PDA

View Full Version : 38 games, 22 defeats. Impossible to defend that record. ENDOF.



Hibs On Tour
29-08-2011, 03:26 AM
To avoid all the 'selective statistics' crowd, here's the only one that matters - 38 games in charge, 22 defeats.

Inherited a ***** squad? - so have other managers. Time to make an impact? Been here 10 months now including 2 transfer windows [given that they've already said that business is finished for this one]. If it wasn't for an injury time goal we would be bottom of the table and 3 points adrift already. The game midweek tired our players? Well then, use different players from the squad - no rocket science is it? If you wanted a settled team for the derby without them being tired, why play them midweek? Can't have it both ways. Can't say the board haven't backed him either - backed him on transfers and backed him when he blatantly wanted away but the 'suitors' wouldn't stump up the cash.

Well Mr Petrie, I trust that £50-100k or whatever short of your valuation is sufficient 'justification' for the shambles that is unfolding because its looking at this stage like its going to cost us a lot more than that in terms of less fans through the gates, lower league position and not a chance of a cup run on this evidence. Congratulations.

Just very, very pissed off...

Prawn Sandwich
29-08-2011, 06:03 AM
Bill Leckie in the Sun says today "Under Colin Calderwood Hibs are a shambles."

Read on http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/3780437/Hearts-2brHibernian-0br.html

connerg
29-08-2011, 01:34 PM
38 games in charge, well that's a season, so that would give us 34 points. Take away the Berwick Rangers win because that was the cup, we would have 31 points. Dycing with death there, ie relegation.

How do other teams with new managers and new players seem to bed in quicker than they do at Hibs? :confused:

Sir David Gray
29-08-2011, 05:40 PM
38 games in charge, well that's a season, so that would give us 34 points. Take away the Berwick Rangers win because that was the cup, we would have 31 points. Dycing with death there, ie relegation.

How do other teams with new managers and new players seem to bed in quicker than they do at Hibs? :confused:

If you're not counting cup games then he's been in charge for 35 league matches because he was also in charge for the two Scottish Cup games against Ayr.

P-35
W-9
D-5
L-21

32 league points in a period that is 3 games short of a full league season would probably see us relegated if we were talking about this run being from August-May.

KiddA
29-08-2011, 06:25 PM
38 games in charge, well that's a season, so that would give us 34 points. Take away the Berwick Rangers win because that was the cup, we would have 31 points. Dycing with death there, ie relegation.

How do other teams with new managers and new players seem to bed in quicker than they do at Hibs? :confused:

Look at Stuart Mccall for example he has probably less resources than CC does and they are doing exceptionally well.

HibsMax
29-08-2011, 06:40 PM
How do other teams with new managers and new players seem to bed in quicker than they do at Hibs? :confused:

That's a great question. Whenever I have used that as a reason it's always been at the back of my mind that other teams manage so why can't Hibs. I use it as an excuse not because it's definitely the reason but because I'm looking for a reason and it would scare the crap out of me if this is the best we can expect from our current collection of players.

The NFL is arguably a more complicated game than "soccer" (IMO) because of all the schemes they play on defence, offence and special teams. The coach or QB makes a call and EVERYONE on the team has to know what they are doing. If one player screws up, it's a busted play. It could be the offensive line doesn't protect the QB and he's sacked or hurried. The receiver could run the wrong route. There are many things that could wrong. Now if a player can join a new team and learn the playbook well enough to not blow plays, how can't "soccer" players do the same thing? I know that "soccer" and NFL are different - "soccer" is a more fluid game with practically unlimited possibilities. NFL is more structured than that but unplanned things can and do happen. So while I say that the players need time to gel, I still think that there is a lot more they could be doing better. I don't know whose fault that is though. Either they are being poorly coached or they don't learn quickly enough. But I'm still giving them more time because I have to. I've given Hibs time up until now, I'm not going to lose my bottle at this stage. If we're still in the doldrums at Christmas, I will be singing a different tune because everyone has their limit.

blackpoolhibs
29-08-2011, 06:42 PM
Look at Stuart Mccall for example he has probably less resources than CC does and they are doing exceptionally well.

I think we have a support who'd prefer us to wait for any success we should get, there's nothing like having a little patience as little Gary Barlow once said.

Motherwell must be devastated they dont have to wait for their team to gel, imagine having a manager managing someone elses players, and getting them results. What the hell does M'Call think he's playing at?

skipster7
29-08-2011, 07:30 PM
Bill Leckie in the Sun says today "Under Colin Calderwood Hibs are a shambles."


Read on http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/3780437/Hearts-2brHibernian-0br.html
he also said in another piece about harry potter "hes got rid of the trouble makers and bad influences from the squad !" cant stand leckie he changes like the wind.what he should have said is guys with actual talent like faddy and fletch are surplus to potter for guys like mikail ? smith despite drooling over faddy in his column for years.

Dashing Bob S
29-08-2011, 08:32 PM
I think we have a support who'd prefer us to wait for any success we should get, there's nothing like having a little patience as little Gary Barlow once said.

Motherwell must be devastated they dont have to wait for their team to gel, imagine having a manager managing someone elses players, and getting them results. What the hell does M'Call think he's playing at?

I think it shows our superiority to Motherwell fans that we're prepared to suffer constant defeats from mediocre teams while playing dull hoofball with no real sign of any game plan for improvement.

Give me that anytime before the fool's paradise of playing decent football and winning games against poor teams in one of Europe's worst leagues.

It will come back to haunt them, this points on the board nonsense - mark my words.

--------
31-08-2011, 09:07 AM
I think we have a support who'd prefer us to wait for any success we should get, there's nothing like having a little patience as little Gary Barlow once said.

Motherwell must be devastated they dont have to wait for their team to gel, imagine having a manager managing someone elses players, and getting them results. What the hell does M'Call think he's playing at?


I was once told, bh, that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

It's also sometimes the only way to adequately express one's feelings. I agree with you 100%. :wink:


Petrie got lucky - VERY lucky - when he signed Mowbray. Since then, two questions have become more and more pressing - how much does Petrie interfere in what would usually be considered the team manager's domain? And how well does he (and the owner and board as well, IMO) back the managers they appoint - financially and morally? Does the Hibs manager have a reasonable transfer budget? And (more important, I think) can he be sure he has the unequivocal backing of RP and the board in regard to the way he does his job? And if he does, are the players convinced that he does?


IMO we have the resources to be doing a lot better than we are.

I do NOT like it when players start giving quotes to the press about what a great guy the boss is, and how much they're enjoying working under him, as Ian Murray and others at ER have done recently. THAT smells of *****.

I do NOT like it when the owner really doesn't seem to care about what's going on at the club - the revolving door to the manager's office, the massive turnover in players, the team's total inability to convince the fans (who, by the way, DO know something about the game - you can't help learning about the dark side of football watching Hibs for 45 years or so) that they (the players) really care about winning games for the fans who pay their wages.

I do NOT like it when one person at the club - guess who? - seems to be Teflon-coated and untouchable regardless of what he decides or how his decisions turn out.

I'm thinking of taking a drive over to Fir Park next home game - see if I can work out what's going wrong there. :greengrin


In the meantime, could we perhaps get rid of THIS >>>>> :cgwa?

At least until it begins to mean something?

hibs0666
31-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Look at Stuart Mccall for example he has probably less resources than CC does and they are doing exceptionally well.

Craig Brown's done brilliantly at Aberdeen too.

Phil MaGlass
31-08-2011, 09:17 AM
Bill Leckie in the Sun says today "Under Colin Calderwood Hibs are a shambles."

Read on http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/3780437/Hearts-2brHibernian-0br.html

surprised Booth doesnt get it tight in that report.

Speedway
31-08-2011, 09:43 AM
I think we have a support who'd prefer us to wait for any success we should get, there's nothing like having a little patience as little Gary Barlow once said.

Motherwell must be devastated they dont have to wait for their team to gel, imagine having a manager managing someone elses players, and getting them results. What the hell does M'Call think he's playing at?


surprised Booth doesnt get it tight in that report.

He does. He gets it for not tracking Hammil for the cross for the opening goal.

Stevie Reid
31-08-2011, 09:48 AM
Whilst their blind faith in Calderwood is admirable to a point (I don't mean that in an insulting way, it can be nothing other than blind faith due to the fact that we have made NO progress under him), one of the most infuriating things to read on this board is that people are some how being selective in their use of statistics to castigate CC - 38 games is his ENTIRE record, there's nothing selective about it. In fact, the only selective use of statistics was used by Petrie in a statement that looks more stupid with every passing game.

As for claiming that last season is finished and things are reset, such allowances were made for no other manager, and certainly not our last, who was pilloried for our terrible home record stretching back into the previous season (whilst ignoring the fact that we took 7 points from 9 from away league games against top 6 opposition over the end of one season/start of the other).

But let's ignore being fair to other managers for a minute - most importantly, how the **** is any supporter who went to ER last season supposed to just forget how awful we were? The shocking performances and defeats towards the end of last season were defended by many as being experimental and in the name of progress - yet now we've lost 4 out of 5 league games, we're told just to forget last season, the defeats this season are in the name of progress. So I will ask - WHERE have we progressed? And please don't tell me we have made good signings, this seems to have been the case with everyone except Mixu, yet the reality turned out somewhat differently. Good players poorly managed was the belief of many (myself included) under Mixu and Yogi, which was eventually revised to crap players poorly managed. Where are we now? New players poorly managed is the only thing I can say, time will tell if they are good or not, though perhaps not if CC cannot utilise them properly.

If Mowbray, JC, Mixu or Yogi had that record after their first 38 games, they would have been emptied - the belief now seems to be that we should stick with CC for longer, purely because we haven't done it with our previous 3 managers. Unfortunately they are applying the policy to someone who is clearly the wrong man, there is nothing in our make up that is better than under our previous managers, we are worse in EVERY department. Why on earth people will think we will just suddenly improve the longer he is here is beyond me - such belief may turn out to be merited if we can undergo what will have to be an unbelievably dramatic transformation over the next month. I just can't see any way that it will happen.

The comparisons to Jim Duffy's disastrous reign in terms of defeats and the board being willing to stick by him are terrifying, quite frankly - the only difference is that the appointment of McLeish saw enough improvement for the fans to believe that we would get back into the SPL quickly, we bought into the positive effect that he had an were willing to support Hibs in great numbers through the tough times that followed our relegation. There will be no such desire this time, I feel - many will be driven away never to come back. This is a pivotal time in our club's history, we can only hope that the board's faith is rewarded, despite all the evidence - but a poor performance and defeat against Aberdeen will cause furious scenes at ER IMO.

Andy74
31-08-2011, 09:53 AM
Whilst their blind faith in Calderwood is admirable to a point (I don't mean that in an insulting way, it can be nothing other than blind faith due to the fact that we have made NO progress under him), one of the most infuriating things to read on this board is that people are some how being selective in their use of statistics to castigate CC - 38 games is his ENTIRE record, there's nothing selective about it. As for claiming that last season is finished and things are reset, such allowances were made for no other manager, and certainly not our last, who was pilloried for our terrible home record stretching back into the previous season (whilst ignoring the fact that we took 7 points from 9 from away league games against top 6 opposition over the end of one season/start of the other).

But let's ignore being fair to other managers for a minute - most importantly, how the **** is any supporter who went to ER last season supposed to just forget how awful we were? The shocking performances and defeats towards the end of last season were defended by many as being experimental and in the name of progress - yet now we've lost 4 out of 5 league games, we're told just to forget last season, the defeats this season are in the name of progress. So I will ask - WHERE have we progressed? And please don't tell me we have made good signings, this seems to have been the case with everyone except Mixu, yet the reality turned out somewhat differently. Good players poorly managed was the belief of many (myself included) under Mixu and Yogi, which was eventually revised to crap players poorly managed. Where are we now? New players poorly managed is the only thing I can say, time will tell if they are good or not, though perhaps not if CC cannot utilise them properly.

If Mowbray, JC, Mixu or Yogi had that record after their first 38 games, they would have been emptied - the belief now seems to be that we should stick with CC for longer, purely because we haven't done it with our previous 3 managers. Unfortunately they are applying the policy to someone who is clearly the wrong man, there is nothing in our make up that is better than under our previous managers, we are worse in EVERY department. Why on earth people will think we will just suddenly improve the longer he is here is beyond me - such belief may turn out to be merited if we can undergo what will have to be an unbelievably dramatic transformation over the next month. I just can't see any way that it will happen.

The comparisons to Jim Duffy's disastrous reign in terms of defeats and the board being willing to stick by him are terrifying, quite frankly - the only difference is that the appointment of McLeish saw enough improvement for the fans to believe that we would get back into the SPL quickly, we bought into the positive effect that he had an were willing to support Hibs in great numbers through the tough times that followed our relegation. There will be no such desire this time, I feel - many will be driven away never to come back. This is a pivotal time in our club's history, we can only hope that the board's faith is rewarded, despite all the evidence - but a poor performance and defeat against Aberdeen will cause furious scenes at ER IMO.

Yep, that sums it up nicely. I too would like to know why most seem to have picked this guy as the one they are prepared to give time to. I don't think we can say his signings have been better as they aren't wining games.

Put it this way i'd rather we were playing the next game with this team:

Stack

Wotherspoon
Bamba
Hogg
Murray

Zemmama
Miller
McBride
Riordan

Stokes
Nish

--------
31-08-2011, 10:09 AM
Whilst their blind faith in Calderwood is admirable to a point (I don't mean that in an insulting way, it can be nothing other than blind faith due to the fact that we have made NO progress under him), one of the most infuriating things to read on this board is that people are some how being selective in their use of statistics to castigate CC - 38 games is his ENTIRE record, there's nothing selective about it. In fact, the only selective use of statistics was used by Petrie in a statement that looks more stupid with every passing game.

As for claiming that last season is finished and things are reset, such allowances were made for no other manager, and certainly not our last, who was pilloried for our terrible home record stretching back into the previous season (whilst ignoring the fact that we took 7 points from 9 from away league games against top 6 opposition over the end of one season/start of the other).

But let's ignore being fair to other managers for a minute - most importantly, how the **** is any supporter who went to ER last season supposed to just forget how awful we were? The shocking performances and defeats towards the end of last season were defended by many as being experimental and in the name of progress - yet now we've lost 4 out of 5 league games, we're told just to forget last season, the defeats this season are in the name of progress. So I will ask - WHERE have we progressed? And please don't tell me we have made good signings, this seems to have been the case with everyone except Mixu, yet the reality turned out somewhat differently. Good players poorly managed was the belief of many (myself included) under Mixu and Yogi, which was eventually revised to crap players poorly managed. Where are we now? New players poorly managed is the only thing I can say, time will tell if they are good or not, though perhaps not if CC cannot utilise them properly.

If Mowbray, JC, Mixu or Yogi had that record after their first 38 games, they would have been emptied - the belief now seems to be that we should stick with CC for longer, purely because we haven't done it with our previous 3 managers. Unfortunately they are applying the policy to someone who is clearly the wrong man, there is nothing in our make up that is better than under our previous managers, we are worse in EVERY department. Why on earth people will think we will just suddenly improve the longer he is here is beyond me - such belief may turn out to be merited if we can undergo what will have to be an unbelievably dramatic transformation over the next month. I just can't see any way that it will happen.

The comparisons to Jim Duffy's disastrous reign in terms of defeats and the board being willing to stick by him are terrifying, quite frankly - the only difference is that the appointment of McLeish saw enough improvement for the fans to believe that we would get back into the SPL quickly, we bought into the positive effect that he had an were willing to support Hibs in great numbers through the tough times that followed our relegation. There will be no such desire this time, I feel - many will be driven away never to come back. This is a pivotal time in our club's history, we can only hope that the board's faith is rewarded, despite all the evidence - but a poor performance and defeat against Aberdeen will cause furious scenes at ER IMO.


First-class post.

And the fury should be aimed at more people than just Calderwood.

Stevie Reid
31-08-2011, 10:18 AM
First-class post.

And the fury should be aimed at more people than just Calderwood.

Sadly, I now agree - this despite me being a big supporter of the work the board have done over the years. The decision to stick by Calderwood (never mind appointing him in the first place) may well be Petrie's legacy, not any of the really good work he has overseen.

weonlywon6-2
31-08-2011, 10:23 AM
38 games in charge, well that's a season, so that would give us 34 points. Take away the Berwick Rangers win because that was the cup, we would have 31 points. Dycing with death there, ie relegation.

How do other teams with new managers and new players seem to bed in quicker than they do at Hibs? :confused:


this is what i have been saying all along

i just think hes crap,end off!

bawheid
31-08-2011, 10:31 AM
Sadly, I now agree - this despite me being a big supporter of the work the board have done over the years. The decision to stick by Calderwood (never mind appointing him in the first place) may well be Petrie's legacy, not any of the really good work he has overseen.

Good posts on this thread SR, and you quite rightly bemoan the lack of progress under Calderwood since he took over.

However, we have not made any progress since March 2007 no matter who the manager or players have been. This malaise started with the player revolt and has continued since then. Who was to blame for that has been debated often enough, but no matter, it was a cataclysmic event in our recent timeline. It switched the control at the club from the managers to the players, and we've never recovered.

Somebody, anybody, needs to be given some time to try and sort it out. I would have given Mixu the time. I would have given Hughes the time. I would definitely give someone with the track record (as player and manager) of Colin Calderwood the time.

His record is dreadful so far, granted. There's no getting away from it. He needs a string of wins throughout September and October. I really hope he gets that time because starting AGAIN with another manager (who?) doesn't bear thinking about.

Stevie Reid
31-08-2011, 11:02 AM
Good posts on this thread SR, and you quite rightly bemoan the lack of progress under Calderwood since he took over.

However, we have not made any progress since March 2007 no matter who the manager or players have been. This malaise started with the player revolt and has continued since then. Who was to blame for that has been debated often enough, but no matter, it was a cataclysmic event in our recent timeline. It switched the control at the club from the managers to the players, and we've never recovered.

Somebody, anybody, needs to be given some time to try and sort it out. I would have given Mixu the time. I would have given Hughes the time. I would definitely give someone with the track record (as player and manager) of Colin Calderwood the time.

His record is dreadful so far, granted. There's no getting away from it. He needs a string of wins throughout September and October. I really hope he gets that time because starting AGAIN with another manager (who?) doesn't bear thinking about.

I did say on another thread recently that I think the JC revolt is probably the one event that has defined the last four years at ER, fully agree there.

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 11:20 AM
Good posts on this thread SR, and you quite rightly bemoan the lack of progress under Calderwood since he took over.

However, we have not made any progress since March 2007 no matter who the manager or players have been. This malaise started with the player revolt and has continued since then. Who was to blame for that has been debated often enough, but no matter, it was a cataclysmic event in our recent timeline. It switched the control at the club from the managers to the players, and we've never recovered.

Somebody, anybody, needs to be given some time to try and sort it out. I would have given Mixu the time. I would have given Hughes the time. I would definitely give someone with the track record (as player and manager) of Colin Calderwood the time.

His record is dreadful so far, granted. There's no getting away from it. He needs a string of wins throughout September and October. I really hope he gets that time because starting AGAIN with another manager (who?) doesn't bear thinking about.

:agree: damned if we do, damned if we don't...

No-one on this thread has mentioned Killie - lost their best players to Hearts - far less resources than us we're told, but don't appear to have missed a beat, or are certainly gelling much more quickly. St Mirren again have done well, quickly and they've got TC as #2 FFS!

We seem to have hired - on the whole - more journeymen, some of whom have questionable fitness records or appetite for the game.

TrickyNicky
31-08-2011, 11:36 AM
I suppose if Calderwood goes, we won't get any money for him, he might even get a little payout and move back down south and take up an assistants job.

Pyramid scheme folk ken whit's gaun oan likes !!:wink:

blackpoolhibs
31-08-2011, 11:38 AM
Yep, that sums it up nicely. I too would like to know why most seem to have picked this guy as the one they are prepared to give time to. I don't think we can say his signings have been better as they aren't wining games.

Put it this way i'd rather we were playing the next game with this team:

Stack

Wotherspoon
Bamba
Hogg
Murray

Zemmama
Miller
McBride
Riordan

Stokes
Nish

100% spot on, Calderwoods first 11, whatever he deemed fit enough or good enough, and we know that could be different. Whatever 11 he picks are nowhere near as good as that team. And some folk seem to think we have progressed? Where, just where?

And Hughes side has Nish and Murray in it.

Mikey
31-08-2011, 11:38 AM
Pyramid scheme folk ken whit's gaun oan likes !!:wink:

:greengrin

IWasThere2016
31-08-2011, 11:42 AM
Put it this way i'd rather we were playing the next game with this team:

Stack

Wotherspoon
Bamba
Hogg
Murray

Zemmama
Miller
McBride
Riordan

Stokes
Nish

I'd rather have Stack; Whittaker, Bamba, Jones, Murphy; Brown, Thomson; Riordan; O'Connor, Stokes, Fletcher in a "all for goals and glory" 4-2-4 :greengrin

However, we "needed" a new stand for no reason, and a training facility we havent put to good use! :boo hoo:

Franck is God
31-08-2011, 12:02 PM
I'm not going to defend his record because as pointed out it is not good.

However what I will say is that he was employed by Hibs to do a job that was always likely to take at least 18 months to two years.

His first job was to ensure we had a squad capable of steering well clear of relegation which he did.

His second job was the biggest overhaul of the playing squad that I'm sure any of us have ever seen at ER which he did.

His third job was to build a squad/team to get into the top six this season and challenge for the euro places, the final players to complete the squad arrived last Friday & Saturday, we won't know the answer to that until next May.

By the time our next home game comes along he will have pretty much every player fully fit and available to him, its now time for him to put the side on the pitch that will bring us some relative success this season but he has to be given the chance to do it.

For me the time to judge is after we've played everyone home and away, if we are still struggling at the wrong end of the table then fair enough it might be time to look elsewhere but until then I see no need to make any conclusions on how our season might turn out.

Albion Hibs
31-08-2011, 12:27 PM
Yep, that sums it up nicely. I too would like to know why most seem to have picked this guy as the one they are prepared to give time to. I don't think we can say his signings have been better as they aren't wining games.

Put it this way i'd rather we were playing the next game with this team:

Stack

Wotherspoon
Bamba
Hogg
Murray

Zemmama
Miller
McBride
Riordan

Stokes
Nish

I am sure that CC would probably have liked the players in bold to, but there were sold, something he cant do anything about, and he wont have even met Stokes as he was long go to Celtic by the time CC arrived.

The players from the above that are therefore no longer there would be;

Miller
McBride
Riordan
Nish
Hogg

Nish and Hogg were hounded out by the fans as much as anything else, McBride was described by some to have found his level when he went to Raith, plenty even turned on Riordan for what he was giving to the team. Out of the above Miller is the only one that would walk into the current team IMO.

The record is not good, but out of interest how many games where lost before the 1st transfer window CC had? and then how many prior to the end of that window when we was able to bring in some players to help avoid the much dicussed relegation last season?

In any event it is getting back into the merits of assessing the current manager against the old managers team, the current points for this season against a combination of last. Simple for me, this season has not started the best, mostly to do with the fact that only three players from your preferred starting 11 are still at the club, there is no way you can debate that having to change so much has had an effect. Some of our new players came in working off injury, others took injury during there first 45 mins of football, and some beyond that are just coming back or arrived at the club on Friday past.

I am not judging CC on last season, doing that is for one purpose and one purpose only. Almost everyone on here wanted an entire new team - well we got it. Why not judge the man on the team he has pulled together that the fans so desperatly wanted?

patlowe
31-08-2011, 12:31 PM
However, we have not made any progress since March 2007 no matter who the manager or players have been

Dead right, we've been absolutely diabolical for a LONG time. Terrible. Brutal. It's not like the managers over the past few years haven't been given money to spend, they've had more than Mowbray and more than the majority of SPL managers for that matter. Something is seriously wrong at the club. When you consider that we've increased the player budget, finished off the stadium and built a training ground in this period, we should be riding the crest of a wave and leaving the other non-OF clubs in our wake. But no, we are an absolute shambles. I've got very little faith in Colin Calderwood but there's nothing to suggest that changing the manager will help alleviate the issues we seem to have at our club.

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 12:43 PM
I am sure that CC would probably have liked the players in bold to, but there were sold, something he cant do anything about, and he wont have even met Stokes as he was long go to Celtic by the time CC arrived.

The players from the above that are therefore no longer there would be;

Miller
McBride
Riordan
Nish
Hogg

Nish and Hogg were hounded out by the fans as much as anything else, McBride was described by some to have found his level when he went to Raith, plenty even turned on Riordan for what he was giving to the team. Out of the above Miller is the only one that would walk into the current team IMO.

The record is not good, but out of interest how many games where lost before the 1st transfer window CC had? and then how many prior to the end of that window when we was able to bring in some players to help avoid the much dicussed relegation last season?

In any event it is getting back into the merits of assessing the current manager against the old managers team, the current points for this season against a combination of last. Simple for me, this season has not started the best, mostly to do with the fact that only three players from your preferred starting 11 are still at the club, there is no way you can debate that having to change so much has had an effect. Some of our new players came in working off injury, others took injury during there first 45 mins of football, and some beyond that are just coming back or arrived at the club on Friday past.

I am not judging CC on last season, doing that is for one purpose and one purpose only. Almost everyone on here wanted an entire new team - well we got it. Why not judge the man on the team he has pulled together that the fans so desperatly wanted?

Indeed. Question is - and it's a big one - how long can this team go on getting beat and getting beat easy, with no improvement in performance either by individuals or the team as a whole?

Speedway
31-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Indeed. Question is - and it's a big one - how long can this team go on getting beat and getting beat easy, with no improvement in performance either by individuals or the team as a whole?

All season.

marinello59
31-08-2011, 12:57 PM
100% spot on, Calderwoods first 11, whatever he deemed fit enough or good enough, and we know that could be different. Whatever 11 he picks are nowhere near as good as that team. And some folk seem to think we have progressed? Where, just where?

And Hughes side has Nish and Murray in it.

We simply haven't. A losing streak at the end of last season continued in to this one. Calderwoods team is just as bad as the one Hughes had. If this was in any way a strong league then the argument that his players need time to settle in might just hold water. We bemoan the fact that we can't compete financially against the Old Firm then make excuses when we have a manager who can't oversee a complete drubbing at Killie.

Nailrod
31-08-2011, 12:58 PM
His third job was to build a squad/team to get into the top six this season and challenge for the euro places, the final players to complete the squad arrived last Friday & Saturday, we won't know the answer to that until next May. For some indefinable reason I have a strong feeling that we're actually going to know the answer to that one quite a long time before May.

Speedway
31-08-2011, 12:58 PM
We simply haven't. A losing streak at the end of last season continued in to this one. Calderwoods team is just as bad as the one Hughes had. If this was in any way a strong league then the argument that his players need time to settle in might just hold water. We bemoan the fact that we can't compete financially against the Old Firm then make excuses when we have a manager who can't oversee a complete drubbing at Killie.

So what do you recommend?

marinello59
31-08-2011, 01:03 PM
So what do you recommend?

Personally I am buying a **** load of lucky white heather and rabbits feet. I'll be watching the next few games with fingers crossed and praying to every deity I can think of that it all comes right and Calderwood does prove to be the right man for the job.

Albion Hibs
31-08-2011, 01:23 PM
Indeed. Question is - and it's a big one - how long can this team go on getting beat and getting beat easy, with no improvement in performance either by individuals or the team as a whole?

How long, I dont know, I bought a ticket for the season would I wait till then end I dont know, but I am certainly not looking to empty him now.

I dont think we have been beat easy. An interesting review of things would be looking at, since the begining of this season 1) how many goals we have brought on ourselves from silly mistakes (IMO 1 against Celtic, 2 against Killie, 2 Against St Mirren and 1/2 against hertz) 2) how many points has that cost us IMO none against Celtic as despite playing well for 30 mins I think we would still have lost, Killie was a bad day I dont think it would have made much difference there, St Mirren in my view cost us 3 points and against the hertz maybe a point. All of this would make a significant difference to our current position, but I acknowledge it is if buts and maybes.

The problem is we have cost ourselves these points. As soon as we conceed at the crucial points in the game we have put ourselves under the pressure of having to change things, in doing that opening up at the back, an area which is not playing with a lot of confidence just now.

I believe we have put out a team good enough to win some of these games, individual errors have cost us - I dont blame CC for that.

greenlex
31-08-2011, 01:25 PM
Personally I am buying a **** load of lucky white heather and rabbits feet. I'll be watching the next few games with fingers crossed and praying to every deity I can think of that it all comes right and Calderwood does prove to be the right man for the job. I think we are all doing that. To give him ten months to assemble a squad and then sack him after a handful of games would be absolute nadness.Yes I dont think there are any fans without reservations and I bet there are board members with the same reservations but Calderwood obviously needs and should be afforded time to get on with the job he has shown in the past he is very capable of doing.

Stevie Reid
31-08-2011, 02:36 PM
How long, I dont know, I bought a ticket for the season would I wait till then end I dont know, but I am certainly not looking to empty him now.

I dont think we have been beat easy. An interesting review of things would be looking at, since the begining of this season 1) how many goals we have brought on ourselves from silly mistakes (IMO 1 against Celtic, 2 against Killie, 2 Against St Mirren and 1/2 against hertz) 2) how many points has that cost us IMO none against Celtic as despite playing well for 30 mins I think we would still have lost, Killie was a bad day I dont think it would have made much difference there, St Mirren in my view cost us 3 points and against the hertz maybe a point. All of this would make a significant difference to our current position, but I acknowledge it is if buts and maybes.

The problem is we have cost ourselves these points. As soon as we conceed at the crucial points in the game we have put ourselves under the pressure of having to change things, in doing that opening up at the back, an area which is not playing with a lot of confidence just now.

I believe we have put out a team good enough to win some of these games, individual errors have cost us - I dont blame CC for that.

We have been beaten easy, how much easier can you get than gifting the opposition goals?!

In the early part of last season we had Riordan missing penalties and De Graaf missing open goals - individual errors cost Yogi too (and pretty much every other manager who has ever been sacked).

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 02:42 PM
All season.

And ad infinitum.

Put another way then - how long will they be allowed to go on losing pretty much every game we play before action is taken at the managerial level, or will we just soldier on in Div 1.

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 02:50 PM
How long, I dont know, I bought a ticket for the season would I wait till then end I dont know, but I am certainly not looking to empty him now.

I dont think we have been beat easy. An interesting review of things would be looking at, since the begining of this season 1) how many goals we have brought on ourselves from silly mistakes (IMO 1 against Celtic, 2 against Killie, 2 Against St Mirren and 1/2 against hertz) 2) how many points has that cost us IMO none against Celtic as despite playing well for 30 mins I think we would still have lost, Killie was a bad day I dont think it would have made much difference there, St Mirren in my view cost us 3 points and against the hertz maybe a point. All of this would make a significant difference to our current position, but I acknowledge it is if buts and maybes.

The problem is we have cost ourselves these points. As soon as we conceed at the crucial points in the game we have put ourselves under the pressure of having to change things, in doing that opening up at the back, an area which is not playing with a lot of confidence just now.

I believe we have put out a team good enough to win some of these games, individual errors have cost us - I dont blame CC for that.

Every goal in this league is down to 'individual errors' - or 'silly mistakes' - this used to be Mixu's excuse. But individual errors are overlooked when you're banging them in at the other end. We're not. We don't even create chances. Maybe you could dig the stats out for how many shots on target we've had this season - in fact don't, it's embarrassing. Fact's are silly mistakes lose you games when you're poor around the rest of the park.

I thought the second half against St Mirren was football to make your eyes bleed. CC had 45+ minutes to change things - but we didn't. As for the Hearts game once again never looked like winning, not when you get the level of performance we did from Thornhill and Osbourne.

And if games lasted 30 minutes then yes I'd agree we could have won more. But only if those 30 minutes were when we were playing well.

As for how long - yeah I've got 2 season tickets - and they're for the season; but I'm still interested to understand how no wins, no performances and no progress will be tolerated by the Board. I'd imagine to around AGM time. Then Rod can unveil Michael O'Neill....

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 02:53 PM
I think we are all doing that. To give him ten months to assemble a squad and then sack him after a handful of games would be absolute nadness.Yes I dont think there are any fans without reservations and I bet there are board members with the same reservations but Calderwood obviously needs and should be afforded time to get on with the job he has shown in the past he is very capable of doing.

I don't think we should sack him - it would be utter madness. But I think it's a valid question to ask - well just how long can this be allowed to continue though??

HibsMax
31-08-2011, 02:59 PM
I don't think we should sack him - it would be utter madness. But I think it's a valid question to ask - well just how long can this be allowed to continue though??

How long is a very difficult question to answer in my opinion and I think most people will have different answers. I've been saying til Christmas because that means he will have had about 4 months of playing time with the guys he brought in over the summer. He should be able to get something out of them by then.

The way I try to look at it is like this. Giving him one game is obviously not enough. Giving him 5 years is obviously too long. I think that 99% of posters here would agree with that. Therefor the answer lies somewhere between 1 game and 5 years. Keep moving the upper and lower bounds and you will eventually zero in on a more reasonable number.

I would actually give CC the whole season to see what he can do but I am looking for some significant signs of improvement by Christmas.

Albion Hibs
31-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Every goal in this league is down to 'individual errors' - or 'silly mistakes' - this used to be Mixu's excuse. But individual errors are overlooked when you're banging them in at the other end. We're not. We don't even create chances. Maybe you could dig the stats out for how many shots on target we've had this season - in fact don't, it's embarrassing. Fact's are silly mistakes lose you games when you're poor around the rest of the park.

I thought the second half against St Mirren was football to make your eyes bleed. CC had 45+ minutes to change things - but we didn't. As for the Hearts game once again never looked like winning, not when you get the level of performance we did from Thornhill and Osbourne.

And if games lasted 30 minutes then yes I'd agree we could have won more. But only if those 30 minutes were when we were playing well.

As for how long - yeah I've got 2 season tickets - and they're for the season; but I'm still interested to understand how no wins, no performances and no progress will be tolerated by the Board. I'd imagine to around AGM time. Then Rod can unveil Michael O'Neill....

The bit in bold is ridiculous even for Hibs net.

I gave my view on how long, you are asking most others about there view and providing a comment on that. It would only be polite for me to ask you - how long would you give him?

marinello59
31-08-2011, 03:15 PM
I think we are all doing that. To give him ten months to assemble a squad and then sack him after a handful of games would be absolute nadness.Yes I dont think there are any fans without reservations and I bet there are board members with the same reservations but Calderwood obviously needs and should be afforded time to get on with the job he has shown in the past he is very capable of doing.

The only reason I keep coming up with to retain him is that we can't keep sacking managers. How long should he get though? This run through the fixture list? Or the next one? Fair play to those at the top for sticking by their man, that's what leadership is all about. I can only assume they really do think they have the right man. I hope they are right.

(I love the new word by the way, NADNESS........crazily acting like a baw. :thumbsup:)

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 03:32 PM
The bit in bold is ridiculous even for Hibs net.

I gave my view on how long, you are asking most others about there view and providing a comment on that. It would only be polite for me to ask you - how long would you give him?

We don't concede goals due to individual bits of brilliance, people lashing in 30 yarders, or curling them round walls and into the top corner, beating player after player with Stanley Matthews-esque dribbling. We concede goals because we don't track a runner, or we mis-time a tackle, or we turn our backs, or, or, or.

Take Gary O's goals against St Mirren - or ICT - either will have a point where the opponent makes one of your silly mistakes - that's what creates the chance, and he took it. Hansen used to do the same thing on MOTD - he'd identify one point where a defender did the wrong thing, but that's hindsight and 20:20 vision.

If we cut out defensive mistakes, silly or otherwise, we might have drawn a couple of games nil nil. But as I said - at this level goals are scored by one team making less mistakes. We don't create opportunities, just like Mixu didn't. That's why these silly mistakes become even more critical. Every team makes mistakes. The better ones less, and they also recover from them quicker. Hope this clarifies.

Oh and how long - :dunno: - but it's an interesting one. We do get beaten easily by anyone right now. Celtc never got out of second gear. Killie took us to the cleaners, St Mirren had two or three chances 1st half, scored 2 and then didn't have a shot on target on their goal all of the second half. Don't know how much easier it gets than that. Hertz - again result was never in doubt - not when you have Osbourne and Thornhill going through the motions. I say anything less than 2 points from the next 3 games and we're in the deep brown stuff.

IWasThere2016
31-08-2011, 03:35 PM
We bemoan the fact that we can't compete financially against the Old Firm then make excuses when we have a manager who can't oversee a complete drubbing at Killie.

These drubbings happen - season in, season out.

greenlex
31-08-2011, 04:39 PM
The only reason I keep coming up with to retain him is that we can't keep sacking managers. How long should he get though? This run through the fixture list? Or the next one? Fair play to those at the top for sticking by their man, that's what leadership is all about. I can only assume they really do think they have the right man. I hope they are right.

(I love the new word by the way, NADNESS........crazily acting like a baw. :thumbsup:)
Nadness they call it nadness :agree:

greenlex
31-08-2011, 04:42 PM
I don't think we should sack him - it would be utter madness. But I think it's a valid question to ask - well just how long can this be allowed to continue though??
There will come a time when enough is enough but it isnt now. I have said he should be judged on a whole season with his team unless we are in the **** at the next window. I stick by that.

Cropley10
31-08-2011, 05:56 PM
There will come a time when enough is enough but it isnt now. I have said he should be judged on a whole season with his team unless we are in the **** at the next window. I stick by that.

I think we are in danger of agreeing with each other again!

Bad Martini
31-08-2011, 07:54 PM
I agree we cannot keep sacking managers.

I agree this is not squarely down to Calderwood.

I suggest we are stuck with him til this season ends at least, unless our beloved, intrepid, wonderful and football minded board take it upon themselves to punt him. In all honesty, if we are rooted to the bottom for too long, they WILL punt him.

Here's the problem;

We had the right manager, the wrong right hand man and whilst he was the right manager, he wasnt perfect. I am referring to Collins. He's no Dalglish and Easter Road/Collins arent the same Dalglish/Anfield love affair which money cant buy and boards/chairmen cant break. Respect earned and given for a career of service and respect both ways. That said, Collins was doing everything right, bar the intricacies of the man management. He didnt have that nailed. What he did have was fight, fitness and success. Not perfect like I say. Anyone recall Fergusons' initial tenure at Man U? Exactly.

Bottom line though, with JC it wasnt to be, he left (and I Blame the board in part - lets no talk the pish about him being "backed" either - where it mattered, where BALLS and a statement was needed, showing intent over the revolt, did ANY one lazy, fat arsed, underworked, overpaid player suffer seriously??). Naw. And they ****ing well should have as they showed the shirt NO respect.

Collins on the other hand wanted a fit team, playing for the shirt. Who can fault this?

Anyway, he was replaced by a manager who simply wasnt, at that time, up to the job. What he done later is irrelevant. For us, he wasnt up to the job and it showed.

He was then replaced by ANOTHER manager who wasnt (and still isnt) up to the job...

Who was then again replaced by ANOTHER manager who has done nothing to prove HE Is up to the job any more than the other two.


I dont blame ANY of the 3 guys who took the job for taking it, giving it a shot and still being here. They're paid to do it, they do it....endof. Problem; our ****ing genius all knowing, all seeing board of directors and chairman who seem to KEEP getting this wrong.

ITS FUNDAMENTAL. THEE most important and influential "position" at any club is the Manager...he picks the team, employs the strategy, plans and cunning and shapes the team on the pitch. He runs the day to day footballing affairs and has input on transfer market dealings and many other aspects of the team. HE IS THE GAFFER................

In my humble opinion, Calderwood never offered us much more than we had. And for that, I blame those who employed him. Pissed off hearing about "transition" and "progress" and "it takes time". I love laughing at hearts but for the last five years, amidst a looney picking their team and running them into the ground financially, they are STILL in a better position than us where it matters namely, on the field. YES, I'll laugh like **** if they get into deep **** but so far its not looking like it now is it ? They have beaten us too many times for it to be funny now and I frankly get pissed off at the madness whereby we have so much more than they and indeed MANY others have BUT, dont have what matters. Good product on the pitch. Fitba fans dont follow training centres, big ****ing stands or nice healthy balance sheets. They are all nice to have and indeed, I dont profess 90's-esque spending ala McLeish's Millions but, we need to invest properly in the KEY areas of our team.

We NEED a decent, proven and reliable manager. FIRST. MOST IMPORTANT. No more important than that.
We could also use a good solid central defender who takes no **** and some really good playmaking midfielders...perhaps one out and out brilliant striker and I'd settle for a reliable, if uninspiringly boring keeper. Leighton was never exciting but he was ****ing good. I think big Garry O will come good. I think wee Ivan will do as he always has and give 200% for the cause. I think a few others MIGHT do a turn and I think occassionally, CC will get lucky. Beyond that, we're medi-****ing-ocre. Hard to admit but we are.

It wont change til the change comes from the top down. Yes, we ****ed Berwick by plenty goals. And then??? We have done not a lot where it matters and I fear against the motherwell for the tie in the next round.

Not doom. Not gloom. Not Hibs bashing. I reserve that for the rest of the league, huns and yams. BUT, the truth is we should be in a FAR better place than we are and all the infrastructural perfection in the world makes no ****ing difference (stole that from trainspotting, rest mine :greengrin).

ENDOF

down the slope
31-08-2011, 08:12 PM
I agree we cannot keep sacking managers.

I agree this is not squarely down to Calderwood.

I suggest we are stuck with him til this season ends at least, unless our beloved, intrepid, wonderful and football minded board take it upon themselves to punt him. In all honesty, if we are rooted to the bottom for too long, they WILL punt him.

Here's the problem;

We had the right manager, the wrong right hand man and whilst he was the right manager, he wasnt perfect. I am referring to Collins. He's no Dalglish and Easter Road/Collins arent the same Dalglish/Anfield love affair which money cant buy and boards/chairmen cant break. Respect earned and given for a career of service and respect both ways. That said, Collins was doing everything right, bar the intricacies of the man management. He didnt have that nailed. What he did have was fight, fitness and success. Not perfect like I say. Anyone recall Fergusons' initial tenure at Man U? Exactly.

Bottom line though, with JC it wasnt to be, he left (and I Blame the board in part - lets no talk the pish about him being "backed" either - where it mattered, where BALLS and a statement was needed, showing intent over the revolt, did ANY one lazy, fat arsed, underworked, overpaid player suffer seriously??). Naw. And they ****ing well should have as they showed the shirt NO respect.

Collins on the other hand wanted a fit team, playing for the shirt. Who can fault this?

Anyway, he was replaced by a manager who simply wasnt, at that time, up to the job. What he done later is irrelevant. For us, he wasnt up to the job and it showed.

He was then replaced by ANOTHER manager who wasnt (and still isnt) up to the job...

Who was then again replaced by ANOTHER manager who has done nothing to prove HE Is up to the job any more than the other two.


I dont blame ANY of the 3 guys who took the job for taking it, giving it a shot and still being here. They're paid to do it, they do it....endof. Problem; our ****ing genius all knowing, all seeing board of directors and chairman who seem to KEEP getting this wrong.

ITS FUNDAMENTAL. THEE most important and influential "position" at any club is the Manager...he picks the team, employs the strategy, plans and cunning and shapes the team on the pitch. He runs the day to day footballing affairs and has input on transfer market dealings and many other aspects of the team. HE IS THE GAFFER................

In my humble opinion, Calderwood never offered us much more than we had. And for that, I blame those who employed him. Pissed off hearing about "transition" and "progress" and "it takes time". I love laughing at hearts but for the last five years, amidst a looney picking their team and running them into the ground financially, they are STILL in a better position than us where it matters namely, on the field. YES, I'll laugh like **** if they get into deep **** but so far its not looking like it now is it ? They have beaten us too many times for it to be funny now and I frankly get pissed off at the madness whereby we have so much more than they and indeed MANY others have BUT, dont have what matters. Good product on the pitch. Fitba fans dont follow training centres, big ****ing stands or nice healthy balance sheets. They are all nice to have and indeed, I dont profess 90's-esque spending ala McLeish's Millions but, we need to invest properly in the KEY areas of our team.

We NEED a decent, proven and reliable manager. FIRST. MOST IMPORTANT. No more important than that.
We could also use a good solid central defender who takes no **** and some really good playmaking midfielders...perhaps one out and out brilliant striker and I'd settle for a reliable, if uninspiringly boring keeper. Leighton was never exciting but he was ****ing good. I think big Garry O will come good. I think wee Ivan will do as he always has and give 200% for the cause. I think a few others MIGHT do a turn and I think occassionally, CC will get lucky. Beyond that, we're medi-****ing-ocre. Hard to admit but we are.

It wont change til the change comes from the top down. Yes, we ****ed Berwick by plenty goals. And then??? We have done not a lot where it matters and I fear against the motherwell for the tie in the next round.

Not doom. Not gloom. Not Hibs bashing. I reserve that for the rest of the league, huns and yams. BUT, the truth is we should be in a FAR better place than we are and all the infrastructural perfection in the world makes no ****ing difference (stole that from trainspotting, rest mine :greengrin).

ENDOF

Phew, well said, agree with everything you have said but you just know it's going to have to get a lot lot worse before anything changes. There are reputations at stake now and i don't just mean the managers, if it all goes thrupenny bits up a few will have to do more than eat humble pie !.

Hibs On Tour
03-09-2011, 08:21 AM
I agree we cannot keep sacking managers.

I agree this is not squarely down to Calderwood.

I suggest we are stuck with him til this season ends at least, unless our beloved, intrepid, wonderful and football minded board take it upon themselves to punt him. In all honesty, if we are rooted to the bottom for too long, they WILL punt him.

Here's the problem;

We had the right manager, the wrong right hand man and whilst he was the right manager, he wasnt perfect. I am referring to Collins. He's no Dalglish and Easter Road/Collins arent the same Dalglish/Anfield love affair which money cant buy and boards/chairmen cant break. Respect earned and given for a career of service and respect both ways. That said, Collins was doing everything right, bar the intricacies of the man management. He didnt have that nailed. What he did have was fight, fitness and success. Not perfect like I say. Anyone recall Fergusons' initial tenure at Man U? Exactly.

Bottom line though, with JC it wasnt to be, he left (and I Blame the board in part - lets no talk the pish about him being "backed" either - where it mattered, where BALLS and a statement was needed, showing intent over the revolt, did ANY one lazy, fat arsed, underworked, overpaid player suffer seriously??). Naw. And they ****ing well should have as they showed the shirt NO respect.

Collins on the other hand wanted a fit team, playing for the shirt. Who can fault this?

Anyway, he was replaced by a manager who simply wasnt, at that time, up to the job. What he done later is irrelevant. For us, he wasnt up to the job and it showed.

He was then replaced by ANOTHER manager who wasnt (and still isnt) up to the job...

Who was then again replaced by ANOTHER manager who has done nothing to prove HE Is up to the job any more than the other two.


I dont blame ANY of the 3 guys who took the job for taking it, giving it a shot and still being here. They're paid to do it, they do it....endof. Problem; our ****ing genius all knowing, all seeing board of directors and chairman who seem to KEEP getting this wrong.

ITS FUNDAMENTAL. THEE most important and influential "position" at any club is the Manager...he picks the team, employs the strategy, plans and cunning and shapes the team on the pitch. He runs the day to day footballing affairs and has input on transfer market dealings and many other aspects of the team. HE IS THE GAFFER................

In my humble opinion, Calderwood never offered us much more than we had. And for that, I blame those who employed him. Pissed off hearing about "transition" and "progress" and "it takes time". I love laughing at hearts but for the last five years, amidst a looney picking their team and running them into the ground financially, they are STILL in a better position than us where it matters namely, on the field. YES, I'll laugh like **** if they get into deep **** but so far its not looking like it now is it ? They have beaten us too many times for it to be funny now and I frankly get pissed off at the madness whereby we have so much more than they and indeed MANY others have BUT, dont have what matters. Good product on the pitch. Fitba fans dont follow training centres, big ****ing stands or nice healthy balance sheets. They are all nice to have and indeed, I dont profess 90's-esque spending ala McLeish's Millions but, we need to invest properly in the KEY areas of our team.

We NEED a decent, proven and reliable manager. FIRST. MOST IMPORTANT. No more important than that.
We could also use a good solid central defender who takes no **** and some really good playmaking midfielders...perhaps one out and out brilliant striker and I'd settle for a reliable, if uninspiringly boring keeper. Leighton was never exciting but he was ****ing good. I think big Garry O will come good. I think wee Ivan will do as he always has and give 200% for the cause. I think a few others MIGHT do a turn and I think occassionally, CC will get lucky. Beyond that, we're medi-****ing-ocre. Hard to admit but we are.

It wont change til the change comes from the top down. Yes, we ****ed Berwick by plenty goals. And then??? We have done not a lot where it matters and I fear against the motherwell for the tie in the next round.

Not doom. Not gloom. Not Hibs bashing. I reserve that for the rest of the league, huns and yams. BUT, the truth is we should be in a FAR better place than we are and all the infrastructural perfection in the world makes no ****ing difference (stole that from trainspotting, rest mine :greengrin).

ENDOF

On the money with all that for me. Personally think JC was the right man, in the wrong role, at the wrong time. For me, he should have started his trade at a lower league team then somewhere down the line ended up as an assistant here before taking the hot seat. Let him learn his trade in the lower leagues, learn how to man-manage, get some experience of how to deal with the situations that come up. That experience would have been invaluable and IMHO would have prevented a lot of what happened and possibly we could have kicked on instead of this constant merry-go-round. I blame the board for employing someone to a top-level job with zero experience, even as an assistant. That was just stupid and ultimately I feel they are to blame for all that happened. I think the 'revolt' was down to JC's lack of any man-management experience [and learned skills] and that lack of experience was down to the board putting someone in that role who wasn't ready for it.

Again, the buck stops with the board and who they employ. Somewhere down the line they need to have some accountability for this because as Bob says, its the single most important job at the club by a LONG distance.

matty_f
04-09-2011, 09:34 AM
Good posts on this thread SR, and you quite rightly bemoan the lack of progress under Calderwood since he took over.

However, we have not made any progress since March 2007 no matter who the manager or players have been. This malaise started with the player revolt and has continued since then. Who was to blame for that has been debated often enough, but no matter, it was a cataclysmic event in our recent timeline. It switched the control at the club from the managers to the players, and we've never recovered.

Somebody, anybody, needs to be given some time to try and sort it out. I would have given Mixu the time. I would have given Hughes the time. I would definitely give someone with the track record (as player and manager) of Colin Calderwood the time.

His record is dreadful so far, granted. There's no getting away from it. He needs a string of wins throughout September and October. I really hope he gets that time because starting AGAIN with another manager (who?) doesn't bear thinking about.

Good post bawheid. I think the main argument against those that say Calderwood should get the same treatment as Yogi is that we need to learn lessons from the disastrous results of ditching managers half way through a job. I've seen the quote about the definition of insanity being doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. If the board keech their pants and ditch Calderwood, we're back at square one and anyone expecting things to be different under the next manager is (by Einstein's definition!) insane!

--------
05-09-2011, 09:37 AM
We simply haven't. A losing streak at the end of last season continued in to this one. Calderwoods team is just as bad as the one Hughes had. If this was in any way a strong league then the argument that his players need time to settle in might just hold water. We bemoan the fact that we can't compete financially against the Old Firm then make excuses when we have a manager who can't oversee a complete drubbing at Killie.


I thought he oversaw that drubbing really well, myself.

I'm not sure there's another manager in the League who could have set us up for that drubbing as well as Calderwood did.

He's very good at overseeing defeats - as good as Duffy and the later period of John Hughes.


I never thought I'd say this, but right now I'd welcome Bobby Williamson back at ER with rejoicing.

bawheid
05-09-2011, 09:42 AM
I thought he oversaw that drubbing really well, myself.

I'm not sure there's another manager in the League who could have set us up for that drubbing as well as Calderwood did.

He's very good at overseeing defeats - as good as Duffy and the later period of John Hughes.


I never thought I'd say this, but right now I'd welcome Bobby Williamson back at ER with rejoicing.

Williamson should have been sacked on the spot when his team lined up at Hampden against Livingston. Gary Caldwell in midfield FFS. I'd have any of our previous managers (even the ones sadly departed) in the dugout ahead of him.

It should be noted that previous managers - messrs Mowbray, Collins, Paatelainen, Hughes - also oversaw drubbings at Killie.

September and October - no excuses. His team is in place and he needs a string of results.

Houchy
05-09-2011, 10:19 AM
I am sure that CC would probably have liked the players in bold to, but there were sold, something he cant do anything about, and he wont have even met Stokes as he was long go to Celtic by the time CC arrived.

The players from the above that are therefore no longer there would be;

Miller
McBride
Riordan
Nish
Hogg

Nish and Hogg were hounded out by the fans as much as anything else, McBride was described by some to have found his level when he went to Raith, plenty even turned on Riordan for what he was giving to the team. Out of the above Miller is the only one that would walk into the current team IMO.

The record is not good, but out of interest how many games where lost before the 1st transfer window CC had? and then how many prior to the end of that window when we was able to bring in some players to help avoid the much dicussed relegation last season?

In any event it is getting back into the merits of assessing the current manager against the old managers team, the current points for this season against a combination of last. Simple for me, this season has not started the best, mostly to do with the fact that only three players from your preferred starting 11 are still at the club, there is no way you can debate that having to change so much has had an effect. Some of our new players came in working off injury, others took injury during there first 45 mins of football, and some beyond that are just coming back or arrived at the club on Friday past.

I am not judging CC on last season, doing that is for one purpose and one purpose only. Almost everyone on here wanted an entire new team - well we got it. Why not judge the man on the team he has pulled together that the fans so desperatly wanted?

We are, and the team is P*** poor... STILL

He came in last season and dragged us away from relegation with a good run against (poor) teams but as soon as that job was done, it went back to loss after loss after loss which ultimately cost us league position and therefore hundreds of thousands of pounds.