Reality bites for the SNP

[RyeSloan]

Looks like being soley responsible for the nation is already taking it's toll on the SNP. At this rate it won't be too long until the electorate wake up to how the SNP like to say one thing but actually do another:

Capital Expenditure not what they say and budget figures don't include what they say are going to do (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/SNP-budget-for-big-cash.6845176.jp)

Sneaky cuts on child dentistry (http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2452584) - This to me is a bit of a disgrace and for the SNP spokesman to come out last night and defend the move by saying it was part of the SNP moving forward in improving that nations dental care seems to beggar belief.

[Geo_1875]

If you've ever analysed Government "spending" proposals you'll find that they never add up. Makes no difference which party is in power.

[Jack]

From what I understand the children's dental care is around ‘cosmetic’ treatments which should never have been on the NHS anyway – the NHS is based around ‘clinical need’. Seen from that point of view the kids that have previously benefited from this have been lucky enough to screw the system officially.

It was mentioned on the Bounce about some ladies being able to have breast enhancement operations on the NHS and I suspect if the same line was spun by kids with squinty teeth they'd be straightened up.

[Betty Boop]

Great, so we will be going back in time to the days when kids were ridiculed for having buck and gappy teeth. Unless of course you can afford 2 grand for an orthodontist.

[RyeSloan]

Great, so we will be going back in time to the days when kids were ridiculed for having buck and gappy teeth. Unless of course you can afford 2 grand for an orthodontist.

Exactly...and it's quite clear to me that this WILL impact peoples mental health and ability to progress in life so to call this type of dental care purely cosmetic is wrong. The desntist have been specifically instructed not to take mental issues into account when considering treatment..i.e if they will suffer mental anguish by getting bullied for having bucky gappy teeth then that is no grounds for NHS treatment.

Also it's not just WHAT is being done but HOW it is being done....sneaked out in a letter to dentists with absolutely no public statement or announcement at all. For a change that will impact thousands of children and households as well as potentially costing these families thousands of pounds (the poorest of course will just have to suffer the ridicule) that is nothing short of deliberate deception and about as a regressive decision as could be possible.

[Jack]

Exactly...and it's quite clear to me that this WILL impact peoples mental health and ability to progress in life so to call this type of dental care purely cosmetic is wrong. The desntist have been specifically instructed not to take mental issues into account when considering treatment..i.e if they will suffer mental anguish by getting bullied for having bucky gappy teeth then that is no grounds for NHS treatment.

Also it's not just WHAT is being done but HOW it is being done....sneaked out in a letter to dentists with absolutely no public statement or announcement at all. For a change that will impact thousands of children and households as well as potentially costing these families thousands of pounds (the poorest of course will just have to suffer the ridicule) that is nothing short of deliberate deception and about as a regressive decision as could be possible.

I take it you don’t understand you don’t understand what a ‘clinical decision’ is.

Or you have it on record somewhere fully and properly qualified medical clinicians have been ordered by the Scottish Government go against their own clinical judgement?

[RyeSloan]

I take it you don’t understand you don’t understand what a ‘clinical decision’ is.

Or you have it on record somewhere fully and properly qualified medical clinicians have been ordered by the Scottish Government go against their own clinical judgement?

Dentist on the BBC last night stated that the mental impact of having wonky teeth had been explicitly excluded from the assesment criteria, so I took him on his word.

Of course I don't have that on record as our government has decided to implement this rather fundemental change in dental provision without bothering to tell the people it actually impacts.

[One Day Soon]

Quality. Restrict dental treatment for kids while making prescriptions free for all, including millionaires.

Whose side are the SNP on again? It's amazing really that they feel they can justify withdrawing this treatment for kids while announcing at same time that they're ordering teachers to teach Scottishness, spending over £100,000 on a top civil servant to push independence and letting nursing fall apart.

I'd call them Tartan Tories but I don't think they are even that consistent. Shameless opportunists dressed up as a government while there's no serious opposition to expose them. Still, this is how most governments begin the gradual process of losing touch and falling apart.

[DaveF]

Shameless opportunists dressed up as a government while there's no serious opposition to expose them. Still, this is how most governments begin the gradual process of losing touch and falling apart.

So a bit like Thatcher in the 80's and Blair thereafter? And assuming Labour get back in at Holyrood at some point, your statement will also apply then?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Looks like being soley responsible for the nation is already taking it's toll on the SNP. At this rate it won't be too long until the electorate wake up to how the SNP like to say one thing but actually do another:


you would think they were labour politicians eh:agree:


[QUOTE=One Day Soon;2934216]

I'd call them Tartan Tories but I don't think they are even that consistent. Shameless opportunists dressed up as a government while there's no serious opposition to expose them. Still, this is how most governments begin the gradual process of losing touch and falling apart.


you would think they were labour politicians eh:agree:

[joe breezy]

Any government in western Europe is having to make cuts though.

If I lived in Scotland I'd probably vote SNP, as it stands I'd never vote LibDem again so I'll probably not vote next time.

Politicians and their parties are all pretty clueless on the whole

[lucky]

Wee Eck is slowly getting found out. His back benchers will turn on him. He can't control constituency MSP's the way he controlled list MSPs. The removal of funding from kids dentistry is a farce. He is happy to waste money on events like home coming.

[One Day Soon]

So a bit like Thatcher in the 80's and Blair thereafter? And assuming Labour get back in at Holyrood at some point, your statement will also apply then?

Interesting that you want to talk about the governments before the SNP and a theoretical government that might come after the SNP, but not the government we currently have - ie the SNP. Mind you with their record I'm not surprised.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=SiMar;2933937]Looks like being soley responsible for the nation is already taking it's toll on the SNP. At this rate it won't be too long until the electorate wake up to how the SNP like to say one thing but actually do another:


you would think they were labour politicians eh:agree:





you would think they were labour politicians eh:agree:

No, you would think they were SNP politicians because that's what they are. And now that they are in control all on their own there's no hiding place for their 'policies' and no defence to be had from spin. Oh dear.

Still, restricting Scottish kids' dental treatment while protecting the wealthiest in society certainly makes their priorities clear. Is this what standing up for Scotland means?

[DaveF]

Interesting that you want to talk about the governments before the SNP and a theoretical government that might come after the SNP, but not the government we currently have - ie the SNP. Mind you with their record I'm not surprised.

You seem to confuse me with someone who cannot see any wrong with the SNP and I can assure you that is not the case.

Sure I wanted the nats to win and I'm glad they did. Gives them a chance to show what they can / can't do but the reality as far as I'm concerned is that every party is as bad as the next one, and I would struggle to name any Govt that actually stuck to its policies - this one included.

[RyeSloan]

[QUOTE=SiMar;2933937]Looks like being soley responsible for the nation is already taking it's toll on the SNP. At this rate it won't be too long until the electorate wake up to how the SNP like to say one thing but actually do another:


you would think they were labour politicians eh:agree:





you would think they were labour politicians eh:agree:

Why would I think they are Labour politicians?

I hold no particular political allegance so the point I was making was specifically about a cut to childrens dentistry that would impact the porest the most and one that has been sneaked out.

Why then do you respond that this would make me think they are Labour politicians, Labour are not in power nor did they have any plans (as far as I am aware) to make this type of cut in NHS provision. Would it not make me think this is actually SNP politicians at work and indicate just how they are preparing to go about their business?

[da-robster]

I know its very fashionable to sit here and blame all politicians for not carrying out their normally unrealistic manifestos but the truth is the vast majority of the general public is to blame. People want top quality hospitals and schools, good pensions, world class infrastructure reliable and cheap electricty etc but want super low taxes. If a politician suggests cutting services or raising taxes their poll numbers collapses. Its no shock that the SNP are doing what they are and it wouldn't have been if labour won and backtracked, to suggest otherwise is political hackery. The truth is we get the politicians we deserve and until the public is willing to mature enough to raise taxes or cut spending we will be treated like idiots by politicians who have to say the right things to get elected but can't actually do them without bankrupting us all.

[bighairyfaeleith]

[QUOTE=cabbageandribs1875;2935877]

Why would I think they are Labour politicians?

I hold no particular political allegance so the point I was making was specifically about a cut to childrens dentistry that would impact the porest the most and one that has been sneaked out.

Why then do you respond that this would make me think they are Labour politicians, Labour are not in power nor did they have any plans (as far as I am aware) to make this type of cut in NHS provision. Would it not make me think this is actually SNP politicians at work and indicate just how they are preparing to go about their business?

aye ma hairy arse you dinnae :faf:

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=cabbageandribs1875;2935877]

Why would I think they are Labour politicians?

I hold no particular political allegance so the point I was making was specifically about a cut to childrens dentistry that would impact the porest the most and one that has been sneaked out.

