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Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 06:07 PM
Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)

From there, Mixu came in and had to try and ship out (at a price) poor players and try and bring in good players. Mixu's signings were hit and miss as well. Riordan and Murray were good additions, Zurabi, not so good.

Yogi came in and still had some players left from the Collins era, as well as some hangers-on from Mixu's time. Again, signings were hit and miss. Stokes was excellent but allegedly disruptive, Miller had a great pedigree but we only saw the quality in glimpses, McBride started impressively but went downhill, Nish was already at the club but was honking under Yogi, and his last two big signings, EDG and Hart were disasters.

Calderwood needs to sort out the team that he's built and do it quickly even to get us back to where we were in 2007. If and when we get there, the board are putting in place things that will ultimately take us on a level if they go to plan. In the short term though, CC has to get it right.

Dashing Bob S
08-09-2011, 06:10 PM
One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)

From there, Mixu came in and had to try and ship out (at a price) poor players and try and bring in good players. Mixu's signings were hit and miss as well. Riordan and Murray were good additions, Zurabi, not so good.

Yogi came in and still had some players left from the Collins era, as well as some hangers-on from Mixu's time. Again, signings were hit and miss. Stokes was excellent but allegedly disruptive, Miller had a great pedigree but we only saw the quality in glimpses, McBride started impressively but went downhill, Nish was already at the club but was honking under Yogi, and his last two big signings, EDG and Hart were disasters.

Calderwood needs to sort out the team that he's built and do it quickly even to get us back to where we were in 2007. If and when we get there, the board are putting in place things that will ultimately take us on a level if they go to plan. In the short term though, CC has to get it right.

I think he's passed the short-term and he most emphatically hasn't got it right.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 06:21 PM
One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)

From there, Mixu came in and had to try and ship out (at a price) poor players and try and bring in good players. Mixu's signings were hit and miss as well. Riordan and Murray were good additions, Zurabi, not so good.

Yogi came in and still had some players left from the Collins era, as well as some hangers-on from Mixu's time. Again, signings were hit and miss. Stokes was excellent but allegedly disruptive, Miller had a great pedigree but we only saw the quality in glimpses, McBride started impressively but went downhill, Nish was already at the club but was honking under Yogi, and his last two big signings, EDG and Hart were disasters.

Calderwood needs to sort out the team that he's built and do it quickly even to get us back to where we were in 2007. If and when we get there, the board are putting in place things that will ultimately take us on a level if they go to plan. In the short term though, CC has to get it right.


I see what you are saying but again we are looking at hopefully he will get it right, IMO it is passed that point, I do not see why or how we can take a chance with the current board any longer there is a massive turnaround of squad with these deals and thats the last 2 managers whom are operating this way, are they being told this is what needs done? either way it imo is destined to fail stability on the park is a long way off as come summer we are looking at more key players out of contract.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 06:22 PM
I think he's passed the short-term and he most emphatically hasn't got it right.

I'm talking about the immediate future, Bob.

He hasn't had the luxury of having the players brought in to improve the club being available for selection until now. For me, the time to seriously dissect what Calderwood brings to the table is now.

We cannot see the changes that are happening in the background at Hibs, of which there are many. Calderwood has talked about rebuilding the club, root and branch. The board seem keen on this idea as well and have re-structured their own roles and responsibilities along with other roles throughout the club.

A wholesale change to the culture and set up of any organisation takes time to take shape, what CC must understand (and what Scott Lindsay has alluded to in his interview) is that no matter how significant the changes in the background are, the foundations have been laid and CC is very much expected to deliver results now while that rebuilding goes on. It is not a case where everyone can turn a blind eye to the pish we've watched while things get laid down to give us a top 6 team in a couple of years. We were a top 6 team the season before last. Calderwood is expected to do better than stand still with this team. He is expected to improve us.

I would be comfortable arguing a case that given the mess he inherited (and it was, by all accounts, a mess) that the time leading up to now has very much been the short term, but the closing of the transfer window and the conclusion of our business in it, is a very significant signal of that period ending.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 06:28 PM
I'm talking about the immediate future, Bob.

He hasn't had the luxury of having the players brought in to improve the club being available for selection until now. For me, the time to seriously dissect what Calderwood brings to the table is now.

We cannot see the changes that are happening in the background at Hibs, of which there are many. Calderwood has talked about rebuilding the club, root and branch. The board seem keen on this idea as well and have re-structured their own roles and responsibilities along with other roles throughout the club.

A wholesale change to the culture and set up of any organisation takes time to take shape, what CC must understand (and what Scott Lindsay has alluded to in his interview) is that no matter how significant the changes in the background are, the foundations have been laid and CC is very much expected to deliver results now while that rebuilding goes on. It is not a case where everyone can turn a blind eye to the pish we've watched while things get laid down to give us a top 6 team in a couple of years. We were a top 6 team the season before last. Calderwood is expected to do better than stand still with this team. He is expected to improve us.

I would be comfortable arguing a case that given the mess he inherited (and it was, by all accounts, a mess) that the time leading up to now has very much been the short term, but the closing of the transfer window and the conclusion of our business in it, is a very significant signal of that period ending.


That is my point a mess sanctioned by this regime a mess we are still recovering from many think and I am included that a new mess is now in making. They have overseen to many errors lots of clubs get over a bad manager a hell of a lot quicker than this. In 8mths we are going to probably rebuilding another team it is way past the time to be sorted, I do not see the good in a new team year on year.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 06:29 PM
I see what you are saying but again we are looking at hopefully he will get it right, IMO it is passed that point, I do not see why or how we can take a chance with the current board any longer there is a massive turnaround of squad with these deals and thats the last 2 managers whom are operating this way, are they being told this is what needs done? either way it imo is destined to fail stability on the park is a long way off as come summer we are looking at more key players out of contract.

As alluded to in my post above, the issues stem (IMHO) from some very, very poor player acquisition decisions during Collins' reign that hindered the club's progress for some time to come. Both Mixu and Yogi had Collins' signings at the club that they needed to move on, all of whom were a drain on the available resources to the respective managers in terms on what they had to spend on the team.

I think CC has brought some players in on longer contracts and others that he sees as medium term fixes while he identifies more suitable players to fill the roles. I fully expect to see some of the players on the one year deals being offered extensions to their contracts if and when they prove their worth to the first team, and I think CC will over time have a nucleus of players that he builds the team around.

The time to panic is not now, although it may appear to be. We panicked (IMHO) with Mixu, and with Yogi, and so the rebuilding process has never really passed a fairly embryonic stage. That in itself is an issue - we cannot always be in transition, we cannot forever be starting to rebuild. We need to see it through and that might mean putting up with some harder times while we get there. All we have is hope that the worst times are behind us and that CC has brought in players good enough, and that he himself is good enough, to take us onto better times now.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 06:38 PM
That is my point a mess sanctioned by this regime a mess we are still recovering from many think and I am included that a new mess is now in making. They have overseen to many errors lots of clubs get over a bad manager a hell of a lot quicker than this. In 8mths we are going to probably rebuilding another team it is way past the time to be sorted, I do not see the good in a new team year on year.

I don't see that the board did a helluva lot wrong. Any appointment that any football club makes with a manager is a risk. You look at clubs that have hired the very best and spent the most, and they under-achieve.

I can see that things have not worked as everyone would have liked, especially the Board and the fans, but really you look at the key strategic decisions (like the stand and the training centre) that the board have made, ones with definite and guaranteed outcomes, and they've done well for the long term future of the club.

Where they haven't done so well is when they've spent on things with an uncertain outcome. Players (out of the board's hands, IMHO - they rely on the football people - the scouts, managers, and coaches to identify the players, they just facilitate the signings, and that's exactly how it should be.), and managers have been hit and miss.

Let's not forget that since Mowbray things have not been without the positives - the board have overseen a cup win and European qualification in the years since then, as well as consecutive top 6 finishes up until last season, and this done in the context of keeping the club's head above water in very tough economic times and growing the club. So it's not all bad, though many would like to paint it so.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 06:39 PM
As alluded to in my post above, the issues stem (IMHO) from some very, very poor player acquisition decisions during Collins' reign that hindered the club's progress for some time to come. Both Mixu and Yogi had Collins' signings at the club that they needed to move on, all of whom were a drain on the available resources to the respective managers in terms on what they had to spend on the team.

I think CC has brought some players in on longer contracts and others that he sees as medium term fixes while he identifies more suitable players to fill the roles. I fully expect to see some of the players on the one year deals being offered extensions to their contracts if and when they prove their worth to the first team, and I think CC will over time have a nucleus of players that he builds the team around.

The time to panic is not now, although it may appear to be. We panicked (IMHO) with Mixu, and with Yogi, and so the rebuilding process has never really passed a fairly embryonic stage. That in itself is an issue - we cannot always be in transition, we cannot forever be starting to rebuild. We need to see it through and that might mean putting up with some harder times while we get there. All we have is hope that the worst times are behind us and that CC has brought in players good enough, and that he himself is good enough, to take us onto better times now.

