About time

[Gatecrasher]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15116064

no one drives at 70 anyway so its just common sense imo, I hope Scotland follow ....

[McSwanky]

no one drives at 70 anyway Oh yes they do!

[Gatecrasher]

Oh yes they do!

ok a lot of people dont :greengrin


The Department for Transport says as many as 49% of drivers flout the current 70mph limit.

[ballengeich]

I'd predict that the people who now go at 80 while the limit is 70 will do 90 if it's raised to 80. Motorways will become a bit more dangerous and the increased speeds are likely to be carried on to other main roads where accidents are more common anyway.

[steakbake]

The woman on question time last night thought it was a Conservative ploy to put one over on the ordinary working man, making motorways a preserve of the business minded and the rich. An interesting take on it.

[Gatecrasher]

I'd predict that the people who now go at 80 while the limit is 70 will do 90 if it's raised to 80. Motorways will become a bit more dangerous and the increased speeds are likely to be carried on to other main roads where accidents are more common anyway.
I diagree, 80MPH is quite a comfertable speed in a regular car these days, when heading up to 90+ MPH you can start to feel the difference in the car. Obviously you will get the usual excessive idiot, but those people are around anyway. I cant see how it would affect the speed people driving on non motorway roads?

The woman on question time last night thought it was a Conservative ploy to put one over on the ordinary working man, making motorways a preserve of the business minded and the rich. An interesting take on it.
Sorry but that sounds bizzare to me, How can that be? if you want to drive at 70 there would be nothing stopping you, just as some poeple drive at 60 at the moment. A lot of lorry's and vans are actually restricted to 60 to ensure they save fuel and dont break the HGV limit.

Just because 80 MPH would be the speed limit, it doesnt make it a target speed for everyone to reach, Driving conditions and common sense would still apply just as it is with 70 MPH at the moment.

[Hibby D]

What about the environment? Or mpg? Shouldn't we really be thinking of reducing it to 60 or even 55?

I think Bob Llewellyn makes the points better than me :agree:

http://llewblog.squarespace.com/

[Scouse Hibee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15116064

no one drives at 70 anyway so its just common sense imo, I hope Scotland follow ....


So if people continue to flout a law the answer is to change that law to accomodate them? How you call that common sense it totally beyond me!

[RyeSloan]

What about the environment? Or mpg? Shouldn't we really be thinking of reducing it to 60 or even 55?

I think Bob Llewellyn makes the points better than me :agree:

http://llewblog.squarespace.com/


How much extra damage to the environment would it really cause? How much of enviromental pollution is added by cars on the motorway? How much does UK Motorway driving contribute to overall pollution?

All things are relative and I think in this case the enviromental argument will be trotted out without any real consideration as to the relative nature of the impact it will have.

And it's fine for Bob who's had all his fun in his R32 to then state he believes less than 40mpg should be some sort of offence now that he drives a prius...personally I feel quite sorry for him, now watching his mpg figures in his prius rather than driving a real car :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

So if people continue to flout a law the answer is to change that law to accomodate them? How you call that common sense it totally beyond me!

Or maybe it's about taking a common sense view. If the law is no longer relevant then why shouldn't it be changed? Just because 'it;s the law' doesn;t mean it should never be looked at in view of how enforceable it is, how relevant it is and what purpose it is actually serving.

[Scouse Hibee]

Or maybe it's about taking a common sense view. If the law is no longer relevant then why shouldn't it be changed? Just because 'it;s the law' doesn;t mean it should never be looked at in view of how enforceable it is, how relevant it is and what purpose it is actually serving.

How does increasing the speed limit to 80mph make it more enforceable tham 70mph?

The "default" speed will probably become 90mph as people become comfortable with sitting just 10mph over the limit on the motorway as they do now at 80mph.


As for the relevance and purpose of controlling speed have a look at accident statistics, life is the most precious commodity of all!

[Peevemor]

What about increasing the speed limit as well as the punishment for those that break it? :dunno:

[RyeSloan]

How does increasing the speed limit to 80mph make it more enforceable tham 70mph?

The "default" speed will probably become 90mph as people become comfortable with sitting just 10mph over the limit on the motorway as they do now at 80mph.


As for the relevance and purpose of controlling speed have a look at accident statistics, life is the most precious commodity of all!

I was talking generally but specifically in this case just how many lives is the 70 limit saving? Most deaths on the road are not on motorways so maybe the 70 limit is rather irrelevant and in quiet times when the road is clear what is it's purpose?

Not saying I have the answers but the knee jerk reaction of 'it's the law' so it shouldn't be questioned is not the answer either.

[khib70]

So if people continue to flout a law the answer is to change that law to accomodate them? How you call that common sense it totally beyond me!
Loads of morons still txt while driving-let's just make it legal eh?

[Andy74]

Good luck reaching it on most mototways. The M8 in the morning is jammed with people driving at 50 or 60 mph just because there's a fair bit of traffic on the road. If everyone just got on with it we'd all move a bit more freely.

Making it worse is those that then try and take over the ones sitting crawling along and don't realise they may need to speed up to overtake.

Then you get those that start to crawl anywhere within two miles of the next junction!

Making a minimum speed limit which was enforcable and shifted folk along would work far better!

[(((Fergus)))]

To solve the problem of congestion we either reduce the volume, widen the pipe or increase the flow rate. Labour tried the first and we are at the limit on that lever now, we can't afford to do the second, so that only leaves the third.

[RyeSloan]

To solve the problem of congestion we either reduce the volume, widen the pipe or increase the flow rate. Labour tried the first and we are at the limit on that lever now, we can't afford to do the second, so that only leaves the third.

Well we could quite easily widen the pipe, it would of course involve directly charging the people using the road to use the road (revolutionary I know!) but since the SNP have decided we shouldn't even charge tolls for people to use a bridge and will therefore take a huge lump out of the available capital expenditure to build an under spec RFC (probably over budget and late) I suppose you are right!

[Jones28]

This could be more dangerous than people think.

Speeds will be increased, making it more dangerous anyway, but how many times have you come across people driving at 45-50 MPH when you're doing 70? Happens to me frequently, having to break sharply etc, so how much more dangerous will it be when the speed difference is a good 30, even 40 MPH?

As well as increasing the maximum limit, there needs to be a minimum on A roads and motorways IMHO. A minimum 55 MPH.

[Scouse Hibee]

This could be more dangerous than people think.

Speeds will be increased, making it more dangerous anyway, but how many times have you come across people driving at 45-50 MPH when you're doing 70? Happens to me frequently, having to break sharply etc, so how much more dangerous will it be when the speed difference is a good 30, even 40 MPH?

As well as increasing the maximum limit, there needs to be a minimum on A roads and motorways IMHO. A minimum 55 MPH.


Can't see this being a factor to be honest, if you do a lot of motorway driving as I do, and you as you say frequently have to brake sharply, it suggests to me your overall standard of driving must be poor! Yes there are occasions but if it's a regular occurence for you then you have to look at how you drive. Maybe you're inexperienced :dunno:...................... Just noticed your age, you are an inexperienced driver if your age is correctly posted.

[Jones28]

Can't see this being a factor to be honest, if you do a lot of motorway driving as I do, and you as you say frequently have to brake sharply, it suggests to me your overall standard of driving must be poor! Yes there are occasions but if it's a regular occurence for you then you have to look at how you drive. Maybe you're inexperienced :dunno:...................... Just noticed your age, you are an inexperienced driver if your age is correctly posted.

In all honesty I don't see myself as a poor driver! Not gods gift, but in comparison with a lot of drivers my age I think I am sensible and fairly competent. When I say frequently, it's not as often as it comes across, but when I take the amount of motorway driving I do into account then it seems to me to be once in every 3-4 60 mile round trips.

The point is that if the upper limit is heightened then there must be a lower limit too, as there are people on the motorways that will do HALF the speed limit. 40mph is a massive difference in speed and on a motorway it's not always easy to judge the speed others are going at when you yourself are doing such high speeds. All it takes is a small lapse in concentration (which we all have when driving) at these speeds and before you know it you could be plowing into the back of someone.

But I promise that, as you are motorway King, I will be more careful :not worth:greengrin:wink:

[heretoday]

I came up the M6 recently from Stoke and was amazed at the speed and poor standards of driving on display. Sheer madness. BMWs and Mercs tailgating in the fast lane at 85 MPH and more. All blokes presumably under work pressure of some kind.

I agree it's pointless expecting them to drive within a limit as they have no intention of complying and police are nowhere to be seen anyway. However, the change in law implies, in my opinion, a sort of approval of that insane behaviour. It's the Tories saying: "Okay chaps. Get the foot down and good luck to everybody else."

How will things ever improve?

[Barney McGrew]

The sensible thing to do would be to introduce variable speed limits on all motorways, similar to the ones they have on the M6 around Birmingham. That way they can reduce it down during busy peak times to try and reduce the stop start someone mentioned above, and then up to 80mph on stretches of road like the 3 lane M74 which is never that busy at any time and doesn't need the 70mph limit any more.

If there's any coppers on here, maybe they can confirm that they rarely prosecute people who are going under 80mph on a motorway these days anyway :confused:

[Jones28]

I came up the M6 recently from Stoke and was amazed at the speed and poor standards of driving on display. Sheer madness. BMWs and Mercs tailgating in the fast lane at 85 MPH and more. All blokes presumably under work pressure of some kind.

I agree it's pointless expecting them to drive within a limit as they have no intention of complying and police are nowhere to be seen anyway. However, the change in law implies, in my opinion, a sort of approval of that insane behaviour. It's the Tories saying: "Okay chaps. Get the foot down and good luck to everybody else."

How will things ever improve?

I wonder if a system of the three lanes being varied speeds would work? Ie, outside 60mph, middle 70mph and outside 80mph?

[jonty]

Stop HGVs from overtaking on two lane motorways/dual carriageways. Or keep them off the roads during specified hours (along with caravans, tractors etc) :greengrin

[McHibby]

Stop HGVs from overtaking on two lane motorways/dual carriageways. Or keep them off the roads during specified hours (along with caravans, tractors etc) :greengrin Yes! Or at the very least stop HGV's overtaking at certain times of the day ie peak usage. I also think it seems a bit bizarre to alter a law just because lots of people don't observe it. I was thinking this as I listened to the tory dude on question time. I'm just finishing my law degree and I think my criminal law lecturer would have skelped me up and down the class if I'd suggested amending a law cos lots of people ignore it anyway.

[Andy74]

Stop HGVs from overtaking on two lane motorways/dual carriageways. Or keep them off the roads during specified hours (along with caravans, tractors etc) :greengrin

Yep, big lorry on the M8 this morning, took about a mile to overtake an another lorry, then less than ahlf a mile later it turns off at the next junction. what's the point? right at a point where all the other vehilces are trying to get themselves sorted into the lane for the junction.

It's not quick driving that's the issue, it's slow driving at inappropriate times.

I loved driving in France. If you wanted to be in the outside lane you had better shift it, otherwise get back in. Too much acceptance of being in the wrong lane at the wrong speeds here.

[JimBHibees]

Yep, big lorry on the M8 this morning, took about a mile to overtake an another lorry, then less than ahlf a mile later it turns off at the next junction. what's the point? right at a point where all the other vehilces are trying to get themselves sorted into the lane for the junction.

It's not quick driving that's the issue, it's slow driving at inappropriate times.

I loved driving in France. If you wanted to be in the outside lane you had better shift it, otherwise get back in. Too much acceptance of being in the wrong lane at the wrong speeds here.

Agree M8 is awful the number of drivers that sit in the outside lane and dont move back even though inside lane is pretty empty. In saying that for the main motorway between Edinburgh and Glasgow to be in the main 2 lane is a joke in itself. Similar to yourself I was behind 2 lorries side by side for about 10 miles a few months back what a laugh.

[IndieHibby]

Yes! Or at the very least stop HGV's overtaking at certain times of the day ie peak usage. I also think it seems a bit bizarre to alter a law just because lots of people don't observe it. I was thinking this as I listened to the tory dude on question time. I'm just finishing my law degree and I think my criminal law lecturer would have skelped me up and down the class if I'd suggested amending a law cos lots of people ignore it anyway.

As I understand it, that it not the reason for changing the law. Reduced journey times, improvements in car safety and performance since the time of the original limit being set are the reasons.

The fact that many people ignore it is neither here nor there and was falsely, imo, raised as a reason. Probably to discredit the Tories, IMO.

The poster was betraying their bias. IMO :wink:

[greenlex]

This could be more dangerous than people think.

Speeds will be increased, making it more dangerous anyway, but how many times have you come across people driving at 45-50 MPH when you're doing 70? Happens to me frequently, having to break sharply etc, so how much more dangerous will it be when the speed difference is a good 30, even 40 MPH?

As well as increasing the maximum limit, there needs to be a minimum on A roads and motorways IMHO. A minimum 55 MPH.

If you are having to break sharply to avoid someone going at 50 mph then aren't paying attention to the roadahead IMO

[Jones28]

If you are having to break sharply to avoid someone going at 50 mph then aren't paying attention to the roadahead IMO

Fair enough, your opinion.

[Twa Cairpets]

Peak speed on a journey has a smaller effect than most people think on jouney time, and while speed limits are regularly abused, I think it is inappropriate driving that slows people down and causes more accidents on motorways.

I used to commute daily to Lockerbie - a round trip of 150 miles across country and 160 miles via the motorways. We were put on a driving course and the instructor suggested trying one day driving as fast as you can home, and the next day sticking rigidly to the speed limit. The time difference? 4 minutes over a 1hour 20min drive each way.

Consider the M8, Newbridge to Bailiston - its 31 miles. Driving at 80 all the way on a completely clear road (i.e. not stopping or slowing would take 5 mins less compared to driving at 70mph all the way) How often can you drive at a higher speed for that distance? hardly at all.

Driving faster is largely pointless when theres lots of traffic.

Like a few who are on this thread I'm sure, you see the tools who weave in and out, undertaking, driving aggresively and doing everything they can to get down that road faster faster faster just to glide oast them when they get into the lane to turn off at a junction 10 minutes later because there is other traffic in the lane waiting to turn too. Plums, the lot of them.

[ballengeich]

As well as increasing the maximum limit, there needs to be a minimum on A roads and motorways IMHO. A minimum 55 MPH.

Good idea - let's start with the A902 (Ferry Road), the A8 through Corstorphine and the A701/702 (Lothian Road). A 55 minimum on all of these will sort out the real drivers.

Once we've got the city moving we can go out into the countryside. The A1, A7 and A198 are clogged up by East Lothian and Borders farmers trying to shift their produce to market and lorries trying to move goods to the shops for people who live in these areas. Let's get these wasters out of the way so that boy racers and travelling salesmen can get to their destinations a few minutes sooner.

[matty_f]

Yep, big lorry on the M8 this morning, took about a mile to overtake an another lorry, then less than ahlf a mile later it turns off at the next junction. what's the point? right at a point where all the other vehilces are trying to get themselves sorted into the lane for the junction.

It's not quick driving that's the issue, it's slow driving at inappropriate times.

I loved driving in France. If you wanted to be in the outside lane you had better shift it, otherwise get back in. Too much acceptance of being in the wrong lane at the wrong speeds here.

The French roads are amazing - lorries stay in one lane, you move out to overtake and then move back in. Everyone else does exactly the same thing and the motorways work like a dream.

The example you give about the lorry overtaking and causing issues is bang on, they should be restricted to one lane IMHO.

[frazeHFC]

If you are having to break sharply to avoid someone going at 50 mph then aren't paying attention to the roadahead IMO

My thoughts too. I am only a learner but even i will unoticingly go over 70mph and my parents do anyway. I think 80mph is right for motorways as it is only poor awareness that will cause crashes, not an extra 10mph on this type of road.

[Jack]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the quality of road surfaces has improved considerably (and my that I mean the traction / stickiness of the roads rather than the dugupability of most of Edinburgh's roads) since the 70 mph speed limit was introduced.

Also the cars breaking and steering systems have become considerably more efficient over that time – add the new anti-crash systems currently being introduced by BMW, Volvo, Merc etc.. And that’s not to mention that when it does go wrong now the cars are designed around statutory seat belt wearing; crumple zones and air bags that mean once a cert to be a fatal accident is one where the drivers and passengers are more likely to walk away with minor cuts and bruises.

80 mph isn't enough but I’d draw the line at a ton :greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the fact that the quality of road surfaces has improved considerably (and my that I mean the traction / stickiness of the roads rather than the dugupability of most of Edinburgh's roads) since the 70 mph speed limit was introduced.

Also the cars breaking and steering systems have become considerably more efficient over that time – add the new anti-crash systems currently being introduced by BMW, Volvo, Merc etc.. And that’s not to mention that when it does go wrong now the cars are designed around statutory seat belt wearing; crumple zones and air bags that mean once a cert to be a fatal accident is one where the drivers and passengers are more likely to walk away with minor cuts and bruises.

80 mph isn't enough but I’d draw the line at a ton :greengrin

Yes the improvements you mention maybe relevant.You have to offset them against the huge increase in the volume of traffic and more to the point, the increase in young inexperienced drivers who think it's okay to drive like friggin lunatics!

[Sergio sledge]

It would be interesting to see what the difference in accident statistics are between our motorways and the unrestricted autobahns in Germany. I'm not sure that a 10mph increase in speed will make much difference to the accident statistics on the motorways.

As an aside, where is the outside lane on a motorway? I was giving someone directions recently and told them to go into the outside lane for the roundabout at the end of the motorway and they ended up getting lost. It turns out they thought that the outside lane was the one next to the hard shoulder where I had always assumed it was the one next to the central reservation.

[Twa Cairpets]

It would be interesting to see what the difference in accident statistics are between our motorways and the unrestricted autobahns in Germany. I'm not sure that a 10mph increase in speed will make much difference to the accident statistics on the motorways.

As an aside, where is the outside lane on a motorway? I was giving someone directions recently and told them to go into the outside lane for the roundabout at the end of the motorway and they ended up getting lost. It turns out they thought that the outside lane was the one next to the hard shoulder where I had always assumed it was the one next to the central reservation.

You're right. You move out to overtake, and in to the hard shoulder.

[bighairyfaeleith]

It's widely accepted that if you are doing under 80 the police won't bother you, so I generally sit just under 80 on cruise control. If the limit changes to people will then sit just under 90 so they can get there that bit quicker.

Not going to stop people braking the law, it's also not going to make the country hundreds of millions in revenue as fuel costs will go up and also we will have to fund the stupid bloody consultation into the making it law.

It's a blatant piss poor attempt to win votes.

[One Day Soon]

It's widely accepted that if you are doing under 80 the police won't bother you, so I generally sit just under 80 on cruise control. If the limit changes to people will then sit just under 90 so they can get there that bit quicker.

Not going to stop people braking the law, it's also not going to make the country hundreds of millions in revenue as fuel costs will go up and also we will have to fund the stupid bloody consultation into the making it law.

It's a blatant piss poor attempt to win votes.


Aye, the next thing you know some eejits will want to run an expensive four year campaign for constitutional change on taxpayers money called the 'National Conversation'. Oh, wait a minute...

Anyway Gerry manages with no speed limits and aside from the propensity to start the odd world war it doesn't seem to give them any unmanageable problems.

[ballengeich]

Anyway Gerry manages with no speed limits and aside from the propensity to start the odd world war it doesn't seem to give them any unmanageable problems.

http://www.transportsfriend.org/road-safety/2010/july-road-deaths.html

Not unmanageable, but a death rate of around 185% of ours with a population of 125% of ours in 2009.

[greenlex]

Aye, the next thing you know some eejits will want to run an expensive four year campaign for constitutional change on taxpayers money called the 'National Conversation'. Oh, wait a minute...Anyway Gerry manages with no speed limits and aside from the propensity to start the odd world war it doesn't seem to give them any unmanageable problems.The only real problem encountered over there was trying not tospill a drink in the back of the big Merc taxi as it weaved its way from Dusseldorf to Gelsenkertchen . Sliding around theleather seats on the back trying my hardest not to spill any whilst pissed is some feat.

[PeeJay]

Anyway Gerry manages with no speed limits and aside from the propensity to start the odd world war it doesn't seem to give them any unmanageable problems.

Germany's autobahns are not all without a speed limit - approx. one half is subject to a so-called recommended speed limit (Richtgeschwindigkeit = 130km/h) - this is not mandatory BUT if you are involved in an accident you may be held partially liable if your speed was in excess of the recommended speed.
Roughly 1/3 of all autobahns have a permanent & mandatory speed limit...

As to unmanageable problems - you've obviously never sat in one of the frequent traffic jams we have here on the autobahns?

...your reference to the odd world war BTW is insulting and it doesn't help the point you are making - this is 2011!

[Hibbyradge]

So if people continue to flout a law the answer is to change that law to accomodate them? How you call that common sense it totally beyond me!

What's your position on the legalisation of cannabis?

[One Day Soon]

Germany's autobahns are not all without a speed limit - approx. one half is subject to a so-called recommended speed limit (Richtgeschwindigkeit = 130km/h) - this is not mandatory BUT if you are involved in an accident you may be held partially liable if your speed was in excess of the recommended speed.
Roughly 1/3 of all autobahns have a permanent & mandatory speed limit...

As to unmanageable problems - you've obviously never sat in one of the frequent traffic jams we have here on the autobahns?

...your reference to the odd world war BTW is insulting and it doesn't help the point you are making - this is 2011!

Interesting on the speed stuff but its not as though we don't have traffic jams here.

Did they not start two world wars?

[Hibbyradge]

About time?

This applies to England and Wales.

So, after hours of sitting at 35mph on the Scottish roads heading south, when we finally hit the A1M or the M6, we can go as fast as we always did.

Woopy doo!

I can't wait for independence.

[Scouse Hibee]

What's your position on the legalisation of cannabis?

If you're caught smoking it whilst driving over 70mph on a motorway, you should be banned, jailed, car confiscated and given 20 lashes!

My position is exactly the same!

[Hibbyradge]

If you're caught smoking it whilst driving over 70mph on a motorway, you should be banned, jailed, car confiscated and given 20 lashes!

My position is exactly the same!

My apologies then.

I thought I'd read a post of yours in the past whch inferred that you supported the legalisation of cannabis on the basis that a) in your opnion its harmless and b) loads of folk smoke it.

I just thought the similarity between those arguments and the ones you refute in the speed limit debate should be pointed out. :wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

My apologies then.

I thought I'd read a post of yours in the past whch inferred that you supported the legalisation of cannabis on the basis that a) in your opnion its harmless and b) loads of folk smoke it.

I just thought the similarity between those arguments and the ones you refute in the speed limit debate should be pointed out. :wink:
:greengrin
Ah I see, I wondered what you were getting at :greengrin No it certainly wasn't me.

[joe breezy]

I don't drive much but when I did I would sometimes go about 80 on motorways.

Not sure what I think of the law, if more Germans die on the roads then that probably speaks for itself.

Plus I'm sure that twat Jeremy Clarkson would support it, so on that alone I should be against it.

[(((Fergus)))]

I don't drive much but when I did I would sometimes go about 80 on motorways.

Not sure what I think of the law, if more Germans die on the roads then that probably speaks for itself.

Plus I'm sure that twat Jeremy Clarkson would support it, so on that alone I should be against it.

It depends why more Germans die on the roads. Those deaths may not be on the unrestricted sections of motorway. Differences in weather conditions could be a factor