Why then do you respond that this would make me think they are Labour politicians, Labour are not in power nor did they have any plans (as far as I am aware) to make this type of cut in NHS provision. Would it not make me think this is actually SNP politicians at work and indicate just how they are preparing to go about their business?

The usual apologists will get upset with you for breaking the Brigadoon spell....

[RyeSloan]

aye ma hairy arse you dinnae :faf:

Seriously I don't....I might hold distinct views on certain political parties or their policies but when I say political allegiance (even managed to spell it correctly this time!) I mean like how I have an allegiance to Hibs as a football team. No political party holds me in that way and more than happy to look at each of their policies without feeling the need to support the proposer of that policy in a wider sense.

[Beefster]

Great, so we will be going back in time to the days when kids were ridiculed for having buck and gappy teeth. Unless of course you can afford 2 grand for an orthodontist.

It's not often I agree with you but I do on this. Pissing money up the wall willy-nilly on an unnecessary tram system and new bridge but we'll let kids' teeth get into a state. Joke.

[Jack]

It's not often I agree with you but I do on this. Pissing money up the wall willy-nilly on an unnecessary tram system and new bridge but we'll let kids' teeth get into a state. Joke.


Great, so we will be going back in time to the days when kids were ridiculed for having buck and gappy teeth. Unless of course you can afford 2 grand for an orthodontist.

Reality check-up here :greengrin

Its minor adjustments that are purely cosmetic that will no longer qualify for treatment on the NHS.

So its just a tad removed from parents having to shell out thousands of pounds. If the required treatment was thousands of pounds worth then it would still be covered by the NHS.

Even the dental profession agreed to the change!

[Hibs Class]

Reality check-up here :greengrin

Its minor adjustments that are purely cosmetic that will no longer qualify for treatment on the NHS.

So its just a tad removed from parents having to shell out thousands of pounds. If the required treatment was thousands of pounds worth then it would still be covered by the NHS.

Even the dental profession agreed to the change!

Out of interest was it the NHS dentists or the private dentists that agreed to the change? Trying to find an NHS dentist for kids is a real challenge but on something like this I'd imagine private and NHS dentists may possibly have different views.

[Jack]

Out of interest was it the NHS dentists or the private dentists that agreed to the change? Trying to find an NHS dentist for kids is a real challenge but on something like this I'd imagine private and NHS dentists may possibly have different views.

I understand it was discussions with the British Dental Association, probably the Scottish branch.

Try here for a dentist

http://www.nhs24.com/FindLocal?postcode=EH7+5QG&service=Dentists&page=s11&imageField.x=44&imageField.y=17

[RyeSloan]

Reality check-up here :greengrin

Its minor adjustments that are purely cosmetic that will no longer qualify for treatment on the NHS.

So its just a tad removed from parents having to shell out thousands of pounds. If the required treatment was thousands of pounds worth then it would still be covered by the NHS.

Even the dental profession agreed to the change!

Interesting..do you have a link that confirms what "minor adjustments" actually means or that that won't cost significant sums to have done?

All I can find from the BDA is this:

"While orthodontic care is extremely important, and certainly must be funded for those with a genuine clinical need, paying for it for those who are not judged to need it according to formal criteria is a questionable use of finite financial resources. What is important is that the change that is being implemented is properly explained to patients by Government, so that both they and the dental profession have a proper understanding of what parents can and can’t expect the state to provide for their children.”

So they are essentially saying is lets get the change properly explained so everyone has a proper understanding. Good point, tis a shame that there still seems so little information to get that understanding.

Would be good to know:

Just how many NHS procedures this change will remove..i.e how many kids will no longer qualify for orthodontic treatment

What will be the cost saving

Is that cost saving essential to the continued roll out of Childsmile (or whatever it's called)

What would have been the impact of retaining this provision


BUT I suspect we will get very little of the above...why? Because no matter which way you cut it it's a removal of current provision and the policy seems to keep those nice and quiet...silent in fact if you look at the health news pages of the Scottish Government. To be fair though they did find the time to keep us updated on the fact that Salmond had porridge with his cabinet yesterday. Phew.

[greenlex]

We could tax confectioners, soft drinkmanufacturers and vendors of these products to maintain the current dental provision. A bit like we tax tobacvo products to part fund the NHS.
Wecoukd also tax parents of kids with rotten teeth to stop the kids getting in that stae in tbe first place.
We could just ask the parents to pay for the treatment if their kids need treatment

[Jack]

Interesting..do you have a link that confirms what "minor adjustments" actually means or that that won't cost significant sums to have done?All I can find from the BDA is this:"While orthodontic care is extremely important, and certainly must be funded for those with a genuine clinical need, paying for it for those who are not judged to need it according to formal criteria is a questionable use of finite financial resources. What is important is that the change that is being implemented is properly explained to patients by Government, so that both they and the dental profession have a proper understanding of what parents can and can’t expect the state to provide for their children.” So they are essentially saying is lets get the change properly explained so everyone has a proper understanding. Good point, tis a shame that there still seems so little information to get that understanding.Would be good to know:Just how many NHS procedures this change will remove..i.e how many kids will no longer qualify for orthodontic treatmentWhat will be the cost savingIs that cost saving essential to the continued roll out of Childsmile (or whatever it's called)What would have been the impact of retaining this provisionBUT I suspect we will get very little of the above...why? Because no matter which way you cut it it's a removal of current provision and the policy seems to keep those nice and quiet...silent in fact if you look at the health news pages of the Scottish Government. To be fair though they did find the time to keep us updated on the fact that Salmond had porridge with his cabinet yesterday. Phew. I'll see what l can find out but I'm not promising anything.

[Jack]

Interesting..do you have a link that confirms what "minor adjustments" actually means or that that won't cost significant sums to have done?All I can find from the BDA is this:"While orthodontic care is extremely important, and certainly must be funded for those with a genuine clinical need, paying for it for those who are not judged to need it according to formal criteria is a questionable use of finite financial resources. What is important is that the change that is being implemented is properly explained to patients by Government, so that both they and the dental profession have a proper understanding of what parents can and can’t expect the state to provide for their children.” So they are essentially saying is lets get the change properly explained so everyone has a proper understanding. Good point, tis a shame that there still seems so little information to get that understanding.Would be good to know:Just how many NHS procedures this change will remove..i.e how many kids will no longer qualify for orthodontic treatmentWhat will be the cost savingIs that cost saving essential to the continued roll out of Childsmile (or whatever it's called)What would have been the impact of retaining this provisionBUT I suspect we will get very little of the above...why? Because no matter which way you cut it it's a removal of current provision and the policy seems to keep those nice and quiet...silent in fact if you look at the health news pages of the Scottish Government. To be fair though they did find the time to keep us updated on the fact that Salmond had porridge with his cabinet yesterday. Phew. I'll see what l can find out but I'm not promising anything.

[One Day Soon]

Interesting..do you have a link that confirms what "minor adjustments" actually means or that that won't cost significant sums to have done?

All I can find from the BDA is this:

"While orthodontic care is extremely important, and certainly must be funded for those with a genuine clinical need, paying for it for those who are not judged to need it according to formal criteria is a questionable use of finite financial resources. What is important is that the change that is being implemented is properly explained to patients by Government, so that both they and the dental profession have a proper understanding of what parents can and can’t expect the state to provide for their children.”

So they are essentially saying is lets get the change properly explained so everyone has a proper understanding. Good point, tis a shame that there still seems so little information to get that understanding.

Would be good to know:

Just how many NHS procedures this change will remove..i.e how many kids will no longer qualify for orthodontic treatment

What will be the cost saving

Is that cost saving essential to the continued roll out of Childsmile (or whatever it's called)

What would have been the impact of retaining this provision


BUT I suspect we will get very little of the above...why? Because no matter which way you cut it it's a removal of current provision and the policy seems to keep those nice and quiet...silent in fact if you look at the health news pages of the Scottish Government. To be fair though they did find the time to keep us updated on the fact that Salmond had porridge with his cabinet yesterday. Phew.

I'm still waiting for the justification for giving millionaires free prescriptions while kids won't have access to the full range of dental treatment. Perhaps its because millionaires fund the SNP but kids with poor teeth don't?

[Dashing Bob S]

I'm still waiting for the justification for giving millionaires free prescriptions while kids won't have access to the full range of dental treatment. Perhaps its because millionaires fund the SNP but kids with poor teeth don't?

Therefore they should quickly change policy to make sure that only millionaires are allowed free prescriptions. With the savings they make on the plebs, they could sort out the bairn's choppers.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'm still waiting for the justification for giving millionaires free prescriptions while kids won't have access to the full range of dental treatment. Perhaps its because millionaires fund the SNP but kids with poor teeth don't?

millionaires fund lots of parties:confused:

[One Day Soon]

millionaires fund lots of parties:confused:

Perhaps they do but there's only one party in charge of Scotland and that's the SNP who have decided millionaires can have free prescriptions at the same time as stopping kids from getting the full range of dental treatment. Nice.

[steakbake]

Perhaps they do but there's only one party in charge of Scotland and that's the SNP who have decided millionaires can have free prescriptions at the same time as stopping kids from getting the full range of dental treatment. Nice.

Wasn't there another party who were in favour of dishing out child benefit to everyone, regardless of income? So the poorest in society got exactly the same as the richest in society? And those on incomes who could afford it got tax breaks?

Different strokes, same political jokes.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Perhaps they do but there's only one party in charge of Scotland and that's the SNP who have decided millionaires can have free prescriptions at the same time as stopping kids from getting the full range of dental treatment. Nice.

so what's your beef, would you prefer millionaires paid for subscriptions and we spent a small fortune means testing everyone and that some kids got non essential dental treatment for free.

Look after your kids teeth and it won't be an issue will it??

[One Day Soon]

Wasn't there another party who were in favour of dishing out child benefit to everyone, regardless of income? So the poorest in society got exactly the same as the richest in society? And those on incomes who could afford it got tax breaks?

Different strokes, same political jokes.

Almost five years after the SNP took over running Scotland I'm a little more interested in what this SNP government is doing now.

Incontinent universality is debatable at the best of times, in the context of this economic and public spending road crash it is beyond reckless. Its gratuitous stupidity. Of course kids don't have votes and don't fund political parties. If they did they might still be in receipt of the full range of dental treatment.

Do we just park this wee policy gem along with the local income tax, reducing class sizes and Mr Megrahi?

[One Day Soon]

so what's your beef, would you prefer millionaires paid for subscriptions and we spent a small fortune means testing everyone and that some kids got non essential dental treatment for free.

Look after your kids teeth and it won't be an issue will it??


By your logic we wouldn't try to make sure the richest pay all their taxes either. Why can we spend so much time and money looking for road tax evaders, benefits cheats, absent fathers not paying child support, finding and locking up fine defaulters etc but when it comes to a progressive approach to who pays for what the apologists come out of the woodwork for the richest in society. It smells a lot like the bankers line that they have to pay high wages and big bonuses otherwise they won't get the best people.

Perhaps you can advise me how to make sure my kids teeth grow straight? Perhaps you can explain why kids with crap parents should pay for parental neglect with bad teeth?

[Jack]

I’m still looking for the dental thing but would also like to comment of the free prescriptions.

The ethos of the NHS has always been that healthcare should be free at the point of access for everyone.

Nicola Sturgeon said at the time free prescriptions came about "On behalf of the 600,000 adults living in families in Scotland with an annual income of less than £16,000 who until now have not been entitled to free prescriptions …" I’d rather think about those 600,000 people benefitting than the few hundred millionaires – who are probably with BUPA anyway! And excluding them would probably be more expensive [bureaucratically] than including them!!

I know there are charges for various things, it doesn’t IMO, make those charges legitimate within the original values of the NHS. I appreciate there will be grey areas, what is and isn't medical, and where a professionals clinical judgement or opinion will mean some will and some wont get treatment, or will get different treatment. That’s always going to be the case.

[steakbake]

Almost five years after the SNP took over running Scotland I'm a little more interested in what this SNP government is doing now.

Incontinent universality is debatable at the best of times, in the context of this economic and public spending road crash it is beyond reckless. Its gratuitous stupidity. Of course kids don't have votes and don't fund political parties. If they did they might still be in receipt of the full range of dental treatment.

Do we just park this wee policy gem along with the local income tax, reducing class sizes and Mr Megrahi?

I'm fascinated to know what moral high ground Labour stand on when it comes to Megrahi?

The fact of the matter is, LIT, reducing class sizes and Megrahi happened before May. The electorate voted the SNP back in with an even bigger majority: Labour were horsed.

So, far from Iain Gray trying to rip up the SNP manifesto being a representation of how the Scottish people feel, I think the subsequent election result and the fact that all three main opposition parties are now in the process of or have replaced their leaders speaks for itself.

More generally, I'm sure we'd all love parties to slavishly stick to the orthodoxy of their manifesto pledges. Fact of the matter is that it seems critics recognise that realpolitik plays a part only when it's their own particular favoured shower of idiots in charge instead of someone elses.

It's just the way it is in the cold light of reality. It would be no different for Labour, Cons, LibDems or the Loony Party if they were in power.

[One Day Soon]

I'm fascinated to know what moral high ground Labour stand on when it comes to Megrahi?

Just remind me again who it was that released Scotland's biggest mass murderer and why?

The fact of the matter is, LIT, reducing class sizes and Megrahi happened before May. The electorate voted the SNP back in with an even bigger majority: Labour were horsed.

I think you mean that the SNP's promise to replace Council Tax with LIT and to reduce class sizes was supposed to have happened before May's election but didn't because, er, despite promising those things they decided once they were elected that they wouldn't bother after all. Megrahi was indeed released before May, two years ago in fact because he was supposedly about to die. Labour were horsed, everyone else was. Good, because now we can concentrate on the record of our SNP government.

So, far from Iain Gray trying to rip up the SNP manifesto being a representation of how the Scottish people feel, I think the subsequent election result and the fact that all three main opposition parties are now in the process of or have replaced their leaders speaks for itself.

Just so, but naff all to do with the SNP as a government.

More generally, I'm sure we'd all love parties to slavishly stick to the orthodoxy of their manifesto pledges. Fact of the matter is that it seems critics recognise that realpolitik plays a part only when it's their own particular favoured shower of idiots in charge instead of someone elses.

'slavishly stick to the orthodoxy of their manifesto pledges' :faf: This crew refused to even try to bring forward a referendum proposal for debate in the last parliament because they said it would be voted down, but they were quite happy at the same time to spend tax payers money on the 'National Conversation' about, er, Scotland's constitutional future. So, free debate was off limits but paid for promotion of constitutional change was fine. Now we are in a position where they not only won't say when a referendum will be, they can't even tell us when it is that they will tell us when it is going to be. Its only the SNP's founding principal after all.

Having junked vast slabs of their manifesto last time and covered it up with their huge spin machine it's all going a bit crap a lot earlier this time.

It's just the way it is in the cold light of reality. It would be no different for Labour, Cons, LibDems or the Loony Party if they were in power.

Except that isn't how our new masters were spinning it in the election. If you remember they were positive, visionary, forward looking etc. Already looks a lot different and this time they are in charge on their own.



Underneath the go-faster stripes, plastic wheel trims, added spoilers and furry dice, this SNP vehicle is the same old, same old. Independence at any price.

[steakbake]

Underneath the go-faster stripes, plastic wheel trims, added spoilers and furry dice, this SNP vehicle is the same old, same old. Independence at any price.

Have a wee lie down in a darkened room you trumpet! :wink:

Hope I don't get as wound up as you do when your bunch get back into power!

[Betty Boop]

so what's your beef, would you prefer millionaires paid for subscriptions and we spent a small fortune means testing everyone and that some kids got non essential dental treatment for free.

Look after your kids teeth and it won't be an issue will it??

With all due respect, orthodontics is not a matter of 'looking after your kids teeth'. Teeth can be crowded,buck or gappy, that doesn't mean they are not clean.

[flash]

It's not often I agree with you but I do on this. Pissing money up the wall willy-nilly on an unnecessary tram system and new bridge but we'll let kids' teeth get into a state. Joke.

What's the trams got to do with the Scottish Government? It was a Labour/Lib Dem coalition on Edinburgh Council that voted them through.

[One Day Soon]

Have a wee lie down in a darkened room you trumpet! :wink:

Hope I don't get as wound up as you do when your bunch get back into power!

That's about the usual level of abuse from the fellow travellers. The only difference is that you usually see it in the comment section of the pieces in the Scotsman. Same hallmarks though, personal abuse and disengagement from the facts.

Every time I see the SNP Ministers I'm reminded of that very unfortunate image from 1978 of people like Rioch etc hanging out of the sides of a car (I think it was a Morris Marina but who knows?) wearing tartan bunnets and scarves and grinning their heads off. In fact they could cover 'We're on the march with Ally's army' and start with an independence rally at Hampden while they're at it. Same car tarted up but at the end of the day its still all spin and no substance.

Like I said, independence at any cost.

[steakbake]

That's about the usual level of abuse from the fellow travellers. The only difference is that you usually see it in the comment section of the pieces in the Scotsman. Same hallmarks though, personal abuse and disengagement from the facts.

Every time I see the SNP Ministers I'm reminded of that very unfortunate image from 1978 of people like Rioch etc hanging out of the sides of a car (I think it was a Morris Marina but who knows?) wearing tartan bunnets and scarves and grinning their heads off. In fact they could cover 'We're on the march with Ally's army' and start with an independence rally at Hampden while they're at it. Same car tarted up but at the end of the day its still all spin and no substance.

Like I said, independence at any cost.

Abuse? Hardly. Its safe to say though, that your buttons are easily pushed!

[allmodcons]

That's about the usual level of abuse from the fellow travellers. The only difference is that you usually see it in the comment section of the pieces in the Scotsman. Same hallmarks though, personal abuse and disengagement from the facts.

Every time I see the SNP Ministers I'm reminded of that very unfortunate image from 1978 of people like Rioch etc hanging out of the sides of a car (I think it was a Morris Marina but who knows?) wearing tartan bunnets and scarves and grinning their heads off. In fact they could cover 'We're on the march with Ally's army' and start with an independence rally at Hampden while they're at it. Same car tarted up but at the end of the day its still all spin and no substance.

Like I said, independence at any cost.

I shouldn't bother really, but I couldn't resist replying to the pish you spout! As I said at the last election you are one sore loser and, sadly for you, you still haven't gotten over it?

At the last Scottish Election the SNP got huge backing from individuals right across the political spectrum and who did the Labour Party roll out - Ally McCoist, Tom Boyd and Alex Ferguson!!!

More like we're on the march (not) with Ally, Tom and Alex's army. Get over it ODS. Labour deserved to get humped at the last Scottish Election and deep down I suspect you know it.

[steakbake]

Like this?

[One Day Soon]

Abuse? Hardly. Its safe to say though, that your buttons are easily pushed!

And still ignoring the facts.

[One Day Soon]

I shouldn't bother really, but I couldn't resist replying to the pish you spout! As I said at the last election you are one sore loser and, sadly for you, you still haven't gotten over it?

Well over it. The tartan brigade are the ones who want to talk about the last election rather than what's happening now.

At the last Scottish Election the SNP got huge backing from individuals right across the political spectrum and who did the Labour Party roll out - Ally McCoist, Tom Boyd and Alex Ferguson!!!

Fair enough, but what have you got against Alex Ferguson?

More like we're on the march (not) with Ally, Tom and Alex's army. Get over it ODS. Labour deserved to get humped at the last Scottish Election and deep down I suspect you know it.

Labour did deserve to lose the last election. I'm pretty sure I already said that on another thread. But that has nothing to do with what the SNP are doing in government, on their own, right now.

It's a sure sign when a policy challenge is raised and the come back is nothing but "we hammered Labour at the last election". The election is over, this is government and the SNP are being found out.

Now, about taking dental care away from those Scottish kids....

[One Day Soon]

Like this?

Exactly like that. He'd look right at home with the Brigadooners.

[bighairyfaeleith]

By your logic we wouldn't try to make sure the richest pay all their taxes either. Why can we spend so much time and money looking for road tax evaders, benefits cheats, absent fathers not paying child support, finding and locking up fine defaulters etc but when it comes to a progressive approach to who pays for what the apologists come out of the woodwork for the richest in society. It smells a lot like the bankers line that they have to pay high wages and big bonuses otherwise they won't get the best people.

Perhaps you can advise me how to make sure my kids teeth grow straight? Perhaps you can explain why kids with crap parents should pay for parental neglect with bad teeth?

not my logic at all, however do I think we should implement means testing in order that a few folk pay for prescriptions, no absolutely not.

Lets be honest, your just looking for an excuse to kick the nats, try being honest and just admit you want to have a rant at them.

[bighairyfaeleith]

With all due respect, orthodontics is not a matter of 'looking after your kids teeth'. Teeth can be crowded,buck or gappy, that doesn't mean they are not clean.

with all due respect, looking after your kids teeth is more than just making sure they are brushed. Your right that teeth can just come in funny and cause genuine problems, but I see nothing in the directive that means these won't still get dealt with.

[One Day Soon]

not my logic at all, however do I think we should implement means testing in order that a few folk pay for prescriptions, no absolutely not.

Amazing. So means testing is ok for just about everything else but not prescriptions? Why is it ok to means test income for tax purposes but not for prescriptions?

Lets be honest, your just looking for an excuse to kick the nats, try being honest and just admit you want to have a rant at them.

Lets be honest, your just looking for an excuse to defend the nats, try being honest and just admit you want to stand up for them.

I will repeat the questions I asked you again:
Perhaps you can advise me how to make sure my kids teeth grow straight? Perhaps you can explain why kids with crap parents should pay for parental neglect with bad teeth?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Lets be honest, your just looking for an excuse to defend the nats, try being honest and just admit you want to stand up for them.

I will repeat the questions I asked you again:
Perhaps you can advise me how to make sure my kids teeth grow straight? Perhaps you can explain why kids with crap parents should pay for parental neglect with bad teeth?

Don't need an excuse, I voted for them and by and large support there policies, I'm not hiding here.

Now lets answer your questions.

Perhaps you can advise me how to make sure my kids teeth grow straight?

Take them regularly to the dentist, if there is a problem get it fixed. It's not rocket science and nobody is stopping you from doing this are they?

Perhaps you can explain why kids with crap parents should pay for parental neglect with bad teeth?

Who said they should, but lets be honest are these crap parents going to take them to the dentist whether it's free or not?

I think you would be come across as much more credible if you argued using facts rather than just scaremongering, it's very sad, very sad indeed!

[One Day Soon]

Don't need an excuse, I voted for them and by and large support there policies, I'm not hiding here.

That part is honest. I'll give you that.


Now lets answer your questions.

Perhaps you can advise me how to make sure my kids teeth grow straight?

Take them regularly to the dentist, if there is a problem get it fixed. It's not rocket science and nobody is stopping you from doing this are they?


I think you should have checked out what this SNP policy will actually mean before just giving it your blanket endorsement:

"Parents face paying up to £2,000 to fix their children’s teeth because of a Scottish Government plan that will force all but the most severe cases to go private.

Last night – as Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon announced that ministers had spent £171,000 on a TV channel for the health service – it emerged that the SNP is restricting who can see an NHS orthodontist.
A north-east dentist warned that the changes meant thousands of patients a year could now have to pay for their braces. And aspiring model Kimberley Bain, who was bullied at school over the gaps between her teeth, said the Scottish Government would be making a huge mistake if it underestimated the impact that bad teeth could have on youngsters.
Government officials have told orthodontists to prove that a patient’s health will be improved by treatment before referring them.
Any brace that is for cosmetic purposes will no longer be funded." Source, The Press and Journal, 28 Sept 2011

Taking a child to the dentist doesn't make their teeth grow straight, you need braces to correct malforming or squint growth. These will no longer be provided on the NHS.




Perhaps you can explain why kids with crap parents should pay for parental neglect with bad teeth?

Who said they should, but lets be honest are these crap parents going to take them to the dentist whether it's free or not?


You said kids with crap parents should be left to pay for parental neglect with bad teeth. You did so when you argued that "Look after your kids teeth and it won't be an issue will it??". Which in effect means 'I'm all right because I'll look after my kids teeth. Any child unlucky enough to have neglectful parents can swivel because the parents won't bother about their teeth and when the NHS finds them badly formed they won't be eligibile for corrective treatment either.'



I think you would be come across as much more credible if you argued using facts rather than just scaremongering, it's very sad, very sad indeed!

You've got your facts above as requested. You will be much more credible if you can deal with the facts about the consequences of this SNP policy instead of just accusing any criticism of being scaremongering. It's very sad when people mindlessly defend them.

[bighairyfaeleith]

You've got your facts above as requested. You will be much more credible if you can deal with the facts about the consequences of this SNP policy instead of just accusing any criticism of being scaremongering. It's very sad when people mindlessly defend them.

:faf:

There are no facts there, just more scaremongering and twisting of peoples words to suit your own angry little mind.

My understanding is that this change will simply bring scotland into line with the rest of the uk in that we will be using IOTN.

And just to prove I can also cut and paste, here is something far more interesting and informative than what you pasted

Dr Robert Kinloch, Chair of the BDA's Scottish Dental Practice Committee, explained:

"Scotland has an excellent scheme called Childsmile which is held up as an example of best practice across the UK. It was introduced in the Labour-Liberal Democrat Coalition Dental Action Plan in 2005 and its success is being built on by the current SNP administration.

Childsmile seeks to tackle oral health inequalities by targeting children with education, advice and interventions. Childsmile has the full support of the BDA and we are delighted to see the Scottish Government investing what we calculate to be approximately three million pounds in its further development. This will mean that, as of next week, it will benefit children across the whole of Scotland.

While orthodontic care is extremely important, and certainly must be funded for those with a genuine clinical need, paying for it for those who are not judged to need it according to formal criteria is a questionable use of finite financial resources. What is important is that the change that is being implemented is properly explained to patients by Government, so that both they and the dental profession have a proper understanding of what parents can and can‚ expect the state to provide for their children."

If this policy is proven to damage kids dental care then I won't support it, but right now there is very little evidence to suggest thats the case, so maybe we should wait for real facts and not just be swayed by headlines.

[One Day Soon]

:faf:

There are no facts there, just more scaremongering and twisting of peoples words to suit your own angry little mind.

My understanding is that this change will simply bring scotland into line with the rest of the uk in that we will be using IOTN.

And just to prove I can also cut and paste, here is something far more interesting and informative than what you pasted

Dr Robert Kinloch, Chair of the BDA's Scottish Dental Practice Committee, explained:

"Scotland has an excellent scheme called Childsmile which is held up as an example of best practice across the UK. It was introduced in the Labour-Liberal Democrat Coalition Dental Action Plan in 2005 and its success is being built on by the current SNP administration.

Childsmile seeks to tackle oral health inequalities by targeting children with education, advice and interventions. Childsmile has the full support of the BDA and we are delighted to see the Scottish Government investing what we calculate to be approximately three million pounds in its further development. This will mean that, as of next week, it will benefit children across the whole of Scotland.

While orthodontic care is extremely important, and certainly must be funded for those with a genuine clinical need, paying for it for those who are not judged to need it according to formal criteria is a questionable use of finite financial resources. What is important is that the change that is being implemented is properly explained to patients by Government, so that both they and the dental profession have a proper understanding of what parents can and can‚ expect the state to provide for their children."

If this policy is proven to damage kids dental care then I won't support it, but right now there is very little evidence to suggest thats the case, so maybe we should wait for real facts and not just be swayed by headlines.


I see you ignored my questions again. Alex Salmond would be proud - lots of spin and bluster, but no substance.

And I just love the idea of 'let's see what damage it does to children's dental care and then maybe do something about it once the damage is done'.

[allmodcons]

Labour did deserve to lose the last election. I'm pretty sure I already said that on another thread. But that has nothing to do with what the SNP are doing in government, on their own, right now.

It's a sure sign when a policy challenge is raised and the come back is nothing but "we hammered Labour at the last election". The election is over, this is government and the SNP are being found out.

Now, about taking dental care away from those Scottish kids....


Sorry ODS but I'm not interested in getting into a debate regarding dental care because, frankly, I haven't got the time. I was responding to your post regarding SNP Ministers and Ally's Tartan Army which, I'll say again, was you spouting pish. You can't seem to get into a political debate without going off on one about all things SNP. The deep rooted fear (?) you have towards anyone with an Nationalist agenda always manifests itself in you losing the plot at some stage in the debate.

This is sad really because, whilst you make many valid points during a debate, they're more often than not lost when you let your prejudices take over.

Looking beyond the Independence issue, I'd say my politics are not too disimilar to your own but, ultimately, you quite clearly cannot look beyond the Independence issue.

[One Day Soon]

Sorry ODS but I'm not interested in getting into a debate regarding dental care because, frankly, I haven't got the time.

'I don't have time to debate about dental care but I do have time to talk about anything else that makes it look like a criticism of the SNP government is unreasonable or irrational.' For the Nationalist fellow travellers the discomfort of being in office and seeing the gloss coming off is too sensitive a subject to bear. This will get worse - the Lib Dems are the form guide.

I was responding to your post regarding SNP Ministers and Ally's Tartan Army which, I'll say again, was you spouting pish. You can't seem to get into a political debate without going off on one about all things SNP. The deep rooted fear (?) you have towards anyone with an Nationalist agenda always manifests itself in you losing the plot at some stage in the debate.

I agreed with you that Labour deserved to lose the last election. But having shot that particular fox you now fall back on an argument which says it is simply not allowed to criticise what the SNP government is doing. Going off on one? I don't think I have accused you of 'spouting pish', but that's the intemperate language you have used.

This is sad really because, whilst you make many valid points during a debate, they're more often than not lost when you let your prejudices take over.

The Nationalist intention is to try to present Scotland and the SNP as the same thing so that criticism of the SNP can be dismissed - or worse, vilified - as criticising Scotland. I don't have 'prejudices' I have a different political view and I'm entitled to express that view and to do so in words of my own choice. This is not a totalitarian state and tomorrow does not belong to one political group.

Looking beyond the Independence issue, I'd say my politics are not too disimilar to your own but, ultimately, you quite clearly cannot look beyond the Independence issue.

There is no looking beyond the independence issue, our lives are about to change (or not) forever. It is the biggest subject on the political table and the Nationalists can't even tell us when the debate and vote will take place. And core to the debate on that matter is what the people who are arguing for independence are saying and doing in other areas of government. I think restricting children's dental treatment while allowing millionaires free prescriptions falls into that category - as does Megrahi, advising people in England to vote for the party currently propping up the Tories and having a totally bonkers economic policy. I may be right or wrong on these matters and others but trying to avoid them is like saying 'let's talk about Tony Blair's time as Prime Minister but we won't discuss Iraq'.

I have no idea whether our politics are similar, but if you are pro-SNP and pro-independence then 'similar' would have to have a different dictionary definition to the one I know.

Having said all that - and acknowledging that I often have a robust debating style - it isn't my intention to pointlessly provoke. Mostly.

[greenlex]

There is no looking beyond the independence issue, our lives are about to change (or not) forever. It is the biggest subject on the political table and the Nationalists can't even tell us when the debate and vote will take place. And core to the debate on that matter is what the people who are arguing for independence are saying and doing in other areas of government. I think restricting children's dental treatment while allowing millionaires free prescriptions falls into that category - as does Megrahi, advising people in England to vote for the party currently propping up the Tories and having a totally bonkers economic policy. I may be right or wrong on these matters and others but trying to avoid them is like saying 'let's talk about Tony Blair's time as Prime Minister but we won't discuss Iraq'.I have no idea whether our politics are similar, but if you are pro-SNP and pro-independence then 'similar' would have to have a different dictionary definition to the one I know. Having said all that - and acknowledging that I often have a robust debating style - it isn't my intention to pointlessly provoke. Mostly. Not really a political animal ODS but what does it matter when the Nats announce when a referendum will take place? Whenever it is it will be debated and voted on by the electorate. Its the people who will decide if and when we want independence not the Nats. I know they will be trying to wait till their star is back on the rise but are the electorate that shallow when it comes to something as important as independence?

[lucky]

Not really a political animal ODS but what does it matter when the Nats announce when a referendum will take place? Whenever it is it will be debated and voted on by the electorate. Its the people who will decide if and when we want independence not the Nats. I know they will be trying to wait till their star is back on the rise but are the electorate that shallow when it comes to something as important as independence?

It vital for Scotland to know when we will be asked the biggest question in our political life. It's absurd for a party that claims to be pro independence not to bring forward their plans ASAP. The SNP exist to achieve separation. But they don't want to bring on the vote and debate

[bighairyfaeleith]

It vital for Scotland to know when we will be asked the biggest question in our political life. It's absurd for a party that claims to be pro independence not to bring forward their plans ASAP. The SNP exist to achieve separation. But they don't want to bring on the vote and debate

They have said it will be towards the end of there term, so that means we have around three years to make up our minds. The only people this seems to worry are the people dead set against independence.

I have to say the more David Cameron tries to pressurizes us to have a vote, the more I think we should make them wait until we are ready.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I see you ignored my questions again. Alex Salmond would be proud - lots of spin and bluster, but no substance.

And I just love the idea of 'let's see what damage it does to children's dental care and then maybe do something about it once the damage is done'.

Lies lies and more lies, tony blair would love you!!

Why do you feel the need to spin what everyone says into something negative, is your case really that thin?

Like I said earlier, sad, really really sad.

[One Day Soon]

Lies lies and more lies, tony blair would love you!!

Why do you feel the need to spin what everyone says into something negative, is your case really that thin?

Like I said earlier, sad, really really sad.


You don't just run away from my questions, you even run away from your own statements.

Let's put it another way. I'm a child whose parents are neglectful, selfish and uninterested in raising me. I have a bunch of social and health issues - one of which is my dental health. Since they aren't bothered about my teeth and don't take me to the dentist for long periods I develop teeth that are badly malformed, perhaps healthy and solid, but which look badly squint or crossed. This affects my self confidence and leads to bullying.

