been reformed by supporters groups and entering into the Scottish Junior League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Junior_Football_League).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airdrie_United_F.C.

[IWasThere2016]

2 existing precedents:

Dundee - 25 point deduction last year (and they still came very close to winning 1st Division)
Livingston being relegated to 3rd Division.

What happened to the Muthas? The SPL has separate rules.


Rangers have really serious problems. I suspect HMRC could object to an administration order before the tax case is settled, but if they can pull it off, then the tax debt would not be a part of the administration process as it has not been determined yet. That means it would still be there when they exit administration. On the other other hand, if the liability is determined in the amounts that have been quoted (£49m) HMRC would become their largest creditor and could prevent them from exiting administration, in which case there would be no alternative but to wind them up.

I suspect they'll find a way round it, but on the face of it, it really could be terminal.

:agree: My take also. This would have been settled by now if there was not a real issue.


I can't see Rangers going down the administration route though.

Really - see above.

[basehibby]

Heard from a Rangers Season Ticket holder that they will go into administration this Friday.
Sounds like an opportune time to announce it.
10 point deduction and they will still be top.

Sounds promising - fingers crossed and please please PLEASE let this be true :pray:

[Billy Whizz]

It might help push through change in the SPL. At the moment Celtic/Rangers are blocking change. If Rangers go bust and start all over again as something else they should give up their voting rights!

[Peevemor]

What happened to the Muthas?

I may be wrong, but I think they got out of jail because their main creditor was their owner John Boyle, who forgave most of their debt when no other solution/buyer could be found.

[Caversham Green]

I may be wrong, but I think they got out of jail because their main creditor was their owner John Boyle, who forgave most of their debt when no other solution/buyer could be found.

:agree: IIRC Motherwell Dundee and Livi all went bust during the same season. I think the SPL introduced the 10 point deduction rule as a result of that, so none of them actually lost points. Motherwell are the only top-flight UK club I can think of that have been through administration and not suffered. All the rest seem to have fallen out of their league and struggled to get back up.


A thought though. If Rangers were to go bust and do an Airdrie they'd be better to buy out an SPL club. Preferably one with a strong loyalist following that is actively trying to sell its dump of a stadium and owes a massive debt to its owner, who is desperate to get rid of them. Are there any clubs like that?

[steakbake]

:agree: IIRC Motherwell Dundee and Livi all went bust during the same season. I think the SPL introduced the 10 point deduction rule as a result of that, so none of them actually lost points. Motherwell are the only top-flight UK club I can think of that have been through administration and not suffered. All the rest seem to have fallen out of their league and struggled to get back up.


A thought though. If Rangers were to go bust and do an Airdrie they'd be better to buy out an SPL club. Preferably one with a strong loyalist following that is actively trying to sell its dump of a stadium and owes a massive debt to its owner, who is desperate to get rid of them. Are there any clubs like that?

:greengrin: beautiful!

[greenginger]

A thought though. If Rangers were to go bust and do an Airdrie they'd be better to buy out an SPL club. Preferably one with a strong loyalist following that is actively trying to sell its dump of a stadium and owes a massive debt to its owner, who is desperate to get rid of them. Are there any clubs like that?[/QUOTE]

Desperate to get rid of them --- I'll give Vlad a pound and not ask for any change, its the going rate for bust football clubs. :greengrin

[PISTOL1875]

Just shows how ineffective the rules and laws are that they can cheat in the league to the tune of £70m and get away with it by winning the league. And not only that basically stealing from the creditors, the main one of which is you and I.

You have refs and there assistants to blame for that...

[Dashing Bob S]

As Rangers have been treated rather unfairly by Scottish footballing authorities over the years, I'd like to the game make amends and give the Ibrox outfit a 25 point increase. I also feel that there creditors should come to their senses and write of any debts incurred by this great institution.

[The Falcon]

As Rangers have been treated rather unfairly by Scottish footballing authorities over the years, .

Dont forget the BBC Bob, utterley scandalous the disrespect a publicly funded body has shown for a world famous Scottish institution.

[SteveHFC]

I would take Wylde off them :agree:

[Springbank]

I would take Wylde off them :agree: perhaps city of edinburgh council can approach rangers to waste my money scoping a community stadium? It's what criminal businesses (sorry, big teams) expect

[matty_f]

Surely if they do go into administration it's not as simple as having the points deduction and then carrying on as normal?

The administrators would got through the club and slash costs wherever they could - the playing staff would be hit and so Rangers would need to (I'd assume) see out the season with a threadbare side made up of their lowest paid players.

[nortonhibby]

It's not just the 10 point deduction though, they'd also have to sell all their best players that they can't afford at cut down prices and not be able to replace them.

It's a similiar issue at Hearts, people seem to forget the fact that these clubs are paying more than they can afford is exactly why they're doing better than us (or celtic in rangers case) so when people talk about being bored about hearts going into administration threads cos they're better than us it does my head in, the two factors are linked together and thats a far bigger factor as to why they've got a better derby record than us rather than anything to do with mindsets or attitudes at either club.

Good point but when did we last win a Derby yes we have a good bank balance but it must be a few years now CC Has not one a Derby i cabt recall Yogi doing the business I Wnt a quality team on the pitch i dont give a hoot about the bank balance

[Boris]

There's a superb blog which seems to have a lot of inside information on the financial shenanigans at the currant buns - www.rangerstaxcase.com (http://www.rangerstaxcase.com). Programme on BBC1 tonight at 7pm which will throw more light on the situation too.

[ancient hibee]

Heard from a Rangers Season Ticket holder that they will go into administration this Friday.
Sounds like an opportune time to announce it.
10 point deduction and they will still be top.

Just shows Rangers Season Ticket holders spout as much p**h as we do:greengrin

[Caversham Green]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?

[Gettin' Auld]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?
Aye i watched it......Mr Whyte has (according to the BBC) allegedly been a bit of a naughty boy in the past. :greengrin

[Lofarl]

Judging by that program Vlad appears to be a straight talking honest business man. Dodgy is not the word for what Mr Whyte is. Rangers are Donald Ducked :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Billy Whizz]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?
Heard Chick Young say on Sportsound that this
Story would rock Scottish Football for years to come!!!

[The_Sauz]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?

It's on Iplayer next week :agree:

[Sergey]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?

FFS - This is surreal. I actually know the guy Kevin Sykes that's reported to be the business contact in that article. I've got a friend that's in business with him today and I worked for him back in the 90's

He got 7 years back in 2003(ish) for fraudulently raping the pension fund of a Birmingham Lockmaker.

If Whyte was connected to Sykes then there was something fraudulent going on.

[PaulSmith]

Heard Chick Young say on Sportsound that this
Story would rock Scottish Football for years to come!!!

It didn't rock anything and there was very little new in the programme

[down-the-slope]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?

You will enjoy it...seems the method he had operated is buying debt ridden businesses...making sure he is preffered creditor...and leaving other creditors 'behind'....

He - if the deal is structured the way I understand - in even in front of HMRC in terms of creditors.......

[Sergey]

You will enjoy it...seems the method he had operated is buying debt ridden businesses...making sure he is preffered creditor...and leaving other creditors 'behind'....

He - if the deal is structured the way I understand - in even in front of HMRC in terms of creditors.......

That was exactly Kevin Sykes' business model.

He almost came a cropper a few years ago when winding-up a company in Ireland. That's not a tale I wish to relay on a messageboard :wink:

[Twa Cairpets]

Good point but when did we last win a Derby yes we have a good bank balance but it must be a few years now CC Has not one a Derby i cabt recall Yogi doing the business I Wnt a quality team on the pitch i dont give a hoot about the bank balance

Did you not see the title of the thread? About administration and clubs going ppffftt. But no, dont give a hoot about the bank balance.

[The Harp Awakes]

You will enjoy it...seems the method he had operated is buying debt ridden businesses...making sure he is preffered creditor...and leaving other creditors 'behind'....

He - if the deal is structured the way I understand - in even in front of HMRC in terms of creditors.......

Correct. Rangers go into admin and Whyte gets his cash back with the other creditors including HMRC getting next to nowt. Rangers debt is written off and they are free start again on an even keel. Admin ends up being the Club's saviour and being 7 points ahead in the SPL there's plenty time for them make up the 3 points deficit and regain their title. Seems like a plan:rolleyes:

[Bobo]

Scottish football is bad enough without some of its members living outwith their means and racking up debt in order to gain the upper hand on better run clubs only to seek financial rescue via administration.

