Scottish Tories to reform?

[steakbake]

That Murdo Fraser wants to reform the Scottish Tories as a distinct party. Think someone said a few years ago that the Tories were viewed as being a toxic brand.

Anyhow, its a nice strategy: Scottish politics needs a credible, centre right voice. That said, if it looks like the Tories, talks like the Tories and thinks like the Tories, I don't really see what difference it will make.

I always thought that a centre right party which had a pragmatic and open mind to the constitutional future might actually do relatively well... but that's not what I think he's proposing.

Is it possible to detoxify the Tories just by changing their name? Discuss.

[Hibs Class]

I suspect it will be dismissed as a sweeping generalisation but I think a large proportion of Scots have a closed mind as to whom they will or will not vote for. In the same way as you could stick a red rosette on a monkey in parts of Scotland and it would still be elected, so there are people who would never vote tory because of thatcher, the poll tax, etc.

[hibsbollah]

Its very possible and its a good strategy. Scotland should be reasonably fertile territory for centre-right politics. I would think the new embryo would have to abandon its unionist baggage and resell itself as the party of mondeo-driving, golf playing, banking middle management, murrayfield debenture-holding, cry-his-eyes-out-at-braveheart type dude.

Goodbye Marathon Hello Snickers.

[Beefster]

A credible, independent centre-right party is badly needed in Scotland and if they can prove that they're not a renamed branch of the Tories, they'll do better. Murdo Fraser isn't the man to lead them though. They need someone with charisma and Fraser is plenty of things (most of them negative) but charismatic isnt one of them.

[RyeSloan]

A credible, independent centre-right party is badly needed in Scotland and if they can prove that they're not a renamed branch of the Tories, they'll do better. Murdo Fraser isn't the man to lead them though. They need someone with charisma and Fraser is plenty of things (most of them negative) but charismatic isnt one of them.

Agreed. Good democracies are all about balance and due to the ‘toxic’ Tory brand north of the border there is little to balance out the left leaning tendencies of the SNP and Labour.

A new and independent centre right party would quickly gain significantly more support than the Scottish Tories can muster just now I would say. However it would have to very clear on how it was not the old Tories in new clothes or it would fail pretty quickly to make any progress.

I see the proposal has caused a few ructions already, maybe the supporters of such a plan should just split from the Tories, leave them with the forever damaged ‘brand’ and start a new party. Leaving a weakened and unloved Scottish Tory party still in existence would be an excellent way to rebuff the ‘old Tories in a different guise’ attacks as they could quite easily point out that the old Tories still exist.

This is possibly more evidence that the devolved Scotland is finally coming of age and I’m all for more ‘Scotland only’ parties being created, I have no idea why the SNP should be left to be the only party that claims to represent Scotland and by the looks of it they might not be for much longer.

[magpie1892]

A credible, independent centre-right party is badly needed in Scotland and if they can prove that they're not a renamed branch of the Tories, they'll do better. Murdo Fraser isn't the man to lead them though. They need someone with charisma and Fraser is plenty of things (most of them negative) but charismatic isnt one of them.

I'd agree with that. I had some legal dealings with Mr Fraser in the early 90s and found him to be pleasant and competent but utterly lacking the verve needed not only to lead a political party but also, as is his intention, a 'brand new' one.

The overall plan strikes me as a decent one, and bold, but I'm struggling to see how it could be done in practice. Certainly not going to happen with Fraser in charge, not that I think he'll win the leadership anyhow. A 'new' centre-right party could make gains, but with any of the Scottish Tories on board? Well, I wouldn't buy it for one and I'd never vote for any of the other 'big three'. (Nor the Tories, but I hope my point is made - there's enough people here who think I am a fascist anyway).

[ginger_rice]

Think I'm correct in saying that up until the 60s they were a separate entity from the London Tory party.

I wonder what name they'd go under, Scottish Unionists, wonder who that would appeal to :devil:

Apart from Brian Montieth that is!

[Hainan Hibs]

As many commentators have said it's not just a name change that is needed, it is a complete over-haul of their policies.

I would suggest something along the lines of "The Scottish Independence Party" :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

If a right leaning party was to form and campaign for Scotland to be independent of both Westminster and the European Union, it would experience the sort of win at the next Scottish elections, that would put the scale of the SNP's victory, earlier this year, to shame.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is the kind of change that Murdo Fraser is proposing.

[CropleyWasGod]

If a right leaning party was to form and campaign for Scotland to be independent of both Westminster and the European Union, it would experience the sort of win at the next Scottish elections, that would put the scale of the SNP's victory, earlier this year, to shame.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is the kind of change that Murdo Fraser is proposing.

... there's one major flaw in your argument.

The other is the idea that Scotland would become politically isolated from the UK and Europe. That's what the SNP of the 70's proposed, and it scared the bejesus out of people.

Landslide defeat rather than landslide win, I would expect.

[Beefster]

If a right leaning party was to form and campaign for Scotland to be independent of both Westminster and the European Union, it would experience the sort of win at the next Scottish elections, that would put the scale of the SNP's victory, earlier this year, to shame.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is the kind of change that Murdo Fraser is proposing.

Like UKIP, you mean?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Won't be allowed to happen, I mean can you imagine a political party in Scotland acting independently of it's parent party in London, that would be taking devolution a step too far surely!!

Even if it did happen though the party would still be the tories, I can call myself slim and well shaven all I want, I'm still a fat hairy bstard though.

[da-robster]

If a right leaning party was to form and campaign for Scotland to be independent of both Westminster and the European Union, it would experience the sort of win at the next Scottish elections, that would put the scale of the SNP's victory, earlier this year, to shame.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is the kind of change that Murdo Fraser is proposing.


There is no way that a right leaning party in Scotland would get a majority in Scotland, it's clear that the Scottish conservatives are so toxic that they are underperforming the natural centre right vote in Scotland, but we are way too left wing a country as a whole to vote in conservatives, and its exceedingly rare any way for a multi party system to have a clear majority. A conservative majority i wishfuls thinking for you.

[lyonhibs]

]If a right leaning party was to form and campaign for Scotland to be independent of both Westminster and the European Union, it would experience the sort of win at the next Scottish elections, that would put the scale of the SNP's victory, earlier this year, to shame.
[/B]
Unfortunately, I don't think that is the kind of change that Murdo Fraser is proposing.

Can I put forward the motion that that statement is a load of absolute bollocks??

Methinks a lot more people in Scotland can keep rational for long enough to see the benefits of the Union and/or the EU than you think.

[hibsbollah]

If a right leaning party was to form and campaign Scotland to be independent of both Westminster and the European Union, it would experience the sort of win at the next Scottish elections, that would put the scale of the SNP's victory, earlier this year, to shame.



Blimey. I think Hibs.net's own Central Scotland version of Nigel Farage has been at the cooking sherry :greengrin

Do you have any reasoning behind this wild statement or are you just feeling optimistic?

[--------]

Its very possible and its a good strategy. Scotland should be reasonably fertile territory for centre-right politics. I would think the new embryo would have to abandon its unionist baggage and resell itself as the party of mondeo-driving, golf playing, banking middle management, murrayfield debenture-holding, cry-his-eyes-out-at-braveheart type dude.

Goodbye Marathon Hello Snickers.

You mean UKIP (Scotland) PLC?


Oh. I see someone else's had the same thought.

So will Murdo change his name to Niggle McPorridge?

[One Day Soon]

What do you imagine a right of centre political party in Scotland would have as its main political themes?

[steakbake]

smaller state, lower taxation, devolution and competition in service provision, depending on whether it is a repackaged unionist party; a view on the constitutional settlement, pro-entrepreneurship and business start up, socially libertarian or conservative (though libertarian for me anyway, is best).

... the usual small-state free-market party found in most functioning democracies.

[Sir David Gray]

... there's one major flaw in your argument.

The other is the idea that Scotland would become politically isolated from the UK and Europe. That's what the SNP of the 70's proposed, and it scared the bejesus out of people.

Landslide defeat rather than landslide win, I would expect.

I'm not so sure that it would be a landslide defeat at all. The SNP are, allegedly, a pro-independence party and they've just won a huge majority in the Scottish Parliament, so there is clearly some support for independence from the rest of the UK. The problem I have with the SNP, well one of the problems anyway, as I have several issues with them, is that they call themselves a pro-independence party, campaign for Scotland to come out of the UK, but the first thing that they would do is sign us up at Brussels and almost certainly hand even more control over Scottish affairs to a third party than we have at the moment. How can any self respecting independence campaigner agree to, effectively, demanding powers back from Westminster and in the same breath giving them away again to the EU?

Pulling out of the European Union is, in my opinion, one of the biggest issues that we, as a nation, have been deprived of a referendum on for years. The only assumption I can take from that is that the politicians are absolutely petrified that the electorate, who are completely sick and tired of being dictated to by a bunch of unaccountable people based in a foreign country, would overwhelmingly vote in favour of our withdrawal from the EU.

Given the mayhem that has engulfed the eurozone nations over recent months and the uncertain future for the euro, I would be absolutely delighted if Scotland was to be "politically isolated from Europe".


Like UKIP, you mean?

No, not like UKIP at all.

I like UKIP and agree with a lot of their policies, however they can hardly be described as being advocates of the cause for Scottish independence. The one problem I have with them is that they are pretty England orientated and they are clearly staunch supporters of the United Kingdom, although I don't see that as a problem, as such.

However, you do raise an interesting point by bringing up UKIP. At the last European elections in 2009, UKIP came second in the overall result and almost 2.5 million people voted for them. In Scotland, admittedly, they didn't do quite as well as that. However, outside of the "big four", only the Greens got more votes than them. Clearly there is a fair amount of support in Scotland for euroscepticism.

To me, the problem that most right wing parties in Scotland face is that there is this perception that they are too closely linked with England. The Conservatives are seen as being very English orientated and, as I've said already, so are UKIP. That is why I believe that there is great potential for a right of centre party in Scotland, one that is openly Scottish and stands up for Scottish affairs. I think there is a vacuum there, a gap in the market if you like, and I really think someone would be onto a real winner if they were to establish such a party. At the moment, any right of centre party I've come across in the UK, regardless of whatever other issues they might campaign for, their default position always seems to be staunchly unionist.

I think it would be interesting and actually quite refreshing to see how a pro-independence, right of centre party in Scotland would get on, particularly if it campaigned for an independent Scotland to stay out of the EU.

It would certainly get my vote every single time.


Can I put forward the motion that that statement is a load of absolute bollocks??

Methinks a lot more people in Scotland can keep rational for long enough to see the benefits of the Union and/or the EU than you think.

Please don't sit on the fence, tell me what you really feel! :greengrin

I'm actually not too fussed either way about independence from Westminster. I can take it or leave it most of the time.

I'm definitely not one of those Scottish people who goes banging on about getting away from England and separation and all that. If it happens, then it happens.

The main issue for me is the European Union and I am opposed to my country being a member state of that organisation, regardless of whether we're talking about my country being the United Kingdom or an independent Scottish state.

I don't see the benefit of Britain paying billions of pounds each year to Brussels, money that we can ill-afford to spend, just so we can have people over there telling us what we can and can't do. We've got our own parliament and our own lawmakers for that. The end result is going to eventually be a European superstate and there is no way that I would ever be in favour of that.


There is no way that a right leaning party in Scotland would get a majority in Scotland, it's clear that the Scottish conservatives are so toxic that they are underperforming the natural centre right vote in Scotland, but we are way too left wing a country as a whole to vote in conservatives, and its exceedingly rare any way for a multi party system to have a clear majority. A conservative majority i wishfuls thinking for you.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

It was only around 20 years ago that the Conservatives in Scotland had almost double the support that the SNP had and they had 11 MPs in Westminster from Scotland.

They were completely wiped out in 1997, in Tony Blair's landslide victory, and they've failed to ever recover from that.

That's not to say that they, or another right wing party, cannot do well in the future though. Unfortunately Scotland seems to suffer from this incurable obsession with overwhelmingly voting for Labour in every single General Election. Even last year, when the Labour party was falling apart and experiencing disastrous results almost everywhere else in the UK, their share of the vote in Scotland actually went UP!

That's not just a problem that is experienced by right wing parties in Scotland. Even the SNP, who had such a massive victory in the Scottish elections this year, get absolutely nowhere near Labour when it comes to a UK election.

[greenlex]

Scotland should become an American State. If Hawaii can do it so should we. That would show those English *******s whos boss.Scotland the 51st State. Its got a bit of a ring to it.

[Twa Cairpets]

I'm not so sure that it would be a landslide defeat at all. The SNP are, allegedly, a pro-independence party and they've just won a huge majority in the Scottish Parliament, so there is clearly some support for independence from the rest of the UK. The problem I have with the SNP, well one of the problems anyway, as I have several issues with them, is that they call themselves a pro-independence party, campaign for Scotland to come out of the UK, but the first thing that they would do is sign us up at Brussels and almost certainly hand even more control over Scottish affairs to a third party than we have at the moment. How can any self respecting independence campaigner agree to, effectively, demanding powers back from Westminster and in the same breath giving them away again to the EU?

Pulling out of the European Union is, in my opinion, one of the biggest issues that we, as a nation, have been deprived of a referendum on for years. The only assumption I can take from that is that the politicians are absolutely petrified that the electorate, who are completely sick and tired of being dictated to by a bunch of unaccountable people based in a foreign country, would overwhelmingly vote in favour of our withdrawal from the EU.

Given the mayhem that has engulfed the eurozone nations over recent months and the uncertain future for the euro, I would be absolutely delighted if Scotland was to be "politically isolated from Europe"...

...I think it would be interesting and actually quite refreshing to see how a pro-independence, right of centre party in Scotland would get on, particularly if it campaigned for an independent Scotland to stay out of the EU.
It would certainly get my vote every single time...

...The main issue for me is the European Union and I am opposed to my country being a member state of that organisation, regardless of whether we're talking about my country being the United Kingdom or an independent Scottish state.

I don't see the benefit of Britain paying billions of pounds each year to Brussels, money that we can ill-afford to spend, just so we can have people over there telling us what we can and can't do. We've got our own parliament and our own lawmakers for that. The end result is going to eventually be a European superstate and there is no way that I would ever be in favour of that.



The reason why such a party doesnt exist is that even the most rabid independence advocate realises that Scotland, out on a geographic extremity of the continent would be utterly isolated and cut off from our trading partners, including England. I havent time to look up data, but I would think that per capita, Scotland does rather well by way of funded or partly funded projects from the EU.

One thing that all the main Scottish parties realise is that as a nation, either part of the UK or independent, the reality of the situation is that we are significantly stronger as part of the EU, even with its issues.

You are also clearly just wrong in your thinking in the first paragraph. Independence would bring the powers that are Westminsters back to Holyrood. The powers that are currently with Europe would remain there - its not a case of "here you go Brussels, you can take all this stuff back off us again..."

Finally, your comment on UKIP's performance in the election is both incorrect and irrelevant. they actually finished 5th overall in the General Election (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stm). They had a grand total of 17,223 sad and deluded individuals placing their cross at their name, being guided by Daily Mail editorials but without the plums to go the whole hog and vote BNP.

[Dashing Bob S]

Its very possible and its a good strategy. Scotland should be reasonably fertile territory for centre-right politics. I would think the new embryo would have to abandon its unionist baggage and resell itself as the party of mondeo-driving, golf playing, banking middle management, murrayfield debenture-holding, cry-his-eyes-out-at-braveheart type dude.

Goodbye Marathon Hello Snickers.


Sounds rather juicy. :hmmm: Shame about the centre-right politics.

[steakbake]

Recent polling evidence suggests that Europe/Membership of the EU is a concern for a whopping 4% of the population.

[Future17]

Recent polling evidence suggests that Europe/Membership of the EU is a concern for a whopping 4% of the population.

Wait until Greece gets booted out of the Euro and we'll see if 96% of the population is unconcerned.

[Don Giovanni]

Recent polling evidence suggests that Europe/Membership of the EU is a concern for a whopping 4% of the population. The population is probably concerning itself with trivial domestic issues such as employment...!

[da-robster]

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

It was only around 20 years ago that the Conservatives in Scotland had almost double the support that the SNP had and they had 11 MPs in Westminster from Scotland.

They were completely wiped out in 1997, in Tony Blair's landslide victory, and they've failed to ever recover from that.

That's not to say that they, or another right wing party, cannot do well in the future though. Unfortunately Scotland seems to suffer from this incurable obsession with overwhelmingly voting for Labour in every single General Election. Even last year, when the Labour party was falling apart and experiencing disastrous results almost everywhere else in the UK, their share of the vote in Scotland actually went UP!

That's not just a problem that is experienced by right wing parties in Scotland. Even the SNP, who had such a massive victory in the Scottish elections this year, get absolutely nowhere near Labour when it comes to a UK election.

11 out of 59 won't give you a majority anywhere, I'm not arguing the hypothetical party wouldn't be as successful as the current, it would undoubtedly be more so, but I can't see a right wing party of the sort you advocate (a super moderate new labour type could win nationwide) getting a majority in Scotland in the next 50 years barring a series of incredibly unrealistic events.