I will have to disagree with you Matty, I cannot see that the bad signings JC made could cause so much problems for the next 2 managers, JC will have had players that Mowbray left, Mixu had to deal with players JC left, Yogi had to deal with players Mixu had left all part of the normal process and I do not think that the players JC left have put us in a position we are now, not by any stretch of my imagination anyway. Mixu and Yogi idependantly bought rubbish in and then started this loans and 1yr stuff. Sorry Matty but although JC had some crap players that is no way an excuse for todays situation, no excuse or reason at all.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 06:45 PM
I will have to disagree with you Matty, I cannot see that the bad signings JC made could cause so much problems for the next 2 managers, JC will have had players that Mowbray left, Mixu had to deal with players JC left, Yogi had to deal with players Mixu had left all part of the normal process and I do not think that the players JC left have put us in a position we are now, not by any stretch of my imagination anyway. Mixu and Yogi idependantly bought rubbish in and then started this loans and 1yr stuff. Sorry Matty but although JC had somr crap players that is no way an excuse for todays situation, no excuse or reason at all.

I disagree. It comes down to maths - Collins brought in players that cost x amount over y number of years. Where y was a number greater than the tenure of Collins, then x impacted the budget of Mixu. Where y was a number greater than Collins and Mixu's tenure, then x impacted on Mixu's budget as well.

The difference between Mowbray inheriting bad players and Mixu inheriting bad players is in the volume of players involved, and their respective abilities to either improve the players, or find better ones within our budget. Mowbray was excellent at it, but the same couldn't be said for Mixu and Yogi.

We are now at the point where it can't be used as an excuse for Calderwood, though, as he's rebuilt the squad. I would reckon that the only player that he still has on the books that he'd probably rather not have, is Hart. One player, though, isn't that big a deal. When it's upwards of 4 or 5, then it has a significant impact.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 07:00 PM
I disagree. It comes down to maths - Collins brought in players that cost x amount over y number of years. Where y was a number greater than the tenure of Collins, then x impacted the budget of Mixu. Where y was a number greater than Collins and Mixu's tenure, then x impacted on Mixu's budget as well.

The difference between Mowbray inheriting bad players and Mixu inheriting bad players is in the volume of players involved, and their respective abilities to either improve the players, or find better ones within our budget. Mowbray was excellent at it, but the same couldn't be said for Mixu and Yogi.

We are now at the point where it can't be used as an excuse for Calderwood, though, as he's rebuilt the squad. I would reckon that the only player that he still has on the books that he'd probably rather not have, is Hart. One player, though, isn't that big a deal. When it's upwards of 4 or 5, then it has a significant impact.

I think you are overstating the amount of damage JC bad signings cost us and you think I will be understating, I just cannot see it at all Matty. Things cannot have been that bad if Mixu had the room to bring in Riordan. IMO this has nothing to do with JC he made bad signings like every manager.

muzzhfc
08-09-2011, 07:05 PM
JC signed no one of note to replace the players that were sold. if we brought up a list of players who he signed, then most of them would have "pish" next to their name by one person or another.
Mixu was similar, except Murray and Deeks, however, they werent his signings as they already played for the club and we knew what they were about, he just had the stones to go out and try and sign them. and it worked. kind of.
Hughes signed some decent players, Stokes, Miller, Stack, Brown but signed some awful ones too.
CC has signed some decent players, but some of them have been injured, we have also had some youngsters who have been out of form for various reasons. We had a difficult start to the season, Celtic, ITC (yes we won), the Yams and a couple of bogey teams (mainly st mirren), but with CCs players now coming into fitness we need to relax a bit, get behind the team and support them. I think CC has an eye for player and could do well. if we give him the time. I think one of our main problems for the constant rebuilding is the constant manager changes

matty_f
08-09-2011, 07:16 PM
I think you are overstating the amount of damage JC bad signings cost us and you think I will be understating, I just cannot see it at all Matty. Things cannot have been that bad if Mixu had the room to bring in Riordan. IMO this has nothing to do with JC he made bad signings like every manager.


Mixu's signing of Riordan is exactly why the problem was as big as it was, though. Signing Riordan meant that he had a marquee signing and a player that the fans knew and (sort of!) loved. He was also a good player but he wasn't cheap. That meant that the budget didn't extend to getting good midfielders in, and so we signed players like Joe Keenan. Had Collins left a good squad then Riordan's signing would have had a far greater impact. That budget would have still been there, but rather than being a gem amongst pish, he'd have been coming in to supplement an already good squad.

Instead Mixu ended up with a squad of a few good players surrounded by journeymen and untested players who simply weren't good enough, hence why none of them remain at the club.

You take that into Yogi's tenure, and he had the same issue - getting rid of dross, and he again tried to bring a couple of quality players and a few run of the mill players to make a team, but because the overall quality of the team wasn't there to begin with it soon went to bits.

Calderwood is the first manager in years to have been able to practically wipe the slate clean and start again. His signings will define his time here as much as the pre-season nonsense because they will be the legacy that he leaves.

I think the fact that we have so many one year deals is a direct result of a feeling of money being poorly spent by Collins and his successors having a much further reaching impact than that which could be corrected in a transfer window.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 07:27 PM
Mixu's signing of Riordan is exactly why the problem was as big as it was, though. Signing Riordan meant that he had a marquee signing and a player that the fans knew and (sort of!) loved. He was also a good player but he wasn't cheap. That meant that the budget didn't extend to getting good midfielders in, and so we signed players like Joe Keenan. Had Collins left a good squad then Riordan's signing would have had a far greater impact. That budget would have still been there, but rather than being a gem amongst pish, he'd have been coming in to supplement an already good squad.

Instead Mixu ended up with a squad of a few good players surrounded by journeymen and untested players who simply weren't good enough, hence why none of them remain at the club.

You take that into Yogi's tenure, and he had the same issue - getting rid of dross, and he again tried to bring a couple of quality players and a few run of the mill players to make a team, but because the overall quality of the team wasn't there to begin with it soon went to bits.

Calderwood is the first manager in years to have been able to practically wipe the slate clean and start again. His signings will define his time here as much as the pre-season nonsense because they will be the legacy that he leaves.

I think the fact that we have so many one year deals is a direct result of a feeling of money being poorly spent by Collins and his successors having a much further reaching impact than that which could be corrected in a transfer window.


Well that is the fault of Mixu and board then if they made that decsion is it not? at the end of the day Mixu had better tools to do job than most managers in SPL, Yogi followed suit with Liam Miller and Stokes to show that there was more than enough to do well in SPL, if Mixu had not signed Riordan then Yogi would have had more money also. I cannot blame JC for our mess now, yes he played a part but the following managers had enough going forward to stabilise higher league places. CC has now brought in some players and some of them look ok but some look not so good the same as the last 2 managers.

The failings are due to bad mamagement choices and the way we are bringing in players for short term who have got to 100% hit ground running and many are not. CC has a very poor record thus far and I cannot see how he is in the process any more of wiping the slate clean than Yogi was.

Mixu directly after JC had the strength to buy Riordan, Murray, pay for John Rankin and Colin Nish, so to me showing there was plenty in locker, yes if JC had not bought bad players then Mixu would have had more but he appears to have had more than enough. But I can say if Mowbray hadnt had left his crap players such as Zibi then JC might have had more, and if Bobby Williamson had left crap and if Alex Miller hadnt left crap etc etc Every manager leaves bad decisions behind, Yogi had to fix Mixu's, CC has to fix Yogi's.

Mixu had to fix JC's bad signings but I think was given the tools to do that, Yogi then had to fix Mixu's stuff again going on the calibur of some signings he had the tools, again now we have Garry Oconnor showing there are indeed things available. The only thing consistant over last 5yrs is the board, that is the problem not Alan obrein and Maka.

hibs0666
08-09-2011, 07:40 PM
My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

There have been sweeping changes. Rod Petrie has stepped back from the day-day running of the club and a new top management team is in place. You have what you want.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 07:47 PM
Well that is the fault of Mixu and board then if they made that decsion is it not? at the end of the day Mixu had better tools to do job than most managers in SPL, Yogi followed suit with Liam Miller and Stokes to show that there was more than enough to do well in SPL, if Mixu had not signed Riordan then Yogi would have had more money also. I cannot blame JC for our mess now, yes he played a part but the following managers had enough going forward to stabilise higher league places. CC has now brought in some players and some of them look ok but some look not so good the same as the last 2 managers.

The failings are due to bad mamagement choices and the way we are bringing in players for short term who have got to 100% hit ground running and many are not. CC has a very poor record thus far and I cannot see how he is in the process any more of wiping the slate clean than Yogi was.

The other managers did stabilise higher league placings. When JC left I think we then went on a run that took us down to about 8th IIRC, Mixu got us top 6 that season and again the season after. Yogi got us 4th place in his only full season with us.

Mixu wanted Riordan and knew we could get him, and the board were keen to back him. He knew what the consequences of spending a sizable part of his budget on one or two players were, he no doubt thought that he'd be able to unearth a few players from what was available on the remaining budget. I think he was wrong. Maybe if he'd been given longer (or took longer, as he resigned IIRC) he would have been able to work through the team and build it back up bit by bit.

If you can't see that CC has had a bigger opportunity to clear the squad and start again than Yogi or Mixu had then you're trying not to see it, IMHO.

CC was able to clear out in the region of 15-20 players since coming in, without having to take a huge budgetary hit in paying them off because of a decision taken by Yogi and the board to allow natural attrition of players at the end of last season.

He's also been able to sign 14 players since the January window opened.

I can't deny that CC's record has been poor. It is poor - very poor. However, Albion Hibs pointed out in another thread that folk were calling for the manager to play under 19's ahead of some of the players that CC inherited, such was the perception of their level of terribleness! CC worked with that group of players, brought in players that did enough to secure our SPL status which was very much in doubt at one point, and he's cleared most of the rest out now.

The time to judge CC really comes from Sunday on, IMHO. He's had the clean slate, and he's had a year to sort out whatever cultural issues may have existed and to stamp his own mark on the club. Now that the players he wanted are at the club, are fit and able to play, he has nothing to hide behind and has to start producing performances and results worthy of a club of our standing.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 08:00 PM
There have been sweeping changes. Rod Petrie has stepped back from the day-day running of the club and a new top management team is in place. You have what you want.

He is at club and the new regime is not doing very well, RP needs to have no running at all.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 08:05 PM
He is at club and the new regime is not doing very well, RP needs to have no running at all.

The new regime are tackling things that will not come to fruition overnight, though. The changes are still very recent and strategically I'd be very surprised if the club are at the advanced stages of many, if any of the projects and changes that they will undertake to try and improve the club.

It's massively short-sighted to say that they're not doing very well. Nobody is suggesting that everything is rosy, we're bottom of the league and deservedly so after the points total we've picked up so far, however as mentioned above that's just one aspect of the board's remit, and even the manager whose main responsibility is to have us competing at the other end of the table, only just now has his team available to him after rebuilding what was a shambolic team left to him.

The board have gone about what they needed to do in terms of infrastructure. Like most of us, they're probably sick of talking about it now and want to see that work bear fruit now. That's why they've changed the structure and duties, you have to give time for that change to take effect though.

hibs0666
08-09-2011, 08:06 PM
He is at club and the new regime is not doing very well, RP needs to have no running at all.

You're not getting it - RP is no longer running the club on a day-day basis! I do not see your point in having a go at a new management regime that have been in place for no time at all.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 08:08 PM
The other managers did stabilise higher league placings. When JC left I think we then went on a run that took us down to about 8th IIRC, Mixu got us top 6 that season and again the season after. Yogi got us 4th place in his only full season with us.

Mixu wanted Riordan and knew we could get him, and the board were keen to back him. He knew what the consequences of spending a sizable part of his budget on one or two players were, he no doubt thought that he'd be able to unearth a few players from what was available on the remaining budget. I think he was wrong. Maybe if he'd been given longer (or took longer, as he resigned IIRC) he would have been able to work through the team and build it back up bit by bit.

If you can't see that CC has had a bigger opportunity to clear the squad and start again than Yogi or Mixu had then you're trying not to see it, IMHO.

CC was able to clear out in the region of 15-20 players since coming in, without having to take a huge budgetary hit in paying them off because of a decision taken by Yogi and the board to allow natural attrition of players at the end of last season.

He's also been able to sign 14 players since the January window opened.

I can't deny that CC's record has been poor. It is poor - very poor. However, Albion Hibs pointed out in another thread that folk were calling for the manager to play under 19's ahead of some of the players that CC inherited, such was the perception of their level of terribleness! CC worked with that group of players, brought in players that did enough to secure our SPL status which was very much in doubt at one point, and he's cleared most of the rest out now.

The time to judge CC really comes from Sunday on, IMHO. He's had the clean slate, and he's had a year to sort out whatever cultural issues may have existed and to stamp his own mark on the club. Now that the players he wanted are at the club, are fit and able to play, he has nothing to hide behind and has to start producing performances and results worthy of a club of our standing.

That natural attrition was only acceptable due to the dross that was on way out however we lost 1 or 2 players whom are better than what we have now and the jury is out if the replacements are better. Yogi signed all his players assuming they would work so to have been in a position that the board allowed to have tthe potential to be losing 10+ players whom where playing well was also folly.

Ok it turns out most where no great loss, but if good we would have been kicking ourselves if we couldnt keep them, I assume CC thinks his 1yr deals will be good players so the club have allowed again a manger to have a large part of the squad with the ability to walk, not a good idea IMO.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 08:14 PM
You're not getting it - RP is no longer running the club on a day-day basis! I do not see your point in having a go at a new management regime that have been in place for no time at all.

I think I do get it, who appointed them? So what does RP do then at Hibs? if he does anything he is open to critisism if I see fit, he appointed last 3 managers and if he was involved in the current board positions then I do not think he should be involved in such decsions as he IMO has failed the football side of things.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 08:21 PM
That natural attrition was only acceptable due to the dross that was on way out however we lost 1 or 2 players whom are better than what we have now and the jury is out if the replacements are better. Yogi signed all his players assuming they would work so to have been in a position that the board allowed to have tthe potential to be losing 10+ players whom where playing well was also folly.

Ok it turns out most where no great loss, but if good we would have been kicking ourselves if we couldnt keep them, I assume CC thinks his 1yr deals will be good players so the club have allowed again a manger to have a large part of the squad with the ability to walk, not a good idea IMO.

If the players had been, in CC's opinion, worth keeping then we'd have bent over backwards to keep them. Neither Riordan or Miller (I'm struggling to think who else might come into the bracket of better than what has come into the club) were players that were signed on 1 year deals, both were offered terms in line with what CC valued them and in line with our budget and they chose other options. Fair play to them, that's their prerogative.

Yogi talked about players having to earn new contracts through performing and I am certain that he saw that as a carrot to encourage some to play better than they were, and I think he would have offered contracts to some of those players should he have felt they earned them, again that's fair enough.

He also identified that there were players there not adding value to the club and did not offer new terms to them, knowing fine well they'd be away in the summer.

Calderwood, I think, has taken a similar approach. Some of the players that he knew about before coming to the club have been given longer deals - O'Hanlon, Palsson, Sproule, Thornhill, Sodje (IIRC). Others have to prove their worth - Stack, Galbraith, Stevenson etc, and others will have come on the proviso of it being a one year deal as they think they are capable of playing at a higher level - O'Connor, for example.

All fair enough. I think that if Galbraith does enough between now and the end of the year, he'll sign a new contract, probably on better terms than he's getting just now. Same with Stevenson. And if they're not doing it, then this season will rightly be their last with the club and they walk away with a handshake and our best wishes.

I don't see a huge problem there, so long as the club are on the button when it comes to offering better terms.

down the slope
08-09-2011, 08:29 PM
There have been sweeping changes. Rod Petrie has stepped back from the day-day running of the club and a new top management team is in place. You have what you want.
This is from Wiki
"Petrie resigned from his position as chief executive in April 2008 and was replaced by Scott Lindsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scott_Lindsay&action=edit&redlink=1),[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Petrie#cite_note-23) but has retained his position as chairman. Petrie stated that Lindsay would take over the "day-to-day running of the club", while Petrie would retain control of "executive duties", including the negotiation of player contracts and setting the player budget.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Petrie#cite_note-24) Hibs have continued to break even since then, although this has been due to the sale of players offsetting trading "

If he has nowt to do with the running of the club then why did he issue the statement about Calderwood ?.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 08:30 PM
I think I do get it, who appointed them? So what does RP do then at Hibs? if he does anything he is open to critisism if I see fit, he appointed last 3 managers and if he was involved in the current board positions then I do not think he should be involved in such decsions as he IMO has failed the football side of things.

Has he, though?

We had a bad season last season, no question. Big black mark on everyone there, and no arguments about it from me.
Season before - 4th place finish. If we're considering that a failure now then we're a bit mental.
Season before that - top 6, not a success as such, but not a failure either, IMHO.
Season before that - top 6, see above
Season before that - top 6 and a cup win. Success.

Now, I'm quite likely to have missed a season out there along the way as I'm a bit hard of thinking at times, however all of that has been achieved against a backdrop of keeping the club financially stable, building an excellent training facility, producing youth players for the first team, and completing the stadium.

I'm sure some people will look at that as failure, but I think if they were really honest with themselves they'd see that the above marks a fairly significant achievement which is being overshadowed by a bad season and a bad start to this season.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 08:31 PM
This is from Wiki
"Petrie resigned from his position as chief executive in April 2008 and was replaced by Scott Lindsay (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scott_Lindsay&action=edit&redlink=1),[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Petrie#cite_note-23) but has retained his position as chairman. Petrie stated that Lindsay would take over the "day-to-day running of the club", while Petrie would retain control of "executive duties", including the negotiation of player contracts and setting the player budget.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Petrie#cite_note-24) Hibs have continued to break even since then, although this has been due to the sale of players offsetting trading "

If he has nowt to do with the running of the club then why did he issue the statement about Calderwood ?.

Fans were calling for the chairman to show leadership, and I would have thought such a statement very much came under the remit of "executive duties".

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 08:35 PM
Has he, though?

We had a bad season last season, no question. Big black mark on everyone there, and no arguments about it from me.
Season before - 4th place finish. If we're considering that a failure now then we're a bit mental.
Season before that - top 6, not a success as such, but not a failure either, IMHO.
Season before that - top 6, see above
Season before that - top 6 and a cup win. Success.

Now, I'm quite likely to have missed a season out there along the way as I'm a bit hard of thinking at times, however all of that has been achieved against a backdrop of keeping the club financially stable, building an excellent training facility, producing youth players for the first team, and completing the stadium.

I'm sure some people will look at that as failure, but I think if they were really honest with themselves they'd see that the above marks a fairly significant achievement which is being overshadowed by a bad season and a bad start to this season.

I think that is where we differ, top 6 is not a target or a marker IMO, 4th is, below 4th is failure.

Kaiser1962
08-09-2011, 08:38 PM
I think the squad turnover is not dissimilar to other clubs and is a reflection of the times we are living in when guys like Palsson dictate to the club how long the contract will be. Two of the longest contracts handed out in recent seasons were to EDG and Hart.

I think the responsibilities each board member has are changing dramatically, with Rod taking more of a back seat and could even be about to get off the bus at the next stop, and this is further evidenced by the video statements the club are releasing with Hyland and Lindsay to the fore.

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen.


Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

Saorsa
08-09-2011, 08:46 PM
I think the squad turnover is not dissimilar to other clubs and is a reflection of the times we are living in when guys like Palsson dictate to the club how long the contract will be. Two of the longest contracts handed out in recent seasons were to EDG and Hart.

I think the responsibilities each board member has are changing dramatically, with Rod taking more of a back seat and could even be about to get off the bus at the next stop, and this is further evidenced by the video statements the club are releasing with Hyland and Lindsay to the fore.

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen.As long as he has his 10% I dinnae think his seat will be that far back :wink: nae matter who has what title within the board room.





If he's doing less is he taking less? :hmmm: :greengrin

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 08:49 PM
I think the squad turnover is not dissimilar to other clubs and is a reflection of the times we are living in when guys like Palsson dictate to the club how long the contract will be. Two of the longest contracts handed out in recent seasons were to EDG and Hart.

I think the responsibilities each board member has are changing dramatically, with Rod taking more of a back seat and could even be about to get off the bus at the next stop, and this is further evidenced by the video statements the club are releasing with Hyland and Lindsay to the fore.

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen.

I think it is dissimilar, somebody a few weeks ago said Dundee Utd was same, Dundee Utd had far more players there long term than we do/did. Palsson is ok, not good enough IMO to be dictating contract lengths, I would rather we went for more longer term players although Palsson was 18mths I think which is better.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 08:54 PM
I think that is where we differ, top 6 is not a target or a marker IMO, 4th is, below 4th is failure.

I think if you look at the circumstances in which the top 6 finishes were achieved then you can see that there is a measure of success there.

I don't think it's as black and white as saying 4th is success, 5th or 6th is failure - there is an inbetween and that's what I was saying in my post listing what we'd done over the seasons. I would not class top 6 as a success, but nor is it failure.

Kaiser1962
08-09-2011, 09:08 PM
I think it is dissimilar, somebody a few weeks ago said Dundee Utd was same, Dundee Utd had far more players there long term than we do/did. Palsson is ok, not good enough IMO to be dictating contract lengths, I would rather we went for more longer term players although Palsson was 18mths I think which is better.

Unfortunately neither Hibs nor the SPL are attracting players of any great pedigree and it is very much a players/agents market. They see Hibs as a means to an end.

We do hand out long term deals. Scott is over three years. Spoony signed a five year contract in 2009, Hanlon is contracted till 2016 and Booth till 2015. Other than GOC its probably about right now.

The trick is giving then contracts to the right people.

Kaiser1962
08-09-2011, 09:13 PM
As long as he has his 10% I dinnae think his seat will be that far back :wink: nae matter who has what title within the board room.





If he's doing less is he taking less? :hmmm: :greengrin

Nor should he take a back seat IMO. :tin hat:


I understand his renumeration package has reduced over the past few years but that is between him and the guy who write's the cheques.

down the slope
08-09-2011, 09:20 PM
Nor should he take a back seat IMO. :tin hat:


I understand his renumeration package has reduced over the past few years but that is between him and the guy who write's the cheques.

Aye, we are doing so well !.

Kaiser1962
08-09-2011, 09:26 PM
Aye, we are doing so well !.


Could be worse. :greengrin

nortonhibby
08-09-2011, 09:43 PM
Winning a trophy is something Hibs do not do as often as we would like, bringing through 4 or 5 fantastic players from the youth at roughly the same time again is something that is uncommon.

In 2007 Hibs had both, we had won the cup and although we had sold and always knew we would most of the good players. At the end of the 2007 season we had won the cup and just taken £4m+ for one player what an absolute fantastic building block to go from strength to strength. What the hell has happened?

Hired managers whom maybe didnt work out did they get long enough? that is my problem managers seem to have this albatross of they have 6mths,12mths,18mths etc etc yet the board dont. I woulkd be from 2007 looking at Hibs being 4th more than once and if failed to be right in there but that appears not to be case. We have had different mangers with different players and there has been failure after failure costly failure I may add.

2 things for me are an issue, obviously there has been a problem in getting in managers whom work out and something that the last 2 managers and CC seem to be doing is bringing in players for short term deals this has been very common in last 2-3yrs and it imo is a factor with huge squad changes and no apparent long term aims footballwise.

Our last 3 managers have had an average of about 18mths why do a board whom by their own standards of competing for euro slots which they have done once in 5yrs seem to have no timescale. I think their time has come and gone Hibs could really and should be doing so much better, to finish our last campaign in 10th is nothing short of a disgrace and if things do not turn around quickly then we might be looking at Europe once in 6 and that is a failure in my view.

My view is the managers have failed by having all these short term deals sanctioned IMO this is a massive issue on any team building and we are rife with it again. Time for sweeping changes at the top STF club could and should be doing so much better.

so on your logic Colin has 7 months left:confused:

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 09:51 PM
so on your logic Colin has 7 months left:confused:

How do you work that out?

Saorsa
08-09-2011, 09:52 PM
Nor should he take a back seat IMO. :tin hat:


I understand his renumeration package has reduced over the past few years but that is between him and the guy who write's the cheques.You were the one that suggested he was taking a back seat or getting off the bus. I still think he controls and has final say in everything nae matter what titles anybody else has and I think him having so much control over everything for years (protecting his own interests nae doubt as much as anything else) has been one of the biggest problems at ER road for a long time. We may be some sort of business model and achieved this that and the other off the park but I doubt we'll never amount tae much as a fitba team for as long as he is there. He is the only common denominator in our decline since 2007. I IMO he should leave and take his latest poor manager with him.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 09:56 PM
You were the one that suggested he was taking a back seat or getting off the bus. I still think he controls and has final say in everything nae matter what titles anybody else has and I think him having so much control over everything for years (protecting his own interests nae doubt as much as anything else) has been one of the biggest problems at ER road for a long time. We may be some sort of business model and achieved this that and the other off the park but I doubt we'll never amount tae much as a fitba team for as long as he is there. He is the only common denominator in our decline since 2007. I IMO he should leave and take his latest poor manager with him.

I don't think you've a strong case to say we've declined since 2007. Yogi had a higher league finish than Collins and Mixu so that's an improvement, and we've had a rank season last year but overall the club is stronger now than it was in 2007, It's far too early to write this season off.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 10:00 PM
I don't think you've a strong case to say we've declined since 2007. Yogi had a higher league finish than Collins and Mixu so that's an improvement, and we've had a rank season last year but overall the club is stronger now than it was in 2007, It's far too early to write this season off.

The club is stronger the team though has gone from one shambles to another, 4th once is unacceptable from the building blocks that should have been in place, to have our last league finish as a 10th is just a joke. IMO the team is all over the place.

NAE NOOKIE
08-09-2011, 10:00 PM
Some good points on this thread, for and against our record over the last 4 years.

The point is I think that in that period there has been no forward progress on the pitch at all.

Our record in derby matches would bring a tear to a glass eye. I dont know about the folk who run or play for Hibs, but I for one am getting bloody fed up of watching fkng Yams celebrating at ER twice a season.

We have failed miserably to get to a single cup semi, made all the worse by the fact that the cup draws by and large have ( on paper at least ) been pretty kind to us.

Our attempts to make a dent in Europe have been nothing short of pathetic in the few times we have appeared.

Our record in the top 6 when we have made it is nothing short of shamefull, overshadowed only by our miserable showing in the bottom 6 last season.

this would be bareable if the teams we were up against were richer than us, or had the ability to attract better players. But the truth is that they dont, and in view of this there really is no excuse.

The Yams do spend more money, but is it not the case that before every derby you hear Hibs players saying " aye, this is a deby, form goes out the window" If by that they mean that no matter how rubbish the Yams have been against everybody else in the weeks leading up to a trip to ER the least they will leave with is a draw ( usually acheived with a last minute goal ) then yeh, they are bang on.

I am not bent out of shape because Hibs arent a shoe in for at least 3rd every season. I am bent out of shape because we now appear to be a team who for the second season running look like a candidate for relegation. I used to listen to cup draws hoping to avoid away games at Ibrox, Parkhead or the PBS. Now an away draw to any SPL team looks like curtains.

Anyway ........ See ya Sunday :wink:

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 10:02 PM
Some good points on this thread, for and against our record over the last 4 years.

The point is I think that in that period there has been no forward progress on the pitch at all.

Our record in derby matches would bring a tear to a glass eye. I dont know about the folk who run or play for Hibs, but I for one am getting bloody fed up of watching fkng Yams celebrating at ER twice a season.

We have failed miserably to get to a single cup semi, made all the worse by the fact that the cup draws by and large have ( on paper at least ) been pretty kind to us.

Our attempts to make a dent in Europe have been nothing short of pathetic in the few times we have appeared.

Our record in the top 6 when we have made it is nothing short of shamefull, overshadowed only by our miserable showing in the bottom 6 last season.

this would be bareable if the teams we were up against were richer than us, or had the ability to attract better players. But the truth is that they dont, and in view of this there really is no excuse.

The Yams do spend more money, but is it not the case that before every derby you hear Hibs players saying " aye, this is a deby, form goes out the window" If by that they mean that no matter how rubbish the Yams have been against everybody else in the weeks leading up to a trip to ER the least they will leave with is a draw ( usually acheived with a last minute goal ) then yeh, they are bang on.

I am not bent out of shape because Hibs arent a shoe in for at least 3rd every season. I am bent out of shape because we now appear to be a team who for the second season running look like a candidate for relegation. I used to listen to cup draws hoping to avoid away games at Ibrox, Parkhead or the PBS. Now an away draw to any SPL team looks like curtains.