If they go into administration they should be demoted to Div 3 and made to play their way back into the Premier League.

[down-the-slope]

Correct. Rangers go into admin and Whyte gets his cash back with the other creditors including HMRC getting next to nowt. Rangers debt is written off and they are free start again on an even keel. Admin ends up being the Club's saviour and being 7 points ahead in the SPL there's plenty time for them make up the 3 points deficit and regain their title. Seems like a plan:rolleyes:

Not quite that simple...there needs to be cash to re-pay Whyte his (£18 million ish) preffered debt...there not....unless assets are sold....now eithre they could be sold and him repayed (but what benefit to Whyte?) or I would guess he could try and get administrator to agree debt for asset swap...Ill take ground and call it quits, kind of thing...HMRC no longer have Rangers FC to chase for their 'fraud'...money Rangers FC owe on players transfers is cancelled etc....Glasgow Rangers FC is born...no debt...Whyte has effectively paid £18,000,001 for them with no debt.......

The only flaw in this could be how UEFA react (we all know SFA will bend over and take it) If clubs shafted for transfer installments and their 'financial fair play' drive cause a fuss...they could find themselves as outcasts....lets hope so, otherwise its financial Alchemy on Whytes part...reward for 'sharp' practice

[poolman]

Scottish football is bad enough without some of its members living outwith their means and racking up debt in order to gain the upper hand on better run clubs only to seek financial rescue via administration.

If they go into administration they should be demoted to Div 3 and made to play their way back into the Premier League.


Ah but they're going straight to the English Premiership where they're gonnna be welcomed with open arms dont ye know

Well, according to them every so often :rolleyes:

[Kaiser1962]

Heard Chick Young say on Sportsound that this
Story would rock Scottish Football for years to come!!!


It didn't rock anything and there was very little new in the programme

The real story is obviously

" Chick Young in Talking Sheight Shock---Exclusive"

[lucky]

The story was about his shadey deals and also indicated that he had no money

[IWasThere2016]

Didn't shock me tbh

We've just to hope HMRC come calling :agree:

[IWasThere2016]

The thot plickens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15377454

I didn't get the programme down here - I'll have to try and get it on iplayer. Did anyone see it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016bh4z/BBC_Scotland_Investigates_2011_Rangers_The_Inside_ Story/

[Sergey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016bh4z/BBC_Scotland_Investigates_2011_Rangers_The_Inside_ Story/

Cheers, G :thumbsup:

[monktonharp]

I think 1 loss in 7 years isn't too bad considering the bulk of our debt is on improving the infrastructure of the club rather than on the team to get short term gain like hertz and the huns have done.err, what excactly do you mean?winning too many leagues/cups/getting tae finals o' the likes o' the uefa must be sheite right enough.

[hibs0666]

Didn't shock me tbh

We've just to hope HMRC come calling :agree:

I was really disappointed that the programme didn't chase the source of the £18 million payment to the bank - I have a feeling that's where the real story might lie.

[heretoday]

I don't want Rangers to go out of business because that would mean Hearts would have more chance of winning the league.

I'm sure others agree.

[IWasThere2016]

I was really disappointed that the programme didn't chase the source of the £18 million payment to the bank - I have a feeling that's where the real story might lie.

Correct. I doubt Whyte has (had) it - so how/where from was it borrowed, what is it secured against or who is he a front for?

[BSEJVT]

Rumours abound that he raised the money by raising finance to be repaid by season ticket sales.

Problem with that is where do their operating cost get met from when they are knocked out Europe first pop and to a lesser extent the League Cup?

Interesting times ahead I think

[Caversham Green]

I don't want Rangers to go out of business because that would mean Hearts would have more chance of winning the league.

I'm sure others agree.

Well now.

I had a look over in the Keechbag yesterday to see how they were reacting to their club failing to honour its players' contracts for a sixth time and noticed there was a 17-page thread about Rangers' financial problems. Nearly all were crowing about it and not one seems to have grasped that their club is in exactly the same predicament. They too are under HMRC investigation, probably for the same offence as the Huns given the Ogilvie connection, and Rangers losing their case would set a precedent, so they would have no defence. If the Huns go Hertz will follow.

