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View Full Version : Financial Results Out - £900,000 Loss



oldbutdim
18-10-2011, 08:56 AM
8th November.

Could be lively.
:agree:


ADMIN EDIT - The accounts can be downloaded in post 25 in this thread.

Darth Hibbie
18-10-2011, 08:57 AM
AGM on 8th Nov. Loss for first time in seven years.

Tha Cabbage Kid
18-10-2011, 08:58 AM
AGM on 8th Nov. Loss for first time in seven years.

thats because no-one wants to buy any of our players............wonder why?

TheEastTerrace
18-10-2011, 08:58 AM
AGM on 8th Nov. Loss for first time in seven years.

BBC's Brian McLaughlin reporting a £900,000 loss and £5.9M debt. Turnover at £7M

Gatecrasher
18-10-2011, 09:01 AM
thats because no-one wants to buy any of our players............wonder why?

***** team = no money from fans or transfer fees. Time for the board to get their act together or bugger off

Darth Hibbie
18-10-2011, 09:02 AM
BBC's Brian McLaughlin reporting a £900,000 loss and £5.9M debt. Turnover at £7M

:agree:

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20111018/201011-financial-results-_2262950_2485466

(http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20111018/201011-financial-results-_2262950_2485466)On the official site. They are not unexpected tbh. The AGM is going to be interesting though.

BEEJ
18-10-2011, 09:09 AM
thats because no-one wants to buy any of our players............wonder why?
Those financial results will include the proceeds from the sale of Stokes, Bamba and Zemmama.

Going forward, we have very limited options for asset sales.

Golden Bear
18-10-2011, 09:11 AM
And the hole is getting bigger as each week progresses.

Depressing times indeed.

blackpoolhibs
18-10-2011, 09:11 AM
Well they have known these figures for a while, and were probably praying we'd turn things around. We will see just what these people are made of now.

down the slope
18-10-2011, 09:12 AM
The clown is still backing CC or so it seems
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/20111018/201011-financial-results-_2262950_2485466

Just goes to prove those who run our club know nothing about football.

MrSmith
18-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Those financial results will include the proceeds from the sale of Stokes, Bamba and Zemmama.

Going forward, we have very limited options for asset sales.

At this precise time... i think we are looking downward instead of forward! The answers are all there to see but our board seem unable to admit to their failings!

hibiedude
18-10-2011, 09:20 AM
8th November.

Could be lively.
:agree:

It's SIMPLE Hibs are selling a product no one wants to buy hence the loss.

Cropley10
18-10-2011, 09:25 AM
Well they have known these figures for a while, and were probably praying we'd turn things around. We will see just what these people are made of now.

Easy to sell players and to redevelop property. Much harder to put a quality product on the pitch. Don't hold your breath for any significant change. We'll muddle along with CC to save face, unless ICT start winning.

lucky
18-10-2011, 09:25 AM
Poor team now losing money of it. Do you think Rodders will link the two? £6m in debt, I hope this includes the mortgages on the west and north stands. Is there any truths Rods leaving the club to run the Edinburgh tram project? They are crying out for his skills.

IWasThere2016
18-10-2011, 09:33 AM
BBC's Brian McLaughlin reporting a £900,000 loss and £5.9M debt. Turnover at £7M


Those financial results will include the proceeds from the sale of Stokes, Bamba and Zemmama.

Going forward, we have very limited options for asset sales.


And the hole is getting bigger as each week progresses.

Depressing times indeed.

As I keep saying the baw is burst.

We have lost over 5k a week in average attendances since 2006. That's -35%.

That's a lot of turnover - while the cost base has increased for East and East Mains.

The Board's pay to income will be revealing. We are run by self-serving amateurs IMHO.

DC_Hibs
18-10-2011, 09:54 AM
They aint seen nothing yet as next years figures will surely be a lot worse.

The only saving grace I can see would be cup runs as there's no players likely to generate a decent fee like we have relied on in previous years to break even.

Turnover only decreased by 100k yet we have a loss of 900k. What's the likely reason behind this?
Higher funding costs (West stand?) and East Mains running costs.

hibs0666
18-10-2011, 09:58 AM
They aint seen nothing yet as next years figures will surely be a lot worse.

The only saving grace I can see would be cup runs as there's no players likely to generate a decent fee like we have relied on in previous years to break even.

Turnover only decreased by 100k yet we have a loss of 900k. What's the likely reason behind this?
Higher funding costs (West stand?) and East Mains running costs.

Fewer transfer fees.

smurf
18-10-2011, 10:06 AM
We exited the Scottish Cup early January before the manager was able the strengthen the side.

What utter tosh.

Phil MaGlass
18-10-2011, 10:11 AM
With the drop in attendances this season wait until they release next years losses, could be alot higher.

The Sea-gull
18-10-2011, 10:12 AM
I see Rod couldn't resist using the statement to blindly back CC again!

Yes, maybe we were pumped out the cup before CC had a chance to bring in new players but I have said it before (as have many) and will say it again, there has been precious little since CC was put in charge to suggest an upturn on the park is likely anytime soon.

Incidently, there hasn't been any indication to suggest that the current crop of Hibs players would have fared better against Ayr in last season's Scottish cup than those who played at the time.

We should never be using excuses like "the manager has not had time to bring in new players" to explain a defeat to a second division team after having had two chances to beat them.

PS - a year ago today CC was appointed. I'd suggest the general mood among fans is much worse now than 12 months ago.

hibs0666
18-10-2011, 10:13 AM
We exited the Scottish Cup early January before the manager was able the strengthen the side.

What utter tosh.

There's no point in focusing on minor details. A concerted effort will be required by everyone who holds the club dear if the situation is to be improved any time soon.

Holmesdale Hibs
18-10-2011, 10:20 AM
Article says that we made a loss of £0.9M in a year that includes income from the sale of Stokes, Bamba and Zemamma. Must have been circa £1.5M total which is very worrying. Given attendances have dropped and we've no one else to sell, does this mean we can expect a loss of £2.5M+ next season? Even a graduate from the jambos school of finance would find this worrying.

smurf
18-10-2011, 10:24 AM
There's no point in focusing on minor details. A concerted effort will be required by everyone who holds the club dear if the situation is to be improved any time soon.

The concerted effort is facing up to the reality of our situation. The position of the dud appointed by our chairman is untenable and quite frankly so is his.

Northernhibee
18-10-2011, 10:24 AM
You know, I look at that and think 300k for Clueless, the drop in revenue his eyebleeding product has caused, and the inevitable cost of compensation in ditching him, the 150k we paid Newcastle, could be a 750k wrong decision or more that the board made.

It's ****ing depressing.

Mikey
18-10-2011, 11:34 AM
Accounts attached.

Or you can see them here........

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?219788-The-Accounts-To-31st-July-2011-See-Them-Here

That thread is closed as it will end up in The Vault shortly.

Andy74
18-10-2011, 11:46 AM
As I keep saying the baw is burst.

We have lost over 5k a week in average attendances since 2006. That's -35%.

That's a lot of turnover - while the cost base has increased for East and East Mains.

The Board's pay to income will be revealing. We are run by self-serving amateurs IMHO.

Or your man is just a poor manager and has lost us fans and income since he arrived?

.Sean.
18-10-2011, 11:53 AM
Get rid of Clueless. From the day he was appointed he's been sapping my enthusiasm for the club, and it's now at an all-time low. There are thousands of others like me. He has no passion for the club and it's abundantly clear for all to see. Petrie, Hyland and Lyndsey can all be held accountable for the predicament we're in and, IMO, it's down to one man to stop the rot. Over to you, Farmer.

IWasThere2016
18-10-2011, 11:56 AM
Or your man is just a poor manager and has lost us fans and income since he arrived?

:crazy: In what month of 2006 did 'my' man start? Your pal Rod is doing a fine job however :rolleyes:

.Sean.
18-10-2011, 11:58 AM
We exited the Scottish Cup early January before the manager was able the strengthen the side.What utter tosh. Must admit Smurf, that raised a chuckle. The way the board explained the cup exit you'd think we'd been put out by Barcelona and not the mighty Ayr United. I think the fact CC couldn't get a result against Ayr United in 180 minutes says all there is to say about his managerial 'skills'. Get the **** tae ****.

MussiHibee
18-10-2011, 12:22 PM
Am I reading that Mr Petrie got a £13K pay rise?

blackpoolhibs
18-10-2011, 12:33 PM
Am I reading that Mr Petrie got a £13K pay rise?

I'd have thought it would have been pinkie or perkie that got the rise, they are the ones doing more of the work these days. Petrie is semi retired he'd have us believe. Although i dont think anything will get passed before he's been through it.

steakbake
18-10-2011, 12:44 PM
Am I reading that Mr Petrie got a £13K pay rise?

Hmm, kind of, but he lost other benefits. He's being paid 1,002 more than the previous year but that is a crude figure as some of it is a reduction in pension contribution, a reduction in bonus and benefits in kind but an increase in salary.

So yeah, his take home pay is 13k more, but cuts to other benefits, bonuses etc mean that is 1,002 in actual fact - and that is before tax.

Correction - whoever the highest paid director is....

Mibbes Aye
18-10-2011, 12:44 PM
Am I reading that Mr Petrie got a £13K pay rise?

Don't see that quite as clear-cut myself.

It's a near 20% pay cut for the board.

Petrie's statement says that the total cost has come down, including him - that could suggest he didn't get a pay rise.

The highest-paid director this year got a very slightly better package than the highest-paid director last year. That doesn't necessarily mean they were the same person

Smartie
18-10-2011, 12:47 PM
They aint seen nothing yet as next years figures will surely be a lot worse.

They will. But most alarming will be the year after. The current figures are poor, and they've included player sales and better crowds from last year.

There's a lot of talk on here of the fans we've lost - somebody said 35% since 2006. But what about who we are still to lose? We have had crowds this season in the region of 8500 which is drastically down on the last few years. Personally I think these figures are really quite good against the backdrop of the current financial climate and the fare on show at Easter Road/ CC's sweetie voyeurism over the summer etc. Basically as I see it we still have 8500 fans still to lose.

I would have previously considered myself to be die-hard. There's nothing else I'd rather do on a Saturday afternoon than watch Hibs. But that's really changing. I have a season ticket so it's already paid for, I really resent giving up my valuable free time to watch football like we saw in the first 45 minutes on Saturday. How many of those 8500 will be lost next year? I wouldn't mind betting a fair few. This will reflect on the financial figures the following year - hence, the following year's figures will be the worst.

The board messed up on a massive scale when they appointed CC. After a succession of managers who failed and only lasted a short space of time they had to get someone who they could back, who could show promise, could build for the long-term. Instead they got the worst of them all so far. Only stubbornness, arrogance and the fact that they have to stick with someone, is keeping him in a job. Certainly not any signs that he's making progress.

Otherwise I think the board are doing all they can to back the managers - 69% wage to turnover ratio really ain't bad. And I'm sure it will probably be higher in years to come. They just keep appointing duffers.

These poor figures are just the start. Unless CC miraculously turns things around (or the board do the right thing and punt him) then the financial results are only going to get worse - a lot worse.

Hibs07p
18-10-2011, 12:48 PM
So CC will be sacked shortly before 8th November, then the board will be able to report "positive developments". I hope the new appointment will have been worth waiting for though.

kennyh
18-10-2011, 12:54 PM
" 69% wage to turnover ratio really ain't bad. "

Thats true but Turnover will be down masively this season with no transfer income and crowds down, we will now begin running up debts and posibly run at over 100% for a year or two like our neighbours across the city. Worrying timed indeed for all concerned with Hibernian

matty_f
18-10-2011, 12:55 PM
I'd have thought it would have been pinkie or perkie that got the rise, they are the ones doing more of the work these days. Petrie is semi retired he'd have us believe. Although i dont think anything will get passed before he's been through it.

Did it not say that there had been no staff wage increases? Haven't had a good chance to read through it all, just noted that bit from the release on the fishy site.

blackpoolhibs
18-10-2011, 01:01 PM
Did it not say that there had been no staff wage increases? Haven't had a good chance to read through it all, just noted that bit from the release on the fishy site.

Not read it either matty, just commenting on what was posted here. Probably should have waited until i had. :dunno: If there has been a rise, i would have thought Petrie would be the last one to receive it, as he's been cutting back his work over the last few months.

Joe Baker II
18-10-2011, 02:00 PM
What is the real stupidity in Petrie's email is that he is highlighting that building the new East Stand has cost Hibs season ticket holders. This number probably exceeds 2,000 or so, and if the average price of ST £300 and maybe more if it was mainly full price ST-holders who have given up, that is probably the bulk of the £900,000 loss explained.

But despite the fact any fan could have told him this was a certainty (particularly after the cack-handed way the club handled the transition to the new East Stand), he has done absolutely nothing that might have reversed this, making these people even less likkel to renew. And the fact I think no-one expected otherwise also explains the reduced sales.

And all this is nothing to do with Calderwood, do not rate him but the idea that sacking him will make any difference to the downward spiral is frankly ludicrous.

smurf
18-10-2011, 02:11 PM
Did it not say that there had been no staff wage increases? Haven't had a good chance to read through it all, just noted that bit from the release on the fishy site.

I read that there has been no increases for three years so interesting if boardroom costs have actually risen...

The Falcon
18-10-2011, 02:39 PM
I read that there has been no increases for three years so interesting if boardroom costs have actually risen...


They've not.

Saorsa
18-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Oh dear, looks like the great master plan of the financial genius running our club has gone tae pot now that there is nothing of any value left tae sell (couldnae see that coming :rolleyes: ). All the while product on the park has gone down the pan year on year on his watch and is so poor naebody wants tae pay for it any more. Now we'll see how good (or not) he/they really are tae get out of this mess.

ancienthibby
18-10-2011, 03:07 PM
As the Annual report has now arrived at ancienttowers, I can post some responses to folks' questions, in no particular order:

In the summary section on page 2, interesting to see that our loss for the year is fully reflective of the drop in net transfer fees from £2.3 mln to £1.0 mln.
The usual problem is seen with the Net Debt figure which a few commentators (e.g. Radio Scotland) equate to Total Debt. For the record Gross Debt is £7.9 mln, an increase of £1.9 mln last year.
Not sure who provided this extra debt, but does not look like the Banks, as we seemingly have received a sub of £1.25 mln from the parent co. Wonder if this funding by STF will trigger a desire to get shot of all this?? Also, the pressure on cash is only going to increase throughout this season.
Directors' remuneration in the year fell sharply from £493k to £409k. Also, I suspect that the highest paid director is Scott Lindsay, who received a £13k increase in base salary.
Still confuddles me why we need both a Finance Director and a Company Secretary. In my last job, I did both functions, and we had a higher turnover than Hibs!
Someone asked a question about the rise, or not, in overall wages. The Report says not at £4.8 mln, but if you look at the actual numbers they show a very modest increase from £4.798 mln to £4.803 mln. Nicely rounds to £4.8 mln!
Players and management numbers were up from 67 to 71 and I guess that reflects part of the 'Hughes legacy'.
If anyone has any other questions that I might be capable of answering then please post, though the real expert in these matter is, of course, the Green man from Caversham.

Ray_
18-10-2011, 03:13 PM
Oh dear, looks like the great master plan of the financial genius running our club has gone tae pot now that there is nothing of any value left tae sell (couldnae see that coming :rolleyes: ). All the while product on the park has gone down the pan year on year on his watch and is so poor naebody wants tae pay for it any more. Now we'll see how good (or not) he/they really are tae get out of this mess.

Was always going to happen with our much heralded chairman running things. I see little of him in the press those days going on about his successful check list for appointing managers. To be accurate, there has only been a small part of his involvement in the club when he could realistically claim a successful appointment, that's one hell of a failure rate for what is the most important position in any club.

BEEJ
18-10-2011, 03:23 PM
Someone asked a question about the rise, or not, in overall wages. The Report says not at £4.8 mln, but if you look at the actual numbers they show a very modest increase from £4.798 mln to £4.803 mln. Nicely rounds to £4.8 mln!

Players and management numbers were up from 67 to 71 and I guess that reflects part of the 'Hughes legacy'.

The salaries figure for 2010/11 will also include the one-off costs of Hughes exit and CC's arrival a year ago.

ancienthibby
18-10-2011, 03:27 PM
The salaries figure for 2010/11 will also include the one-off costs of Hughes exit and CC's arrival a year ago.

You could say that reflects a pattern we have become used to these past few years!!:greengrin

BEEJ
18-10-2011, 03:44 PM
You could say that reflects a pattern we have become used to these past few years!!:greengrin
True.

Not exactly a unique event down at ER in recent years. :wink:

NYHibby
18-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Still confuddles me why we need both a Finance Director and a Company Secretary. In my last job, I did both functions, and we had a higher turnover than Hibs!
According to his Linkedin profile (http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/garry-o-hagan/5/61a/829), he has duties outside that of the normal company secretary role, such as compliance, travel secretary and matchday operations. You could argue that this job shouldn't be a director, but we have to pay someone to do these things. Plus I'm sure that he isn't paid that highly.

ancienthibby
18-10-2011, 04:37 PM
According to his Linkedin profile (http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/garry-o-hagan/5/61a/829), he has duties outside that of the normal company secretary role, such as compliance, travel secretary and matchday operations. You could argue that this job shouldn't be a director, but we have to pay someone to do these things. Plus I'm sure that he isn't paid that highly.

That is indeed within the remit of a CoSec.

As to the rest, a part-time office person on 3 days a week could do all of that and more!!

sesoim
18-10-2011, 05:38 PM
You know, I look at that and think 300k for Clueless, the drop in revenue his eyebleeding product has caused, and the inevitable cost of compensation in ditching him, the 150k we paid Newcastle, could be a 750k wrong decision or more that the board made.

It's ****ing depressing.



Plus we missed out on top six and will miss out again if we don't act soon. £80k per position plus tv revenue for playing in the top six has cost us a fair bit. It shows the mentality of CC that he just brushed off the 3-1 defeat against Aberdeen as if it was a learning curve, even though that one game even cost us £80k, which maybe would have allowed us to sign a better CB than the jokers we have played there this season.

muzzhfc
18-10-2011, 05:47 PM
not as bad as i was expecting tbh. if things keep going this way though, then we are well and trully goosed. im reminded strongly of the mr blobby days. pish football, rising debts, etc

Big Frank
18-10-2011, 08:18 PM
STF has £136,000,000 according to this years Sunday Time Rich List. He could give Hibernian FC £7,900,000 and clear everything.

It wouldn't even touch the sides.

No debt. Nada. Hibernians' fans not talking about profits and lossess, interest here and debt there. 100% concentration on whats (not) going on onfield.

His company already looks much better.

mon Sir Tom, you know it makes sense.



:faf:

nortonhibby
18-10-2011, 08:33 PM
Well they have known these figures for a while, and were probably praying we'd turn things around. We will see just what these people are made of now.

We have no sellable players:confused:

nortonhibby
18-10-2011, 08:36 PM
Oh dear, looks like the great master plan of the financial genius running our club has gone tae pot now that there is nothing of any value left tae sell (couldnae see that coming :rolleyes: ). All the while product on the park has gone down the pan year on year on his watch and is so poor naebody wants tae pay for it any more. Now we'll see how good (or not) he/they really are tae get out of this mess.

RP Must go now:flag:

Sumner
18-10-2011, 08:55 PM
If only an English club had offered
money for Calderwood, this could have
taken a big chunk of the annual loss
and taken a dud manager away,
if only that had happened, Petrie
would have snapped at that offer..


.. oh wait. FFS :Ummm:

The Green Goblin
18-10-2011, 09:01 PM
I still don't see what East Mains has done to help us, except help us further into debt with little/no return on the park or with results taking into account what was paid for it and how much it still costs us every year.

GG

The Falcon
19-10-2011, 07:36 AM
Was always going to happen with our much heralded chairman running things. I see little of him in the press those days going on about his successful check list for appointing managers. To be accurate, there has only been a small part of his involvement in the club when he could realistically claim a successful appointment, that's one hell of a failure rate for what is the most important position in any club.


Do the vast majority of football clubs not lose money?

The Falcon
19-10-2011, 07:37 AM
If only an English club had offered
money for Calderwood, this could have
taken a big chunk of the annual loss
and taken a dud manager away,
if only that had happened, Petrie
would have snapped at that offer..


.. oh wait. FFS :Ummm:


Its a pity none did then.

Caversham Green
19-10-2011, 09:19 AM
As the Annual report has now arrived at ancienttowers, I can post some responses to folks' questions, in no particular order:

In the summary section on page 2, interesting to see that our loss for the year is fully reflective of the drop in net transfer fees from £2.3 mln to £1.0 mln.
The usual problem is seen with the Net Debt figure which a few commentators (e.g. Radio Scotland) equate to Total Debt. For the record Gross Debt is £7.9 mln, an increase of £1.9 mln last year.
Not sure who provided this extra debt, but does not look like the Banks, as we seemingly have received a sub of £1.25 mln from the parent co. Wonder if this funding by STF will trigger a desire to get shot of all this?? Also, the pressure on cash is only going to increase throughout this season.
Directors' remuneration in the year fell sharply from £493k to £409k. Also, I suspect that the highest paid director is Scott Lindsay, who received a £13k increase in base salary.
Still confuddles me why we need both a Finance Director and a Company Secretary. In my last job, I did both functions, and we had a higher turnover than Hibs!
Someone asked a question about the rise, or not, in overall wages. The Report says not at £4.8 mln, but if you look at the actual numbers they show a very modest increase from £4.798 mln to £4.803 mln. Nicely rounds to £4.8 mln!
Players and management numbers were up from 67 to 71 and I guess that reflects part of the 'Hughes legacy'.
If anyone has any other questions that I might be capable of answering then please post, though the real expert in these matter is, of course, the Green man from Caversham.

Cheers AH. I tried to reply with various quotes, but my post went all funny, so I'll have another go:

Loss for the year - The underlying loss was £300 lower than 2010, but that was all because of a reduction in amortisation of players' contracts, otherwise very little difference.

Net debt - This is commonly used as a headline figure, but it's very misleading, particularly for football clubs. The £1.25m from the parent company is listed as an ordinary creditor, so does not hit the Net or Gross Debt figures. The additional £1.9 debt is 'due to the draw-down of the term loan facility in respect of the East Stand' according to the Directors' Report - i.e. the bank.

Directors' remuneration - the 2010 figure was reported as £403k plus £89k paid to a director who left during the year (Tim Gardiner) so the saving was already in place at the start of this year.We don't know for certain that Scott Lindsay got a £13k increase. The highest paid director last year was named as RP and no other director received a remuneration package of over £100,000. It's quite possible that SL recived an £88k basic last year but his benefits didn't take him over the £100k mark.

Company Secretary - we don't actually need a Co Sec at all any more and I don't think we have one. Garry O'Hagan is the Club Secretary which is a different function and I think is a requirement of SFA membership.

One final point to note, Accrual and deferred income, which is where 2011/12 season ticket income goes if it is collected before 31 July fell by £1.7m. It may not all be down to season ticket sales, but that is a very worrying figure.

Caversham Green
19-10-2011, 09:21 AM
I still don't see what East Mains has done to help us, except help us further into debt with little/no return on the park or with results taking into account what was paid for it and how much it still costs us every year.

GG

We didn't actually increase debt for East Mains and total non-staff costs have actually gone down each year since we opened it. I agree we're not seeing the return we should from it though.

IWasThere2016
19-10-2011, 05:26 PM
These are poor results - that will - unless we win a cup or go on an unbelieveable unbbeaten run - only get worse in 2011/12.

Ray_
19-10-2011, 06:19 PM
Do the vast majority of football clubs not lose money?


They do when they are run as bad as this one!

Dashing Bob S
19-10-2011, 06:50 PM
Having a good business plan is okay, but Tache should be learning that poor management, bad performances, terrible results and the subsequent declining gates don't form part of such a business plan.

O'Neill please.

The Falcon
19-10-2011, 07:31 PM
They do when they are run as bad as this one!


So we are the exception because we're badly run? Every other club is making money except us?

Kaiser1962
19-10-2011, 08:02 PM
These are poor results - that will - unless we win a cup or go on an unbelieveable unbbeaten run - only get worse in 2011/12.

They are, of that there is no doubt, and I would expect this season to be worse. That said of all the clubs that have competed in the SPL over the last ten seasons we are the only one that has traded profitably over that period.