Anyway ........ See ya Sunday :wink:

Good stuff in there.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 10:16 PM
The club is stronger the team though has gone from one shambles to another, 4th once is unacceptable from the building blocks that should have been in place, to have our last league finish as a 10th is just a joke. IMO the team is all over the place.

I think you have an unrealistic perception of Hibs' standing in the game - how many seasons in your lifetime have we finished 4th or better?

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 10:22 PM
I think you have an unrealistic perception of Hibs' standing in the game - how many seasons in your lifetime have we finished 4th or better?

Irrelevant, they have had the tools to finish 4th IMO the last 4/5 years, maybe the problem is well seeing as we never finish 4th much then thats just normal, well maybe it is time to move on and start having a point in a new stadium and £4m training complex which surely the point in building is to not be what we have been in past.

nortonhibby
08-09-2011, 10:37 PM
I don't think you've a strong case to say we've declined since 2007. Yogi had a higher league finish than Collins and Mixu so that's an improvement, and we've had a rank season last year but overall the club is stronger now than it was in 2007, It's far too early to write this season off.


agreed it is early days for this season.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 10:43 PM
Irrelevant, they have had the tools to finish 4th IMO the last 4/5 years, maybe the problem is well seeing as we never finish 4th much then thats just normal, well maybe it is time to move on and start having a point in a new stadium and £4m training complex which surely the point in building is to not be what we have been in past. If we have had the tools then it suggests that the board have done their job, then.I don't think my point was irelevant at all. The facilities are things that will provide sustained benefits over a period of many years. It goes back to my original point about collins and his signings though. You can't polish a turd so if you bring bad players to the club the training center won't turn them into top players.Hibs need to marry the top facilities with good players to get the benefit. Time will tell if CC has managed to do that.

Captain Trips
08-09-2011, 10:45 PM
If we have had the tools then it suggests that the board have done their job, then.I don't think my point was irelevant at all. The facilities are things that will provide sustained benefits over a period of many years. It goes back to my original point about collins and his signings though. You can't polish a turd so if you bring bad players to the club the training center won't turn them into top players.Hibs need to marry the top facilities with good players to get the benefit. Time will tell if CC has managed to do that.

But you do not think they have had the tools due to JC? No it suggests the board can get some things right however they have got some key things wrong hence our dreadful 10th among other things.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 10:58 PM
But you do not think they have had the tools due to JC? No it suggests the board can get some things right however they have got some key things wrong hence our dreadful 10th among other things.

I think JC's poor signings played a significant part in getting us to the point where we are up to the end of last season. Calderwood is in the unusual position of having a squad with almost no players that he hasn't signed (and in that I include players that he has chosen to keep, as well as players that he brought to the club.)

Neither Mixu or Yogi had that advantage, and their ability to sign good players was hampered significantly by the fact that we had given contracts to players like HKT, Morais, Donaldson, Kerr, Antoine Curier, O'Brian, Ma-Kalambay and so on. And because their ability to sign good players was hampered, it meant they got a couple of good players and then filled the squad with other poor players to make up the numbers.

They are not blameless, they are culpable for signing poor players as well, however they could only sign who they could afford to, and if they'd inherited a decent squad we would be in a much better position now for it.

nortonhibby
08-09-2011, 11:02 PM
I think JC's poor signings played a significant part in getting us to the point where we are up to the end of last season. Calderwood is in the unusual position of having a squad with almost no players that he hasn't signed (and in that I include players that he has chosen to keep, as well as players that he brought to the club.)

Neither Mixu or Yogi had that advantage, and their ability to sign good players was hampered significantly by the fact that we had given contracts to players like HKT, Morais, Donaldson, Kerr, Antoine Curier, O'Brian, Ma-Kalambay and so on. And because their ability to sign good players was hampered, it meant they got a couple of good players and then filled the squad with other poor players to make up the numbers.

They are not blameless, they are culpable for signing poor players as well, however they could only sign who they could afford to, and if they'd inherited a decent squad we would be in a much better position now for it.

Can we please give Colin time.

matty_f
08-09-2011, 11:08 PM
Can we please give Colin time.

I think we need to. He's put this squad together and he now has them available and fit to play. Judgement time starts now, IMHO. We need to see whether CC is as good as he says he is.

Kaiser1962
09-09-2011, 01:56 AM
You were the one that suggested he was taking a back seat or getting off the bus. I still think he controls and has final say in everything nae matter what titles anybody else has and I think him having so much control over everything for years (protecting his own interests nae doubt as much as anything else) has been one of the biggest problems at ER road for a long time. We may be some sort of business model and achieved this that and the other off the park but I doubt we'll never amount tae much as a fitba team for as long as he is there. He is the only common denominator in our decline since 2007. I IMO he should leave and take his latest poor manager with him.

He is removing himself from the day to day stuff Dan but I would imagine that he still has significant input on serious stuff because, as you rightly point out, he is the second biggest shareholder and has Farmer's trust.

Things are changing but whether it changes enough for some folk is another matter.

sunshine1875
09-09-2011, 08:46 AM
You can't forget a change in luck!

During the latter stages of the Williamson era, we were lucky to have some fantastic young players coming through the ranks at a time when most football teams in Scotland were cutting back on wages and letting top players leave. They got weaker, yet we got stronger with Brown, O'Connor, Deeks, Thomson, Whittaker, Fletcher all coming through at the same time.

We were then lucky that Williamson chose to leave and we recruited Mowbray, who was a breathe of fresh air to Scottish football. We were lucky that Mowbray was able to make some good signings like Murphy, Jones, Sproule, Deano, Benji, Zemmama

We were then lucky that Collins came in and was able to make small tweaks to that team with the result that we won the cup and looked a good bet for the 'Scottish' and finishing well up the league. The future looked green!

However, we were unluckly that Collins made some bad signings. Money doesn't come into it as he spent more than Mowbray. Whilst Collins knows how to play football and to read the game well, he did also make some odd decisions that were probably down to a lack of experience. The decision to play Damon Gray in a 'Scottish' semi-final replay on the basis of a goal in virtually his first game for Hibs (against Aberdeen) seemed a gut-feel, knee-jerk reaction. Fergie wouldn't have done that.

We were then unlucky that we recruited two decent blokes, who maybe lacked the real experience to manage Hibs at that time in their career. They brought their own players in, but our decline since March 2007 continued with neither addressing the real problems of poor goalie, weak defence and a general lack of creativity and strength in midfield! Is that bad management or bad luck - well at the level that they are puchasing players luck plays a big part in it. How lucky were we that that Murphy turned into the player he became, yet Clayton Donaldson (of which more was expected) was a general flop!

The downward spiral really starts in March 2010 only three years after the cup win. For whatever reason, Hughes loses his grip and the players stop playing. Someone said to me that a Falkirk fan mentioned that don't expect Hughes to turn things around when things go pear-shaped! Was this just bad luck that Hibs recruited someone like that! Was it just bad luck that we had a midfielder that "when the going gets tough, Liam Miller goes missing"!

Role on to the Calderwood era and he has now stripped out the 'unworkable legacy' and brought in players, each and everyone is welcomed by the fans as a good move. Palson (Icelandic u21 international), GOC, Sproule, Griffths, Airey, O'Hanlon, Towell etc etc. On paper they are all good players, yet something is missing. Is this just bad luck or bad management. How much more depressing would things have been had the ICT player scored late in the game and had GOC not scored his injury time winner? How less depressing would things have been had GOC scored midway through the first half at Hertz. Who would most Hibs fans have preferred, Sproule or the guy from Killie Dayton, who appears to have played very little football at any top-class level. Well on the basis of one game, I know who had the better game. Is it unlucky that we have not been able to unearth a crop of youngsters like the ones mentioned before

IMO, it all comes down to luck. Appoint a top-class football manager and he is more likely to make the right decisions. Buy top-class players and they are more likely to do the right thing. But there is no guarantee! Make a choice between two young emerging managers (such as a Mowbray or a Collins) and one could be great and one could be a dud! It is all down to luck and our luck has been bad since March 2007.

down the slope
09-09-2011, 09:09 AM
You can't forget a change in luck!

During the latter stages of the Williamson era, we were lucky to have some fantastic young players coming through the ranks at a time when most football teams in Scotland were cutting back on wages and letting top players leave. They got weaker, yet we got stronger with Brown, O'Connor, Deeks, Thomson, Whittaker, Fletcher all coming through at the same time.

We were then lucky that Williamson chose to leave and we recruited Mowbray, who was a breathe of fresh air to Scottish football. We were lucky that Mowbray was able to make some good signings like Murphy, Jones, Sproule, Deano, Benji, Zemmama

We were then lucky that Collins came in and was able to make small tweaks to that team with the result that we won the cup and looked a good bet for the 'Scottish' and finishing well up the league. The future looked green!

However, we were unluckly that Collins made some bad signings. Money doesn't come into it as he spent more than Mowbray. Whilst Collins knows how to play football and to read the game well, he did also make some odd decisions that were probably down to a lack of experience. The decision to play Damon Gray in a 'Scottish' semi-final replay on the basis of a goal in virtually his first game for Hibs (against Aberdeen) seemed a gut-feel, knee-jerk reaction. Fergie wouldn't have done that.

We were then unlucky that we recruited two decent blokes, who maybe lacked the real experience to manage Hibs at that time in their career. They brought their own players in, but our decline since March 2007 continued with neither addressing the real problems of poor goalie, weak defence and a general lack of creativity and strength in midfield! Is that bad management or bad luck - well at the level that they are puchasing players luck plays a big part in it. How lucky were we that that Murphy turned into the player he became, yet Clayton Donaldson (of which more was expected) was a general flop!

The downward spiral really starts in March 2010 only three years after the cup win. For whatever reason, Hughes loses his grip and the players stop playing. Someone said to me that a Falkirk fan mentioned that don't expect Hughes to turn things around when things go pear-shaped! Was this just bad luck that Hibs recruited someone like that! Was it just bad luck that we had a midfielder that "when the going gets tough, Liam Miller goes missing"!

Role on to the Calderwood era and he has now stripped out the 'unworkable legacy' and brought in players, each and everyone is welcomed by the fans as a good move. Palson (Icelandic u21 international), GOC, Sproule, Griffths, Airey, O'Hanlon, Towell etc etc. On paper they are all good players, yet something is missing. Is this just bad luck or bad management. How much more depressing would things have been had the ICT player scored late in the game and had GOC not scored his injury time winner? How less depressing would things have been had GOC scored midway through the first half at Hertz. Who would most Hibs fans have preferred, Sproule or the guy from Killie Dayton, who appears to have played very little football at any top-class level. Well on the basis of one game, I know who had the better game. Is it unlucky that we have not been able to unearth a crop of youngsters like the ones mentioned before

IMO, it all comes down to luck. Appoint a top-class football manager and he is more likely to make the right decisions. Buy top-class players and they are more likely to do the right thing. But there is no guarantee! Make a choice between two young emerging managers (such as a Mowbray or a Collins) and one could be great and one could be a dud! It is all down to luck and our luck has been bad since March 2007.

Aye, the other teams are lucky they don't have Petrie. As someone pointed out he is the common denominator in the recent decline , he was not the chairman when Mowbray was appointed and you all know what has happened to his appointments since then. Accountants should never be near the negotiations when players are brought to the club especially one who is a part owner .

Captain Trips
09-09-2011, 09:09 AM
You can't forget a change in luck!

During the latter stages of the Williamson era, we were lucky to have some fantastic young players coming through the ranks at a time when most football teams in Scotland were cutting back on wages and letting top players leave. They got weaker, yet we got stronger with Brown, O'Connor, Deeks, Thomson, Whittaker, Fletcher all coming through at the same time.

We were then lucky that Williamson chose to leave and we recruited Mowbray, who was a breathe of fresh air to Scottish football. We were lucky that Mowbray was able to make some good signings like Murphy, Jones, Sproule, Deano, Benji, Zemmama

We were then lucky that Collins came in and was able to make small tweaks to that team with the result that we won the cup and looked a good bet for the 'Scottish' and finishing well up the league. The future looked green!

However, we were unluckly that Collins made some bad signings. Money doesn't come into it as he spent more than Mowbray. Whilst Collins knows how to play football and to read the game well, he did also make some odd decisions that were probably down to a lack of experience. The decision to play Damon Gray in a 'Scottish' semi-final replay on the basis of a goal in virtually his first game for Hibs (against Aberdeen) seemed a gut-feel, knee-jerk reaction. Fergie wouldn't have done that.

We were then unlucky that we recruited two decent blokes, who maybe lacked the real experience to manage Hibs at that time in their career. They brought their own players in, but our decline since March 2007 continued with neither addressing the real problems of poor goalie, weak defence and a general lack of creativity and strength in midfield! Is that bad management or bad luck - well at the level that they are puchasing players luck plays a big part in it. How lucky were we that that Murphy turned into the player he became, yet Clayton Donaldson (of which more was expected) was a general flop!

The downward spiral really starts in March 2010 only three years after the cup win. For whatever reason, Hughes loses his grip and the players stop playing. Someone said to me that a Falkirk fan mentioned that don't expect Hughes to turn things around when things go pear-shaped! Was this just bad luck that Hibs recruited someone like that! Was it just bad luck that we had a midfielder that "when the going gets tough, Liam Miller goes missing"!

Role on to the Calderwood era and he has now stripped out the 'unworkable legacy' and brought in players, each and everyone is welcomed by the fans as a good move. Palson (Icelandic u21 international), GOC, Sproule, Griffths, Airey, O'Hanlon, Towell etc etc. On paper they are all good players, yet something is missing. Is this just bad luck or bad management. How much more depressing would things have been had the ICT player scored late in the game and had GOC not scored his injury time winner? How less depressing would things have been had GOC scored midway through the first half at Hertz. Who would most Hibs fans have preferred, Sproule or the guy from Killie Dayton, who appears to have played very little football at any top-class level. Well on the basis of one game, I know who had the better game. Is it unlucky that we have not been able to unearth a crop of youngsters like the ones mentioned before

IMO, it all comes down to luck. Appoint a top-class football manager and he is more likely to make the right decisions. Buy top-class players and they are more likely to do the right thing. But there is no guarantee! Make a choice between two young emerging managers (such as a Mowbray or a Collins) and one could be great and one could be a dud! It is all down to luck and our luck has been bad since March 2007.

Luck is indeed a factor not just at Hibs but at every club, I wouldnt say we had more bad luck than anyone else I think we made a lot of bad decisions at key times. For the last 2 seasons and it is continuing we are signing players to get from one transfer window to another, every window we are needing to make lots of changes as a lot of players are on short deals, IMO this will not work and CC is continuing with this and the board allow it. Ok it means if a player doesnt work out it is good however if we have founf 1 or 2 players worth building on but we finish poorly due to the rest then we may find it difficult to keep them. I just think we are heading for disaster with the way things are being run, well I say heading I think 10th was a disaster I just do not see where we are going with a turnstyle in the changing room.

Andy74
09-09-2011, 09:15 AM
I think JC's poor signings played a significant part in getting us to the point where we are up to the end of last season. Calderwood is in the unusual position of having a squad with almost no players that he hasn't signed (and in that I include players that he has chosen to keep, as well as players that he brought to the club.)

Neither Mixu or Yogi had that advantage, and their ability to sign good players was hampered significantly by the fact that we had given contracts to players like HKT, Morais, Donaldson, Kerr, Antoine Curier, O'Brian, Ma-Kalambay and so on. And because their ability to sign good players was hampered, it meant they got a couple of good players and then filled the squad with other poor players to make up the numbers.

They are not blameless, they are culpable for signing poor players as well, however they could only sign who they could afford to, and if they'd inherited a decent squad we would be in a much better position now for it.

An Aberdeen fan made an interesting comment to me yesterday.

He said it was noticeable in recent years that Aberdeen were still trying to sign players that were in theory decent footballers. Even when they went for bigger guys they weren't beasts, they were bigger guys who still tried to play football.

His theory was that beacuse of that Aberdeen suffer because inevitably those players aren't quite as good as they should be or they wouldn't be at Aberdeen. He also thought there was no pressure on these guys beacuse they were paid okay and could easily get other clubs down in England.

Not so for your battlers at the smaller clubs who now seem to outperform the likes of Aberdeen. They have guys built for the SPL with little pretentions or expectations to play a bit. They also know that if they don't battle and fight they are down to the lower reaches of part time Scottish football.

For me Hibs have the same issues. Still trying to sign decent players who have something lacking and no pressure or fear because they are and will continue to be well paid regardless of what happens.

Sure Collins didn't really sign well, but again, in theory they all looked good enough to begin with and when signed.

Mixu was hit or miss as well. Mowbary himself had a high number of guys who didn't work out too like his keepers, Morrow, Konte, Konde etc.

The latest thing is that Hughes signed rubbish. Looking at what he had he again in theory improved on what we had.

Stack and Brown for McNeil and Maka. Hart for Van Zanten, Dickoh for Hogg, Miller and McBride for Keenan and Chisholm, adding Stokes.

Bad luck certainly comes into it and then the Board have taken action regardless of what excuses there might have been. Seems we have changed the time we are going to give people this time but maybe not by much. Another couple of defeats in a row would surely mean the current guy couldn't come back either.

Anyway, I think we are a bit like Aberdeen, try to get footballers but they ultimately, unless you get pretty lucky, aren't suited to what the SPL is now. And we can't afford good enough footballers to rise above it.

Captain Trips
09-09-2011, 09:25 AM
I think we are getting bogged down with this, IMO it should not have been too difficult on the back of a cup win and having sold some players for good money to be 4/5 years down the line looking at high league finishes with top 6 not even an issue. IMO we are not in that position through the leadership at the top of the club these are wasted years that good money has been paid out by fans for little return and at this juncture it still looks like it may not get a lot better.

Woe is me at Hibs, every club has signed gash players we are no different but we choose to go down a crapshoot of 6 to 12mth deals with players coming and going all over place. We are on the park very unstable as again in January and in Summer we will be changing lots of players, this lack of stabilty is unacceptable if you cant get guys in to commit dont bother, some of these players should be glad of a longer deal. IMO we have already done it this season and we have to many short deals so I think and hopefully will be wrong that we are in for a poor season.

matty_f
09-09-2011, 09:42 AM
An Aberdeen fan made an interesting comment to me yesterday.

He said it was noticeable in recent years that Aberdeen were still trying to sign players that were in theory decent footballers. Even when they went for bigger guys they weren't beasts, they were bigger guys who still tried to play football.

His theory was that beacuse of that Aberdeen suffer because inevitably those players aren't quite as good as they should be or they wouldn't be at Aberdeen. He also thought there was no pressure on these guys beacuse they were paid okay and could easily get other clubs down in England.

Not so for your battlers at the smaller clubs who now seem to outperform the likes of Aberdeen. They have guys built for the SPL with little pretentions or expectations to play a bit. They also know that if they don't battle and fight they are down to the lower reaches of part time Scottish football.

For me Hibs have the same issues. Still trying to sign decent players who have something lacking and no pressure or fear because they are and will continue to be well paid regardless of what happens.

Sure Collins didn't really sign well, but again, in theory they all looked good enough to begin with and when signed.

Mixu was hit or miss as well. Mowbary himself had a high number of guys who didn't work out too like his keepers, Morrow, Konte, Konde etc.

The latest thing is that Hughes signed rubbish. Looking at what he had he again in theory improved on what we had.

Stack and Brown for McNeil and Maka. Hart for Van Zanten, Dickoh for Hogg, Miller and McBride for Keenan and Chisholm, adding Stokes.

Bad luck certainly comes into it and then the Board have taken action regardless of what excuses there might have been. Seems we have changed the time we are going to give people this time but maybe not by much. Another couple of defeats in a row would surely mean the current guy couldn't come back either.

Anyway, I think we are a bit like Aberdeen, try to get footballers but they ultimately, unless you get pretty lucky, aren't suited to what the SPL is now. And we can't afford good enough footballers to rise above it.

That's a good post, Andy, and I particularly agree with the Aberdeen fan's observation. It's something I've thought for a while that Hibs are a club that is probably too convenient for it's own good. Not a bad payer, but not a good enough payer to make players desperate to stay. We attract decent players but they don't achieve what they should, largely because there's no real incentive for them do so, IMHO.

I'd actually like to see Hibs structure their pay on a very low basic, with big payouts for appearances (so there's an incentive to keep your place in the team) and wins. I think we'd see a sizable shift in attitude under those conditions.:agree:

sunshine1875
09-09-2011, 09:47 AM
I think we are getting bogged down with this, IMO it should not have been too difficult on the back of a cup win and having sold some players for good money to be 4/5 years down the line looking at high league finishes with top 6 not even an issue. IMO we are not in that position through the leadership at the top of the club these are wasted years that good money has been paid out by fans for little return and at this juncture it still looks like it may not get a lot better.

Woe is me at Hibs, every club has signed gash players we are no different but we choose to go down a crapshoot of 6 to 12mth deals with players coming and going all over place. We are on the park very unstable as again in January and in Summer we will be changing lots of players, this lack of stabilty is unacceptable if you cant get guys in to commit dont bother, some of these players should be glad of a longer deal. IMO we have already done it this season and we have to many short deals so I think and hopefully will be wrong that we are in for a poor season.

Short term deals, whether they be 1yr or 2yr seems to be the way things go with most clubs these days at our 'level'. It suits the player - with money not what it used to be they are happy with a 1-2yr deal as they can plan to move to a better deal later. It suits the club - as why put someone on a 3-4yr deal when there is a big risk that you could be signing a dud. Yes - the risk is that they could lose a good player after 1-2yrs, but that creates other opportunities and with that further risks!

I ask what is the better deal for Hibs - signing GOC on a 1-yr deal or Edwin De Gaff on a 3-yr deal? I know which I prefer!

sunshine1875
09-09-2011, 09:52 AM
That's a good post, Andy, and I particularly agree with the Aberdeen fan's observation. It's something I've thought for a while that Hibs are a club that is probably too convenient for it's own good. Not a bad payer, but not a good enough payer to make players desperate to stay. We attract decent players but they don't achieve what they should, largely because there's no real incentive for them do so, IMHO.

I'd actually like to see Hibs structure their pay on a very low basic, with big payouts for appearances (so there's an incentive to keep your place in the team) and wins. I think we'd see a sizable shift in attitude under those conditions.:agree:

Why would a player take a risk to come to Hibs then. He could always get injured in his first game, then no money to support his family.

Matty, would you take that risk - for example, if you get paid (say) a quarter of your current wage, with the 'hope' that you could get large bonus if you are selected for the key jobs at work, knowing that only 30% of you and your colleagues could be selected at any one time!

Aldo
09-09-2011, 09:54 AM
Put it this way..CC and his team need to start picking up points ENDOF.

Teams like Dunfermline/St Mirren and ICT will have guys who will fight and fight for everything...see St Mirren at ER recently.

Its okay saying we have quality players but I would rather we had guys that fought for everything and showed a bit of commitment.

Thats why the likes of Scott deserves his chance on Sunday.

We have taken more than a dozens steps back from that cup winning team and lets face it...there are a going to be a look more seasons like that until we get the balance right.

Hard to beat 1st and foremost and then add bit by bit. Total team overhaul however on paper we are no worse than most however we need to start playing as a team very quickly or its 1st Div footie next season...and please dont think this will never happen.

The rest of the season will be very very hard and dont underestimate Abersheep cos they will come and give us a game.

Captain Trips
09-09-2011, 09:56 AM
Short term deals, whether they be 1yr or 2yr seems to be the way things go with most clubs these days at our 'level'. It suits the player - with money not what it used to be they are happy with a 1-2yr deal as they can plan to move to a better deal later. It suits the club - as why put someone on a 3-4yr deal when there is a big risk that you could be signing a dud. Yes - the risk is that they could lose a good player after 1-2yrs, but that creates other opportunities and with that further risks!

I ask what is the better deal for Hibs - signing GOC on a 1-yr deal or Edwin De Gaff on a 3-yr deal? I know which I prefer!


Well that IMO is wrong, a manger has to get 3 out of 4 or 5 signings right, I would accept 1 dud for every 3 good ones if we are keeping the good ones for 3 or 4 yrs, we have 3 or 4 yrs to move the dud on. If the thinking is we better only offer short term deals in case the players are not good shows no confidence at all. I do not think lots of teams are operating to quite the scale we have been.

It does not suit the club footballwise, how can rotations on the scales we are seeing be good? Defences need to work together for more than 6mths, we have had different striker partnerships every season over last few years, it is not going to work.

bawheid
09-09-2011, 10:05 AM
Accountants should never be near the negotiations when players are brought to the club.

Why not? Seems like a good idea to me to have somone at the negotiating table who knows about money and numbers, don't you think?

You'll remember Chris Robinson left "football man" Jim Jefferies in charge of the SMG money and he pissed it down the sink paying guys like Goran Petric £14,000 per week.

Purple & Green
09-09-2011, 10:34 AM
One of the biggest problems, IMHO, was that John Collins had no idea how to replace the players that were sold with good players. We offered trials to loads of players rather than JC being able to bring in players that he knew well.

Contrast that with Mowbray, whose understanding of the lower levels of English football served us very well. Deano, Murphy, Jones etc all brought in for nothing, Sproule for £5k etc.

Collins spent too big on AOB and Maka, neither of whom fulfilled their promise. Known signings were poor as well - Brian Kerr was rotten.

In the end Collins had brought in so many sub-standard players that we were in freefall by the time he left (because we'd run out of money.)



I think you over state Mowbray and understate Collins.

Collins "players" managed to participate in wins in 07/08 at Tynecastle & Ibrox as well as beating Celtic at ER in the months before he left - 8 of the 14 player who won at Ibrox were Collins signings if you include Chisholm & McCann who got their debuts under JC. What that squad was capable of we'll never know but they were top of the league in the weeks before JC left. On that basis it's hard to argue that it was Collins fault for the drop in standards from top of the league to 12th over the last 4 years.

As for Mowbray for every Ivan there was a Simon Brown, Zibby Malkowski, Sam Morrow, Amadou Konte, Omar Konde, Paul Dalglish and Shelton Martis.

IMHO, the standard of player wasn't the issue - it was the discipline which was non-existent under Mowbray and extremely professional under Collins. I think Mixu went for somewhere between the two, and god knows what Yogi's approach was.

smurf
09-09-2011, 11:09 AM
I think you over state Mowbray and understate Collins.

Collins "players" managed to participate in wins in 07/08 at Tynecastle & Ibrox as well as beating Celtic at ER in the months before he left - 8 of the 14 player who won at Ibrox were Collins signings if you include Chisholm & McCann who got their debuts under JC. What that squad was capable of we'll never know but they were top of the league in the weeks before JC left. On that basis it's hard to argue that it was Collins fault for the drop in standards from top of the league to 12th over the last 4 years.

As for Mowbray for every Ivan there was a Simon Brown, Zibby Malkowski, Sam Morrow, Amadou Konte, Omar Konde, Paul Dalglish and Shelton Martis.

IMHO, the standard of player wasn't the issue - it was the discipline which was non-existent under Mowbray and extremely professional under Collins. I think Mixu went for somewhere between the two, and god knows what Yogi's approach was.

As you probably know I was and am a huge fan of JC.

However, his results were pretty poor were they not leading up to him walking? Mid Oct - Dec?

Hibs On Tour
09-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Well that IMO is wrong, a manger has to get 3 out of 4 or 5 signings right, I would accept 1 dud for every 3 good ones if we are keeping the good ones for 3 or 4 yrs, we have 3 or 4 yrs to move the dud on. If the thinking is we better only offer short term deals in case the players are not good shows no confidence at all. I do not think lots of teams are operating to quite the scale we have been.

It does not suit the club footballwise, how can rotations on the scales we are seeing be good? Defences need to work together for more than 6mths, we have had different striker partnerships every season over last few years, it is not going to work.

On the money with that. We seem to continually end up with a conveyor belt of players coming in [more often late in the window than early] which means that we have to 'give them time to gel' when pre-season is supposed to be for that. So we maybe waste August waiting for the new players to 'gel'. By the time Nov comes around, those on 1 yr deals are 'open to having their heads turned' as they can sign pre-contract as of the January window. Again, we end up adding short-term contracts in Jan. We give these players Feb to 'gel'. All in all, we have one team for Sep/Oct and most likely a slightly changed one Mar/Apr/May with the other months being affected one way or the other by contract speculation due to the short contract lengths. Bear in mind also that if we get someone in on a 'low-risk' short-term contract and they do really well for us, chances are they'll get poached in the next window because we haven't got them tied down! Its a self-perpetuating cycle that shows no signs of stopping.

The only way forward is to have a manager who can spot and motivate geniune talent and get that manager and talent tied to the club for 2-3 years for say at least 3/4 of the squad. You can then afford to have one or two 'ins and outs' without disrupting the generally settled nature of the squad. Keepers and defenders need to be settled with each other - FACT. Strikers tend to work best when played in settled partnerships - FACT. When was the last time when we had a pretty settled starting 11 each week? For me, it was under Mowbray. That says a lot about why we are where we are now. IMHO of course :wink:

GGTTH

Captain Trips
09-09-2011, 11:24 AM
On the money with that. We seem to continually end up with a conveyor belt of players coming in [more often late in the window than early] which means that we have to 'give them time to gel' when pre-season is supposed to be for that. So we maybe waste August waiting for the new players to 'gel'. By the time Nov comes around, those on 1 yr deals are 'open to having their heads turned' as they can sign pre-contract as of the January window. Again, we end up adding short-term contracts in Jan. We give these players Feb to 'gel'. All in all, we have one team for Sep/Oct and most likely a slightly changed one Mar/Apr/May with the other months being affected one way or the other by contract speculation due to the short contract lengths. Bear in mind also that if we get someone in on a 'low-risk' short-term contract and they do really well for us, chances are they'll get poached in the next window because we haven't got them tied down! Its a self-perpetuating cycle that shows no signs of stopping.

The only way forward is to have a manager who can spot and motivate geniune talent and get that manager and talent tied to the club for 2-3 years for say at least 3/4 of the squad. You can then afford to have one or two 'ins and outs' without disrupting the generally settled nature of the squad. Keepers and defenders need to be settled with each other - FACT. Strikers tend to work best when played in settled partnerships - FACT. When was the last time when we had a pretty settled starting 11 each week? For me, it was under Mowbray. That says a lot about why we are where we are now. IMHO of course :wink:

GGTTH

:top marks

Purple & Green
09-09-2011, 12:02 PM
The decision to play Damon Gray in a 'Scottish' semi-final replay on the basis of a goal in virtually his first game for Hibs (against Aberdeen) seemed a gut-feel, knee-jerk reaction. Fergie wouldn't have done that.

It was the other way round - he made his debut in the cup semi, and then scored v Aberdeen the next week.

Fergie may not give youth a chance in the same way at Man United - it's different - but that's exactly the kind of thing he did do at Aberdeen throwing players like Eric Black, John Hewitt and even Tommy McIntyre into important games at home and abroad.

silverhibee
09-09-2011, 01:41 PM
That's a good post, Andy, and I particularly agree with the Aberdeen fan's observation. It's something I've thought for a while that Hibs are a club that is probably too convenient for it's own good. Not a bad payer, but not a good enough payer to make players desperate to stay. We attract decent players but they don't achieve what they should, largely because there's no real incentive for them do so, IMHO.

I'd actually like to see Hibs structure their pay on a very low basic, with big payouts for appearances (so there's an incentive to keep your place in the team) and wins. I think we'd see a sizable shift in attitude under those conditions.:agree:


Thats okay to say that Matty, but players would not sign for us if that was the case, why come to Hibs on a very low basic and hope that the team wins game, its no garuntee that they would win so they would end up playing for crap money that doesn't pay the bills, for example Hibs offer you £500 a week basic and a win bonus of say £2000, St Johnstone offer the same player £1500 a week basic and £350 win bonus, every player would take the St Johnstone deal imo. :aok:

matty_f
09-09-2011, 02:33 PM
Why would a player take a risk to come to Hibs then. He could always get injured in his first game, then no money to support his family.

Matty, would you take that risk - for example, if you get paid (say) a quarter of your current wage, with the 'hope' that you could get large bonus if you are selected for the key jobs at work, knowing that only 30% of you and your colleagues could be selected at any one time!


Thats okay to say that Matty, but players would not sign for us if that was the case, why come to Hibs on a very low basic and hope that the team wins game, its no garuntee that they would win so they would end up playing for crap money that doesn't pay the bills, for example Hibs offer you £500 a week basic and a win bonus of say £2000, St Johnstone offer the same player £1500 a week basic and £350 win bonus, every player would take the St Johnstone deal imo. :aok:

I'm not talking about Hibs paying less than St Johnstone, there are many teams in the league that pay less than us that are performing better. We only need to offer a little more than those teams as a basic, and give larger bonuses.

The bonus should be an incentive that makes a difference to a player, not something that they'll not be that bothered about either way.

sunshine1875
10-09-2011, 07:13 PM
It was the other way round - he made his debut in the cup semi, and then scored v Aberdeen the next week.

Fergie may not give youth a chance in the same way at Man United - it's different - but that's exactly the kind of thing he did do at Aberdeen throwing players like Eric Black, John Hewitt and even Tommy McIntyre into important games at home and abroad.

No, you did read what I wrote - I said the decision to play Damon Gray in a 'Scottish' semi-final replay on the basis of a goal in virtually his first game for Hibs (against Aberdeen) was to me a baffling decision. He definately played against Aberdeen on the Saturday when Collins rested some players, then played again in the 'Scottish' semi-final replay when better players did not start. That is the point I am making!

I watched Aberdeen a lot during Fergies time and he never picked someone from no-where, played them in a cup semi or final, then disgarded them. Guys like Black and Hewitt were regular first team players by the time they played in cup semis / finals.

Purple & Green
10-09-2011, 10:55 PM
No, you did read what I wrote - I said the decision to play Damon Gray in a 'Scottish' semi-final replay on the basis of a goal in virtually his first game for Hibs (against Aberdeen) was to me a baffling decision. He definately played against Aberdeen on the Saturday when Collins rested some players, then played again in the 'Scottish' semi-final replay when better players did not start. That is the point I am making!

I watched Aberdeen a lot during Fergies time and he never picked someone from no-where, played them in a cup semi or final, then disgarded them. Guys like Black and Hewitt were regular first team players by the time they played in cup semis / finals.

I take your point about starting Gray, what I was saying was he made his debut as sub in the first semi, and then scored v Aberdeen between games before he started the replay.

As regards Fergie, Eric Black, for example made his debut in a new firm derby, then played at Parkhead, v Partick and then Hamburg - scoring on his debut and v Hamburg in a 3rd round UEFA Cup game.

Tommy McIntyres second game was against Celtic in a year when Aberdeen won the league.

Without labouring a point there are other examples.

Fergie was bold with youth, Collins was the same.

Purple & Green
10-09-2011, 11:01 PM
As you probably know I was and am a huge fan of JC.

However, his results were pretty poor were they not leading up to him walking? Mid Oct - Dec?

We lost 5 of our 19 games that season before JC resigned. Does that qualify as poor? Mid Oct to Dec we were W1 D3 L4 - all post Ibrox which seems to be a turning point - maybe the players believed their own hype - in the aftermath Shiels and Morais were sent off costing us games at Fir Park and at home to St Mirren. All the terrible Mowbray indiscipline creeping back in - Gathuessi sent off v Falkirk too.

connerg
11-09-2011, 01:27 AM
I think you over state Mowbray and understate Collins.

Collins "players" managed to participate in wins in 07/08 at Tynecastle & Ibrox as well as beating Celtic at ER in the months before he left - 8 of the 14 player who won at Ibrox were Collins signings if you include Chisholm & McCann who got their debuts under JC. What that squad was capable of we'll never know but they were top of the league in the weeks before JC left. On that basis it's hard to argue that it was Collins fault for the drop in standards from top of the league to 12th over the last 4 years.

As for Mowbray for every Ivan there was a Simon Brown, Zibby Malkowski, Sam Morrow, Amadou Konte, Omar Konde, Paul Dalglish and Shelton Martis.

IMHO, the standard of player wasn't the issue - it was the discipline which was non-existent under Mowbray and extremely professional under Collins. I think Mixu went for somewhere between the two, and god knows what Yogi's approach was.

Does every Hibs fan forget the humiliating 4-0, 4-1, 4-0 defeats in one season by hearts, not to mention the 4-4 draw at home to Dundee when we were 4-1 up in the second half! Can't stand this love in with Mowbray, who gave Zibbi a new contract just before he f..... off to West Brom? Yes it was Mowbray!!!!!!!!

Captain Trips
11-09-2011, 12:31 PM
Does every Hibs fan forget the humiliating 4-0, 4-1, 4-0 defeats in one season by hearts, not to mention the 4-4 draw at home to Dundee when we were 4-1 up in the second half! Can't stand this love in with Mowbray, who gave Zibbi a new contract just before he f..... off to West Brom? Yes it was Mowbray!!!!!!!!

Mowbray overall did well but like every manager when they leave along with the good they will leave the bad, like JC did like Mixu did etc etc, in 2011 the fact Hibs have came off the back of a tenth place finish and a 1 in 5 seasons euro finish shows a failure from the top. Hibs absolutley have to win today and take that forward.