If I was a Yam i'd be praying for my big cousins to win.

[Stonewall]

Good point but when did we last win a Derby yes we have a good bank balance but it must be a few years now CC Has not one a Derby i cabt recall Yogi doing the business I Wnt a quality team on the pitch i dont give a hoot about the bank balance

Then you are a fool.

[Kaiser1962]

Well now.

I had a look over in the Keechbag yesterday to see how they were reacting to their club failing to honour its players' contracts for a sixth time and noticed there was a 17-page thread about Rangers' financial problems. Nearly all were crowing about it and not one seems to have grasped that their club is in exactly the same predicament. They too are under HMRC investigation, probably for the same offence as the Huns given the Ogilvie connection, and Rangers losing their case would set a precedent, so they would have no defence. If the Huns go Hertz will follow.

If I was a Yam i'd be praying for my big cousins to win.


:agree:

[Aldo]

Our debt from the records currently stands at 5.6 million..for me that is managable and is reasonable for a club of our size.
Yes i want a winning quality team on the park but not at the cost the Yams are paying. That bubble has to implode at somepoint.

Sorry doint want to be in that sort of debt again...qwe have come too far for that. RP knows this.

[Golden Bear]

A shrewd cookie like David Murray would surely not have allowed this deal to go ahead if he had any misgivings surrounding the financial clout of Craig White and what his future intentions were for Rangers FC.

Just a thought.

[Leithenhibby]

A shrewd cookie like David Murray would surely not have allowed this deal to go ahead if he had any misgivings surrounding the financial clout of Craig White and what his future intentions were for Rangers FC.

Just a thought.


Was it not the bank that forced this issue :confused:

This was always going to be the case with this mob, and I can't help but think the the wee mob will follow soon. :wink:

[ScottB]

A shrewd cookie like David Murray would surely not have allowed this deal to go ahead if he had any misgivings surrounding the financial clout of Craig White and what his future intentions were for Rangers FC.

Just a thought.

Rangers were bleeding Murray's business white, he wanted / needed out, the fans were putting on big pressure to sell, so I suspect he has upped and left and washed his hands of the situation.

[greenginger]

Murray's business was a train crash anyway. The metals business had been sold, Bank loans converted to shares to keep it afloat, Premier Property Group with a portfolio of unletable properties, Call-Centres closed down etc etc.

Murray has still got considerable personal wealth but he was'nt going to risk it on the Huns with the HMRC gorilla breaking the Ibrox door down.

[timebomb]

A shrewd cookie like David Murray would surely not have allowed this deal to go ahead if he had any misgivings surrounding the financial clout of Craig White and what his future intentions were for Rangers FC.

Just a thought.

So shrewd he got Rangers into £80 million of debt

[green glory]

Apart from hearsay is there actually any evidence they are going into administration today? Obviously there's been nothing made public officiall yet, although that's not surprising.

I'm praying it's true though. :devil:

[nonshinyfinish]

So shrewd he got Rangers into £80 million of debt

Indeed, which would make him twice as shrewd as Vlad.

[timebomb]

Indeed, which would make him twice as shrewd as Vlad.


To be fair, I don't think there aremany teams in Scotland just now with a good financial future.

[Gettin' Auld]

To be fair, I don't think there aremany teams in Scotland just now with a good financial future.

Maybe so, but when it comes to debts, the yams and huns are in a league of their own........

[blackpoolhibs]

To be fair, I don't think there aremany teams in Scotland just now with a good financial future.

Some clubs debts are to be fair a little more sustainable than others. Some can be quite sure where they will be playing their football for the next 50 years, others not so, if at all.

[Stevie Reid]

Well now.

I had a look over in the Keechbag yesterday to see how they were reacting to their club failing to honour its players' contracts for a sixth time and noticed there was a 17-page thread about Rangers' financial problems. Nearly all were crowing about it and not one seems to have grasped that their club is in exactly the same predicament. They too are under HMRC investigation, probably for the same offence as the Huns given the Ogilvie connection, and Rangers losing their case would set a precedent, so they would have no defence. If the Huns go Hertz will follow.

If I was a Yam i'd be praying for my big cousins to win.

