SDL Edinburgh 10/9/11

[1two]

Can anyone confirm that these ****bags are marching in Edinburgh on Saturday?
I've been asked to attend a counter demo (the mound at 11am) but I've not heard much else about it???

[offshorehibby]

I've heard through he grape vine they wont be appearing but this might just be a ploy to put people of the sent. I ended up on the counter demo last time and it ended up in a bit of a stand off on the Royal Mile.

[Scouse Hibee]

Can anyone confirm that these ****bags are marching in Edinburgh on Saturday?
I've been asked to attend a counter demo (the mound at 11am) but I've not heard much else about it???

Only they can confirm what they plan to do, permission for their march has been refused by ECC so whether they decide on a static demo or march without permission is up to them! Strangely permission for the counter march by UAF was still being considered by ECC!

[hibsbollah]

Got the facebook invite, which had more comments from SDL types than counter demonstrators. Foot of the mound, id imagine the police will be well aware of it too.

[Ants]

Extracted from LBP website:-

http://www.lbp.police.uk/press_release/articles/2011/September/02/1a.html

As you may be aware the Scottish Defence League (SDL) submitted a notification of a public procession on the 10 September 2011 to the City of Edinburgh Council. This was subsequently considered by the Regulatory Committee of the Council who made the decision to prohibit the procession.

Following the decision of the Regulatory Committee in respect of the SDL application, a separate application was submitted to the City of Edinburgh Council by Unite against Fascism (UAF), a group established in direct response to SDL/EDL ideology, for an anti racism march and rally in Edinburgh on the same date, 10 September, 2011. The City of Edinburgh Council is currently considering this application.

Lothian and Borders Police will play a vital role in maintaining public safety and security in addition to facilitating any peaceful protest and it is essential that we provide a reassurance message across all our communities emphasising that we are fully prepared for these events. The Force has undertaken a significant amount of planning and preparation and a detailed policing plan is in place to ensure public safety on the day.

Our priorities for the day will be to ensure that:

The Police operation will be conducted with the aim of upholding the law, maintaining order and protecting life and property in order to:

Ensure that public order and public safety is maintained;
Facilitate the rights of freedom of assembly and association and freedom of speech;
Provide public reassurance and maintain community confidence;
Minimise disruption to the people and traffic within the City of Edinburgh (and elsewhere), enabling day to day business to continue and a return to normality to be achieved as soon as reasonably practicable;
Provide an appropriate and proportionate response to any anti social behaviour and criminal activity, bringing offenders to justice during or after the event;

Prevent crime and disorder and secure evidence to prosecute those who engage in crime and disorder.
A number of organisations and individuals have voiced their concerns about the SDL and the UAF has applied for permission to stage an anti-racism march and rally. Lothian and Borders Police will take robust action against any disorder or unlawful actions.



Officers from this Force will be speaking to a number of community groups and organisations in the build up to the 10th September 2011, in order to disseminate this message as widely as possible and I would encourage you to engage with them. I would greatly appreciate your assistance in this matter.



Iain Livingstone
Assistant Chief Constable
Lothian and Borders Police

[1two]

Does anyone think it would be a good move by the council to block an SDL march but allow another which had originally been set up as a counter demo?

I'm not to sure.

[RyeSloan]

Does anyone think it would be a good move by the council to block an SDL march but allow another which had originally been set up as a counter demo?

I'm not to sure.

I suppose on what grounds they are reviewing the application on. I see the SDL march was refused because of the following:

The City of Edinburgh Council's Licensing Sub-Committee today took the decision to prohibit a procession planned by the Scottish Defence League.

Cllr Rob Munn, Convener of the Licensing Sub-Committee said:

"The Council holds dear the values of freedom of speech, of the right to assemble and march, and we would go to great lengths to protect those rights.

"We have taken great care to consider all of the issues raised by Council officials, Lothian & Borders Police, the SDL and by objectors. Today's decision was wholly based on the information available to us regarding the potential impact on public safety, public order and possible disruption to the life of the community.

"We take these decisions on behalf of the people of Edinburgh with the safety of the city in mind. We haven't been convinced, on the basis of the information provided to us, that our concerns about safety, order and disruption can be addressed and resolved."

The committee's decision was unanimous.

While I have no time at all for the SDL I find the above somewhat vague...will be interesting to see the decision for the counter demo

[hibsbollah]

Passed off without incident. 250 nazi twats involved.
http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/east-central/269741-far-right-protest-passes-without-incident/

The most pointless and unnecessary cancellation of a Hibs game i can ever remember.

[steakbake]

Passed off without incident. 250 nazi twats involved.
http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/east-central/269741-far-right-protest-passes-without-incident/

The most pointless and unnecessary cancellation of a Hibs game i can ever remember.

What about the Motherwell game where they "forgot" to turn the undersoil heating on at Fir Park?

[greenlex]

What about the Motherwell game where they "forgot" to turn the undersoil heating on at Fir Park?
They beat Hearts in the CIS Cup semi the following midweek at ER so the rest from that game was anything but pointless. :greengrin

[magpie1892]

Passed off without incident. 250 nazi twats involved.


Didn't look to be as many as that, nor would I have said there were 150 SDL.

[Skanko79]

A busload of them got picked up outside the albion bar and taken to the jewel where they met with several of the EDL's "top boys". Was told there were over 300 stopped from making it to the march, There were 5 or 6 times more police on duty for this one than there was for the one a few years back when the ammount of SDL and EDL on show that day ran into the thousands.

[hibsbollah]

Didn't look to be as many as that, nor would I have said there were 150 SDL.

...If thats the case moving the game to facilitate it seems even more ludicrous.

[magpie1892]

...If thats the case moving the game to facilitate it seems even more ludicrous.

I would tend to agree, were it not for the fact that I've never seen as many police in one place at one time other than in London - and the Met has a fair bit more latency than L&B.

Shocking that either group was allowed to take to the streets. The vast majority of people are just not interested in either the extreme left or right - hence 'extreme'. (Though, at the risk of waking the Kraken, there are several arguments to suggest that BNP/EDL etc are just extreme left with racism).

Beyond dispute, is that both groups are unsavoury.

[Betty Boop]

The Battle of Cable Street. (great footage)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozndljflUgU

[magpie1892]

The Battle of Cable Street. (great footage)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozndljflUgU

Fabby. Just what we need in Edinburgh.

[Hibrandenburg]

I would tend to agree, were it not for the fact that I've never seen as many police in one place at one time other than in London - and the Met has a fair bit more latency than L&B.

Shocking that either group was allowed to take to the streets. The vast majority of people are just not interested in either the extreme left or right - hence 'extreme'. (Though, at the risk of waking the Kraken, there are several arguments to suggest that BNP/EDL etc are just extreme left with racism).
Beyond dispute, is that both groups are unsavoury.

Oh boy, now you've gone and done it. I'd get my tin hat on if I was you. :tin hat:

[hibsbollah]

I would tend to agree, were it not for the fact that I've never seen as many police in one place at one time other than in London - and the Met has a fair bit more latency than L&B.

Shocking that either group was allowed to take to the streets. The vast majority of people are just not interested in either the extreme left or right - hence 'extreme'. (Though, at the risk of waking the Kraken, there are several arguments to suggest that BNP/EDL etc are just extreme left with racism).

Beyond dispute, is that both groups are unsavoury.

There is nothing 'unsavoury' about protesting against fascism. Trying to equate the two groups as somehow two sides of the same coin is like comparing the French Resistance with t
he Vichy militia (and dont give me that stupid goodwins law pish).

[hibsbollah]

Oh boy, now you've gone and done it. I'd get my tin hat on if I was you. :tin hat:

I wouldnt have thought he'd need a tin hat. Some things are so self-evidently stupid they dont need responding to :greengrin

[1two]

I would tend to agree, were it not for the fact that I've never seen as many police in one place at one time other than in London - and the Met has a fair bit more latency than L&B.

Shocking that either group was allowed to take to the streets. The vast majority of people are just not interested in either the extreme left or right - hence 'extreme'. (Though, at the risk of waking the Kraken, there are several arguments to suggest that BNP/EDL etc are just extreme left with racism).

Beyond dispute, is that both groups are unsavoury.

What are you slavering about?
Unsavoury is an understatement as far as the sdl/edl/bnp go but the other side are anti fascists...
What's unsavoury about anti-fascism?

[(((Fergus)))]

What are you slavering about?
Unsavoury is an understatement as far as the sdl/edl/bnp go but the other side are anti fascists...
What's unsavoury about anti-fascism?

The other side could also be fascists by another name. WWII in eastern Europe was an example of fascism vs fascism. The BNP/EDL/SDL are certainly unsavoury but are they actually fascists? Do they seek a totalitarian single-party state or a single ruling ideology? Maybe they do in the form of nostalgia. On the other side you have marxism and political islam, both of which meet this definition of fascism, i.e., anti-liberalism or "we know what's good for you, do what we say".

[Killiehibbie]

What are you slavering about?
Unsavoury is an understatement as far as the sdl/edl/bnp go but the other side are anti fascists...
What's unsavoury about anti-fascism?Look at the political groups who form a big part of the anti fascist marches and tell me they're not unsavoury.

[hibsbollah]

Look at the political groups who form a big part of the anti fascist marches and tell me they're not unsavoury. What, like Unite Against Facism, who demonstrated on Saturday and which is supported by such dangerous extreme lefties as the Conservative Party and the Lib Dems, as well as the usual mad militants such as teaching and public sector unions.If youre not going to go on an anti-fascist march because youre lazy, or think politics is for nobs, fair enough. However, I suspect a fair few folk like to discredit the movement because they have some sympathy with the fascist groups in question.

[joe breezy]

I don't support the EDL because I believe most if them are pretty thick and many of them are racist but when it comes to fascism I believe that militant Islam is more fascist than what the EDL preach.

Fundamental Islam believes wholeheartedly in the power of Allah and who everyone should 'submit' to, in the same way that fascism believes in the power of the state

[Killiehibbie]

What, like Unite Against Facism, who demonstrated on Saturday and which is supported by such dangerous extreme lefties as the Conservative Party and the Lib Dems, as well as the usual mad militants such as teaching and public sector unions.If youre not going to go on an anti-fascist march because youre lazy, or think politics is for nobs, fair enough. However, I suspect a fair few folk like to discredit the movement because they have some sympathy with the fascist groups in question.Sorry I must've been watching something different for years showing all sorts of thugs only interested in finding a battle. Both sides have quite a few people who only go to these marches for a pagger and have no real interest in politics. Of course you know if anybody doesn't like one side they must be sympathisers for the other it can't be possible to think they're all ********s.

[magpie1892]

There is nothing 'unsavoury' about protesting against fascism. Trying to equate the two groups as somehow two sides of the same coin is like comparing the French Resistance with t
he Vichy militia (and dont give me that stupid goodwins law pish).

That's true (first sentence, rest is incoherent). Though what 'protesting against fascism' has to do with the woman beaters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcG2C22okE) and cackling thugs of UAF, I know not.

Like I said, both groups make my skin crawl and I'm missing the part where I said they were two sides of the same coin..?

[magpie1892]

What are you slavering about?
Unsavoury is an understatement as far as the sdl/edl/bnp go but the other side are anti fascists...
What's unsavoury about anti-fascism?

UAF are hypocritical, violent criminals. Because they have 'anti-fascist' in their name, that makes them anti fascists?

Naive, much?

Both groups = **** that waste police time, taxpayers' money and should be washed off the streets with a hose and dettol.

[Twa Cairpets]

That's true (first sentence, rest is incoherent). Though what 'protesting against fascism' has to do with the woman beaters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcG2C22okE) and cackling thugs of UAF, I know not.

Like I said, both groups make my skin crawl and I'm missing the part where I said they were two sides of the same coin..?

I would have thought that "Beyond dispute, is that both groups are unsavoury." could be regarded as somewhat of a synonymous phrase...

[1two]

UAF are hypocritical, violent criminals. Because they have 'anti-fascist' in their name, that makes them anti fascists?

Naive, much?

Both groups = **** that waste police time, taxpayers' money and should be washed off the streets with a hose and dettol.

Please explain how you come to the conclusion that the UAF are in fact fascists?

Hypocritical violent criminals? Again, please explain.

Also are you a BNP,SDL,EDL sympathiser?

[Betty Boop]

.
UAF are hypocritical, violent criminals. Because they have 'anti-fascist' in their name, that makes them anti fascists?

Naive, much?

Both groups = **** that waste police time, taxpayers' money and should be washed off the streets with a hose and dettol.

Those who peddle racism, hate and division, must be challenged at every opportunity. I can't understand why you would have a problem with that.

[Hibrandenburg]

I wouldnt have thought he'd need a tin hat. Some things are so self-evidently stupid they dont need responding to :greengrin

Days of silence and then BOOM! Post explosion.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't support the EDL because I believe most if them are pretty thick and many of them are racist but when it comes to fascism I believe that militant Islam is more fascist than what the EDL preach.

Fundamental Islam believes wholeheartedly in the power of Allah and who everyone should 'submit' to, in the same way that fascism believes in the power of the state

Nod nod. Islam is the new fascism.

[khib70]

.

Those who peddle racism, hate and division, must be challenged at every opportunity. I can't understand why you would have a problem with that.


Nod nod. Islam is the new fascism.

Given some of Magpie's previous posts on immigration etc, I can actually understand why he has a problem with that.

And Islam is not, by any rational standard, the "new Fascism". Fundamentalist Islam probably is, but to label one of the worlds largest religions in that way, is astonishingly simplistic. Hitler, after all, was a professing Christian. There are avowedly Christian extremists in the USA every bit as demented and murderous as al Qaeda or the Taliban. Do we assume from this that all Christians/Austrians/Americans are fascists?

Ony if we're being incredibly silly and simplictic, or have other, more sinister motives.

[RyeSloan]

Given some of Magpie's previous posts on immigration etc, I can actually understand why he has a problem with that.

And Islam is not, by any rational standard, the "new Fascism". Fundamentalist Islam probably is, but to label one of the worlds largest religions in that way, is astonishingly simplistic. Hitler, after all, was a professing Christian. There are avowedly Christian extremists in the USA every bit as demented and murderous as al Qaeda or the Taliban. Do we assume from this that all Christians/Austrians/Americans are fascists?

Ony if we're being incredibly silly and simplictic, or have other, more sinister motives.

I know what you are trying to say but is there really organised christian extemists planting IED's all over the states or organising public executions at their local ball park?

Saw the second part of the bomb squad last night and the bravery of those young men was just unbelievable but worse was the fact that the Talibans IED's are so indicriminate, they stated that over 1,000 civililans killed and 10,000 injured by taliban IED's in 2010.

[1two]

Given some of Magpie's previous posts on immigration etc, I can actually understand why he has a problem with that.

And Islam is not, by any rational standard, the "new Fascism". Fundamentalist Islam probably is, but to label one of the worlds largest religions in that way, is astonishingly simplistic. Hitler, after all, was a professing Christian. There are avowedly Christian extremists in the USA every bit as demented and murderous as al Qaeda or the Taliban. Do we assume from this that all Christians/Austrians/Americans are fascists?

Ony if we're being incredibly silly and simplictic, or have other, more sinister motives.

You've missed the point completely.

In Edinburgh last weekend we had two groups;
SDL -dress it up however you want but they're a racist organisation
UAF - an anti-fascist organisation who represent many different anti-fascist/anti-racist groups.

Magpie states 'both groups are unsavoury'. Nothing was mentioned about extremist christians or americans or muslim extremists for that matter.

[hibsdaft]

Nod nod. Islam is the new fascism.

islam is not very new.

[khib70]

You've missed the point completely.

In Edinburgh last weekend we had two groups;
SDL -dress it up however you want but they're a racist organisation
UAF - an anti-fascist organisation who represent many different anti-fascist/anti-racist groups.

Magpie states 'both groups are unsavoury'. Nothing was mentioned about extremist christians or americans or muslim extremists for that matter.

No I haven't

The statement that "Islam is the new fascism" was by Hiberlin, and it was that I was responding to.

The point about magpie refers to several posts he made on an earlier thread about immigration which I and some others considered to be racist.

[magpie1892]

.

Those who peddle racism, hate and division, must be challenged at every opportunity. I can't understand why you would have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with that. Why would you think I did? Because I think UAF are ****?

[magpie1892]

Days of silence and then BOOM! Post explosion.

Took a while.

[1two]

I don't have a problem with that. Why would you think I did? Because I think UAF are ****?

You've still avoided answering why you think the UAF (a organisation which unites several anti-fascist/anti-racist organisations under one banner) are ****?

And what's the previous violence and criminal activity you refer to?

[hibsdaft]

this "two sides of the same coin" argument on UAF and EDL is disgusting. UAF are a pretty ***** organisation, but with the EDL you're talking about divisive people who were pally with and talk in the same language of violence as that Norwegian serial child killer. who was an EDL contact and supporter.

EDL and al quida - that's two sides of the same coin imo.

[magpie1892]

You've still avoided answering why you think the UAF (a organisation which unites several anti-fascist/anti-racist organisations under one banner) are ****?

And what's the previous violence and criminal activity you refer to?

You've still avoided reading the thread it seems, for if you had, you'd see a very early post from myself about UAF with a link, etc.

[magpie1892]

this "two sides of the same coin" argument on UAF and EDL is disgusting. UAF are a pretty ***** organisation, but with the EDL you're talking about divisive people who were pally with and talk in the same language of violence as that Norwegian serial child killer. who was an EDL contact and supporter.

EDL and al quida - that's two sides of the same coin imo.

I'm not sure there's anyone actually made that argument on this thread though. I just said they were both repellent, which is not even close.

[1two]

You've still avoided reading the thread it seems, for if you had, you'd see a very early post from myself about UAF with a link, etc.

There's no link to anything that suggests uAF violence or criminal activity apart from one video you put up where a man describes a woman, apparently EDL, who was attacked???

Now As disgusting as this mans story sounds, it does not confirm or even suggest that this was carried out by UAF and even if it had, it's one or two individuals.

Afterall, you wouldn't suggest all hibs fans are mindless violent casuals just because we have a few ********s in our support.

Say you are right and there happened to be some idiot claiming to be a UAF protester who has battered an innocent protestor from the edl.
It's an individual case and does not reflect UAF as a group.
The difference is that the edl/sdl/bnp hold a collective view that is both racist and 'unsavoury'.
The same cannot be said about UAF.

[Killiehibbie]

There's no link to anything that suggests uAF violence or criminal activity apart from one video you put up where a man describes a woman, apparently EDL, who was attacked???

Now As disgusting as this mans story sounds, it does not confirm or even suggest that this was carried out by UAF and even if it had, it's one or two individuals.

Afterall, you wouldn't suggest all hibs fans are mindless violent casuals just because we have a few ********s in our support.

Say you are right and there happened to be some idiot claiming to be a UAF protester who has battered an innocent protestor from the edl.
It's an individual case and does not reflect UAF as a group.
The difference is that the edl/sdl/bnp hold a collective view that is both racist and 'unsavoury'.
The same cannot be said about UAF.Why did Searchlight withdraw support for uaf?

[1two]

Why did Searchlight withdraw support for uaf?

Not sure.
They had different views on the most effective strategies moving forward??

[Killiehibbie]

Not sure.
They had different views on the most effective strategies moving forward??Something to do with not wanting to be associated with the kind of people attaching themselves to the movement.

[CFC]

Have the UAF ever mobilised against radical/fundamentalist Islamic groups?

[1two]

Have the UAF ever mobilised against radical/fundamentalist Islamic groups?

Not that I'm aware of

Then again I'm not aware of any radical/fundamentalist Islamic groups

[Betty Boop]

Something to do with not wanting to be associated with the kind of people attaching themselves to the movement.

Here is Searchlight's resignation letter, and also UAF's response. I don't see any reference to 'the kind of people attaching themselves to the movement'. Looks like differing opinions on strategy to me.


http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/politics/UAF.html

[CFC]

Islam4UK although now proscribed could fairly be described as a fundamentally fascist Islamic organisation. Their stated aim was to supplant British law with Islamic law. They were condemned by moderate Muslim groups but I never saw a condemnation from the self styled "Anti fascists". I do stand to be corrected on this however.

[1two]

Islam4UK although now proscribed could fairly be described as a fundamentally fascist Islamic organisation. Their stated aim was to supplant British law with Islamic law. They were condemned by moderate Muslim groups but I never saw a condemnation from the self styled "Anti fascists". I do stand to be corrected on this however.

Is that 10 strong group that protested at wooton basset or wherever it's called?

No idea if UAF have publicly condemned the group but islam4uk don't exactly have the support and following that would rally a counter protest. Compared to edl that is

Are you suggesting UAF are Muslim extremist sympathisers?

[Killiehibbie]

Here is Searchlight's resignation letter, and also UAF's response. I don't see any reference to 'the kind of people attaching themselves to the movement'. Looks like differing opinions on strategy to me.


http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/politics/UAF.htmlThey say 'we recognise there are good anti fascists within uaf'. Does that mean not all are good and some are bad? Just because someone wants to fight fascism doesn't make them good guys.
In reply it looks as though uaf only exist to fight the bnp/edl types.

[magpie1892]

Have the UAF ever mobilised against radical/fundamentalist Islamic groups?

Of course not, but you know this.

[1two]

They say 'we recognise there are good anti fascists within uaf'. Does that mean not all are good and some are bad? Just because someone wants to fight fascism doesn't make them good guys.
In reply it looks as though uaf only exist to fight the bnp/edl types.

That's completely not the case though, is it?
The fact that Bnp/edl are the biggest uk racist/fascist organisation surely explains why they get a lot of attention from anti-fascists???

[1two]

Of course not, but you know this.

As I've KH already do you think this suggests UAF are pro Islamic extremists?

[Killiehibbie]

As I've KH already do you think this suggests UAF are pro Islamic extremists?They should be out fighting extremists of all types as the war is not fought on a single front.

[CFC]

Are you suggesting UAF are Muslim extremist sympathisers?


Who knows?

The gadgie at the start of this video chants "democracy go to hell". Have the UAF counter demoed against these democracy hating bampots?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86pkqpKkdGM



All I'm asking for is a wee bit of consistency from the UAF here.

[Betty Boop]

/11
Who knows?

The gadgie at the start of this video chants "democracy go to hell". Have the UAF counter demoed against these democracy hating bampots?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86pkqpKkdGM



All I'm asking for is a wee bit of consistency from the UAF here.

Two sets of 'bampots' hellbent on disrupting a memorial service to promote their extreme views. Of course the fact that a third group Muslims Against Extemism also protested against both groups failed to make headline news.

[Dashing Bob S]

I watched some footage of an SDL march on You Tube and I came to the conclusion that rather than being banned from marching, they should be compelled to do so, in the interests of public entertainment.

I've never seen such a collection of ******s, losers, jaikeys and child molesters walking around in one group.

(Apologies to any watching Yams who are season ticket holders in the Wheatfield, but I'm sticking to my guns here.)

[ballengeich]

I watched some footage of an SDL march on You Tube and I came to the conclusion that rather than being banned from marching, they should be compelled to do so, in the interests of public entertainment.

I've never seen such a collection of ******s, losers, jaikeys and child molesters walking around in one group.

(Apologies to any watching Yams who are season ticket holders in the Wheatfield, but I'm sticking to my guns here.)

Your apologies may be unnecessary Bob. I suspect the two groups are not entirely discrete.

[Dashing Bob S]

Your apologies may be unnecessary Bob. I suspect the two groups are not entirely discrete.

I was actually thinking that as I sent the missive away.

So apologies to any visiting Yams if I've somehow implied the reverse. There surely can't be TWO hopeless bands of reprobates on that scale in Scottish society. My patriotism refuses to let me believe that.

[CFC]

/11

Of course the fact that a third group Muslims Against Extemism also protested against both groups failed to make headline news.

I have no doubt moderate Muslims find these extremists abhorrent as I already noted with regard to Islam4UK:


They were condemned by moderate Muslim groups


The question remains, where were the UAF and what is their stance on militant Islam?

Also as a sidebar my wife is an American citizen and my kids hold dual British/American citizenship, I would like to know why radical Muslims were allowed to protest on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 in the vicinity of the US Embassy in London during a memorial service WITH COMPLETE IMPUNITY (note the EDL were sectioned and lifted whereas MAC were free to chant their sectarian pish unabated).

It shows a complete lack of consideration for the families of the victims of 9/11.

[1two]

I have no doubt moderate Muslims find these extremists abhorrent as I already noted with regard to Islam4UK:



The question remains, where were the UAF and what is their stance on militant Islam?

Also as a sidebar my wife is an American citizen and my kids hold dual British/American citizenship, I would like to know why radical Muslims were allowed to protest on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 in the vicinity of the US Embassy in London during a memorial service WITH COMPLETE IMPUNITY (note the EDL were sectioned and lifted whereas MAC were free to chant their sectarian pish unabated).

It shows a complete lack of consideration for the families of the victims of 9/11.

Totally agree with that and you've maybe answered your own question. Perhaps uaf felt they should not attend out of respect?

[Betty Boop]

I have no doubt moderate Muslims find these extremists abhorrent as I already noted with regard to Islam4UK:



The question remains, where were the UAF and what is their stance on militant Islam?

Also as a sidebar my wife is an American citizen and my kids hold dual British/American citizenship, I would like to know why radical Muslims were allowed to protest on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 in the vicinity of the US Embassy in London during a memorial service WITH COMPLETE IMPUNITY (note the EDL were sectioned and lifted whereas MAC were free to chant their sectarian pish unabated).

It shows a complete lack of consideration for the families of the victims of 9/11.

Throughout this thread I have yet to see you condemn the actions of the Nazi lovers, you are kidding your self on if you think the EDL only speak out against 'militant Islam'. They have decided to single out Muslim communities up and down the land, in the guise of protecting the UK from militant Islam and Sharia law. Its garbage, but I suspect you know that. Are there large groups of Muslim extremists protesting up and down the country ? You seem to think that UAF some how condones Muslim extremism, but apart from Anjem Choudary and his small band of supporters, is there any evidence of radical Islamists taking to the streets, spouting hatred and division. Maybe the reason the EDL were penned in was because of their previous violence throwing sticks, smoke bombs and causing mayhem in towns and cities across the country. Scenes like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIr3HV-TuOs&feature=related If you think decent people who march with UAF are in any way comparable with these knuckledraggers, you are so wrong IMO.

[CFC]

Throughout this thread I have yet to see you condemn the actions of the Nazi lovers.

Who are the Nazi lovers that you are referring to? Eva Braun? In have no time for the EDL, they are essentially the same demographic/gene pool that caused the abandonment of the England Ireland match in 1995.


you are kidding your self on if you think the EDL only speak out against 'militant Islam'. They have decided to single out Muslim communities up and down the land, in the guise of protecting the UK from militant Islam and Sharia law. Its garbage, but I suspect you know that. Are there large groups of Muslim extremists protesting up and down the country.

^ None of this excerpt makes any sense based on anything that I have posted.

[/QUOTE]
You seem to think that UAF some how condones Muslim extremism.

Please provide a quote from me saying that I believe that the UAF condones Muslim extremism. Rather, I stated that there is no way to know what the UAF's position on Muslim extremism since they have NEVER made that clear. I've noticed Palestinian and Pakistan flags at UAF demo's, what there relevance was to an organisation that proclaims to fight against fascism in Britain I have no idea, perhaps you could enlighten me?
[/QUOTE]


but apart from Anjem Choudary and his small band of supporters, is there any evidence of radical Islamists taking to the streets, spouting hatred and division.

How many groups of fundamentalists does there have to be to warrant legitimate concern? 3? 7? 14? Please let me know the number. Regarding "small band" remind me of how many people it took to undertake the 9/11 attacks? How many were involved in the murder of 50 people in London on 7/7? How many more terrorist atacks do there have to be for the threat of radical Islam to be taken seriously?



Maybe the reason the EDL were penned in was because of their previous violence throwing sticks, smoke bombs and causing mayhem in towns and cities across the country. Scenes like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIr3HV-TuOs&feature=related

Possibly, still doesnt explain why Muslims Against Crusades were allowed to spit their sectarian bile. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander, why one hate group should receive special treatment over another is illogical to me.



If you think decent people who march with UAF are in any way comparable with these knuckledraggers, you are so wrong IMO.

One of the top organisers in the UAF was recently (as in the last year or two) convicted of assault on a police officer. UAF demonstrators have been arrested on demonstrations for public order offences, violent disorder and the like. Please don't try and equate the UAF to an organisation like the SCLC which pursued equal rights for African Americans in the Jim Crow South through nonviolent means.



Edit -
Perhaps uaf felt they should not attend out of respect?

Good point and you are right on that it was better that they didnt attend.

[Betty Boop]

Who are the Nazi lovers that you are referring to? Eva Braun? In have no time for the EDL, they are essentially the same demographic/gene pool that caused the abandonment of the England Ireland match in 1995.


^ None of this excerpt makes any sense based on anything that I have posted.


Please provide a quote from me saying that I believe that the UAF condones Muslim extremism. Rather, I stated that there is no way to know what the UAF's position on Muslim extremism since they have NEVER made that clear. I've noticed Palestinian and Pakistan flags at UAF demo's, what there relevance was to an organisation that proclaims to fight against fascism in Britain I have no idea, perhaps you could enlighten me?
[/QUOTE]


How many groups of fundamentalists does there have to be to warrant legitimate concern? 3? 7? 14? Please let me know the number. Regarding "small band" remind me of how many people it took to undertake the 9/11 attacks? How many were involved in the murder of 50 people in London on 7/7? How many more terrorist atacks do there have to be for the threat of radical Islam to be taken seriously?



Possibly, still doesnt explain why Muslims Against Crusades were allowed to spit their sectarian bile. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander, why one hate group should receive special treatment over another is illogical to me.



One of the top organisers in the UAF was recently (as in the last year or two) convicted of assault on a police officer. UAF demonstrators have been arrested on demonstrations for public order offences, violent disorder and the like. Please don't try and equate the UAF to an organisation like the SCLC which pursued equal rights for African Americans in the Jim Crow South through nonviolent means.



Edit -

Good point and you are right on that it was better that they didnt attend.[/QUOTE]

The EDL is riddled with Nazi lovers, one of their own leaders from the Jewish division resigned recently over this very issue.

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/50932/edl-jewish-division-leader-roberta-moore-quits

I don't see what your issue is with flying these flags. Support for the Palestinians against occupation, support for innocent civilians in Pakistan being killed by drone attacks ? What is the relevance of the EDL having a Jewish division and flying the Star of David at protests ?

As for the arrest of Martin Smith, I take it this is who you are referring to, this was a charge he strenuously denied. He was protesting against Nick Griffin and the BNP outside the BBC.

http://uaf.org.uk/2010/09/martin-smith-verdict-attack-on-right-to-protest-against-fascism/

[CFC]

The EDL is riddled with Nazi lovers, one of their own leaders from the Jewish division resigned recently over this very issue.

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/50932/edl-jewish-division-leader-roberta-moore-quits

I don't see what your issue is with flying these flags. Support for the Palestinians against occupation, support for innocent civilians in Pakistan being killed by drone attacks ? What is the relevance of the EDL having a Jewish division and flying the Star of David at protests ?

As for the arrest of Martin Smith, I take it this is who you are referring to, this was a charge he strenuously denied. He was protesting against Nick Griffin and the BNP outside the BBC.

http://uaf.org.uk/2010/09/martin-smith-verdict-attack-on-right-to-protest-against-fascism/



So the EDL is riddled with Nazi lovers but they also fly the Star of David at protests?
Waving flags at demos does not denote some sort of support or solidarity with the issues that you mention, it is done to be provocative and is entirely counterproductive. Re the flags: Counter demoing an organisation that are protesting what they percieve as the "Islamification of Britain" by waving the flag of an Islamic republic that is a safe haven for terrorists is beyond idiotic.

Martin Smith denied it because he is a liar, as well as a thug. He was convicted by a judge and is therefore a criminal.

So all in all we can see a few things here:
MAC are a hateful sectarian group that the UAF will NEVER condemn let alone protest against.
The UAF bring nothing constuctive to the table. I've read their crappy wee website its just full of pish but NOTHING in the way of solutions, they appear to have no positive agenda, no vision other than recycling tired cliches about "smashing fascists and Nazis" then again they are just an ofshoot of the SWP so quelle surprise.


To summarise: The aforementioned organisations (MAC, EDL and UAF) have no posiitve agendas. They are not seeking to build bridges or create a more harmonious and peaceful society through understanding, compassion and consideration for other citizens. They are all content to slaver ***** at one another, scream, fight with each other, assault police officers, destroy property and cost the taxpayer a fortune in policing costs. But none of them, not one are actually presenting "a way forward" or a solution, a way in which political and religious differences can be set aside for the greater good of living in a functioning, respectful and decent society.

What a total joke.

[magpie1892]

To summarise: The aforementioned organisations (MAC, EDL and UAF) have no posiitve agendas. They are not seeking to build bridges or create a more harmonious and peaceful society through understanding, compassion and consideration for other citizens. They are all content to slaver ***** at one another, scream, fight with each other, assault police officers, destroy property and cost the taxpayer a fortune in policing costs.

:top marksSomeone else who 'gets it'.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Passed off without incident. 250 nazi twats involved.
http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/east-central/269741-far-right-protest-passes-without-incident/

The most pointless and unnecessary cancellation of a Hibs game i can ever remember.

No way there were 250 EDL there. Kept apart as we were, their turnout looked miniscule.


I would tend to agree, were it not for the fact that I've never seen as many police in one place at one time other than in London - and the Met has a fair bit more latency than L&B.

Shocking that either group was allowed to take to the streets. The vast majority of people are just not interested in either the extreme left or right - hence 'extreme'. (Though, at the risk of waking the Kraken, there are several arguments to suggest that BNP/EDL etc are just extreme left with racism).

Beyond dispute, is that both groups are unsavoury.

Hold on, you can't try this nonsense once, get told you're talking bollocks, refuse to argue your position and then just say the same thing in another thread weeks later.


That's true (first sentence, rest is incoherent). Though what 'protesting against fascism' has to do with the woman beaters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcG2C22okE) and cackling thugs of UAF, I know not.

Like I said, both groups make my skin crawl and I'm missing the part where I said they were two sides of the same coin..?

The 'cackling thugs' (a couple of absolute dicks by all accounts) who have nothing to do with UAF and were not even on the counter demo?


The other side could also be fascists by another name. WWII in eastern Europe was an example of fascism vs fascism. The BNP/EDL/SDL are certainly unsavoury but are they actually fascists? Do they seek a totalitarian single-party state or a single ruling ideology? Maybe they do in the form of nostalgia. On the other side you have marxism and political islam, both of which meet this definition of fascism, i.e., anti-liberalism or "we know what's good for you, do what we say".

Oh, for the love of God Fergus, you just get more peculiar. Despite what you may have read in your fundamentally innacurate dictionary, the definition of fascism is not anti-liberalism - you are talking rubbish again. Neither Marxism nor political Islam are fascist ideologies and 'WWII in Eastern Europe' was not an example of fascism vs. fascism. Throw your dictionary in the bin.

[(((Fergus)))]

Oh, for the love of God Fergus, you just get more peculiar. Despite what you may have read in your fundamentally innacurate dictionary, the definition of fascism is not anti-liberalism - you are talking rubbish again. Neither Marxism nor political Islam are fascist ideologies and 'WWII in Eastern Europe' was not an example of fascism vs. fascism. Throw your dictionary in the bin.

And you are just as rude, supercilious yet unhelpful as ever. My (admittedly self-educated) impression of fascism is that it was a totalitarian system that used ridicule, intimidation and ultimately violence to stifle dissent and alternative ways of life within its sphere of dominance. In this respect it was - to a layman such as myself at least - identical to marxist and islamist totalitarianism. The people of eastern Europe were not liberated by the Red Army, unfortunately, they became slaves to another "we know best" ideology. Maybe you could give us the benefit of your education and explain what I have not understood?

[LiverpoolHibs]

And you are just as rude, supercilious yet unhelpful as ever. My (admittedly self-educated) impression of fascism is that it was a totalitarian system that used ridicule, intimidation and ultimately violence to stifle dissent and alternative ways of life within its sphere of dominance. In this respect it was - to a layman such as myself at least - identical to marxist and islamist totalitarianism. The people of eastern Europe were not liberated by the Red Army, unfortunately, they became slaves to another "we know best" ideology. Maybe you could give us the benefit of your education and explain what I have not understood?

Given your posting history it's hard not to be rude and supercillious.

Fascism was - and is - a totalitarian ideology that used ridicule, intimidation and violence to stifle dissent and alternative ways of thinking. So have regimes that purport to be Marxist and Islamist regimes, but so have governments that trace their motivation to Enlightenment liberalism. So, so what? You seem to think that totalitarianism and fascism are synonomous and that the label 'fascism' can be stuck on any political movement that you don't like. Use the term properly or don't use it at all. (And there is an interesting debate to be had about whether the EDL and it's sister movements, what might be termed 'Breivikist', can be properly termed 'fascist' - in my opinion they certainly fullfil a number of the criteria).

Eastern Europe was liberated by the Red Army, as appalling as life under the Stalinist Soviet Union it cannot be said to be the equal of whatever state may have existed under fascism. That is incontrovertible.

It's also odd to hear you getting all hot under the collar about stuff like this given some of your opinions about Palestinians and Arabs more generally - including saying that you had no idea why Israel provided food and water to the beseiged inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.

I have no idea why you think I've been the benefit of some special education unavailable to you on the definition of fascism. I've just read stuff that's just as available to you as to me. Try Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism.

[magpie1892]

Hold on, you can't try this nonsense once, get told you're talking bollocks, refuse to argue your position and then just say the same thing in another thread weeks later.

To get told by you I'm talking bollocks doesn't make my position nonsense, I'm afraid. IIRC, your counter to the widely-held assertion that EDL is far left with racism was "people might say that, but they would be wrong"; this does not a persuasive or thorough argument make. Not really credible to accuse me of not arguing my position, is it, when you have failed to do so yourself, most abjectly at that. Typical of the hypocrisy of the far left though, so no surprises.

[magpie1892]

No way there were 250 EDL there. Kept apart as we were, their turnout looked miniscule.

HB got mixed up (I think) in describing UAF as 'Nazi twats' - I think he meant there were 250 of your brand of nobs, and 150 of the other brand of nobs, and mixed up the numbers.

What a shock to find you were in one of the pens! Best place for these twin sets of human detritus, lessens the risk of contagion.

[LiverpoolHibs]

To get told by you I'm talking bollocks doesn't make my position nonsense, I'm afraid. IIRC, your counter to the widely-held assertion that EDL is far left with racism was "people might say that, but they would be wrong"; this does not a persuasive or thorough argument make. Not really credible to accuse me of not arguing my position, is it, when you have failed to do so yourself, most abjectly at that. Typical of the hypocrisy of the far left though, so no surprises.

Typically dishonest and a repeat of what you tried on the other thread. Here's a link to the post in question:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?214154-Do-ultra-left-wing-fanatics-commit-attrocities-too&p=2867660&viewfull=1#post2867660

Which starts with that statement and is followed by explication. You then bailed from the thread. Probably sensibly.


HB got mixed up (I think) in describing UAF as 'Nazi twats' - I think he meant there were 250 of your brand of nobs, and 150 of the other brand of nobs, and mixed up the numbers.

What a shock to find you were in one of the pens! Best place for these twin sets of human detritus, lessens the risk of contagion.

That's weird. I wonder if you'd tell the assorted pensioners, trade unionists, representatives from churches, mosques, temples and synagogues and others that made up the counter demo (as you say, I was on it so was able to see the sort of people around me) that they were 'human detritus' to their face.

[magpie1892]

Typically dishonest and a repeat of what you tried on the other thread. Here's a link to the post in question:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?214154-Do-ultra-left-wing-fanatics-commit-attrocities-too&p=2867660&viewfull=1#post2867660

Which starts with that statement and is followed by explication. You then bailed from the thread. Probably sensibly.

Bailed on the thread? One post before your own last on it, which was a facile response to my answer to your childish question 'are you alright?'. Needed no riposte that I could see. You then bailed on the thread, by your own argument...

Again, staggering hypocrisy to describe my post as 'typically dishonest' - you're just making it up as you go along (typical of far-left detritus, as previously positioned). It's really rather sad.




That's weird. I wonder if you'd tell the assorted pensioners, trade unionists, representatives from churches, mosques, temples and synagogues and others that made up the counter demo (as you say, I was on it so was able to see the sort of people around me) that they were 'human detritus' to their face.

Most probably, yes. Not sure what's 'weird' about this. I'd probably encounter violence if I said it to UAF **** and EDL ****, which is why both these sets of losers need to be penned in. It's quite straightforward.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Bailed on the thread? One post before your own last, which was a facile response to my answer to your childish question 'are you alright?'. Again, staggering hypocrisy to describe my post as 'typically dishonest' - you're just making it up as you go along (typically).

Good God, you bailed on the thread because you failed to answer any of the points made in my reply to you and because you either couldn't see that the assertion was followed by an explication or you dishonestly tried to claim that my post was just an assertion. Twice.


Most probably, yes. Not sure what's 'weird' about this. I'd probably encounter violence if I said it to UAF **** and EDL ****, which is why these losers need to be penned in. It's quite straightforward.

Then I think they (and anyone else) would be entitled to think that you are a very strange individual.

Out of interest, were the counter protestors at Cable Street 'human detritus'?

[magpie1892]

Good God, you bailed on the thread because you failed to answer any of the points made in my reply to you and because you either couldn't see that the assertion was followed by an explication or you dishonestly tried to claim that my post was just an assertion. Twice.



Aye, whatever you say.




Then I think they (and anyone else) would be entitled to think that you are a very strange individual.



By all means. I couldn't give a **** what either UAF or EDL **** think of me. Indeed, if it's in any way negative, that could be construed as a positive.




Out of interest, were the counter protestors at Cable Street 'human detritus'?

Why you asking me? Was that the UAF? Why would you be interested in the opinion of a very strange individual?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Aye, whatever you say.

Is that a retraction and admission of dishonesty?


By all means. I couldn't give a **** what either UAF or EDL **** think of me. Indeed, if it's in any way negative, that could be construed as a positive.

Why you asking me? Was that the UAF? Why would you be interested in the opinion of a very strange individual? How annoying is it to have a question answered with four others? :wink:

Are you labouring under the misapprehension that everyone on the counter demo was a fully paid up member of UAF (I'm not)? Is that the problem?

Your problems with UAF are incoherent and nonsensical but you're entitled to them. You're not entitled, however, to calling everyone on the counter demonstration regardless of affiliation and political stripe 'human detritus'. A particularly telling piece of dehumanisation, incidentally.

[magpie1892]

Is that a retraction and admission of dishonesty?

What do you think?




Are you labouring under the misapprehension that everyone on the counter demo was a fully paid up member of UAF (I'm not)? Is that the problem?

Your problems with UAF are incoherent and nonsensical but you're entitled to them. You're not entitled, however, to calling everyone on the counter demonstration regardless of affiliation and political stripe 'human detritus'. A particularly telling piece of dehumanisation, incidentally.

No.
No.
If you say so/yes I am.
Yes I am - if it walks like a duck, etc.
You could say that, "but you'd be wrong".

[LiverpoolHibs]

What do you think?

I don't know. It should be and it did seem like a begrudging one.


No.
No.
If you say so/yes I am.
Yes I am - if it walks like a duck, etc.
You could say that, "but you'd be wrong".

So if your (incoherent and nonsensical) opposition is to UAF why are you insistent on calling everyone on the counter demo 'human detritus'? This is just really, really odd.

I simply do not believe that you would be willing to tell the vast majority of people on the anti-fascist side that they were 'human detritus' to their face.

[magpie1892]

I don't know. It should be and it did seem like a begrudging one.

You might think it should be, naturally, but you'd be wrong.




So if your (incoherent and nonsensical) opposition is to UAF why are you insistent on calling everyone on the counter demo 'human detritus'? This is just really, really odd.

I simply do not believe that you would be willing to tell the vast majority of people on the anti-fascist side that they were 'human detritus' to their face.

I would, hence why I said it earlier. You may choose to disbelieve me, of course, but you'd be wrong.

[LiverpoolHibs]

You might think it should be, naturally, but you'd be wrong.

No I wouldn't, it's just weird that you're continuing to argue something that is demonstrably rubbish as the link I provided shows.


I would, hence why I said it earlier. You may choose to disbelieve me, of course, but you'd be wrong.

Well then, that just shows that your unpleasantness (as khibs has mentioned) isn't limited to this forum given that you insist that you would tell an elderly Church of Scotland minister or a priest from a Sikh temple, both out to peacefully show solidarity with a specifically targetted section of the local population, that they are 'human detritus'.

[magpie1892]

No I wouldn't, it's just weird that you're continuing to argue something that is demonstrably rubbish as the link I provided shows.

Your link is more credible than my link? You could think so, but you would be wrong.


Well then, that just shows that your unpleasantness (as khibs has mentioned) isn't limited to this forum given that you insist that you would tell an elderly Church of Scotland minister or a priest from a Sikh temple, both out to peacefully show solidarity with a specifically targetted section of the local population, that they are 'human detritus'.

Ooh! khibs thinks I'm unpleasant. Well that settles it then, as I am of course the only person on here who thinks you're an utter flange. How khibs' thinking I am unpleasant is in any way relevant to your pant-wetting far-left half-truths and fantasies, I know not.

Your specious argument ('priest from a Sikh temple' - groan) only works if you concede that every single person in the EDL contingent has to have been a paid up member of that organisation. Judge a man by the company he keeps, and if you choose criminal, violent, time- and taxpayer-money wasting twats like UAF and EDL as your fellow travellers, then you can expect to be called on it.

p.s. 'peacefully show solidarity' - good one. UAF riddled with convicted criminals and a history of violent disorder - even more than the other fascists, no?

[magpie1892]

10,000 people wanted to go to the football on the day in the question. 400 rimjobs prevented that.

How very thoughtful.

[ballengeich]

Eastern Europe was liberated by the Red Army, as appalling as life under the Stalinist Soviet Union it cannot be said to be the equal of whatever state may have existed under fascism. That is incontrovertible.


Nonsense. Liberation requires a lot more than the imposition of a dictatorship which is preferable to the Nazis.

[Twa Cairpets]

Nonsense. Liberation requires a lot more than the imposition of a dictatorship which is preferable to the Nazis.

They were liberated from German/Nazi occuaption by the Soviet Union. The nature of that liberation is a different argument.


Ooh! khibs thinks I'm unpleasant. Well that settles it then, as I am of course the only person on here who thinks you're an utter flange. How khibs' thinking I am unpleasant is in any way relevant to your pant-wetting far-left half-truths and fantasies, I know not.

Your specious argument ('priest from a Sikh temple' - groan) only works if you concede that every single person in the EDL contingent has to have been a paid up member of that organisation. Judge a man by the company he keeps, and if you choose criminal, violent, time- and taxpayer-money wasting twats like UAF and EDL as your fellow travellers, then you can expect to be called on it.

p.s. 'peacefully show solidarity' - good one. UAF riddled with convicted criminals and a history of violent disorder - even more than the other fascists, no?

So, if someone joins a protest that has unpleasant people in it (on one or both sides) they are human detritus because of your association clause? I'm firmly with LH here in the "well, thats a bit odd" camp.

I'm the last to afford any special privilege to representatives of a religion, but I think calling them that on the basis of their opposition to the SDL/EDL is bizarre and almost certainly unjustified. As for "saying it to their face", never mind it reaking of internet machismo, wouldn't it really just be rather, well, classless if you did do that?

[magpie1892]

So, if someone joins a protest that has unpleasant people in it (on one or both sides) they are human detritus because of your association clause? I'm firmly with LH here in the "well, thats a bit odd" camp.

I'm the last to afford any special privilege to representatives of a religion, but I think calling them that on the basis of their opposition to the SDL/EDL is bizarre and almost certainly unjustified. As for "saying it to their face", never mind it reaking of internet machismo, wouldn't it really just be rather, well, classless if you did do that?

LH wants to have his cake and eat it though; the EDL are **** but he/she/it won't have a word said about the UAF, who are 'protecting a minority' apparently, with 'Sikhs from the temple', no less. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that both groups are best given a wide berth though I broadly agree with your sentiment that I'm generalising. Would it also be a generalisation to suggest that Muslims are quite capable of protecting their own interests, financially, physically, socially, religiously?

Classless? Maybe, though I don't see what's classy about 400 idiots ****ing up the weekend for everyone else. 400 people and how many police to keep the sheep in their pens? The overwhelming majority of people, especially in Scotland, care not one jot for either group. I saw a lot of people shaking their heads and laughing at the time. It irks me that the vast majority are being inconvenienced by - and paying for - just a few hundred inadequates to shout at each other in the middle of Princes Street/Waterloo Place for a couple of hours. Can they not do it in a field near Haddington or something?

[magpie1892]

Nonsense. Liberation requires a lot more than the imposition of a dictatorship which is preferable to the Nazis.

Stalin killed a lot more Russians than Hitler. If that's liberation, you can keep it.

[Twa Cairpets]

LH wants to have his cake and eat it though; the EDL are **** but he/she/it won't have a word said about the UAF, who are 'protecting a minority' apparently, with 'Sikhs from the temple', no less. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that both groups are best given a wide berth though I broadly agree with your sentiment that I'm generalising. Would it also be a generalisation to suggest that Muslims are quite capable of protecting their own interests, financially, physically, socially, religiously?

Maybe, but then doubtless they would be described as being radicals or extremists (which of course they may be). I dont view it as odd that people wish to show a bit of solidarity against a pretty repugnant group of bams.


Classless? Maybe, though I don't see what's classy about 400 idiots ****ing up the weekend for everyone else. 400 people and how many police to keep the sheep in their pens? The overwhelming majority of people, especially in Scotland, care not one jot for either group. I saw a lot of people shaking their heads and laughing at the time. It irks me that the vast majority are being inconvenienced by - and paying for - just a few hundred inadequates to shout at each other in the middle of Princes Street/Waterloo Place for a couple of hours. Can they not do it in a field near Haddington or something?

Yes, I agree that it is an irritant, and that in the case of the football it was a pain in the backside. But the two sides are not equally to blame for this - it was the SDL who organised it in the first place - it wasnt as if UAF had a standing order in for a protest just in case some plums with skinheads decided to have a day out. And youre right, most people dont care, but that doesnt mean that these clowns shouldnt have the right to hold their ralles, pathetic wee affiars that they are.

Finally, why define yourself by comparison to these guys - opportunity to take a genuine bit of moral high ground maybe? A haughty sneer and pointing and laughing at the silly people is better than abuse. Its certainly the stance I adopt if the Orange Lodge happen to be passing anywhere where I am.



Stalin killed a lot more Russians than Hitler. If that's liberation, you can keep it.

Again, not the point. Fact is that they were liberated insofar as that the invading Germans were turfed out by the Soviets. Dont confuse liberation with freedom or liberty.

[BroxburnHibee]

Any chance you could all discuss the point without the personal stuff?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Your link is more credible than my link? You could think so, but you would be wrong.

I think you're getting confused, where have you provided a link?


Ooh! khibs thinks I'm unpleasant. Well that settles it then, as I am of course the only person on here who thinks you're an utter flange. How khibs' thinking I am unpleasant is in any way relevant to your pant-wetting far-left half-truths and fantasies, I know not.

This is getting really bizarre, I'm not really sure what you're blathering about. If you read the post it's all pretty clear - I was merely pointing out that your insistence that you would call, for example, an elderly CoS minister 'human detritus' to his face for having the gall to oppose the EDL goes to show that your intrinsic 'unpleasantness' is not confined to what you write on this forum.

Feel free to point out any 'pant-wetting far-left half-truths and fantasies' and feel free to continue to regard me as an 'utter flange'; that's a marvellous character reference as far as I'm concerned.


Your specious argument ('priest from a Sikh temple' - groan) only works if you concede that every single person in the EDL contingent has to have been a paid up member of that organisation. Judge a man by the company he keeps, and if you choose criminal, violent, time- and taxpayer-money wasting twats like UAF and EDL as your fellow travellers, then you can expect to be called on it.

This is incredible.

Even accepting this weird stuff about UAF evil-nature, to be on the EDL/SDL demonstration it would be necessary to be supportive of the basic tenets of the EDL/SDL especially as the majority of their participants were from organised groups bussed in from the north of England. To be on the counter protest you would not even have to be aware of the existence of UAF just aware of the nature of the EDL/SDL.

Aren't you a Tory? Is David Cameron 'human detritus' for being a paid up member of UAF?


p.s. 'peacefully show solidarity' - good one. UAF riddled with convicted criminals and a history of violent disorder - even more than the other fascists, no?

Well no. Not unless you have any proof of that.


10,000 people wanted to go to the football on the day in the question. 400 rimjobs prevented that.

How very thoughtful.

'Flange', 'rimjobs', 'human detritus'. The English language is an absolute delight in your hands...


LH wants to have his cake and eat it though; the EDL are **** but he/she/it won't have a word said about the UAF, who are 'protecting a minority' apparently, with 'Sikhs from the temple', no less. There is sufficient evidence to suggest that both groups are best given a wide berth though I broadly agree with your sentiment that I'm generalising. Would it also be a generalisation to suggest that Muslims are quite capable of protecting their own interests, financially, physically, socially, religiously?

And why should it be left to them? I mean, you can be honest and express your real reasons (which have been evidenced on this forum a few times) for getting so het-up about people wanting to express solidarity with a section of the population coming under sustained attack from various groups assorted around the EDL - or you can continue with these bizarre arguments.


Classless? Maybe, though I don't see what's classy about 400 idiots ****ing up the weekend for everyone else. 400 people and how many police to keep the sheep in their pens? The overwhelming majority of people, especially in Scotland, care not one jot for either group. I saw a lot of people shaking their heads and laughing at the time. It irks me that the vast majority are being inconvenienced by - and paying for - just a few hundred inadequates to shout at each other in the middle of Princes Street/Waterloo Place for a couple of hours. Can they not do it in a field near Haddington or something?

And having been on the demo I saw a great deal of support from passers-by and from passing traffic, I was quite surprised by it actually. Observer bias granted in both cases, I guess.

[magpie1892]

I think you're getting confused, where have you provided a link?



This is getting really bizarre, I'm not really sure what you're blathering about. If you read the post it's all pretty clear - I was merely pointing out that your insistence that you would call, for example, an elderly CoS minister 'human detritus' to his face for having the gall to oppose the EDL goes to show that your intrinsic 'unpleasantness' is not confined to what you write on this forum.

Feel free to point out any 'pant-wetting far-left half-truths and fantasies' and feel free to continue to regard me as an 'utter flange'; that's a marvellous character reference as far as I'm concerned.



This is incredible.

Even accepting this weird stuff about UAF evil-nature, to be on the EDL/SDL demonstration it would be necessary to be supportive of the basic tenets of the EDL/SDL especially as the majority of their participants were from organised groups bussed in from the north of England. To be on the counter protest you would not even have to be aware of the existence of UAF just aware of the nature of the EDL/SDL.

Aren't you a Tory? Is David Cameron 'human detritus' for being a paid up member of UAF?



Well no. Not unless you have any proof of that.



'Flange', 'rimjobs', 'human detritus'. The English language is an absolute delight in your hands...



And why should it be left to them? I mean, you can be honest and express your real reasons (which have been evidenced on this forum a few times) for getting so het-up about people wanting to express solidarity with a section of the population coming under sustained attack from various groups assorted around the EDL - or you can continue with these bizarre arguments.



And having been on the demo I saw a great deal of support from passers-by and from passing traffic, I was quite surprised by it actually. Observer bias granted in both cases, I guess.

You don't have any substantive points to address* and we're never likely to agree, are we?!

*I am most certainly not a Tory, though, so the answer to this one is: yes, he is.

[magpie1892]

Maybe, but then doubtless they would be described as being radicals or extremists (which of course they may be). I dont view it as odd that people wish to show a bit of solidarity against a pretty repugnant group of bams. - me either, I just object to the arrogance of UAF in thinking that they should be the chosen ones, especially when one considers their inherent criminality and propensity for violence. Then there was me thinking that racially/religiously motivated discrimination and/or violence in the same name has been legislated against for, in some cases, decades...




Yes, I agree that it is an irritant, and that in the case of the football it was a pain in the backside. But the two sides are not equally to blame for this - it was the SDL who organised it in the first place - it wasnt as if UAF had a standing order in for a protest just in case some plums with skinheads decided to have a day out. And youre right, most people dont care, but that doesnt mean that these clowns shouldnt have the right to hold their ralles, pathetic wee affiars that they are.

Finally, why define yourself by comparison to these guys - opportunity to take a genuine bit of moral high ground maybe? A haughty sneer and pointing and laughing at the silly people is better than abuse. Its certainly the stance I adopt if the Orange Lodge happen to be passing anywhere where I am.


Like I say, a field in East Lothian would have been the perfect spot. That's would have been the appropriate level of exposure for the parties concerned. Cheaper, less hassle for everyone else. More... democratic?

[RyeSloan]

Again, not the point. Fact is that they were liberated insofar as that the invading Germans were turfed out by the Soviets. Dont confuse liberation with freedom or liberty.

Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying Magpie and LH getting down and dirty I'm not getting this point...

"Don't confuse Liberation with freedom or liberty"...not sure but I would have thought the word liberation has the same roots as the word liberty.


A quick look at the dictionary gives a simple definition of liberation as the following:

"The act or process of trying to achieve equal rights and status"

Are you really trying to say Stalin's Russia gave this to the people it 'liberated' from the Nazi's?

To me it's quite clear that one repressive regime was replaced with another and little or no liberation of the people was involved at all.

[Twa Cairpets]

Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying Magpie and LH getting down and dirty I'm not getting this point...

"Don't confuse Liberation with freedom or liberty"...not sure but I would have thought the word liberation has the same roots as the word liberty.


A quick look at the dictionary gives a simple definition of liberation as the following:

"The act or process of trying to achieve equal rights and status"

Are you really trying to say Stalin's Russia gave this to the people it 'liberated' from the Nazi's?

To me it's quite clear that one repressive regime was replaced with another and little or no liberation of the people was involved at all.

It was only a wee point, and in the grand scheme fairly minor. In a military sense the Soviets liberated the Eastern block countries from the Germans/Nazis. They didnt give it back to the people, so it wasnt freedom for sure, and didnt result in much by way of liberty, but they did liberate it from the Germans.

[RyeSloan]

It was only a wee point, and in the grand scheme fairly minor. In a military sense the Soviets liberated the Eastern block countries from the Germans/Nazis. They didnt give it back to the people, so it wasnt freedom for sure, and didnt result in much by way of liberty, but they did liberate it from the Germans.

Och I like the wee points, appeals to my sense of pedantry. :greengrin

[magpie1892]

Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying Magpie and LH getting down and dirty I'm not getting this point...

"Don't confuse Liberation with freedom or liberty"...not sure but I would have thought the word liberation has the same roots as the word liberty.


A quick look at the dictionary gives a simple definition of liberation as the following:

"The act or process of trying to achieve equal rights and status"

Are you really trying to say Stalin's Russia gave this to the people it 'liberated' from the Nazi's?

To me it's quite clear that one repressive regime was replaced with another and little or no liberation of the people was involved at all.

I can see both sides on this one. While I did opine that if replacing Hitler with Stalin was liberation then you could 'keep it', technically that usage would be correct.

LH has 'baled out' it seems. Must be away knitting left-wing houmous at Dale Farm or somesuch.

[RyeSloan]

I can see both sides on this one. While I did opine that if replacing Hitler with Stalin was liberation then you could 'keep it', technically that usage would be correct.LH has 'baled out' it seems. Must be away knitting left-wing houmous at Dale Farm or somesuch.

Technically I still think that to libertate you must provide some liberation. Russia simply occupied...the fact they displaced the Germans is neither here nor there, it was an occupation not a liberation.

But anyway I dinnae want TC to come back and hunt me down on this so I'll happily concede the point (aye right! :wink:)

[Twa Cairpets]

Technically I still think that to libertate you must provide some liberation. Russia simply occupied...the fact they displaced the Germans is neither here nor there, it was an occupation not a liberation.

But anyway I dinnae want TC to come back and hunt me down on this so I'll happily concede the point (aye right! :wink:)

Fear the pedantic wrath of the Carpeted one...:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Fear the pedantic wrath of the Carpeted one...:greengrin

Very Old Testament....

[khib70]

I can see both sides on this one. While I did opine that if replacing Hitler with Stalin was liberation then you could 'keep it', technically that usage would be correct.

LH has 'baled out' it seems. Must be away knitting left-wing houmous at Dale Farm or somesuch.
So you can have a wee dig at him via a cliched Daily Mail stereotype when you know he's not around to reply. That's about your level.

Anyway, I suspect he'll be back. He may be considerably more left wing than me (which isn't hard), but he's a lot funnier than you, and he's got your number on this issue.

To get back on topic, most people in the UAF are people I would disagree strongly with about pretty much everything else, but I'd have no hesitation at all in standing beside them on this issue.

And you've yet to produce a shred of evidence that any substantial number of UAF members are criminals, or Islamists, or supporters of terrorism, despite being challenged on several occasions to do so. The kind of lazy, "they're just as bad as each other" tabloid populism in which you indulge yourself is just letting pondlife like the EDL/SDL off the hook. And the scary thing is that you know that perfectly well.

[magpie1892]

So you can have a wee dig at him via a cliched Daily Mail stereotype when you know he's not around to reply.

I know he's not around to reply? I do? Wait, he's not actually at Dale Farm is he? Too funny if I guessed right; if not, I have no idea of his movements. Not sure why you would think I do.



Anyway, I suspect he'll be back. He may be considerably more left wing than me (which isn't hard), but he's a lot funnier than you, and he's got your number on this issue. I'm not playing for laughs but, yes, he's unintentionally hilarious, I'll give you that. Got my number? Not on this issue, or any other in which I would engage him (I stay away from the Israel stuff as I don't know enough about it); reason being, he's got an inbuilt disadvantage.


To get back on topic, most people in the UAF are people I would disagree strongly with about pretty much everything else, but I'd have no hesitation at all in standing beside them on this issue.

And you've yet to produce a shred of evidence that any substantial number of UAF members are criminals, or Islamists, or supporters of terrorism, despite being challenged on several occasions to do so. The kind of lazy, "they're just as bad as each other" tabloid populism in which you indulge yourself is just letting pondlife like the EDL/SDL off the hook. And the scary thing is that you know that perfectly well.

Provided a link early on and there's loads of stuff on the web about UAF and criminality. I'm not the Oracle...

Again, when you say 'you know that perfectly well' you are telling me what I think, or what you think I think. This is a mistake. It's not your place to decide what I think, is it, especially when you're so far off base.

[hibsbollah]

The Battle of Cable Street. (great footage)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozndljflUgU Some analysis and interviews here.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15171772

[LiverpoolHibs]

You don't have any substantive points to address* and we're never likely to agree, are we?!

*I am most certainly not a Tory, though, so the answer to this one is: yes, he is.

That's good isn't it. Just refuse to respond and phrase it in such a way that it makes it look as if there's nothing for you to respond to. Laughable.


I can see both sides on this one. While I did opine that if replacing Hitler with Stalin was liberation then you could 'keep it', technically that usage would be correct.

LH has 'baled out' it seems. Must be away knitting left-wing houmous at Dale Farm or somesuch.

You 'bailed out' on the previous thread because you completely failed to answer the explanation as to why your suggestion that the 'far-right was just the far left with added racism' was such unalloyed nonsense.

I have not 'baled out', I just haven't been able to respond for a couple of days.

And houmous? Aren't lentils the unfunny red-baiter's legume of choice?


I know he's not around to reply? I do? Wait, he's not actually at Dale Farm is he? Too funny if I guessed right; if not, I have no idea of his movements. Not sure why you would think I do.

I'm not playing for laughs but, yes, he's unintentionally hilarious, I'll give you that. Got my number? Not on this issue, or any other in which I would engage him (I stay away from the Israel stuff as I don't know enough about it); reason being, he's got an inbuilt disadvantage.

I find that my functional innumeracy doesn't really hold me back in internet arguments with genuinely strange figures.

[magpie1892]

That's good isn't it. Just refuse to respond and phrase it in such a way that it makes it look as if there's nothing for you to respond to. Laughable.



There is nothing for me to respond to. Nothing new, nothing substantive. And, as I mentioned, nothing that's likely to bring us any closer together in discussion...

[One Day Soon]

That's good isn't it. Just refuse to respond and phrase it in such a way that it makes it look as if there's nothing for you to respond to. Laughable.



You 'bailed out' on the previous thread because you completely failed to answer the explanation as to why your suggestion that the 'far-right was just the far left with added racism' was such unalloyed nonsense.

I have not 'baled out', I just haven't been able to respond for a couple of days.

And houmous? Aren't lentils the unfunny red-baiter's legume of choice?



I find that my functional innumeracy doesn't really hold me back in internet arguments with genuinely strange figures.


Do they mean me (as Derek Jamieson used to say)? Anyway your memory is not letting you down - it's lentils and paradigms.

[LiverpoolHibs]

There is nothing for me to respond to. Nothing new, nothing substantive. And, as I mentioned, nothing that's likely to bring us any closer together in discussion...

The thing that's preventing us being brought closer together is you being weird, incoherent and nonsensical. As soon as you stop that we can exist in perfect harmony...


Do they mean me (as Derek Jamieson used to say)? Anyway your memory is not letting you down - it's lentils and paradigms.

No, you don't have a monopoly on being an unfunny red-baiter. As magpie will attest.

[One Day Soon]

The thing that's preventing us being brought closer together is you being weird, incoherent and nonsensical. As soon as you stop that we can exist in perfect harmony...



No, you don't have a monopoly on being an unfunny red-baiter. As magpie will attest.

Aye, you ARE sense of humour boy after all.

'Red-baiter'. That makes a lot of assumptions both about your politics and about the discourse.

[magpie1892]

The thing that's preventing us being brought closer together is you being weird, incoherent and nonsensical. As soon as you stop that we can exist in perfect harmony...

This is not a unilateral issue. You're kidding on if you think it is.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Aye, you ARE sense of humour boy after all.

'Red-baiter'. That makes a lot of assumptions both about your politics and about the discourse.

Why would I make assumptions about my own politics?


This is not a unilateral issue. You're kidding on if you think it is.

I have no idea what 'this is not a unilateral issue means'.

[LiverpoolHibs]

And, on the other point, perhaps we should ask the inmates of Auschwitz if they think 'liberation' is an accurate term...

[Killiehibbie]

And, on the other point, perhaps we should ask the inmates of Auschwitz if they think 'liberation' is an accurate term...Killed in a nazi camp or a soviet one either they ended up dead. Stalin was certainly responsible for a few more deaths than Hitler.