Are we being too harsh?

[matty_f]

No defeats in September, and the two that have come in in October away to the Champions, and at home to the team clear in second.

Are we being too harsh with the reaction from yesterday? I dunno... Just putting it out there.

[hibsfan7]

maybe we are but let us see how we do in the cup against celtic



:hibees:hibees:hibees

[blackpoolhibs]

Septembers unbeaten run was down to luck. :wink:

[SneakersO'Toole]

If only taking Sept and Octobers results into the equation then yes, there is probably an arguement for that Matty.

That said, its CC record since taking over that are worrying fans and righty so.

We can't afford to be selective with results IMO. The facts don't lie and unfortauntely if we continue along the same trend we are facing a relegation battle.

[ManBearPig]

I dont think its the results that are p***ing people off its the manner in which we are getting battered....

just putting that out there.

[Westie1875]

No defeats in September, and the two that have come in in October away to the Champions, and at home to the team clear in second.

Are we being too harsh with the reaction from yesterday? I dunno... Just putting it out there.

Its more the manner in which we lost yesterday than the fact we did for me, first half was the worst I can remember from a Hibs team (I missed the Aberdeen game which was apparently just as bad), the lack of effort and movement was unacceptable, there is absolutely no excuse for that.

[matty_f]

I dont think its the results that are p***ing people off its the manner in which we are getting battered.... just putting that out there. ooh i love it when folk feel the need to do that in their posts.Just putting that out there.Fwiw, i probably agree with the point you made.

[blackpoolhibs]

If we had last February and this Septembers results more frequently, we'd have been more consistent. I suppose i'm just a bit too greedy? :wink:

[ManBearPig]

Its more the manner in which we lost yesterday than the fact we did for me, first half was the worst I can remember from a Hibs team (I missed the Aberdeen game which was apparently just as bad), the lack of effort and movement was unacceptable, there is absolutely no excuse for that.


:agree::agree::agree:

[Northernhibee]

Septembers unbeaten run was down to luck. :wink: Yep. Drawing against teams we should beat isn't something to celebrate.

[Jim44]

Matty, I respect your bending over backwards to be fair to Calderwood but I think we are well, well beyond the point where he deserves any slack. He is a proven liability and I think he should be shown the door as soon as possible. I keep coming out in a cold sweat when I think of the reported £300K we might have got for his sub-standard services back in the summer. I bet Petrie has had a few sleepless hours since then thinking about one of his poorer decisions.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

An awful lot depends on your point of view. Calderwood said if we beat Motherwell at home, then it would be a major scalp. So maybe a one nil defeat is not all that bad?

[Mark79]

I would rather get beat trying our best. We don't even put up a challenge these days and that ain't good enough.

I fear we will go down and anyone who doesn't think that bunch of players could go down is mistaken.

I would guarantee we wouldn't get as easy a ride as we had previously getting out the 1st division either.

It's a case of waiting to see if Petrie fires him at a cost to us or calderwood walks for nothing. Hopefully judging by his body language after yesterday's match it could be the 2nd.

[Don Giovanni]

Septembers unbeaten run was down to luck. :wink: "Septembers unbeaten run" was down to a relatively easy run of fixtures. "Septembers unbeaten run" could quite quickly become a "pointless October"!

[CB_NO3]

No one is being harsh. I look at facts, we are rank rotten. We are one point of the bottom with a trip to Parkhead coming up. We have one really good player and the rest are either poor or could not give a toss.

[HIBEETILLIDIE]

An awful lot depends on your point of view. Calderwood said if we beat Motherwell at home, then it would be a major scalp. So maybe a one nil defeat is not all that bad?

Not wishing to argue with anyone but beating Motherwell a at home is regarded by our manager as a major scalp? is that what we have become?
The question that board and our manager should be answering is why are we unable to compete with St Mirren's, Motherwell's, Kilmarnock's Dundee United's etc? Or is a 20,000 all seated stadium and state of the art training facility the expected norm for a bottom 3 club?
i have watched Hibs for nearly 50 years now and this last two years is just about the worst i have ever scene, considering what we have had at our disposal and the standard of the oposition, including the bigot brothers and lithuanians!
It's all very sad and even more so for the fact that our owner and chairman seem happy to accept the garbage that has graced the jersey during the last two years. Mr Petrie's accountancy skills must be dwindling if even he can't see what is happening crowd wise with possibly worse to come!
I really do not see any light at the end of the tunnel-apart from the that of the relegation express!

[Don Giovanni]

No defeats in September, and the two that have come in in October away to the Champions, and at home to the team clear in second. Are we being too harsh with the reaction from yesterday? I dunno... Just putting it out there. As said elsewhere, Matty, its the poor performances which are worrying. There is no sign of improvement in the year CC has been in charge. If we're honest, it could have been a pasting yesterday. They hit the post, they hit the bar and had a couple of other good chances. We had a couple of half chances in reply but Motherwell thoroughly deserved their win.

[greenlex]

Harsh? Maybe but he has had about enough slack. He is coming to the end of his rope.He needs to deliver and deliver now.I think we are being harsh on the players if I am being honest. To wait till half time to change things was bordering on criminal. If we had been four down by then we ciuld have had no complaints.

[matty_f]

Matty, I respect your bending over backwards to be fair to Calderwood but I think we are well, well beyond the point where he deserves any slack. He is a proven liability and I think he should be shown the door as soon as possible. I keep coming out in a cold sweat when I think of the reported £300K we might have got for his sub-standard services back in the summer. I bet Petrie has had a few sleepless hours since then thinking about one of his poorer decisions.

I'm not bending over backwards to be fair to anyone, I was just posing a question. If you check my posts on other threads I've made my feelings clear about Calderwood and how unacceptable results have been.


As said elsewhere, Matty, its the poor performances which are worrying. There is no sign of improvement in the year CC has been in charge. If we're honest, it could have been a pasting yesterday. They hit the post, they hit the bar and had a couple of other good chances. We had a couple of half chances in reply but Motherwell thoroughly deserved their win.

Have the performances been that poor though? Some have, but we have also played well in games as well - St Johnstone were deservedly beaten, we defended poorly against United but were worth the draw, we were more or less across the board saying how the performance against the Huns was good, despite the defeat, the Motherwell cup game was a cracking performance bar half of the first half... Maybe I'm just in a little more of a reflective mood this morning than I was coming out of Easter Road yesterday. No question that Motherwell were head and shoulders better than us yesterday, certainly in the first half at any rate.


Harsh? Maybe but he has had about enough slack. He is coming to the end of his rope.He needs to deliver and deliver now.I think we are being harsh on the players if I am being honest. To wait till half time to change things was bordering on criminal. If we had been four down by then we ciuld have had no complaints.

:agree:

[snooky]

I dont think its the results that are p***ing people off its the manner in which we are getting battered....

just putting that out there.

:agree:

[connerg]

Yep. Drawing against teams we should beat isn't something to celebrate.

Got to agree with that, 5 home games against non old firm teams and 5 points out of a possible 15. :confused:

Are we going to beat these teams away from home to recoup the points?

[woody47]

Are we being too harsh?

NO!

[Don Giovanni]

[QUOTE=matty_f;2948318] Have the performances been that poor though? Some have, but we have also played well in games as well - St Johnstone were deservedly beaten, we defended poorly against United but were worth the draw, we were more or less across the board saying how the performance against the Huns was good, despite the defeat, the Motherwell cup game was a cracking performance bar half of the first half... Maybe I'm just in a little more of a reflective mood this morning than I was coming out of Easter Road yesterday. No question that Motherwell were head and shoulders better than us yesterday, certainly in the first half at any rate. /QUOTE] ...or how about Celtic at home (no shots on target), ICT away (snatched a winner having been outplayed), Killmarnock away and St.Mirren both completely outplayed us, Hearts away (another derby we failed to turn up), the Aberdeen game should have been stopped it was so bad, Pars & Dundee United games showcased our inability to simply defend. Now, I accept the games you've quoted, Matty, are more recent than the fixture I have selected from this season. But the most recent game of all was back to being rank rotten and I have very little confidence heading into away fixtures at St.Mirren & Celtic. (I won't even go into the ineptitude of last seasons "performances"). Bah humbug!

[silverhibee]

No defeats in September, and the two that have come in in October away to the Champions, and at home to the team clear in second.

Are we being too harsh with the reaction from yesterday? I dunno... Just putting it out there.


Harsh. No.


To kind. Yes.



:taxi for CC.

[matty_f]

...or how about Celtic at home (no shots on target), ICT away (snatched a winner having been outplayed), Killmarnock away and St.Mirren both completely outplayed us, Hearts away (another derby we failed to turn up), the Aberdeen game should have been stopped it was so bad, Pars & Dundee United games showcased our inability to simply defend. Now, I accept the games you've quoted, Matty, are more recent than the fixture I have selected from this season. But the most recent game of all was back to being rank rotten and I have very little confidence heading into away fixtures at St.Mirren & Celtic. (I won't even go into the ineptitude of last seasons "performances"). Bah humbug!

Celtc I give you, but we didn't have a good number of the players we have now, ICT - the notion that we were outplayed in that game is a myth that has grown arms and legs on here, we matched ICT throughout the game save for a 10 minute spell where they carved out a few chances towards the end of the 2nd half, but it was far from daylight robbery.

St Mirren deservedly beat us and have done well this season so far. Lennon's made some good signings and they are performing better than anyone really expected them to this season, but we should be beating them at Easter Road every day of the week. No excuse for getting a hiding from them (and they totally outplayed us that game).

The Aberdeen was a classic example of two teams being sh** scared to get beat from the other. Neither team wanted to be the one in the biggest crisis and so we got one of the worst 0-0 draws I have seen since a 0-0 under Yogi against St Johnstone the year before.

Dunfermline outplayed us from the moment we went 0-2 up, and we were lucky to hold onto a point, but first half we were well worth the lead, still as with St Mirren, we should be going to Dunfermline and winning every time, IMHO. Unacceptable result and performance.

The derby was unacceptable full stop. No excuses to be offered other than it was the first game for Towell and Griffiths, both of whom had literally been at the club days.

Dundee United game was just a bad example of defending poorly, other than the defence we actually played alright.

I don't know why I'm justifying (or maybe putting into context is a better way of expressing it) these games - I was at the majority of them and sat there, almost literally with my head in my hands out of sheer boredom and frustration at how far we have fallen. I'm not a CC fan, and for every performance like those against St Johnstone or Rangers, there are three or four or five performances like yesterday, and I'm even at the point of wondering why I'm bothering sorting out babysitters, or shift slides, or all the other nonsense I have to do to get to a game when it's just not enjoyable at all at the moment.

[basehibby]

I've had a good think about this and IMO the answer is NO - the fans are not being too harsh at all. CC has had two full transfer windows and a full round of SPL fixtures now, and the fact is that - so far - we are still showing relegation form. Persisting with CC is now more on the basis of a forlorn hope than an expectation that he will bring about any dramatic change in our fortunes.

The players he has brought in are solid if not spectacular and, saving Gary O'Connor, we are desperately short of that bit of real quality that is needed to make any sort of mark in the SPL. Zemama, Bamba and Riordan all had that bit of something special and they have not been adequately replaced IMO, leaving us weak at the back and woefully short of creativity.

I hate this managerial merry go round which has become the norm at ER and that's why I was happy that the advances from Forest and Brum were rejected in the summer. Well, we got that continuity which I so craved but so far this season it's made bugger all difference to the sub-mediocre fare being served up.

Motherwell for example are currently second top of the league and this, according to our manager, makes them a bit of a scalp to be prized. Compare and contrast our comparative fortunes. Motherwell - a club with only about HALF the turnover of Hibs - got themselves a new manager at the end of 2010 in Stuart McCall - he seems to have rejuvinated his team - they certainly made Hibs look second best on Saturday and they are delivering the dividends that matter to any football fan - results!

That is something that Calderwood has signally failed to do at Hibs and there comes a time where you just have to say - enough's enough, you've had your chance and it's time to go. I'd say that time is now - regardless of differing starts to the season, Motherwell are a team we should be expecting to beat at ER - a draw you could just about handle but saturday's defeat was just the latest in a long line of unacceptable results and it all adds up to a failure to deliver from CC.

[matty_f]

I've had a good think about this and IMO the answer is NO - the fans are not being too harsh at all. CC has had two full transfer windows and a full round of SPL fixtures now, and the fact is that - so far - we are still showing relegation form. Persisting with CC is now more on the basis of a forlorn hope than an expectation that he will bring about any dramatic change in our fortunes.

The players he has brought in are solid if not spectacular and, saving Gary O'Connor, we are desperately short of that bit of real quality that is needed to make any sort of mark in the SPL. Zemama, Bamba and Riordan all had that bit of something special and they have not been adequately replaced IMO, leaving us weak at the back and woefully short of creativity.

I hate this managerial merry go round which has become the norm at ER and that's why I was happy that the advances from Forest and Brum were rejected in the summer. Well, we got that continuity which I so craved but so far this season it's made bugger all difference to the sub-mediocre fare being served up.

Motherwell for example are currently second top of the league and this, according to our manager, makes them a bit of a scalp to be prized. Compare and contrast our comparative fortunes. Motherwell - a club with only about HALF the turnover of Hibs - got themselves a new manager at the end of 2010 in Stuart McCall - he seems to have rejuvinated his team - they certainly made Hibs look second best on Saturday and they are delivering the dividends that matter to any football fan - results!

That is something that Calderwood has signally failed to do at Hibs and there comes a time where you just have to say - enough's enough, you've had your chance and it's time to go. I'd say that time is now - regardless of differing starts to the season, Motherwell are a team we should be expecting to beat at ER - a draw you could just about handle but saturday's defeat was just the latest in a long line of unacceptable results and it all adds up to a failure to deliver from CC.

The only difference I can think of in the situations of McCall and CC is that McCall took over a team doing well and on the up, whereas CC inherited a team going downhill fast.

I agree with your post though. I don't think we're being too harsh either.

[BT58]

I couldnt believe my eyes when i read that motherwell had 65% of the game
Have we fell that far,,, jeez whats worse is that we where at home!!!!!
Sad times
Just glad dunfermline are as bad as us
Bt

[Don Giovanni]

Celtc I give you, but we didn't have a good number of the players we have now, ICT - the notion that we were outplayed in that game is a myth that has grown arms and legs on here, we matched ICT throughout the game save for a 10 minute spell where they carved out a few chances towards the end of the 2nd half, but it was far from daylight robbery. St Mirren deservedly beat us and have done well this season so far. Lennon's made some good signings and they are performing better than anyone really expected them to this season, but we should be beating them at Easter Road every day of the week. No excuse for getting a hiding from them (and they totally outplayed us that game). The Aberdeen was a classic example of two teams being sh** scared to get beat from the other. Neither team wanted to be the one in the biggest crisis and so we got one of the worst 0-0 draws I have seen since a 0-0 under Yogi against St Johnstone the year before. Dunfermline outplayed us from the moment we went 0-2 up, and we were lucky to hold onto a point, but first half we were well worth the lead, still as with St Mirren, we should be going to Dunfermline and winning every time, IMHO. Unacceptable result and performance. The derby was unacceptable full stop. No excuses to be offered other than it was the first game for Towell and Griffiths, both of whom had literally been at the club days. Dundee United game was just a bad example of defending poorly, other than the defence we actually played alright. I don't know why I'm justifying (or maybe putting into context is a better way of expressing it) these games - I was at the majority of them and sat there, almost literally with my head in my hands out of sheer boredom and frustration at how far we have fallen. I'm not a CC fan, and for every performance like those against St Johnstone or Rangers, there are three or four or five performances like yesterday, and I'm even at the point of wondering why I'm bothering sorting out babysitters, or shift slides, or all the other nonsense I have to do to get to a game when it's just not enjoyable at all at the moment. That's fair. I'm not trying to darken your day, believe it or not! I purchase a season ticket in full knowledge that it will not be value for money as I will miss several games due to work, holiday or other commitments. However, I too an getting to the stage of wondering why I bother making the effort of switching shifts, making travel arrangements and ruining a perfectly good Saturday afternoon by going to watch the fare on offer at Easter Road.

[nortonhibby]

Matty, I respect your bending over backwards to be fair to Calderwood but I think we are well, well beyond the point where he deserves any slack. He is a proven liability and I think he should be shown the door as soon as possible. I keep coming out in a cold sweat when I think of the reported £300K we might have got for his sub-standard services back in the summer. I bet Petrie has had a few sleepless hours since then thinking about one of his poorer decisions.

Good point and i suspect this is what is keeping CC In a job untill some other club makes a move for the services of CC And are waving a 300k plus compo fee we are stuck with him RP Will be determined to recoup this loss.

[snooky]

I couldnt believe my eyes when i read that motherwell had 65% of the game
Have we fell that far,,, jeez whats worse is that we where at home!!!!!
Sad times
Just glad dunfermline are as bad as us
Bt

I reckon the second half was about 50/50 so god knows what the first half percentage was alone given the it was 65% to them for the whole game.
Is there a whizkid out there that can do the math and let us know the answer (for the 1st half %).

[IWasThere2016]

I reckon the second half was about 50/50 so god knows what the fist half percentage was alone given the it was 65% to them for the whole game.
Is there a whizkid out there that can do the math and let us know the answer (for the 1st half %).

65% = 0.65 x 90 mins = 58.50 mins eg Well's share of the entire match.

If the second half was even eg 22.50 mins each, Well would need to have 36 mins (58.50 less 22.50) of the first half.

36 mins is 80% of the first 45 mins.

[Alfred E Newman]

No defeats in September, and the two that have come in in October away to the Champions, and at home to the team clear in second.

Are we being too harsh with the reaction from yesterday? I dunno... Just putting it out there.

Right enough Matt, 1 point off the foot of the table in the middle of October isn`t too bad. No matter how you try to gloss over the performances the club is in a mess.

[matty_f]

Right enough Matt, 1 point off the foot of the table in the middle of October isn`t too bad. No matter how you try to gloss over the performances the club is in a mess. Who is glossing over anything? Try reading the thread.

[nortonhibby]

Right enough Matt, 1 point off the foot of the table in the middle of October isn`t too bad. No matter how you try to gloss over the performances the club is in a mess.

4 points of top 6 ?

[Alfred E Newman]

Who is glossing over anything? Try reading the thread.

I have read the thread and you are suggesting that our form during September and October might not be as bad as it seems yet we are anchored at the foot of the league with little sign of improvement. That is not facing facts .

[matty_f]

I have read the thread and you are suggesting that our form during September and October might not be as bad as it seems yet we are anchored at the foot of the league with little sign of improvement. That is not facing facts . I asked the question, i never made the statement. If you have read the thread you would have seen that posted that i do not think we are being too harsh.

[nortonhibby]

I have read the thread and you are suggesting that our form during September and October might not be as bad as it seems yet we are anchored at the foot of the league with little sign of improvement. That is not facing facts .

We are not anchored on the bottom we are 3rd from bottom we are a point clear with a far better goal difference.

[Jones28]

I thought we were much improved in the second half yesterday. Had we been better in the first i think we could have sneaked it.

[Liberal Hibby]

I don't think fans are being too harsh. Calderwood has now had a year and more than a season's worth of games to make an impact and there's precious little evidence (apart from a solitary win in Inverness) that he's got the club going in the right direction.

If he'd made us diffiuclt to beat - even if it meant we were difficult to watch I'd call that progress. But he hasn't.

If he'd instilled an urgency and tactical awareness in the players I'd call that progress. But he hasn't.

If he'd shown some sort of forward plan that promoted youth, even if results didn't go the right way I'd call that progress. But he hasn't.

I argued that Mixu should have been given more time, because he did at least one of these. But it's very difficult to see how his successors have even met these pretty basic criteria.

If it was a normal job - the board would have invoked some sort of competency procedure by now. Sadly it doesn't seem to exist in football, which is why everyone seems to make money - even if they're no good.

[snooky]

65% = 0.65 x 90 mins = 58.50 mins eg Well's share of the entire match.

If the second half was even eg 22.50 mins each, Well would need to have 36 mins (58.50 less 22.50) of the first half.

36 mins is 80% of the first 45 mins.

Thanks TQM - 80% sounds about right for 'Well's share of the 1st half.

Is that not :embarrassing

[Dashing Bob S]

Scottish football has been poor for a while and the recession has given a lot of people the excuse to stop going and watch televised football.

When around 40% of our support has vanished in the last 18 months, no I don't think we are being harsh.

[basehibby]

I thought we were much improved in the second half yesterday. Had we been better in the first i think we could have sneaked it.

Sure you're not missing one of these :fishin: ???

You're right that we improved in the 2nd half which was pretty even - but football is played over 90mins and the fact remains that we could have been 4-0 down at HT but for the woodwork and some Stacky heroics.

[PaulSmith]

4 points of top 6 ?

What an 'achievement' that is for Hibernian Football Club.

[Keith_M]

Jeezo, cut the guy some slack! Matty asked a perfectly reasonable question, were people being a bit unfair in their reaction to the defeat.

I can see where he's coming from because I asked my Dad (who was at the game, while I wasn't) the same thing. I wondered if the team was generally making progress and was it really so disastrous that they were beat by the team in 2nd place in the league. His opinion was that, while not being a disaster on the surface of it, he didn't think the team were showing much signs of improvement in their play. He thought that regardless of the opposition, Hibs were still really poor.

An opinion yes, but we're surely all entitled to opinions.... and the right to ask.

[smurf]

Yes we were better in the second half but Motherwell were still the better side I thought in the second half.

The league table doesn't lie. Yet again in Motherwell we have a side with less resources better and more stronger than us.

No we are not being too harsh.

All things considered not harsh enough.

[blackpoolhibs]

Yes we were better in the second half but Motherwell were still the better side I thought in the second half.

The league table doesn't lie. Yet again in Motherwell we have a side with less resources better and more stronger than us.

No we are not being too harsh.

All things considered not harsh enough.

I think this much improved 2nd half has suddenly grown legs. Yes we were marginally better, but still 2nd best to Motherwell. How many saves did their keeper make compared to ours? How many times did we hit the woodwork? Wotherspoon gave us some legs in the middle of the park, Galbraith should have done much better with his chance, but if you dont make the keeper work you wont score any goals.

We were 2nd best from start to finish.

[smurf]

I think this much improved 2nd half has suddenly grown legs. Yes we were marginally better, but still 2nd best to Motherwell. How many saves did their keeper make compared to ours? How many times did we hit the woodwork? Wotherspoon gave us some legs in the middle of the park, Galbraith should have done much better with his chance, but if you dont make the keeper work you wont score any goals.

We were 2nd best from start to finish.

Exactly.

[Alfred E Newman]

We are not anchored on the bottom we are 3rd from bottom we are a point clear with a far better goal difference.

Our position is obviously not as bad as I thought.. I have just opened a bottle of bubbly to celebrate.

[edinburghhibee]

I don't think the fans reaction has been harsh at all, my reasons for this are as follows...

when CC took over we were crying out for a commanding centre half, he has had two windows to get this sorted however he has brought in O'Hanlon who in my opinion is no better that Dickoh. Which is fairly poor.

He has been aware (hopefully) that we cannot defend our penalty box from crossed balls however watching Hibs this season we refuse to close down the oppositions wingers, on saturday for instance Humphreys and Hately were given so much time to swing in crosses Hanlon just wouldn't close that space down and attempt to block the cross coming in and due to him continuing to do this it looks as though he has been instructed by cc, to tighten into the centre halfs to protect them.

O'Hanlon has been beaten in the air for the motherwell goal and it was embarrasing to watch. He had no idea what-so-ever where the motherwell striker was and Murphy made a fool out of him with how easy the finish was. IMHO Stack should have come for the cross but he hasn't and he more than made up for his mistake in the second half with some great saves.

If we continue to play this way the rest of the season teams will continue to tear us to bits.

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't think the fans reaction has been harsh at all, my reasons for this are as follows...

when CC took over we were crying out for a commanding centre half, he has had two windows to get this sorted however he has brought in O'Hanlon who in my opinion is no better that Dickoh. Which is fairly poor.

He has been aware (hopefully) that we cannot defend our penalty box from crossed balls however watching Hibs this season we refuse to close down the oppositions wingers, on saturday for instance Humphreys and Hately were given so much time to swing in crosses Hanlon just wouldn't close that space down and attempt to block the cross coming in and due to him continuing to do this it looks as though he has been instructed by cc, to tighten into the centre halfs to protect them.

O'Hanlon has been beaten in the air for the motherwell goal and it was embarrasing to watch. He had no idea what-so-ever where the motherwell striker was and Murphy made a fool out of him with how easy the finish was. IMHO Stack should have come for the cross but he hasn't and he more than made up for his mistake in the second half with some great saves.

If we continue to play this way the rest of the season teams will continue to tear us to bits.

When you think how much he wanted O'Hanlon, how he'd tried to sign him many times over his career, its surprising to me just how pish he is.