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Thecat23
15-08-2011, 03:08 PM
So Hearts ARE in danger of going into administration after all. Will this actually happen or another faulse down?

smurf
15-08-2011, 03:12 PM
Not going to happen.

Thecat23
15-08-2011, 03:13 PM
Not going to happen.

Leading story on Forth One just now and also STV News. I think there is a good chance this time. -10 points right away if it does.

Lofarl
15-08-2011, 03:13 PM
If I had a pound for every thread about them going bust I could pay off their debt. Post a link from a reputable news source and no just I heard my mates mates mates cousins works at so and so and he heard this.

Im talking BBC or reuters here. Not some punters blog.

cabbageandribs1875
15-08-2011, 03:17 PM
Leading story on Forth One just now and also STV News. I think there is a good chance this time. -10 points right away if it does.


three wins and a draw and all is well again(wonder what team would gift them 3 wins), what a terrible punishment for them.






p.s. i imagine you meant a 'false dawn'

chorley_fm
15-08-2011, 03:17 PM
:yawn:

CropleyWasGod
15-08-2011, 03:19 PM
If I had a pound for every thread about them going bust I could pay off their debt. Post a link from a reputable news source and no just I heard my mates mates mates cousins works at so and so and he heard this.

Im talking BBC or reuters here. Not some punters blog.

Will Companies House do?

Newhaven
15-08-2011, 03:19 PM
Heart of Midlothian Football Club have been threatened with administration by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

A Petition for Administration Order was lodged by the Advocate General for Scotland on July 29, granting HMRC the right to serve the order on the club.

STV understands talks over outstanding tax payments have broken down between the two parties, with an HMRC source saying they had “reached the end of the line as far as negotiations are concerned”.

Hearts were issued with a winding-up order by HMRC in July 2009 over the same case, which was subsequently cancelled when a payment agreement was struck between the two parties. The club have so far not commented on the matter.

Lithuanian-based businessman Vladimir Romanov is Hearts’ majority shareholder, having initially purchased former chief executive Chris Robinson’s 19.6% in 2004, before eventually increasing his ownership percentage to 82%.

If Hearts go into administration, they will immediately be deducted ten points by the Scottish Premier League and will be placed under a registration embargo. If the club continues to be subject to what the SPL calls an “insolvency event” into a new season, Hearts would start the new campaign on minus ten points.

Four clubs have been placed in administration in the short history of the SPL, starting with Motherwell in 2002 and followed by Dundee, Livingston and Gretna.

Being placed into administration would have no effect on Hearts’ participation in this season’s Europa League, with Paulo Sergio’s team due to take on Tottenham Hotspur this Thursday in the first leg of their play-off round tie.

Hamish
15-08-2011, 03:21 PM
The games against Spurs will give them some leeway financially. Would think they will make a decent amount out of the 2 games.

Whether Mr Romanov decides to use this to partly satisfy HMRC, who knows?

Thecat23
15-08-2011, 03:22 PM
If I had a pound for every thread about them going bust I could pay off their debt. Post a link from a reputable news source and no just I heard my mates mates mates cousins works at so and so and he heard this.

Im talking BBC or reuters here. Not some punters blog.

http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/266340-heart-of-midlothian-football-club-issued-with-administration-order/

I never said it was my mate, it's on the news. I'm the same heard it all before but it seems it could be real this time.

SteveHFC
15-08-2011, 03:23 PM
Please let this happen.

Andy74
15-08-2011, 03:25 PM
So what really happens to them if this ever comes to pass?

Everyone they owe money to gets pennies back and Hearts debt gets nicely wiped out with only ten points deduction to show for years of overspending and the competitive advantage it gave them?

Would they lose the stadium, their players?

Lofarl
15-08-2011, 03:25 PM
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/266340-heart-of-midlothian-football-club-issued-with-administration-order/

I never said it was my mate, it's on the news. I'm the same heard it all before but it seems it could be real this time.

Fair enough, but im still skeptical. It's too good to be true. Anyone know what the inbreds over at kickback are slavering over this. The usual hobo nonsense and weegie media conspiracy I bet.

Let them die, please let them die. I swear if they do I will even vote Tory.

Beefster
15-08-2011, 03:27 PM
Has HMRC ever put a club into administration?

Hamish
15-08-2011, 03:29 PM
Fair enough, but im still skeptical. It's too good to be true. Anyone know what the inbreds over at kickback are slavering over this. The usual hobo nonsense and weegie media conspiracy I bet.

Let them die, please let them die. I swear if they do I will even vote Tory.

There have been many disgraceful comments over the years on Hibs.net.

This tops the lot though.

degenerated
15-08-2011, 03:30 PM
Has HMRC ever put a club into administration?

crystal palace

H18sry
15-08-2011, 03:30 PM
http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=130950&pid=1963483&st=0&#entry1963483

Picture of document that was served last Tuesday :greengrin

Beefster
15-08-2011, 03:32 PM
crystal palace

Good stuff if HMRC have followed through on the threat before. Even if it happens, the Yam support will take it without a murmur as usual.

the_ginger_hibee
15-08-2011, 03:32 PM
:rolleyes:

Can we get a 'Hearts in Admin' sticky...

Dashing Bob S
15-08-2011, 03:41 PM
Only Hearts could make something so potentially cataclysmic as administration into a colossal bore.

Part/Time Supporter
15-08-2011, 03:41 PM
So what really happens to them if this ever comes to pass?

Everyone they owe money to gets pennies back and Hearts debt gets nicely wiped out with only ten points deduction to show for years of overspending and the competitive advantage it gave them?

Would they lose the stadium, their players?

It depends on Romanov. If he's not willing to settle their debts with HMRC then presumably he would also be unwilling to continue his subsidy of Hearts. If that happens, then an administrator would be appointed by the court.

If an administrator is appointed, he would try to run the business on a profit and sell it as a going concern. That would mean them having to cut their wage bill from circa £9M to nearer £4M. That would mean most or all of their higher earners being made redundant.

Of course, they've had these situations in the past (players not getting paid, HMRC chasing them) and eventually a fresh tranche of money has come through from Lithuania to allow debts to be paid. The presumption will be that will continue. It would seem a bit odd to pull the plug now, just when it looks like they might make a few quid from playing in Europe.

Cropley10
15-08-2011, 03:45 PM
So what really happens to them if this ever comes to pass?

Everyone they owe money to gets pennies back and Hearts debt gets nicely wiped out with only ten points deduction to show for years of overspending and the competitive advantage it gave them?

Would they lose the stadium, their players?

No they'd not lose their stadium, as it's not owned by them.

They'd get a 10 point deduction - any creditors would get next to nothing - as you say for years of cheating

Steve20
15-08-2011, 03:45 PM
Heard it all before. Not going to happen.

Part/Time Supporter
15-08-2011, 03:46 PM
No they'd not lose their stadium, as it's not owned by them.

They'd get a 10 point deduction - any creditors would get next to nothing - as you say for years of cheating

The biggest creditor by far is Romanov, in one form or another. It depends on him.

Cropley10
15-08-2011, 03:49 PM
It depends on Romanov. If he's not willing to settle their debts with HMRC then presumably he would also be unwilling to continue his subsidy of Hearts. That would mean them having to cut their wage bill from circa £9M to nearer £4M. They've had these situations in the past though (players not getting paid, HMRC chasing them) and eventually a fresh tranche of money has come through from Lithuania to allow debts to be paid. The presumption will be that will continue. It would seem a bit odd to pull the plug now, just when it looks like they might make a few quid from playing in Europe.

So HMRC want to put them into admin for not paying their taxes.

If they go into admin they get an immediate 10 point penalty.

Are you saying that he can't just carry on then - if he doesn't pay HMRC? I'd thought he could stiff them for a few pence in the pound too and carry on regardless. :dunno: :confused:

mowgli
15-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Heart of Midlothian Football Club have been threatened with administration by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

A Petition for Administration Order was lodged by the Advocate General for Scotland on July 29, granting HMRC the right to serve the order on the club.

STV understands talks over outstanding tax payments have broken down between the two parties, with an HMRC source saying they had “reached the end of the line as far as negotiations are concerned”.

Hearts were issued with a winding-up order by HMRC in July 2009 over the same case, subsequently cancelled when a payment agreement was struck between the two parties which was . The club have so far not commented on the matter.

Lithuanian-based businessman Vladimir Romanov is Hearts’ majority shareholder, having initially purchased former chief executive Chris Robinson’s 19.6% in 2004, before eventually increasing his ownership percentage to 82%.

If Hearts go into administration, they will immediately be deducted ten points by the Scottish Premier League and will be placed under a registration embargo. If the club continues to be subject to what the SPL calls an “insolvency event” into a new season, Hearts would start the new campaign on minus ten points.

Four clubs have been placed in administration in the short history of the SPL, starting with Motherwell in 2002 and followed by Dundee, Livingston and Gretna.

Being placed into administration would have no effect on Hearts’ participation in this season’s Europa League, with Paulo Sergio’s team due to take on Tottenham Hotspur this Thursday in the first leg of their play-off round tie.

This story has been lifted straight off JKB. It was issued then cancelled as they came to an agreement. So pretty much a non story.

Part/Time Supporter
15-08-2011, 03:52 PM
So HMRC want to put them into admin for not paying their taxes.

If they go into admin they get an immediate 10 point penalty.

Are you saying that he can't just carry on then - if he doesn't pay HMRC? I'd thought he could stiff them for a few pence in the pound too and carry on regardless. :dunno: :confused:

Romanov can't just "stiff" HMRC because the court would grant their order and appoint an administrator. The administrator would then get rid of half of the staff to get them running at break even. Romanov could then buy the club from the administrator (as John Boyle did with Motherwell), but the club would have to go through that legal process first, which can go on for months, the administrator takes healthy fees and players get punted without his say-so.

The likeliest scenario is that a fresh tranche of money will come over from Lithuania and HMRC will get a chunk of that, which will stay the court action.

CropleyWasGod
15-08-2011, 03:53 PM
This story has been lifted straight off JKB. It was issued then cancelled as they came to an agreement. So pretty much a non story.

Are you saying there has been an agreement in the latest process?

Cropley10
15-08-2011, 03:53 PM
This story has been lifted straight off JKB. It was issued then cancelled as they came to an agreement. So pretty much a non story.

So that's twice then that it's been issued and then cancelled?

Wanna read that again?:confused:

Bobo
15-08-2011, 03:58 PM
Looks like their gonna worm their way out of it again!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14535366.stm

mowgli
15-08-2011, 03:58 PM
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/266340-heart-of-midlothian-football-club-issued-with-administration-order/

HNA6
15-08-2011, 04:01 PM
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/266340-heart-of-midlothian-football-club-issued-with-administration-order/Will be settled the morn ...aye ..just like you settle players wages in time ..:fibber:

O'Rourke3
15-08-2011, 04:05 PM
No they'd not lose their stadium, as it's not owned by them.

They'd get a 10 point deduction - any creditors would get next to nothing - as you say for years of cheating

And relegated to Div 3?

cwilliamson85
15-08-2011, 04:18 PM
An agreement has already been put in place to pay tomorrow.

H18sry
15-08-2011, 04:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUaJzz5XUo&feature=player_embedded

Golden Bear
15-08-2011, 04:24 PM
An agreement has already been put in place to pay tomorrow.

I wonder what would have happened if they hadn't been so lucky to draw a money spinning tie against Spurs?

Bassas.

:sick:

brog
15-08-2011, 04:41 PM
An agreement has already been put in place to pay tomorrow.

Yep, the 3 World Cup stars are going to hand deliver the cheque as soon as they've checked into the 5 star hotel beside the 40,000 seater stadium!! :rolleyes:

hibs0666
15-08-2011, 04:46 PM
An agreement has already been put in place to pay tomorrow.

All they need to do now is honour that agreement then and the inevitable will be staved off for another few months. :wink:

Geo_1875
15-08-2011, 04:47 PM
HMRC won't give themthe same terms they got before. You can be sure that they will have to pay a huge chunk up front. And HMRC won't take 10p in the pound if Hertz go under. They're a priority creditor and can force them out of business to get their money.

RyeSloan
15-08-2011, 04:52 PM
HMRC won't give themthe same terms they got before. You can be sure that they will have to pay a huge chunk up front. And HMRC won't take 10p in the pound if Hertz go under. They're a priority creditor and can force them out of business to get their money.

I'm not sure this is true anymore....hence their increased desire to place clubs into Administration. Before they could just wait and take what was left anyway, now they are in line like everyone else. Well that's what I remember hearing when the Portsmouth saga was playing out but absolutely no expert so happy for someone to clarify!

ancienthibby
15-08-2011, 04:55 PM
HMRC won't give themthe same terms they got before. You can be sure that they will have to pay a huge chunk up front. And HMRC won't take 10p in the pound if Hertz go under. They're a priority creditor and can force them out of business to get their money.

NOPE, not so, HMRC were stripped of that power a number of years ago!:bye:

jacomo
15-08-2011, 05:05 PM
Looks like administration will be staved off for now. Wouldn't have been enough anyhow - total, catastrophic collapse is what we're all waiting for.

lapsedhibee
15-08-2011, 05:07 PM
Looks like administration will be staved off for now. Wouldn't have been enough anyhow - total, catastrophic collapse is what we're all waiting for.

Would prefer something more lingering myself, to eke out the maximum pleasure.

Hainan Hibs
15-08-2011, 05:07 PM
I wish I could piss about this amount with paying taxes!

bod
15-08-2011, 05:09 PM
" we aw ken vladimher likes tea pay at thi last minite , ah pie ma gas bill it thi last minite its nuhin tea wuri aboot
what a plum
hope your mothers proud of you son

muzzhfc
15-08-2011, 05:10 PM
we would miss the yams if they went under. no more derbies etc. however, I am enjoying this situation of theirs and finding it very amusing

down-the-slope
15-08-2011, 05:16 PM
The ultimate is not going to happing any time soon...or at Ibrox...HOWEVER at least the thumb screws are out by HMRC and the level of fine and pressure is being upped where warrented...that should stop some of the excess and stop the cheating that this in fact is. I really hope the bigger deal of the investigation into offshore image rights companies that have been a dodge to give players tax free earnings is found to be illegal as that will really damage Rangers...and I think Hearts have been at that particular tax avoidance as well......that really would provide entertainment....:greengrin

Sas_The_Hibby
15-08-2011, 05:16 PM
I only ask because I don't know how this works, but why would Hearts be docked 10 points when Dundee were docked 25? Is it just different rules in the SPL and the SFL?

Anyway, as has been said, they will undoubtedly survive this but, as with Dundee, it seems shocking that you can continue to get a competitive advantage over everyone else, by spending money you don't have, then, if it comes to the 'crunch', get away with paying some or all creditors a few pence in the pound of what you owe them.

Boris
15-08-2011, 05:19 PM
Nothing story. If we've learned anything about Vlad's business practices at all it's that he's happy to let things go down to the wire before he settles bills. He'll have a payment deal in place with HMRC sooner rather than later & it'll all disappear until the next going bust non-story. Anyway, they could always get a Wonga loan till they get the Spurs cash in........................

The Falcon
15-08-2011, 05:35 PM
No they'd not lose their stadium, as it's not owned by them.

They'd get a 10 point deduction - any creditors would get next to nothing - as you say for years of cheating


And this, for me, is the bit that really really rankles. What does it mean in reality? Hee Haw. Any club which ends up like this, in a manner such as this, should be busted out the leagues.

Barney McGrew
15-08-2011, 06:21 PM
Has HMRC ever put a club into administration?

They killed off Chester City last year, but quite often clubs will put themselves into voluntary administration under pressure from HMRC. IIRC, that's what happened at Portsmouth.

It's amazing how many clubs have found themselves in administration or CVAs, some more than once.

HFC 0-7
15-08-2011, 06:26 PM
I think caversham needs to step in here and tell us whats what in regards to who will get paid if they go into admin. Yes creditors will be paid pennies against what they are actually owed, however, Romanov owns the companies that are owed money therefore he would take the hit. in terms of who would get paid first, HMRC are not a priority creditor now but would the fact that the romanov owns the companies that are owed money have any bearing on who is paid first?

I wouldnt be surprised if Hearts struggle to pay it, they must be very close to their borrowing limit of 40 million and the tax bill could take them over it.

HFC 0-7
15-08-2011, 06:27 PM
They killed off Chester City last year, but quite often clubs will put themselves into voluntary administration under pressure from HMRC. IIRC, that's what happened at Portsmouth.

It's amazing how many clubs have found themselves in administration or CVAs, some more than once.

Did Portsmouth not going into voluntary administration so that they could appoint the adminstrators? Was there not some debate of people not getting paid that should have?

Future17
15-08-2011, 06:30 PM
I only ask because I don't know how this works, but why would Hearts be docked 10 points when Dundee were docked 25? Is it just different rules in the SPL and the SFL?

Anyway, as has been said, they will undoubtedly survive this but, as with Dundee, it seems shocking that you can continue to get a competitive advantage over everyone else, by spending money you don't have, then, if it comes to the 'crunch', get away with paying some or all creditors a few pence in the pound of what you owe them.

I think it was an increased deduction as it was the second time Dundee had gone into administration in recent years.

Kaiser1962
15-08-2011, 06:50 PM
Did Portsmouth not going into voluntary administration so that they could appoint the adminstrators? Was there not some debate of people not getting paid that should have?

Administration is supposed to be a short term process whereby companies who are having cash flow issues can buy themselves a bit of time in order to address these issues whilst protecting them from creditor's at the time they are most vulnerable. Once said issues are rectified then the company in question returns to normal trading. Football Clubs, and their owners, IMO, abuse this process and use it as a vehicle with which to dump their debts and the poor guy they owe money too usually get under 10p in the £, whilst the club drops 10 points and carries on as before. Utterly scandalous in my opinion.

Hearts appear to be slightly different in that the main creditor and the owner are basically the same entity and while they are not in danger of going into admin yet, the fact that they are in this position should concern the Orcs. But it wont. They are a rash on the arse of humanity.

Pedantic_Hibee
15-08-2011, 06:52 PM
But a Hearts spokesman told the BBC: "The situation is under control.
"The amount will be paid in full tomorrow."

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKQdNOwsrY1sAgi9v_CfyNMSF4jlkFh Yl88jzLLknhwWHkx-842g

Sergey
15-08-2011, 07:02 PM
What on earth has happened to their season ticket money? They can't have *****ed that already, can they?

One home match into the season and their cash-flow is already creaking.

The Tottenham cash won't see then through till October, let alone the end of the season.

HFC 0-7
15-08-2011, 07:03 PM
Administration is supposed to be a short term process whereby companies who are having cash flow issues can buy themselves a bit of time in order to address these issues whilst protecting them from creditor's at the time they are most vulnerable. Once said issues are rectified then the company in question returns to normal trading. Football Clubs, and their owners, IMO, abuse this process and use it as a vehicle with which to dump their debts and the poor guy they owe money too usually get under 10p in the £, whilst the club drops 10 points and carries on as before. Utterly scandalous in my opinion.

Hearts appear to be slightly different in that the main creditor and the owner are basically the same entity and while they are not in danger of going into admin yet, the fact that they are in this position should concern the Orcs. But it wont. They are a rash on the arse of humanity.


I do think it gets abused but I think Portsmouth had to sell a lot of the players or assetts when thewy went into admin. Would this not be the same for Hearts. To the adminstrators not try to raise enough cash from the assets to pay creditors?

lucky
15-08-2011, 07:11 PM
When they go into administration they will sell of all their assets to try and settle their bills. This will have a huge effect on them as a club. But the likelihood is that they would suffer for a year or so but come back in a stronger position debt free and more importantly Vlad free

Kaiser1962
15-08-2011, 07:16 PM
I do think it gets abused but I think Portsmouth had to sell a lot of the players or assetts when thewy went into admin. Would this not be the same for Hearts. To the administrators not try to raise enough cash from the assets to pay creditors?

I think the difference with Hearts is that most, if not all, significant sums (other than taxes) are owed to Vlad's companies (UBIG/UKIO) and in order for them to go into admin then they have to do it to themselves which, even though he is unhinged enough, seems unlikely. God knows what the rest of the shareholders of those companies, or the depositors in UKIO, think about it all though.

Kaiser1962
15-08-2011, 07:16 PM
What on earth has happened to their season ticket money? They can't have *****ed that already, can they?

One home match into the season and their cash-flow is already creaking.

The Tottenham cash won't see then through till October, let alone the end of the season.


I was thinking along these lines as well.

lapsedhibee
15-08-2011, 07:22 PM
They'd get a 10 point deduction - any creditors would get next to nothing - as you say for years of cheating

Cheating? For goodness' sake. If it wasn't for Hertz we'd all be speaking German - surely the government, of all people, could turn a blind eye to their £40m shopping spree (a mere bagatelle in the scheme of things)?


Did Portsmouth not going into voluntary administration so that they could appoint the adminstrators? Was there not some debate of people not getting paid that should have?
Sol Campbell took Portsmouth to court for unpaid wages.

greenlex
15-08-2011, 07:25 PM
Bassa. I read the thread title as "Hearts in administration Thread."
Bugger!

Bishop Hibee
15-08-2011, 07:25 PM
When they go into administration they will sell of all their assets to try and settle their bills. This will have a huge effect on them as a club. But the likelihood is that they would suffer for a year or so but come back in a stronger position debt free and more importantly Vlad free

An utter disgrace but sadly true. We can only hope a year of turmoil would be sealed with relegation but given how Motherwell have survived and prospered, I doubt it.

crash
15-08-2011, 07:29 PM
When they go into administration they will sell of all their assets to try and settle their bills. This will have a huge effect on them as a club. But the likelihood is that they would suffer for a year or so but come back in a stronger position debt free and more importantly Vlad free
Surely that would mean they woulld have to sell their ground, so how would they be in a stronger position?

CropleyWasGod
15-08-2011, 07:31 PM
An utter disgrace but sadly true. We can only hope a year of turmoil would be sealed with relegation but given how Motherwell have survived and prospered, I doubt it.

IIRC, Motherwell were able to survive because John Boyle, the biggest creditor, wrote off his debt.

In Hearts' scenario, given that UBIG/UKIOS/Vlad/insert other Lith entity are their biggest creditor, they would have to do the same.

Pedantic_Hibee
15-08-2011, 07:31 PM
Surely that would mean they woulld have to sell their ground, so how would they be in a stronger position?

They don't own Tynecastle.

Neither do they have a training centre they can call their own.

To be honest, outwith maybe 2 or 3 players that would sell for over a million, they've got no assets at all of which to speak of.

Removed
15-08-2011, 07:34 PM
They don't own Tynecastle.Neither do they have a training centre they can call their own.To be honest, outwith maybe 2 or 3 players that would sell for over a million, they've got no assets at all of which to speak of. .....and that bulb :wink:

justlikebrazil
15-08-2011, 07:37 PM
Who gives a toss about them anyway. As long as they get a good humping on Thursday night :agree:

edwards
15-08-2011, 07:39 PM
CMON YE SPURS :greengrin

Caversham Green
15-08-2011, 07:42 PM
This is a departure from HMRC's normal practice relating to football clubs. To quote me from an earlier thread (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?215648-Is-this-Real-...-or-is-it-the-end)


Originally posted by Me
This is a petition for administration, which means that HMRC are asking the court to appoint an administrator against HoMFC's wishes. A winding up petition, which HMRC have raised at least twice in the last few years asks the court to close the company down. The company then responds by paying off the debt or going into voluntary administration (as Portsmouth did). I don't know why HMRC have adopted this tactic unless they think there's a real prospect of the action going ahead. The fact that a document has been filed at Companies House means that it is very real and at least as serious as any previous action.

I guess, but don't know, that if HoMFC pay off the debt the petition will be withdrawn but the notice will remain on file at Companies House.

In the case of Crystal Palace, I thought it was the landlords that put them into administration, but in all the other cases I think HMRC have raised winding up petitions which forced the clubs into voluntary administration.

Things could get very messy if an administrator was appointed - he would have to consider the prospects of the club returning to profitability, and on the basis of all available information, that prospect is very low. If he could not justify those prospects he would have to wind them up. That would raise the possibility of the directors being charged with wrongful trading and criminal charges could ensue. I wouldn't fancy his job, but I can't see Vlad letting that happen in any case as he could also be implicated.

While a number of people have become quite cynical about these threads, this illustrates yet again that HoMFC are teetering on the brink, and have been for most of this century.

HFC 0-7
15-08-2011, 07:46 PM
This is a departure from HMRC's normal practice relating to football clubs. To quote me from an earlier thread (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?215648-Is-this-Real-...-or-is-it-the-end)



In the case of Crystal Palace, I thought it was the landlords that put them into administration, but in all the other cases I think HMRC have raised winding up petitions which forced the clubs into voluntary administration.

Things could get very messy if an administrator was appointed - he would have to consider the prospects of the club returning to profitability, and on the basis of all available information, that prospect is very low. If he could not justify those prospects he would have to wind them up. That would raise the possibility of the directors being charged with wrongful trading and criminal charges could ensue. I wouldn't fancy his job, but I can't see Vlad letting that happen in any case as he could also be implicated.

While a number of people have become quite cynical about these threads, this illustrates yet again that HoMFC are teetering on the brink, and have been for most of this century.


Could they be struggling now with the debt cap of 40 mill? They wrote debt off last time around, this tax bill and they run at a loss every year, maybe they dont have any money left.

Caversham Green
15-08-2011, 08:08 PM
Could they be struggling now with the debt cap of 40 mill? They wrote debt off last time around, this tax bill and they run at a loss every year, maybe they dont have any money left.

I maintain that that £8m debt write-off last year was a retrospective bail-out to get below the £40m cap. On top of that they carried out a £10m debt for equity swap later in the year and they've just sold Wallace, plus it's season ticket time so they really shouldn't be hitting the cap now. Even so, I wouldn't be totally surprised if they were.

Sas_The_Hibby
15-08-2011, 08:15 PM
Who gives a toss about them anyway. As long as they get a good humping on Thursday night :agree:

I actually dreamt last night that Hearts won 4-0 (sad but true!). Boy, was I relieved to wake up from that one.

joe breezy
15-08-2011, 08:18 PM
Do they just not pay their debts late as possible whenever they can?

Sas_The_Hibby
15-08-2011, 08:19 PM
I think it was an increased deduction as it was the second time Dundee had gone into administration in recent years.

You're right, of course; I'd forgotten about that.

Sas_The_Hibby
15-08-2011, 08:21 PM
Do they just not pay their debts late as possible whenever they can?

Hearts' lawyers will soon be in touch with you at such a scandalous suggestion! :greengrin

PaulSmith
15-08-2011, 08:49 PM
https://twitter.com/danbrennan99/status/103205031989354496

"Hadn't realised that Vladimir Romanov had been linked to 5 (that's five) different clubs in Russia over the last year. All dead ends."

I think this is the main 442 editor and he is doing a piece on VR to be published soon.

The Falcon
15-08-2011, 09:14 PM
https://twitter.com/danbrennan99/status/103205031989354496

"Hadn't realised that Vladimir Romanov had been linked to 5 (that's five) different clubs in Russia over the last year. All dead ends."

I think this is the main 442 editor and he is doing a piece on VR to be published soon.


Should be an interesting read. :greengrin

MountcastleHibs
15-08-2011, 09:25 PM
What on earth has happened to their season ticket money? They can't have *****ed that already, can they?One home match into the season and their cash-flow is already creaking.The Tottenham cash won't see then through till October, let alone the end of the season.And the cash they got from the sale of Lee Wallace. What was it? £1.5million? Can't have p****d that all up the wall?

iwasthere1972
15-08-2011, 09:40 PM
Anyone know how much the Yams tax bill is?

Sammy7nil
15-08-2011, 09:48 PM
Anyone know how much the Yams tax bill is?

I was told it was £500,000 dont know if that is correct figure

iwasthere1972
15-08-2011, 10:19 PM
I was told it was £500,000 dont know if that is correct figure

Cheers. Hope whatever the figure is that it includes late payment fees,summons charges, postage, administration costs and interest etc etc etc.

Jim44
15-08-2011, 11:59 PM
Do they just not pay their debts late as possible whenever they can?

That's about the size of it. My grandad used to do exactly the same in business or private life ......... Don't pay any bill till the last second possible. Hardly admirable but financially efficient. Vlad's got it sussed and I certainly wouldn't get remotely excited about any potential or imminent Jambo financial demise.

basehibby
16-08-2011, 12:12 AM
Only Hearts could make something so potentially cataclysmic as administration into a colossal bore.

:top marks lol - on the button as ever Bob! :not worth

Mixu62
16-08-2011, 12:30 AM
Hearts' lawyers will soon be in touch with you at such a scandalous suggestion! :greengrin

Assuming their lawyers have been paid this month....:greengrin

lapsedhibee
16-08-2011, 06:01 AM
My grandad used to do exactly the same in business or private life ......... Don't pay any bill till the last second possible. Hardly admirable but financially efficient.

It's one thing to pay bills on the 30th day if they are 'payment due within 30 days'. It's quite another to force suppliers to take you to court for non-payment. People who do the former are perhaps 'financially efficient'; the latter, complete *****.

Hibrandenburg
16-08-2011, 06:07 AM
This is non story. HMRC is what the Jams have printed on their socks and refers to their long forgotten original name, namely Heart of Midlothian Rugby Club.

Caversham Green
16-08-2011, 06:56 AM
That's about the size of it. My grandad used to do exactly the same in business or private life ......... Don't pay any bill till the last second possible. Hardly admirable but financially efficient. Vlad's got it sussed and I certainly wouldn't get remotely excited about any potential or imminent Jambo financial demise.

That's fine when it costs the same whether you pay it early or late, but this is a late payment of a late payment and interest is accruing on a daily basis. It's costing them a lot more than it would if they simply complied with the law of the land and paid up on time like the rest of us do.

down-the-slope
16-08-2011, 07:13 AM
That's fine when it costs the same whether you pay it early or late, but this is a late payment of a late payment and interest is accruing on a daily basis. It's costing them a lot more than it would if they simply complied with the law of the land and paid up on time like the rest of us do.

:agree: the buns fines / interest etc is about 2/5 of the amount of origional bill due on top for instance :greengrin

as i already said this is small beer compared to offshore image rights payments avoidence scheme...which if declared illegal will change football in the UK and will bust a few clubs as the figures are huge and given HMRC ability ro retrospectively charge / fine will go back years......:pray:

GloryGlory
16-08-2011, 07:16 AM
They don't own Tynecastle.

Neither do they have a training centre they can call their own.

To be honest, outwith maybe 2 or 3 players that would sell for over a million, they've got no assets at all of which to speak of.

What happened to Rima's sticks? Have they gone to the pawn shop? :greengrin :greengrin

Seriously, not paying your tax bill is the height of social irresponsibility.

greenginger
16-08-2011, 08:01 AM
What on earth has happened to their season ticket money? They can't have *****ed that already, can they?

One home match into the season and their cash-flow is already creaking.

The Tottenham cash won't see then through till October, let alone the end of the season.


Vlad has other bills to pay. He has just had to put a £10 million injection into Ukio Bankas to keep it open and I'm sure his aluminium smelter has'nt suddenly become profitable.

May'be his "partners" who really only want an unquestioning Lith. bank to do their business are fed up supporting his toy football team.

Hope the 442 investigation shines some light on Vlad's businesses but I think it will take more than a football mag to nail Vlad and his associates.

GREEN WARLORD
16-08-2011, 10:05 AM
I actually dreamt last night that Hearts won 4-0 (sad but true!). Boy, was I relieved to wake up from that one.

That's a nightmare not a dream :)

Hamish
16-08-2011, 11:35 AM
I actually dreamt last night that Hearts won 4-0 (sad but true!). Boy, was I relieved to wake up from that one.

I remember watching Spurs against a Young Boys of Berne side at the start of last season who would struggle in the SPL. Spurs were ripped apart in Switzerland and only a good performance at WHL got them through then. Given this will be Spurs first competitive game I would not be surprised to see Hearts get a decent result at Tynecastle.

GREEN WARLORD
16-08-2011, 02:17 PM
They don't own Tynecastle.

Neither do they have a training centre they can call their own.

To be honest, outwith maybe 2 or 3 players that would sell for over a million, they've got no assets at all of which to speak of.

Who does own that scabby hovel then? :confused:

ScottB
16-08-2011, 03:00 PM
Who does own that scabby hovel then? :confused:

Vlad / Ukio / UBIG etc. It won't be an asset listed on the clubs balance sheet anymore anyway...

CropleyWasGod
16-08-2011, 03:04 PM
Vlad / Ukio / UBIG etc. It won't be an asset listed on the clubs balance sheet anymore anyway...

Hearts do own it. UKIO have a charge on it.

If I knew how to do it, I would attach the 2010 accounts.

ScottB
16-08-2011, 03:50 PM
Pretty sure Hearts do own it. UKIO have a charge on it.

Wasn't there a thread awhile back suggesting their last set of accounts or whatever suggested the stadium had changed hands?

CropleyWasGod
16-08-2011, 03:54 PM
Wasn't there a thread awhile back suggesting their last set of accounts or whatever suggested the stadium had changed hands?

As at July 2010, the stadium was owned by them, valued at £15.1m. If it has changed hands since then, and before the date of their signing (31 March this year), it would have been mentioned in the accounts as a "post-balance sheet event".

So, if it has been transferred, it would have taken place since 31 March.

Thomson
16-08-2011, 06:14 PM
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/hearts/2011/08/16/hearts-pay-200-000-to-taxman-and-avoid-administration-threat-86908-23349777/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

down the slope
17-08-2011, 05:45 PM
A bit more insight to the yams finances-a tangled web i think you will find , also some good stuff regards where we are in the financial stakes along with others in the SPL.

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011/08/romanovs-battle-for-hearts-and-minds.html

grunt
17-08-2011, 07:25 PM
http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011/08/romanovs-battle-for-hearts-and-minds.htmlInteresting site, thanks for the link. Haven't read it all yet, but I was a bit surprised that he values Hearts players at £18.5m?

sunshine1875
17-08-2011, 07:32 PM
A bit more insight to the yams finances-a tangled web i think you will find , also some good stuff regards where we are in the financial stakes along with others in the SPL.

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011/08/romanovs-battle-for-hearts-and-minds.html

Interesting article! Could there be a closing down sale in December?

This can be seen by the increasing debt, which reached £36 million at the time of the last published accounts in July 2010. That is simply enormous when the turnover is only £8 million and follows a series of what the club itself described as “significant operating losses.” The debt mainly comprises £24.3 million owed to the parent company UAB Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe (UBIG) at 4.5% interest, repayable in December 2011; £8.9 million owed to another group company UAB Hearts Developments (HD) at 3.5%, where the repayment date has been extended to August 2012; and £2.5 million convertible loan stock at LIBOR.

There is a fairly confusing paper trail for this debt, as it was owed to AB Ukio Bankas at the beginning of the year, then transferred to UBIG and another company called ImpExNet. The latter balance was then again transferred to HD during the course of the year. I’m not sure why this has to be so complex, but the important point is that all of these companies are under the effective control of Romanov. As Hearts director Sergejus Fedotovas said, “The key fact, that sets Hearts apart from many other clubs, is our debt is in the form of funding from our own parent company.” That’s true, but can occasionally be a double-edged sword if the owner loses patience with his investment.

That said, the debt position in 2010 would have been even worse without a £7.9 million forgiveness of debt from the parent company (effectively Romanov), which was not enough to prevent net debt from rising by £1.3 million. Actually, the debt would be horrifically high without several timely interventions from the owner, such as a £12 million debt-for-equity swap in 2007/08. Excluding these adjustments, the debt would stand at £56 million – seven times annual turnover.

banchoryhibs
17-08-2011, 07:50 PM
That was an interesting read although I don't think that it contained anything new.

The question of why Romanov bothers is still unanswered and the impression that they are big spenders in the transfer market is totally blown out of the water.

The striking fact reported is that Scottish Football is bottom of the league when it comes to TV deals, our current deal appears to be truly appalling

We are doing ok and we've got the 4th highest wages bill in the SPL!

down the slope
17-08-2011, 09:49 PM
That was an interesting read although I don't think that it contained anything new.

The question of why Romanov bothers is still unanswered and the impression that they are big spenders in the transfer market is totally blown out of the water.

The striking fact reported is that Scottish Football is bottom of the league when it comes to TV deals, our current deal appears to be truly appalling

We are doing ok and we've got the 4th highest wages bill in the SPL!

Who would know why the Russian bothers other than he might not like to lose "face", if that's the case it is costing him plenty , the yams might crow about their game against Spurs but they are only there because they are spending twice as much as they should be, one thing for sure it cannot go on for ever.

R'Albin
17-08-2011, 09:56 PM
I wouldn't want this to happen obviously but just hypothetically, if Vlad were to die, what would happen to Hearts? Who would they go to?

bighairyfaeleith
17-08-2011, 09:59 PM
I wouldn't want this to happen obviously but just hypothetically, if Vlad were to die, what would happen to Hearts? Who would they go to?

the dogs :wink:

DC_Hibs
17-08-2011, 10:07 PM
I wouldn't want this to happen obviously but just hypothetically, if Vlad were to die, what would happen to Hearts? Who would they go to?

Hopefully they'd go the same way as Gretna did with the plug pulled immediately as there'd surely be little appetite from Rodney Romanov or any unknown Lithuanian backers to continue bankrolling an essentially worthless club with a history of convicted sex offenders in both their employment and support.

greenginger
18-08-2011, 07:12 AM
I wouldn't want this to happen obviously but just hypothetically, if Vlad were to die, what would happen to Hearts? Who would they go to?


Most likely to Vlad's son Roman, remember him the Hearts chairman, who I'm sure will wish to repay Hearts fans and shareholders for the curtesy and respect they have shown him over the years.:greengrin

The man in Switzerland has made a great effort to unravel and explain Hearts and UBIG's financial maze but nowhere does he suggest which businesses UBIG have that make profits that keep the Jambos from going to the wall.

Kaiser1962
18-08-2011, 07:31 AM
A bit more insight to the yams finances-a tangled web i think you will find , also some good stuff regards where we are in the financial stakes along with others in the SPL.

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2011/08/romanovs-battle-for-hearts-and-minds.html


Good article.

Hearts TV income from finishing 3rd was £1.5m and Rangers from their CL involvement was £18m. Compare that with Blackburn, who narrowly avoided relegation last season and recently outbid Rangers for Goodwillie, who recieved £43m and you have to conclude anybody who thinks we can compete with that is deluded.

Interesting that all but two championship clubs also have more income than Hearts. Scary stuff.

Part/Time Supporter
18-08-2011, 07:41 AM
The article does beg the question why anyone (including Romanov) would chuck tens of millions at a Scottish football club, particularly outside the OF. Maybe 5-6 years ago you could have argued Champions League places, but those are now all but gone due to the fall in the coefficient.

It's hard to imagine that Romanov will sustain the same level of commitment over the next six years as he did in the first six. As the article points out, Hearts are in a financial no-mans land - spending way beyond their means to beat Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee United and so on (not that they've even managed that consistently!), but still far too much behind the OF to realistically compete with them.

sahib
18-08-2011, 12:48 PM
The article does beg the question why anyone (including Romanov) would chuck tens of millions at a Scottish football club, particularly outside the OF. Maybe 5-6 years ago you could have argued Champions League places, but those are now all but gone due to the fall in the coefficient.

It's hard to imagine that Romanov will sustain the same level of commitment over the next six years as he did in the first six. As the article points out, Hearts are in a financial no-mans land - spending way beyond their means to beat Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee United and so on (not that they've even managed that consistently!), but still far too much behind the OF to realistically compete with them.

Romanov's involvement with Hearts is a mystery to the casual observer. What is it all about?

Golden Bear
18-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Romanov's involvement with Hearts is a mystery to the casual observer. What is it all about?

The man craves publicity to feed his massive ego and Fatty Foulkes did a great job in selling him the proverbial pig in a poke.

I mean let's face it, why he did choose the Big Team when he supposedly could have been the Supremo in charge of Liverpool?

:rolleyes:

Woody1985
18-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Romanov's involvement with Hearts is a mystery to the casual observer. What is it all about? imo it was to give him some credibility in Britain to launch his bank here and it never materialised.Now that looks dead I'm not sure, perhaps throwing good money after bad in hope that they get the cl slot one day.A bit like people who gamble, another hundred on a 50-1 shot and I'll get back to break even...

Duffys13
18-08-2011, 01:13 PM
imo it was to give him some credibility in Britain to launch his bank here and it never materialised.Now that looks dead I'm not sure, perhaps throwing good money after bad in hope that they get the cl slot one day.A bit like people who gamble, another hundred on a 50-1 shot and I'll get back to break even...

A Champions League Qualifier would not pay much on the grand scheme that is Hearts debt.

Woody1985
18-08-2011, 01:41 PM
I know but one season in the group would give it a heafty dent but it'll never happen anyway so it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.