Edinburgh Lib Dem Councillor's Statement on Trams

[One Day Soon]

"Edinburgh City Council's transport convener has said he did not have the right skills to "properly scrutinise" the city's troubled tram project." BBC Scotland.

This makes me angry beyond reason. If you are in a position of responsibility of this sort and you feel you don't have the skills to make judgments on £100s of millions of pounds worth of tax payers money and public investments you take one of two courses of action. You either step down to let someone else more qualified take on that particular task or you use your executive authority to bring in the skills set needed to provide proper scrutiny.

You don't sit there happily letting the whole thing rack up vast bills on the public purse and then offer the leisurely observation afterwards that you didn't really know what you were doing.

Really makes you wonder what they are doing right now in Cameron's Cabinet and leading the Council.

[Hibs Class]

I agree that it is quite outrageous. As far as Edinburgh is concerned, the buck stops with jenny dawe. This is just the latest in a huge line of examples of her total lack of leadership and judgment. Mckenzie should never have been put in that position in the first place.

That said, this declaration of incompetence suggests he knows what the inquiry may disclose and that he feels a confession of stupidity now may be his best defence.

[magpie1892]

"Edinburgh City Council's transport convener has said he did not have the right skills to "properly scrutinise" the city's troubled tram project." BBC Scotland.

This makes me angry beyond reason.

Astonishing, isn't it, that the guy has the brass neck to sit there and describe his coming from a social work background and basically admitting he was clueless but... he's still there, as are the majority of the rest of the parasites. It's utterly shameless to take decisions - and the cash - when you've not got a scooby what you're doing.

[magpie1892]

Mckenzie... feels a confession of stupidity now may be his best defence.

Didn't work for Jim Devine, though his declaration of stupidity (admitting the offence you've been charged with, live on TV) was somewhat unwitting.

[Jonnyboy]

What you need to bear in mind is that these folk are local politicians and many of them have no training in how to run a council budget. Effectively you've got butcher's and baker's and candlestick makers and they don't have a scoobie

[matty_f]

"Edinburgh City Council's transport convener has said he did not have the right skills to "properly scrutinise" the city's troubled tram project." BBC Scotland.

This makes me angry beyond reason. If you are in a position of responsibility of this sort and you feel you don't have the skills to make judgments on £100s of millions of pounds worth of tax payers money and public investments you take one of two courses of action. You either step down to let someone else more qualified take on that particular task or you use your executive authority to bring in the skills set needed to provide proper scrutiny.

You don't sit there happily letting the whole thing rack up vast bills on the public purse and then offer the leisurely observation afterwards that you didn't really know what you were doing.

Really makes you wonder what they are doing right now in Cameron's Cabinet and leading the Council.

Spot on. Folk have lost their jobs, their businesses, their lifestyles because of the trams project. It's an absolute disgrace, I'd honestly have the buggers that decided it was a good idea up on criminal charges for the amount of money that they've cost the public. To come out and say he was out of his depth is unreal. Aside from stating the obvious, it shows a complete contempt for the people he's supposed to serve. Disgusting.

[Mibbes Aye]

What you need to bear in mind is that these folk are local politicians and many of them have no training in how to run a council budget. Effectively you've got butcher's and baker's and candlestick makers and they don't have a scoobie

:agree:

It goes beyond that though. Not to stick up for councillors, but the truth is that it's council officers, local government officers, who create policy and then execute it. To an extent councillors are figureheads - their political affiliation and the influence that has on their respective council's policies are diluted by the national picture and the reality on the ground.

If the implementation of the tram project has been a shambles, then much of the blame has to sit with the staff who were supposed to manage it, whether within City of Edinburgh Council or arms length through TIE. That's the unreported story for me.

It makes a simpler headline to paint it in political party terms, but this project's difficulties reflect failings within how CEC manage complex projects to my mind.

For once it's not the politicians fault :greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

:agree:

It goes beyond that though. Not to stick up for councillors, but the truth is that it's council officers, local government officers, who create policy and then execute it. To an extent councillors are figureheads - their political affiliation and the influence that has on their respective council's policies are diluted by the national picture and the reality on the ground.

