Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill

[Sylar]

I noted on the news earlier that the Scottish Parliament will revisit the concept of a sectarian bill going through to stamp out offensive and threatening behaviour at Scottish Football.

Not set to only tackle sectarianism, the bill could also target anyone who shouts out or sings anything with racist/sectarian/homophobic/classist/personally derogatory remarks at a football game and the initial discussions suggested 5 year sentence as a possible repercussion.

In my personal view, the Scottish Government are opening a huge can of worms here. They'd place sectarian chants on a par with any "anti-Glasgow/referee/opposition managers and players etc", all because they are to be deemed as "offensive".

It comes as no great surprise that the Rangers Supporters Trust are being very vocal about this Bill, with one of their board members releasing the following:


Mark Dingwall, board member of the Rangers Supporters Trust, told MSPs the Ibrox club's fans have felt particularly targeted by the proposed new law, which could see offenders spend as long as five years in prison and be banned from football grounds.

Mr Dingwall said: "What our fans and organisations have started to say is if we have to clean up our act, everyone else has to do the same."

He added: "So, therefore, everything that is offensive, by any football club, whether it's under regional rivalry, or under sectarian rivalry, or whether it's just winding up the opposition, then it's all fair game because if it's going to happen to us it's got to happen to everybody.

"There is almost an incitement to escalate the offensiveness. So, I can say that I am offended by a banner or a chant and I can go to the police and I can argue on the basis that 'I am genuinely offended about that and you have to do something about it, otherwise you will be subject disciplinary procedures'."


Although it's obvious that Rangers are going to be one of the most vocal oppositions to the Bill, I think their Supporters Trust make a very valid point - if they pass the Bill and declare open season, fans are going to look for "offensive gestures/banners/chants" in everything and will place ludicrous pressures on the authorities to do something, where genuine offense isn't necessarily present, thus claims will become such an overburden on authority resources, that it will become unfeasible. If they carry through and arrest/prosecute every single person who is deemed to have committed offensive behaviour, there'll be no space in Scottish prisons for those who really merit being there.

Offense is so subjective. Where there's no argument that sectarian chants aren't welcome by the majority of fans in Scotland, this bill doesn't discriminate and opens up so many avenues to be exploited.

I find myself thinking back to a comedy clip I seen not too long ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9HRLvfbauA

[Gatecrasher]

i dont see why people go to the football to be angry and offensive, why cant people just go to the football and have fun? living in a dream world i know but if this does go through then all the usual derby songs like the hibees are gay and hearts are peados etc (i cant stand that pish banter anyway) will be out the window and maybe some songs supporting the teams we support will come through instead,

[ScottB]

i dont see why people go to the football to be angry and offensive, why cant people just go to the football and have fun? living in a dream world i know but if this does go through then all the usual derby songs like the hibees are gay and hearts are peados etc (i cant stand that pish banter anyway) will be out the window and maybe some songs supporting the teams we support will come through instead,

Spot on really. :top marks

[Saorsa]

I think it should cover these three subjects racism, sectarianism, homophobia and stop there otherwise it will lead tae all sorts of problems, people could claim tae be offended by anything.

[Sylar]

I think it should cover these three subjects racism, sectarianism, homophobia and stop there otherwise it will lead tae all sorts of problems, people could claim tae be offended by anything.

Therein is my issue with it - those 3 categories aren't enough, but by just using "deemed offensive" as the broad jargon leaves so many areas where people genuinely COULD be offended, uncovered.

For example, none of the above covers a lot of Celtic's pro-IRA nonsense. As much as a lot of the Hibs support seemed to enjoy singing about paedophiles or refugees in years gone by, they're absolutely guaranteed to genuinely offend someone. Or the Aberdeen fans' songs about Neil Simpson or the Ibrox disaster... Pass it off as banter if you wish, but someone somewhere would complain under the new bill and quite rightfully expect action.

I'm not really sure what the answer is...

[The_Horde]

I think it should cover these three subjects racism, sectarianism, homophobia and stop there otherwise it will lead tae all sorts of problems, people could claim tae be offended by anything.

Football is all about rivalry and passion. Take away the hatred and you take away the majority of the atmosphere, plus people are not going to know what to chant any more. I've never been in trouble with the police in my life so can't imagine being jailed for singing "we hate jam tarts and we hate dundee", its stupid.

[green&left]

Anyone who gets offended at the football needs to get a life.

[hibsfootballer]

So for example;

The ref makes a cows backside of a decision (which happens on a weekly basis) The crowd turn and sing 'the referees a ' the people involved can be punished by police/banned from ER if a complaint is made?

I hate this sectairian that comes in to the scottish game and im sure no one does but there is other means and ways of stopping this.

Pathetic IMHO

[Saorsa]

Therein is my issue with it - those 3 categories aren't enough, but by just using "deemed offensive" as the broad jargon leaves so many areas where people genuinely COULD be offended, uncovered.

For example, none of the above covers a lot of Celtic's pro-IRA nonsense. As much as a lot of the Hibs support seemed to enjoy singing about paedophiles or refugees in years gone by, they're absolutely guaranteed to genuinely offend someone. Or the Aberdeen fans' songs about Neil Simpson or the Ibrox disaster... Pass it off as banter if you wish, but someone somewhere would complain under the new bill and quite rightfully expect action.

I'm not really sure what the answer is...I suppose you're right but the original came about because of the OF and the idea was just tae kick sectarianism out of fitba but everything and anything seems tae have been dragged in tae it, more than likely with the aim of the authorities no tae been seen just picking on the OF (poor wee souls that they are), even though they are the root of 99% of the ills of Scottish fitba. It could get really silly, what if somebody put up a banner saying Hibs are *****e (even in they currently are :rolleyes: ) and somebody complained about it being offensive. If they complained that it was offensive to them would the authorities have tae do something about it? I think a line has tae be drawn somewhere but you're correct it's a difficult one, where does the line get drawn? My personal opinion is the three things I mentioned, though you could maybe add political and that might cover Celtcs IRA songs. :dunno:

[Cabbage East]

Anyone who gets offended at the football needs to get a life.

Exactly. If this escalates then football will just end up being middle class punters and kids.

[marinello59]

I suppose you're right but the original came about because of the OF and the idea was just tae kick sectarianism out of fitba but everything and anything seems tae have been dragged in tae it, more than likely with the aim of the authorities no tae been seen just picking on the OF (poor wee souls that they are), even though they are the root of 99% of the ills of Scottish fitba. It could get really silly, what if somebody put up a banner saying Hibs are *****e (even in they currently are :rolleyes: ) and somebody complained about it being offensive. If they complained that it was offensive to them would the authorities have tae do something about it? I think a line has tae be drawn somewhere but you're correct it's a difficult one, where does the line get drawn? My personal opinion is the three things I mentioned.

That might be part of it. Football fans have always been an easy target for those in Government though. They love to be seen to be ''doing something''.

[marinello59]

Anyone who gets offended at the football needs to get a life.

That probably means me then. I find racist chanting in particular pretty offensive. Thankfully inside a football stadium is now one of the least likely places to encounter open racist abuse. I guess we have to thank a lot of people who needed to get a life for that. Football can be a force for good and the 'Show Racism the Red Card' campaign is one area that has been proved in.

[DaveF]

That might be part of it. Football fans have always been an easy target for those in Government though. They love to be seen to be ''doing something''.

I have a solution. Let's all act like Rugby fans, dance on tables in pubs and clubs, be rude to bar staff and claim it's all middle class high jinks.

Simples.

[Saorsa]

I have a solution. Let's all act like Rugby fans, dance on tables in pubs and clubs, be rude to bar staff and claim it's all middle class high jinks.

Simples.:thumbsup:

[marinello59]

I have a solution. Let's all act like Rugby fans, dance on tables in pubs and clubs, be rude to bar staff and claim it's all middle class high jinks.

Simples.

I lived in Twickenham for a year. Awful behaviour from Rugby fans on a regular basis yet no calls for something to be done about them. The only conclusion I can draw is that the drive to do 'something' about fitba fans is driven by a large dose of snobbery.

[Eganov]

This box ticking stuff from the parliament really annoys me. There is already legislation in place to deal with these things and you have ALWAYS been able to imprison someone for up to 5 years for a Breach of the Peace with or without the aggravators for football etc.

There is still a problem with the Police... Edinburgh Police will generally do what's expected of them - once the legislation is in place we can all expect extra scrutiny at games and there will be no tolerance. But the Glasgow police have so much prejudice towards individual religions (and therefore Celtic and Rangers) that they will not pick up on any of the described behaviour, whether maliciously or innocently (culturally).

[NGP]

[QUOTE=Eganov;2909158]This box ticking stuff from the parliament really annoys me. There is already legislation in place to deal with these things and you have ALWAYS been able to imprison someone for up to 5 years for a Breach of the Peace with or without the aggravators for football etc.

This is the problem I have. There are already laws within society and rules/by-laws within football grounds, yet the Scottish govt throw money inventing new laws that on the face of it, appear difficult to implement - what is offensive? - that arguement in court could go on for years.

If I'm not at the football and I start shouting general abuse (sectarian, sexist, racist, homophobic etc)
I will get into trouble from the law, my employers, banned from the pub/shopping centre etc - wherever I am displaying this kind of behaviour - so why should it be different at the football. Yes there has to be thought / felixibility in some of the 'traditional footy behaviour' but to event new laws to prevent / punish crimes that are already covered by existing legislation both in society and with football just seems daft.

[.Sean.]

Pathetic. Almost as pathetic as folk getting upset about chants those bad men indulge in at the football. If you don't like it **** off and take up a tame hobby like croquet or bowls. Ludicrous to even suggest singing a song that may be deemed offensive could see you ending up with five years in the slammer - kiddy fiddlers and rapists get let off with lighter sentances ffs.

[Dinkydoo]

This doesn't look like it's ever going to get dealt with properly.

It's typical really, 'lets make things more difficult than they need to be so the real issues are never fully addressed'.

Anyone see any similarities between this and the case of the idiot who tried to get at Lennon?

[Geo_1875]

I think the problem here will be that enforcement will be in the hands of the most racist, sectarian and homophobic organisation in the country.

[LancashireHibby]

I think the problem here will be that enforcement will be in the hands of the most racist, sectarian and homophobic organisation in the country.

Rangers Football Club? :greengrin

[EasterRoad4Ever]

Typical politicians that have no understanding of the subject trying to legislate for something that few football fans complain about. If they cannot pin a simple charge on one guy who openly attacks a manager live on Tv, then they have no chance of enforcing any of this crap. It smacks of being seen to be doing something without actually thinking first.

[Dashing Bob S]

I don't know if I'm being cynical here, but I think they know exactly what they are doing by introducing this unworkable nonsense. They have no intention of tackling the real problem of Scottish football and society, which is sectarian bigotry, perpetuated by two clubs who stand most to gain from it in financial terms, and have built dynasty's on it.

Introducing all the other red herrings merely muddies the waters. Should hate speech at football based on racism and homophobia be a thing of the past? Almost certainly. But these are now almost non-existent in England, or done with a tongue-in-cheek humour and not the rabid hysteria as practiced in Scotland. That's because we've learned this crazed, demented stuff from the OF and their 'proddies and papes' nonsense.

Tackle sectarianism and the heat will go out of the other issues, and if it doesn't, then legislate separately.

A lot of politicians in this country advocate adopting worthy practices from other very different societies, while showing little or no spine in tackling our own running sore of sectarianism.

[sidjames]

I don't know if I'm being cynical here, but I think they know exactly what they are doing by introducing this unworkable nonsense. They have no intention of tackling the real problem of Scottish football and society, which is sectarian bigotry, perpetuated by two clubs who stand most to gain from it in financial terms, and have built dynasty's on it.




Introducing all the other red herrings merely muddies the waters. Should hate speech at football based on racism and homophobia be a thing of the past? Almost certainly. But these are now almost non-existent in England, or done with a tongue-in-cheek humour and not the rabid hysteria as practiced in Scotland. That's because we've learned this crazed, demented stuff from the OF and their 'proddies and papes' nonsense.

Tackle sectarianism and the heat will go out of the other issues, and if it doesn't, then legislate separately.

A lot of politicians in this country advocate adopting worthy practices from other very different societies, while showing little or no spine in tackling our own running sore of sectarianism.

You are sadly right. The fundamental thrust of the drive to tackle the blight of sectarianism has been lost in the fog of political fudging. Scotland sadly has raised its people with ingrained cultural divides masquerading as "traditions". Anyone with any belief can find offence with those not corresponding to their own. I take great offence every day to others, no doubt them to me.

[ManBearPig]

Can I make a point this law is only ever so slightly different from the Breach of the peace law. All that is required is a complainer to state they have been offended or placed in state of fear or alarm. Its all a political move and a fine way to waster taxpayers money.

:not worthI love that comedy sketch very clever and apt.

[ancient hibee]

If I suggest the ref is a useless b***ard will that be deemed offensive to all children born out of wedlock.

If I suggest that the ref is a useless p**f will that be deemed offensive to gays who don't want to be compared to refs or the ref who doesn't want to be called a p**f-if he is gay is it still offensive?

[Eganov]

If I suggest the ref is a useless b***ard will that be deemed offensive to all children born out of wedlock.

If I suggest that the ref is a useless p**f will that be deemed offensive to gays who don't want to be compared to refs or the ref who doesn't want to be called a p**f-if he is gay is it still offensive?

And... if the ref is offended by being referred to as gay does that make the ref homophobic?

[SanFranHibs]

Anyone who gets offended at the football needs to get a life.

What a lot of nonsense !!!

As the song says, "Watergate does not bother me, does your conscience bother you?"

[down-the-slope]

Exactly. If this escalates then football will just end up being middle class punters and kids.

I think you will find that there are some of the worst offenders in that social group...where it seems to be beleived that behaviour that they would never engage in the rest of their life - voilence / bigotry / sectarianism etc etc is somehow OK under cover of watching football.....:rolleyes:

[Sir David Gray]

It's soon going to get to the stage in this country, not just at a football match but in life in general, where people are going to be frightened to open their mouths, in case they "offend" someone and end up in prison.

If you are just being rude or offensive for the sake of it and are deliberately targeting someone and bullying them, then I am all for that being stamped out. However, if you are making a genuine point about something you believe in and someone chooses to take offence at what you say then I can't see why these people should be arrested or punished in any way.

My fear is that this new legislation will severely impinge on the right to freedom of speech and, at the end of the day, as long as you are not encouraging violence, I personally feel that is the most important right that citizens of a democratic country can enjoy.

Salmond will need to be awfully careful with this new Bill.

[Skanko79]

Its just going to drive more punters away, part and parcel of going to the football is to be able to have a sing song and a wee bit of banter which works both ways with the opposing team, i can honestly say ive never been offended by anything thats been shouted or sung at a football match and that even goes for trips to ibrox and parkhead. If you are going to let things like that upset and annoy you then you are watching the wrong sport. I remember being at wembley in 99 for the return leg of the scotland v england play off, our seats in the scotland end were right beside the cordon that separated the scotland and england fans, obviously this was well policed and i stood there with my dad and sister, some of the stuff that was being shouted (in front of the police who found it all highly amusing) was nothing short of disgusting, but bugger it, its scotland v england and if im going to go to a game like that and get upset because someone is calling me a scottish c*** then there is something wrong. but regardless of the size or importance of the game if that element is taken away from football it will be a very sad day.