Which home run is really the worst?

[Andy74]

Just having a look again at the worst run of home games without a win that we had at the end of 09/10 season and the amount of criticism we took then.

When you look at it we played:

Aberdeen drew 2-2
St Johnstone drew 1-1
Ross County drew 2-2
Dundee United lost 2-4
Celtic lost 0-1
Rangers lost 0-1
Hearts lost 1-2
Rangers lost 0-3
Inverness drew 1-1
Hamilton drew 1-1

It lasted February to September.

Drew five games and lost five. Five games out of ten against top six teams. Three Old Firm games.

We only lost to teams of the calibre of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Dundee United.

Our current home run without a win is:

Hearts drew 2-2
Hamilton lost 1-2
St Mirren drew 1-1
St Johnsone lost 1-2
Aberdeen lost 1-3
Celtic lost 0-2
St Mirren lost 1-2

This has so far lasted February to late August.

We have drawn two games and lost five. Two games out of seven against top six. One Old Firm game.

Lost games against Hamilton, St Johnstone, Aberdeen, St Mirren and Celtic.


Okay, it's seven against ten games so far but I think I know which I'd consider to be the worst run given the opposition and balance of defeats.

[Beefster]

We drew with Hearts 2-2 in April so the run hasn't lasted since February. Our last game in February was a home win and there were no home games in March.

Hughes team, on the other hand, drew with Aberdeen in early February so that definitely was a run from February.

I lost interest when I realised that it wasn't a cool-headed appraisal of the facts but a agenda-driven post designed to make Calderwood look worse / Hughes look better.

[hibsbollah]

Its totally irrelevant. Its like asking if you prefer standing on an upturned plug barefoot or being booted square in the baws.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I lost interest when I realised that it wasn't a cool-headed appraisal of the facts but a agenda-driven post designed to make Calderwood look worse / Hughes look better.

he's like a dug wae a bone :agree: some people just cant seem to let go, i would see his point if he was trying to defend a manager with a half-decent record but ffs gie up eh, totally monotonous now :yawn:

[Andy74]

We drew with Hearts 2-2 in April so the run hasn't lasted since February. Our last game in February was a home win and there were no home games in March.

Hughes team, on the other hand, drew with Aberdeen in early February so that definitely was a run from February.

I lost interest when I realised that it wasn't a cool-headed appraisal of the facts but a agenda-driven post designed to make Calderwood look worse / Hughes look better.

So the last home win on each occassion was February.

I think everyone else seems to be getting a bit obsessed with Hughes. Again, never mentioned him, but we are currently on a very poor run of home form and very relevant to compare it to the one that was our 'worst ever'.

Anything to say on the actual appraisal of the facts, whic is exactly what it is?

[Moulin Yarns]

So the last home win on each occassion was February.

I think everyone else seems to be getting a bit obsessed with Hughes. Again, never mentioned him, but we are currently on a very poor run of home form and very relevant to compare it to the one that was our 'worst ever'.

Anything to say on the actual appraisal of the facts, whic is exactly what it is?

If you can't come up with a similar analysis of a similar run under Jim Duffy, you might be able to prove that the current run is indeed the worst ever, but as one who has been following Hibs since the late 1960's I'm fairly sure there will have been a worse run than the current one.

[Andy74]

he's like a dug wae a bone :agree: some people just cant seem to let go, i would see his point if he was trying to defend a manager with a half-decent record but ffs gie up eh, totally monotonous now :yawn:

I'm not defending anyone, I'm attacking Caldwerwwod and his extremenly bad recent record, which to me looks worse when analysed than the actual worst home record ever.

As I've said above, seems to be a few of you with the Hughes obsession!

[Andy74]

If you can't come up with a similar analysis of a similar run under Jim Duffy, you might be able to prove that the current run is indeed the worst ever, but as one who has been following Hibs since the late 1960's I'm fairly sure there will have been a worse run than the current one.

Feel free to show it then!

On the basis the last one was proven as the worst (probably just in sheer amount of games) it's fair to say that this one is actually from an opposition and results sense a worse and more concerning set of results on the whole.

It does get referenced a lot as a major reason a previous manager was sacked so it should really be considered now as a huge reason why CC should be getting removed as soon as possible.

Which is all I'm interersted in right now, not any previous managers.

[Andy74]

If you can't come up with a similar analysis of a similar run under Jim Duffy, you might be able to prove that the current run is indeed the worst ever, but as one who has been following Hibs since the late 1960's I'm fairly sure there will have been a worse run than the current one.

Actually, Jim Duffy had one poor home run where we went six games without a win.

Following beating Dunfermline 5-2 we had the following results:

St Johnstone drew 1-1
Rangers lost 3-4
Dundee Utd lost 1-3
Motherwell drew 1-1
Aberdeen drew 2-2
Kilmarnock lost 0-1

We then beat Dunfermline 1-0

Drew three, lost three.

Lost to Rangers, Dundee Utd, Killie.

So thanks, another poor manager and run of results that CC is arguably performing worse against.

[IWasThere2016]

We drew with Hearts 2-2 in April so the run hasn't lasted since February. Our last game in February was a home win and there were no home games in March.

Hughes team, on the other hand, drew with Aberdeen in early February so that definitely was a run from February.

I lost interest when I realised that it wasn't a cool-headed appraisal of the facts but a agenda-driven post designed to make Calderwood look worse / Hughes look better.

:faf:

[Moulin Yarns]

For comparison

Under Colin Calderwood we have played 34, won 9, drawn 6, lost 19 = 33 points (0.97 points per game)

Under John Hughes Played 54, won 19, drawn 12, lost 23 = 69 points (1.28 points per game) Left by mutual consent - fourth

Under Mixu played 62 won 19, drawn 18, lost 25 = 75 points (1.21 points per game) Left by mutual consent

Under John Collins played 54 won 23, drawn 15, lost 16 = 84 points (1.56 points per game) resigned Won the League Cup


Tony Mowbray played 108, won 52, drawn 16, lost 40 = 172 points (1.59 points per game) resigned - fourth

Bobby Williamson played 93, won 34, drawn 21, lost 38 = 123 points (1.32 points per game) resigned- League Cup Final

Frank Sauzee played 15, won 1, drawn 6, lost 8 = 9 points (0.6 points per game) sacked

Alex McLeish played 164, won 77, drawn, 42, lost 45 = 273 points (1.66 points per game) resigned -Third and Scottish Cup Final

Jim Duffy played 48, won 10, drawn 15, lost 23 = 45 points (0.94 points per game) sacked

Alex Miller played 453 won 158, drawn 140, lost 155 = 614 points (1.35 points per game) sacked - Third place and Won the League Cup

John Blackley played 98, won 32, drawn 18, lost 48 = 114 points (1.16 points per game)

Pat Stanton played 91, won 25, drawn 26, lost 40 = 101 points (1.11 points per game) resigned

Bertie Auld played 78, won 30, drawn 27, lost 21 = 117 points (1.50 points per game)

Willie Ormond played 31, won 14, drawn 8, lost 9 = 50 points (1.61 points per game) retired

Eddie Turnbull played 454, won 219, drawn 110, lost 125 = 767 points (1.69 points per game) sacked!!! Won the League Cup

Dave Ewing played 26, won 7, drawn 7, lost 12 = 28 points (1.08 points per game)

Willie McFarlane played 60, won 31, drawn 12, lost 17 = 105 points (1.75 points per game) resigned

Which all goes to prove, from 1970 onwards Colin Calderwood is, at the moment, the third worst manager by record. Which way it goes we will have to wait and see, but what strikes me from the above is that we have had a fair number of 'short term' managers!!

Win on Sunday and he will have moved above 1 point per game!!

[Kato]

I think everyone else seems to be getting a bit obsessed with Hughes.


No. It's you.

[Kato]

As I've said above, seems to be a few of you with the Hughes obsession!

You protest too much.

[hibsbollah]

For comparison

Under Colin Calderwood we have played 34, won 9, drawn 6, lost 19 = 33 points (0.97 points per game)

Under John Hughes Played 54, won 19, drawn 12, lost 23 = 69 points (1.28 points per game) Left by mutual consent

Under Mixu played 62 won 19, drawn 18, lost 25 = 75 points (1.21 points per game) Left by mutual consenty

Under John Collins played 54 won 23, drawn 15, lost 16 = 84 points (1.56 points per game) resigned

Tony Mowbray played 108, won 52, drawn 16, lost 40 = 172 points (1.59 points per game) resigned

Bobby Williamson played 93, won 34, drawn 21, lost 38 = 123 points (1.32 points per game) resigned

Frank Sauzee played 15, won 1, drawn 6, lost 8 = 9 points (0.6 points per game) sacked

Alex McLeish played 164, won 77, drawn, 42, lost 45 = 273 points (1.66 points per game) resigned

Jim Duffy played 48, won 10, drawn 15, lost 23 = 45 points (0.94 points per game) sacked

Alex Miller played 453 won 158, drawn 140, lost 155 = 614 points (1.35 points per game) sacked

John Blackley played 98, won 32, drawn 18, lost 48 = 114 points (1.16 points per game)

Pat Stanton played 91, won 25, drawn 26, lost 40 = 101 points (1.11 points per game) resigned

Bertie Auld played 78, won 30, drawn 27, lost 21 = 117 points (1.50 points per game)

Willie Ormond played 31, won 14, drawn 8, lost 9 = 50 points (1.61 points per game) retired

Eddie Turnbull played 454, won 219, drawn 110, lost 125 = 767 points (1.69 points per game) sacked!!!

Dave Ewing played 26, won 7, drawn 7, lost 12 = 28 points (1.08 points per game)

Willie McFarlane played 60, won 31, drawn 12, lost 17 = 105 points (1.75 points per game) resigned

Which all goes to prove, from 1970 onwards Colin Calderwood is, at the moment, the third worst manager by record. Which way it goes we will have to wait and see, but what strikes me from the above is that we have had a fair number of 'short term' managers!!

Win on Sunday and he will have moved above 1 point per game!!

We only gave the great man15 games, 69 days. A disgrace. I still think if we'd stuck with Sauzee we would gave turned the corner. We'll never know now.

[blackpoolhibs]

he's like a dug wae a bone :agree: some people just cant seem to let go, i would see his point if he was trying to defend a manager with a half-decent record but ffs gie up eh, totally monotonous now :yawn:

4th place, remind me just how many of those we have had in the last 20 years?


Silly me, i forgot 4th place is not good enough these days. :slipper:

[Beefster]

So the last home win on each occassion was February.

I think everyone else seems to be getting a bit obsessed with Hughes. Again, never mentioned him, but we are currently on a very poor run of home form and very relevant to compare it to the one that was our 'worst ever'.