I did ask about this recently, I thought Hearts were up for the same thing.

Great news :greengrin

[greenlex]

Has this happened yet?

[green glory]

It's Friday!!!

Are they in administration yet?

What about now?

What about now?

What about now?

:pray: :stirrer:

[green glory]

???

:hyper:

[Sylar]

Even after watching the programme last night, I maintain the same stance I had earlier in the week.

It won't happen.

[green glory]

Ho ho ho!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2kVq2n8zAU

:applause:

[LALthehibeeGAL]

Heard from a Rangers Season Ticket holder that they will go into administration this Friday.
Sounds like an opportune time to announce it.
10 point deduction and they will still be top.

how come Dundee got 25 points deducted then? is it because it was their second time having "escaped" the 10 point deduction last time as it was only law after them and Motherwell went into administration!! Even so 15 points would be better.:greengrin
Lal:wink:

[IWasThere2016]

how come Dundee got 25 points deducted then? is it because it was their second time having "escaped" the 10 point deduction last time as it was only law after them and Motherwell went into administration!! Even so 15 points would be better.:greengrin
Lal:wink:

SPL rules differ from SFL rules. It was a repeat offence for the Dees also

[timebomb]

Some clubs debts are to be fair a little more sustainable than others. Some can be quite sure where they will be playing their football for the next 50 years, others not so, if at all.

I know that Hearts are F*****, I'm just making the best of it in the meantime!!

This is a serious question and I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Hibs board have been Wax Lyrical about making profits in the last 5 years or so but looking at the accounts for the last few years they have made an operating loss of around 1.7 million a year. This has been covered / converted into profit each year by selling players for excellent money.

I'd argue just now that there isn't many if any in the Hibs team who would command a sizeable fee (in the Fletcher / Brown / Whittaker) mold. They lost £900k (give or take) and that included bringing in a profit of circa £1million in transfer fees.

Where does that leave Hibs business model in the next 2-3 years if no saleable assets come through.

Will they still be losing £1.5 mill+ a year and if so with a current debt of around £5 million then that could get up to the 8/9 million mark fairly quickly.

[blackpoolhibs]

I know that Hearts are F*****, I'm just making the best of it in the meantime!!

This is a serious question and I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Hibs board have been Wax Lyrical about making profits in the last 5 years or so but looking at the accounts for the last few years they have made an operating loss of around 1.7 million a year. This has been covered / converted into profit each year by selling players for excellent money.

I'd argue just now that there isn't many if any in the Hibs team who would command a sizeable fee (in the Fletcher / Brown / Whittaker) mold. They lost £900k (give or take) and that included bringing in a profit of circa £1million in transfer fees.

Where does that leave Hibs business model in the next 2-3 years if no saleable assets come through.

Will they still be losing £1.5 mill+ a year and if so with a current debt of around £5 million then that could get up to the 8/9 million mark fairly quickly.

What are my thoughts? My thoughts mean diddly squat, i know what will happen. Our club will not let itself get into an unsustainable debt. They will reign in the spending, while looking for more investment, but they will not let the club get into trouble.

They will appoint a new manager soon, and keep their fingers and toes crossed they have got the right one this time.

If they have, revenue will rise. If not more of the same.

[Kaiser1962]

I did ask about this recently, I thought Hearts were up for the same thing.

Great news :greengrin


There are a number of English clubs waiting for the outcome with baited breath.

[Dr Jimmy]

There are a number of English clubs waiting for the outcome with baited breath. Yep, Rangers are first and clubs in both England & Scotland are next. HMRC are viewing the alleged misuse of the EBT system as threat to the whole PAYE system and are going for it big time. This is very very serious for the clubs involved.

[ancient hibee]

It seems that HMRC regard the concept as OK but Rangers have gone adrift in the mechanics.The way it's supposed to work is that a charitable foundation is set up and the money is paid into that and the player then applies for a (non repayable)loan.Rangers set up the scheme but then missed out some of the middle man system and in effect just paid out to the player-this is a big no no.

[Kaiser1962]

It seems that HMRC regard the concept as OK but Rangers have gone adrift in the mechanics.The way it's supposed to work is that a charitable foundation is set up and the money is paid into that and the player then applies for a (non repayable)loan.Rangers set up the scheme but then missed out some of the middle man system and in effect just paid out to the player-this is a big no no.


Lets hope Hearts have done the same. :agree:

[Caversham Green]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016bh4z/BBC_Scotland_Investigates_2011_Rangers_The_Inside_ Story/

Thanks for that TQM. It's more a muck-raking exercise against Whyte than anything new about RFC, but intriguing nevertheless. One thing though, I thought the SFA/SPL had rules about previously disqualified directors owning member clubs. If Whyte was disqualified until 2007, is he even eligible to own Rangers?

Maybe I'm thinking about English clubs.

[Caversham Green]

To clarify the HoMFC position, since their accounts to 31 July 2008 were published (a few weeks ago) the following note has appeared under Contingent Liabilities:


At the date of sign off of the financial statements, the company is subject of an ongoing investigation by HMRC. At this stage no indication has been given of the liklihood or extent of any potential unrecorded tax liabililities.

I don't know if this relates to an EBT or not, nor should anyone else apart from those directly involved in the investigation, but it does seem likely given the timing of the investigation and the fact that HoMFC employed someone who was previously heavily involved with Rangers. As regards EBTs themselves, I've never been directly involved with one, so I don't know a lot about them, but I can't see how they could possibly be applied legitimately to short-contract and transient employees such as footballers.

[grunt]

To clarify the HoMFC position, since their accounts to 31 July 2008 were published (a few weeks ago) You've got a bit of a time warp thing going on there CG. It may well say that in the 2008 accounts, but the 2010 accounts have a slightly differently worded note, same first sentence, second sentence is, "At this stage, it is not possible to quantify the extent of any potential unrecorded tax liabilities".

[Caversham Green]

You've got a bit of a time warp thing going on there CG. It may well say that in the 2008 accounts, but the 2010 accounts have a slightly differently worded note, same first sentence, second sentence is, "At this stage, it is not possible to quantify the extent of any potential unrecorded tax liabilities".

I should have put some sort of smilie after the "a few weeks ago" comment.

The change in wording would indicate that they're not very confident about an outcome that's favourable to them.

[Caversham Green]

Whyte comes across as a reasonable and balanced individual here:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/interview_craig_whyte_owner_of_rangers_who_has_com e_out_fighting_against_tv_allegations_1_1925040

(Another smilie required?)

[Mikey]

To clarify the HoMFC position, since their accounts to 31 July 2008 were published (a few weeks ago) the following note has appeared under Contingent Liabilities:



I don't know if this relates to an EBT or not, nor should anyone else apart from those directly involved in the investigation, but it does seem likely given the timing of the investigation and the fact that HoMFC employed someone who was previously heavily involved with Rangers. As regards EBTs themselves, I've never been directly involved with one, so I don't know a lot about them, but I can't see how they could possibly be applied legitimately to short-contract and transient employees such as footballers.

That'll be the SFA President.

"Excuse me Mr Romanov, this worked a treat at Rangers........"

I hope Vlad sues him :greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

Whyte comes across as a reasonable and balanced individual here:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/interview_craig_whyte_owner_of_rangers_who_has_com e_out_fighting_against_tv_allegations_1_1925040

(Another smilie required?)


Doesn't look like he's a man that holds a grudge.........

[greenginger]

To clarify the HoMFC position, since their accounts to 31 July 2008 were published (a few weeks ago) the following note has appeared under Contingent Liabilities:



I don't know if this relates to an EBT or not, nor should anyone else apart from those directly involved in the investigation, but it does seem likely given the timing of the investigation and the fact that HoMFC employed someone who was previously heavily involved with Rangers. As regards EBTs themselves, I've never been directly involved with one, so I don't know a lot about them, but I can't see how they could possibly be applied legitimately to short-contract and transient employees such as footballers.

I can't see any obvious references in their accounts to payments into an EBT but I dare say they could be hidden under another entry or made by UBIG direct and charged to the Club as " registration fees " or "management charges ".

Can you see anything C. G. ?

.

[Caversham Green]

I can't see any obvious references in their accounts to payments into an EBT but I dare say they could be hidden under another entry or made by UBIG direct and charged to the Club as " registration fees " or "management charges ".

Can you see anything C. G. ?

.

They would normally go under Staff Costs and be disclosed separately in the notes and there's nothing like that in the Yams accounts. It wouldn't be that difficult to avoid disclosing them, but likewise the investigation might be about something else entirely.

[greenginger]

They would normally go under Staff Costs and be disclosed separately in the notes and there's nothing like that in the Yams accounts. It wouldn't be that difficult to avoid disclosing them, but likewise the investigation might be about something else entirely.

I'm certain when EBT's first became big news in football, I think at the time of Portsmouth troubles, the two Scottish clubs mentioned were the Huns and Hertz. :aok:

[Jack]

They would normally go under Staff Costs and be disclosed separately in the notes and there's nothing like that in the Yams accounts. It wouldn't be that difficult to avoid disclosing them, but likewise the investigation might be about something else entirely. What would be the position for paying players though another country or club, say Kaunas ;-), whether on loan or not which I understand was the case with a number of hertz players?

[Hibernia Na Eir]

I imagine I would not be alone on saying tatty bye to the blue lot and/or maroon odd balls....
wind them both up. no loss to this country.

[pacorosssco]

I imagine I would not be alone on saying tatty bye to the blue lot and/or maroon odd balls....
wind them both up. no loss to this country.

No Sir you would most certainly not.

Note to Taxman

BELIEVE.
NO SURRENDER.

[BEEJ]

I know that Hearts are F*****, I'm just making the best of it in the meantime!!

This is a serious question and I'm curious to know your thoughts on this.

Hibs board have been Wax Lyrical about making profits in the last 5 years or so but looking at the accounts for the last few years they have made an operating loss of around 1.7 million a year. This has been covered / converted into profit each year by selling players for excellent money.

I'd argue just now that there isn't many if any in the Hibs team who would command a sizeable fee (in the Fletcher / Brown / Whittaker) mold. They lost £900k (give or take) and that included bringing in a profit of circa £1million in transfer fees.

Where does that leave Hibs business model in the next 2-3 years if no saleable assets come through.

Will they still be losing £1.5 mill+ a year and if so with a current debt of around £5 million then that could get up to the 8/9 million mark fairly quickly.
The Hibs Board have anticipated this issue and implemented significant cost reductions for the current financial year.

Meantime all efforts should be directed at ensuring that our income starts to rise again as a result of better team performances and results.

In short, these are difficult times, but nothing like the financial quagmire that your team finds itself in.

[Caversham Green]

What would be the position for paying players though another country or club, say Kaunas ;-), whether on loan or not which I understand was the case with a number of hertz players?

That's a difficult question to answer without knowing more about the loan and employment contracts - it's a vast and complicated subject. It could be though, that the Revenue are objecting to pseudo-loan arrangements where the players were effectively HoMFC employees but are paid and taxed through Lithuania while HoMFC pay loan fees to Kaunas (for example). There's more than a hint of money laundering about that and the cost would still go under Staff Costs in HoMFC's accounts. I doubt if they'd have taken more than two years to investigate that though.

Like Greenginger, I thought HoMFC had been mentioned in the press in relation to EBT investigations.

[Andy74]

Craig Whyte has just walked into the BA lounge. Stunning bird with him! Interestingly all the ESPN crew are in too. Let's see if there's any chat!

[blackpoolhibs]

Craig Whyte has just walked into the BA lounge. Stunning bird with him! Interestingly all the ESPN crew are in too. Let's see if there's any cash!

Ammended the error for you.

[Andy74]

Ammended the error for you.

Just filled his bag with free mini cheddars. That probably answers that!

[green glory]

So are we waiting till the 5th November (ironic) to see what the future holds for RFC?

Financial problems aside, considering Alistair Johnston's "we have a saying in these parts" interview. Can the public, the police and the Scottish Government now be in any doubt that sectarian hatred has always existed in the corridors of power in Ibrox? Rangers clearly have never had the slightest intention of curbing the excesses of their fans. After all what would they be without it? At Ibrox a few weeks ago, some of their 'fans' were handing out leaflets incredibly with a couple of Celtic supporters in tow.

It might be a worthwhile first step to ban national flags at club matches, it only brings politics into the ground, for what is a game of sport.

Scotland's Disgrace.

And the maroon lot aren't much better. :jamboak: