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PaulSmith
28-09-2011, 01:46 PM
Ignore the fact that you may have views on Rangers fans:

On September 27th 2011, The Union Bears and The Blue Order held a protest at Ibrox Stadium in the opening ten minutes of the match against against Kilmarnock. The protest consisted of anti-SNP chanting and the unfurling of 3 banners namely;

"Undefinable Laws Against Supporters"
"SNP Weak On Criminals - Tough on Fans"
"Football Fans Not Criminals"

The protest was not challenged by the police and passed peacefully, with other sections of the Rangers support showing unity with the message of the protest.

For clarity, there are several reasons why we feel we must make a stand upon this issue. We are protesting against the implementation on the 'Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill' as proposed by the current SNP government. This bill discriminates against football fans, singling out a demographic of the population for specific laws. The implementation of the bill means that almost any football supporter, whether you be vocal in support of your team or not, could be subject to arrest, without significant police evidence of any actual offence caused.

The criminalisation of football supporters threatens the game which we all love. Supporters attending a football match will now be met with fear of arrest, losing your job and being named in newspapers despite having not had your court case heard.

The Union Bears and The Blue Order would like to make it clear we are against Sectarianism and Racism in all forms. We feel current legislation covers offences of these matters and further legislation is not necessary nor required. We feel this action is being used for political gain, and being supported by police officers in order to preserve their level of responsibility and therefore preserve their level of funding in what is economically challenging times.

We have all seen that our supporters are subject to unnecessary harassment from police officers and we have and will continue to work with the Rangers Supporters working group on resolving these matters.

In a completely separate incident tonight, around 100 supporters in the BF1 section walked out in protest at the heavy handed stewarding and policing which took place within the section at the match. The groups have issued a complaint to the police and the club and this will be dealt with in due course. We would like to thank the rest of the Rangers support for the support shown towards the group regarding this matter.

Astonishingly the whole reason for the stewards getting involved was due to a young supporter in the section having a water bottle in the ground. One which he had cleared with another steward before entering and was told it wouldn't be a problem.

Among the incidents was also the situation where mounted Police outside the stadium charged at young supporters including one who was disabled. He was told by the mounted officers to run.

We will be taking further protest action in forthcoming matches, and would urge you all to stand with us as we fight the injustice against the supporters of Rangers Football Club. We will issue another statement prior to the game on Saturday, which will detail how we wish to have your support.

Supporting Your Team Is not a Crime.

JimBHibees
28-09-2011, 01:59 PM
Ignore the fact that you may have views on Rangers fans:

On September 27th 2011, The Union Bears and The Blue Order held a protest at Ibrox Stadium in the opening ten minutes of the match against against Kilmarnock. The protest consisted of anti-SNP chanting and the unfurling of 3 banners namely;

"Undefinable Laws Against Supporters"
"SNP Weak On Criminals - Tough on Fans"
"Football Fans Not Criminals"

The protest was not challenged by the police and passed peacefully, with other sections of the Rangers support showing unity with the message of the protest.

For clarity, there are several reasons why we feel we must make a stand upon this issue. We are protesting against the implementation on the 'Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill' as proposed by the current SNP government. This bill discriminates against football fans, singling out a demographic of the population for specific laws. The implementation of the bill means that almost any football supporter, whether you be vocal in support of your team or not, could be subject to arrest, without significant police evidence of any actual offence caused.

The criminalisation of football supporters threatens the game which we all love. Supporters attending a football match will now be met with fear of arrest, losing your job and being named in newspapers despite having not had your court case heard.

The Union Bears and The Blue Order would like to make it clear we are against Sectarianism and Racism in all forms. We feel current legislation covers offences of these matters and further legislation is not necessary nor required. We feel this action is being used for political gain, and being supported by police officers in order to preserve their level of responsibility and therefore preserve their level of funding in what is economically challenging times.

We have all seen that our supporters are subject to unnecessary harassment from police officers and we have and will continue to work with the Rangers Supporters working group on resolving these matters.

In a completely separate incident tonight, around 100 supporters in the BF1 section walked out in protest at the heavy handed stewarding and policing which took place within the section at the match. The groups have issued a complaint to the police and the club and this will be dealt with in due course. We would like to thank the rest of the Rangers support for the support shown towards the group regarding this matter.

Astonishingly the whole reason for the stewards getting involved was due to a young supporter in the section having a water bottle in the ground. One which he had cleared with another steward before entering and was told it wouldn't be a problem.

Among the incidents was also the situation where mounted Police outside the stadium charged at young supporters including one who was disabled. He was told by the mounted officers to run.

We will be taking further protest action in forthcoming matches, and would urge you all to stand with us as we fight the injustice against the supporters of Rangers Football Club. We will issue another statement prior to the game on Saturday, which will detail how we wish to have your support.

Supporting Your Team Is not a Crime.

Jeezo get over yourself, what a crock that is. The line in bold is just completely made up scaremongering.

Here's a new one. Support your team as loud as you want however maybe concentrate a little more limiting your song choices to football songs, not sectarian or songs about Irish politics which 90 odd per cent of Scots could care less about.

Jack
28-09-2011, 02:00 PM
Its very difficult to sympathise with them. :rolleyes:

bighairyfaeleith
28-09-2011, 02:07 PM
Its very difficult to sympathise with them. :rolleyes:

I'm not even going to try!!

Hibernia Na Eir
28-09-2011, 02:07 PM
If it wanst for RFC/CFC we wouldnt be having ANY of these discussions :agree:

Backto my roots
28-09-2011, 02:18 PM
I'm sure the Police would have a different opinion on those so called 'innocent' young supporters. Let's get real here, for decades rangers have been allowed to march about saying/singing whatever they like (particularly about Catholics) and are now shocked that their so called 'traditions' are now illegal It's long over due a political party in Scotland has had the balls to stand up to them (and anybody no matter which side) to try and get rid of what is Scotland’s Shame. There maybe some mistakes by the Police trying to tackle it but it would so easy to say it's too hard and hope it goes away but we all know it won't. Rangers have the biggest problem so it should start with them!

cabbageandribs1875
28-09-2011, 02:59 PM
Supporting Your Team Is not a Crime.


i noticed you missed out the 'no surrender' on this e-mail :agree: have to admit whilst reading the e-mail i was starting to feel sorry for the poor paranoid tramps(well...not that sorry), then noticing the 'no surrender' sign-off i then realised just why i f****n detest the bigoted sectarian b******s

:greengrin


Supporting Your Team Is not a Crime.

No Surrender
The Union Bears and The Blue Order

LancashireHibby
28-09-2011, 03:00 PM
i noticed you missed out the 'no surrender' on this e-mail :agree: have to admit whilst reading the e-mail i was starting to feel sorry for the poor paranoid tramps(well...not that sorry), then noticing the 'no surrender' sign-off i then realised just why i f****n detest the bigoted sectarian b******s

:greengrin


Supporting Your Team Is not a Crime.

No Surrender
The Union Bears and The Blue Order

:thumbsup: Nice spot. I did cringe at the 'Union Bears' name.

Cabbage East
28-09-2011, 03:00 PM
What a load of utter pish.

easty
28-09-2011, 03:13 PM
Garbage.


The criminalisation of football supporters threatens the game which we all love. Supporters attending a football match will now be met with fear of arrest, losing your job and being named in newspapers despite having not had your court case heard.


I can safely say I won't be fearing arrest, losing my job or being named in a newspaper. Why? Because I don't go to football to make an arse of myself and sing the crap that they're trying to get rid of with part of these 'undefineble laws'.

Maybe The Union Bears could start a campaign called 'Don't Be A Tw@t At The Football'. At least that'd be productive.

lucky
28-09-2011, 03:20 PM
I'm sure the Police would have a different opinion on those so called 'innocent' young supporters. Let's get real here, for decades rangers have been allowed to march about saying/singing whatever they like (particularly about Catholics) and are now shocked that their so called 'traditions' are now illegal It's long over due a political party in Scotland has had the balls to stand up to them (and anybody no matter which side) to try and get rid of what is Scotland’s Shame. There maybe some mistakes by the Police trying to tackle it but it would so easy to say it's too hard and hope it goes away but we all know it won't. Rangers have the biggest problem so it should start with them!

under the law being proposed by the anti football government you post calling them huns and bigots could be questionable. 10 Hibs fans arrested to today for breech and fighting at games have had the added bit of religious/sectarian behaviour added. The proposals are piss poor and designed to catch headlines not criminals.

Barney McGrew
28-09-2011, 03:27 PM
under the law being proposed by the anti football government you post calling them huns and bigots could be questionable. 10 Hibs fans arrested to today for breech and fighting at games have had the added bit of religious/sectarian behaviour added. The proposals are piss poor and designed to catch headlines not criminals.

:agree:

The term 'hun' has been defined as being sectarian, so using it to describe a Rangers fan is indeed a breach of the new law.

While most will have little sympathy for the Rangers support, in a way I kind of agree with them. There were perfectly acceptable laws already in place, it's just that the police and governing bodies chose not to enforce them.

Gatecrasher
28-09-2011, 03:30 PM
Fair Play to them for standing up for something they believe in. Whether other fans agree with it or not.

ancient hibee
28-09-2011, 03:49 PM
There are two responses on here which would be indictable offences.

PaulSmith
28-09-2011, 04:04 PM
There are two responses on here which would be indictable offences.

I think that was my point, I read stuff on here that is no doubt monitored...(hello to the PC from the 'Sectarian Team' who will no doubt read it)...and you can bet your bottom dollar that it will only be a matter of time before one of main posters on here is arrested at dawn with the accompanying press core, identified as being a bigot/racist without any right to reply until the court case.

To think that only OF fans will be monitored is wrong, to think that its not political IMO is wrong and I do believe that football fans are an easy target and make great headlines but FFS there are a thousand extra things wrong with neighbourhoods the length and breadth of this City (never mind country) that should have a higher priority.


To the previous poster in regards to the 'No Surrender' comment I thought that it would take away the focus of the main just of the message, nothing else.

Sylar
28-09-2011, 04:20 PM
I agree entirely with their stance on the issue in all honesty.

Evidently, from some of the responses on here, the opening "ignore the fact that you may have views on Rangers fans" was evidently ignored, as a large number of them aren't even considering the article which has been issued.

As it is, the article hits the nail firmly on the head for me. This new law is ambiguous and will create even further over-zealous officiating at football matches from stewards and the local authorities.

I've no argument that sectarianism and racism both need stamped out of football, but the Blue Order and RSU are quite correct by pointing out that there are well established laws already out there, which aren't enforced. Perhaps it would be more prudent to investigate why this is the case, rather than attempting to fire through some quick-fire, ambitious bill which is lacking clarity throughout and opens up any potential shout/chant/blog post/email (etc) to legal repercussion.

Most people with half a brain between their ears know what is and isn't acceptable behaviour and I guess, if such knowledge can consistently be translated into behaviour, then there is nothing to fear but can everybody who's ever gone to football consistently hold both hands up and say "I've never shouted/sung/said/typed anything in a footballing context which someone might find derogatory"?

The new bill being planned by the Scottish Government is not a solution to sectarianism and racism at football and is likely to impact on a much wider community of Scottish Football fans, rather than specifically targeting those who regularly engage in such behaviour which is unacceptable.

And to think all of this [summits/Bill proposals] stems from a little case of handbags last year - Christ, can you imagine is such action was taken every time Real Madrid and Barcelona meet, as their sideline skirmishes and antics last season were FAR worse than the cup replay at Celtc park.

Future17
28-09-2011, 04:23 PM
To the previous poster in regards to the 'No Surrender' comment I thought that it would take away the focus of the main just of the message, nothing else.

I understand what you mean, but while the message may be commendable (if a little inaccurate) it's delivered by a person(s) who simply doesn't understand the climate which led to this proposed legislation, and their role in creating it.

Separately, it's not "heavy-handed stewarding" to remove a water bottle from someone inside a football stadium - it's the rules. If they care so much about legislation, maybe they should read that which governs their own ground.

SkintHibby
28-09-2011, 06:24 PM
What REALLY worries me about this is that Rangers supporters make up a fair percentage of the Scottish electorate and for football fans of a single team to have so much power over how Scotland votes is very, very worrying.

England done a good job in Scotland with it's divide and rule policy.

Springbank
28-09-2011, 06:32 PM
These cretins from Govan make me more and more proud of our SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT!!!

It is about time someone stood up to the Blue and Green bigots.

I for one am all for unfurling a banner at Ibrox that reads simply

THERE IS NO PLACE IN 21st CENTURY SCOTLAND FOR BIGOTS

Their 2 clubs are in terminal decline, slower than we'd all like, but terminal decline nonetheless. This is because good people reject their horrible views which perhaps reflect 19th century Scotland, but hardly 21st century Scotland, and certainly not the country I want to bring my wee boy and wee girl up in.

The sooner these Blue Order people are all arrested the better.

Springbank
28-09-2011, 06:39 PM
I agree entirely with their stance on the issue in all honesty.

Evidently, from some of the responses on here, the opening "ignore the fact that you may have views on Rangers fans" was evidently ignored, as a large number of them aren't even considering the article which has been issued.

As it is, the article hits the nail firmly on the head for me. This new law is ambiguous and will create even further over-zealous officiating at football matches from stewards and the local authorities.

I've no argument that sectarianism and racism both need stamped out of football, but the Blue Order and RSU are quite correct by pointing out that there are well established laws already out there, which aren't enforced. Perhaps it would be more prudent to investigate why this is the case, rather than attempting to fire through some quick-fire, ambitious bill which is lacking clarity throughout and opens up any potential shout/chant/blog post/email (etc) to legal repercussion.

Most people with half a brain between their ears know what is and isn't acceptable behaviour and I guess, if such knowledge can consistently be translated into behaviour, then there is nothing to fear but can everybody who's ever gone to football consistently hold both hands up and say "I've never shouted/sung/said/typed anything in a footballing context which someone might find derogatory"?

The new bill being planned by the Scottish Government is not a solution to sectarianism and racism at football and is likely to impact on a much wider community of Scottish Football fans, rather than specifically targeting those who regularly engage in such behaviour which is unacceptable.

And to think all of this [summits/Bill proposals] stems from a little case of handbags last year - Christ, can you imagine is such action was taken every time Real Madrid and Barcelona meet, as their sideline skirmishes and antics last season were FAR worse than the cup replay at Celtc park.

There's the flaw in your argument.

These clubs will die (will die) albeit slowly because they have refused to appeal beyond the lowest common denominator.

They have known at boardroom level for decades that their core demographic is what it is (and I'll leave it at that).

Their fatal flaw was to think that it was easier to go with keeping the LCDs happy, rather than tackle the unpalatable truth of their despicable and destructive views

Thankfully, the number of people who can maintain that sheer bigotry into a 5th and 6th generation since the initial wave of Irish immigration into the Glasgow area is dwindling, and good people like Pat Nevin reject their lacklustre policies that are a sop to say they are wanting to tackle it.

Do these clubs really think the only immigration that ever took place was Irish??? My own family were immigrants to Edinburgh from southern Italy and from the Highlands of Scotland. Settled in the Hibs end of town and we're die-hard Hibees.

It should be about football. In Glasgow it is not. And that is why they are dying out.

Well done the Scottish Govt in this case.

ScottB
28-09-2011, 07:21 PM
Ultimately, if Rangers and Celtics bigoted element stopped their vile chanting, this law would never have been proposed. If they stop I doubt this law would ever be used.

But once again, rather than deal with, or in some cases, even admit they have a problem, they respond as if their way of life is being attacked / it's all a big conspiracy blah blah blah.

I find it incredibly easy to turn up at a football match or debate on the game without using sectarian, racist or whatever else language. If people can't manage that then screw 'em frankly.

Liberal Hibby
28-09-2011, 07:47 PM
These cretins from Govan make me more and more proud of our SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT!!!

It is about time someone stood up to the Blue and Green bigots.

The sooner these Blue Order people are all arrested the better.

Bit like these guys eh? http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?218861-Dawn-raid.-10-Hibs-fans-arrested.&p=2931730&viewfull=1#post2931730

pacorosssco
28-09-2011, 07:48 PM
:agree:

The term 'hun' has been defined as being sectarian, so using it to describe a Rangers fan is indeed a breach of the new law.

While most will have little sympathy for the Rangers support, in a way I kind of agree with them. There were perfectly acceptable laws already in place, it's just that the police and governing bodies chose not to enforce them.

Hunbelievable :confused:

AlbertK86
28-09-2011, 07:57 PM
The guy wasnae arrested for singing anything last night. It was for drinking out a bottle that he shouldn't have had in the stadium. Just so happened when the stewards moved in they were blocked by the rest of the protestors the polis moved in. Real radio phoned them earlier and got this explanation

weonlywon6-2
28-09-2011, 08:55 PM
If it wanst for RFC/CFC we wouldnt be having ANY of these discussions :agree:

:top marks

yeezus.
28-09-2011, 08:57 PM
Something makes me think that Gers fans are just unhappy with a nationalist Government AND the fact that they and Celtic can no longer get off with their sectarian chanting.

Old Firm = Scotland's shame

weonlywon6-2
28-09-2011, 08:57 PM
[ The implementation of the bill means that almost any football supporter, whether you be vocal in support of your team or not, could be subject to arrest, without significant police evidence of any actual offence caused.

what a load of pash.

theyre spitting the dummy out the pram cause they have got away with it for years

Elephant Stone
28-09-2011, 09:35 PM
. This bill discriminates against football fans, singling out a demographic of the population for specific laws.

Oh dear, this bill discriminates against people who want to sing about famine, 300 year old religious wars and terrorism, please take pity on them.

ancient hibee
28-09-2011, 09:42 PM
These cretins from Govan make me more and more proud of our SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT!!!

It is about time someone stood up to the Blue and Green bigots.

I for one am all for unfurling a banner at Ibrox that reads simply

THERE IS NO PLACE IN 21st CENTURY SCOTLAND FOR BIGOTS

Their 2 clubs are in terminal decline, slower than we'd all like, but terminal decline nonetheless. This is because good people reject their horrible views which perhaps reflect 19th century Scotland, but hardly 21st century Scotland, and certainly not the country I want to bring my wee boy and wee girl up in.

The sooner these Blue Order people are all arrested the better.

And which club has just had the greatest number of fans charged with sectarian offences?

1two
28-09-2011, 09:49 PM
Supporters attending a football match will now be met with fear of arrest, losing your job and being named in newspapers despite having not had your court case heard.

No I don't!

ancient hibee
28-09-2011, 09:54 PM
No I don't!

No I don't what?

Sir David Gray
28-09-2011, 10:12 PM
Wholeheartedly agree with their stance, this new law with all the "anti-sectarian initiative" police officers going about at games now is utterly ridiculous.

To think that someone could, in theory, receive a five year prison sentence for calling someone a "hun" or for singing the British national anthem at a football match, beggars belief. Especially when I'm hearing today about a convicted rapist getting his minimum sentence halved to just four and a half years and the worst mass murderer in Scotland's history was released after serving just eight years in prison.

This whole legislation has Alex Salmond and the SNP written all over it. He just wants to appear to be significant and to throw his authority around.

The 'thought police' are well and truly out in force nowadays and I personally find that very worrying.

Whatever happened to the freedom of speech?

1two
29-09-2011, 06:31 AM
No I don't what?

What I meant was, I don't go along to Easter road worrying that I might get arrested.

Geo_1875
29-09-2011, 07:08 AM
Is using the Hun word only sectarian if your a Tim?

Hainan Hibs
29-09-2011, 07:17 AM
For years we had to put up with their fans singing whatever they want with police just standing there. Finally they are beginning to move in and if it riles Scotlands Shame then even more fantastic

jonny
29-09-2011, 08:40 AM
FalkirkHibee
Wholeheartedly agree with their stance

You think sectarianism is OK?
Ask yourself why is it only Rangers fans carrying out these protests? Perhaps because they are about the only ones that it will really affect. Their "stance" suggests that they should be allowed to sing whatever they like because under current legislation they are not punished nearly enough for their vile and disgusting behaviour.

this new law with all the "anti-sectarian initiative" police officers going about at games now is utterly ridiculous.

Are you serious!? The Scottish Government/police are finally beginning to tackle the issues that have blighted football on the West coast for years. People getting stabbed because of the football shirt they wear... Young kids getting spat on because they are not of the correct denomination. These idiots have to be dealt with severely.
I have no doubt that the new law will be implemented with a degree of common sense by police.

To think that someone could, in theory, receive a five year prison sentence for calling someone a "hun" or for singing the British national anthem at a football match, beggars belief. Especially when I'm hearing today about a convicted rapist getting his minimum sentence halved to just four and a half years and the worst mass murderer in Scotland's history was released after serving just eight years in prison.

In theory a person could get 14 years for shoplifting. It doesn't happen. Generally sentencing is proportionate. If someone called someone else a "hun" they would not get a custodial sentence, if a person assaults another person solely due to the hatred they have for a group or race then they deserve a custodial sentence. The new recommended sentencing will reflect the crime.
On a side note, what does "God save the queen" have to do with football in Glasgow? It has no relevance to the game up here at all. There is a simple solution to not being arrested. Don't engage in sectarian or racist behaviour at the football.

This whole legislation has Alex Salmond and the SNP written all over it. He just wants to appear to be significant and to throw his authority around.

Finally you appear to have revealed the real reason behind your post. This is not so much a post relating to the "Blue order" or the "Teddy Bears picnic brigade" as a political statement. In my opinion the government need to throw a bit of authority around to show that the country will not accept they type of behaviour exhibited by Rangers fans. The last time I was at Ibrox (0-3) I witnessed a guy walking through a large group of Rangers fans with his son who must've been around 7 or 8. They were on their way to the game and had their colours visible. As they walked through the group they were called "Fenian B@$t@rds" , as they walked further on and passed me I saw the back of their jackets - the child as well, were covered in spit. The guy and his wee boy were terrified. This is the type of thing that in my opinion has to be stopped. It is the same people that carry out this type of behaviour that sing the "British national anthem" at football matches.

The 'thought police' are well and truly out in force nowadays and I personally find that very worrying.

Why? If you are not a bigot or racist the new legislation gives you absolutely nothing to worry about. It will not change the way I behave at the football at all. I'll go along, shout for the Hibs, join in with the singing of relevant football songs, go for a couple of beers and go home to my family the same as I always do.

Whatever happened to the freedom of speech?
People do have the freedom of speech. They just have to curb their speech short of offensive or derogatory remarks towards religious groups. Is this unacceptable to you? It's not to me. The new legislation not only tackles what people say but how they behave.

Darth Hibbie
29-09-2011, 09:12 AM
There are 2 separate issues in the statement. The first being from the game the other night. It has been illegal to take bottles into a game for nearly 20 years so it should be no great surprise to them that if you take one in then it is going to be dealt with. Hardly heavy handed tactics.

As for the new legislation, not going to effect me at all! Certainly not worried about getting arrested. I do not have much of a problem with the new legislation. Its not acceptable to walk down the street being offensive to folk so I do not see why it should suddenly be acceptable when you get into a football stadium disguised as banter. The only thing that could be improved is an explanation or definition of exactly what is or is not offensive. At least now something is getting done about it even if it is just a little at a time.

To me the statement stinks of look at us poor rangers fans we are getting picked on.

PeeKay
29-09-2011, 09:46 AM
I am sorry to disagree with so many on this thread, but I think that non-sectarian football fans do have something to worry about here. In every newspaper article I have read on the matter in recent days there is always a statement from a government spokesperson saying, "Sectarianism and other offensive behaviour will not be tolerated in modern Scotland".

The difficulty lies in the term "other offensive behaviour" and it seems to me that in the wording of the act "offensive behaviour" is so loosely defined that the law may be enforced on the whim of individual police officers and stewards.

I was at the game last night and shouted that Conroy was a useless barsteward (that was before he awarded the penalty). I am sure that he would find that offensive - but should it be a crime?

Great way to get rid of all those annoying loud-mouths who shout p!sh at games though. Just call a steward and tell them that you are offended :rolleyes:

Gerard
29-09-2011, 09:53 AM
There are sufficent laws regarding public order offences that can used against people who act in a way that breaks these laws. The problem is that these laws need to be invoked against people who break them. Celtic and Rangers fans have a right to sing songs that are not in breach of the laws regarding public order offences. The issue of what may be defined as sectarian is not so easy to draft because some people will say that they are offended by the use of certain words and other people may not be offended. Some Rangers fans take offence at being called Huns, some Celtic fans may equally be offended being called plastic Paddys. Do we want to see football games where fans are not able to support their team by being vocal in support of their team or have grounds that have the same atmosphere as a library. Is this want we want to see happen.

The issue os sectarianism is that needs to be examined and not just as a football one. There has to be a balance that protects freedom of expression and protects people from being assulted because they have a religious preference that some people disagree with.

Part/Time Supporter
29-09-2011, 09:58 AM
I am sorry to disagree with so many on this thread, but I think that non-sectarian football fans do have something to worry about here. In every newspaper article I have read on the matter in recent days there is always a statement from a government spokesperson saying, "Sectarianism and other offensive behaviour will not be tolerated in modern Scotland".

The difficulty lies in the term "other offensive behaviour" and it seems to me that in the wording of the act "offensive behaviour" is so loosely defined that the law may be enforced on the whim of individual police officers and stewards.

I was at the game last night and shouted that Conroy was a useless barsteward (that was before he awarded the penalty). I am sure that he would find that offensive - but should it be a crime?

Great way to get rid of all those annoying loud-mouths who shout p!sh at games though. Just call a steward and tell them that you are offended :rolleyes:

The reason for the "other offensive behaviour" is that Old Firmers are brilliant at finding any loophole in the existing anti-sectarian legislation.

eg Celtc fans claiming that when they sing "up the RA" they are referring to the 1916 Easter Rising bunch, not the 1969-97 terrorists.

SteveHFC
29-09-2011, 10:10 AM
we will on saturday when hibs fans will be called everthing under the sun but as soon as one of us complains it will be us emptied not them

Dashing Bob S
29-09-2011, 11:37 AM
The fact that Rangers supporters groups have addressed this legislation as a threat, means they precieve it as such and therfore it's touched a nerve. I used to be of the view that if clowns wanted to sing saddo bigoted songs to each other at football, on coaches or on trains, and it gives their pathetic lives some meaning, then let them get on with it.

However its been established just how damaging sectarianism is and has been to Scottish society, and it's time it was stamped out.

Yes, existing powers do exist but have manifestly failed to tackle the problem. This is because it has insitutional elements - it's much more than some people with low IQ's from bad homes in Ayrshire and Lanarkshire showboating their foolhardiness. I think the fear comes from the Rangers fans as they know this legislation is a potential game changer and might result in police, courts, officials etc who let previously that thing pass in pseudo-masonic cultural complicity, now getting off their backsides and targeting bigots.

Those people have been allowed to poison the minds of kids in these communities for generations, making them into little more than moron factories in the process. I've seen good kids and decent families tarnished by this virus, and more credit to the Scottish government (and the British taxman) for finally saying that enough is enough and these flat-earthers time is up.

hibsbollah
29-09-2011, 11:46 AM
I stumbled across this appalling article from an academic who appears to be a serial sectarianism denier. An interesting read, even though i disagree.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/24/scotland-sectarianism-research-data

ancient hibee
29-09-2011, 04:03 PM
He makes some valid points especially the fact that attending football matches in Scotland is very much a minority occupation.

hibsbollah
29-09-2011, 04:54 PM
He makes some valid points especially the fact that attending football matches in Scotland is very much a minority occupation. It was the next paragraph where he really falls on his face.

basehibby
29-09-2011, 05:51 PM
I am sorry to disagree with so many on this thread, but I think that non-sectarian football fans do have something to worry about here. In every newspaper article I have read on the matter in recent days there is always a statement from a government spokesperson saying, "Sectarianism and other offensive behaviour will not be tolerated in modern Scotland".

The difficulty lies in the term "other offensive behaviour" and it seems to me that in the wording of the act "offensive behaviour" is so loosely defined that the law may be enforced on the whim of individual police officers and stewards.

I was at the game last night and shouted that Conroy was a useless barsteward (that was before he awarded the penalty). I am sure that he would find that offensive - but should it be a crime?

Great way to get rid of all those annoying loud-mouths who shout p!sh at games though. Just call a steward and tell them that you are offended :rolleyes:

:agree: This is my concern also.

I am delighted that the politicians under the SNP's initiative are FINALLY getting their heads out of the sand and realising just how damaging the Old Squirm's pathetic bigot following are to the image of Scotland.

Action has been needed to combat sectarianism in Scotland for as long as I can remember - but the legislation proposed is so vague as to virtually guarantee that at some point it will be abused/misinterpretted/mistargetted, unjustly ruining people's lives in the process.

It's my opinion that the best way to combat sectarianism in football is to punish the clubs (eg with points deductions) whenever relevant offensive behaviour has been unmistakably identified amongst large sections of the support. This way fans will be encouraged to police themselves and the spouters of sectarian bile will soon find themselves shamed (or battered) into silence by their fellow supporters.

Green_one
29-09-2011, 06:09 PM
Almost shed a tear when I read the Rangers Fans were upset. All the wee lambs want to do is sing vile songs and threaten people, oh and the occasional murder and parcel bomb. Move along though nothing to see, what is really happening is their civil rights are being impacted :rolleyes:and we all fall inside that because we all sing those vile songs, threaten people etc. Though I seem to have forgotten doing so.

The new legislation may have some difficulty gaining friends but remember what happened last season. These idiots took the whole sick business to a new level with pantomime at the OF games, web sites with mad mad people on them and sending bombs to people in the law, parliament etc. Scotland was being dragged through the dirt. Something HAD to be done. We are obviously not winning the fight against these sick sick people.

It remains to be seen how the legislation pans out and how effective it is but the 'do nothing as it might do something bad' brigade is simply accepting a status quo that one hoped was dimiishing but became clear last season was actually being fed by the OF. The SPL and SFA did what they always do - ZERO. No Rangers fans were protesting against bigotry with anything like this effort. :rolleyes:

Some adopt the macho stance of 'if I want to shout things at a match I have every right to do so'. Sorry, times have changed and everyone one of us (and I include myself) needs to consider what they do shout and how they act. A football stadium is not an open zone for doing what you want. Its full of impressionable kids, people who have paid a lot of cash to be entertained and some radges who think they can do as they please. Hibs are not immune and should not be so. I think its clear by the OF panic that they can feel the breath of the law finally on their necks and I am delighted. They think dragging the SNP into it is somehow clever. Well guys the VOTERS put them in. They said they would legislate and have done so. What you gonna do about it? Vote Tory???:na na:

Bigotry (in all its forms) - Tick Tock

connerg
29-09-2011, 07:06 PM
Jeezo get over yourself, what a crock that is. The line in bold is just completely made up scaremongering.

Here's a new one. Support your team as loud as you want however maybe concentrate a little more limiting your song choices to football songs, not sectarian or songs about Irish politics which 90 odd per cent of Scots could care less about.:top marksAsset strip Scottish football for years, now someone stands up to them and their filthy ways and they want our backing. GTF, OFGTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sir David Gray
30-09-2011, 12:32 AM
You think sectarianism is OK?
Ask yourself why is it only Rangers fans carrying out these protests? Perhaps because they are about the only ones that it will really affect. Their "stance" suggests that they should be allowed to sing whatever they like because under current legislation they are not punished nearly enough for their vile and disgusting behaviour.

You'll have to be more specific than that.

I don't think assaulting Neil Lennon and sending him explosive devices through the post is remotely acceptable and these people need to be locked up for a very long time. However, people should also be able to express their opinions with regards to other religious denominations and on other issues, however controversial these opinions may be, without fear of arrest.

So long as people are not being physically abusive or threatening the lives of another human being then I have no problem with anyone who expresses their views in public.


Are you serious!? The Scottish Government/police are finally beginning to tackle the issues that have blighted football on the West coast for years. People getting stabbed because of the football shirt they wear... Young kids getting spat on because they are not of the correct denomination. These idiots have to be dealt with severely.
I have no doubt that the new law will be implemented with a degree of common sense by police.

At no point have I ever condoned people being stabbed or spat on. The "anti-sectarian initiative" officers who have arrived on the scene this season at matches will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the number of people being stabbed or spat on. They have only been brought in to deal with people shouting something that could be perceived as being offensive to another person. To me, arresting someone on the basis that they've shouted something that could be offensive to another person, is a very dangerous road to go down during a football match.

The people at the top of the police force will no doubt go along with supporting the government's action plan, in order to toe the party line, but I know for a fact that a lot of the normal officers on the street think that this increased presence during games is total overkill and unnecessary.


In theory a person could get 14 years for shoplifting. It doesn't happen. Generally sentencing is proportionate. If someone called someone else a "hun" they would not get a custodial sentence, if a person assaults another person solely due to the hatred they have for a group or race then they deserve a custodial sentence. The new recommended sentencing will reflect the crime.
On a side note, what does "God save the queen" have to do with football in Glasgow? It has no relevance to the game up here at all. There is a simple solution to not being arrested. Don't engage in sectarian or racist behaviour at the football.

Sentencing is proportionate? :confused:

Not in this country, it's not. Not for a long time.

The very fact that someone could even be arrested for using the term "hun" is a complete nonsense as it is not a sectarian term. I often use it to describe Rangers and their supporters and I'm a Protestant!!! I'd love to see what the police would charge a Protestant person with for using a term that is perceived to be offensive to Protestants. :rolleyes:

The problem is that, like so many other things these days, the word "hun" has been turned into something that it so blatantly is not, in order to suit the politically correct agenda of the authorities. The word "hun" is solely related to Rangers and their supporters. It may be meant to be derogatory towards them but it most certainly is not sectarian.

As for God Save The Queen, no-one's saying it has any relevance to football in Glasgow. But the fact of the matter is, it is the national anthem of the United Kingdom. A lot of people identify themselves as being British and therefore enjoy singing their national anthem. Personally that song is not for me and I never sing it but people should never be prosecuted or targeted in any way for singing God Save The Queen in this country.

The fact that a minister from the SNP executive could not make assurances that people would not be arrested under this new legislation for singing God Save The Queen at a football match, turns the whole Bill into a complete farce.

It is time to rip the whole thing up and start again from scratch.


Finally you appear to have revealed the real reason behind your post. This is not so much a post relating to the "Blue order" or the "Teddy Bears picnic brigade" as a political statement. In my opinion the government need to throw a bit of authority around to show that the country will not accept they type of behaviour exhibited by Rangers fans. The last time I was at Ibrox (0-3) I witnessed a guy walking through a large group of Rangers fans with his son who must've been around 7 or 8. They were on their way to the game and had their colours visible. As they walked through the group they were called "Fenian B@$t@rds" , as they walked further on and passed me I saw the back of their jackets - the child as well, were covered in spit. The guy and his wee boy were terrified. This is the type of thing that in my opinion has to be stopped. It is the same people that carry out this type of behaviour that sing the "British national anthem" at football matches.

Of course that has to be stopped, no-one's saying that kind of behaviour is right or is the slightest bit acceptable. However I don't necessarily think that they should be prosecuted for a sectarian offence. I hear quite frequently about incidents that happen before and after Edinburgh derbies, with people being spat on, tripped up and called a "Hibee/Jambo bassa" just for having the audacity to go about an area that is heavily populated with the opposing team's fans, whilst wearing your own team's colours.

Unfortunately that kind of incident happens all the time, in every single country in the world, when two sets of fans from two rival clubs come into contact with each other. That's not a problem that is endemic to Scotland.

What are you going to be more upset with? The fact that you've been spat on/tripped up or the fact that someone's called you an unpleasant name? I know what my answer would be to that one.

I am not a great fan of Alex Salmond or the SNP, that much is true. However, it is certainly not a political statement at all. I am concerned with the erosion of the right that people have to free speech and I would put forward that view, regardless of which party was proposing this legislation at the moment.


Why? If you are not a bigot or racist the new legislation gives you absolutely nothing to worry about. It will not change the way I behave at the football at all. I'll go along, shout for the Hibs, join in with the singing of relevant football songs, go for a couple of beers and go home to my family the same as I always do.

This is not going to just stop at football matches and you're sorely mistaken if you think that it will. This is the kind of legislation that is creeping into every aspect of daily life in our society. It's getting to the stage now where people are frightened to open their mouths, in case they offend a particular group of people and they will end up in court and with a criminal record for giving an opinion.


People do have the freedom of speech. They just have to curb their speech short of offensive or derogatory remarks towards religious groups. Is this unacceptable to you? It's not to me. The new legislation not only tackles what people say but how they behave.

When it suits.

Being offensive or derogatory towards Christianity these days is actually quite fashionable in this country. In fact, it's actually Christians, in a wider sense, who are quite often being targeted as a result of all this kind of legislation. They have to be very careful with how they proclaim their faith and how they put forward their views on various social issues. It's not unusual to hear about a Christian being spoken to by the police, and sometimes even arrested, because their opinions have upset a member of the public.

One of my favourite quotes that I have ever heard is this;

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it."

As far as I'm concerned, that is so true and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

CFC
30-09-2011, 01:20 AM
So the "Union" Bears and the Blue "Order" are saying "No Surrender" to this anti sectarian legislation? You just could not make this up, once again one half of the Infirm play the victim card with no appreciation for irony.

NAE NOOKIE
30-09-2011, 10:33 AM
Dont have a problem with any law designed to combat sectarianism or racism etc.

But that law has to be carefull not to tread on peoples right to free speech and be carefull not to blur the lines between what is acceptable and what is not.

For instance...... Why is calling a rankgers fan a Hun sectarian ? Yes it is supposed to be offensive, but the insult is not based on religion, race or creed. If it is considered by the law to be a word which comes under the new legislation then any word deemed to be insulting or offensive is fair game. E.G. call the ref an idiot and you could be arrested for it.

If you think I am being over sensitive then consider this:

In the Borders it is common for the folk living in the surrounding towns to call the inhabitants of Galashiels ' Pail merks ' This is a good natured jibe at Gala allegedly being the last border town to get inside toilets. The people of Gala refer to folk from Selkirk as Japs ... Never been able to find out why.

So if I offend a guy from Selkirk by calling him a Jap, could he get me arrested. Where will it all end !!!

I'm all for stamping out bigotry, but lets do it in a sensible way.

green glory
30-09-2011, 10:35 AM
Just vermin!

Joe Baker II
30-09-2011, 03:27 PM
Would recommend the Steve Bruce article for everyone on this thread - only disagreement is that football watchers may be a minority in Scotland but is a pretty large minority compared to elsewhere - would estimate over a 1-2 million people attend one game per season given over 40,000 watch junior football on a single weekend alone. And SNP's ridiculous plans cover watching games in pubs too.

Used to like Salmond but this authoritarian proposal will stop me voting SNP again.

hibsbollah
30-09-2011, 07:35 PM
Would recommend the Steve Bruce article for everyone on this thread - only disagreement is that football watchers may be a minority in Scotland but is a pretty large minority compared to elsewhere - would estimate over a 1-2 million people attend one game per season given over 40,000 watch junior football on a single weekend alone. And SNP's ridiculous plans cover watching games in pubs too.

Used to like Salmond but this authoritarian proposal will stop me voting SNP again.

You liked the article? I thought Bruce's statement that sectarianism in Scotland is a myth was astonishingly stupid.

blueisthecolour
30-09-2011, 08:07 PM
Dont have a problem with any law designed to combat sectarianism or racism etc.

But that law has to be carefull not to tread on peoples right to free speech and be carefull not to blur the lines between what is acceptable and what is not.

For instance...... Why is calling a rankgers fan a Hun sectarian ? Yes it is supposed to be offensive, but the insult is not based on religion, race or creed. If it is considered by the law to be a word which comes under the new legislation then any word deemed to be insulting or offensive is fair game. E.G. call the ref an idiot and you could be arrested for it.

If you think I am being over sensitive then consider this:

In the Borders it is common for the folk living in the surrounding towns to call the inhabitants of Galashiels ' Pail merks ' This is a good natured jibe at Gala allegedly being the last border town to get inside toilets. The people of Gala refer to folk from Selkirk as Japs ... Never been able to find out why.

So if I offend a guy from Selkirk by calling him a Jap, could he get me arrested. Where will it all end !!!

I'm all for stamping out bigotry, but lets do it in a sensible way.

Very interesting, what is a hun then, serious question, I know it has been asked before but know one seems to be able to give an answer.

Elephant Stone
30-09-2011, 08:17 PM
Very interesting, what is a hun then, serious question, I know it has been asked before but know one seems to be able to give an answer.

Huns are the guys who like to make fascist salutes while singing about Britain ruling the waves and about killing "fenians". Rangers fans are the rest, there aren't many of them, obviously.

ronaldo7
30-09-2011, 08:37 PM
The currant bun.

Interesting to see their's a Chelsea variation:wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currant_bun

ancient hibee
30-09-2011, 08:41 PM
Almost shed a tear when I read the Rangers Fans were upset. All the wee lambs want to do is sing vile songs and threaten people, oh and the occasional murder and parcel bomb. Move along though nothing to see, what is really happening is their civil rights are being impacted :rolleyes:and we all fall inside that because we all sing those vile songs, threaten people etc. Though I seem to have forgotten doing so.

The new legislation may have some difficulty gaining friends but remember what happened last season. These idiots took the whole sick business to a new level with pantomime at the OF games, web sites with mad mad people on them and sending bombs to people in the law, parliament etc. Scotland was being dragged through the dirt. Something HAD to be done. We are obviously not winning the fight against these sick sick people.

It remains to be seen how the legislation pans out and how effective it is but the 'do nothing as it might do something bad' brigade is simply accepting a status quo that one hoped was dimiishing but became clear last season was actually being fed by the OF. The SPL and SFA did what they always do - ZERO. No Rangers fans were protesting against bigotry with anything like this effort. :rolleyes:

Some adopt the macho stance of 'if I want to shout things at a match I have every right to do so'. Sorry, times have changed and everyone one of us (and I include myself) needs to consider what they do shout and how they act. A football stadium is not an open zone for doing what you want. Its full of impressionable kids, people who have paid a lot of cash to be entertained and some radges who think they can do as they please. Hibs are not immune and should not be so. I think its clear by the OF panic that they can feel the breath of the law finally on their necks and I am delighted. They think dragging the SNP into it is somehow clever. Well guys the VOTERS put them in. They said they would legislate and have done so. What you gonna do about it? Vote Tory???:na na:

Bigotry (in all its forms) - Tick Tock

You seem to be missing the point that people have been arrested for sending bombs,internet threats etc.under EXISTING legislation.All this new stuff was Wee Eck thinking he was on a good thing-you watch them squirm to change the new emphasis.Still the human rights lawyers will be ordering trebles all round.

blueisthecolour
30-09-2011, 08:48 PM
Huns are the guys who like to make fascist salutes while singing about Britain ruling the waves and about killing "fenians". Rangers fans are the rest, there aren't many of them, obviously.

Im forever being called a hun on here, never have I did a fascist salute, ive never seen kilmarnock fans doing the above either but have heard them called the ayrshire huns, this making me doubt it has anything to do with Rangers.

ancient hibee
30-09-2011, 08:59 PM
Im forever being called a hun on here, never have I did a fascist salute, ive never seen kilmarnock fans doing the above either but have heard them called the ayrshire huns, this making me doubt it has anything to do with Rangers.

As football fans are so learned they will remember that Attilla the Hun sacked Rome in 563 AD(guess?)

jabis
30-09-2011, 09:04 PM
FalkirkHibee
Wholeheartedly agree with their stance

You think sectarianism is OK?
Ask yourself why is it only Rangers fans carrying out these protests? Perhaps because they are about the only ones that it will really affect. Their "stance" suggests that they should be allowed to sing whatever they like because under current legislation they are not punished nearly enough for their vile and disgusting behaviour.

this new law with all the "anti-sectarian initiative" police officers going about at games now is utterly ridiculous.

Are you serious!? The Scottish Government/police are finally beginning to tackle the issues that have blighted football on the West coast for years. People getting stabbed because of the football shirt they wear... Young kids getting spat on because they are not of the correct denomination. These idiots have to be dealt with severely.
I have no doubt that the new law will be implemented with a degree of common sense by police.

To think that someone could, in theory, receive a five year prison sentence for calling someone a "hun" or for singing the British national anthem at a football match, beggars belief. Especially when I'm hearing today about a convicted rapist getting his minimum sentence halved to just four and a half years and the worst mass murderer in Scotland's history was released after serving just eight years in prison.

In theory a person could get 14 years for shoplifting. It doesn't happen. Generally sentencing is proportionate. If someone called someone else a "hun" they would not get a custodial sentence, if a person assaults another person solely due to the hatred they have for a group or race then they deserve a custodial sentence. The new recommended sentencing will reflect the crime.
On a side note, what does "God save the queen" have to do with football in Glasgow? It has no relevance to the game up here at all. There is a simple solution to not being arrested. Don't engage in sectarian or racist behaviour at the football.

This whole legislation has Alex Salmond and the SNP written all over it. He just wants to appear to be significant and to throw his authority around.

Finally you appear to have revealed the real reason behind your post. This is not so much a post relating to the "Blue order" or the "Teddy Bears picnic brigade" as a political statement. In my opinion the government need to throw a bit of authority around to show that the country will not accept they type of behaviour exhibited by Rangers fans. The last time I was at Ibrox (0-3) I witnessed a guy walking through a large group of Rangers fans with his son who must've been around 7 or 8. They were on their way to the game and had their colours visible. As they walked through the group they were called "Fenian B@$t@rds" , as they walked further on and passed me I saw the back of their jackets - the child as well, were covered in spit. The guy and his wee boy were terrified. This is the type of thing that in my opinion has to be stopped. It is the same people that carry out this type of behaviour that sing the "British national anthem" at football matches.

The 'thought police' are well and truly out in force nowadays and I personally find that very worrying.

Why? If you are not a bigot or racist the new legislation gives you absolutely nothing to worry about. It will not change the way I behave at the football at all. I'll go along, shout for the Hibs, join in with the singing of relevant football songs, go for a couple of beers and go home to my family the same as I always do.

Whatever happened to the freedom of speech?
People do have the freedom of speech. They just have to curb their speech short of offensive or derogatory remarks towards religious groups. Is this unacceptable to you? It's not to me. The new legislation not only tackles what people say but how they behave.

:not worth:top marks

CabbageBoy
30-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Wholeheartedly agree with their stance, this new law with all the "anti-sectarian initiative" police officers going about at games now is utterly ridiculous.

To think that someone could, in theory, receive a five year prison sentence for calling someone a "hun" or for singing the British national anthem at a football match, beggars belief. Especially when I'm hearing today about a convicted rapist getting his minimum sentence halved to just four and a half years and the worst mass murderer in Scotland's history was released after serving just eight years in prison.

This whole legislation has Alex Salmond and the SNP written all over it. He just wants to appear to be significant and to throw his authority around.

The 'thought police' are well and truly out in force nowadays and I personally find that very worrying.

Whatever happened to the freedom of speech?

The new law is not passed yet. It does not have a list of banned words or songs. The test for whether something is offensive or not is whether a reasonable person would find it so. Rangers fans are certainly trying to have it enter the media that 'hun' is such a word, but I dont seem to see any reason for a reasonable person to think so; likewise 'Tim'. I'd have them down as words like Jambo or Hibbie; shorthand for a group of supporters of a particular team. The problem with the legislation will be that the minor offence will be treated as a police direct measure; you'll be offered an on the spot fine of Ł40, but it is not a conviction and it will disappear from your history in (probably) two years. Basically, it will be used as a piece of public theatre, where the officer will get out his ticket book very visibly in order to quiet a crowd, if he thinks it will work.

The more serious offence is for the keyboard hardmen on the internet, making threats etc. That's the one with the five year tag.

While Foye (and Petch) may have had the punishment parts of their sentences reduced, all that means is that the Parole Board will be telling them they are not getting out anytime soon a little bit earlier. It will not affect the sentence they serve.

blueisthecolour
30-09-2011, 09:49 PM
The new law is not passed yet. It does not have a list of banned words or songs. The test for whether something is offensive or not is whether a reasonable person would find it so. Rangers fans are certainly trying to have it enter the media that 'hun' is such a word, but I dont seem to see any reason for a reasonable person to think so; likewise 'Tim'. I'd have them down as words like Jambo or Hibbie; shorthand for a group of supporters of a particular team. The problem with the legislation will be that the minor offence will be treated as a police direct measure; you'll be offered an on the spot fine of Ł40, but it is not a conviction and it will disappear from your history in (probably) two years. Basically, it will be used as a piece of public theatre, where the officer will get out his ticket book very visibly in order to quiet a crowd, if he thinks it will work.

The more serious offence is for the keyboard hardmen on the internet, making threats etc. That's the one with the five year tag.

While Foye (and Petch) may have had the punishment parts of their sentences reduced, all that means is that the Parole Board will be telling them they are not getting out anytime soon a little bit earlier. It will not affect the sentence they serve.

Jambo (Hearts fans call themselfs this)- Jam tarts - hearts
Tim - (Celtic fans call themselfs this) Tim alloys- they call themselfs this
Hibbie (Hibs fans call themselfs this) Hibs
Hun - Rangers-(Odd one out)

I can see a connection to all teams except one.

Airdrie have been known as mini huns
Hearts have been known as mini huns
Killie have been known as Ayrshire huns
What have these teams got to do with Rangers?

Hiber-nation
30-09-2011, 09:58 PM
Tim - (Celtic fans call themselfs this) Tim alloys- they call themselfs this


I think its Tim Malloys....unless they were nicknamed after a homogeneous mixture or metallic solid solution composed of two or more elements :wink:

Dashing Bob S
30-09-2011, 10:04 PM
Jambo (Hearts fans call themselfs this)- Jam tarts - hearts
Tim - (Celtic fans call themselfs this) Tim alloys- they call themselfs this
Hibbie (Hibs fans call themselfs this) Hibs
Hun - Rangers-(Odd one out)

I can see a connection to all teams except one.

Airdrie have been known as mini huns
Hearts have been known as mini huns
Killie have been known as Ayrshire huns
What have these teams got to do with Rangers?

Rangers fans call themselves Teddy Bears. Celtic call them Huns, as a derogatory term for their rivals.

This has become a wide and accepted term because fans of other clubs think it describes them well.

Hibs fans call themselves Hibees. Hearts call them Hobos, as a derogatory term for their rivals.


This hasn't become a wide and accepted term, but even if it did, I doubt anybody here would care, and I doubt they'd be so pathetic and victim-embracing to denounce it as a racist or abusive term for Catholics/people of Irish extraction/homeless football supporters/people from East Edinburgh etc etc.

The crux of it is, like all bigoted bores, you lot, and your friends across the city, are pathetic children.

And the other teams you mention have nothing to do with Rangers, it's just a cruel way of insulting them by comparing them (unfairly) to that toxic institution.

lapsedhibee
30-09-2011, 11:21 PM
I'll be apoplectic if bluenose is defined as a sectarian, or otherwise offensive, term. :grr:

givescotlandfreedom
01-10-2011, 01:09 AM
Jambo (Hearts fans call themselfs this)- Jam tarts - hearts
Tim - (Celtic fans call themselfs this) Tim alloys- they call themselfs this
Hibbie (Hibs fans call themselfs this) Hibs
Hun - Rangers-(Odd one out)

I can see a connection to all teams except one.

Airdrie have been known as mini huns
Hearts have been known as mini huns
Killie have been known as Ayrshire huns
What have these teams got to do with Rangers?

Suppose by your logic it's sectarian when Hun fans call us Hivs then?

Haymaker
01-10-2011, 01:51 AM
Hibs fans call themselves Hibees. Hearts call them Hobos, as a derogatory term for their rivals.



I am proud to be a hobo, junkie, peg-selling, caravan dwelling hibs *******.


At least I am not a Hearts fan.

Jack
01-10-2011, 09:26 AM
You liked the article? I thought Bruce's statement that sectarianism in Scotland is a myth was astonishingly stupid. Apart from the myth assertion I thought it was a very interesting use of a survey in Glasgow which I'll be looking for later.

Jack
01-10-2011, 09:34 AM
As football fans are so learned they will remember that Attilla the Hun sacked Rome in 563 AD(guess?) That was why I thought they were called the Hun! Hoards of marauding ********s destroying everything and everywhere they visit around Europe. Its an easy mistake when you look at the two of them together.

Moulin Yarns
01-10-2011, 10:51 AM
Jambo (Hearts fans call themselfs this)- Jam tarts - hearts
Tim - (Celtic fans call themselfs this) Tim alloys- they call themselfs this
Hibbie (Hibs fans call themselfs this) Hibs
Hun - Rangers-(Odd one out)

I can see a connection to all teams except one.

Airdrie have been known as mini huns
Hearts have been known as mini huns
Killie have been known as Ayrshire huns
What have these teams got to do with Rangers?

Celtic are called tims based on an amalgamation of Catholic gangs who called themselves the 'Tim Malloys' from the Calton area of Glasgow in the early 1900's.

Rangers are called hun from the word 'Hanoverian' - protestant monarchy from Hanover, Germany who came to the British throne in 1714 with King George 1st, which in turn led to the Jacobite rebellion. http://www.rangersfansvcelticfans.com/intro.html

Therfore referring to the lesser greens as Tims is not sectarian, but calling a Bluenose a Hun is sectarian because of the 'religeous' connotation. (I think) As for your question, they are all wannabes, and seem to hate all things Celtc/Hibs.

Elephant Stone
01-10-2011, 10:58 AM
Im forever being called a hun on here, never have I did a fascist salute, ive never seen kilmarnock fans doing the above either but have heard them called the ayrshire huns, this making me doubt it has anything to do with Rangers.

That's what a hun is for me anyway. If it's used more generally by other folk for Rangers in general I don't see the biggie, the idea that "hun" is meant as an offensive word for Protestants is utter piss.

SouthamptonHibs
01-10-2011, 10:59 AM
not often do i agree with the Huns but to be fair the guy has a point!

What i think he saying is working class guys are getting forced out the stadiums, football fans are being picked on!
Scottish police must be the worst in the world..can't controll 7, 8 9000 fans when the English police need half the numbers and control crowds around the 20, 30 and 40,000 mark.

There is room for the working class guy in every stadium family friendly grounds are boring, nae atmospher!

I wonder how many of the 990 Hibees travelling through tody will get lifted for singing go home ya Huns!

Hail Hail

Colonel_HFC
01-10-2011, 07:58 PM
Jeezo get over yourself, what a crock that is. The line in bold is just completely made up scaremongering.

Here's a new one. Support your team as loud as you want however maybe concentrate a little more limiting your song choices to football songs, not sectarian or songs about Irish politics which 90 odd per cent of Scots could care less about.

I think you mean 'could NOT care less about'.

What you have said (could care less about) only implies that they care a certain amount about this and could possibly care less - and surely that's exactly the opposite of what you were trying to say. If it's completely unimportant to 90% of Scots then they could not care less about it. But what you've said suggests that they could actually care a whole lot about it.

If you still can't understand this point then here is an example scenario:

Person A hears a story about cost cutting in his company. He cares a lot about this because he may lose his job. He could always relax and not worry so much i.e. he COULD care less about it. This is what you have said and it doesn't imply that Person A (or Scots in your case) doesn't care. All it says is that he does care a certain amount but it's not the least important thing to him.

Person B does not work for this company and doesn't like person A anyway. Therefore person B could not care less.

You may have made a good or bad point in your post but it doesn't matter because you messed it up and lost all credibility with your nonsensical statement at the end. Rant over. I imagine that you couldn't care less about it, or could you?

cabbageandribs1875
01-10-2011, 09:53 PM
Omfg

Jonnyboy
01-10-2011, 09:59 PM
I think its Tim Malloys....unless they were nicknamed after a homogeneous mixture or metallic solid solution composed of two or more elements :wink:

I think he used 'alloys' because the Celtic Tims are masters of relieving cars of their wheels :greengrin

Kato
01-10-2011, 10:02 PM
Rangers are called hun from the word 'Hanoverian' - protestant monarchy from Hanover, Germany who came to the British throne in 1714 with King George 1st, which in turn led to the Jacobite rebellion. http://www.rangersfansvcelticfans.com/intro.html

What a load of garbage.

Rangers fans are called Huns because in the 1970's, what with the baggy denim clothes, long hair, general straggly look they looked like Atilla The Hun's hoard.

Check four mins, 10 secs here for a prime example.

http://youtu.be/_rvPIy0Q8ps

lEXO
01-10-2011, 10:06 PM
[QUOTE=Colonel_HFC;2935535]I think you mean 'could NOT care less about'.

What you have said (could care less about) only implies that they care a certain amount about this and could possibly care less - and surely that's exactly the opposite of what you were trying to say. If it's completely unimportant to 90% of Scots then they could not care less about it. But what you've said suggests that they could actually care a whole lot about it.

If you still can't understand this point then here is an example scenario:

Person A hears a story about cost cutting in his company. He cares a lot about this because he may lose his job. He could always relax and not worry so much i.e. he COULD care less about it. This is what you have said and it doesn't imply that Person A (or Scots in your case) doesn't care. All it says is that he does care a certain amount but it's not the least important thing to him.

Person B does not work for this company and doesn't like person A anyway. Therefore person B could not care less.

You may have made a good or bad point in your post but it doesn't matter because you messed it up and lost all credibility with your nonsensical statement at the end. Rant over. I imagine that you couldn't care less about it, or could you?[/QUOT

WOW. What a

Carheenlea
01-10-2011, 10:39 PM
Airdrie have been known as mini huns
Hearts have been known as mini huns
Killie have been known as Ayrshire huns
What have these teams got to do with Rangers?

Had the misfortune to experience said club`s fans at close quarters over the years, and it`s not a radical claim to suggest that those clubs fans and yours are largely populated by like-minded people.

blueisthecolour
01-10-2011, 10:59 PM
Had the misfortune to experience said club`s fans at close quarters over the years, and it`s not a radical claim to suggest that those clubs fans and yours are largely populated by like-minded people.

Like minded people- could you expand on that please?

Carheenlea
01-10-2011, 11:34 PM
Like minded people- could you expand on that please?

Huns

lapsedhibee
02-10-2011, 08:03 AM
I think you mean 'could NOT care less about'.

What you have said (could care less about) only implies that they care a certain amount about this and could possibly care less - and surely that's exactly the opposite of what you were trying to say. If it's completely unimportant to 90% of Scots then they could not care less about it. But what you've said suggests that they could actually care a whole lot about it.

If you still can't understand this point then here is an example scenario:

Person A hears a story about cost cutting in his company. He cares a lot about this because he may lose his job. He could always relax and not worry so much i.e. he COULD care less about it. This is what you have said and it doesn't imply that Person A (or Scots in your case) doesn't care. All it says is that he does care a certain amount but it's not the least important thing to him.

Person B does not work for this company and doesn't like person A anyway. Therefore person B could not care less.

You may have made a good or bad point in your post but it doesn't matter because you messed it up and lost all credibility with your nonsensical statement at the end. Rant over. I imagine that you couldn't care less about it, or could you?

Shirley 'could care less' is just the way that Americans express exactly the same idea that native Brits express by saying 'couldn't care less'?

Native Aberdonians do a similar thing with 'is it?' when non-Aberdonians would say 'isn't it?'.

Conclusion: grammar's a moveable feast, is it.

blueisthecolour
02-10-2011, 08:13 AM
Huns
Thank you, you have just proved my point, so hun is not a rangers fan there is more to it that that. its an offensive term which I think will come under the new legislation and then watch everyone moan when they get banned from football or a criminal record for singing go home ya huns, this is what the statement is about and imo most clubs fans will fall foul of this, and then the meltdown will start.

Just my opinion.

lapsedhibee
02-10-2011, 08:17 AM
Thank you, you have just proved my point, so hun is not a rangers fan there is more to it that that. its an offensive term which I think will come under the new legislation and then watch everyone moan when they get banned from football or a criminal record for singing go home ya huns, this is what the statement is about and imo most clubs fans will fall foul of this, and then the meltdown will start.

Just my opinion.

Even if perfectly normal people are not allowed to call you huns or encourage you to go home as huns, you'll still be huns. :singing: Go home ya stills, go home ya stills, go home ya stills, go home :singing:

blueisthecolour
02-10-2011, 08:27 AM
Even if perfectly normal people are not allowed to call you huns or encourage you to go home as huns, you'll still be huns. :singing: Go home ya stills, go home ya stills, go home ya stills, go home :singing:

And see if this legislation gets passed, you realize you could could end up with a criminal record for that, seriously is it right to go to jail for a song?

I don't know if you saw the banner yesterday but it summed it up for me

"Al Megrahi sits at home, football fans sit in jail"

ronaldo7
02-10-2011, 08:28 AM
Huns

:agree: Hating Unedifying Neanderthal S***

matty_f
02-10-2011, 08:31 AM
Thank you, you have just proved my point, so hun is not a rangers fan there is more to it that that. its an offensive term which I think will come under the new legislation and then watch everyone moan when they get banned from football or a criminal record for singing go home ya huns, this is what the statement is about and imo most clubs fans will fall foul of this, and then the meltdown will start.

Just my opinion.

For the record, I would happily sing 'go home ya huns' to the catholic Rangers supporters, the black ones, the white ones, the protestant ones, the Jewish ones, the Muslim ones...

Hee-haw to do with religion, everything to do with being a Rangers fan, or Hun as I like to call you/them.

blackpoolhibs
02-10-2011, 08:44 AM
If hun is deemed to be sectarian, then we can just hum the tune, like you lot have done with the songs you are not allowed to sing and that will be fine.

Carheenlea
02-10-2011, 09:10 AM
So, if this legislation was to go through, what would then be an acceptable term for someone, say for example an attention seeking Rangers fan, who spends a lot of time posting on Hibernian fans forums?

Sylar
02-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Seeing as etymology is the order of the day (my understanding was that Hun wasn't used until after the WWII, where hun was a derogatory term used to 'address' the German army, Germany being the seat of protestantism...) why is the word "Fenian" sectarian?

The Fenians were the National Republicans who helped to establish the Irish Republic as it is today and is not a religious slur. Only in Scotland and Northern Ireland has the "definition" of Fenian come to hold sectarian relevance.

PaulSmith
02-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Thank you, you have just proved my point, so hun is not a rangers fan there is more to it that that. its an offensive term which I think will come under the new legislation and then watch everyone moan when they get banned from football or a criminal record for singing go home ya huns, this is what the statement is about and imo most clubs fans will fall foul of this, and then the meltdown will start.

Just my opinion.

Spot on Mr Blue.

Lucius Apuleius
02-10-2011, 09:20 AM
So, if this legislation was to go through, what would then be an acceptable term for someone, say for example an attention seeking Rangers fan, who spends a lot of time posting on Hibernian fans forums?

A prick? A hun one at that.

Bostonhibby
02-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Like minded people- could you expand on that please?

In my experience ,at each of these clubs grounds, you can to varying degrees see , Union Jack flags, the Red Hand of Ulster and even England tops - all well known images of Scottish football, Additionally you can hear songs like No Surrender and even in the 21st Century people who seem to rejoice in the aspiration of being "up to their knees in fenian blood" and what God Save the Queen has to do with your average football match or club god only knows.

Amongst Rangers and Hearts fans in particular I have seen some magnificent tattoos of a camp looking guy on a horse with remember 1690 written alongside.

These common themes make it fair comment to suggest they are like minded, I suspect theres a significant enough percentage with institutional connections (masonic lodges for example) to further support this assumption but as I haven't got a set of antlers or a need to hide my inadequacies by joining a gang I can't actually prove this one.

PS - one of the funniest moments in my years of following Hibs came courtesy of one of your guys with a tattoo of a lady type man with a wig on a prancing horse and 1690 written on his arm forever. Mid 80's we had drawn 1-1 with you at Ibrox and once I wiped the spit of myself I went for a few beers in the Wee Howf in Paisley.

Had a pretty good bit of banter with yer man but he was very keen on emphasising the "historical" side. Inevitably discussions centred around his all too visible tat - He simply would not accept my take on history that the Boyne was a battle on Irish Soil, preferring to see it as marking they day my "lot" were driven out of Scotland for good - I am an agnostic atheist with a protestant background if I had to pick a religious link but what it had to do with why I support who I support.........................?

Albion Hibs
02-10-2011, 09:33 AM
Rangers and celtic fans need to get a grip of themselves. The media has after a very long time put their vile antics under the spotlight and they are now being pulled up for it. It is like a spoiled brat, that gets what they want when the want, they dont want to hear the word no and simply do things they way they want to do them. Unfortunatly Supernanny has now been called in to assist with the discipline of this lot and surprise surprise the toys are coming out of the pram - well tough luck.

For them to belittle the whole thing but trying an childish attempt to get others involved by saying we could all be in trouble for these minor things, is simply not true and a way of them trying to get support for their pash cause. I will give them a clue, cut out the sectarian singing and all the stuff that goes with it and the problem will be solved, if you think I am going to support putting the brakes on something like that then you are kidding yourself. It affects only two sets of supporters and I would not walk the length of myself to do anything for them.

Yesterday as I was walking into Ibrox some ger handed me some sort of leafet about the SNP, it was duely handed back to him and he was told to ram it. There chanting during the game about the SNP made me laugh, I am sure half of them missplent it at that. There point was as usual reduced to nothing when they brust in to seveal versus of their english anthem, over, and over, and over again. None of them even looked embarrassed when the hibs fans burst into a course of flower of scotland (perhaps the highlight of the day for me).

In summary, sort out your own you own house before you start looking around for others to come in and help you. Your antics have caught up with you, you got away with it for long enough.

Bostonhibby
02-10-2011, 09:34 AM
Thank you, you have just proved my point, so hun is not a rangers fan there is more to it that that. its an offensive term which I think will come under the new legislation and then watch everyone moan when they get banned from football or a criminal record for singing go home ya huns, this is what the statement is about and imo most clubs fans will fall foul of this, and then the meltdown will start.

Just my opinion.

Can we still call you Bears? I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bear baiting was illegal now as well :wink:

Maybe fair enough as I have never been that keen on exploiting dumb animals :greengrin

blueisthecolour
02-10-2011, 09:46 AM
For the record, I would happily sing 'go home ya huns' to the catholic Rangers supporters, the black ones, the white ones, the protestant ones, the Jewish ones, the Muslim ones...

Do you think the rangers fans who use the term fenian miss out black, white, protestant jewish muslim celtic fans, no but it is still sectarian slur.

Hee-haw to do with religion, everything to do with being a Rangers fan, or Hun as I like to call you/them.


If hun is deemed to be sectarian, then we can just hum the tune, like you lot have done with the songs you are not allowed to sing and that will be fine.

Songs- only one song on the banned list is billyboys the rest are not banned as long as the add ons are not sung, tbf we don't hum the billy boys we sing a song for edu to that tune, and why is billyboys banned for rangers fans yet other teams can sing it, if rangers fans changed the word fenian to celtic that should be ok, if not then everyone should be banned from singing it.


So, if this legislation was to go through, what would then be an acceptable term for someone, say for example an attention seeking Rangers fan, who spends a lot of time posting on Hibernian fans forums?

Rangers fan, bluenose will be fine thanks


Seeing as etymology is the order of the day (my understanding was that Hun wasn't used until after the WWII, where hun was a derogatory term used to 'address' the German army, Germany being the seat of protestantism...) why is the word "Fenian" sectarian?

The Fenians were the National Republicans who helped to establish the Irish Republic as it is today and is not a religious slur. Only in Scotland and Northern Ireland has the "definition" of Fenian come to hold sectarian relevance.
Fans will be jailed for calling someone a fenian yet celtic fans sing paddy mccourt's fenian army and some wear scarves with unrepentant fenian bas@@rd, so is the word fenian banned or is it only banned for some.

matty_f
02-10-2011, 09:50 AM
Do you think the rangers fans who use the term fenian miss out black, white, protestant jewish muslim celtic fans, no but it is still sectarian slur..

I very much doubt that the bulk of Rangers fans have the mental capacity to realise that the Celtc support could contain anything other than those of the Catholic denomination.

I also very much doubt if you realise how little most of us give a toss about what Rangers fans think.

Moulin Yarns
02-10-2011, 09:56 AM
To get a definitive answer about what may be considered offensive, read this

http://nilbymouth.org/history/

Offensive sectarian language is still used in Scotland on a daily basis, with abusive terms such as “Hun” and “Orange *******” being used negatively against Protestants (or those perceived to be) and others such as “Fenian” and “Tim” used negatively against Catholics (or those perceived to be). This reinforces religious and racial stereotypes as well as fuelling the divisions and conflict between the denominations and poeple of no religious denomination. Children commonly use words without any knowledge of their meaning, but with an understanding that these words are a means by which to insult others.

Celtc supporters, I believe, as has already been mentioned, refer to themselves as 'tims' so that may mean it should not be considered offensive, now if the Blue side would start greeting themselves as huns everything would be alright.

A bit like a person of African origin being called a N***** by a Caucasian is offensive, but they themselves talk of themselves in the same way. "Currently, some black Americans continue to use the word ******, often spelled as nigga and niggah, without irony, to either neutral effect or as a sign of solidarity." (Allan, Keith. The Pragmatics of Connotation. Journal of Pragmatics 39:6 (June 2007) 1047-57)


Alternatively we should make 'Billy Boys' a derogitory term for good measure. :wink:

EH54
02-10-2011, 10:02 AM
If you think your treated unfairly try sitting in the away section at Ibrox,

Moulin Yarns
02-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Here's a thought for Mr Blue, are you willing to stay on here and comment on the songs which are sung at Tynecastle this afternoon?

One side will be singing from your own hymn book while the other will no doubt be defiling your sensitive ears. :greengrin

Cannae wait.

connerg
02-10-2011, 10:40 AM
Rangers and celtic fans need to get a grip of themselves. The media has after a very long time put their vile antics under the spotlight and they are now being pulled up for it. It is like a spoiled brat, that gets what they want when the want, they dont want to hear the word no and simply do things they way they want to do them. Unfortunatly Supernanny has now been called in to assist with the discipline of this lot and surprise surprise the toys are coming out of the pram - well tough luck.

For them to belittle the whole thing but trying an childish attempt to get others involved by saying we could all be in trouble for these minor things, is simply not true and a way of them trying to get support for their pash cause. I will give them a clue, cut out the sectarian singing and all the stuff that goes with it and the problem will be solved, if you think I am going to support putting the brakes on something like that then you are kidding yourself. It affects only two sets of supporters and I would not walk the length of myself to do anything for them.

Yesterday as I was walking into Ibrox some ger handed me some sort of leafet about the SNP, it was duely handed back to him and he was told to ram it. There chanting during the game about the SNP made me laugh, I am sure half of them missplent it at that. There point was as usual reduced to nothing when they brust in to seveal versus of their english anthem, over, and over, and over again. None of them even looked embarrassed when the hibs fans burst into a course of flower of scotland (perhaps the highlight of the day for me).

In summary, sort out your own you own house before you start looking around for others to come in and help you. Your antics have caught up with you, you got away with it for long enough.

:top marksAgree or not it's about time somebody stood up to them and they can't stand it.

Moulin Yarns
02-10-2011, 11:46 AM
Here's a thought for Mr Blue, are you willing to stay on here and comment on the songs which are sung at Tynecastle this afternoon?

One side will be singing from your own hymn book while the other will no doubt be defiling your sensitive ears. :greengrin

Cannae wait.

Not even kicked off yet and there has been trouble with the police wading into the HOME stands.

lapsedhibee
03-10-2011, 06:53 AM
And see if this legislation gets passed, you realize you could could end up with a criminal record for that, seriously is it right to go to jail for a song?


No, it's not right. If it were me putting fitba fans in jail I wouldn't be doing it for the singing of songs. It'd be for all the crap that goes on in OF fans' heads, even before they open their gobs. Start with all those who walk about proudly displaying tattoos of 1690 on their dicks/foreheads. Scrub it off or do the next 321 years inside. That's where I'd start.

Barney McGrew
03-10-2011, 07:25 AM
Fans will be jailed for calling someone a fenian yet celtic fans sing paddy mccourt's fenian army and some wear scarves with unrepentant fenian bas@@rd, so is the word fenian banned or is it only banned for some.

That's a fair point, as are many of the others you make.

The bit that let's you and your fellow OF fans down when you start bleating about freedom of expression is that you'll fight tooth and nail to be allowed to sing the songs that you want, while also doing the same thing to stop the other half singing the songs they want to sing.

One thing though, and this is the part that always gets me - what relevance is there to singing songs about a camp dutchman on a white horse from three hundred years ago or a potato crop failing in Ireland in the 1800's to a twenty first century scottish football game?

poolman
03-10-2011, 09:31 AM
Ignore the fact that you may have views on Rangers fans:

On September 27th 2011, The Union Bears and The Blue Order held a protest at Ibrox Stadium in the opening ten minutes of the match against against Kilmarnock. The protest consisted of anti-SNP chanting and the unfurling of 3 banners namely;

"Undefinable Laws Against Supporters"
"SNP Weak On Criminals - Tough on Fans"
"Football Fans Not Criminals"

The protest was not challenged by the police and passed peacefully, with other sections of the Rangers support showing unity with the message of the protest.

For clarity, there are several reasons why we feel we must make a stand upon this issue. We are protesting against the implementation on the 'Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill' as proposed by the current SNP government. This bill discriminates against football fans, singling out a demographic of the population for specific laws. The implementation of the bill means that almost any football supporter, whether you be vocal in support of your team or not, could be subject to arrest, without significant police evidence of any actual offence caused.

The criminalisation of football supporters threatens the game which we all love. Supporters attending a football match will now be met with fear of arrest, losing your job and being named in newspapers despite having not had your court case heard.

The Union Bears and The Blue Order would like to make it clear we are against Sectarianism and Racism in all forms. We feel current legislation covers offences of these matters and further legislation is not necessary nor required. We feel this action is being used for political gain, and being supported by police officers in order to preserve their level of responsibility and therefore preserve their level of funding in what is economically challenging times.

We have all seen that our supporters are subject to unnecessary harassment from police officers and we have and will continue to work with the Rangers Supporters working group on resolving these matters.

In a completely separate incident tonight, around 100 supporters in the BF1 section walked out in protest at the heavy handed stewarding and policing which took place within the section at the match. The groups have issued a complaint to the police and the club and this will be dealt with in due course. We would like to thank the rest of the Rangers support for the support shown towards the group regarding this matter.

Astonishingly the whole reason for the stewards getting involved was due to a young supporter in the section having a water bottle in the ground. One which he had cleared with another steward before entering and was told it wouldn't be a problem.

Among the incidents was also the situation where mounted Police outside the stadium charged at young supporters including one who was disabled. He was told by the mounted officers to run.

We will be taking further protest action in forthcoming matches, and would urge you all to stand with us as we fight the injustice against the supporters of Rangers Football Club. We will issue another statement prior to the game on Saturday, which will detail how we wish to have your support.

Supporting Your Team Is not a Crime.



Blimey, I thought I'd logged on to follow follow by mistake there


For God's sake, "FIGHT AGAINST THE INJUSTICE AGAINST THE SUPPORTERS OF RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB"

I'm speechless :bitchy:

mickki40
03-10-2011, 09:41 AM
It is regrettable that in all this shennanigans, some innocent fans will be caught in the middle of it all. Having been to Ibrox Last Saturday and policed to draconian ends by stewards and police alike, It is only a matter of time before numbers will fall again. I will definately not be travelling to Ibrox again. Sit down, do not stand. Treated like a kid. I am visiting each ground this season and will make my mind up whether they deserve my hard earned Cash in future. Dundee United is a good example of how to be draconian in stewarding. This is the last season I will ever travel to them as well. The policing of football fans in Scotland will be like the 80s England. Random folks dragged out of the crowds and convicted on very shaky...if any, evidence at all. I can't wait for all this to be reported in the media, then to ask any person who was arrested what really happened. This smacks of people purely making political capital. If you want to arrest people for Bigoted / Sectarian chants I suggest you go to Glasgow and attend any old firm game. You just will not have the manpower or Balls to do it. If there is any person on here who was arrested as a result of the Dawn Raids, It will be nice if you could post a piece about what you were actually doing and not what the media is telling us what you were doing. GGTTH

hibs0666
03-10-2011, 09:58 AM
Songs- only one song on the banned list is billyboys the rest are not banned as long as the add ons are not sung, tbf we don't hum the billy boys we sing a song for edu to that tune, and why is billyboys banned for rangers fans yet other teams can sing it, if rangers fans changed the word fenian to celtic that should be ok, if not then everyone should be banned from singing it.




Are you arguing that Rangers supporters should be allowed to continue behaving in as they like in the same fashion as in the past? If yes then that is clearly unacceptable thankfully.

If not, what do you see as the best way forward to eliminate (aye right) sectarian attitudes and behaviours at Rangers?

Delboy4
03-10-2011, 10:24 AM
If you think your treated unfairly try sitting in the away section at Ibrox,

:agree::top marks

On saturday, the stewards and the Police were waiting to pounce on us if we stood up!

I asked di polis why the Rangers fans away in the other corner were allowed to stand and sing? He said, "I know, its a *****in disgrace, they told us THEY WILL NOT SIT DOWN!" Meez thinks the police are scared to act when there are a couple of hundred HUNS...(is that allowed) standing. He also said that 5 bears were chucked out to the right of us behind the goals, they were went berserk and ran round to the main stand to complain because the lot in the corner were giving it big chants and hadn't sat down all game!

In my opinion they bring it upon themselves because they are morons, animals, thick as sh*t in the neck of a bottle, brainwashed weegie bar stewards (Is that allowed?) As I didn't call them HUNS...:wink:

I'm so so glad I was brought up a Hibby by my Dad AND didn't PICK MY TEAM for silverware.

GGTTH

:flag:

superfurryhibby
03-10-2011, 12:08 PM
Huns- as a laddie and avid Victor comic reader, I recall that the German soldiers of WW1 were usually referred to as the "Hun". I have always assumed that the Germanic origins of the current Royal family and the Rangers fans love of them ws the reason they are commonly know as "Huns". There appears to be no religious content attached to this term.

Fenians-As a few have pointed out, Irish Republicans from the 19th century appropriated this term. It has it's origins much much earlier in Irish history with a semi legendary war band know as the Fianna. Interestingly, the Fianna themselves would have been sectarian in their origins as historians believe that the early historic Irish tribal organisation was caste based, with lineage being the main determinant of one's place in the social order.

It's a complex question. As a teenager in the 1970's I would admit that I loved singing songs which are no longer heard at Easter Road, The Merry Ploughboy" and more explicitly anti Orange ditties. I was young and a bit naive but by no means sectarian. Seperating religion, football, tribal emnity, winding up the opposition etc is a minefield. There are still serious consequences of football based religious division in Scotland and it's right that questions are being asked. I do think that government has to dig a wee bit deeper though, perhaps looking at why the state funds an educational system which promotes one form of religious belief. In that respect football seems like a soft target
.

blueisthecolour
03-10-2011, 09:58 PM
That's a fair point, as are many of the others you make.

The bit that let's you and your fellow OF fans down when you start bleating about freedom of expression is that you'll fight tooth and nail to be allowed to sing the songs that you want, while also doing the same thing to stop the other half singing the songs they want to sing.

One thing though, and this is the part that always gets me - what relevance is there to singing songs about a camp dutchman on a white horse from three hundred years ago or a potato crop failing in Ireland in the 1800's to a twenty first century scottish football game?

I think the mix up here is people are upset that some are being pulled for some songs and some get away with some songs, the best thing that could happen is there is a list of banned songs then there is no argument for saying I didn't know it wasn't allowed, it would help everyone, for instance hugh keevins says on the radio you must be daft if you don't know what is allowed and what isn't, when someone called in to ask him to name the banned songs he bottles it to mention any for the reason he doesn't know, everyone mentions the list of banned songs at ibrox when in fact there is no list, Banned song- Billy boys and no add ons to other songs.

blueisthecolour
03-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Are you arguing that Rangers supporters should be allowed to continue behaving in as they like in the same fashion as in the past? If yes then that is clearly unacceptable thankfully.

If not, what do you see as the best way forward to eliminate (aye right) sectarian attitudes and behaviours at Rangers?

What im saying is if billy boys is banned for one it's banned for all or everyone can sing it if the offensive word is dropped.

I have been going to Ibrox for over 25 yrs ( i won't give away my age though) and I know you might not believe me when I say this but sectarian issues over these years has decreased dramatically, it's not gone but we are going in the right direction.

I really don't know what more Rangers can do as a club, they have held out notices, tannoy annocements, banned fans ect.

blueisthecolour
03-10-2011, 10:14 PM
]Huns- as a laddie and avid Victor comic reader, I recall that the German soldiers of WW1 were usually referred to as the "Hun". I have always assumed that the Germanic origins of the current Royal family and the Rangers fans love of them ws the reason they are commonly know as "Huns". There appears to be no religious content attached to this term.
[/B]
Fenians-As a few have pointed out, Irish Republicans from the 19th century appropriated this term. It has it's origins much much earlier in Irish history with a semi legendary war band know as the Fianna. Interestingly, the Fianna themselves would have been sectarian in their origins as historians believe that the early historic Irish tribal organisation was caste based, with lineage being the main determinant of one's place in the social order.

It's a complex question. As a teenager in the 1970's I would admit that I loved singing songs which are no longer heard at Easter Road, The Merry Ploughboy" and more explicitly anti Orange ditties. I was young and a bit naive but by no means sectarian. Seperating religion, football, tribal emnity, winding up the opposition etc is a minefield. There are still serious consequences of football based religious division in Scotland and it's right that questions are being asked. I do think that government has to dig a wee bit deeper though, perhaps looking at why the state funds an educational system which promotes one form of religious belief. In that respect football seems like a soft target
.

Not want to repeat myself all the time but how do you explain killie being the Ayrshire huns?

hibs0666
03-10-2011, 10:15 PM
What im saying is if billy boys is banned for one it's banned for all or everyone can sing it if the offensive word is dropped.

I have been going to Ibrox for over 25 yrs ( i won't give away my age though) and I know you might not believe me when I say this but sectarian issues over these years has decreased dramatically, it's not gone but we are going in the right direction.

I really don't know what more Rangers can do as a club, they have held out notices, tannoy annocements, banned fans ect.

It's still there, alive and kicking. For example, I walked back from Ibrox via the bridge at the BBC and, true to form, the was twenty or so young huns giving it laldy about fenian bastewards. It will never disappear because it is an intrinsic aspect of the club's DNA.

The day I see the flag of the republic flying over Ibrox is the day that I believe that rangers FC is taking the sectarian issue seriously.

blueisthecolour
03-10-2011, 10:19 PM
[QUOTE=Delboy4;2936916]:agree::top marks

On saturday, the stewards and the Police were waiting to pounce on us if we stood up!

I asked di polis why the Rangers fans away in the other corner were allowed to stand and sing? He said, "I know, its a *****in disgrace, they told us THEY WILL NOT SIT DOWN!" Meez thinks the police are scared to act when there are a couple of hundred HUNS...(is that allowed) standing. He also said that 5 bears were chucked out to the right of us behind the goals, they were went berserk and ran round to the main stand to complain because the lot in the corner were giving it big chants and hadn't sat down all game!

In my opinion they bring it upon themselves because they are morons, animals, thick as sh*t in the neck of a bottle, brainwashed weegie bar stewards (Is that allowed?) As I didn't call them HUNS...:wink:

I'm so so glad I was brought up a Hibby by my Dad AND didn't PICK MY TEAM for silverware.


Did this happen to you on the way in?

Each entrance to the Broomloan Road Stand had 5 stewards and 4 police officers. Certain group members were subject to a full body search 4 times, by 4 separate officers before being allowed entry to the stadium. No homemade banners or flags were permitted entry to the stadium, including the Union Bears group banner.

On entry to the stadium, the BF1 section had 8 police officers along the top row, stewards positioned down both aisles, and 4 police officers and numerous stewards facing the section from trackside. In total, our section counted at one point a total of 26 police and stewards around the section.

Kato
03-10-2011, 10:20 PM
billy boys


How does that one go?

No cut and pasting.

Jonnyboy
03-10-2011, 10:24 PM
Not want to repeat myself all the time but how do you explain killie being the Ayrshire huns?

I suspect it's because they sing "Hullo, Hullo we are the Killie Boys" and the fact that they don't seem to have the bus fare to Glasgow :wink:

I see you're calling for a definitive list of songs that should be banned. If and it's a big if such a list were produced I can foresee two outcomes.

One - there would be a huge outcry with each of the named songs being defended with statements like "but we've changed the words to make it acceptable" when in fact a significant number of fans would just sing the old words anyway.

Two - a new batch of offensive and sectarian songs would be created and sung which would mean an updated list which would lead to a new batch of offensive and sectarian songs which would mean an updated list which would ...... well I'm sure you get the picture.

FWIW I was at Ibrox last Saturday with my 17 year old nephew. I told him that when I was his age I sang football songs and not some of the bile that can be heard at most grounds these days (and I include ER). Yes Hibs fans used to sing pro IRA songs but hey we grew out of it and I can't see why the OF fans can't do that too

Kato
03-10-2011, 10:30 PM
Two - a new batch of offensive and sectarian songs would be created and sung which would mean an updated list which would lead to a new batch of offensive and sectarian songs which would mean an updated list which would ...... well I'm sure you get the picture.

That might happen. If it does it'll just be another totally absurd thing to add to the list of totally absurd things that besets this country.

blueisthecolour
03-10-2011, 10:52 PM
I suspect it's because they sing "Hullo, Hullo we are the Killie Boys" and the fact that they don't seem to have the bus fare to Glasgow :wink:

I see you're calling for a definitive list of songs that should be banned. If and it's a big if such a list were produced I can foresee two outcomes.

At least if the lists was there people might not like it but they would know the consequences, with no list I would suggest any good lawyer could get anyone off if charged with singing songs.

One - there would be a huge outcry with each of the named songs being defended with statements like "but we've changed the words to make it acceptable" when in fact a significant number of fans would just sing the old words anyway.

Two - a new batch of offensive and sectarian songs would be created and sung which would mean an updated list which would lead to a new batch of offensive and sectarian songs which would mean an updated list which would ...... well I'm sure you get the picture.

FWIW I was at Ibrox last Saturday with my 17 year old nephew. I told him that when I was his age I sang football songs and not some of the bile that can be heard at most grounds these days (and I include ER). Yes Hibs fans used to sing pro IRA songs but hey we grew out of it and I can't see why the OF fans can't do that too

Going by this I assume you have been going to football for many years, would you agree although not completely eradicated improvements have been made over the years with the Rangers support?

Jonnyboy
03-10-2011, 11:02 PM
[/B]

Going by this I assume you have been going to football for many years, would you agree although not completely eradicated improvements have been made over the years with the Rangers support?

Yip I'm in my sixth decade of watching Hibs. Improvements .... hmmm. Well there's not so much stoning of supporters bus windows so that's a plus :wink:

As to the singing I think the problem lies within this conundrum. It is often and possibly correctly stated that it is only a minority of fans that sing the sectarian types of song. At Ibrox or Parkhead the minority could number 20,000 so that's one helluva ongoing problem. At ER when Rangers (and Celtic for that matter) fans are in the South Stand it is obvious that just about every one of them joins in with these songs so in the case of ER it is the majority not the minority.

The conundrum is ......... how do you stop these fans singing these songs when at home there is a significant minority and when away there is a significant majority. My guess is that the vast majority who visit ER will be part of the 20,000 'minority' mentioned earlier. I think I'm right in saying that tickets for the South Stand at ER will be sold to Rangers/Celtic fans but only if they give their names and addresses when doing so. If that's the case then RFC and CFC should warn these fans that if any complaint re sectarian singing is received they will no longer be allowed to purchase tickets for away games. Edit: self policing would be the order of the day

As an aside I don't think RFC or CFC help themselves when the music they play at the respective grounds gives the fans the opportunity to put their own words to it. At Ibrox it's sort of flutey :wink: and at Parkhead it's dressed up as Irish folk music.

mickki40
04-10-2011, 03:31 AM
Yip I'm in my sixth decade of watching Hibs. Improvements .... hmmm. Well there's not so much stoning of supporters bus windows so that's a plus :wink:

As to the singing I think the problem lies within this conundrum. It is often and possibly correctly stated that it is only a minority of fans that sing the sectarian types of song. At Ibrox or Parkhead the minority could number 20,000 so that's one helluva ongoing problem. At ER when Rangers (and Celtic for that matter) fans are in the South Stand it is obvious that just about every one of them joins in with these songs so in the case of ER it is the majority not the minority.

The conundrum is ......... how do you stop these fans singing these songs when at home there is a significant minority and when away there is a significant majority. My guess is that the vast majority who visit ER will be part of the 20,000 'minority' mentioned earlier. I think I'm right in saying that tickets for the South Stand at ER will be sold to Rangers/Celtic fans but only if they give their names and addresses when doing so. If that's the case then RFC and CFC should warn these fans that if any complaint re sectarian singing is received they will no longer be allowed to purchase tickets for away games. Edit: self policing would be the order of the day

As an aside I don't think RFC or CFC help themselves when the music they play at the respective grounds gives the fans the opportunity to put their own words to it. At Ibrox it's sort of flutey :wink: and at Parkhead it's dressed up as Irish folk music.

It's not even dressed up at Parkhead...How about the Wolfe Tones video of them inside Celtics ground recording the song line " ooh ahh up the RA" Celtic allowed it. They do nothing to eradicate this Bile.

Barney McGrew
04-10-2011, 06:21 AM
I think the mix up here is people are upset that some are being pulled for some songs and some get away with some songs, the best thing that could happen is there is a list of banned songs then there is no argument for saying I didn't know it wasn't allowed, it would help everyone, for instance hugh keevins says on the radio you must be daft if you don't know what is allowed and what isn't, when someone called in to ask him to name the banned songs he bottles it to mention any for the reason he doesn't know, everyone mentions the list of banned songs at ibrox when in fact there is no list, Banned song- Billy boys and no add ons to other songs.

There's no mix up at all. The whole methodology of the OF is for one side to defend what they do wrong by saying the other side are worse.

I see you conveniently forgot to answer the second part of that post so I'll try again -

What relevance is there to singing songs about a camp dutchman on a white horse from three hundred years ago or a potato crop failing in Ireland in the 1800's to a twenty first century scottish football game?

blueisthecolour
04-10-2011, 09:18 AM
There's no mix up at all. The whole methodology of the OF is for one side to defend what they do wrong by saying the other side are worse.

You don't need to tell me a way to defend actions is they are worse than us, im a believer in never mind them deal with ourselfs but it does frustrate me when all are not treated the same way. Either have one rule that ALL need to go by or don't have the rule.
I see you conveniently forgot to answer the second part of that post so I'll try again -

What relevance is there to singing songs about a camp dutchman on a white horse from three hundred years ago or a potato crop failing in Ireland in the 1800's to a twenty first century scottish football game?

No idea, you would need to ask that to those who do it, Im one who loves an atmosphere at football, Im selective in what I sing, I have nothing against anyone of different religions, Im from a mixed religion family, I would love nothing more to go to a game and hear Rangers songs being belted out for 90 mins, I love how penny arcade gets the fans going it's a catchy fun song but then again it has nothing to do with football.

Speedway
04-10-2011, 01:00 PM
Hoey said he thought that a better word list and a smarter program could get to ten times his 540-word palindrome, using only noun phrases with indefinite articles. I'm pretty sure that will never happen. The problem is a dirth of "a"s. According to Hoey's rules, every phrase must start with the letter "a". That means that either the rest of the word must be an exact reverse of another word (and we know there are 1100 of these) or the phrase must have another "a" in it somewhere, and it must be matched by two or more other phrases. Phrases such as "a man", "a plan" and "a canal" work well because they contain multiple "a"s. Now consider a phrase such as "a biologist". If that appears in the palindrome, then somewhere else the letters "tsigoloib" must appear. But note that those letters must all appear in one word/phrase, because there is no "a", and we only get word boundries at "a"s. And of course, there is no single word that contain those letters. In general, take a word (such as "an asparagus" or "a biologist"), split it into components around the "a"s (yielding ["n", "sp", "r", "gus"] and ["biologist"]). Collect the set of all such segments, from all the phrases in the dictionary. Now go back through the dictionary, and for each word, see if the reverse of each of its components is in this set. So "an asparagus" is good, because its reversed components all appear in the set: "n" appears in many places (including "an asparagus" itself), "ps" appears as a component in "a psalm", "r" appears in many places (such as "a karat"), and "sug" appears in "a sugar". On the other hand, "a biologist" is no good, because the component "tsigoloib" does not appear.

lapsedhibee
04-10-2011, 07:52 PM
Hoey said he thought that a better word list and a smarter program could get to ten times his 540-word palindrome, using only noun phrases with indefinite articles. I'm pretty sure that will never happen. The problem is a dirth of "a"s. According to Hoey's rules, every phrase must start with the letter "a". That means that either the rest of the word must be an exact reverse of another word (and we know there are 1100 of these) or the phrase must have another "a" in it somewhere, and it must be matched by two or more other phrases. Phrases such as "a man", "a plan" and "a canal" work well because they contain multiple "a"s. Now consider a phrase such as "a biologist". If that appears in the palindrome, then somewhere else the letters "tsigoloib" must appear. But note that those letters must all appear in one word/phrase, because there is no "a", and we only get word boundries at "a"s. And of course, there is no single word that contain those letters. In general, take a word (such as "an asparagus" or "a biologist"), split it into components around the "a"s (yielding ["n", "sp", "r", "gus"] and ["biologist"]). Collect the set of all such segments, from all the phrases in the dictionary. Now go back through the dictionary, and for each word, see if the reverse of each of its components is in this set. So "an asparagus" is good, because its reversed components all appear in the set: "n" appears in many places (including "an asparagus" itself), "ps" appears as a component in "a psalm", "r" appears in many places (such as "a karat"), and "sug" appears in "a sugar". On the other hand, "a biologist" is no good, because the component "tsigoloib" does not appear.

My thoughts exactly :agree:

edinburghhibee
05-10-2011, 04:37 AM
PS - one of the funniest moments in my years of following Hibs came courtesy of one of your guys with a tattoo of a lady type man with a wig on a prancing horse and 1690 written on his arm forever. Mid 80's we had drawn 1-1 with you at Ibrox and once I wiped the spit of myself I went for a few beers in the Wee Howf in Paisley.

Had a pretty good bit of banter with yer man but he was very keen on emphasising the "historical" side. Inevitably discussions centred around his all too visible tat - He simply would not accept my take on history that the Boyne was a battle on Irish Soil, preferring to see it as marking they day my "lot" were driven out of Scotland for good - I am an agnostic atheist with a protestant background if I had to pick a religious link but what it had to do with why I support who I support.........................?

I had a strange experience when I was at college at Motherwell, I was in a class mostly full of rangers and celtic fans but there was a livi fan in my class too. Anyway we passed our course at the college and decided that we were going to go out for beers to party. It was getting on in the night and everyone was getting drunk when one of the gers fans said to me "you know something your alright for a catholic"

I couldn't understand were he had gotten this from but the other rangers fans agreed, the celtic fans were backing me up until i told them i wasn't a catholic and that i didn't believe in any religion both the rangers and celtic fans in my class said they thought I was catholic because I was a hibs fan, ever since that night i've never bothered about the bile that is spouted from either side there just as bad as each other. Both sides of the OF need to grow up and move on from this rubbish before another generation is brainwashed into thinking this is normal.