Attractive passing football - is it really so far out of our grasp??

[lyonhibs]

I was just thinking - in the aftermath of the Yams being shafted by a team full of players who moved off the ball, don't have the 1st touch of a baby elephant and passed to their team-mates, quickly and accurately - that the fundamentals required to acheive that style of football really shouldn't be beyond any professional team, yet alone one with pretences to challenging for a UEFA Cup spot this season.

If you think about it, the great passing teams don't do silly back-heels, multiple step-overs etc - the exact opposite in fact. Don't get me wrong, I would never expect Hibs to perform in even the same stratosphere of Barca or even Spurs, but surely engendering an ethos in the club of not treating the ball like a hot tattie, running into space and having confidence in yourself and your team-mates shouldn't be impossible.

I think it's predominately a mentality thing - hump it long, keep it away from our half and challenge at set pieces seems to be the "Scottish way" - which leads to the annuual clamour for us to sign players who "know the Scottish game" - which is code for "big, physical but technically deficient cloggers".

Maybe I'm over-simplifying things, but instead of purely gawping in awe at teams like Barca etc, is it totally unrealistic to want Hibs and other SPL teams to at least try to commit to the basic principles that make such teams such a pleasure to watch??

[linlithgowhibbie]

unfortunately the answer is YES

[hibee]

It would need to be a new rule that every team played that way or we would just get kicked off the park ! The SPL needs to do something fast to stop the number of fans being lost each year though.

[500miles]

Let's not get all hot and bothered about Spurs tonight. Tottenham are undeniably a good team, but Hearts were atrocious. I mean embarrassingly bad. Zaliukas is a guy that i would take at Hibs, but the first goal....dear oh dear...... and it just got worse. Driver is not fit....Mrowiec...

If they play like that against us, I would be looking for a clear and decisive victory as well.

[At The Edge]

Posted by Lyonhibs

I think it's predominately a mentality thing - hump it long, keep it away from our half and challenge at set pieces seems to be the "Scottish way" - which leads to the annuual clamour for us to sign players who "know the Scottish game" - which is code for "big, physical but technically deficient cloggers".


funnily enough i was talking to a Hearts supporting mate at work who said that our signings would struggle because they weren't SPL players! i.e hooof it long etc etc and they would do ok because they had brought in the huddies from other SPL teams.

Tonight showed yet again even though the SPL is all kick and rush and get in your face type play, teams who have the basic skills of passing and moving off the ball, will mostly come out on top easily.
Scottish teams are years behind most other Euro countries in terms of skillful football with intelligent play

[stoneyburn hibs]

watching spurs tonight ,englands 5th best team last season it was frightening to see the gulf in class between the spl and the epl, about half their first team against the yams and cruising it, ugly sisters would have faired no better tonight, scottish teams are donkeys behind , unfortunately money talks as per development, and we can only dream

[Loopz]

watching spurs tonight ,englands 5th best team last season it was frightening to see the gulf in class between the spl and the epl, about half their first team against the yams and cruising it, ugly sisters would have faired no better tonight, scottish teams are donkeys behind , unfortunately money talks as per development, and we can only dream

Whilst I agree with your post regards the gulf SH, I don't agree that all we can do is dream. We can start teaching our kids technical ability, control, to pass the ball and the importance of a healthy lifestyle. This does not take alot of investment. We can also start teaching them that winning the cup at 12 year old is not really that important and if we sacrifice the winning at all costs mentality for the progression of our youngsters we just might get somewhere. Sadly as tonight demonsterated we have a very long way to go.

[Don Giovanni]

I wouldn't worry about it Lyon. There is nothing in Calderwoods previous positions, nor indeed his present tenure, to suggest that we will be playing attractive, passing football any time soon.

He may yet make us competitive (that is the least I hope for) but it could be a while yet before we return to being an entertaining side im afraid...

[Biggie]

watching spurs tonight ,englands 5th best team last season it was frightening to see the gulf in class between the spl and the epl, about half their first team against the yams and cruising it, ugly sisters would have faired no better tonight, scottish teams are donkeys behind , unfortunately money talks as per development, and we can only dream

what he said....tonights results show scottish football is on it's knees...the standard (across the board) is brutal and the sooner we move away from this "get intae them" mentality and try and pass and move, we'll get no-where.......

[madabouthibs]

Surely it can't be that hard to teach a guy about off the ball movement, on the pitch comraderie, awareness, very basic ball control and simple one or two touch passing?
The rest comes naturally, with regards to actual football ability and skill, kicking the ball, and running with it.

Fitness and stamina is an issue in Scotland in my opinion. SPL players just don't seem to take it seriously enough. They seem to be happy enough to simply get by.
Pish. :rolleyes:
One of the Spurs players said after the game they'd been working on their quick passing all week. It showed. :agree:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The ease with which it is possible to see this standard of football regularly on the tellybox is another in the long list of reasons for some people to no longer pay to watch the drivel we are consistently subjected to. People have had the wool pulled over their eyes for too long, time for those in charge to realise the numbers they can take for granted are dropping.

[Baw187]

The reason we don't see teams playing the passing game often in the SPL is that the quality of player is no where good enough to sustain it. They can try it up to a point but eventually a pass will go astray and the other team nicks the ball and scores - a situation SPL fans have no patience for.

Look at the amount of times Spurs played it out of their box under pressure without resorting to hoofing it. They could do it because they have quality players. Imagine messrs Hanlon, Booth, Palson, and Stephens doing that !! They'd leak even more goals than they already do.

In fariness, only the EPL teams are good enough in the UK to do this as you see more SPL-esque route one football in the other leagues (even the Championship).

The Europeam teams get away with it more because their refs blow if a player so much as sticks a toe in to tackle a player so they are under less pressure on the ball. Another reason we do keek in europe with European refs.

[madabouthibs]

Thats all very well and good, and i totally agree, but this is just simple passing and controlling of a football.
I can't believe these guys make it in the game when they don't have enough ability to hit a swift pass, or control a fast moving football. It really irks me that most SPL players find it difficult even to just clear the first defender when they cross a ball into the box! :rolleyes:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Whilst I agree with your post regards the gulf SH, I don't agree that all we can do is dream. We can start teaching our kids technical ability, control, to pass the ball and the importance of a healthy lifestyle. This does not take alot of investment. We can also start teaching them that winning the cup at 12 year old is not really that important and if we sacrifice the winning at all costs mentality for the progression of our youngsters we just might get somewhere. Sadly as tonight demonsterated we have a very long way to go.

Grates me because time and again over the past 10 maybe even 20 years, people concerned with football in scotland in a position to do something about it talk the talk , see what we need to be doing and how to go about it , but here we are no further forward

[Mon Dieu4]

I was just thinking - in the aftermath of the Yams being shafted by a team full of players who moved off the ball, don't have the 1st touch of a baby elephant and passed to their team-mates, quickly and accurately - that the fundamentals required to acheive that style of football really shouldn't be beyond any professional team, yet alone one with pretences to challenging for a UEFA Cup spot this season.

If you think about it, the great passing teams don't do silly back-heels, multiple step-overs etc - the exact opposite in fact. Don't get me wrong, I would never expect Hibs to perform in even the same stratosphere of Barca or even Spurs, but surely engendering an ethos in the club of not treating the ball like a hot tattie, running into space and having confidence in yourself and your team-mates shouldn't be impossible.

I think it's predominately a mentality thing - hump it long, keep it away from our half and challenge at set pieces seems to be the "Scottish way" - which leads to the annuual clamour for us to sign players who "know the Scottish game" - which is code for "big, physical but technically deficient cloggers".

Maybe I'm over-simplifying things, but instead of purely gawping in awe at teams like Barca etc, is it totally unrealistic to want Hibs and other SPL teams to at least try to commit to the basic principles that make such teams such a pleasure to watch??

Take it you never saw Pique's inch perfect back heel to set up Barcas goal the other night? :not worth

[bob12345]

The thing that gets to me is throw any SPL player into a game of 5s with us, and we would be in awe of their touch, skill, striking technique. Yet for reasons mentioned above, it never shows in the SPL.

[down the slope]

The OP asked if attractive passing football is out of our grasp and it had me thinking of when we last did that and i could not come up with a game since maybe the LC final. This is shocking and from what i've seen it's going to happen no time soon , in fact when was the last time we even played like Kilmarnock did on Sunday ?.

[heretoday]

Good thread. I often think the same. Is it completely beyond the wit of our professional footballers to pass and move like that?

Maybe it stems from the top. The Old Firm don't play like that, so the rest of us don't either.

And survival is the name of the game.

[lyonhibs]

The OP asked if attractive passing football is out of our grasp and it had me thinking of when we last did that and i could not come up with a game since maybe the LC final. This is shocking and from what i've seen it's going to happen no time soon , in fact when was the last time we even played like Kilmarnock did on Sunday ?.

This is exactly my point. Whilst Barca et al are a pipe dream, Kimarnock passed and moved with an accuracy and speed that we've not seen at Hibs since perhaps we thrashed Hamilton (??) under Hughes at ER.

Passing the ball accurately to people wearing the same colour shirt as you, running away from your marker into some of that green stuff called "space" and being able to control a ball should not be beyond Hibs, and yet we've become so used to the absolute tripe that Hibs and some other SPL teams serve up, that whenever we see a team master the basics of attacking football, be it on the tellybox or - as you say - live in the SPL (rare though that is) we all go "wow, what an incredible performance"............

[Craig_in_Prague]

We had it under Mowbray and McLeish, although in different ways.
TM's side was energetic, full of young players he had them believing in themselves. However all were technically pretty good and we played great attacking football. Whilst McLeish had a more experience side and some of the football we played was brilliant, the 6-2 game in particular, was quite a performance.
Under Collins as well we had some fine displays. 1-0 win at Ibrox where Rangers could hardly get the ball of us, we matched Celtic at ER football wise and the Qtr final against Hearts in the league cup, was another stand out.

So we've not been served too much guff over the last 10 years or so....... But i totally agree with the posts on here and would like to see passing and move something we should become to expect from professional footballers.

Starts from youth coaching though IMO, did we not ditch 11-a-sides in favour of 7's, like the Dutch do? Players will get more on the ball and develop better from it, rather than wee laddies running about big park and hoofing the ball around. Certainly think this is part of the root cause issue's in our country... facilities and so on too, we're years behind other countries.
Football was more laboured in the 70s + 80s and the Scottish style seen us do alright, however we've been left behind and we're not getting any closer it seems.

[alfie]

Maybe we need the PE teacher from Gregory's Girl to give our players a lesson. He seemed to understand how to control a ball. :dunno:

[jdships]

The reason we don't see teams playing the passing game often in the SPL is that the quality of player is no where good enough to sustain it. They can try it up to a point but eventually a pass will go astray and the other team nicks the ball and scores - a situation SPL fans have no patience for.

Look at the amount of times Spurs played it out of their box under pressure without resorting to hoofing it. They could do it because they have quality players. Imagine messrs Hanlon, Booth, Palson, and Stephens doing that !! They'd leak even more goals than they already do.

In fariness, only the EPL teams are good enough in the UK to do this as you see more SPL-esque route one football in the other leagues (even the Championship).

The Europeam teams get away with it more because their refs blow if a player so much as sticks a toe in to tackle a player so they are under less pressure on the ball. Another reason we do keek in europe with European refs.


Agree totally with what you write above.
Watched last nights game on TV and from the outset was impressed by four things about 'Spurs .
Players ability to control the ball with one touch
Making/using space.
Running off the ball .
and lastly and probably the most important
AWARENESS of what was going on around them.

This may sound a bit OTT and probably has to be tempered with the fact Hearts were poor beyond belief but at the same time it was a joy to watch.
How do we , in SPL , emulate this display ?
Not quite sure TBH as the basic talent has to be there which can be worked with and developed The question again has to be are there youngsters out there prepared to work and commit themselves ?:rolleyes:.
Will be interesting to see what Mr Doncaster and " Harry Potter" have to say in the coming days :greengrin


:flag:

[down the slope]

Agree totally with what you write above.
Watched last nights game on TV and from the outset was impressed by four things about 'Spurs .
Players ability to control the ball with one touch
Making/using space.
Running off the ball .
and lastly and probably the most important
AWARENESS of what was going on around them.

This may sound a bit OTT and probably has to be tempered with the fact Hearts were poor beyond belief but at the same time it was a joy to watch.
How do we , in SPL , emulate this display ?
Not quite sure TBH as the basic talent has to be there which can be worked with and developed The question again has to be are there youngsters out there prepared to work and commit themselves ?:rolleyes:.
Will be interesting to see what Mr Doncaster and " Harry Potter" have to say in the coming days :greengrin


:flag:

Mr Doncaster and Harry Potter would have us playing the same way as now but only more repeats , as for giving youngsters a chance to show there talents and learn how to play the game as it should be you can forget it if they have their way , more crash bash than pass and move !.

[Geo_1875]

The big difference I noticed last night was the size of the players. Some of the hertz team are considered "big" bruisers and they are compared to many in Scotland but they were dwarfed by the Spurs players. Even Lennon who I'd always thought of as a wee winger looked on a par with the hertz defenders. English players and their imports always seem like big athletic types compared to those in Scotland and that is a huge advantage even before you consider the skill gap.

[Hakim Sar]

This thread is screaming out for Edwin de Graaff being brought up. An absolute donkey in SPL but maybe.. Just maybe there would be a player in there if our football was open to a more pass and move style and he had players around him who made intelligent runs into space or dropped short for a give and go.

[dangermouse]

We had it under Mowbray and McLeish, although in different ways.
TM's side was energetic, full of young players he had them believing in themselves. However all were technically pretty good and we played great attacking football. Whilst McLeish had a more experience side and some of the football we played was brilliant, the 6-2 game in particular, was quite a performance.
Under Collins as well we had some fine displays. 1-0 win at Ibrox where Rangers could hardly get the ball of us, we matched Celtic at ER football wise and the Qtr final against Hearts in the league cup, was another stand out.

So we've not been served too much guff over the last 10 years or so....... But i totally agree with the posts on here and would like to see passing and move something we should become to expect from professional footballers.

Starts from youth coaching though IMO, did we not ditch 11-a-sides in favour of 7's, like the Dutch do? Players will get more on the ball and develop better from it, rather than wee laddies running about big park and hoofing the ball around. Certainly think this is part of the root cause issue's in our country... facilities and so on too, we're years behind other countries.
Football was more laboured in the 70s + 80s and the Scottish style seen us do alright, however we've been left behind and we're not getting any closer it seems.

We do indeed play 7 aside but only up to under 12. The SFA would rather we played 7 aside up to under 14 but most clubs switch to 11 aside halfway through the under 12 season which is madness. The park is far too big and usually a mud bath. The only decent 11 aside pitch for youngsters I saw my son play on was at Bonnyrigg where the side line was only a couple of yards away from the 18 yard box. The game was end to end with plenty of goals.

IMHO there are too many "win at all costs" type of coaches in youth football. My son plays in the lowest division but you'd still think some of the teams he's faced thought they were playing in the world cup final. At that standard, it should be all about fun as they're never going to make the professional grade.

[Kato]

Eddie Turnbull's training methods outwith fitness was to drum passing drills into the team and how to find space on the park i.e. movement off the ball.

That was it. Very simple and basic as football is a simple game, pass - move and everything else takes care of itself.

Scottish players back then, mostly, had the same upper body strength and attitude to general fitness as their English counterparts, which is the biggest difference I noticed last night. If you can't stand up to your opponent then any skill level goes by the board.

Spoiling games in Scotland, most of a players energy during a game is given over to destructive pressing play, is seen as the most important "skill".

Until proper municipal facilities are built and an attitude change comes about nothing will change here. I can't see anything on the horizon to think it's going to happen sometime soon. I'm still waiting on Ernie Walker's overhaul of the youth set-ups promised after Argentina '78.

[patlowe]

The physical gulf between the teams should also be highlighted. Hearts are generally thought of as a physical side but they repeatedly bounced off the Spurs players last night, who looked overwhelmingly bigger, stronger, faster and healthier than their opponents. While I don't want to revert to a JC vs RP debate, I do wonder whether Collins' techniques might have put us on course for EPL levels of fitness and conditioning. If Scottish teams are going to go into these matches at european and international level at a technical disadvantage, surely the least we should expect is to be as physically prepared as possible? Is this a cultural or financial issue?

Edit: I realise that bigger budgets make it easier to purchase players with greater physical attributes.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The physical gulf between the teams should also be highlighted. Hearts are generally thought of as a physical side but they repeatedly bounced off the Spurs players last night, who looked overwhelmingly bigger, stronger, faster and healthier than their opponents. While I don't want to revert to a JC vs RP debate, I do wonder whether Collins' techniques might have put us on course for EPL levels of fitness and conditioning. If Scottish teams are going to go into these matches at european and international level at a technical disadvantage, surely the least we should expect is to be as physically prepared as possible? Is this a cultural or financial issue?

Edit: I realise that bigger budgets make it easier to purchase players with greater physical attributes.

The physical side of the game is a very valid point. I went down to see West Ham a few times last season and they were powder puff. The fans have the same mythical nonsense about the way football should be played as we do. Time and again The Hammers players were out muscled as they tried to play "The West Ham way".

Big Sam has been at the club a matter of weeks and the difference in the size of players he has brought in will make all the difference, especially in The Championship.

[shagpile]

The physical gulf between the teams should also be highlighted. Hearts are generally thought of as a physical side but they repeatedly bounced off the Spurs players last night, who looked overwhelmingly bigger, stronger, faster and healthier than their opponents. While I don't want to revert to a JC vs RP debate, I do wonder whether Collins' techniques might have put us on course for EPL levels of fitness and conditioning. If Scottish teams are going to go into these matches at european and international level at a technical disadvantage, surely the least we should expect is to be as physically prepared as possible? Is this a cultural or financial issue?

Edit: I realise that bigger budgets make it easier to purchase players with greater physical attributes.

I don't think it's financial. Cultural most certainly.

I'm afraid we have to bring up Collins in the context of fitness & ability. He tried to get the squad to buy into the fitness thing & we know what happened there. I think given the time & opportunity he would have got the young players coming into the club to buy into it & it would have paid dividends.
We all saw the difference in the experienced players too.
Every player in every nation seems to have sussed this, but our guys are happy to train for 90 minutes & then bugger off to the bookies or the boozer. Which is why we are losers.

[HibsMax]

I wonder the same thing myself when I watch GREAT teams play and then watch the SPL. I suppose the most fundamental abilities in football are to (a) kick a ball and (b) kick a ball straight. If you can do both of these things, while not standing still, then you should be able to pass the ball. It amazes me the number of times I see us passing the ball to nobody. I'm not saying this is easy by the way but when you watch the great teams play they make it look sooooooooooooo easy. I don't know how someone can play football all their life, right up to the professional level, but still can't pass the ball. I just don't comprehend that.

EDIT: I posted before I read the whole thread which is why I appear to be repeating what everyone else is saying. :)

[Bayern Bru]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already as I've only skimmed the thread, but the answer lies in teaching the skills from a young age.

If you go anywhere in Europe and watch youth teams and younger training, it's all about working on passing, marking, tactics etc. A lot of youngsters in this country just can't be bothered with that. All they want is to play a game.

[Franck is God]

The reason we don't see teams playing the passing game often in the SPL is that the quality of player is no where good enough to sustain it. They can try it up to a point but eventually a pass will go astray and the other team nicks the ball and scores - a situation SPL fans have no patience for.


Did you not see Killie play last week? Some of their football was fantastic to watch, we helped them by being too slow in midfield but their manager has been allowed to use the same tactics for eleven league games in a row without a win under no pressure from the fans or his employers.

In my opinion football fans get what they ask for and deserve on most occasions.

Ask the noisy element of the Charlton support when they criticised Curbishly for delivering mid table Premiership football every season and not moving the club forward. Of course they don't go to the games anymore, they more than likely moan about the lack of investment in the team on message boards because that must be the reason for the decline....

The quality of football played in the SPL is actually very good considering the overall level of monetary investment made by the clubs and fans, if we as fans want it to be better either the ones that are currently going need to pay more or the ones that moan need to shut up and get along to a game once and a while.

[hibeedonald]

People who think Rangers and Celtic would have done no better last night are wrong, rangers managed a draw at Old Trafford last year and were only beaten by a Wayne Rooney penalty at Ibrox.

[jdships]

Mr Doncaster and Harry Potter would have us playing the same way as now but only more repeats , as for giving youngsters a chance to show there talents and learn how to play the game as it should be you can forget it if they have their way , more crash bash than pass and move !.

Sadly I have to agree with what you write 100%
Speaking with a couple of @spurs supporters this lunch time and they were gobsmacked at the " gulf in class " between the two teams were They were equally surprised at there being no "Reserve League" in Scotland .
"Our youngsters are fighting for places in the 2nd XI and know that they have to work hard to keepe a place."

[Iggy Pope]

Sadly I have to agree with what you write 100%
Speaking with a couple of @spurs supporters this lunch time and they were gobsmacked at the " gulf in class " between the two teams were They were equally surprised at there being no "Reserve League" in Scotland .
"Our youngsters are fighting for places in the 2nd XI and know that they have to work hard to keepe a place."

The demise of the Reserve League has hit us harder than some clubs and RP is wel aware. I belive that Hibs' delegation want it reinstated by the SPL but are met with resistance.

Our double winning U-19s for instance had no middle ground to develop. Six or seven signed pro terms but as far as I know only Calum Booth and Sean Welsh remain.
A wee bit of development in a competitive reserve league / U-21 league might have helped.

Edit: Add David Wotherspoon to that pair!

[jdships]

The demise of the Reserve League has hit us harder than some clubs and RP is wel aware. I belive that Hibs' delegation want it reinstated by the SPL but are met with resistance.

Our double winning U-19s for instance had no middle ground to develop. Six or seven signed pro terms but as far as I know only Calum Booth and Sean Welsh remain.
A wee bit of development in a competitive reserve league / U-21 league might have helped.


Again you are 100% correct!
No matter what level of the game you play at , pub team/SPL, the reason you took up the sport was to PLAY GAMES.
I know that a number of young fringe pro rugby players travel away from the area they live/play in to get a game on Sundays - could this happen in football :rolleyes

[SquashedFrogg]

We do indeed play 7 aside but only up to under 12. The SFA would rather we played 7 aside up to under 14 but most clubs switch to 11 aside halfway through the under 12 season which is madness. The park is far too big and usually a mud bath. The only decent 11 aside pitch for youngsters I saw my son play on was at Bonnyrigg where the side line was only a couple of yards away from the 18 yard box. The game was end to end with plenty of goals.

IMHO there are too many "win at all costs" type of coaches in youth football. My son plays in the lowest division but you'd still think some of the teams he's faced thought they were playing in the world cup final. At that standard, it should be all about fun as they're never going to make the professional grade.

I help coach and run an under 9's 7's team and you wouldn't believe some of the things we see from other teams.

We train twice a week and focus entirely on passing, touch, technique, movement etc. Playing out from the back we ensure our keeper rolls it out to either full back or a midfielder dropping deep. I'd say this happens successfully 19 out of 20 times. There is the odd occasion when there's nothing on that he'll end up kicking it. Likewise at corners, we work purely on short corners, working the ball into or around the edge of the box.

Throw ins are meant to be short, 6 yard passes but teams use these as an other opportunity to fire it in the box.

We've actually got quite a small group of kids but find that by adopting the basics we tend to out play other teams.

We are however, quite rare in my experience. Virtually every other team in our district launch the ball from the keeper without even thinking about going short. Likewise at corners, the biggest boy in the team launches it in the box.

Whilst there's no points system or cups at this age group many coaches still seem to focus on winning the match rather than see the boys develop their skills.

We also rotate/sub our lads during each match to give them experience of different positions and equal game time. Regardless of their ability and what the score is. It's amazing how this has improved our kids in the last year or so.

I'm sure we're not the only ones taking this approach but I wish more would follow.

(although in saying that we're currently getting hounded by scouts at the moment but that's another story!)

[SquashedFrogg]

People who think Rangers and Celtic would have done no better last night are wrong, rangers managed a draw at Old Trafford last year and were only beaten by a Wayne Rooney penalty at Ibrox.

Did you mange to see the recent Huns / Chelsea game a few weeks back? Chelsea played at half pace and cruised the game. I'm also confident that if Celtic scraped a 0-0 against Sion last night Spurs would've beat them fairly comfortably also.

:agree:

IMO the major reason is money. From grass roots, academy to first team. Facilities, coaching. The sky money down south is frightening. Someone suggested today that the bottom team in the epl gets £40m tv renenue whilst the entire spl gets £3.5m. Add in increased , prize money for league position, sponsorship revenue due to greater exposure etc it put's them on a different level.

Simples really.

Considering our population compared to England I actually think our production of talented young players is quite good due top having no money (blooding youngsters) and maybe explains why our national team future looks quite positive (ie you can't buy international players) but when it comes to club football epl teams can easily attract top foriegn players (which in turn improves young english players)



(Hearts are still sh8te though)

[Baw187]

Did you not see Killie play last week? Some of their football was fantastic to watch, we helped them by being too slow in midfield but their manager has been allowed to use the same tactics for eleven league games in a row without a win under no pressure from the fans or his employers.

In my opinion football fans get what they ask for and deserve on most occasions.

Ask the noisy element of the Charlton support when they criticised Curbishly for delivering mid table Premiership football every season and not moving the club forward. Of course they don't go to the games anymore, they more than likely moan about the lack of investment in the team on message boards because that must be the reason for the decline....

The quality of football played in the SPL is actually very good considering the overall level of monetary investment made by the clubs and fans, if we as fans want it to be better either the ones that are currently going need to pay more or the ones that moan need to shut up and get along to a game once and a while.

Fair enough, Killie play some good stuff but I know 2 Killie fans who were less than chuffed with their winless streak. Maybe I, as a Hibs fan am guided by how our fans react and it's clear that most on here would be up in arms if we were getting caught in possession trying to play football from the back every week. No matter how pretty the football was.