Anything to say on the actual appraisal of the facts, whic is exactly what it is?

So you're counting the winless run this year as starting in February, despite the fact that we didn't actually lose any games whatsoever, home or away, in February or March?

Logical...

[Andy74]

No. It's you.

It's not, every time I criticise Calderwood or his run of results everyone else mentions Hughes.

I don't care, my focus is on Calderwood and how poor he is, if that needs a comparison to anyone, including Hughes, so be it.

If it helps you all escape how bad CC is and allows you to avoid the issue then fine if it makes you feel better.

[Andy74]

So you're counting the winless run this year as starting in February, despite the fact that we didn't actually lose any games whatsoever, home or away, in February or March?

Logical...

Well yes, that's the way it is though you would always refer to the time when you last won the home game when talking about how long it has been since your last home win.

Regardless, it's not the passage of time that's the issue but the results we have had since that home win. Any comment on that or just presentational semantics?

Plenty of people had all sorts to say about the run we had at that time.

[BSEJVT]

Just having a look again at the worst run of home games without a win that we had at the end of 09/10 season and the amount of criticism we took then.

When you look at it we played:

Aberdeen drew 2-2
St Johnstone drew 1-1
Ross County drew 2-2
Dundee United lost 2-4
Celtic lost 0-1
Rangers lost 0-1
Hearts lost 1-2
Rangers lost 0-3
Inverness drew 1-1
Hamilton drew 1-1

It lasted February to September.

Drew five games and lost five. Five games out of ten against top six teams. Three Old Firm games.

We only lost to teams of the calibre of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Dundee United.

Our current home run without a win is:

Hearts drew 2-2
Hamilton lost 1-2
St Mirren drew 1-1
St Johnsone lost 1-2
Aberdeen lost 1-3
Celtic lost 0-2
St Mirren lost 1-2

This has so far lasted February to late August.

We have drawn two games and lost five. Two games out of seven against top six. One Old Firm game.

Lost games against Hamilton, St Johnstone, Aberdeen, St Mirren and Celtic.


Okay, it's seven against ten games so far but I think I know which I'd consider to be the worst run given the opposition and balance of defeats.

Dont often agree with you but you are spot on here.

IIRC we missed penalties against one possibly both of the last 2 in Yogi's tenure when leading as well?

Whilst I have no doubt Yogi had to go in the long run, it may have at least have bought us a little time for a better more considered transition had either or both of these games been won.

CC has been an abject disaster from day one, who even if you were to exclude results, has had the effect of bringing down the morale of the Hibs support with his inane monatone drivel.

At this time the manager should be rallying the fans behind the team, I dont even listen to him anymore as he just depresses me.

[Moulin Yarns]

If we win every game up to the end of September, and Colin Calderwood is still in charge, then he will equal Yogi's points per game. OK, it probably won't work out like that, but all I'm doing is pointing out how much could change in the space of a month.

Aren't statistics wonderful :wink:

[Speedway]

Here's another comparison:

Hughes built on a 6th place Mixu side and turned it into a demoralised bunch of wage taking journeymen whilst being a slavering idiot to the press, injuring a player personally and suffering players walking out of training, squaring up to him in training, fighting in the dressing room and throwing things at him when substituted.

Calderwood had to re-start this crap and build a new side which has currently played a whopping 4 games. The new signings have yet to all feature in a single match. The players describe him as 'someone you want to play for' and he is in demand from the Championship.

Results are everything and for that he can't be defended but for the good of the future of the club, I am MUCH happier with him in charge than Hughes.

[Andy74]

Here's another comparison:

Hughes built on a 6th place Mixu side and turned it into a demoralised bunch of wage taking journeymen whilst being a slavering idiot to the press, injuring a player personally and suffering players walking out of training, squaring up to him in training, fighting in the dressing room and throwing things at him when substituted.

Calderwood had to re-start this crap and build a new side which has currently played a whopping 4 games. The new signings have yet to all feature in a single match. The players describe him as 'someone you want to play for' and he is in demand from the Championship.

Results are everything and for that he can't be defended but for the good of the future of the club, I am MUCH happier with him in charge than Hughes.

Not sure where to start with that so I won't! :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Here's another comparison:

Hughes built on a 6th place Mixu side and turned it into a demoralised bunch of wage taking journeymen whilst being a slavering idiot to the press, injuring a player personally and suffering players walking out of training, squaring up to him in training, fighting in the dressing room and throwing things at him when substituted.

Calderwood had to re-start this crap and build a new side which has currently played a whopping 4 games. The new signings have yet to all feature in a single match. The players describe him as 'someone you want to play for' and he is in demand from the Championship.

Results are everything and for that he can't be defended but for the good of the future of the club, I am MUCH happier with him in charge than Hughes.


Not sure where to start with that so I won't! :greengrin

Yogi actually took the team to 4th, Before the rot set in.

[BEEJ]

This has so far lasted February to late August.

Okay, it's seven against ten games so far but I think I know which I'd consider to be the worst run given the opposition and balance of defeats.
No. It's lasted from the beginning of April until (so far) the third week in August.


So the last home win on each occassion was February.
This year it was on the 26th of February against Inverness. In 2009/10 it was on the 6th of February against Montrose. Three weeks apart.

Remember how when you were defending Hughes so passionately last year, a few weeks made a whole lot of difference? Folks would say, "it's been crap since January" and you would correct them saying "no, mid February actually!" Boot's on the other foot now, eh? :greengrin


I think everyone else seems to be getting a bit obsessed with Hughes. Again, never mentioned him, but we are currently on a very poor run of home form and very relevant to compare it to the one that was our 'worst ever'.
:tee hee: You're seriously in denial.


Anything to say on the actual appraisal of the facts, whic is exactly what it is?
Your 'facts' are incorrect as demonstrated above.


It's not, every time I criticise Calderwood or his run of results everyone else mentions Hughes.

I don't care, my focus is on Calderwood and how poor he is, if that needs a comparison to anyone, including Hughes, so be it.

If it helps you all escape how bad CC is and allows you to avoid the issue then fine if it makes you feel better.
Just possibly because you always mention Yogi in the same breath as criticising CC. :greengrin You can't appear to do the one without the other. Your sense of outrage and injustice is still as strong almost a year on.


Regardless, it's not the passage of time that's the issue but the results we have had since that home win. Any comment on that or just presentational semantics?
Funny how folk drift from 'facts' to 'semantics' as they start to lose the argument.

Andy, I thought you said on another post you were going to give this up? :wink:

[R'Albin]

Here's another comparison:

Hughes built on a 6th place Mixu side and turned it into a demoralised bunch of wage taking journeymen whilst being a slavering idiot to the press, injuring a player personally and suffering players walking out of training, squaring up to him in training, fighting in the dressing room and throwing things at him when substituted.

Calderwood had to re-start this crap and build a new side which has currently played a whopping 4 games. The new signings have yet to all feature in a single match. The players describe him as 'someone you want to play for' and he is in demand from the Championship.

Results are everything and for that he can't be defended but for the good of the future of the club, I am MUCH happier with him in charge than Hughes.

:top marks

[IWasThere2016]

Top post Speedway! :thumbsup:

[Stevie Reid]

Here's another comparison:

Hughes built on a 6th place Mixu side and turned it into a demoralised bunch of wage taking journeymen whilst being a slavering idiot to the press, injuring a player personally and suffering players walking out of training, squaring up to him in training, fighting in the dressing room and throwing things at him when substituted.

Calderwood had to re-start this crap and build a new side which has currently played a whopping 4 games. The new signings have yet to all feature in a single match. The players describe him as 'someone you want to play for' and he is in demand from the Championship.

Results are everything and for that he can't be defended but for the good of the future of the club, I am MUCH happier with him in charge than Hughes.

1) There is absolutely no evidence of that when the players are on the pitch, sadly. Pat McGinlay said something similar about Jim Duffy, and ran to the dugout to celebrate with Duffy when he scored the equaliser in the 2-2 draw at Tynie in the NY game in 1998. What happened there? If the players are happier under Calderwood than Hughes, it certainly isn't showing in ANY tangible way from a supporters' point of view.

2) How is the fact that he was/is wanted as assistant manager at a couple of Championship clubs in any way a positive for Hibs?

3) Are you really? I'm even more miserable than I was - just like I was finally more depressed with Mixu than I was with Collins, and finally more depressed with Hughes than I was with Mixu.

Never mind comparisons with Hughes, Mixu or Collins though - Calderwood is on track to be out on his own as the worst Hibs manager of all time very soon.

[Andy74]

No. It's lasted from the beginning of April until (so far) the third week in August.


This year it was on the 26th of February against Inverness. In 2009/10 it was on the 6th of February against Montrose. Three weeks apart.

Remember how when you were defending Hughes so passionately last year, a few weeks made a whole lot of difference? Folks would say, "it's been crap since January" and you would correct them saying "no, mid February actually!" Boot's on the other foot now, eh? :greengrin


:tee hee: You're seriously in denial.


Your 'facts' are incorrect as demonstrated above.


Just possibly because you always mention Yogi in the same breath as criticising CC. :greengrin You can't appear to do the one without the other. Your sense of outrage and injustice is still as strong almost a year on.


Funny how folk drift from 'facts' to 'semantics' as they start to lose the argument.

Andy, I thought you said on another post you were going to give this up? :wink:

Sorry, but what facts are incorrect?

Just read the results I listed, they are the key. And on each occassion, not that it matters, the last game we won was during February. As I said.

I think you should also read again about where I mention Hughes- nowhere. It's you lot who keep brining him up a ssome sort of defence of Calderwood. I'm worried about how bad he is now, nothing to do with anyone else.

So what argument is it I'm losing as the results above clearly show we have perfomed worse than the one that will probably go down as the worst in our history, but only due to the numbner of games it lasted. Already this one is worse in terms of the proportion of games we have lost and the type of teams we hagve lost to.

You keep arguing about Hughes if you like or in the number or when you count a bad run from, but you aren't addressing the results or the general point being made.

I guess becaue it is pretty indefensible.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just having a look again at the worst run of home games without a win that we had at the end of 09/10 season and the amount of criticism we took then.

When you look at it we played:

Aberdeen drew 2-2
St Johnstone drew 1-1
KILMARNOCK HOME 6TH MARCH WON 2-1
Ross County drew 2-2
Dundee United lost 2-4
Celtic lost 0-1
Rangers lost 0-1
Hearts lost 1-2
Rangers lost 0-3
Inverness drew 1-1
Hamilton drew 1-1

It lasted February to September.

Drew five games and lost five. Five games out of ten against top six teams. Three Old Firm games.

We only lost to teams of the calibre of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Dundee United.

Our current home run without a win is:

Hearts drew 2-2
Hamilton lost 1-2
St Mirren drew 1-1
St Johnsone lost 1-2
Aberdeen lost 1-3
Celtic lost 0-2
Inverness Caley Thistle WON AWAY 1-0
St Mirren lost 1-2

This has so far lasted February to late August.

We have drawn two games and lost five. Two games out of seven against top six. One Old Firm game.

Lost games against Hamilton, St Johnstone, Aberdeen, St Mirren and Celtic.


Okay, it's seven against ten games so far but I think I know which I'd consider to be the worst run given the opposition and balance of defeats.

Comparing 10 games, that included 3 against the old firm to 7 games which includes only one against the old firm is, in my opinion selective. You are forgetting the changes in personnel between the two selective groups of games. As I've said elsewhere, statistics are great, because they prove the square root of nothing.


Sorry, but what facts are incorrect?

Just read the results I listed, they are the key. And on each occassion, not that it matters, the last game we won was during February. As I said.

I think you should also read again about where I mention Hughes- nowhere. It's you lot who keep brining him up a ssome sort of defence of Calderwood. I'm worried about how bad he is now, nothing to do with anyone else.

So what argument is it I'm losing as the results above clearly show we have perfomed worse than the one that will probably go down as the worst in our history, but only due to the numbner of games it lasted. Already this one is worse in terms of the proportion of games we have lost and the type of teams we hagve lost to.

You keep arguing about Hughes if you like or in the number or when you count a bad run from, but you aren't addressing the results or the general point being made.

I guess becaue it is pretty indefensible.

One fact you have managed to get wrong, our last win was on July 30th (inserted in your lists above), not in February. OK it was away from home and you are selectively only looking at home games. Selectivity can really muddy the waters, IMHO of course. Also the list for the current run starts on the 3rd of April, not February. Another 'fact' that is wrong concerning your lists, ALSO INSERTED IN YOUR LIST. so feel free to apologise to everybody you have disagreed with on this thread.

I realise this possibly aids your argument, depending on how you read it, but I don't care, you quote facts, which are in fact wrong. FACT.

Never mind, we are Hibs supporters, and we want the best for our club, regardless of whether the manager is Collins, Mixu, Hughes, or Calderwood, just so long as it isn't Jim Duffy (see my comparison, which stands up as FACT) I will support CC until he leaves, whenever that may be.

[Andy74]

Comparing 10 games, that included 3 against the old firm to 7 games which includes only one against the old firm is, in my opinion selective. You are forgetting the changes in personnel between the two selective groups of games. As I've said elsewhere, statistics are great, because they prove the square root of nothing.



One fact you have managed to get wrong, our last win was on July 30th (inserted in your lists above), not in February. OK it was away from home and you are selectively only looking at home games. Selectivity can really muddy the waters, IMHO of course. Also the list for the current run starts on the 3rd of April, not February. Another 'fact' that is wrong concerning your lists, ALSO INSERTED IN YOUR LIST. so feel free to apologise to everybody you have disagreed with on this thread.

I realise this possibly aids your argument, depending on how you read it, but I don't care, you quote facts, which are in fact wrong. FACT.

Never mind, we are Hibs supporters, and we want the best for our club, regardless of whether the manager is Collins, Mixu, Hughes, or Calderwood, just so long as it isn't Jim Duffy (see my comparison, which stands up as FACT) I will support CC until he leaves, whenever that may be.

You are missing the point of the thread which was about our home form so I've looked at the home form in those periods.

So, can I get your apology now then? :wink:

The fact there were more Old Firm games etc is exactly my point - we were slated for that run and it was far more difficult than the run we are in now which has seen us lose to teams of a lesser calibre.


So, I'm not selecting anyhting or playing with dates, they are simply the home games we played between the previous home wins on each of these runs.

[Moulin Yarns]

You are missing the point of the thread which was about our home form so I've looked at the home form in those periods.

So, can I get your apology now then? :wink:

The fact there were more Old Firm games etc is exactly my point - we were slated for that run and it was far more difficult than the run we are in now which has seen us lose to teams of a lesser calibre.


So, I'm not selecting anyhting or playing with dates, they are simply the home games we played between the previous home wins on each of
these runs.

But Andy, you got your facts wrong. Your first list was missing a home win against Killie. so your winless home run starts on the 13th of March, and not in February as you are so adamant about. And the second list starts on the 3rd of April. Your assertion that these runs start in February is patently wrong.

I said I was probably aiding your argument, but there is no denying that you got your facts wrong in the first place. If you need to quote statistics, at least check they are right before you submit your post.

I am confident that the winless run will end. I just haven't got a clue when! :wink:

[steakbake]

Both records are woeful and in normal circumstances, should see the managers binned. Doesn't in my view, mean Calderwood is any worse or better than Hughes. Both have an unacceptable record. Not sure what the OP is getting at at all.

[silverhibee]

Its totally irrelevant. Its like asking if you prefer standing on an upturned plug barefoot or being booted square in the baws.


:tee hee:

[Moulin Yarns]

to make it easier to read, Andy's original statistics since the last home win reads like this:




Played


Won


Drawn


Lost


For


Against


Goal Difference


Points




season 2010/11


8



3


5


7


15


-8


3




season 2011/12


7



2


5


7


14


-7


2






So, to be perfectly honest, not a lot in it, and if we lose tonight, the argument holds true. :boo hoo:

However, win tonight and we have to start all over again with the moans :greengrin

[Beefster]

Its totally irrelevant. Its like asking if you prefer standing on an upturned plug barefoot or being booted square in the baws.

Having stood on plenty of plugs but only taken one monumental boot in the baws in my entire life, it's the horror of the boot in the baws that makes me wake up in the middle of the night in sweats.

The barefooted plug stomp every time.

[Broken Gnome]

Andy, just because you've got a new policy of being ever so careful of not saying HIS name doesn't mean you haven't done it countless times of late. And not exactly a convincing argument adopting a 'ha, you said his name first!' defence when your post is so glaringly Hughes based. If I referred to a big useless galoot of a footballer with a face only a retiring plastic surgeon could love to secure one last challenging achievement of their career without mentioning Kevin Kyle's name, everyone would still know I was talking about Kevin Kyle.

[KeithTheHibby]

For comparison

Under Colin Calderwood we have played 34, won 9, drawn 6, lost 19 = 33 points (0.97 points per game)

Under John Hughes Played 54, won 19, drawn 12, lost 23 = 69 points (1.28 points per game) Left by mutual consent - fourth

Under Mixu played 62 won 19, drawn 18, lost 25 = 75 points (1.21 points per game) Left by mutual consent

Under John Collins played 54 won 23, drawn 15, lost 16 = 84 points (1.56 points per game) resigned Won the League Cup


Tony Mowbray played 108, won 52, drawn 16, lost 40 = 172 points (1.59 points per game) resigned - fourth

Bobby Williamson played 93, won 34, drawn 21, lost 38 = 123 points (1.32 points per game) resigned- League Cup Final

Frank Sauzee played 15, won 1, drawn 6, lost 8 = 9 points (0.6 points per game) sacked

Alex McLeish played 164, won 77, drawn, 42, lost 45 = 273 points (1.66 points per game) resigned -Third and Scottish Cup Final

Jim Duffy played 48, won 10, drawn 15, lost 23 = 45 points (0.94 points per game) sacked

Alex Miller played 453 won 158, drawn 140, lost 155 = 614 points (1.35 points per game) sacked - Third place and Won the League Cup

John Blackley played 98, won 32, drawn 18, lost 48 = 114 points (1.16 points per game)

Pat Stanton played 91, won 25, drawn 26, lost 40 = 101 points (1.11 points per game) resigned

Bertie Auld played 78, won 30, drawn 27, lost 21 = 117 points (1.50 points per game)

Willie Ormond played 31, won 14, drawn 8, lost 9 = 50 points (1.61 points per game) retired

Eddie Turnbull played 454, won 219, drawn 110, lost 125 = 767 points (1.69 points per game) sacked!!! Won the League Cup

Dave Ewing played 26, won 7, drawn 7, lost 12 = 28 points (1.08 points per game)

Willie McFarlane played 60, won 31, drawn 12, lost 17 = 105 points (1.75 points per game) resigned

Which all goes to prove, from 1970 onwards Colin Calderwood is, at the moment, the third worst manager by record. Which way it goes we will have to wait and see, but what strikes me from the above is that we have had a fair number of 'short term' managers!!

Win on Sunday and he will have moved above 1 point per game!!


Off on a tangent here however those stats are a real eye opener for those who thought John Collins was pish...

[Moulin Yarns]

Off on a tangent here however those stats are a real eye opener for those who thought John Collins was pish...

It makes you think, what if the players hadn't thrown the toys out of the pram where we might be now?

[Stevie Reid]

It makes you think, what if the players hadn't thrown the toys out of the pram where we might be now?

An incident that I still can't rationalise, even now - we've just won a cup and are in the semi finals of the SC against the SPL relegation certainties, and the players decide to raise a grievance about the management?

That incident more than any other, has defined our last 4 years as a football club IMO. Massive wasted opportunity by spoilt prima donnas.

[BEEJ]

Sorry, but what facts are incorrect?

Just read the results I listed, they are the key. And on each occassion, not that it matters, the last game we won was during February. As I said.

I think you should also read again about where I mention Hughes- nowhere. It's you lot who keep brining him up a ssome sort of defence of Calderwood. I'm worried about how bad he is now, nothing to do with anyone else.

So what argument is it I'm losing as the results above clearly show we have perfomed worse than the one that will probably go down as the worst in our history, but only due to the numbner of games it lasted. Already this one is worse in terms of the proportion of games we have lost and the type of teams we hagve lost to.

You keep arguing about Hughes if you like or in the number or when you count a bad run from, but you aren't addressing the results or the general point being made.

I guess becaue it is pretty indefensible.
On the contrary; you keep bringing up comparisons with Hughes record. :greengrin

To be absolutely clear - YET AGAIN - I'm not trying to defend CC's record. It's utterly appalling.

But your fixation with his predecessor and your connected argument that we (the supporters, that is) should never have got rid of Hughes is simply ludicrous. Firstly it was RP that decided he'd seen enough and that Hughes should go. Secondly there was much more to Yogi's 'legacy' than simply a run of poor results.

Each attempt of yours to make this argument seems increasingly desperate. Now you're manipulating your presentation of the data - something you were (rightly) highly critical of last year when folks were banging on about Hughes' poor record as Manager.

[Moulin Yarns]

On the contrary; you keep bringing up comparisons with Hughes record. :greengrin

To be absolutely clear - YET AGAIN - I'm not trying to defend CC's record. It's utterly appalling.

But your fixation with his predecessor and your connected argument that we (the supporters, that is) should never have got rid of Hughes is simply ludicrous. Firstly it was RP that decided he'd seen enough and that Hughes should go. Secondly there was much more to Yogi's 'legacy' than simply a run of poor results.

Each attempt of yours to make this argument seems increasingly desperate. Now you're manipulating your presentation of the data - something you were (rightly) highly critical of last year when folks were banging on about Hughes' poor record as Manager.


to make it easier to read, Andy's original statistics since the last home win reads like this:




Played


Won


Drawn


Lost


For


Against


Goal Difference


Points




season 2010/11


8



3


5


7


15


-8


3




season 2011/12


7



2


5


7


14


-7


2







So, to be perfectly honest, not a lot in it, and if we lose tonight, the argument holds true. :boo hoo:

However, win tonight and we have to start all over again with the moans :greengrin

I think I put the manipulation to bed with this table which is all home results after the win aginst Kilmarnock on the 6th March in the 09/10 and the win against Bohemians on 21st March in the 10/11 season

[jacomo]

Just having a look again at the worst run of home games without a win that we had at the end of 09/10 season and the amount of criticism we took then.

When you look at it we played:

Aberdeen drew 2-2
St Johnstone drew 1-1
Ross County drew 2-2
Dundee United lost 2-4
Celtic lost 0-1
Rangers lost 0-1
Hearts lost 1-2
Rangers lost 0-3
Inverness drew 1-1
Hamilton drew 1-1

It lasted February to September.

Drew five games and lost five. Five games out of ten against top six teams. Three Old Firm games.

We only lost to teams of the calibre of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Dundee United.

Our current home run without a win is:

Hearts drew 2-2
Hamilton lost 1-2
St Mirren drew 1-1
St Johnsone lost 1-2
Aberdeen lost 1-3
Celtic lost 0-2
St Mirren lost 1-2

This has so far lasted February to late August.

We have drawn two games and lost five. Two games out of seven against top six. One Old Firm game.

Lost games against Hamilton, St Johnstone, Aberdeen, St Mirren and Celtic.


Okay, it's seven against ten games so far but I think I know which I'd consider to be the worst run given the opposition and balance of defeats.

Yeah, I think Yogi definitely deserves more time.

[jacomo]

An incident that I still can't rationalise, even now - we've just won a cup and are in the semi finals of the SC against the SPL relegation certainties, and the players decide to raise a grievance about the management?

That incident more than any other, has defined our last 4 years as a football club IMO. Massive wasted opportunity by spoilt prima donnas.

:agree:

But I also think Collins might have been too uncompromising.

It's a fact of life that win a club without much recent success wins the League Cup, subsequent performances drop off. I don't know why, but look at Birmingham last season (won Carling Cup and then relegated) or Spurs a few years ago (don't think they won another league game after winning the Carling).

After the CIS, our squad (with no culture of winning, remember) probably felt somehow entitled to take things easy. JC, I imagine, would have been infuriated by this lack of professionalism.

All speculation, but that might have been the catalyst for the trouble.

[IWasThere2016]

Yeah, I think Yogi definitely deserves more time.

:faf:

[KeithTheHibby]

An incident that I still can't rationalise, even now - we've just won a cup and are in the semi finals of the SC against the SPL relegation certainties, and the players decide to raise a grievance about the management?

That incident more than any other, has defined our last 4 years as a football club IMO. Massive wasted opportunity by spoilt prima donnas.


Very good point.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah, I think Yogi definitely deserves more time.

Aye, but imagine how great we would have been if Jim Duffy had been given the time he deserved :wink:

[Stevie Reid]

:agree:

But I also think Collins might have been too uncompromising.

It's a fact of life that win a club without much recent success wins the League Cup, subsequent performances drop off. I don't know why, but look at Birmingham last season (won Carling Cup and then relegated) or Spurs a few years ago (don't think they won another league game after winning the Carling).

After the CIS, our squad (with no culture of winning, remember) probably felt somehow entitled to take things easy. JC, I imagine, would have been infuriated by this lack of professionalism.

All speculation, but that might have been the catalyst for the trouble.

I've no doubt he was, that seemed to be the crux of the players' complaints IIRC, that training was monotonous and repetitive, and JC didn't listen to the players pleas to make things more interesting. Now JC's man management skills may well have been lacking, but when a player who had achieved what he has as a player then becomes a manager and guides the team to a trophy and every player's first medal within months of taking over, surely you should have belief in his methods and continue to do what he says.

I seem to recall Simon Brown (who had a cheek to complain about anything) greeting because the players weren't allowed a beer when they were away training in the sunshine somewhere (Spain?) during the season - truly unbelievable.

[Andy74]

to make it easier to read, Andy's original statistics since the last home win reads like this:




Played


Won


Drawn


Lost


For


Against


Goal Difference


Points




season 2010/11


8



3


5


7


15


-8


3




season 2011/12


7



2


5


7


14


-7


2






So, to be perfectly honest, not a lot in it, and if we lose tonight, the argument holds true. :boo hoo:

However, win tonight and we have to start all over again with the moans :greengrin

My point was the types of teams we played in each run and the amount of losses and who they were against which the table doesn't show.

It shows that Calderwood is showing home form that should be getting him the sack.

[Moulin Yarns]

My point was the types of teams we played in each run and the amount of losses and who they were against which the table doesn't show.

It shows that Calderwood is showing home form that should be getting him the sack.

Did he not make it plain that the last 5 games were going to be used to experiment though? So a bit difficult to use them for comparison.

I would also say every game is worth 3 points, whether it is against Berwick Rangers or Barcelona and we should be trying to win every one of them.

[Andy74]

But Andy, you got your facts wrong. Your first list was missing a home win against Killie. so your winless home run starts on the 13th of March, and not in February as you are so adamant about. And the second list starts on the 3rd of April. Your assertion that these runs start in February is patently wrong.

I said I was probably aiding your argument, but there is no denying that you got your facts wrong in the first place. If you need to quote statistics, at least check they are right before you submit your post.

I am confident that the winless run will end. I just haven't got a clue when! :wink:

Have you ever heard anyone talking about the first game which wasn't won being the measure of a run? You would refer to the last home win which in our current case seems to have been late February. The fact we didn't play in March at home or whatever is neither here nor there.

And if I missed a win in between the first list then fair enough, just makes it look a lot worse currently then.

That would mean that previous run was only 8 games, losing 5 and drawing 3. Losing to Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United and Hearts. Last game won on 6 March. 5 of the 8 games against top six teams, three Old Firm games and a derby.

Current run of 7 games, losing 5 and drawing 2. 2 games against top six teams including a derby. Losing to Hamilton, St Johnstone, Aberdeen and St Mirren. Last home game won on 26 February.

Couldn't care who any previous managers are, that for me is the most miserable run we have produced and is sacking form.

[Moulin Yarns]

Have you ever heard anyone talking about the first game which wasn't won being the measure of a run? You would refer to the last home win which in our current case seems to have been late February. The fact we didn't play in March at home or whatever is neither here nor there.

And if I missed a win in between the first list then fair enough, just makes it look a lot worse currently then.

That would mean that previous run was only 8 games, losing 5 and drawing 3. Losing to Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United and Hearts. Last game won on 6 March. 5 of the 8 games against top six teams, three Old Firm games and a derby.

Current run of 7 games, losing 5 and drawing 2. 2 games against top six teams including a derby. Losing to Hamilton, St Johnstone, Aberdeen and St Mirren. Last home game won on 26 February.

Couldn't care who any previous managers are, that for me is the most miserable run we have produced and is sacking form.

Does it? a hell of a lot better comparison 8 to 7 rather than 10 to 7, and 1 point and 1 goal worse is "not a lot worse" the way I see it, in fact a win tonight and Calderwood will have a better record in his last 8 home games. (5 points as opposed to 3, and better goal difference too).

Everything is hunkydorey then :greengrin until we go on another run of seven home games without a win again.

[swazzie]

Here's another set of 8 consecutive home matches.

LOST 9 December 1989 v Crystal Palace 1 – 2
LOST 16 December 1989 Tottenham Hotspur 0 – 1
DREW 1 January 1990 Queens Park Rangers H 0 – 0
DREW 13 January 1990 Derby County H 1 – 2
DREW 3 February 1990 Manchester City H 1 – 1
WON 4 March 1990 Luton Town H 4 – 1
DREW 14 March 1990 Everton 0 – 0
LOST 18 March 1990 Liverpool 1 – 2

That's P 8 W 1 D 3 L 4

As you've probably guessed that's Man U's record from Season 89/90. Of course it's not a serious comparison of Sir Alex to Colin Calderwood but the underlying point is that a manager needs a long time, and by that I mean several seasons, to build a successful team.

If that means sucking up some pretty hideous results in the short term then so be it. I'm tired of the constant revolving door of players and managers at ER. We've tried it, it doesn't work and there is no quick fix. Why not try a different approach, display some patience and faith for once and see where that gets us. Can it really be any worse that what we've endured in recent times?


PS we're bound to lose tonight now and this post will end up looking really stoopid/even more stoopid :greengrin

[Stevie Reid]

Here's another set of 8 consecutive home matches.

LOST 9 December 1989 v Crystal Palace 1 – 2
LOST 16 December 1989 Tottenham Hotspur 0 – 1
DREW 1 January 1990 Queens Park Rangers H 0 – 0
DREW 13 January 1990 Derby County H 1 – 2
DREW 3 February 1990 Manchester City H 1 – 1
WON 4 March 1990 Luton Town H 4 – 1
DREW 14 March 1990 Everton 0 – 0
LOST 18 March 1990 Liverpool 1 – 2

That's P 8 W 1 D 3 L 4

As you've probably guessed that's Man U's record from Season 89/90. Of course it's not a serious comparison of Sir Alex to Colin Calderwood but the underlying point is that a manager needs a long time, and by that I mean several seasons, to build a successful team.

If that means sucking up some pretty hideous results in the short term then so be it. I'm tired of the constant revolving door of players and managers at ER. We've tried it, it doesn't work and there is no quick fix. Why not try a different approach, display some patience and faith for once and see where that gets us. Can it really be any worse that what we've endured in recent times?


PS we're bound to lose tonight now and this post will end up looking really stoopid/even more stoopid :greengrin

Whilst Sir Alex is a great example of what can happen when a manager is given time, it should also be noted that Man Utd finished 2nd in the league in his first full season in charge.

[WindyMiller]

Off on a tangent here however those stats are a real eye opener for those who thought John Collins was pish...

Or for those that thought St Tony was the best thing since sliced bread.

[WindyMiller]

Whilst Sir Alex is a great example of what can happen when a manager is given time, it should also be noted that Man Utd finished 2nd in the league in his first full season in charge.

But surely he did that with someone else's team.

:aok: