Merchant Navy Day

[Lucius Apuleius]

To day is Merchant Navy Day 2011. Every year we acknowledge (quite rightly) the sacrifices made by our armed forces in various conflicts. The MN is of course not an armed service and for many many years was never even considered when it came to memorials. Thankfully this is changing and this will be the 12th Merchant Navy Day. Spare a little thought for the, mostly men, who sailed in convoys to the Artic, to Murmansk, the Atlantic and every other ocean in the world through weather and storms you can only dream of to bring food and sustenance to the UK during wars and in peace time. These ships were not armed (in the majority of cases)and were totally at the mercy of any Axis subs or warships. Passenger ships were also attacked for some strange reason. As the poem below says, we have no graves to visit to honour these people, but those of us who followed in their footsteps on the ships of today know the sacrifices that were made.

No cross marks the place where now we lie
What happened is known but to us
You asked, and we gave our lives to protect
Our land from the enemy curse
No Flanders Field where poppies blow;
No Gleaming Crosses, row on row;
No Unnamed Tomb for all to see
And pause -- and wonder who we might be
The Sailors’ Valhalla is where we lie
On the ocean bed, watching ships pass by
Sailing in safety now thru’ the waves
Often right over our sea-locked graves
We ask you just to remember us.

[Hibs Class]

Good post. As far as I'm aware the arctic convoys didnt get specific recognition yet they suffered particular hardship and setting off on the atlantic convoys must have also been horrendous. More recently they also played a key part in the falklands campaign where the atlantic conveyor was lost in an attack that the argentinians hoped had sunk an aircraft carrier. IIRC the captain went down with his ship then as well. Very brave men and, as you say, a sacrifice often overlooked.

[Haymaker]

My brother is in the merchant navy, it is risky and dangerous and they get very little credit.

The small memorial in Southampton isnt enough IMO.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Thanks guys. Obviously i have an interest as I had 28 years at sea. What is worse though is the way the British governments over successive regimes have allowed the MN to deteriorate to such an extent that we could not give the cover we gave in the Falklands without chartering in foreign flagged ships. I joined BP tankers in '75 when they had around 120 ships with about 35 crew on each. made redundant by BP in '86 when they flagged out and we were down to less than 30 ships with about 22 of a crew. And that is just one shipping company. BP actually held out longer than most before going over to flags of convenience. Interesting to see what happens in any future conflicts.

[CFC]

RIP. My great grandad was in the MN at Leith port during the 2nd world war, full respect to those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

[RyeSloan]

Thanks guys. Obviously i have an interest as I had 28 years at sea. What is worse though is the way the British governments over successive regimes have allowed the MN to deteriorate to such an extent that we could not give the cover we gave in the Falklands without chartering in foreign flagged ships. I joined BP tankers in '75 when they had around 120 ships with about 35 crew on each. made redundant by BP in '86 when they flagged out and we were down to less than 30 ships with about 22 of a crew. And that is just one shipping company. BP actually held out longer than most before going over to flags of convenience. Interesting to see what happens in any future conflicts.

Got to agree with the posts above re the sacrifice so many people have made...in these cosied times it's hard quite to understand what some went through.

Excuse my ignorance but when you say 'flags of convenience' what does that mean in reality and how does the british government have any direct influence on the merchant navy? Is it related to the MoD in anyway?

[marinello59]

Thanks guys. Obviously i have an interest as I had 28 years at sea. What is worse though is the way the British governments over successive regimes have allowed the MN to deteriorate to such an extent that we could not give the cover we gave in the Falklands without chartering in foreign flagged ships. I joined BP tankers in '75 when they had around 120 ships with about 35 crew on each. made redundant by BP in '86 when they flagged out and we were down to less than 30 ships with about 22 of a crew. And that is just one shipping company. BP actually held out longer than most before going over to flags of convenience. Interesting to see what happens in any future conflicts.

I was with Ellerman City Liners. We went from being one of the biggest Cargo liner fleets to a rump of two or three ships in less than a decade which was fairly typical. Ben Line , Bank Line etc all followed a similar path And the Governments said next to nothing about what was happening. The queues at the Pool in Glasgow in the early eighties were soul destroying.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Got to agree with the posts above re the sacrifice so many people have made...in these cosied times it's hard quite to understand what some went through.

Excuse my ignorance but when you say 'flags of convenience' what does that mean in reality and how does the british government have any direct influence on the merchant navy? Is it related to the MoD in anyway?

Easiest way to describe a flag of convenience is this. A company, lets say BP Shipping, decides to register their ships in lets say Hong Kong. This means they do not have to employ British seamen and can use cheap labour instead. It also gives them a lot of different tax breaks as they are not liable for some taxes etc in their own country. MOre worryingly is the fact they are not subject to the regulations laid down in their own country regarding operating procedures etc. Something that, I can assure you, has endangered the lives of many many foreign seamen. No direct tie in with the MOD at all, except in times of conflict when they need tankers to fuel their ships and planes etc. Exception to that are RFA vessels which do have a MOD tie in but way way not enough to look after the services in the event of war.


I was with Ellerman City Liners. We went from being one of the biggest Cargo liner fleets to a rump of two or three ships in less than a decade which was fairly typical. Ben Line , Bank Line etc all followed a similar path And the Governments said next to nothing about what was happening. The queues at the Pool in Glasgow in the early eighties were soul destroying.

It was a bloody discgrace the way the governments did nothing mate. Everyone up in arms when such and such a factory closed etc, not a word about the systematic decimation of the merchant fleet.

[(((Fergus)))]

I knew the Merchant Navy had it bad in WWII, but having looked up on Wikipedia it seems that they accounted for nearly 10% of all UK killed, military and civilian, between 1939 and 1945. Incredible courage to do what they did.

[RyeSloan]

Easiest way to describe a flag of convenience is this. A company, lets say BP Shipping, decides to register their ships in lets say Hong Kong. This means they do not have to employ British seamen and can use cheap labour instead. It also gives them a lot of different tax breaks as they are not liable for some taxes etc in their own country. MOre worryingly is the fact they are not subject to the regulations laid down in their own country regarding operating procedures etc. Something that, I can assure you, has endangered the lives of many many foreign seamen. No direct tie in with the MOD at all, except in times of conflict when they need tankers to fuel their ships and planes etc. Exception to that are RFA vessels which do have a MOD tie in but way way not enough to look after the services in the event of war.



It was a bloody discgrace the way the governments did nothing mate. Everyone up in arms when such and such a factory closed etc, not a word about the systematic decimation of the merchant fleet.

Thanks for the reply.

It sounds like the merchant navy was one of the first industries to be off shored (if you excuse the very poor pun).
I understand why the decline of a once proud industry causes you and others who were involved in it a lot of pain but from a neutral standpoint I’m not sure quite what could have been done to stop it. It seems easy to blame ‘the government’ but it seems to me that it was overseas countries lower safety and employment laws that has driven this not the direct action of the British governments of the time. I also suppose that by it’s very nature merchant fleets were at the vanguard of globalisation and that as we all know is a pretty unforgiving force.

Don’t suppose that makes the decline any less sad in terms of a once great tradition being eroded though. Has this decline been reflected in other previously significant western fleets…I would imagine the Dutch would have had one of the worlds first and biggest merchant fleets being such great traders?

[Lucius Apuleius]

Thanks for the reply.

It sounds like the merchant navy was one of the first industries to be off shored (if you excuse the very poor pun).
I understand why the decline of a once proud industry causes you and others who were involved in it a lot of pain but from a neutral standpoint I’m not sure quite what could have been done to stop it. It seems easy to blame ‘the government’ but it seems to me that it was overseas countries lower safety and employment laws that has driven this not the direct action of the British governments of the time. I also suppose that by it’s very nature merchant fleets were at the vanguard of globalisation and that as we all know is a pretty unforgiving force.

Don’t suppose that makes the decline any less sad in terms of a once great tradition being eroded though. Has this decline been reflected in other previously significant western fleets…I would imagine the Dutch would have had one of the worlds first and biggest merchant fleets being such great traders?

You are correct Si, it wasn't what the government did, it was what they did not do. Remember some of these companies were amongst the biggest companies in the UK, never mind just shipping. It wasn't so much the jobs that got me, very selfishly I was OK when BP flagged out as I was in the North Sea at the time, so just changed companies. It was the deterioration in standards that really affected shipping all over the world. One good thing, in my opinion, was eventually groups like the ITF (International Transport Federation) and IMO (International Maritime Organization) got a lot of the conditions and HSE stuff sorted out so as these guys could sail in safety. Problem then was companies flagged out to even more obscure places. I was even on one that was registered in the Marshall Islands. Try and find that blob of land somewhere!!! And that was a Shell tanker. Other countries fleets did decline as well. Some more than others. Some governments did step in and told their native shipowners they could not flag out.

From a purely personal point of view, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I got a wadge of cash from BP, worked for another company the next day on the same ship on a higher salary, and a career path to where I am now. I would not have had that should I have stayed with BP. That obviously is not the point as tens of thousands of Brits were either thrown on the dole or had to sign on substandard, extremely dangerous vessels at much lower wages, none of which was ever reported at the time in any big way. All of this has led to where the MN is now and the main thing is the unavailability of vessels to support the UK should the need arise again in the future. For example, we can hardly charter Chinese ships to bring us food and oil if we are at war with China. Extreme example but sure you get my point.

[Neil4Hibs]

Another ex-Merchant Navy seaman here. I spent over 4 years working hard as a deck cadet with P&O and then passed everything to get my Second Mate's ticket and become a Third Officer. Within 6 months I was made redundent as the MN was pretty much obliterated in 1981. There were many more in the same siuation - what a waste. At least I was young enough to start a new career, but I would have loved to have been at sea for longer. I miss it more now though, 30 years on, than I probably did at the time!

It is good to see a Merchant Navy day starting to get a higher profile.

[Haymaker]

Thanks guys. Obviously i have an interest as I had 28 years at sea. What is worse though is the way the British governments over successive regimes have allowed the MN to deteriorate to such an extent that we could not give the cover we gave in the Falklands without chartering in foreign flagged ships. I joined BP tankers in '75 when they had around 120 ships with about 35 crew on each. made redundant by BP in '86 when they flagged out and we were down to less than 30 ships with about 22 of a crew. And that is just one shipping company. BP actually held out longer than most before going over to flags of convenience. Interesting to see what happens in any future conflicts.

I find it very strange that it seems to be cheaper for my brothers company to fly him and all the others to China and sail their boats all the way round africa to do their work between aberdeen and ghana?

One of his friends from his Warsash days did his time as a cadet then was sacked when he qualified because his company didnt hire rating British enginneers due to the cost only cadets.

[RyeSloan]

You are correct Si, it wasn't what the government did, it was what they did not do. Remember some of these companies were amongst the biggest companies in the UK, never mind just shipping. It wasn't so much the jobs that got me, very selfishly I was OK when BP flagged out as I was in the North Sea at the time, so just changed companies. It was the deterioration in standards that really affected shipping all over the world. One good thing, in my opinion, was eventually groups like the ITF (International Transport Federation) and IMO (International Maritime Organization) got a lot of the conditions and HSE stuff sorted out so as these guys could sail in safety. Problem then was companies flagged out to even more obscure places. I was even on one that was registered in the Marshall Islands. Try and find that blob of land somewhere!!! And that was a Shell tanker. Other countries fleets did decline as well. Some more than others. Some governments did step in and told their native shipowners they could not flag out.

From a purely personal point of view, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I got a wadge of cash from BP, worked for another company the next day on the same ship on a higher salary, and a career path to where I am now. I would not have had that should I have stayed with BP. That obviously is not the point as tens of thousands of Brits were either thrown on the dole or had to sign on substandard, extremely dangerous vessels at much lower wages, none of which was ever reported at the time in any big way. All of this has led to where the MN is now and the main thing is the unavailability of vessels to support the UK should the need arise again in the future. For example, we can hardly charter Chinese ships to bring us food and oil if we are at war with China. Extreme example but sure you get my point.

Ahh the shipping heavy weight of the world...the Marshall Islands!! :greengrin Tis amazing what some companies will do to cut costs (or should that read corners)

Glad it all worked out for you in the end but as you say the MN would no longer be able to support the UK in anything like the fashion it did before. I suppose this really just refelcts the general decline of the UK as a 'power' across the board, I'm sure the RAF and the Navy and not to mention our now almost non existant navy air arm would agree with you completely on this.

[ginger_rice]

No cross marks the place where now we lie
What happened is known but to us
You asked, and we gave our lives to protect
Our land from the enemy curse
No Flanders Field where poppies blow;
No Gleaming Crosses, row on row;
No Unnamed Tomb for all to see
And pause -- and wonder who we might be
The Sailors’ Valhalla is where we lie
On the ocean bed, watching ships pass by
Sailing in safety now thru’ the waves
Often right over our sea-locked graves
We ask you just to remember us.

RIP shipmates

[ginger_rice]

Ahh the shipping heavy weight of the world...the Marshall Islands!! :greengrin Tis amazing what some companies will do to cut costs (or should that read corners)

Glad it all worked out for you in the end but as you say the MN would no longer be able to support the UK in anything like the fashion it did before. I suppose this really just refelcts the general decline of the UK as a 'power' across the board, I'm sure the RAF and the Navy and not to mention our now almost non existant navy air arm would agree with you completely on this.

As an ex-matelot I totally agree when I joined the RN there were 93,000 in the service, think it's down to about 30k now and something like 16 ships at sea, at any one time.

Hopefully there will never be another conflict like the 2 world wars, cos if there are we'll all starve, with very few merchant ships and not a hope in hell of the RN being able to protect those which are left.

The big problem IMHO is that successive governments still want to be the "big global power" and to be that you need to be in the nuclear club, think of all the billions which we use up for trident. I think that we should use the money to ensure that we have a decent mercantile marine able to support us in time of need and a defensive naval force able to protect said merchant ships in time of need...for instance we have IIRC one frigate off the African coast on anti pirate patrol, where we should be able to have at least a squadron of ships, the RN now has no squadrons as there aren't enough ships to form them, never mind flotillas!

Any hoo, thanks for highlighting MN day GT, give us a heads up earlier next year and I'll see if we can organise something at Stirling war memorial

[Hibrandenburg]

The merchant navy done more than their fair share in putting the Great in Great Britain.

I'm quite shocked that we don't have this already.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Any hoo, thanks for highlighting MN day GT, give us a heads up earlier next year and I'll see if we can organise something at Stirling war memorial


I will do mate. Am I going stupid or was there a MN memorial unveiled in Grangemouth earlier this year? Can find nothing in the Falkirk Herald but I am sure I read about it.

[Hibs Class]

I will do mate. Am I going stupid or was there a MN memorial unveiled in Grangemouth earlier this year? Can find nothing in the Falkirk Herald but I am sure I read about it.

There was one done in Camelon in February - not sure if that's what you might have in mind?

http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/about_council/news/article.aspx?pid=1646

[Lucius Apuleius]

There was one done in Camelon in February - not sure if that's what you might have in mind?

http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/about_council/news/article.aspx?pid=1646

That could be exactly the one I was thinking of Mr Class. Thank you sir. No idea why I thought it was in Grangemouth though. Camelon is nearer anyway :greengrin

As an aside, when I was looking for it on the web I came across a couple of web pages talking about Central Scotland Airfield in Grangemouth that I found really interesting. The more I read about it the more I recalled having read it before, but nevertheless extremely interesting. :agree:

[--------]

To day is Merchant Navy Day 2011. Every year we acknowledge (quite rightly) the sacrifices made by our armed forces in various conflicts. The MN is of course not an armed service and for many many years was never even considered when it came to memorials. Thankfully this is changing and this will be the 12th Merchant Navy Day. Spare a little thought for the, mostly men, who sailed in convoys to the Artic, to Murmansk, the Atlantic and every other ocean in the world through weather and storms you can only dream of to bring food and sustenance to the UK during wars and in peace time. These ships were not armed (in the majority of cases)and were totally at the mercy of any Axis subs or warships. Passenger ships were also attacked for some strange reason. As the poem below says, we have no graves to visit to honour these people, but those of us who followed in their footsteps on the ships of today know the sacrifices that were made.

No cross marks the place where now we lie
What happened is known but to us
You asked, and we gave our lives to protect
Our land from the enemy curse
No Flanders Field where poppies blow;
No Gleaming Crosses, row on row;
No Unnamed Tomb for all to see
And pause -- and wonder who we might be
The Sailors’ Valhalla is where we lie
On the ocean bed, watching ships pass by
Sailing in safety now thru’ the waves
Often right over our sea-locked graves
We ask you just to remember us.


Only just saw this, LA. Apologies for not acknowledging it.

The sacrifice of the Merchant Navy men in both World Wars can't be overstated.

Lousy conditions, rotten food, freezing cold and constant danger. The thought of shipping on an oil tanker, an avgas tanker or an ammunition ship in wartime just doesn't bear thinking about. Virtually no hope of rescue - standing orders were that no one stopped to pick up survivors with submarines still around. And no thanks either - merchant seamen were regularly attacked when they were on shore by 'heroes' who thought they were dodging the call-up. (The 'heroes' were usually dodging the call-up themselves, of course.)

I used to know a man who worked in Leith Docks who shipped on the Murmansk run - he was 15 when he started in 1942 and somehow survived to tell the tale, and it wasn't a pretty one.

I believe that the men's wages - such as they were - were stopped from the moment the ship was torpedoed. No pensions for their families, either.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Only just saw this, LA. Apologies for not acknowledging it.

The sacrifice of the Merchant Navy men in both World Wars can't be overstated.

Lousy conditions, rotten food, freezing cold and constant danger. The thought of shipping on an oil tanker, an avgas tanker or an ammunition ship in wartime just doesn't bear thinking about. Virtually no hope of rescue - standing orders were that no one stopped to pick up survivors with submarines still around. And no thanks either - merchant seamen were regularly attacked when they were on shore by 'heroes' who thought they were dodging the call-up. (The 'heroes' were usually dodging the call-up themselves, of course.)

I used to know a man who worked in Leith Docks who shipped on the Murmansk run - he was 15 when he started in 1942 and somehow survived to tell the tale, and it wasn't a pretty one.

I believe that the men's wages - such as they were - were stopped from the moment the ship was torpedoed. No pensions for their families, either.

No problems mate. Re the bit in bold: the food was bloody brilliant:greengrin. You are correct on the other points though, the most disgusting in my opinion being the stopping of wages as soon as they were sunk. Not a clue how it worked in the "real" forces but this is something I have always found shocking. They actually had to issue badges to seamen as well to prove they were not "conchies" (not a word I would use by the way!!!) Having been on vessels carrying 25,000 tonnes of aviation fuel or 250,000 tonnes of crude in war zones, I can tell you it is not something to dwell on. I was even on a ship carrying tanks and ammunition to Jordan back in '73 and sat on the poop deck, stoned out of our tiny little tonks watching the bombs going over wondering what kind of bang it would make if one hit us. Good old days. At least the skipper got a nice gold Rolex from King Hussein for docking the ship.:agree:

[--------]

No problems mate. Re the bit in bold: the food was bloody brilliant:greengrin. You are correct on the other points though, the most disgusting in my opinion being the stopping of wages as soon as they were sunk. Not a clue how it worked in the "real" forces but this is something I have always found shocking. They actually had to issue badges to seamen as well to prove they were not "conchies" (not a word I would use by the way!!!) Having been on vessels carrying 25,000 tonnes of aviation fuel or 250,000 tonnes of crude in war zones, I can tell you it is not something to dwell on. I was even on a ship carrying tanks and ammunition to Jordan back in '73 and sat on the poop deck, stoned out of our tiny little tonks watching the bombs going over wondering what kind of bang it would make if one hit us. Good old days. At least the skipper got a nice gold Rolex from King Hussein for docking the ship.:agree:

Not during the War it wasn't, at least according to my mate in the docks.

In relation to the 'real forces' - I also knew a jobbing gardener who worked out around Buckstone on the southern fringe of the city. He never slept indoors, even in the worst of weather. At best he would sleep in a garden shed with the door open. I asked him a few times why, but he wouldn't say, until one evening for some reason he spilled the beans.

He had been a stoker on HMS Barham in late 1941 when she was torpedoed in the Eastern Med.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss)You'll understand that not many stokers got out of her - she blew up 8 minutes after the torpedoes struck. MY mate was picked up by one of the destroyers and taken back to Alexandria, where he was given two weeks survivor's leave. This he spent mostly out of his skull with hard drink. (Personally, I'd have done the same.)

At the end of the fortnight, he reported back for duty, and was posted to HMS Valiant, Barham's sister ship, to the identical stokehold he had not long before clawed his way out of. He couldn't stand it, went AWOL, and ended up in the Forces prison at Alex (you've seen "The Hill"?) after he resisted the guys sent to arrest him. THAT experience nearly killed him.

He suffered a major breakdown; the only way he could kill the nightmares was getting blotto. Every time he did, he ended up in the glasshouse.

He was in his 60s when I knew him, a really fine man tormented by his wartime experiences. He told me he could still see the faces of the men who didn't get out - the ones he'd fought his way past up the ladders to the open air.

He and the other man I mentioned were two of the finest, bravest men I've ever met - real men who gave so much for their country and received so very, very little in return. They're gone, now, and I hope with all my heart they've found peace. They deserve it.

The RN paid my stoker mate right up the moment he went AWOL. Then they put the boot in.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Not during the War it wasn't, at least according to my mate in the docks.

In relation to the 'real forces' - I also knew a jobbing gardener who worked out around Buckstone on the southern fringe of the city. He never slept indoors, even in the worst of weather. At best he would sleep in a garden shed with the door open. I asked him a few times why, but he wouldn't say, until one evening for some reason he spilled the beans.

He had been a stoker on HMS Barham in late 1941 when she was torpedoed in the Eastern Med.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss)You'll understand that not many stokers got out of her - she blew up 8 minutes after the torpedoes struck. MY mate was picked up by one of the destroyers and taken back to Alexandria, where he was given two weeks survivor's leave. This he spent mostly out of his skull with hard drink. (Personally, I'd have done the same.)

At the end of the fortnight, he reported back for duty, and was posted to HMS Valiant, Barham's sister ship, to the identical stokehold he had not long before clawed his way out of. He couldn't stand it, went AWOL, and ended up in the Forces prison at Alex (you've seen "The Hill"?) after he resisted the guys sent to arrest him. THAT experience nearly killed him.

He suffered a major breakdown; the only way he could kill the nightmares was getting blotto. Every time he did, he ended up in the glasshouse.

He was in his 60s when I knew him, a really fine man tormented by his wartime experiences. He told me he could still see the faces of the men who didn't get out - the ones he'd fought his way past up the ladders to the open air.

He and the other man I mentioned were two of the finest, bravest men I've ever met - real men who gave so much for their country and received so very, very little in return. They're gone, now, and I hope with all my heart they've found peace. They deserve it.

The RN paid my stoker mate right up the moment he went AWOL. Then they put the boot in.

I meant from when I was cooking, that was a wee bit after the war:greengrin, but of course you are correct. Weevil flour and bisuits, yeuck. Can fully sympathise with your mates Doddie. Obviously I never worked down an engine room (good Lord, the very thought of me ever dirtying my hands!!!!!) but I can imagine. strange how things change though. The Ginger one above will tell you most exocets actually hit the galleys during the Falklands conflict because of the heat generated. Anyway, 28 years was enough, all behind me now and living peacefully and safely in the middle of the Niger Delta:greengrin I must be a bloody idiot.

[Hibs Class]

Related story here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-14904977

[RyeSloan]

Not during the War it wasn't, at least according to my mate in the docks.

In relation to the 'real forces' - I also knew a jobbing gardener who worked out around Buckstone on the southern fringe of the city. He never slept indoors, even in the worst of weather. At best he would sleep in a garden shed with the door open. I asked him a few times why, but he wouldn't say, until one evening for some reason he spilled the beans.

He had been a stoker on HMS Barham in late 1941 when she was torpedoed in the Eastern Med.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss)You'll understand that not many stokers got out of her - she blew up 8 minutes after the torpedoes struck. MY mate was picked up by one of the destroyers and taken back to Alexandria, where he was given two weeks survivor's leave. This he spent mostly out of his skull with hard drink. (Personally, I'd have done the same.)

At the end of the fortnight, he reported back for duty, and was posted to HMS Valiant, Barham's sister ship, to the identical stokehold he had not long before clawed his way out of. He couldn't stand it, went AWOL, and ended up in the Forces prison at Alex (you've seen "The Hill"?) after he resisted the guys sent to arrest him. THAT experience nearly killed him.

He suffered a major breakdown; the only way he could kill the nightmares was getting blotto. Every time he did, he ended up in the glasshouse.

He was in his 60s when I knew him, a really fine man tormented by his wartime experiences. He told me he could still see the faces of the men who didn't get out - the ones he'd fought his way past up the ladders to the open air.

He and the other man I mentioned were two of the finest, bravest men I've ever met - real men who gave so much for their country and received so very, very little in return. They're gone, now, and I hope with all my heart they've found peace. They deserve it.

The RN paid my stoker mate right up the moment he went AWOL. Then they put the boot in.

Wow some story....I could almost feel the emotion just reading it. :not worth

To think that they tried to put him in the sister ship in the same place he had just had to fight for his life in just two weeks ago beggars belief. To then jail him because of the trauma is unbelievable. I know a lot is said about how poor the forces after care is currently but this puts a lot into perspective.

Its almost not possible to fully understand the sacrafices men like this made....true heroes so often so poorly treated by the nation they gave their sanity for.

[ginger_rice]

I meant from when I was cooking, that was a wee bit after the war:greengrin, but of course you are correct. Weevil flour and bisuits, yeuck. Can fully sympathise with your mates Doddie. Obviously I never worked down an engine room (good Lord, the very thought of me ever dirtying my hands!!!!!) but I can imagine. strange how things change though. The Ginger one above will tell you most exocets actually hit the galleys during the Falklands conflict because of the heat generated. Anyway, 28 years was enough, all behind me now and living peacefully and safely in the middle of the Niger Delta:greengrin I must be a bloody idiot.

Well the galley in my ship certainly wasn't a safe place to be under fire, I think only 3 of our chefs survived. In total the losses of catering staff during the Falkland appears to be extreme, however that could be owing to the fact that the they are posted throughout the ship, some in damage control parties, some on small arms, and some in first aid parties, law of averages suggests that if any section hets hit here will be a cook in that section. In Ardent the chefs were unlucky most had been out of the galley all day but with dusk approaching it wad decided that they should go and prepare a hot meal so the we could all eat after dark, 10 minutes later the Argies struck!

Can empathise with the stoker off the Barham, the boiler room would not be an easy place to escape from, hard enough to get out from 2 decks down I'll tell you!

[sansiro86]

There was one done in Camelon in February - not sure if that's what you might have in mind?

http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/about_council/news/article.aspx?pid=1646


There's also one in Leith which was unveiled late last year. http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_buildings_g/0_buildings_-_merchant_navy_memorial_leith_073376.htm

My grandfather worked for salvesens before becoming a pilot in the Forth. He was one of the lucky ones who survived the second world war. He didn't talk a lot about his war time experiences. What he did tell me sounded pretty horrific though.

I'm doing my cadetship at the moment with a british company. I sail on ships registered in the Bahamas, Liberia and Gibraltar and very seldom do I sail with other British crew.

[Lucius Apuleius]

There's also one in Leith which was unveiled late last year. http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/0_buildings_g/0_buildings_-_merchant_navy_memorial_leith_073376.htm

My grandfather worked for salvesens before becoming a pilot in the Forth. He was one of the lucky ones who survived the second world war. He didn't talk a lot about his war time experiences. What he did tell me sounded pretty horrific though.

I'm doing my cadetship at the moment with a british company. I sail on ships registered in the Bahamas, Liberia and Gibraltar and very seldom do I sail with other British crew.

Which company mate?

Have a wee look at this website if you want stories from the past and what going to sea was really like. :wink:

http://www.merchant-navy.net/forum/

[stu in nottingham]

I am glad to see this belated tribute to the brave men and women of the Merchant Navy. My father was a stoker in the Merchants before, during and after the second world war for many years. I heard a few hair-raising tales from him but what came across very strongly was how defenceless those men must have felt. Dad would joke that whilst they were under attack by deadly German U-Boats their main defence was a few depth charges and a couple of pistols! I know he was sunk, and pulled out of the water alive but no further details as he wouldn't talk about that much. What was very noticeable about him as an older man to me was that after defying death in such a way, little or nothing in life held any fear for him, he'd already stared his own mortality hard in the face in those freezing cold waters.

There were lighter moments too. One I recall was his story of waking up in his hammock one morning to find a rat sitting on his chest staring at him! I guess it wouldn't be difficult to imagine a vermin problem with the foodstuffs the ships were carrying.

I still have my father's Merchant Navy tie from those days. Also have a picture of him in the war in his 'whites'. I treasure them both and know that my dad was one of the many brave and unsung heroes who kept our country fed in those dark and desperate days.

Respect to the men and women of the Merchant navy.

[s.a.m]

Thanks for posting this, L.A.. - very interesting and moving. A group of people whose contribution has clearly been neglected by history. I'm ashamed to say I know almost nothing about this, despite having a Great-Grandfather who was torpedoed and drowned during WW1. I obviously need to find out more.

[Future17]

Some info on the discovery and forthcoming salvage of a Merchant Navy vessel torpedoed during WW2. The cargo is thought to contain £150m worth of silver:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15061868