Competitive Scottish League

[Septimus]

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

[PISTOL1875]

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

Both Paul Le Guen at Rangers and our every own John Collins tried that and look what happened to them ???

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Everyone that proposes a ten team SPL seems to merely look at it as a paper exercise. The fact that most fans do not want it and it would make the game in Scotland even more tedious doesn't seem to enter the equation.

It's time to stop the nonsense about a 'competitive 10 team league' which is purely about making the OF more able to compete in Europe (see how well that policy has worked so far!), and concentrate on the home product. 16 team league, 30 league games a season, make bizarre kick off times the exception rather than the rule.

Less money in the Scottish game? - yes, at least initially, but we'd all be in the same boat.
More incentive to develop young local talent - yes.
Less interest from the TV companies? - yes, but the game doesn't belong to them.
Better product and a more interesting league? - yes, I believe so and it may bring some of the crowds back.
More room for experimentation and less of a fear factor - yes.
Two derbies a season rather than 3 or 4? - yes, and a good thing too IMO: the more derbies there are, the less of an occasion they become.
Risk of the OF leaving for 'greener' pastures? - let's hope so.

[PISTOL1875]

Everyone that proposes a ten team SPL seems to merely look at it as a paper exercise. The fact that most fans do not want it and it would make the game in Scotland even more tedious doesn't seem to enter the equation.

It's time to stop the nonsense about a 'competitive 10 team league' which is purely about making the OF more able to compete in Europe (see how well that policy has worked so far!), and concentrate on the home product. 16 team league, 30 league games a season, make bizarre kick off times the exception rather than the rule.

Less money in the Scottish game? - yes, at least initially, but we'd all be in the same boat.
More incentive to develop young local talent - yes.
Less interest from the TV companies? - yes, but the game doesn't belong to them.
Better product and a more interesting league? - yes, I believe so and it may bring some of the crowds back.
More room for experimentation and less of a fear factor - yes.
Two derbies a season rather than 3 or 4? - yes, and a good thing too IMO: the more derbies there are, the less of an occasion they become.
Risk of the OF leaving for 'greener' pastures? - let's hope so.

Yeh that would be great.. Then our game would go right down the toilet...

[weecounty hibby]

Yeh that would be great.. Then our game would go right down the toilet...

Please explain. They are here at the moment and we are at the lowest ebb I have seen in 37 years of wathing Scottish football. They are the root cause of most of the problems in Scottish football and a lot of the problems in Scottish society!

[PISTOL1875]

Please explain. They are here at the moment and we are at the lowest ebb I have seen in 37 years of wathing Scottish football. They are the root cause of most of the problems in Scottish football and a lot of the problems in Scottish society!

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

[TheEastTerrace]

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

His argument is that the top ten teams play each other more often meaning more intensity playing against the best players in Scotland each week. Not saying I agree, but that's what he's getting at.

Problems for me go much deeper - I think the sheer lack of professionalism in some players is huge - as someone pointed out, Le Guen and Collins were ditched for trying to bring in a cleaner lifestyle and tougher training regime. The boys would rather have their midweek night on the lash. The Cameron House incident summed up Scottish players, perhaps British players too, for me.

I also read Rantic's highest earners are on £25k per week - rather inflated IMO for the gash churned out each week.

[Dashing Bob S]

The only way Levein could change of the many unacceptable faces of Scottish football is by getting rid of that stupid beard.

[Hibercelona]

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

Who currently gives a monkeys about our game anyway? :confused:

[PISTOL1875]

Who currently gives a monkeys about our game anyway? :confused:

You are right mate.. Games against hertz are the only time I get excited about these days....

[SRHibs]

A 16 team league would be a bad idea in my opinion, for the following reasons:

Less of each lucrative game. Fine, playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts 3-4 times in a season might be a little bit tedious, but these are our most profitable matches. Replacing those with lackluster affairs such as matches against Dundee, Ayr, Ross Country or whoever, wouldn't be that wise.
Not enough European places to play for. With a small league like we currently have, unless you've been terrible throughout the entire season, then the chances are you'll still be in with a chance of Euro qualification in the latter stages of the season. Attendances would most likely plummet drastically were we to be in 12th place half way through the season with nothing to play for.
Less money in the game = poorer standard of football. Again, we would expect a decrease in attendances as a result of this. We're already paying an extortionate amount for mediocre football.
We need to maximise our income, so I'm in support of whatever league system will do this. I don't want to play in a league akin to the Irish one - ***** standard of football, but competitive.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....

Who do you think gives a monkeys at the moment, outside of Scottish football fans? Nobody in any other country is interested and the TV companies seem to be losing interest too.

Celtic V Rangers is of absolutely no interest, whatsoever, to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

More money in the game doesn't automatically make it a better product, only a more expensive one for the fans. Personally, I'd rather see home grown (cheaper, if you like) young players dominating the game in Scotland, before moving on, than largely overpaid foreign / English journeymen. The current situation is untenable, IMO, and a ten team league would only make it worse.

[PISTOL1875]

Who do you think gives a monkeys at the moment, outside of Scottish football fans? Nobody in any other country is interested and the TV companies seem to be losing interest too.

Celtic V Rangers is of absolutely no interest, whatsoever, to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

More money in the game doesn't automatically make it a better product, only a more expensive one for the fans. Personally, I'd rather see home grown (cheaper, if you like) young players dominating the game in Scotland, before moving on, than largely overpaid foreign / English journeymen. The current situation is untenable, IMO, and a ten team league would only make it worse.

Yeh but they are a interest of the millions of fans they have all over the world.. These are the people who watch them on TV and thats where the money thats in our game comes from.. Albeit , its very little , its better than nothing.....

[SRHibs]

Who do you think gives a monkeys at the moment, outside of Scottish football fans? Nobody in any other country is interested and the TV companies seem to be losing interest too.

Celtic V Rangers is of absolutely no interest, whatsoever, to me, and I don't think I'm alone.

More money in the game doesn't automatically make it a better product, only a more expensive one for the fans. Personally, I'd rather see home grown (cheaper, if you like) young players dominating the game in Scotland, before moving on, than largely overpaid foreign / English journeymen. The current situation is untenable, IMO, and a ten team league would only make it worse.

The prices are never going to drop. The Scottish game will end up six feet under if we vote to expand to a 16 or 18 team league, IMO. Would be even worse if the OF were to leave us. Can't imagine many will be too keen to pay £28 a ticket for football that's of Sunday league quality.

[Moulin Yarns]

We had a more com
petetive league when more teams were able to compete against the old firm, and that was when all gate money was shared equally. Next question.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

A 16 team league would be a bad idea in my opinion, for the following reasons:

Less of each lucrative game. Fine, playing Rangers, Celtic and Hearts 3-4 times in a season might be a little bit tedious, but these are our most profitable matches. Replacing those with lackluster affairs such as matches against Dundee, Ayr, Ross Country or whoever, wouldn't be that wise.
Not enough European places to play for. With a small league like we currently have, unless you've been terrible throughout the entire season, then the chances are you'll still be in with a chance of Euro qualification in the latter stages of the season. Attendances would most likely plummet drastically were we to be in 12th place half way through the season with nothing to play for.
Less money in the game = poorer standard of football. Again, we would expect a decrease in attendances as a result of this. We're already paying an extortionate amount for mediocre football.

We need to maximise our income, so I'm in support of whatever league system will do this. I don't want to play in a league akin to the Irish one - ***** standard of football, but competive.

There's no reason games against these sides should be any more lacklustre than the current fare, TBH. As far as playing Hearts 3 or 4 times a season is concerned, it merely devalues these games. Yes we make a bit more money out of them but even at these games attendances seem to be falling and I suspect we're in danger of 'killing the golden goose'.

All the SPL can think of is more games between the top teams, as if that's a panacea, rather than looking at the overall product. "Maximising our income", as you put it, is not an end in itself.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Yeh but they are a interest of the millions of fans they have all over the world.. These are the people who watch them on TV and thats where the money thats in our game comes from.. Albeit , its very little , its better than nothing.....

With all due respect, this is a "crumbs from the master's table" counsel of despair.

[Hibercelona]

You are right mate.. Games against hertz are the only time I get excited about these days....

I don't think the OF leaving would have a negative effect on the league at all, quite the opposite IMO.

Our best players have almost always been brought up through the youth system. If the OF were to leave, the lack of money would force clubs into developing their own youngsters through their youth set ups.

This would be great because:

1) We would have players that were loyal to their clubs and would play for the strip
2) No longer would we experience over priced and over-rated dross from other countries
3) In todays youth-lazy country, it would give more youngsters something to aim for and something to get motivated about
4) The SPL would no longer get such a negative rep with those 2 monsters gone

Things would certainly be tough to begin with, but I reckon in the long run, with the right attitude and keeping football a fun, involving sport, the SPL could certainly thrive.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

The prices are never going to drop. The Scottish game will end up six feet under if we vote to expand to a 16 or 18 team league, IMO. Would be even worse if the OF were to leave us. Can't imagine many will be too keen to pay £28 a ticket for football that's of Sunday league quality.

How many feet above ground do you think the Scottish game is right now?

The cynic in me says that you may well be right that prices won't ever drop, in which case my proposition falls. My preferred (idealistic) option would be that clubs wise up and cut their cloth accordingly, the game becomes cheaper for fans, whether the OF stays or goes, and the game is run for the benefit of the fans, rather than the TV companies, Rangers and Celtic.

I accept this is unlikely in the immediate future, but it may be more likely than you think, if and when football's financial bubble, particularly in England and Spain, finally bursts and deflation comes into effect. On the other hand, I'm probably talking b*****ks! :greengrin

[alexedwards]

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.


The fact that Levein does not say why a 10-team league is more competitive suggests there is no why and that someone else is doing the talking for him.
Levein and some others think all is well with the Scottish national team - and that would mean qualification for a major tournament - we'll see!

[Sas_The_Hibby]

The fact that Levein does not say why a 10-team league is more competitive suggests there is no why and that someone else is doing the talking for him.
Levein and some others think all is well with the Scottish national team - and that would mean qualification for a major tournament - we'll see!

The ten team league has just become a mantra, like "There Is No Alternative". There are several alternatives but they just don't happen to suit the OF, IMO.

[weecounty hibby]

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....
There is NO selling point to our game. Just look at the tv money we get. Even with the disgusting institution that is the OF no one and I mean no one is interested. How interested are you in Argentinian football? They arguably have bigger derbies than the OF game. Do you want to pay to see them? No, didn't think so. That is how the OF is seen around the world, It is a freak show that people will watch once or twice and then become bored of it. We as a country need to stop pandering to them at every level.

[HibsNibs]

Yeh but they are a interest of the millions of fans they have all over the world.. These are the people who watch them on TV and thats where the money thats in our game comes from.. Albeit , its very little , its better than nothing.....

Wrong - next time there's an OF derby look at this site

http://liveonsat.com/index.html

and you'll see it's on in about 3 countries while the corresponding EPL or La Liga match will be on in about 30 or 40. Nobody outside Scotland except a few sad bigoted ex-pats give a flying one about the gruesome twosome.

[PISTOL1875]

With all due respect, this is a "crumbs from the master's table" counsel of despair.

But these are the facts mate.. You can't hide from it can you ????

[PISTOL1875]

Wrong - next time there's an OF derby look at this site

http://liveonsat.com/index.html

and you'll see it's on in about 3 countries while the corresponding EPL or La Liga match will be on in about 30 or 40. Nobody outside Scotland except a few sad bigoted ex-pats give a flying one about the gruesome twosome.

That is complete tosh.. It doesn't matter where you go in the world.. You will always see Celtic or Rangers tops...

[PISTOL1875]

There is NO selling point to our game. Just look at the tv money we get. Even with the disgusting institution that is the OF no one and I mean no one is interested. How interested are you in Argentinian football? They arguably have bigger derbies than the OF game. Do you want to pay to see them? No, didn't think so. That is how the OF is seen around the world, It is a freak show that people will watch once or twice and then become bored of it. We as a country need to stop pandering to them at every level.

The OF are the main attraction in our game and that's the facts.. There is no getting away from it..

Celtic need Rangers..
Rangers need Celtic.
Everybody needs Celtic and Rangers..

[weecounty hibby]

That is complete tosh.. It doesn't matter where you go in the world.. You will always see Celtic or Rangers tops...

With respect you need to stop listening to your OF supporting mates and the OF biased media. I have travelled all over the world and can honestly say that I have seen very few OF tops except when you go to the package holiday resorts and that is usually holiday makers. Even if you go to Dublin, which I have done a number of times, most recently on business two months ago you will see very few Celtic tops, they are more interested in the EPL teams and rugby than Celtic.

[weecounty hibby]

The OF are the main attraction in our game and that's the facts.. There is no getting away from it..

Celtic need Rangers..
Rangers need Celtic.
Everybody needs Celtic and Rangers..

I agree with you on your first two points but think you are way off the mark with the third. They need us more than we need them. We would have another 37 senior teams to play, they would only be able to play each other!

[HiBremian]

Levein in a Scotsman article today opts for a more "competitive 10 team league" which he believes is "the right thing for Scottish football. He does not make it clear why a ten team league would be more competitive than the present model. Rangers and Celtic will continue to dominate until it is recognised that the financial package has to be shared fairly between all for the benefit of all. Tinkering with the league structure is not the answer and attendances this year show that unless a radical change is introduced the game in Scotland is dead.

Hibs are now rapidly going the way of the Partick Thistles and Dundees of this world. These were competitive teams at the top of Scottish football when I was a boy and they have been frozen out financially.

Where I would agree with Levien is in his assessment that "we need clubs to recognise that they need to train more often". While the players in the Scottish league may arguably be less skillful than those in the English league surely they can be just as fit. What is needed is a strong dose of professionalism from our players.

C'mon boys and girls, give the OP a bit more respect. He states clearly that tinkering is not the answer, and we get (with some fine exceptions!) a series of posts about.......


....tinkering.

* no of teams in the league
* with or without the OF
* the selling point of the league as presently consituted

The original question was how to make the league more competitive - which might just get the fans returning. The OP gives a hint - the financial structure. FFS, don't just accept the financial structure, and then go on about the OF leaving if we don't make it attractive enough. The game needs radical change, and that means some political will to take on the money men. Football clubs don't have to be based on raw capitalism - we used to share all gate monies, remember, and for a good reason. The league was once seen as a cooperative enterprise amongst sports teams who agreed to compete under a commonly owned umbrella. That's what leagues used to be. Then the money men took over, and decided that football clubs were just another stock market plaything.

I now live in Germany, and there's one ugly club here as well (you all know who they are). Frankly, they could GTF tomorrow, and the rest of the Bundesliga would hardly notice. The league here is more competitive because there are still some basic rules in place about what owners can and cannot do with a football club. The German model is not great panacea (http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2010/03/11/fan-ownership-the-bundesliga-model/) for our troubles, but it shows that there are other ways to run football.

No nationalist myself, but if they were smart, this would be another one of these SNP issues that clearly distinguishes us from south of the border.

Just my view...:saltireflag

PS Werder won again today, top equal with the Uglies :greengrin:greengrin

[PISTOL1875]

With respect you need to stop listening to your OF supporting mates and the OF biased media. I have travelled all over the world and can honestly say that I have seen very few OF tops except when you go to the package holiday resorts and that is usually holiday makers. Even if you go to Dublin, which I have done a number of times, most recently on business two months ago you will see very few Celtic tops, they are more interested in the EPL teams and rugby than Celtic.



You wanna stop patronising me here. . I am giving you my view on the topic and I find it offensive that you think that I don't see my view without input from other angles..

Moving on, You see OF tops everywhere.. Why do you think Celtic go to places like Australia to play friendlies ?? They go to help promote themselves in that neck of the woods.. I was in Australia last year and there was OF tops kicking about.. Have you ever been to Boston mate ???

[PISTOL1875]

I agree with you on your first two points but think you are way off the mark with the third. They need us more than we need them. We would have another 37 senior teams to play, they would only be able to play each other!

Everybody needs the OF mate.. It's clear as day.. Why do you think they are trying to go back to a 10 team top flight ?? So they can play the OF at least 6 times in a season and maybe even 8 if they finish in the Top 6..

The income generated from OF matches helps teams considerably.. Without this income , many teams would struggle.. Forfar drew Rangers in the Cup either last season or the season before.. They recieved a 6 figure sum that will keep them going for how many season to come ??

[weecounty hibby]

Everybody needs the OF mate.. It's clear as day.. Why do you think they are trying to go back to a 10 team top flight ?? So they can play the OF at least 6 times in a season and maybe even 8 if they finish in the Top 6..

The income generated from OF matches helps teams considerably.. Without this income , many teams would struggle.. Forfar drew Rangers in the Cup either last season or the season before.. They recieved a 6 figure sum that will keep them going for how many season to come ??

Nobody needs the old firm except the old firm. They are unique as far as I can see in world football where two teams completely dominate a country not just the football but the whole country. They take fans from every single city town village and hamlet in Scotland. I live in Alloa, there is a senior footbal club that averages about 500 of a crowd. There are more OF fans that leave here every Saturday than goes to watch their own home town team. From a population of about 5 million, we have 100,000 watching them, actually attending matches, every week. Thats equivalent to Manchester United playing in front of 1 million people each game. It is a mind numbing statistic and as I have said there is nowhere else in world footall that I can think of that is like it. We have put up with it for years. Attitudes need to change if Scotland is to have a competitive league again. One poster further up hits it on the head when he talks about when all teams shared gate money. That was changed at the insistance of the OF and it benefitted only the OF. Voting structures of 11-1 benefits only the OF. 10 teams in the league benefits the OF as it makes it easier for them to win it every single year. Right now they really are competing in a league of two teams as playing them four times each makes it almost impossible to win the league. I can (just) remember when Hibs gave them a run for their money, I also remember Aberdeen and Dundee utd winning the league. I can honestly say that I can't ever see anyone outside the OF winning it unless we take drastic measures and the OF have no intention of changing as everything that happens in Scotland is designed to suit them with everyone else trailing behind them.

They are big fish in a tiny wee bowl. They got papped out of Europe by teams who would love to have the uneven playing field that they play on each season. They, and we, should realise just where they are in world football circles nowadays. They are like the school bully who throws his weight around at primary school but is just a nobody when it comes to stepping up to the high school.

Do I want the OF to leave? I couldn't really care less. Do I think they will? No. Nobody else wants or needs them.

What would I do to make things better? Expand the league to 16/18. Have more relegation and promotion places up for grabs. Have play offs. Distribute the money more evenly by sharing gate monies again. I would have a salary cap on players wages. Cut entrance fees to encourage more punters in through the gates. Make sure that TV money is shared equally. Don't have the OF on tv every week. I think it will take years but it needs to change.

[Monkey Harris]

Only three teams can win the league in the EPL. Only two teams can win in Spain. Shows not just a situation that applies to the SPL.

[stokesmessiah]

That is complete tosh.. It doesn't matter where you go in the world.. You will always see Celtic or Rangers tops...

Sorry what's your point here??

I have a pair of calgary flames boxer shorts, never watched them in my life ! :agree:

[Liberal Hibby]

I've come to the conclusion that there are no ways left to cut up Scottish football that result in any benefit for either the OF or the rest.

The only way forward is for the entire Scottish league to apply to join the English pyramid. With a bit of luck they may create an extra division that means some of the bigger teams may start in the league while the rest hang around a regional league.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I really don't understand this argument about games against "lower" opposition being less attractive than against rantic. Every league in the world has a couple of teams dominating with the occasional team coming through to give them a fright. In Europe, the Champions Leagus has ensured this. I said when the CL first started that the team that qualified for it the first season should go on to qualify for it every year due to the monies being paid. Every team in the world has a top a middle and a bottom. The teams have to play each other. Do Man U or Chelsea complain about playing Blackpool or QPR or whoever? No. It is part of the league set up. 18 teams, playing each other home and away would suffice. It was touched on in another thread the percentage of our income that comes from Sky. Tell them to stick it and get back to 3pm kick offs on a Saturday and I reckon people will come back, especially if we have a winning or challenging team.

[Septimus]

we had a more com
petetive league when more teams were able to compete against the old firm, and that was when all gate money was shared equally. Next question.

exactly

[Moulin Yarns]

exactly

Thanks. Simple answer to the original question, none of the slagging other folk's opinions.

The only problem is, it will never happen because two clubs would never agree to it.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Only three teams can win the league in the EPL. Only two teams can win in Spain. Shows not just a situation that applies to the SPL.

True perhaps in a particular season but there are a number of clubs that could conceivably win it in the foreseeable future - e.g. Man U, Man C, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Aston Villa, Everton. This just isn't the case in Scotland.

5 clubs have won the Spanish League in the last 20 years, though, obviously, Real and Barca have dominated.

[southern hibby]

The whole selling point of our game is quite simply.. Celtic V Rangers..

Do you honestly think if those two up sticks and left , anybody would give a monkeys about our game ????

Teams would struggle financially and many of the lower league would have to part time and maybe even bust....


They probably would initially but on a whole I believe we would end up with more home fans coming to games. Just look at the attendance at Easter Road when we were in the First Division, We got Bigger crowds because we had a chance to compete and win the League. Obviously I cant be sure but I think we would end up with bigger crowds as more teams would be on a even playing field without the Ugly Sisters ruining our game. I really cannot be sure what would happen to the smaller clubs, but Hibs, ****s, DU, Killie, Motherwell and Aberdeen would definately get bigger crowds over the season (If they are competing) for the league.

We listen to the Media (and lets not be mistaken) most of it is from Glasgow saying how this is bad for Scottish football and thats bad etc. BUT NON OF THEM HAVE GOT THE BALLS TO TURN ROUND and TELL US WHAT WE HAVE KNOWN FOR YEARS. That Celtic and Rangers are Killing our game.

We should be looking for different ways to sell our game. Here's one (not saying this is a great idea, but it is an idea) Summer football, Tv companies would be trying to pay for our games as it means they would have all year tv football. We might even get more fans coming to games in warm weather rather than the snow and rain. We might even get a better standard of football because this would mean games played on better surfaces rather than wet soaked pitches.

I really do not think for one second Scottish clubs should turn over and let the Weegie media and teams tickle our belly's and throw us thier scraps. WE DESERRVE BETTER THAN THIS.

GGTTH.

[down the slope]

Here we go again, why is it when the OF get pumped out of europe we have to change the league set up , might it not be that they have a couple of duff managers ?. I hope they never qualify for any euro group games again, the poorer that lot become the better for Scottish football. As for the league size it's only a matter of time before someone will come out with"who would you rather watch, Rangers or Dundee" ?, well i say if you want to see Rangers or Celtic away and buy a season ticket for one of them, if i never saw either of them again it would do me fine. I take it the reason for a smaller league is to make it more competitive and for the chosen few clubs to get a bit extra cash but how is this going to address the standard of our football ?, Doncaster has stated on many occasions that a smaller league would allow clubs to BRING IN better players , now that might help Scottish teams to get further in european competitions but is going to do zip for our young players who will be forced out to the lower leagues , absolutely nuts !. All this because the manks are out but please don't forget that at the first hint of a move to the English leagues they would be off , if only !.

[CFC]

What a load of pish. If you had a motor race at Brands Hatch with 2 Ferraris and 10 Mondeos (12 drivers) where the Ferraris were lapping the rest of the field halfway through the race how would dropping 2 Mondeos from the field make for a more competitive race?

[IWasThere2016]

I don't think the OF leaving would have a negative effect on the league at all, quite the opposite IMO.

Our best players have almost always been brought up through the youth system. If the OF were to leave, the lack of money would force clubs into developing their own youngsters through their youth set ups.

This would be great because:

1) We would have players that were loyal to their clubs and would play for the strip
2) No longer would we experience over priced and over-rated dross from other countries
3) In todays youth-lazy country, it would give more youngsters something to aim for and something to get motivated about
4) The SPL would no longer get such a negative rep with those 2 monsters gone

Things would certainly be tough to begin with, but I reckon in the long run, with the right attitude and keeping football a fun, involving sport, the SPL could certainly thrive.

I agree - and soon we will have nothing to lose in punting the OF. We have arguably already passed that point but something must be done and bl++dy soon!

[tony]

I agree - and soon we will have nothing to lose in punting the OF. We have arguably already passed that point but something must be done and bl++dy soon!

I think the OF leaving or not is a side issue, although they would jump quickly if given the chance. Given their support and fan base it would make sense in such an unbalanced league. Stay or not I think you have hit the nail on the head by saying we have passed the point of no return. We have Scotland managers who simply don't understand that its a ten team league with the boredom for fans and the fear for players that has brought our football to this state. Its the people in charge of our teams who charge Michelin 3 star prices for a pizza supper with loads of brown sauce. Its administrators, politicians with no vision to build facilities for communities all over the country like Iceland and Finland and coaches of kids who cant wait for 'proper' competitive fitba at 12, so they can show off their shiny trophies while boys of real talent end up playing one dimensional football and are on the scrap heap by sixteen, fed up with the 'beautiful' game.

Time to step back in time. Forget the telly, forget the journeymen foreign players who bring nothing to our game, forget playing 4/5/6 times a year so that even a game against your closest rival becomes a shattering bore. Lets start playing our football like we used to, where every team had one or two players you would love to turn up to see, where youngsters come through without fear and learn to express themselves. Lets cut the prices so that kids in our community can actually go to see their team, building up a relationship that, for all of us, lasts a lifetime (the average age of fans has gone up over twenty years in around the same period). Lets see a team made up of exciting young talent playing the way football should be played - we've shown in the past that its possible to be in Scotland and play decent football. Killie are doing the same this year. It doesn't have to be ****. Other countries do it and are now better than us - al the Scandinavians caught up with us a long time ago and are way more successful internationally. Most of these teams are firmly grounded in their communities and it goes without saying are much cheaper to get into.

As you said, the present mess is probably beyond the point of return, and the crowds show that most folk have just given up.

Could changing it from the bottom up be any worse than it is now?

[down the slope]

I think the OF leaving or not is a side issue, although they would jump quickly if given the chance. Given their support and fan base it would make sense in such an unbalanced league. Stay or not I think you have hit the nail on the head by saying we have passed the point of no return. We have Scotland managers who simply don't understand that its a ten team league with the boredom for fans and the fear for players that has brought our football to this state. Its the people in charge of our teams who charge Michelin 3 star prices for a pizza supper with loads of brown sauce. Its administrators, politicians with no vision to build facilities for communities all over the country like Iceland and Finland and coaches of kids who cant wait for 'proper' competitive fitba at 12, so they can show off their shiny trophies while boys of real talent end up playing one dimensional football and are on the scrap heap by sixteen, fed up with the 'beautiful' game.

Time to step back in time. Forget the telly, forget the journeymen foreign players who bring nothing to our game, forget playing 4/5/6 times a year so that even a game against your closest rival becomes a shattering bore. Lets start playing our football like we used to, where every team had one or two players you would love to turn up to see, where youngsters come through without fear and learn to express themselves. Lets cut the prices so that kids in our community can actually go to see their team, building up a relationship that, for all of us, lasts a lifetime (the average age of fans has gone up over twenty years in around the same period). Lets see a team made up of exciting young talent playing the way football should be played - we've shown in the past that its possible to be in Scotland and play decent football. Killie are doing the same this year. It doesn't have to be ****. Other countries do it and are now better than us - al the Scandinavians caught up with us a long time ago and are way more successful internationally. Most of these teams are firmly grounded in their communities and it goes without saying are much cheaper to get into.

As you said, the present mess is probably beyond the point of return, and the crowds show that most folk have just given up.

Could changing it from the bottom up be any worse than it is now?

Spot on, i remember years ago we used to beat teams from norway so easily that they had a debate in their Parliament as they thought the standard of football they played was a disgrace to the nation. Look at them now ? i don't know where they stand in the European placings but i bet it's way above us, and another thing , they have a sixteen team league with playoffs for two relegation spots just for the interest of Rod/ Doncaster and the rest of the tubes who advocate a smaller league.

[Moody Mulder]

Wrong - next time there's an OF derby look at this site

http://liveonsat.com/index.html

and you'll see it's on in about 3 countries while the corresponding EPL or La Liga match will be on in about 30 or 40. Nobody outside Scotland except a few sad bigoted ex-pats give a flying one about the gruesome twosome.

correct mate !!!

my mate travels all over the americas and europe with his work, its very very rare to see anyone in these countries talking about or even wearind the old firm football tops, where you will always see man utd, barcalona, real tops on display everywhere, these squillions of fans the old firm claim to have in every corner of the world is total jobbies !!!

[TheEastTerrace]

What should worry every single football club in Scotland is the UEFA financial fair play rules, which if catches on, will no doubt be recommended domestically (is already happening in Football League in England) in other leagues. Basically, clubs will be brought into line financially and ratio of turnover to expenditure brought in. Debt will be capped. If you think the OF are powerful now, wait until this kicks in because every single one of us cannot even think of competing with the OF's financial might in terms of turnover.

Ironically, Hibs would be in a decent position here but we'd still be well out of the OF reach. Hertz would be screwed!