I already have a pretty crap life. The question is should I get free dental treatment on the NHS or not? Should millionaires get free prescriptions while I can't be given treatment?

[One Day Soon]

They have said it will be towards the end of there term, so that means we have around three years to make up our minds. The only people this seems to worry are the people dead set against independence.

I have to say the more David Cameron tries to pressurizes us to have a vote, the more I think we should make them wait until we are ready.

Maybe David Cameron will just go ahead and give the Scottish people the chance to decide for themselves. Can't be anything wrong in that. After all its our decision, not Alex Salmond's.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Maybe David Cameron will just go ahead and give the Scottish people the chance to decide for themselves. Can't be anything wrong in that. After all its our decision, not Alex Salmond's.

Nope but it is Alex's decision when we vote, get over it, you lost ya loser

[One Day Soon]

Nope but it is Alex's decision when we vote, get over it, you lost ya loser

Wow, big letters.

You really don't know much other than how to be abusive do you? Did you even know that Cameron can call the referendum? Probably not. What a winner you are.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Wow, big letters.

You really don't know much other than how to be abusive do you? Did you even know that Cameron can call the referendum? Probably not. What a winner you are.

I wouldn't call that abusive, factual possibly but not abusive. Your quite a sensitive wee soul aren't you?

Yes I know cameron can call the election, I also know he's not that stupid. If anything was going to get a yes vote in scotland it would be a vote forced on us by a tory government in england.

[One Day Soon]

I wouldn't call that abusive, factual possibly but not abusive. Your quite a sensitive wee soul aren't you?

Yes I know cameron can call the election, I also know he's not that stupid. If anything was going to get a yes vote in scotland it would be a vote forced on us by a tory government in england.

Its a referendum, not an election. What a ludicrous suggestion, letting us - the people of Scotland - decide our own future. Yeah that would really be a bad thing to 'force' on us. I hate it when people give me the chance to make my own mind up.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Its a referendum, not an election. What a ludicrous suggestion, letting us - the people of Scotland - decide our own future. Yeah that would really be a bad thing to 'force' on us. I hate it when people give me the chance to make my own mind up.

oooh sorry, it's not an election, how thick of me:rolleyes:

It would be a bad thing when the party we have democratically elected to lead our country have promised to give us a referendum within this term of the parliament anyway. So you will get your chance, just learn to be patient, are you really that desperate to lose another election, sorry vote?:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

oooh sorry, it's not an election, how thick of me:rolleyes:

It would be a bad thing when the party we have democratically elected to lead our country have promised to give us a referendum within this term of the parliament anyway. So you will get your chance, just learn to be patient, are you really that desperate to lose another election, sorry vote?:greengrin

Aye, you're not too hot on factual accuracy are you - who's a sensitive wee soul now?

Like it or not the Tory/Lib-Dem coalition was also democratically elected to lead our country. What's more, the referendum has implications for the whole UK not just Scotland. If Scotland votes to become a separate country then a new UK is created as a consequence so I'd say Cameron has every right to call a referendum if he wants to.

More importantly as soon as he does call a referendum - if he does - the question of who has called it becomes irrelevant. It immediately becomes a real debate on a separate Scotland or Scotland within the UK. If the pro-independence campaign wants to makes its argument around 'we shouldn't be having this vote' then fantastic. The quicker we get certainty on our future the better for everyone.

Oh and I think you will find that the last referendum as (opposed to election) was the one that Labour won out of the park, led by Toby Blair, when they delivered the Scottish Parliament after Salmond famously and wrongly - as usual on all the big issues - claimed that Labour "couldn't deliver a pizza"'.

[ancienthibby]

Aye, you're not too hot on factual accuracy are you - who's a sensitive wee soul now?

Like it or not the Tory/Lib-Dem coalition was also democratically elected to lead our country. What's more, the referendum has implications for the whole UK not just Scotland. If Scotland votes to become a separate country then a new UK is created as a consequence so I'd say Cameron has every right to call a referendum if he wants to.

More importantly as soon as he does call a referendum - if he does - the question of who has called it becomes irrelevant. It immediately becomes a real debate on a separate Scotland or Scotland within the UK. If the pro-independence campaign wants to makes its argument around 'we shouldn't be having this vote' then fantastic. The quicker we get certainty on our future the better for everyone.

Oh and I think you will find that the last referendum as (opposed to election) was the one that Labour won out of the park, led by Toby Blair, when they delivered the Scottish Parliament after Salmond famously and wrongly - as usual on all the big issues - claimed that Labour "couldn't deliver a pizza"'.


Think you'll find, ODiouS, that The Eckmeister, was ahead of his time as usual.

The proof of that is the election in May - as a starter!!

And now compounded by the utter abjectivity of Labour politicians in Holyrood, as in nobody wanting to stand for the so-called leadership of the 'non-existant' Scottish Labour Party.

Oops - of course, we have the personality by-passed Johann Lamont and that man whose name even Ed Miliband can't remember - and then the poor invisible man claims he can't remember his own kids names!!

Could not deliver a pizza??

More like could not deliver a postage stamp.

A wee aside - will you please stop shouting.

:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[Dashing Bob S]

So in Scotland we have three parties that are unpopular UK wide - Cons/LibDems current fiasco, and New Labour for previous mess-making.

We have three parties which don't exist or soon won't on a Scottish level, -Labour, Lib Dems and Cons.

We have a governing party that is unpopular - The SNP.


Would that be a fair summary of our healthy democracy?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Aye, you're not too hot on factual accuracy are you - who's a sensitive wee soul now?

Like it or not the Tory/Lib-Dem coalition was also democratically elected to lead our country. What's more, the referendum has implications for the whole UK not just Scotland. If Scotland votes to become a separate country then a new UK is created as a consequence so I'd say Cameron has every right to call a referendum if he wants to.

More importantly as soon as he does call a referendum - if he does - the question of who has called it becomes irrelevant. It immediately becomes a real debate on a separate Scotland or Scotland within the UK. If the pro-independence campaign wants to makes its argument around 'we shouldn't be having this vote' then fantastic. The quicker we get certainty on our future the better for everyone.

Oh and I think you will find that the last referendum as (opposed to election) was the one that Labour won out of the park, led by Toby Blair, when they delivered the Scottish Parliament after Salmond famously and wrongly - as usual on all the big issues - claimed that Labour "couldn't deliver a pizza"'.

Oh I don't think the pro independance campaign would be based around that, it wouldn't need to be, salmond would love cameron to call a snap election, **** sorry referendum. It would play straight into his hands and cameron knows this, surprised such a sharp mind as yours can't see this:confused:

I love how as you lose each argument you just keep trying to twist it to a new subject with some fake outrage hoping you will win the next one. Maybe one day you will actually win an argument on here, doubt I'll live that long mind.

Anyway as this has drifted way off topic again I'll bail out for now and let it get back on topic, if anyone really cares that much about the original topic of course.

[ancienthibby]

So in Scotland we have three parties that are unpopular UK wide - Cons/LibDems current fiasco, and New Labour for previous mess-making.

We have three parties which don't exist or soon won't on a Scottish level, -Labour, Lib Dems and Cons.

We have a governing party that is unpopular - The SNP.


Would that be a fair summary of our healthy democracy?

The last real healthy test of public opinion, being an election in May, showed that there was no more popular party in the country than the SNP - causing all three opposition parties to ditch their leaders!!:agree::agree::agree:

[One Day Soon]

[/B]Think you'll find, ODiouS, that The Eckmeister, was ahead of his time as usual.

The proof of that is the election in May - as a starter!!

And now compounded by the utter abjectivity of Labour politicians in Holyrood, as in nobody wanting to stand for the so-called leadership of the 'non-existant' Scottish Labour Party.

Oops - of course, we have the personality by-passed Johann Lamont and that man whose name even Ed Miliband can't remember - and then the poor invisible man claims he can't remember his own kids names!!

Could not deliver a pizza??

More like could not deliver a postage stamp.

A wee aside - will you please stop shouting.

:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin


You're back! It's good to see the Scottish Nationalist apologists re-emerging.

Salmond has always been ahead of his time.

He was ahead of his time when he said Scotland's economy should be modelled on Ireland's and Iceland's - and then they both went bust. Wrong Alex.

He was ahead of his time when he said he would replace Council Tax with a Local Income Tax in the last parliament and then didn't do it. Wrong again Alex.

He was ahead of his time when he said he would cut class sizes for Primary 1s to a maximum of 18 in the last Parliament - and then didn't do it. Wrong yet again Alex.

He was ahead of his time when he said Scotland's worst mass murderer Megrahi should be released because he was about to die - and two years later the man with the miracle prostate is still alive. Very wrong again Alex.

He was ahead of his time when he said NATO intervention in Serbia to protect Albanian Kosovars from Milosevic would strengthen Milosevic's position - and then NATO ended the ethnic cleansing and mass murders. Wrong on an international stage Alex.

He was ahead of his time when he said people in England should vote for the Lib-Dems - and then the Lib/Dem MPs he told them to elect decided to prop up the Tory government. Wrong again and we're still paying for it Alex.

As to the Labour leadership contest I think you need to make your mind up. Is it the case as you assert in one sentence that nobody wants to stand or is it the case as you assert in the very next sentence that there are two candidates? I know that Nationalists are not too keen on facts because they tend to be exposed by them but you could at least try to be consistent within your own posts.

"Labour could not deliver a pizza, never mind a Scottish Parliament" - the words of Alex Salmond. What happened next? Oh yes, Tony Blair delivered the Referendum and the Parliament. Wrong, spectacularly, again Alex.

Feel free to be an apologist for the SNP's decision to restrict dental treatment for kids too if you like.

[One Day Soon]

So in Scotland we have three parties that are unpopular UK wide - Cons/LibDems current fiasco, and New Labour for previous mess-making.

We have three parties which don't exist or soon won't on a Scottish level, -Labour, Lib Dems and Cons.

We have a governing party that is unpopular - The SNP.


Would that be a fair summary of our healthy democracy?

Looks about right to me.

[One Day Soon]

Oh I don't think the pro independance campaign would be based around that, it wouldn't need to be, salmond would love cameron to call a snap election, **** sorry referendum. It would play straight into his hands and cameron knows this, surprised such a sharp mind as yours can't see this:confused:

I love how as you lose each argument you just keep trying to twist it to a new subject with some fake outrage hoping you will win the next one. Maybe one day you will actually win an argument on here, doubt I'll live that long mind.

Anyway as this has drifted way off topic again I'll bail out for now and let it get back on topic, if anyone really cares that much about the original topic of course.


Very touchy.

I'm not surprised you're bailing out, you could hardly have made a bigger erchie of it.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Personal viewpoint. Unless we means test for absolutely everything (extremely expensive I would have thought) then millionaires should be entitled to anything going free to everyone else.Not a clue how many millionaires we have in Scotland and as previously mentioned probably have private health care anyway even though they are paying their NI and entitled to everything that implies.

BTW I happen to be pro Nationalist and not a millionaire (by a long long way!!!!)

[Beefster]

What's the trams got to do with the Scottish Government? It was a Labour/Lib Dem coalition on Edinburgh Council that voted them through.

The SNP executive and the Lib/SNP council have had plenty of opportunity to reign in spending on the trams. You can't absolve the SNP of their part in the fiasco just because it wasn't their idea initially.

[One Day Soon]

What happened to ancient's deleted post? I didn't take it personally - I can't recall he was personal about anyone else either??!!?

[allmodcons]

Quality. Restrict dental treatment for kids while making prescriptions free for all, including millionaires.

Whose side are the SNP on again? It's amazing really that they feel they can justify withdrawing this treatment for kids while announcing at same time that they're ordering teachers to teach Scottishness, spending over £100,000 on a top civil servant to push independence and letting nursing fall apart.

I'd call them Tartan Tories but I don't think they are even that consistent. Shameless opportunists dressed up as a government while there's no serious opposition to expose them. Still, this is how most governments begin the gradual process of losing touch and falling apart.

Thought this might interest you ODS.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/3471-billy-bragg-adds-his-voice-in-support-of-scottish-independence.html

It always makes me laugh when the SNP get tagged with the old 'Tartan Tories' line, which, as I'm sure you're aware, is a cheap out of date jibe from the mid 1970's.

It's nice, however, to see a leading Socialist voice in England put you straight!! 'Centre Left' I think he says!!!

[Dashing Bob S]

Aye, you're not too hot on factual accuracy are you - who's a sensitive wee soul now?

Like it or not the Tory/Lib-Dem coalition was also democratically elected to lead our country. What's more, the referendum has implications for the whole UK not just Scotland. If Scotland votes to become a separate country then a new UK is created as a consequence so I'd say Cameron has every right to call a referendum if he wants to.

More importantly as soon as he does call a referendum - if he does - the question of who has called it becomes irrelevant. It immediately becomes a real debate on a separate Scotland or Scotland within the UK. If the pro-independence campaign wants to makes its argument around 'we shouldn't be having this vote' then fantastic. The quicker we get certainty on our future the better for everyone.

Oh and I think you will find that the last referendum as (opposed to election) was the one that Labour won out of the park, led by Toby Blair, when they delivered the Scottish Parliament after Salmond famously and wrongly - as usual on all the big issues - claimed that Labour "couldn't deliver a pizza"'.

Come on. You can slag of the SNP all you like, and I'm no fan of them or Salmond, but they are a massive improvement on a moribund, shambolic, opportunist, unprincipled, power-for-it's-own-sake bunch of trolls and nonentities that is the Labour party in Scotland, and England. Thankfully we've finally cottoned on to these guffy scam artists and are now withholding our vote or putting it somewhere it's appreciated. Trying to defend the Labour Party in Scotland it a bit like trying to defend the Tories twenty years ago. Their scene has gone and been - thank god we are finally standing up for ourselves and charting our own course.

[One Day Soon]

Come on. You can slag of the SNP all you like, and I'm no fan of them or Salmond, but they are a massive improvement on a moribund, shambolic, opportunist, unprincipled, power-for-it's-own-sake bunch of trolls and nonentities that is the Labour party in Scotland, and England. Thankfully we've finally cottoned on to these guffy scam artists and are now withholding our vote or putting it somewhere it's appreciated. Trying to defend the Labour Party in Scotland it a bit like trying to defend the Tories twenty years ago. Their scene has gone and been - thank god we are finally standing up for ourselves and charting our own course.

That's all very interesting DBS but I'm not sure what it has to do with my post? I'm not defending the record of Labour in Government on this thread (I could because it was far from all bad, but that is another debate) I'm pointing out Salmond's consistency in getting the big issues wrong.

Did Salmond claim that Labour couldn't be trusted to deliver a pizza never mind a Scottish Parliament? Yes he did.

Did Labour then deliver the Scottish Parliament? Yes they did.

[One Day Soon]

Thought this might interest you ODS.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/3471-billy-bragg-adds-his-voice-in-support-of-scottish-independence.html

It always makes me laugh when the SNP get tagged with the old 'Tartan Tories' line, which, as I'm sure you're aware, is a cheap out of date jibe from the mid 1970's.

It's nice, however, to see a leading Socialist voice in England put you straight!! 'Centre Left' I think he says!!!


Thanks AMC I had a good look at it.

Firstly your article is from newsnet Scotland. I don't know if its actually owned by the SNP but it might as well be for the line it takes on pretty well everything.

Secondly I would put as much stock by Billy Bragg's knowlege of Scottish politics and the constitutional future of our country as I did by the sage advice of Annie Lennox that Scotland should be independent. Funny how these people become more vocal about other things once the records stop selling isn't it?

What's next, perhaps Rihanna's views on Full Fiscal Autonomy or Cilla Black on a universalist approach to health care?

I'm not calling the SNP Tartan Tories because as I wrote previously they are not even that consistent. But they are still doing this: Restricting dental treatment for kids while making prescriptions free for all, including millionaires. What they are is Tartan Opportunists, nothing more or less.

[Betty Boop]

Not a fan of the SNP, however if as rumoured they vote along with Labour this morning, against the privatisation of our public services, then they will have gone up in my estimation. Demo at the City Chambers ! :flag:

[bighairyfaeleith]

Not a fan of the SNP, however if as rumoured they vote along with Labour this morning, against the privatisation of our public services, then they will have gone up in my estimation. Demo at the City Chambers ! :flag:

yep, imagine us saving ten million a year by outsourcing our rubbish men, terrible idea!!

[Jack]

yep, imagine us saving ten million a year by outsourcing our rubbish men, terrible idea!! From what I read / saw last night it would seem this is another cock up by CEC which, rather than save any money has just wasted £4m, or a tenner for every man, woman and child in the city.

[bighairyfaeleith]

From what I read / saw last night it would seem this is another cock up by CEC which, rather than save any money has just wasted £4m, or a tenner for every man, woman and child in the city.

It's only wasted if you choose to ignore the best bid and carry on with the status quo. For too long this council has bent over to certain departments and let them run riot. The councillors should grow a pair and see through the policies in my opinion.

Spending 3 million on a project designed to save tens of millions is a good idea, providing the councillors have the balls to push it through.

Also as the it is quite clear that the privatisation bid will clearly save money over keeping it in house it is very likely that the council will be subject to legal action which could cost more money.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Somebody is due a doing.

[Jack]

It's only wasted if you choose to ignore the best bid and carry on with the status quo. For too long this council has bent over to certain departments and let them run riot. The councillors should grow a pair and see through the policies in my opinion.Spending 3 million on a project designed to save tens of millions is a good idea, providing the councillors have the balls to push it through.Also as the it is quite clear that the privatisation bid will clearly save money over keeping it in house it is very likely that the council will be subject to legal action which could cost more money. It's wasted if you don't go through the right process and leave yourself open to legal challenge. Privatisation, right or wrong, is another issue.

[Kato]

Come on. You can slag of the SNP all you like, and I'm no fan of them or Salmond, but they are a massive improvement on a moribund, shambolic, opportunist, unprincipled, power-for-it's-own-sake bunch of trolls and nonentities that is the Labour party in Scotland, and England.


One of the most accurate assessments of the Labour Party I've ever read.

[One Day Soon]

One of the most accurate assessments of the Labour Party I've ever read.

That's your view of the Labour Party in government throughout 1997 to 2011?

[Betty Boop]

yep, imagine us saving ten million a year by outsourcing our rubbish men, terrible idea!!

Imagine hundreds losing their jobs, and services being outsourced to a private company who are already experiencing difficulties financially. Its not just binmen who are affected, catering, cleaning, building maintenance, council tax collection and revenue and benefits, are all under threat.

[Kato]

That's your view of the Labour Party in government throughout 1997 to 2011?

Yes. And about 40 years leading up to that as well.

[RyeSloan]

Imagine hundreds losing their jobs, and services being outsourced to a private company who are already experiencing difficulties financially. Its not just binmen who are affected, catering, cleaning, building maintenance, council tax collection and revenue and benefits, are all under threat.

And there is the crux. Should your local council main priority be:

A) Creating jobs and maintaining it's workforce B) Facilitiating services at the best value for the tax payer.

It has clearly not been able to do both at the same time so which should it be?

If it's A) what is the justification for subsidising a sector of the city's workforce via contracts of employment and working practices that would not be matched in the private sector with a tax on all residents?

[sKipper]

Every time I see the SNP Ministers I'm reminded of that very unfortunate image from 1978 of people like Rioch etc hanging out of the sides of a car
.

Every time I see shadow Labour ministers I am reminded how lucky we are having them out of power for a generation. :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Yes. And about 40 years leading up to that as well.

Why's that then?

[One Day Soon]

Every time I see shadow Labour ministers I am reminded how lucky we are having them out of power for a generation. :greengrin

That's the spirit.

[Geo_1875]

Every time I see Labour Shadow Ministers I'm reminded of Conservative Ministers. They're all a bunch of upper middle class self-serving opportunists.

[One Day Soon]

Every time I see Labour Shadow Ministers I'm reminded of Conservative Ministers. They're all a bunch of upper middle class self-serving opportunists.

Except that they're not. But apart from that you're quite right.

[lucky]

See wee ecks been caught lying to parliament over the referendum question. Tried to claim a professor, who is a specialist on election matters was in favour of a 3 option question but he was dead against it.
Not like him to let the small mater of truth get in the way of his spin.

By the time he gets round to calling it he will have caught out lying much it will be a formality that it will be rejected.

[sKipper]

See wee ecks been caught lying to parliament over the referendum question. Tried to claim a professor, who is a specialist on election matters was in favour of a 3 option question but he was dead against it.
Not like him to let the small mater of truth get in the way of his spin.

By the time he gets round to calling it he will have caught out lying much it will be a formality that it will be rejected.


LOL Dream on. If that's the best ammunition you have against Salmond I think you'll struggle :agree:

A professor doesn't agree with a 3 question referendum. FFS ! :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

LOL Dream on. If that's the best ammunition you have against Salmond I think you'll struggle :agree:

A professor doesn't agree with a 3 question referendum. FFS ! :rolleyes:

I think you missed the point there. The First Minister mislead Parliament for which he was forced to apologise. That's pretty humiliating for a man who (probably quite rightly) would consider himself one of the smartest polical operators around.

[One Day Soon]

LOL Dream on. If that's the best ammunition you have against Salmond I think you'll struggle :agree:

A professor doesn't agree with a 3 question referendum. FFS ! :rolleyes:

This is what happens when Governments begin the descent down the toilet. It's the little things, then the bigger things and finally you are busted flush politicians just like all the rest. The SNP have been in power for 5 years now. Power corrupts and all that.

Misleading Parliament and misrepresenting a respected academic's opinion on something as fundamental as the fairest way to ask the questions that will decide our country's future is not a small thing.

[sKipper]

This is what happens when Governments begin the descent down the toilet. It's the little things, then the bigger things and finally you are busted flush politicians just like all the rest. The SNP have been in power for 5 years now. Power corrupts and all that.

.

Unfortunately for you there is little evidence if any of power corrupting the SNP government.

In actual fact they seem to be strengthening. Long may it continue.

I would bow to your experience in this matter though as you will have seen many a Labour politician corrupted over the years.

[allmodcons]

This is what happens when Governments begin the descent down the toilet. It's the little things, then the bigger things and finally you are busted flush politicians just like all the rest. The SNP have been in power for 5 years now. Power corrupts and all that.

Misleading Parliament and misrepresenting a respected academic's opinion on something as fundamental as the fairest way to ask the questions that will decide our country's future is not a small thing.

Good to see you still banging the drum ODS! The fact AS actually apologised is refreshing. Made a mistake and held his hand up.

Reminds me of Blair's Westminister Government (not).

[lucky]

Skip
Do you think it is acceptable for the FM to lie to parliament? It's even worse that wee ecks office contacted the academic to try and get him to change his views so that it matched what we eck said.

As for corruption, what about Soutars money. The SNP accepted it and immediately changed policy on bus deregulation. What's the betting that stagecoach get the scotrail rail franchise next time around.

[Jack]

I think there's a huge difference between deliberately misleading parliament and wee ecks 'mistake' which I personally think it was after what I've heard in the media.

[sKipper]

Skip
Do you think it is acceptable for the FM to lie to parliament? It's even worse that wee ecks office contacted the academic to try and get him to change his views so that it matched what we eck said.

As for corruption, what about Soutars money. The SNP accepted it and immediately changed policy on bus deregulation. What's the betting that stagecoach get the scotrail rail franchise next time around.

It is never acceptable to lie in Parliament. Full stop.

In this instance though I believe it was a misunderstanding and at least we got a quick apology.

Still awaiting Johann Lamonts apology for the fake rape case she raised recently.

[lucky]

It is never acceptable to lie in Parliament. Full stop.

In this instance though I believe it was a misunderstanding and at least we got a quick apology.

Still awaiting Johann Lamonts apology for the fake rape case she raised recently.

So when SNP lie its a mistake. he did apologise but only after the academic refused to back down. Cant comment on what Johann Lamont said as I never picked it up. Are you one of these CyberNats and Bedsit bloggers than Ian Gray mentioned yesterday?

[sKipper]

So when SNP lie its a mistake. he did apologise but only after the academic refused to back down. Cant comment on what Johann Lamont said as I never picked it up. Are you one of these CyberNats and Bedsit bloggers than Ian Gray mentioned yesterday?

If you mean someone who will pick up on the never ending hypocrisy, negativity and bitterness from Labour then yes.:agree:

[marinello59]

If you mean someone who will pick up on the never ending hypocrisy, negativity and bitterness from Labour then yes.:agree:

If you think the SNP are any different from Labour in that respect then you are wearing blinkers. I voted SNP because they were the best of a bad bunch but they are as bad as the rest and in some ways worse. The online smear campaigns waged by SNP aides match the nastiness of anything Labour or even those cuddly LibDems get up to. Let's not forget Salmond was happy to draw wages from Westminster and Holyrood whilst also claiming a hefty food allowance..........politicians are all the bleeding same.

[sKipper]

If you think the SNP are any different from Labour in that respect then you are wearing blinkers. I voted SNP because they were the best of a bad bunch but they are as bad as the rest and in some ways worse. The online smear campaigns waged by SNP aides match the nastiness of anything Labour or even those cuddly LibDems get up to. Let's not forget Salmond was happy to draw wages from Westminster and Holyrood whilst also claiming a hefty food allowance..........politicians are all the bleeding same.

Absolute rubbish !

[marinello59]

Absolute rubbish !
It is all about opinion. Care to expand?

[greenlex]

It is all about opinion. Care to expand?

a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e. R-u-b-b-i-s-h. :greengrin

[marinello59]

a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e. R-u-b-b-i-s-h. :greengrin

:greengrin

[Hainan Hibs]

a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e. R-u-b-b-i-s-h. :greengrin
:faf: