The case for the defence

[Hibbyradge]

There is none.

We lose so many goals through the centre it's embarrassing. I so want Hanlon to be a rock but he isn't. Yet.

Even Booth got ripped time after time.

What's going to change this? O'Hanlon?

[Hibstrooper]

After watching that if we were to make one more signing I hope it is a Centre Half!

[SneakersO'Toole]

Watching Stephens for the 4th goal made me cringe. Basic defending lacking.

No awareness, no positional sense, no clue.

[Bayern Bru]

It'd be nice if Paul Hanlon and David Stephens had been introduced to each other before the game. We need O'Hanlon there as the commanding centre half. Stephens is not the answer.

[Sir David Gray]

Watching Stephens for the 4th goal made me cringe. Basic defending lacking.

No awareness, no positional sense, no clue.


It'd be nice if Paul Hanlon and David Stephens had been introduced to each other before the game. We need O'Hanlon there as the commanding centre half. Stephens is not the answer.

I really don't see what Stephens brings to the team.

I understand that he's still fairly inexperienced at first team level but some of the errors that he makes are just so basic.

[Wotherspiniesta]

I actually feel a bit sorry for them. I think Stephens, Hanlon and Booth are all individually good players. (I've omitted Palsson because he's not a right back). However, as a unit there's no organisation and no communication. We need O'Hanlon back ASAP to add some much needed experience.

[SouthamptonHibs]

It'd be nice if Paul Hanlon and David Stephens had been introduced to each other before the game. We need O'Hanlon there as the commanding centre half. Stephens is not the answer.

The defence in general is too young! It must be the youngest in history to play top team football, we need at least two experienced defenders in the team at anyone time. Hanlon is overated he's been costing us goals for 3 years now, at least 2 were down to him today! Calderwood should stop playing Hanlon, Wotherspoon and Stevenson they are consistently our worst performers.

Plus points today, think Gary O will score more than 20 goals this year he looked good, roll on next week!

Hail Hail

[Ferryhibby]

TBH they wernt getting much protection from midfield either but we definately need a right back and another experienced centre half, Hanlon has been playing there for a couple of seasons now and still doesnt look strong enough, constantly getting pushed off the ball and positional sense lacking, stephens is just too laid back for this league, he needs to waken up, but rome wasnt built in a day and when the midfield get there act together and get fitter it could all fall into place........or fall apart.

[Iggy Pope]

The defending was catastrophic. I want Hanlon to do well too. I wish he would start soon. I want them all to do well, but........

Stephens was awful. Looks naturally slow to the point of being musclebound, positionally sloppy and for his bulk, easily beaten in the air.

As for all this garbage about Palsson being played out of position....if you can p1ss you can play right back. He had ample opportunity to show us this famed aggression of his by cleaning out the boy wide right but bolloxed it every time in his horredous first 45. His attitude is all wrong and if he doesn't want to be there then Calderwood should make sure he's not. Osbourne put him straight at one point and he's only been here 5 minutes.

Booth was rotten as well. Kilmarnock's width pulled us to pieces. Our back 4 was amongst the worst I have seen in our colours in 40 years of watching them and better finishing from Killie would have brought the real hiding the 'performance' deserved.

As for the goalie, he gets credit for two marvellous saves to keep us in it in the first half, but he lost 4 and failed to command his box at any time.

[Swindonfan]

Watched until the 4th goal then gave up. Killies wingers just seemed to have a free run today. I think spoony was played where he was to stop the left footed winger cutting inside, but he didnt really. You have to have some experiance in a back 4. You then get some organisation. Someone telling those around him what they should be doing, keeping them alert. On todays performance, need a right and left back to allow Booth to move into midfield and palson to do the same. And another centre back to play along side O'Hanlon when hes able to play. So wish Hibs looked like a solid unit. But today they looked like individuals. Just have to hope by end of transfer window CC has filled the holes and can put out a team that has balance.

[Beefster]

I predict that Hanlon will never be any better than Hogg. The leeway that he is given for being young and coming through the youth system is unbelievable.

[The Falcon]

I predict that Hanlon will never be any better than Hogg. The leeway that he is given for being young and coming through the youth system is unbelievable.

Yet Billy Stark has him as Captain of the U21's?

[Beefster]

Yet Billy Stark has him as Captain of the U21's?

He's captain of Hibs when Murray isn't playing and Hogg used to be captain. What's the point - only quality players are captains?

[truehibernian]

The defence would have been more resilient if we had kept a more flat line 5 man midfield......we never. We relied on the counter attack, which means when you lose possession high up the pitch, your defence and full backs are cruelly exposed. For me CC got it terribly wrong today.

If he is intent on playing the system he does, play a flatter midfield, with true right and left midfielders. Having Murray and Stevenson together today was hopeless.....they were marking no one and caused narrowness in midfield. Booth had zero help on his flank, Victor should be fined IMHO for being utterly lazy and constantly losing his man or allowing him inside. Dare I say, VP was doing his utmost to show CC he doesn't want to play there........hence we need, and always have done, a couple of right hard, mental bar stewards that the team are both scared of and respectful of.

[The Falcon]

He's captain of Hibs when Murray isn't playing and Hogg used to be captain. What's the point - only quality players are captains?

Billy Stark surely isn't giving him leeway for the fact he's came through the Hibs ranks. Why does he even pick him if he's that bad?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Not going into knee-jerk reactions or complicated strategy points, but CC came with the history of 4-5-1 and hard to beat. Well that is fine, but I am not sure that he has brought in the type of player that fits into that and even when we line up like that, it is all lop sided or players in make-do roles.

[Craig_in_Prague]

I'd sign another CH to play next to O'Hanlon........ Someone with a bit pace ideally, or at least, a good reader of the game.

We are slow and laboured, it's really pathetic. 1st half several times it went Murray to Booth to Hanlon to Stephens and then punt.

Midfield looked better when Osbourne came on, but before that it was cringeworthy.
A side that has Hanlon, Stevenson, Wotherspoon & Stephens starting most weeks, Is going to be in trouble.

Liked the look of the new guys, so with O'Hanlon to come back in + the new guys, we might be better.

But right now I'm a little stunned by what I seen this afternoon, a seriously poor side and one that looked like leaking goals every time killie came into hibs half......... And as for having the ball, we made it look incredibly hard even passing the ball once to a team mate.
As others have said, we looked way unfit compared to them too.

All in all, a dreadful day and fingers crossed things change around for the good, and pronto.

[Jonnyboy]

Poor O'Hanlon. The expectation level re this guy is frightening!

[MSK]

Poor O'Hanlon. The expectation level re this guy is frightening!Why did we sign him ..?

[Dinkydoo]

The main problem for us today was that the defence sat too far up the park and seemed to switch off every time the ball neared the halfway line - the average age/inexperience of the defence today was the reason for this IMO.

The 1st and 4th goals were prime examples of this and Stack probably should have done better at the free-kick for thier third.

We were a bloody shambles at the back today and were lucky to not have been beaten by more. Attacking wasn't too bad IMO, Sproule got a few good crosses in and O'Connor is obviously going to be a massive player for us this season.

However, no matter how well our attack minded players play we won't win many games with that kind of organisation at the back.

It's not all 'doom and gloom' but we desperately need some experience in defence - O'Hanlon may not be enough, he's only one man after all.

[sesoim]

I think Hanlon is struggling badly and has done so ever since he moved to CB. Stephens is too casual. And I agree they sat too far forward today. Also, Murray, Stevenson and co did little to help them. I am also worried that playing with a bunch of losers is starting to effect Booth. Remember Wotherspoon looked a great prospect at RB two year ago, but now he is running about like a headless chicken in an alien position.

We have some decent players but Calderwood hasn't got a clue how to organize or motivate them. I don't see thing improving unless Petrie throws millions at him or, preferably, lets him leave and gets a more suitable manager in.

[Jonnyboy]

Why did we sign him ..?

To lend experience in the centre of defence K although all he's managed so far is to keep the medics busy. Reason I posted what I did was because folk seem to think that his return will cure all ills.

[hibsbollah]

To lend experience in the centre of defence K although all he's managed so far is to keep the medics busy. Reason I posted what I did was because folk seem to think that his return will cure all ills.

Personally I think Stephens is going to be a player. Whether our fans can wait for him is another matter.

[Jonnyboy]

Personally I think Stephens is going to be a player. Whether our fans can wait for him is another matter.

I agree with you. Played very well against Sunderland when coping with Gyan. He's young and will make mistakes, just like Booth except Callum is allowed them it seems :wink:

[JimBHibees]

If we are seriously in for Mark Reynolds yesterday kind of outlined why. Hanlon's positioning for the first goal was pub league IMO. Paul will become a player however I think he needs some competition in that position and would bring in and put Reynolds straight in at left centre back.

[IWasThere2016]

Poor O'Hanlon. The expectation level re this guy is frightening!

I think he and Hanlon will be fine .. but we MUST get a RB very soon.

[MSK]

To lend experience in the centre of defence K although all he's managed so far is to keep the medics busy. Reason I posted what I did was because folk seem to think that his return will cure all ills.Well I hope its a start J ..got to be better than the current pairing ..if anything he brings experience, although difficult to judge his full potential on the back of half a game v Celtic ..:agree:

[Hibeescott]

Its amazing the amount of folk on here who will praise players one week, then slate them to death the next week!

Few points to make:

- Hanlon is a good defender.
- Stephens makes positional errors at times, we know that, but he has the potential to be a very good player.
- Booth is great going forward, very comfortable on the ball, but defending isnt the strong part of his game. Again, he makes postional errors.
- Palsson is being played outwith his 'favoured' position, but those who went to inverness and sunderland (not many at all!) would know he played very well at RB.

For everyone who is slating them, the same 4 players kept a clean sheet against Sunderlands first team who then went on to draw at Anfield. Have they just became bad players overnight? No they haven't! get a grip!

We have the youngest back 4 I have seen, by a long way. None of them are older than 22 remember. O'hanlon will help. But even then, young players will be inconsistent. This season we have got to accept that with such young defenders, we will have good days (clean sheet against sunderland), and days like yesterday.

[hibsbollah]

Its amazing the amount of folk on here who will praise players one week, then slate them to death the next week!

Few points to make:

- Hanlon is a good defender.
- Stephens makes positional errors at times, we know that, but he has the potential to be a very good player.
- Booth is great going forward, very comfortable on the ball, but defending isnt the strong part of his game. Again, he makes postional errors.
- Palsson is being played outwith his 'favoured' position, but those who went to inverness and sunderland (not many at all!) would know he played very well at RB.

For everyone who is slating them, the same 4 players kept a clean sheet against Sunderlands first team who then went on to draw at Anfield. Have they just became bad players overnight? No they haven't! get a grip!

We have the youngest back 4 I have seen, by a long way. None of them are older than 22 remember. O'hanlon will help. But even then, young players will be inconsistent. This season we have got to accept that with such young defenders, we will have good days (clean sheet against sunderland), and days like yesterday.

Good post.

[PeterboroHibee]

Personally I think Stephens is going to be a player. Whether our fans can wait for him is another matter.

Agree with that, hes big and physical, and has shown that hes capable of producing good performances. But he is very young and has played a handful of games for Hibs. Needs time to learn without getting hassle off the fans every time we lose. Dont think hes ready to be the back up CB though, we really need players brought in for the defence as Hanlon, Stephens and O'Hanlon isnt enough.

As for Hanlon, think hes a very good CB. While hes been in the first team squad for a while now, the morons saying he isnt a good defender must be forgetting he is only 21, hes going to make mistakes, thats why he should have experienced players around him, guiding him through games when we are struggling. He shouldnt, imo, be the most experienced defender in the team, and that comes down to the fact we havent signed another more experience CB. I also doubt he would be the U21 captain if he wasnt any good.

[Arch Stanton]

Good post.


Good post. :agree:

[hibsbollah]

Good post. :agree:

Its nice to be nice:greengrin

[down-the-slope]

Its amazing the amount of folk on here who will praise players one week, then slate them to death the next week!

Few points to make:

- Hanlon is a good defender.
- Stephens makes positional errors at times, we know that, but he has the potential to be a very good player.
- Booth is great going forward, very comfortable on the ball, but defending isnt the strong part of his game. Again, he makes postional errors.
- Palsson is being played outwith his 'favoured' position, but those who went to inverness and sunderland (not many at all!) would know he played very well at RB.

For everyone who is slating them, the same 4 players kept a clean sheet against Sunderlands first team who then went on to draw at Anfield. Have they just became bad players overnight? No they haven't! get a grip!

We have the youngest back 4 I have seen, by a long way. None of them are older than 22 remember. O'hanlon will help. But even then, young players will be inconsistent. This season we have got to accept that with such young defenders, we will have good days (clean sheet against sunderland), and days like yesterday.

Said pretty much the same on another thread......consistency is what the defence don't have...ability to be good enough in this league they do...time needed to see if players and backroom staff can create the level on consistenct that will get us where we want to be

[Iggy Pope]

Its amazing the amount of folk on here who will praise players one week, then slate them to death the next week!

Few points to make:

- Hanlon is a good defender.
- Stephens makes positional errors at times, we know that, but he has the potential to be a very good player.
- Booth is great going forward, very comfortable on the ball, but defending isnt the strong part of his game. Again, he makes postional errors.
- Palsson is being played outwith his 'favoured' position, but those who went to inverness and sunderland (not many at all!) would know he played very well at RB.

For everyone who is slating them, the same 4 players kept a clean sheet against Sunderlands first team who then went on to draw at Anfield. Have they just became bad players overnight? No they haven't! get a grip!

We have the youngest back 4 I have seen, by a long way. None of them are older than 22 remember. O'hanlon will help. But even then, young players will be inconsistent. This season we have got to accept that with such young defenders, we will have good days (clean sheet against sunderland), and days like yesterday.

The Sunderland game is irrelevant. About as relevant as the likelihood of us getting a 1-1 at Anfield on Saturday. Unless you think that comparison means we might have!
Yesterday was bread and butter and they were found wanting. I thought they stank. Don't over-egg their youth. Hanlon has been around a while, Palsson came from a big club and started well enough last season and should be able to play RB comfortably whether it's his favourite position or not. And both he and Stephens have the physical attributes to do a lot better than they are.

Wee tip - find out what you can about James Dayton. You might find he has less senior appearances and at a far lower standard than the boy he ripped up for arse paper yesterday.

Those that witnessed yesterday (and you might well be one) are frustrated and the thread asks a question about the back 4 so you are going to get some answers.
Would you prefer ratings instead? :wink:

[ahibby]

Inexperience in a defence is easily exploited. Going forward all of the back four are fairly well to well equipped. IMO its easier to attack than it is to defend and inexperience shows up more in defenders than it does in attackers. Just look back at our Joe Bakers, Peter Cormacks, Kenny Millers et al who all started off their careers at a young age and all grabbed goals on their debuts IIRC, but how many young defenders can we point to and say they had a great debut in defence? Lets not kid ourselves that the problem in defence isn't inexperience, that is exactly what it is. There is no quick cure, they can't become experienced over night. We have to include atleast two good and experienced defenders in the back four. O'Hanlon is one. If we think we can defend poorly (in an inexperienced way) and try and score more than the opponents then we better think again.

[truehibernian]

Inexperience in a defence is easily exploited. Going forward all of the back four are fairly well to well equipped. IMO its easier to attack than it is to defend and inexperience shows up more in defenders than it does in attackers. Just look back at our Joe Bakers, Peter Cormacks, Kenny Millers et al who all started off their careers at a young age and all grabbed goals on their debuts IIRC, but how many young defenders can we point to and say they had a great debut in defence? Lets not kid ourselves that the problem in defence isn't inexperience, that is exactly what it is. There is no quick cure, they can't become experienced over night. We have to include atleast two good and experienced defenders in the back four. O'Hanlon is one. If we think we can defend poorly (in an inexperienced way) and try and score more than the opponents then we better think again.

Very good, sensible post. Totally agree :agree:

I think we are also expecting a lot from young Callum Booth. Terrific young talent who is right at the beginning of his trade and learning all the time. This season, albeit very early into it, I am beginning to see Callum as a far more effective left sided midfielder. Really good player in the opposing half I think. Good touch and control too. The thing slightly lacking from his game as full back is pace. Positional sense you can learn and have it coached into you. He had a bad day on Sunday, nothing more than that. His good days will far and away outweigh the bad ones.

[Hibeescott]

The Sunderland game is irrelevant. About as relevant as the likelihood of us getting a 1-1 at Anfield on Saturday. Unless you think that comparison means we might have!
Yesterday was bread and butter and they were found wanting. I thought they stank. Don't over-egg their youth. Hanlon has been around a while, Palsson came from a big club and started well enough last season and should be able to play RB comfortably whether it's his favourite position or not. And both he and Stephens have the physical attributes to do a lot better than they are.

Wee tip - find out what you can about James Dayton. You might find he has less senior appearances and at a far lower standard than the boy he ripped up for arse paper yesterday.

Those that witnessed yesterday (and you might well be one) are frustrated and the thread asks a question about the back 4 so you are going to get some answers.
Would you prefer ratings instead? :wink:

For a start, don't patronise me. I didnt suggest that we might have got a 1-1 draw at Anfield.

And how is the Sunderland game irrelevant exactly? In that game we played the exact same back 4 as against Kilmarnock, therefore making it completely relevant to my point! My point being that such a young defence will have good games and bad games, we need to understand that and not get on their back instantly. Too many fans did that last season and IMO played a major part in the teams performance because they all became scared to get on the ball at all!

To cover your other points. I agree, Hanlon has played a fair number of first team games. But with regard to the other points, so what? Palsson has come from a big club? Do I need to go through the list of players we have had who came from 'big clubs' and are utter gash? Just as that doesnt guarentee a good player, it doesnt mean he has any more experience of first team football than someone who has come through our youth system.

And physical attributes to do better than they are?? There is no problem with Stephens for example winning headers, that comes from his physical attributes. The problem is his position sense at times. 'Physical attributes' has absolutely no baring on a defenders positional sense what so ever. He could not have good 'physical attributes', but be goal side and in the right place at the right time. Thats what he needs to work on.

[Hibeescott]

Very good, sensible post. Totally agree :agree:

I think we are also expecting a lot from young Callum Booth. Terrific young talent who is right at the beginning of his trade and learning all the time. This season, albeit very early into it, I am beginning to see Callum as a far more effective left sided midfielder. Really good player in the opposing half I think. Good touch and control too. The thing slightly lacking from his game as full back is pace. Positional sense you can learn and have it coached into you. He had a bad day on Sunday, nothing more than that. His good days will far and away outweigh the bad ones.

I agree with the fact that we maybe could play Callum at left midfield. I think it would give us better balance playing a left footer there rather than Wotherspoon.

I was speaking to Billy Brown recently regarding Callum and he said that as a manager playing against Hibs, the first thing he would do in terms of his attacking line up is to put a fast, tricky winger on the right up against Callum. He think he is a great prospect, very good on the ball, but suspect defensively.

[patlowe]

Every one of the defenders that lined up on Sunday is a good prospect, of that I have no doubt. Sunday's game (and the subsequent reaction of fans) could do serious damage to their confidence and development. That's arguably CC's fault for playing them all in defence simultaneously without any experienced players to help. It's funny though, last week people were on here saying we were sufficiently covered at centre-back. Many may be re-evaluating that statement.

[Stevie Reid]

I agree with the fact that we maybe could play Callum at left midfield. I think it would give us better balance playing a left footer there rather than Wotherspoon.

I was speaking to Billy Brown recently regarding Callum and he said that as a manager playing against Hibs, the first thing he would do in terms of his attacking line up is to put a fast, tricky winger on the right up against Callum. He think he is a great prospect, very good on the ball, but suspect defensively.

Hearts will do exactly what Killie did and play two wingers against us, most likely Driver and Templeton, and I rather fear what they may do to us. My Dad made the point last season that Booth is rather a weak tackler and I think he is right - no doubt CB has lots of ability and should go on to become a very good player, but those who believe that we will get more than the £5.5M that we got for Scott Brown are way off the mark IMO. FWIW, that is not a knee jerk reaction to Sunday, and I very much hope that those with great expectations are proved right.

A key point about Sunday is also the lack of help that CB got from Wotherspoon, who was awful, the assist aside - he is very lazy defensively, gives away stupid fouls and cannot utilise his excellent skills going forward often enough. I think DW may be one of those players who has to drop down a level before he can fully blossom, like a Paul Hartley for example - I would be amazed if he cannot harness the great ability he has with both feet by the time his peak years come round, but I fear that it may not be at Hibs. Again, I hope I am wrong.

Hanlon had a very bad day but I think that he will be good enough to remain in our first team for a few seasons at least - I haven't seen enough of Stephens to pass proper judgement yet, and I have real worries that Palsson's early promise has disappeared, largely due to the fact that his attitude seems to be piss poor.

O'Hanlon looked good against Celtic, lets hope he can marshall the defence effectively.

[Iggy Pope]

For a start, don't patronise me. I didnt suggest that we might have got a 1-1 draw at Anfield.

And how is the Sunderland game irrelevant exactly? In that game we played the exact same back 4 as against Kilmarnock, therefore making it completely relevant to my point! My point being that such a young defence will have good games and bad games, we need to understand that and not get on their back instantly. Too many fans did that last season and IMO played a major part in the teams performance because they all became scared to get on the ball at all!

To cover your other points. I agree, Hanlon has played a fair number of first team games. But with regard to the other points, so what? Palsson has come from a big club? Do I need to go through the list of players we have had who came from 'big clubs' and are utter gash? Just as that doesnt guarentee a good player, it doesnt mean he has any more experience of first team football than someone who has come through our youth system.

And physical attributes to do better than they are?? There is no problem with Stephens for example winning headers, that comes from his physical attributes. The problem is his position sense at times. 'Physical attributes' has absolutely no baring on a defenders positional sense what so ever. He could not have good 'physical attributes', but be goal side and in the right place at the right time. Thats what he needs to work on.

For a start? Oh dear.
So What? What kind of response is that unless you're 12? (And you might be of course).
How was I patronising you? Behave yourself. The Sunderland game remains irrelevant as it was a meaningless friendly. Nothing more.
I don't get on the players backs so don't assume that my opinion on here becomes immediately vocal at the games. But should we wrap them up in cottoon wool and pretend that Sunday's doing never happened?

So......You said in your post that Hanlon was a 'good defender'. You don't back that up with anything but it's time he was doing just that. I want him to do well, trust me. He needs to fill his boots and fill them quick. I haven't seen much to convince me that he is indeed a 'good defender'.

Stephens does not convince me as he is a big lad that somehow fails to use his attributes. You seen him bursting anyone in a tackle yet? And he is not commanding in the air. At all. Positionally he is awful. He needs to work on a lot and we don't have much time. Again, I want him to do well, but soon.

My point about Palsson which I have made elsewhere is that he needs to knuckle down and play RB if that's where he is selected to play. He came from a big club, trained with world class players and has played at a decent level with Iceland U-21s and is not a boy anymore. If he cannot be arsed he needs emptied.

Defending not being a strong point of Calum's game is a pretty big concern for a Left Back. I know he is young and like everyone else, I enjoy his offensive play but left back is where he plays. I seen him play there for the 19s on a lot of occasions. Presumably he played there while out on loan in the lower leagues. He came back to us as a left back and that's what he needs to start being.

I don't buy their youthfullness as an excuse for their performance on Sunday. They are all pro footballers and all made their debuts long enough ago and are making a good living from their jobs.

If it's to be about youth, learning and experience, any thoughts on my point about the lesser experienced Killie winger performing as well as he did? You seem to have passed on that when covering my other points in your 'for a start' response.

[Hibeescott]

For a start? Oh dear.
So What? What kind of response is that unless you're 12? (And you might be of course).
How was I patronising you? Behave yourself. The Sunderland game remains irrelevant as it was a meaningless friendly. Nothing more.
I don't get on the players backs so don't assume that my opinion on here becomes immediately vocal at the games. But should we wrap them up in cottoon wool and pretend that Sunday's doing never happened?

So......You said in your post that Hanlon was a 'good defender'. You don't back that up with anything but it's time he was doing just that. I want him to do well, trust me. He needs to fill his boots and fill them quick. I haven't seen much to convince me that he is indeed a 'good defender'.

Stephens does not convince me as he is a big lad that somehow fails to use his attributes. You seen him bursting anyone in a tackle yet? And he is not commanding in the air. At all. Positionally he is awful. He needs to work on a lot and we don't have much time. Again, I want him to do well, but soon.

My point about Palsson which I have made elsewhere is that he needs to knuckle down and play RB if that's where he is selected to play. He came from a big club, trained with world class players and has played at a decent level with Iceland U-21s and is not a boy anymore. If he cannot be arsed he needs emptied.

Defending not being a strong point of Calum's game is a pretty big concern for a Left Back. I know he is young and like everyone else, I enjoy his offensive play but left back is where he plays. I seen him play there for the 19s on a lot of occasions. Presumably he played there while out on loan in the lower leagues. He came back to us as a left back and that's what he needs to start being.

I don't buy their youthfullness as an excuse for their performance on Sunday. They are all pro footballers and all made their debuts long enough ago and are making a good living from their jobs.

If it's to be about youth, learning and experience, any thoughts on my point about the lesser experienced Killie winger performing as well as he did? You seem to have passed on that when covering my other points in your 'for a start' response.

I am not going to get into a slagging match. 'So what' was because the point you made doesnt actually back up what you were saying. Just because guys play at big clubs as a youth, doesnt mean they train with 'world class' players for starters. I would imagine that Palsson often trained with the reserve side who will not train with the first team squad. So that makes your argument invalid.

IMO, even though it was a friendly, a bad defence wouldnt have kept a clean sheet against Sunderland.

Dont back it up with anything..........Hanlon was Hibernian Player of the year 2010-2011.

I have said on numerous occasions on here that Stephens makes major positional errors, I argued that after his performance against Inverness. The fact that because of his 'physical attributes' he should be performing better, I dont agree with. You could go round to amateur games on a Sunday morning and find plenty guys with good 'physical attributes', that doesnt mean in anyway that they are or should be good players as a result.

I have also posted above exactly what you just said about Booth. However, he actually played left midfield quite a bit while out on loan at Brechin.

The fact they are making a good living from it doesnt mean they wont make mistakes. Booth made his debut what 7 months ago? How many games has Stephens played for us? 8 starts according to the website, very few.

My honest thoughts on your point about the Killie winger is that they show little understanding of the game, and especially for defending. A young player coming through as a winger/attacker, is very different to a young player coming through as a defender. A young winger with pace and a few tricks can get away without a great deal of experience. There are scores and scores of young attacking players who come in and can make an immediate impact. I do not believe we see as many young defenders doing the same, yes there are exceptions. IMO, experience and know-how is much more important for any young defender than it is for an attacking player.

[Iggy Pope]

I am not going to get into a slagging match. 'So what' was because the point you made doesnt actually back up what you were saying. Just because guys play at big clubs as a youth, doesnt mean they train with 'world class' players for starters. I would imagine that Palsson often trained with the reserve side who will not train with the first team squad. So that makes your argument invalid.

Imagine what you like. It is not what he said when he arrived. Steven Gerard apparently offered him plenty of advice about moving. And Palsson is way beyond being a 'youth' and youthfulness and lack of experience seems to be your whole defence for what has been widely recognised as an abject and miserable performance on Sunday. But you've decided my argument is somehow 'invalid'. Away and *****.

IMO, even though it was a friendly, a bad defence wouldnt have kept a clean sheet against Sunderland.

That's your opinion, in mine it was meaningless. A bad defence lost 4 on Sunday. No question.

Dont back it up with anything..........Hanlon was Hibernian Player of the year 2010-2011.

Not mine he wasn't. I suppose someone had to get it though in a season of utter despair. Are you an admirer of wee Lewis? He has a few awards like this. I sat at his table not long ago when he was the Young Player of the Year. Looks a wee bit distant from that now. However, like I say, I hope Paul Hanlon improves. I badly want him to.

I have said on numerous occasions on here that Stephens makes major positional errors, I argued that after his performance against Inverness. The fact that because of his 'physical attributes' he should be performing better, I dont agree with. You could go round to amateur games on a Sunday morning and find plenty guys with good 'physical attributes', that doesnt mean in anyway that they are or should be good players as a result.

I played Sunday amateur for 20 seasons. I don't see the relevance in your argument. It is weak and so by the look of it, is he. I just want him to win some tackles, clear some headers and burst a few opposing forwards like a good Central defender should.

I have also posted above exactly what you just said about Booth. However, he actually played left midfield quite a bit while out on loan at Brechin.

We agree on this then, although I'm not sure what 'quite a bit' amounts to. He played in a good U-19 side at Left Back, he went out on loan as a left back and came back as a left back.

The fact they are making a good living from it doesnt mean they wont make mistakes. Booth made his debut what 7 months ago? How many games has Stephens played for us? 8 starts according to the website, very few.

The whole thread relates to their performance on Sunday and whether it was defensible. You think yes based on the fact that alll 4 of them are young. I think a 4-1 towsing off Killie speaks for itself.

My honest thoughts on your point about the Killie winger is that they show little understanding of the game, and especially for defending. A young player coming through as a winger/attacker, is very different to a young player coming through as a defender. A young winger with pace and a few tricks can get away without a great deal of experience. There are scores and scores of young attacking players who come in and can make an immediate impact. I do not believe we see as many young defenders doing the same, yes there are exceptions. IMO, experience and know-how is much more important for any young defender than it is for an attacking player.

Garbage. You may not want to get into a slagging much but you come away with that. I know plenty about defending and will show you my medals if you like. What I do know is that full backs should defend first and foremost and if they get ripped off a rookie winger they need to take a look at themselves and improve immediately, not through time. Experience and know how? If you're good enough you are old enough. Play as a team, win as a team, lose as a team. The Killie winger has had neglible first team starts and many of those are at non-league level as well as having the start to his career ravaged by a cruciate injury. Add gumption to that 'pace and a few tricks'.