If the implementation of the tram project has been a shambles, then much of the blame has to sit with the staff who were supposed to manage it, whether within City of Edinburgh Council or arms length through TIE. That's the unreported story for me.

It makes a simpler headline to paint it in political party terms, but this project's difficulties reflect failings within how CEC manage complex projects to my mind.

For once it's not the politicians fault :greengrin

I kinda agree J but remember it's the politicians that authorise the spend in the first place :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

I kinda agree J but remember it's the politicians that authorise the spend in the first place :wink:

Like they know :rolleyes: :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

I kinda agree J but remember it's the politicians that authorise the spend in the first place :wink:

My last post was a bit fatuous John, you are right and if anything it's probably underappreciated how much influence local politicians can have. At the same time, much of public service delivery occurs regardless - I think we are in a funny position where we give councillors enormous power in some respects, none in others, yet hold them to task for all sorts.

[Jonnyboy]

My last post was a bit fatuous John, you are right and if anything it's probably underappreciated how much influence local politicians can have. At the same time, much of public service delivery occurs regardless - I think we are in a funny position where we give councillors enormous power in some respects, none in others, yet hold them to task for all sorts.

:agree:

It's a tough job and somebody has to do it!

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm all for politicians showing a bit of humility and admitting they aren't infallible but this 'we're ***** and and we know we're *****' patter, begs the question: why run for office if you don't have the skill set?

[Kato]

I'm all for politicians showing a bit of humility and admitting they aren't infallible but this 'we're ***** and and we know we're *****' patter, begs the question: why run for office if you don't have the skill set?

Ego.

Sometimes petty ego, sometimes a hugely inflated one but for most politicians the reason they run for office is ego.

The calibre of politician on Edinburgh City Council is poor. If we ever get the hole story of the Trams it will bring this into sharp focus. ECC should never have been allowed anywhere near that project. The fact that they were has brought petty party allegiences, knowing yet undeclared incompetence and downright stupidity to the fore and has cost us all huge amounts of money - all for a cosmetic whimsy that no-one wanted other than those who knew they'd could skim some paukle from it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Astonishing, isn't it, that the guy has the brass neck to sit there and describe his coming from a social work background and basically admitting he was clueless but... he's still there, as are the majority of the rest of the parasites. It's utterly shameless to take decisions - and the cash - when you've not got a scooby what you're doing.

I don't get it, it's so unlike Social Work to get involved in things they know nothing about. They tend to stick to know what they know best, and keep well out of issues like education, health, and er, transport. This man deserves every sympathy and should be allowed to go back to being inefficient in an area he is qualified to be in.

[J-C]

Forgot about this program but will watch on catch up tv later, someone told me yesterday that Jenny Dawe said that no referendum on the trams was needed as the electorate had voted for the Lib Dems, therefore giving them the green light to go ahead. Am I missing something here but in 2007 Edinburgh council elections did Lib Dem have an overall majority or are they in a coalition council, so where is this green light by the electorate, the same electorate that when asked by a local paper that they didn't want the trams. I'm still of the opinion that some dodgy dealings have gone on behind the scenes for this to be passed in the first place and wouldn't be surprised if the police got involved somewhere along the line.

[J-C]

Forgot about this program but will watch on catch up tv later, someone told me yesterday that Jenny Dawe said that no referendum on the trams was needed as the electorate had voted for the Lib Dems, therefore giving them the green light to go ahead. Am I missing something here but in 2007 Edinburgh council elections did Lib Dem have an overall majority or are they in a coalition council, so where is this green light by the electorate, the same electorate that when asked by a local paper that they didn't want the trams. I'm still of the opinion that some dodgy dealings have gone on behind the scenes for this to be passed in the first place and wouldn't be surprised if the police got involved somewhere along the line.

[Beefster]

A social worker missing abuse and neglect going on right under his nose. Who'da thunk it?

[Jack]

:agree:

It goes beyond that though. Not to stick up for councillors, but the truth is that it's council officers, local government officers, who create policy and then execute it. To an extent councillors are figureheads - their political affiliation and the influence that has on their respective council's policies are diluted by the national picture and the reality on the ground.

If the implementation of the tram project has been a shambles, then much of the blame has to sit with the staff who were supposed to manage it, whether within City of Edinburgh Council or arms length through TIE. That's the unreported story for me.

It makes a simpler headline to paint it in political party terms, but this project's difficulties reflect failings within how CEC manage complex projects to my mind.

For once it's not the politicians fault :greengrin

It’s the councillors that make the policies through their manifestos so it’s a bit rich to blame the officials whose job it is to execute those policies.

It is the councillors who are supposed to maintain an oversight of the council they preside over and hold the officials to account.

If the councillors don’t have the expertise then its up to them to ensure the right people are in the right place at the right time.

It was the councillors who had the ‘final’ say, vote, at each stage of this farce.

TIE could not have been set up and work the way it did or employ the people it did without the say so of the councillors.

It is the councillors who are accountable.

It is the councillors fault, individually and collectively. :greengrin :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

It’s the councillors that make the policies through their manifestos so it’s a bit rich to blame the officials whose job it is to execute those policies.

It is the councillors who are supposed to maintain an oversight of the council they preside over and hold the officials to account.

If the councillors don’t have the expertise then its up to them to ensure the right people are in the right place at the right time.

It was the councillors who had the ‘final’ say, vote, at each stage of this farce.

TIE could not have been set up and work the way it did or employ the people it did without the say so of the councillors.

It is the councillors who are accountable.

It is the councillors fault, individually and collectively. :greengrin :greengrin

I don't think it's rich at all to 'blame' officials.

The idea for trams didn't come from a manifesto, it came from transport studies and evidence-based research, used to inform a business case. That would have been drawn up by officials, not by councillors. As it happens I think the business case was justified.

You're right, councillors do have a scrutiny role but what they definitely are not is executive management or project management and that is where the failings in tram implementation appear to have taken place.

That is not to absolve councillors - leadership hasn't exactly been prominent on their part - but by the same token, the senior and corporate management in the Council were responsible for running this and they would also have responsibility for what was reported to councillors.

[Dashing Bob S]

I don't think it's rich at all to 'blame' officials.

The idea for trams didn't come from a manifesto, it came from transport studies and evidence-based research, used to inform a business case. That would have been drawn up by officials, not by councillors. As it happens I think the business case was justified.

You're right, councillors do have a scrutiny role but what they definitely are not is executive management or project management and that is where the failings in tram implementation appear to have taken place.

That is not to absolve councillors - leadership hasn't exactly been prominent on their part - but by the same token, the senior and corporate management in the Council were responsible for running this and they would also have responsibility for what was reported to councillors.

I think the writing was on the wall when they trumpeted this 'up and running by 2012' nonsense. You make yourself a hostage to fortune with kind of fanfare, which was plastered all over the city. The history of capital projects in the UK, the millennium dome, Scottish parliament, Wembley Stadium (yes there are exceptions, like the Millennium stadium in Wales) suggests that things always take longer and cost more than estimated.

You make the very valid point: just because the councillors/corporate management people royally f-ucked it up, doesn't mean that the trams weren't a good idea. A lot of the opposition to trams in principle seems to be from that slavering semi-jakey, pseudo-Jambo mindset that says the war was brilliant and if only we could have rationing, Nazi bombs raining down on us and asbestos in our public buildings, then everything would be just grand again.

[steakbake]

What I find amusing is that every time there is a major construction project overseas - olympics in Athens, world cup in SAfrica etc etc etc - our media love to have a go and say things like "there's no way they could handle that..."

We're trying to build a tram track which runs no longer than 10 miles. Several years on, we've got bits and pieces of track and a massive bill.

[lapsedhibee]

A lot of the opposition to trams in principle seems to be from that slavering semi-jakey, pseudo-Jambo mindset that says the war was brilliant and if only we could have rationing, Nazi bombs raining down on us and asbestos in our public buildings, then everything would be just grand again.

Not sure if that's quite right. We had trams when Nazi bombs were raining down on us. Open-topped ones, too, to show Jerry Bosch we weren't afraid. :confused: