Is racism a problem compared to sectarianism in Scottish football?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'd say no.

[Dashing Bob S]

I'd say no.

I'd agree, but would add the caveat that only because we largely live in a mono-ethnic city with a monotonic support.

Sectarianism has poisoned Scotland for generations.

[steakbake]

Sectarianism is more widespread, more co-ordinated and unfortunately, more accepted than racism in football. There is no place for either but I sometime wish the hard words, resolve and support that "show racism the red card" gets could be poured into anti-sectarianism. Instead we have a slippery battle of semantics about what is sectarian abuse and what isn't. Fact of the matter is that both cheeks of the plooky arse of Glasgow have lots to gain from perpetuating tribalism and tacitly allowing sectarian behavior in their support.

As for trying to legislate for it, I think the Scottish Gov are on a hiding to nothing but fair play for actually trying to do something.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Very true, might be more worthwhile for the club to spend a fiver to protest against sectarianism then.

[Spudster]

I don't actually believe sectarianism is the problem. If religion didn't exist they would still act exactly the same, religion and sectarianism is just an (poor) excuse for behaving like PS They = OF fans

[Sas_The_Hibby]

I'd agree, but would add the caveat that only because we largely live in a mono-ethnic city with a monotonic support.

Sectarianism has poisoned Scotland for generations.

This was perhaps true 50 years ago, but I don't believe it's true today, and Edinburgh's a much richer city for it IMO.

Racism's still an issue in Scotland (though no more than anywhere else in Europe) but I think it's much less of an issue in Scottish football than it apparently is in some other European countries.

[steakbake]

I don't actually believe sectarianism is the problem. If religion didn't exist they would still act exactly the same, religion and sectarianism is just an (poor) excuse for behaving like PS They = OF fans

Yes, also true.

In an alternate reality, they'd find other reasons. The problem in this picture is that the clubs have no interest in combatting it genuinely. It defines them, gives them meaning and gives them victim or villain status as and when it suits their needs.

[RIP]

I hear sectarian behaviour at 2 matches per season

Sadly I've heard racism at over a dozen Hibs games in the last 12 months

[Franck Stanton]

Unfortunately I think it is a bigger problem than most football supporters realise. I have, for a variety of reasons,[ too many and boring to list,] had the misfortune to attend a number of Dundee games over last few seasons and have found them to be extremly vocal in their racist remarks to quite a few players. Now I am not claiming they are the only supporters that partake in this, as I am sure we have a small number who do likewise, but they have a large proportion of bigoted idiots shouting some truly horrendous comments. Needs to be stamped out. As for me, - yes I am colour predudiced, ----- I hate Maroon.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

With the OF only sectarianism, without neither bar a few *****. Haven't seen racism at a football match for some time now.

[Jack]

I suspect we’re (Scottish football fans) better at keeping the lid on racism but as others have said sectarianism has its place in the hearts OF too many.

I also suspect however, that scratch the surface of our Scottish population and racism would be all too apparent.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

How can folks truly know whether they are racist if they've not been exposed to a multicultural environment or another culture? Ignorance

Are these statements racist...
I hate the English
I've got good English mates but can't stand them as a nation

[lucky]

The Edinburgh song is racist yet it is song by some usually on enroute to the PBS. There is a problem but it is now regarded as unacceptable to make jokes or spout vile over someones ethnic origin. We are driving it out of football but with organisations such as SDL hanging on to some clubs we must continue to show our disgust at those who behave in this manner.

[Makaveli]

Dunno about anyone else but from my experience you hear more racism in the pub/street/media than at the football, and with sectarianism it's the other way round.

[Andy74]

Dunno about anyone else but from my experience you hear more racism in the pub/street/media than at the football, and with sectarianism it's the other way round.

Correct. You get the odd idiot but its not played out by large scale chanting or behaiour that is inherently racist these days. Not here anyway.

Down the list of current issues for football clubs to tackle. The lack of volunteers jumping to help on a previous thread suggests its just not a key issue for people.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I am not really sure if I see any difference between racism and sectarianism TBH.

[Beefster]

I hear sectarian behaviour at 2 matches per season

Sadly I've heard racism at over a dozen Hibs games in the last 12 months

In a nutshell.

[Beefster]

How can folks truly know whether they are racist if they've not been exposed to a multicultural environment or another culture? Ignorance

Are these statements racist...
I hate the English
I've got good English mates but can't stand them as a nation

No, they are xenophobic IMHO.

[franks]

I am not really sure if I see any difference between racism and sectarianism TBH.

Tend to agree with the above. No room for either at the football or society in general.

[Hibbyradge]

How can folks truly know whether they are racist if they've not been exposed to a multicultural environment or another culture? Ignorance

Are these statements racist...
I hate the English
I've got good English mates but can't stand them as a nation

They're xenophobic statements rather than racist, but that's just semantics.

They're still poisonous.

[Jack]

How can folks truly know whether they are racist if they've not been exposed to a multicultural environment or another culture? Ignorance

Are these statements racist...
I hate the English
I've got good English mates but can't stand them as a nation

I'm English and can relate to that, that's how I feel sometimes, where does that leave me :confused: :greengrin

[Geo_1875]

I'm English and can relate to that, that's how I feel sometimes, where does that leave me :confused: :greengrin

Self-abuser?

[basehibby]

I'd say no.

It would be burying our heads in the sand just to blythly say we don't have any problem with racism, but it is dwarfed by our problems with sectarianism.

People in Scotland have largely cottoned on pretty willingly to the concepts of political correctness and anti-racism (notwithstanding OTT interpretations) and, on the whole we are a nation that fully relates to the idea of racial equality ("a man's a man for a' that....").

With sectarianism the attitudes are more ingrained, being intwined as they are with feeble minded "traditions" as perpetuated by Rangers and Celtic football clubs in particular. These nonsensical attitudes have been clung onto by various inadequate morons who cling onto the backward notions of sectarianism as some kind of badge of honour - associating them as they do, with the greater communities of ******ed f***wits that congregate at Parkhead and Ibrox every other weekend.

[heretoday]

Interesting question. In the 60s/70s it was quite acceptable to stand and sing "I'd rather be a darkie than a hun". The Celtic player Paul Wilson was a terracing target with an example being "Paul Wilson - he's jungle-fresh" sung to the tune of a TV soft drinks advert of the time.

It's hard to believe those sentiments have entirely disappeared but it's true to say that anyone carrying on like that at a match now would quickly be pointed out by fellow fans. So that's good.

Sectarianism, however, is doing great business.

[khib70]

Clearly both things are a problem, but there is a vital distinction.

Racism, as several posters correctly point out, can be encountered at any game at any ground in Scotland or elsewhere. At the StJ game, the guy sitting next to me in the Lower West ventured the remark that "none of the darkies are playing well today", which is clearly a racist remark. You overhear this rubbish every game of the season, and clearly the perpetrators don't see anything wrong in it. It needs to be challenged, and indeed I did challenge the above comment. More than that, it needs to be eliminated.

However, sectarianism will always be a more significant factor, for the simple reason that it puts bums (literally) on seats at the two largest clubs in the country, and contributes directly to their position of dominance. That's why the two clubs with by far the biggest problem will continue to pay lip service to combatting sectarianism, then go away and do nothing about it/whine and whinge when the government proposes to do something about it.

[lEXO]

I'd say no.

I,d tend to agree H. I have encountered it at Hibs games, one in particular when a Hibs fan in the wrong seat racially abused a steward at the PBS.
I challenged him on it and he shut up and i think supporters are more likely to challenge racism more thn sectarian abuse.

[Moody Mulder]

here's my ten bobs worth and it might not sit all that well in this topic but i am far more concerned about physical violence than name callling !!!!!

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

here's my ten bobs worth and it might not sit all that well in this topic but i am far more concerned about physical violence than name callling !!!!! I'd tend to agree with that, I cant recall anything thats particularly offended me in all my time of going to the football apart from the time a policeman at Ibrox threatened me with a breach of the peace charge for shaking my head at him!

[IndieHibby]

I'd tend to agree with that, I cant recall anything thats particularly offended me in all my time of going to the football apart from the time a policeman at Ibrox threatened me with a breach of the peace charge for shaking my head at him!

What did he actually want you to do?

[Hibs Class]

I hear sectarian behaviour at 2 matches per season

Sadly I've heard racism at over a dozen Hibs games in the last 12 months

I'd probably agree with those stats, but add that the racist comments tend to be shouts by single supporters whilst the sectarian stuff will involve a large number of those in the south stand.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

What did he actually want you to do? He told me not very politely to sit down after Hibs had had a McGinlay goal disallowed for offside in the first few minutes.

[Dirkster23]

I hear sectarian behaviour at 2 matches per season

Sadly I've heard racism at over a dozen Hibs games in the last 12 months

The sectarian behaviour comes from three thousand in the away end at each of these games. How many people do you hear being racist at games?

Both are problems, but one is a far larger problem than the other IMO.

[silverhibee]

I'd tend to agree with that, I cant recall anything thats particularly offended me in all my time of going to the football apart from the time a policeman at Ibrox threatened me with a breach of the peace charge for shaking my head at him!

I got hit over the head with a bottle many years ago at darkheid, i got done for a breach of the peace. :rolleyes:

[Brizo]

In Scottish fitba overall secarianism is the bigger problem due obviously to the OF and the comsiderable Hertz diet hun element.

At Hibs we have a far bigger problem with racism than sectarianism. Ive heard the Embra song plenty times in pubs and in the streets before games but cant remember the last time I heard a rebel song. Similarly in the ground hear a lot more racist shouts and comments than orange b type ones.

Over the last decade or so ive noticed an increasing amount of racist language among our support. Id like to think it could be self policed out of Hibs the way the rebel songs were

[Dashing Bob S]

This was perhaps true 50 years ago, but I don't believe it's true today, and Edinburgh's a much richer city for it IMO.

Racism's still an issue in Scotland (though no more than anywhere else in Europe) but I think it's much less of an issue in Scottish football than it apparently is in some other European countries.

Obviously the city has changed a lot in 50 years, but in comparative terms with other UK population centers, Edinburgh remains a remarkably white city. I agree that different groups bring different things to a city and I think Edinburgh could benefit with being more multicultural than it currently is.

[PatHead]

I honestly don't believe racism is a problem at Easter Road anymore. If you look hard enough I am sure you will find some comments here or there but overall it has been pretty much eradicated except against English or Eastern Europeans. I cringe at the Rudi Skatchel chant whenever I hear it.

There is far more homophobia in football grounds now than racism particularly from our pink friends across the city with their "All Hibees are gay chant" which must encourage their youngster's homophobic instincts.

If the same effort had gone into eradicating this and bigotry over the last 10 year I am sure that would be gone from football grounds as well by now. However L & Bs finest have chosen to stand by and let certain clubs supporters spew filth and bile for years. They and their jobsworth stewards will however speak to someone who calls the linesman a naughty name though....or have the cheek to stand up whilst the game is in progress.

If however we go with Show Racism the red card, followed by show bigotry the red card, show homophobia the red card, show wife beating the red card etc the message will be diluted. None of these causes are any less important than others however it can only through strong self policing that these will be eradicated from the Hibs end of the stadium and we could be proud of our support.

The solution lies with the supporters not wee bits of red paper.

[Dashing Bob S]

I'd probably agree with those stats, but add that the racist comments tend to be shouts by single supporters whilst the sectarian stuff will involve a large number of those in the south stand.

Very good point. I once read a something way back in the eighties, where they said that hard-core members of racist organizations like the National Front tended not to make racist comments at football matches, that these tended to be done by isolated attention-seeking simpletons looking for a reaction.

[surreyhibbie]

Interesting question. In the 60s/70s it was quite acceptable to stand and sing "I'd rather be a darkie than a hun". The Celtic player Paul Wilson was a terracing target with an example being "Paul Wilson - he's jungle-fresh" sung to the tune of a TV soft drinks advert of the time.

It's hard to believe those sentiments have entirely disappeared but it's true to say that anyone carrying on like that at a match now would quickly be pointed out by fellow fans. So that's good.

Sectarianism, however, is doing great business.

Peanuts. :nerd:

I have to agree though, the racism thing does exist but it's nowhere near the same scale as Sectarianism, in the football grounds.

Outside football, I'd say it was the other way around to be honest.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Quite interesting that theres been no contribution from our resident OF fans so far.

[vercol36]

I don't reckon there's a racist problem or a sectarian problem. A few tabloids newspapers mention these 'problems' and everyone seems to believe them. I sometimes go to games with a black friend and he has never expressed any knowledge of racist chanting. And as for sectarianism... if you are getting wound up by Red Hands, Butcher's Aprons and songs about fenian blood, maybe you shouldn't be going to football games. It's all part of the banter. I bet most of the tw*ts who sing these things never express any anti-catholic resentment outside a football stadium.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Decent piece in the Scotsman today reporting on Celtc's AGM. There is a real cornflakes-spitter of a comment that records that some fans criticised Lawwell for bringing up sectarianism at an AGM. Apparently they " argue that he should focus on football". For me, that is this whole issue in a nutshell. Don't bring anything else to the game. Hope that this enlghtened Celtc fan can spread the message, but I would guess that he maybe can't see the irony in what he has said.

[Jack]

I don't reckon there's a racist problem or a sectarian problem. A few tabloids newspapers mention these 'problems' and everyone seems to believe them. I sometimes go to games with a black friend and he has never expressed any knowledge of racist chanting. And as for sectarianism... if you are getting wound up by Red Hands, Butcher's Aprons and songs about fenian blood, maybe you shouldn't be going to football games. It's all part of the banter. I bet most of the tw*ts who sing these things never express any anti-catholic resentment outside a football stadium.

Those who ignore the problem, and there's evidence even on this thread there is, are part of the problem.

[vercol36]

Those who ignore the problem, and there's evidence even on this thread there is, are part of the problem.


That doesn't mean anything. It's just more baseless rhetoric.

If there was a sectarian or racist problem, I would be entirely up for remedial action. But there isn't a problem, so I'm not bothered.

[Jack]

That doesn't mean anything. It's just more baseless rhetoric.

If there was a sectarian or racist problem, I would be entirely up for remedial action. But there isn't a problem, so I'm not bothered.

I’ll leave others to decide who is right on this.

[Keith_M]

Obviously the city has changed a lot in 50 years, but in comparative terms with other UK population centers, Edinburgh remains a remarkably white city. I agree that different groups bring different things to a city and I think Edinburgh could benefit with being more multicultural than it currently is.

The most recent influx into Edinburgh is obviously form Eastern Europe. Sadly, I've heard plenty of comments from scottish people about 'bl**dy poles' (not so much at football though). Let's not forget that there was also recently a race motivated murder very near to ER.

If Scotland was to have a sudden influx of a large number of non-white immigrants, I dread to think what the reaction would be.


Racism is very prevalent here in Munich. I personally can be heard regularly muttering about bl**dy germans.

[mickki40]

I am English, and have only ever heard Racist comments specifically against the English at Hibs. Even at Celtic they aren't specifically aimed at the English. I have confronted folks before at Hibs.