11% of Scots think sectarianism is not offensive and is OK at football!

[Jack]

That’s 572,000 bigots in Scotland – or just about the population of the whole of Glasgow.

15% don’t think it should be a criminal offence!! That’s 780,000 bigot sympathisers.

9% don’t think any stronger action should be taken to tackle sectarianism!!! That’s 468,000 ignorant bigots.

Taken from a Scottish Government media release today ...


An overwhelming majority of Scots support stronger action being taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football according to a new poll published today.

The survey, carried out by TNS-BMRB, reveals that 91 per cent of Scots back stronger action, with 89 per cent agreeing that sectarianism is offensive and unacceptable in Scottish football.

The results come as the Scottish Parliament begins its consideration of proposals by Ministers to strengthen existing laws through tough new legislation to crack down on offensive and threatening behaviour in Scottish football.

The full results show:
• 89 per cent of Scots agree that sectarianism is offensive
• 89 per cent of Scots agree that sectarianism is unacceptable in Scottish football
• 85 per cent of Scots agree that sectarianism should be a criminal offence
• 91 per cent agree that stronger action needs to be taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football in Scotland

http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/1A085E9F0ABE3FEC80257902004D0EDD?OpenDocument

While the Scottish Government have obviously gone for the big numbers, the small figures, covering the small minded, are not small enough not to be an utter and complete embarrassment to the Scottish Nation.

[southern hibby]

Then I would argue that 11% of Scots are neanderthals with draconian attitudes. GGTTH.

[El Gubbz]

That’s 572,000 bigots in Scotland – or just about the population of the whole of Glasgow.

15% don’t think it should be a criminal offence!! That’s 780,000 bigot sympathisers.

9% don’t think any stronger action should be taken to tackle sectarianism!!! That’s 468,000 ignorant bigots.

Taken from a Scottish Government media release today ...



http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/1A085E9F0ABE3FEC80257902004D0EDD?OpenDocument

While the Scottish Government have obviously gone for the big numbers, the small figures, covering the small minded, are not small enough not to be an utter and complete embarrassment to the Scottish Nation.

Think you got your answer

[greenginger]

I'm not offended by sectarianism at football matches. I grew immune to it during my seasons on the terracings home and away in the 60's and 70's and still laugh when I here the grunts perform their pathetic ditties.

But is it O K. No its time for all sides to cut it out and crank out football chants and they can be as un-P.C. as they like with an exception of outright racist chants.

[Sylar]

It's a sub-sample of the Scottish population, so let's try and avoid sweeping generalisations by trying to put it into numbers.

[Sir David Gray]

I've got mixed feelings about this to be honest.

I think that this has been blown up, big time, because of the Lennon v McCoist handbags last season and all of the nonsense involving Neil Lennon. What he had to put up with last season was disgraceful and out of order and the attack on him was shocking.

However, I can't help but think that this legislation is going too far in trying to tackle this problem and won't actually get to the bottom of the real issues.

Five years in prison for shouting an offensive word at a football game! Are you kidding me?

That's more than 60% of the time that Abdelbaset al-Megrahi spent in prison for murdering 270 people!

And then, a couple of months ago, we had a member of the executive saying that she couldn't rule out football fans being prosecuted for singing the national anthem as a result of this new legislation! I've never heard anything so absurd in my life.

Last week at Tynecastle, I could barely see a lot of the game in the first half because of all the extra police officers that were going about in the Hibs end. I thought at first that they must have had intelligence about a possible threat to the game. However, I soon realised that these extra officers were part of the "anti-sectarian initiative". :rolleyes:

For a start, this has not been an issue within our support for many years and also if there had been the odd person who had said something out of order, I'm sure that the previous number of police officers who were on duty at Edinburgh derbies would have been more than capable of dealing with the incident.

When all is said and done, I am willing to bet that the Celtic fans are still singing songs in support of the IRA, and being allowed to do so, and Rangers fans are still singing their Loyalist songs as well, and being allowed to do so.

As far as I'm concerned, the physical assaults, violence and the death threats are the main issues at hand here and that is what the police and the authorities should be treating as the main priority. Once that is done, they can then move on to sorting out the songs and the chants.

[sven nil]

What i cant understand is people who take any notice of a goverment poll! whats worse is when you get one who spins it to 570,000 of the popultation,they are only words,you know like backboard,gollywog,blackman ice cream ect..Its just another form of control from your squeaky clean govertments past and pressent.

[green&left]

A proper definition of the word 'sectarianism' would probably help. If by 'sectarianism' they mean God Save the Queen and the Soldiers Song, Union flags and Irish tri-colours, Rule Britannia and Boys of the old Brigade then no, there shouldn't be any punishments etc. In my opinion anyone that takes offence at a flag/song is a bigger dafty than those taking part in such 'activities'.

[--------]

That’s 572,000 bigots in Scotland – or just about the population of the whole of Glasgow.

15% don’t think it should be a criminal offence!! That’s 780,000 bigot sympathisers.

9% don’t think any stronger action should be taken to tackle sectarianism!!! That’s 468,000 ignorant bigots.

Taken from a Scottish Government media release today ...

http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/1A085E9F0ABE3FEC80257902004D0EDD?OpenDocument

While the Scottish Government have obviously gone for the big numbers, the small figures, covering the small minded, are not small enough not to be an utter and complete embarrassment to the Scottish Nation.


Knickers-in-a-twist time come early this week? :devil:

First of all, just because someone thinks "sectarianism" - however exactly it may be defined in the context of the present argument - shouldn't be a specific criminal offence distinct from other criminal offences doesn't make them "bigot sympathisers".

Nor does being of the opinion that if the police were to actually apply existing laws relating to breach of the peace and threatening behaviour properly we wouldn't need new legislation to deal with the problem make one an "ignorant bigot".

The problem with a term like "sectarianism" is that it can be defined and redefined very easily to suit one's own prejudices. Which makes it a very useful tool for anyone who fancies himself/herself as a potential Thought Polis.

No matter how intolerant my views may be, I probably won't consider anyone who agrees with me to be a "bigot" - simply a decent upstanding right-thinking chap who just happens to hate all the same people as I do.

Of course, I can also take the position that I'm not in ANY way bigoted or prejudiced, which lets me build up a lovely glow of self-satisfaction and self-righteousness - thanking whatever deity I worship (myself, perhaps?) that I'm not as nasty as the bad bigoted Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Airdrie - whatever - supporters.

Generalising like mad about them as I do so, and sounding awfully like a good old-fashioned Pharisee.

So IMHO "sectarianism" shouldn't be the offence as such. Threatening behaviour, breach of the peace, illegal assembly, whatever - there are lots of offences already on the statute book which should enable conscientious police officers to deal with offensive behaviour inside or outside football grounds. We don't need new laws, just the police to enforce existing ones.

And no, this doesn't "utterly and completely embarrass" me in regard to the Scottish nation. True, we do have our share of bampots and hooligans, but Scotland isn't that bad a place to live.

Except when we get the horizontal rain and perishing cold wind like we have today...

[HibbyDave]

No One asked me! I think I must live in a far away land, i only heard on the radio yesterday that fans of hibs/hearts were involved with governmental discussions on this issue.

[RIP]

Apparently the sampling was all done by interviewing 200 people in Dalry Ayrshire.

Of the other questions asked we can now assume that 856,769 people in Scotland have married their cousin, 456,997 have had a child out of wedlock, 632,098 wear a Burberry Cap and 1,065,433 pick their noses whilst watching Gary - Tank Commander

[greenginger]

Defining a Bigot might be helpful too !

My Chambers Dictionary says a Bigot is " somebody who is blindly and obstinately devoted to a particular creed or PARTY"

There must be dozens of Labour Party Bigots and SNP bigots out there .

Get them lifted pronto. :greengrin

[beensaidbefore]

While agreeing with the general theme that 'bigots' have no place in a modern forward thinking society, are the practicalities of enforcing this not quite difficult. Especially if we cant agree what is bigoted chanting/behaviour.

Could this be yet another knee jerk reaction to a moral panic, hoping to mend a broken arm with a sticking plaster.. Most people(apart from the great unwashed i seems) in Scotland know exactly what and where the problems with sectarianism lie. And one of the major factors in preventing a real solution to the problem is that most of the rule makers in scotland are bigoted followers of the old firm.


Interestingly , throughout the debates on the above subject, there seems to have been little or no mention of bigoted behavbiour on other parts of our society. Could attempts at introducing Sharia law ( http://loganswarning.com/2011/07/10/uk-sharia-police-getting-ready-to-enforce-the-law/ ) in some parts of the UK not to be considered equally bigoted due to the lack of respect for the beliefs of others? I have heard very little about this on the news, why has this not been given more publicity? Beacause as i see it, you cannot condemn one type of intolerance while condoning another. would be surprised to see every man and his dog so quick to condemn this behaviour through fear of being branded racist etc.

[heretoday]

What worries me about the prospect of Independence is not the economics or the oil or whatever but that lot in the west.

I reckon they would become far more vocal, form themselves into political parties and probably get elected to Parliament.

I'm voting No.

[smurf]

What worries me about the prospect of Independence is not the economics or the oil or whatever but that lot in the west.

I reckon they would become far more vocal, form themselves into political parties and probably get elected to Parliament.

I'm voting No.

Indeed. I'm surprised its only 11% to be honest..

[matty_f]

Sectarianism isn't a football problem, IMHO - it's a social one. That it manifests itself at some clubs - Hearts, Rangers, and Celtc makes it easy for the Government to link them together. Football isn't bigoted, though some of it's fans are. These fans are also cinema goers, shoppers, workers.

The Government should not be looking to football to cure this ill, it's mis-directed action that will continue to fail to address the deeper issues. They will never succeed in stopping the Hearts, Rangers, and Celtc fans from singing their songs until they sort out the social issues around the bigotry.

[Peevemor]

Indeed. I'm surprised its only 11% to be honest..

Ditto.

[Franck is God]

criminalising an opinion, point of view or belief is dodgy ground as far as I'm concerned as who determines who's beliefs are right or wrong.

We live in a multicultural society and there are always going to be those who are less tolerant of those that they perceive to be different to themsleves.

I agree with another poster that said that when these thoughts turn to violence it becomes a criminal act and those that carry out these criminal acts should quite rightly be punished for it and as severely as the courts will allow, I'm not sure if the motives matter or not.

I don't know if I would want to live in a country where laws determine what I can and cannot say or think.

This is a very heavy topic for a football message board..... the Hearts, don't call the thought police on me.....

[allezsauzee]

I find it offensive that the government is wasting money on such polls

[lobster]

6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy

[hibsbollah]

Id be interested in the findings of a poll that looked at the proportion of respondents that have any understanding of what sectarianism and bigotry actually IS. I bet there would be no commonly agreed definition except it is a 'bad thing'.

[libernian]

wonder what percentage of scottish fans were singing flower of scotland last night? 90%+ probs.

we really are a bigoted country.

p.s. im one of the 11% who dont find it offensive

[ancient hibee]

One of the things that has been forgotten is that this lurched into life on the back of an OF match where in fact all the abusive behaviour took place on the field or between the managements-not the spectators.

[Keith_M]

87% of statistics are just made up.





:wink:

[Keith_M]

wonder what percentage of scottish fans were singing flower of scotland last night? 90%+ probs.

we really are a bigoted country.

p.s. im one of the 11% who dont find it offensive


Deary me, not this again.


Please tell us which part of Flower of Scotland is offensive, why and to whom.


If you actually attempt to answer this, you'll be the first.

[The Baldmans Comb]

wonder what percentage of scottish fans were singing flower of scotland last night? 90%+ probs.

we really are a bigoted country.

p.s. im one of the 11% who dont find it offensive

Dearie me:confused:

[libernian]

Deary me, not this again.


Please tell us which part of Flower of Scotland is offensive, why and to whom.


If you actually attempt to answer this, you'll be the first.

sorry, was trying to be sartcastic when i said "we really are a bigoted country". i dont find flower of scotland offensive at all.

cant really be bothered getting into an discussion about particular words used in a song in any case. but i dont really see the difference between gloating about winning at bannockburn (if thats what flower of sco is about) and orange marches or whatever...

[Hainan Hibs]

What worries me about the prospect of Independence is not the economics or the oil or whatever but that lot in the west.

I reckon they would become far more vocal, form themselves into political parties and probably get elected to Parliament.

I'm voting No.

What's stopping them from doing that now? More sensational ***** from Unionists.

[Keith_M]

sorry, was trying to be sartcastic when i said "we really are a bigoted country". i dont find flower of scotland offensive at all.

cant really be bothered getting into an discussion about particular words used in a song in any case. but i dont really see the difference between gloating about winning at bannockburn (if thats what flower of sco is about) and orange marches or whatever...


Fair enough, you were being sarcastic but there's a lot of people make this claim and no one has ever been able to answer the question I raised.

The first people I heard saying this were OF followers trying to justify their singing of bigoted or terrorist-loving songs. None of them could answer my question either. It doesn't stop this being repeated ad nauseam as if it were an accepted fact FoS is offensive.

[DCI Gene Hunt]

I tend to take any political pish with a very substantial bucketful of salt, and never trust anything along the lines of "78% of twats think pish about a load of bollocks" but there again I feel two ways about this.

Part of me thinks that this is an embarrassing problem that needs to be routed from society good and proper. I cringe hearing it at the 'Tic, Gerz and Fertz games and I cringed when I recently met up with colleagues up in the Orkney Isles of all places who tell stories of nutters coming out with the sort of crap heard at these games, all from a place where all this has NEVER been heard of previously. What brought it in? Twats supporting Ra Gerz and Sellick who having been to the games and being infected with the poison brought it back home with them. Saddening.

There again another part of me also thinks that this is political pish being exaggerated for political reasons. Jailing some inbred doofus for 5 years for singing songs at a football game is bizarre IMO. Jailing folk for going out fighting, encouraging violence etc. for bigoted reasons is definately good, but singing songs? Hmm. One thinks if this really is serious then most of Parkhead and Ibrox and all in the infamous Section N at PBS will need to be arrested at their clubs' respective next home games. Circa 100000 arrests in one weekend hmm? Has this really been thought thru? Gene Genie suspects not.

Of course, you don't have to look far to see the problem, which isn't anything to do with society, or politics, or the economy, or any other political pish musing. The main problem is namely two certain football clubs in Glasgow.

Gene Genie

[The Baldmans Comb]

What worries me about the prospect of Independence is not the economics or the oil or whatever but that lot in the west.

I reckon they would become far more vocal, form themselves into political parties and probably get elected to Parliament.

I'm voting No.

British Unionism really scrapes the barrell with that one as the Scottish bigoted fringe in 300 years of the UK parliament and 14 years of the Scottish parliament haven't managed to make any inroads yet at national level.:confused:

Independance would consist of your normal SNP, Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems members and a few independants all with much the same policies, ideas aspirations and frustrations.

A bit like all the other normal grown up countries.:greengrin

[DCI Gene Hunt]

Yawn. What's independance (or any other politics) got to do with this? Away and bore each other with your pish somewhere else, like on the Scotsman website where likeminded bores perpetually bore each other to insanity arguing the pros and cons of varied pish and making cheap insults and pish banter at each other.

:zzzzz!:

[Phil D. Rolls]

That’s 572,000 bigots in Scotland – or just about the population of the whole of Glasgow.

15% don’t think it should be a criminal offence!! That’s 780,000 bigot sympathisers.

9% don’t think any stronger action should be taken to tackle sectarianism!!! That’s 468,000 ignorant bigots.

Taken from a Scottish Government media release today ...



http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/wg-news-1.nsf/0/1A085E9F0ABE3FEC80257902004D0EDD?OpenDocument

While the Scottish Government have obviously gone for the big numbers, the small figures, covering the small minded, are not small enough not to be an utter and complete embarrassment to the Scottish Nation.

Not reallly that bad really. How do these figures square up with the number of Scots who feel that racism or homophobia is OK? I think it just illustrates that the vast majority of people don't think it is acceptable to show any form of bigotry.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What i cant understand is people who take any notice of a goverment poll! whats worse is when you get one who spins it to 570,000 of the popultation,they are only words,you know like backboard,gollywog,blackman ice cream ect..Its just another form of control from your squeaky clean govertments past and pressent.

Only words like fascist, racist and bully, are only words?

[HibsMax]

Check out this story. Can you imagine how he might feel if he was ever witness to an OF game? LOL.

LINK (http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Catholic-school-upets-foe-with-8220-We-8217-v?urn=highschool-wp5697)

[--------]

Check out this story. Can you imagine how he might feel if he was ever witness to an OF game? LOL.

LINK (http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Catholic-school-upets-foe-with-8220-We-8217-v?urn=highschool-wp5697)


Bemused is how I feel. Weird! :rolleyes:

[Bishop Hibee]

An individual can run on a football pitch swerving past a member of the opposing team's coaching staff and attack the opposition manager, a well known Irish catholic while shouting "Fenian *******" yet it is not regarded as a sectarian attack by a Scottish jury.

These figures are sadly hardly a surprise.

[BurghHibby]

Living in the east of the country I tend to think that we are not subject to the same levels of sectarianism as in the west, however I was shocked to hear of an incident at my son's U14 match on Sunday.
His team's some time captain (a hun fan) called one of their central defenders a fienian b****** while in the process of blaming him for the loss of a goal, the referee overheard this and pulled them both aside to have a word with them.
He stated that if the offender had said this to an opposing player he would have sent him off and reported him to the SFA which would probably have culminated in a season's ban, as it was he only got a telling off from the referee and I believe the club is giving him a one game ban!
I'm not sure how to view this as I wouldn't like to see the player banned for the season (hun or no) however I don't think this should be tolerated and basically swept under the carpet especially at this level.

[HibsMax]

Living in the east of the country I tend to think that we are not subject to the same levels of sectarianism as in the west, however I was shocked to hear of an incident at my son's U14 match on Sunday.
His team's some time captain (a hun fan) called one of their central defenders a fienian b****** while in the process of blaming him for the loss of a goal, the referee overheard this and pulled them both aside to have a word with them.
He stated that if the offender had said this to an opposing player he would have sent him off and reported him to the SFA which would probably have culminated in a season's ban, as it was he only got a telling off from the referee and I believe the club is giving him a one game ban!
I'm not sure how to view this as I wouldn't like to see the player banned for the season (hun or no) however I don't think this should be tolerated and basically swept under the carpet especially at this level.

First occurrence = stiff ban but not the whole season
Second occurrence = season-long ban

IMO

[joe breezy]

An individual can run on a football pitch swerving past a member of the opposing team's coaching staff and attack the opposition manager, a well known Irish catholic while shouting "Fenian *******" yet it is not regarded as a sectarian attack by a Scottish jury.

These figures are sadly hardly a surprise.

It doesn't quantify the exact question.
If someone said to me do you find sectarianism offensive I would say no because I don't feel offended by it.

It's stupid and ridiculous as there is no rational proof for a god in the first place.

Secondly people arguing over what is the same religion in essence is silly

Thirdly bigot behaviour isn't really sectarian as sectarian is about groups of people being against each other due to religious differences and I think most bigots aren't truly religious

It's a load of antiquated nonsense and it's hard to believe it still goes on

[HibsMax]

It doesn't quantify the exact question.
If someone said to me do you find sectarianism offensive I would say no because I don't feel offended by it.

It's stupid and ridiculous as there is no rational proof for a god in the first place.

Secondly people arguing over what is the same religion in essence is silly

Thirdly bigot behaviour isn't really sectarian as sectarian is about people groups of people being against each other due to religious differences and I think most bigots aren't truly religious

It's a load of antiquated nonsense and it's hard to believe it still goes on

I hear what you're saying but, IMO, it's about tolerance. I don't believe in a God either but that's not to say that I will ridicule those who do (at least not in public) because that would be offensive to them.

[joe breezy]

Yeah I suppose the term sectarian in Scotland isn't just religion it's about being bigoted against people of Irish immigrant origin so it's a form of irrational hate

Whatever it's nonsense - obviously still goes on when you see what happened to Lennon and the songs Hearts and Rangers sing

I hate Celtic too but I personally think they're less sectarian as such but their away support are happy to sing about terrorism

[Hibs On Tour]

Cat among the pidgeons time :greengrin

Lets put the figures in a little different context. Could they instead mean that the respondants don't consider it a major problem? For example, I recognise its an issue but I don't for a minute think that its an issue big enough or more worthy of £2m of public funding [for the dedicated police unit] before things like neo-natal beds [of which there aren't nearly enough of in Scotland]

Discuss...

[connerg]

I like Salmond, apart from him being a jambo, but and it's a big but, he called a summit with the ugly sisters and the police over two manager's having a shoving match on the touchline then gives them £250k each to deal with a problem that the pair of them thrive on, and encourage through their insipid marketing machine.
Worse of all was a manager being attacked on the touchline but no summit by the Scottish goverment, no intervention by Salmond! Is he a jambo? I voted SNP in the last election BTW.