Scottish Premier League clubs face going bust

[SteveHFC]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14467953.stm

[HibeeMG]

So basically:

Rangers are buggered unless they get Champions League money.

Celtic are buggered if the Irish billionaire money dries up (which it won't)

Killie and Hearts are totally buggered

The rest of us will become selling clubs (nothing new there!)

[CentreLine]

"My message to the fans though would be - if you want your club to survive, you are going to have to accept that they have to reduce the wage bill and sell their best players when they become of worth," said Glenn.

:agree: Fair point.

He should also have said that fans have to accept that the recent resurgence of violence at and around stadiums is driving away the fans that are the life blood of the game and will ultimately drive teams like ours to the wall.

[CB_NO3]

"My message to the fans though would be - if you want your club to survive, you are going to have to accept that they have to reduce the wage bill and sell their best players when they become of worth," said Glenn.

:agree: Fair point.

He should also have said that fans have to accept that the recent resurgence of violence at and around stadiums is driving away the fans that are the life blood of the game and will ultimately drive teams like ours to the wall.

Violence in Scottish football hardly ever happens. Infact the number of arrests at Scottish football games is very low compared to England, Germany, Greece and Italy and so on (mind as a % we have the highest number of fans that attend games in Europe per population), so your making a big deal out of nothing. Am not saying wee fights dont break out now and again, thats only natural. Its guys like you that make a big deal out of nothing and give Scottish football a bad name. This small scrap that broke out against Sunderland happens every week, in every city in England. Am not saying its right but it does.

[Mikey]

There's an easy way to make sure that Hibs don't suffer financially.

Go to games.

[Ozyhibby]

Lunch time kick offs and Sunday games are what is driving me away. The money we get from TV barely covers the money lost from lower crowds at these games.

[dangermouse]

Lunch time kick offs and Sunday games are what is driving me away. The money we get from TV barely covers the money lost from lower crowds at these games.

Spot on. It's this that Neil Doncaster should be addressing but as long as the OF are happy the rest of us can just take it up the :asshole:

[Dashing Bob S]

Violence in Scottish football hardly ever happens. Infact the number of arrests at Scottish football games is very low compared to England, Germany, Greece and Italy and so on (mind as a % we have the highest number of fans that attend games in Europe per population), so your making a big deal out of nothing. Am not saying wee fights dont break out now and again, thats only natural. Its guys like you that make a big deal out of nothing and give Scottish football a bad name. This small scrap that broke out against Sunderland happens every week, in every city in England. Am not saying its right but it does.

Have been going regularly to Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham, Fulham, Orient, Millwall, QPR, Brentford for the last twenty years and the only bother I've ever seen in this time has been at Millwall, and then in the Old Kent Road, as although a spooky place, tends to be well-policed on approach. The idea of there being regular fights outside the Emirates or Stamford Bridge involving the advertising executives and college lectures who make up the bulk of the attending football fans in these stadiums is laughable. The worse it gets is London derbies when a rival support are kept in the tube station then marched to the ground by police and you get some rival songs and a few hand gestures from behind crush barriers.

[Famous Fiver]

Cost is my issue.

I just can't afford a season ticket and I can't manage £22 and £28 for occasional visits with all the add on costs.

Sky is out of my reach so BBC highlights is as close as I normally get.

Hopefully Berwick Rangers league cup tie will come into my price range.

[Gus]

Have been going regularly to Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham, Fulham, Orient, Millwall, QPR, Brentford for the last twenty years and the only bother I've ever seen in this time has been at Millwall, and then in the Old Kent Road, as although a spooky place, tends to be well-policed on approach. The idea of there being regular fights outside the Emirates or Stamford Bridge involving the advertising executives and college lectures who make up the bulk of the attending football fans in these stadiums is laughable. The worse it gets is London derbies when a rival support are kept in the tube station then marched to the ground by police and you get some rival songs and a few hand gestures from behind crush barriers.

Spot on. I went to games down south for many years and didn't witness any trouble. People seem to what to blame alot on the English to wipe over the "minor" fights in Scotland, Easter Road

Football in ANY country will sadly be associated with a small band of donkey's who claim to be fans fighting for the badge when actually they are not fans at all and people that no one would want associated to their club.

Back to the OP tho

It has not told us anything we didn't know already. People can see that TV is ruining attendance's but I don't agree with that as the clubs that really rely on tv money (everyone except the OF) are not on telly that much, so the fans should be at most games.

But as we have seen, due to rubbish football, results, lack of investment fans are not turning up

catch 22 for clubs imo

[Gatecrasher]

The league's chief executive Neil Doncaster says Scottish football is posting positive results in a very tough market.
"We are in the middle of a world economic downturn. That is the reality," he told BBC Scotland.
"It is hitting supporters in the pocket but our clubs are responding to that with competitive pricing packages.
"The facts are that this report shows our clubs making a profit for the season before last.
"That is incredibly positive."


He's either :crazy: or :ostrich: but i know he's an :asshole:

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

There's an easy way to make sure that Hibs don't suffer financially.

Go to games.


Or just hand over your cash and don't expect anything back in return, which is where we were last season?

[Phil D. Rolls]

"My message to the fans though would be - if you want your club to survive, you are going to have to accept that they have to reduce the wage bill and sell their best players when they become of worth," said Glenn.

:agree: Fair point.

He should also have said that fans have to accept that the recent resurgence of violence at and around stadiums is driving away the fans that are the life blood of the game and will ultimately drive teams like ours to the wall.

Do you have any evidence for that? I'd have thought it's just as likely the economy and admission charges are to blame. Has there really been a massive upsurge in violence at games? Are there figures to back that up?

[Jack]

I often said the biggest threat to Hibs existence is the demise of a few ‘big’ clubs in Scotland – and that includes them across the city. If one goes it could be like a house of cards.

3 clubs made a profit, but that didn’t include us – I thought we were in our Xth year in profit? :confused: – so that’s 4 of us in the SPL plus maybe a couple of clubs from lower divisions that might survive. Or could these 4 clubs be admitted to the English leagues – not, IMO, if two of these are the OF.

[alexedwards]

"It is hitting supporters in the pocket but our clubs are responding to that with competitive pricing packages.

Sober up! Doncaster always was and always will be a complete ass. This is the same guy who tried to push
through a 10-team league with 90% of fans opposed when the article indicates most club income comes
from fans through the gate and told us "we've done our homework". Get him out fast! :confused:

[Mikey]

Or just hand over your cash and don't expect anything back in return, which is where we were last season?

I got a season ticket for my money and went to the games.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I often said the biggest threat to Hibs existence is the demise of a few ‘big’ clubs in Scotland – and that includes them across the city. If one goes it could be like a house of cards.

3 clubs made a profit, but that didn’t include us – I thought we were in our Xth year in profit? :confused: – so that’s 4 of us in the SPL plus maybe a couple of clubs from lower divisions that might survive. Or could these 4 clubs be admitted to the English leagues – not, IMO, if two of these are the OF.

Hibs made a trading loss that was covered by selling player(s). That's been the position every year since the 2007.

[Arch Stanton]

You'd figure that would be an end to the 'speculate to accumulate' arguments.

But it won't be. :agree:

[Saorsa]

I got a season ticket for my money and went to the games.So did I but I got more enjoyment out of my recent visit tae the dentist for a filling and paying for that. A lot of people are not going tae keep handing over the amounts being asked if what we got last season is the best they can hope for, simple as that.

At least Doncaster and his 10 team league got kicked in tae touch or that clown would have driven even more people away.

[marinello59]

So did I but I got more enjoyment out of my recent visit tae the dentist for a filling and paying for that. A lot of people are not going tae keep handing over the amounts being asked if what we got last season is the best they can hope for, simple as that.

At least Doncaster and his 10 team league got kicked in tae touch or that clown would have driven even more people away.

Your dentist must offer extras or something then.
No matter how bad the fitba gets I always enjoy the day out. I can't say that about my trips to the dentist. I may swap Dentists now though. :greengrin

[Saorsa]

Your dentist must offer extras or something then.
No matter how bad the fitba gets I always enjoy the day out. I can't say that about my trips to the dentist. I may swap Dentists now though. :greengrinI always enjoy the rest of day out :wink: :greengrin it was the 90 minutes in the middle that had me reaching for the rusty nails tae gouge my eyes out.

Think my dentist (she's Portugese and something nice tae look at while you're in the chair) may be a bit out the road for you though unless you went before the fitba :greengrin

[Jack]

Hibs made a trading loss that was covered by selling player(s). That's been the position every year since the 2007.

Not wanting to split hairs – ok I am … the bottom line of the accounts still showed a profit didn’t it, so it’s a profit! :agree: :greengrin

And as you say we’ve been able to manage it over the last 4 years. Maybe not the best position to be in but one that appears to relatively stable.

A concern might be, with the players contracts shortening, the balance between our club getting decent playing time and resell value is narrowing all the time; i.e. a player on a 3 year contract means we can get 2 maybe 2 ½ years out them and still get cash when they go. A 2 year contact means we don’t get the benefit of the player for so long and a 1 year contract means making money from them is virtually impossible.

Our last two managers have said shorter contracts are their preference so I don’t see how that fits with our need to stay solvent.

Although a third aspect to also consider might be the transfer market has crashed for almost every club in Europe.

[Albion Hibs]

Am I right in reading that each club only gets around £1m per year for the Sky/broadcasting. In which case we would need to sell circa 2,500 addition season tickets to cover this revenue. If we told them to bolt games would be on saturdays at reasonable times.

I understand with it sponsers may argue they wont get as much exposure but I think it is safe to say that the benefit we get from Sky is minimal and I feel pretty confident to say that, if my above thinking is right we would get an easy additional 2,500 season ticket sales through saturday games at 3pm.

[patlowe]

Not wanting to split hairs – ok I am … the bottom line of the accounts still showed a profit didn’t it, so it’s a profit! :agree: :greengrin

And as you say we’ve been able to manage it over the last 4 years. Maybe not the best position to be in but one that appears to relatively stable.

A concern might be, with the players contracts shortening, the balance between our club getting decent playing time and resell value is narrowing all the time; i.e. a player on a 3 year contract means we can get 2 maybe 2 ½ years out them and still get cash when they go. A 2 year contact means we don’t get the benefit of the player for so long and a 1 year contract means making money from them is virtually impossible.

Our last two managers have said shorter contracts are their preference so I don’t see how that fits with our need to stay solvent.

Although a third aspect to also consider might be the transfer market has crashed for almost every club in Europe.

One solution to that would be cheaper, long-term deals for younger players we develop and sell on, and shorter deals for older, more experienced players that come and go but shore up the squad for a year or two. Not sure if that's what they have in mind though!

[Jack]

Am I right in reading that each club only gets around £1m per year for the Sky/broadcasting. In which case we would need to sell circa 2,500 addition season tickets to cover this revenue. If we told them to bolt games would be on saturdays at reasonable times.

I understand with it sponsers may argue they wont get as much exposure but I think it is safe to say that the benefit we get from Sky is minimal and I feel pretty confident to say that, if my above thinking is right we would get an easy additional 2,500 season ticket sales through saturday games at 3pm.

Not quite astonishing but a bit of an eye opener for those who hadn't thought about it before.

TV pays £1m and controls when the games are played.

Supporters pay c£4m have hee haw say and are continually inconvenienced by awkward TV match times meaning STs cant always be used – often losing one of the benefits of having a ST in the first place.

The less moveaboutability of match times was one of the things that was in the package that was the 10 team SPL. I cant recall hearing / reading anything about the other elements of that package.

[Albion Hibs]

One solution to that would be cheaper, long-term deals for younger players we develop and sell on, and shorter deals for older, more experienced players that come and go but shore up the squad for a year or two. Not sure if that's what they have in mind though!

Would this not mean we end up with a huge squad of younger players coming up each year on longer deals that potentially do nothing i.e. a massive % of the Under 19's squad in hope that one of them comes good and leaves us with long contracts on the ones that are no use - there was more than a few of them released over the past 12 months. In addition if our more experienced players have a good season they will be off.

Cant see that working / being appealing to any club or player.

[patlowe]

Would this not mean we end up with a huge squad of younger players coming up each year on longer deals that potentially do nothing i.e. a massive % of the Under 19's squad in hope that one of them comes good and leaves us with long contracts on the ones that are no use - there was more than a few of them released over the past 12 months. In addition if our more experienced players have a good season they will be off.

Cant see that working / being appealing to any club or player.

I'm not saying sign every youngster on a 10-year deal, I just doubt that our recent managers would not want exciting prospects on long-term contracts. It makes sense to put youngsters such as Fletcher, Brown etc on long deals while being slightly more conservative about journeyman-type players, particularly when we put so much stock in our youth system.

[--------]

Your dentist must offer extras or something then.
No matter how bad the fitba gets I always enjoy the day out. I can't say that about my trips to the dentist. I may swap Dentists now though. :greengrin


I'd be really worried if I started enjoying going to the dentist. :agree:


The football at ER last season was pretty poor, but as you say, by the time I meet up with my son, have lunch and watch a bit of the mid-day game on TV in the pub, head round to the ground, talk, take in the game, wander back to the car and so on, it's a good afternoon out and I enjoy it.

The problems I see are the continual dominance of the OF which the SPL ought to be addressing for the good of the whole League, but won't because they're scared silly of offending them; the costs which have been rising steadily and the quality of the 'product' which has been going down just as steadily; and the ineptitude of the game's organising bodies to promote it in a sensible, effective manner throughout the country.

While they're not without their own faults and problems, it's my clear impression that the American football, baseball, basketball and hockey leagues do actually understand that unless the League as a whole is healthy, no one's healthy. The SPL/SFL/SFA crowd are ONLY interested in promoting the welfare of two teams - the rest of us don't matter. This goes for the people who run the game, the people who report on the game, and sadly, the people who sponsor and finance the game.

[jacomo]

"It is hitting supporters in the pocket but our clubs are responding to that with competitive pricing packages.

Sober up! Doncaster always was and always will be a complete ass. This is the same guy who tried to push
through a 10-team league with 90% of fans opposed when the article indicates most club income comes
from fans through the gate and told us "we've done our homework". Get him out fast! :confused:

:agree:

[patlowe]

The problems I see are the continual dominance of the OF which the SPL ought to be addressing for the good of the whole League, but won't because they're scared silly of offending them; the costs which have been rising steadily and the quality of the 'product' which has been going down just as steadily; and the ineptitude of the game's organising bodies to promote it in a sensible, effective manner throughout the country.
.

Is there any scope for ever getting rid of the outrageous 11-1 voting system the SPL has? Or would they have to vote on it...

[Woody1985]

I'm not saying sign every youngster on a 10-year deal, I just doubt that our recent managers would not want exciting prospects on long-term contracts. It makes sense to put youngsters such as Fletcher, Brown etc on long deals while being slightly more conservative about journeyman-type players, particularly when we put so much stock in our youth system.

Erm, is that not what we do with the exceptions of a few turkeys such as Hart?

[blackpoolhibs]

Daft kick off times are the reason i dont make every home game.

[HibbyAndy]

How the **** did Hearts get 8 million written off??!!! :confused:

And 6 hundred thousand fans have stayed away in the last 5 years,So its No just Hibs fans then Mikey?.

[Albion Hibs]

Not quite astonishing but a bit of an eye opener for those who hadn't thought about it before.

TV pays £1m and controls when the games are played.

Supporters pay c£4m have hee haw say and are continually inconvenienced by awkward TV match times meaning STs cant always be used – often losing one of the benefits of having a ST in the first place.

The less moveaboutability of match times was one of the things that was in the package that was the 10 team SPL. I cant recall hearing / reading anything about the other elements of that package.

I have decided to give it until Xmas and then potentially pack in my Sky Sports subscription. I cant be ersed with the way they dictate fixtures and we end up playing a good % (dont know what it is) of games on a Sunday so they can 1) show the old firm games, 2) keep the EPL followers entertained between games 3) watch an over rated league with games like Blackburn and Bolton. Money has nothing to do with it on this front, but the only games I am ersed about watching are hibs ones.

Your point re revenue from customers V income from the is valid, how the punter can give so much more and recieve less of a service is beyond me - this has to be the only industry in the world that would accept such a thing.

I would go as far as to say that on the face of it they need us more than we need them.

Dump them, they will either then invest more as a result of loosing something, or they will walk away, gates will no doubt go up and we will be in a no worse position as far as I can see.

[Houchy]

Is there any scope for ever getting rid of the outrageous 11-1 voting system the SPL has? Or would they have to vote on it...

This is why the SPL is doomed. It's ridiculous that we can't even fart without having both the old firm saying its ok. we could have a 10-2 vote and yet the motion isn't carried.

Is it feasable that once these teams do go bust and assuming one is Hahahearts, do you think that their fans would EVENTUALLY come round to supporting us.

Even if they don't 14 years or so down the line, all these youngsters growing up never knowing about Hearts would surely start supporing Hibs.

The 2 Dundee teams need to merge
Aberdeen have probably got a big enough fan base to survive on their own but need to get their heads out the sand and realise that they are no longer Big Dogs in neither Europe or even the SPL. Possible merge with ICT to increase fanbase if need be.
Raith and Dunfermline could possibly merge to make a bigger team.

All of the above is probably a bit too idealist but IMHO it is what needs to happen to make the SPL more competative. If there are 4 or 5 clubs all challenging for honours and taking points off each other (inc points off the old firm) it would make for a much more exciting league and possibly then looking at 10 team league (albeit that a few teams would be an amalgamation)

[HibbyAndy]

This is why the SPL is doomed. It's ridiculous that we can't even fart without having both the old firm saying its ok. we could have a 10-2 vote and yet the motion isn't carried.

Is it feasable that once these teams do go bust and assuming one is Hahahearts, do you think that their fans would EVENTUALLY come round to supporting us.

Even if they don't 14 years or so down the line, all these youngsters growing up never knowing about Hearts would surely start supporing Hibs.

The 2 Dundee teams need to merge
Aberdeen have probably got a big enough fan base to survive on their own but need to get their heads out the sand and realise that they are no longer Big Dogs in neither Europe or even the SPL. Possible merge with ICT to increase fanbase if need be.
Raith and Dunfermline could possibly merge to make a bigger team.

All of the above is probably a bit too idealist but IMHO it is what needs to happen to make the SPL more competative. If there are 4 or 5 clubs all challenging for honours and taking points off each other (inc points off the old firm) it would make for a much more exciting league and possibly then looking at 10 team league (albeit that a few teams would be an amalgamation)



Spot on Houchy.

The demise of Hearts would only be good for Hibs in the sense that youve just stated, Derby match or no Derby match.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Entrance fees, playing same teams, cost's of catering, too many clubs involved in the leagues, kick off times, we live in a Old Firm society, poor advertising from media. The whole layout of Scottish Football should be changed.

Firstly to pay £20+ to gain entrance to watch football is shocking, and supporters throughout the country are showing that the prices of games is far too much by not attending.....well done to the people. Don't even get me started on catering....£2 quid for a pie GTF tell me aplace where you pay £2 for a pie outside fitba?????

To have 40 teams playing in the 4 division of Scottish Football is shocking we are a nation that has under 5 million people compared to England that has over 55 million people living in it and rounghly 90 teams playing in the top 4 divisions.....you do the maths on where the cash goes and average people supporting local teams. This is another thing that gets ma goat all those folk that follow Rangers and Celtic living in Edinburgh.

We should have 2 divisions with 16 teams in each playing each other twice.

The SFA/SPL should get a better negotiator when dealing with tv deals.

[Mikey]

So its No just Hibs fans then Mikey?.

Sorry, you've lost me there!

[Sir David Gray]

It makes sense to say that clubs need more fans through the turnstiles, of course it does. However clubs and people commenting on the financial situation within Scottish football cannot get away from the fact that Scottish football is no longer good value for money for a vast number of families in Scotland.

For a family of four to purchase a season ticket at Easter Road, they wouldn't get much change out of £1000. Given the current climate, a lot of people just can't justify that level of expenditure when there are so many other things that are of a much higher priority in life than going to a game of football.

I understand that it's not as simple as just reducing the price of tickets because it has been tried once or twice before and it hasn't really worked.

We've had the predictable one or two on here who continue to lecture people and tell them that they must go to the games and buy season tickets etc etc, whenever these discussions come up, but it is not as straightforward as that. I don't know the exact figures, but why would anyone pay £22+ to watch a game between St Mirren and Inverness CT when they can watch a game between Barcelona and Manchester Utd and numerous other top level matches for about £20 odd a month on Sky Sports?

There is no easy solution to this problem. Without the financial income from supporters, clubs struggle to pay wages, buy decent players or survive financially but, equally, without a decent product on the park, people just aren't going to be interested in giving their support to the SPL.

The problem won't go away with people constantly getting on at others to go to the games.

[Albion Hibs]

It makes sense to say that clubs need more fans through the turnstiles, of course it does. However clubs and people commenting on the financial situation within Scottish football cannot get away from the fact that Scottish football is no longer good value for money for a vast number of families in Scotland.

For a family of four to purchase a season ticket at Easter Road, they wouldn't get much change out of £1000. Given the current climate, a lot of people just can't justify that level of expenditure when there are so many other things that are of a much higher priority in life than going to a game of football.

I understand that it's not as simple as just reducing the price of tickets because it has been tried once or twice before and it hasn't really worked.

We've had the predictable one or two on here who continue to lecture people and tell them that they must go to the games and buy season tickets etc etc, whenever these discussions come up, but it is not as straightforward as that. I don't know the exact figures, but why would anyone pay £22+ to watch a game between St Mirren and Inverness CT when they can watch a game between Barcelona and Manchester Utd and numerous other top level matches for about £20 odd a month on Sky Sports?

There is no easy solution to this problem. Without the financial income from supporters, clubs struggle to pay wages, buy decent players or survive financially but, equally, without a decent product on the park, people just aren't going to be interested in giving their support to the SPL.

The problem won't go away with people constantly getting on at others to go to the games.

I agree with a lot of what you say, basically if people cant afford to go to the football it is totally understandable that they dont. I do think most of the debate on here comes when people elect not to go.

With regards to the bit in bold my view would simply be I would pay £22 if I supported either St Mirren or Inverness. I would rather pay to watch a team I supported over two teams that I have no interest in, maybe at some stage in my life I will visit there stadiums but other than that they have no relevance to me. I do appreciate for that one payment of £22 you dont just get that match but a host of other games - all of which carry the same level of appeal to me.

I think the problem by in large is created by the amount of football now available to watch, it has realistically created some people that are more fans of football in general rather than supporters of Clubs. The easy solution is some can watch three games a day at the weekend from the comfort of their home, rather than making there way to a stadium.

When I was growing up you would get 1 maybe 2 games of live club football a year on TV. If you wanted to watch football week in week out you had to go to a local ground and therefore the were more of a supporter of 1 team. Therefore one of the issues is an oversupply, and therefore demand for what people may deem to be a weaker product, in their personal view, is the one they chose to get rid of.

The matter of Sky tv has been playing pretty heavy on my mind since the start of the season, I think they / the sellouts at the SFA are responsible for killing the standard by investing less in it / accepting a poorer price. Part of me would like the clubs in our leagues to bin the sky thing and see if it has an effect on getting crowds up and interest back in the game, my view is it certainly would. Whilst the sky dictated timetable/sunday games do not put me off going I do struggle to remember at times what it feels like to have a 3pm kick off on saturday!

Ultimatley I dont think the clubs will ever do that, ironically they are all left to over-invest as a result of falling ticket sales/crowds, to buy better players than we can afford in a bid to keep people coming through the doors, and from figures noted earlier today it would seem like that over investment is more than what Sky give out in the first place...ironic in my view.

[Houchy]

Scotland in general has too many teams so we should be changing the lower leagues into more structured leagues made up of home grown talent only with each SPL side being delegated a lower division side for which to farm out their talent. That way, you can take an interest (i'm not suggesting pledging your undying love here) in a side in the lower divisions as they are a subsidiary and beneficiary of your team. (getting youngsters experience)

Obviously your "other" side can't be promoted to the SPL and transfers would have to be regulated ie last year (if we were connected to Dundee, we couldn't just turn around and say "well you're just our feeder club so we'll take Leigh Griffiths"). It would all have to go through the proper channels with each team still running as their own club with no financial links to their "bigger brothers".

If your smaller team were in a position to be promoted, you would have to be delegated a new side.

[Antifa Hibs]

Scottish football has to have the most unsustainable business model the world has ever seen. Extremely high rip-off prices for a very very poor product. I'm not caring about the economics of the league. What I've stated is fact. How many times last season did you walk out last season thinking that hour and a half was well worth £20 - £28? Not many for me, I go out of sheer loyalty (others will say stupidity, they may have a point!).

TV has also royally f****d us over big time, indirectly and directly. Indirectly by showing games at all times, people have had their fitba fix, you then get dafties trying to compare Barca and Man U to Hamilton and Killie! They also pay billions out to all leagues except our own. Directly they screw us over with the kick-off times. For someone who gives us such little, I find it utterly bizarre they get such a say in things. Celtic fans gave their club about £30m in tickets last year with another £10m in merch. They got £1.25m from Sky/ESPN - yet Sky/ESPN were allowed to dictate the kick-off times for about 50% of their games. Rangers will be similar. Hibby's probably gave the club about what, £4-5m in ticket and merch money etc last season, got about £500k from the TV companies, yet they can dictate about 25-30% of our kick-off times. Get the TV camera's to **** would be a good start!

[Removed]

Scottish football has to have the most unsustainable business model the world has ever seen. Extremely high rip-off prices for a very very poor product. I'm not caring about the economics of the league. What I've stated is fact. How many times last season did you walk out last season thinking that hour and a half was well worth £20 - £28? Not many for me, I go out of sheer loyalty (others will say stupidity, they may have a point!).TV has also royally f****d us over big time, indirectly and directly. Indirectly by showing games at all times, people have had their fitba fix, you then get dafties trying to compare Barca and Man U to Hamilton and Killie! They also pay billions out to all leagues except our own. Directly they screw us over with the kick-off times. For someone who gives us such little, I find it utterly bizarre they get such a say in things. Celtic fans gave their club about £30m in tickets last year with another £10m in merch. They got £1.25m from Sky/ESPN - yet Sky/ESPN were allowed to dictate the kick-off times for about 50% of their games. Rangers will be similar. Hibby's probably gave the club about what, £4-5m in ticket and merch money etc last season, got about £500k from the TV companies, yet they can dictate about 25-30% of our kick-off times. Get the TV camera's to **** would be a good start!:agree: :top marks

[bingo70]

Scottish football has to have the most unsustainable business model the world has ever seen. Extremely high rip-off prices for a very very poor product. I'm not caring about the economics of the league. What I've stated is fact. How many times last season did you walk out last season thinking that hour and a half was well worth £20 - £28? Not many for me, I go out of sheer loyalty (others will say stupidity, they may have a point!).

TV has also royally f****d us over big time, indirectly and directly. Indirectly by showing games at all times, people have had their fitba fix, you then get dafties trying to compare Barca and Man U to Hamilton and Killie! They also pay billions out to all leagues except our own. Directly they screw us over with the kick-off times. For someone who gives us such little, I find it utterly bizarre they get such a say in things. Celtic fans gave their club about £30m in tickets last year with another £10m in merch. They got £1.25m from Sky/ESPN - yet Sky/ESPN were allowed to dictate the kick-off times for about 50% of their games. Rangers will be similar. Hibby's probably gave the club about what, £4-5m in ticket and merch money etc last season, got about £500k from the TV companies, yet they can dictate about 25-30% of our kick-off times. Get the TV camera's to **** would be a good start!

Disagree with a lot of things you say in general about costs of games but you make some good points there.

I think we need to charge what we charge if we want to continue to buy the players we've been buying as i don't think cheaper seats mean more customers, i only go out of loyalty, can't remember the last time i was there at the final whistle at easter road but i still go back every week out of loyalty, not because its entertaining but i dread to think how bad it would be if we spent even less on the team.

I'm not bothered about games being on TV, but would moving all kick offs to saturday at 3pm attract enough fans back to compensate from the lack of TV revenue? I'm not sure it would.

I know there's arguments against it but i think summer football might be the best way forward for the SPL, the constant need to compete against the English is going to be the death of our game.

[WindyMiller]

Am I right in reading that each club only gets around £1m per year for the Sky/broadcasting. In which case we would need to sell circa 2,500 addition season tickets to cover this revenue. If we told them to bolt games would be on saturdays at reasonable times.

I understand with it sponsers may argue they wont get as much exposure but I think it is safe to say that the benefit we get from Sky is minimal and I feel pretty confident to say that, if my above thinking is right we would get an easy additional 2,500 season ticket sales through saturday games at 3pm.

Unfortunately the spread is as fair as that....

48% is divided equally between all 12 clubs while 52% is distributed to teams dependant upon their final league position.

+ The higher up the table that a club finishes, the more money they will receive - see table below. For season 2007/08, more than £18m was paid out to SPL clubs.

League position - % of cash pot

1 - 4% + 13% = 17%
2 - 4% + 11% = 15%
3 - 4% + 5.5% = 9.5%
4 - 4% + 4.5% = 8.5%
5 - 4% + 4.0% = 8.0%
6 - 4% + 3.5% = 7.5%
7 - 4% + 3.0% = 7.0%
8 - 4% + 2.5% = 6.5%
9 - 4% + 2.0% = 6.0%
10 - 4% + 1.5% = 5.5%
11 - 4% + 1.0% = 5.0%
12 - 4% + 0.5% = 4.5%


therefore the team finishing 9th would get £650,000?

[CentreLine]

Do you have any evidence for that? I'd have thought it's just as likely the economy and admission charges are to blame. Has there really been a massive upsurge in violence at games? Are there figures to back that up?

Do you consider the violence that happens at games is acceptable? And are you suggesting that thuggery at Scottish football games does not having an consequence for attendances?

My evidence of increasing violence? Personal observation, media reporting and websites like this one where it is discussed, often as if it is an acceptable way to behave. I have been attending Easter Road and many other grounds regularly for over 45 years and I can certainy see an unhealthy tendency towards increasing football related violence that was such a cancer in the game in the 1980's. I cannot understand that, for some people, to support one team means you must hate another and its supporters. Persoanally I find it very sad.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Scottish football has to have the most unsustainable business model the world has ever seen. Extremely high rip-off prices for a very very poor product. I'm not caring about the economics of the league. What I've stated is fact. How many times last season did you walk out last season thinking that hour and a half was well worth £20 - £28? Not many for me, I go out of sheer loyalty (others will say stupidity, they may have a point!).

TV has also royally f****d us over big time, indirectly and directly. Indirectly by showing games at all times, people have had their fitba fix, you then get dafties trying to compare Barca and Man U to Hamilton and Killie! They also pay billions out to all leagues except our own. Directly they screw us over with the kick-off times. For someone who gives us such little, I find it utterly bizarre they get such a say in things. Celtic fans gave their club about £30m in tickets last year with another £10m in merch. They got £1.25m from Sky/ESPN - yet Sky/ESPN were allowed to dictate the kick-off times for about 50% of their games. Rangers will be similar. Hibby's probably gave the club about what, £4-5m in ticket and merch money etc last season, got about £500k from the TV companies, yet they can dictate about 25-30% of our kick-off times. Get the TV camera's to **** would be a good start!

Your first paragraph could apply to supporters any club who went through the rubbish season we did last year and I'm sure it would have been more worth the money if we had been winning a lot more and playing better, so hopefully thats a short term thing.

Your next part regarding TV is totally spot on. TV isnt helping Scottish football, its killing it !!!

[joebakerforever]

There's an easy way to make sure that Hibs don't suffer financially.

Go to games.

There's a way Hibs can make it easier for fans to go:-

Play most home league games at 3pm on a Saturday instead of constantly rescheduling them.

As it was stated that gate income is greater than tv revenue, perhaps the club should place more emphasis on Saturday afternoon football and some might return.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

Do you consider the violence that happens at games is acceptable? And are you suggesting that thuggery at Scottish football games does not having an consequence for attendances?

My evidence of increasing violence? Personal observation, media reporting and websites like this one where it is discussed, often as if it is an acceptable way to behave. I have been attending Easter Road and many other grounds regularly for over 45 years and I can certainy see an unhealthy tendency towards increasing football related violence that was such a cancer in the game in the 1980's. I cannot understand that, for some people, to support one team means you must hate another and its supporters. Persoanally I find it very sad.

I've NEVER seen violence discussed on this website as being an acceptable way to behave. :confused:

[IWasThere2016]

Unfortunately the spread is as fair as that....

48% is divided equally between all 12 clubs while 52% is distributed to teams dependant upon their final league position.

+ The higher up the table that a club finishes, the more money they will receive - see table below. For season 2007/08, more than £18m was paid out to SPL clubs.

League position - % of cash pot

1 - 4% + 13% = 17%
2 - 4% + 11% = 15%
3 - 4% + 5.5% = 9.5%
4 - 4% + 4.5% = 8.5%
5 - 4% + 4.0% = 8.0%
6 - 4% + 3.5% = 7.5%
7 - 4% + 3.0% = 7.0%
8 - 4% + 2.5% = 6.5%
9 - 4% + 2.0% = 6.0%
10 - 4% + 1.5% = 5.5%
11 - 4% + 1.0% = 5.0%
12 - 4% + 0.5% = 4.5%


therefore the team finishing 9th would get £650,000?

No coincidence that there is a 2% gap between 1 and 2, and a further 5.5% for 3rd!

In many many other sports 1st gets twice what 2nd gets .. Alas not in the OF's SPL! They are skvm!

[Dr Jimmy]

If the spl dumped TV what effect would that have on shirt and ground advertising?
Also, would players want to come to the SPL if its not shown on TV?
There may be a bigger impact on clubs than just the direct cash?
Don't know the answers only asking the questions?

[Dashing Bob S]

Scottish football has to have the most unsustainable business model the world has ever seen. Extremely high rip-off prices for a very very poor product. I'm not caring about the economics of the league. What I've stated is fact. How many times last season did you walk out last season thinking that hour and a half was well worth £20 - £28? Not many for me, I go out of sheer loyalty (others will say stupidity, they may have a point!).

TV has also royally f****d us over big time, indirectly and directly. Indirectly by showing games at all times, people have had their fitba fix, you then get dafties trying to compare Barca and Man U to Hamilton and Killie! They also pay billions out to all leagues except our own. Directly they screw us over with the kick-off times. For someone who gives us such little, I find it utterly bizarre they get such a say in things. Celtic fans gave their club about £30m in tickets last year with another £10m in merch. They got £1.25m from Sky/ESPN - yet Sky/ESPN were allowed to dictate the kick-off times for about 50% of their games. Rangers will be similar. Hibby's probably gave the club about what, £4-5m in ticket and merch money etc last season, got about £500k from the TV companies, yet they can dictate about 25-30% of our kick-off times. Get the TV camera's to **** would be a good start!

Agree about the unsustainable model, but I think that's becoming the case for all smaller European countries who I feel will have to regionalise into larger leagues if they are to compete with the more populous nations Spain, England, Germany and the emerging Russia, for TV money.

Don't think we can get rid of TV now, we to find a way to getting our fair share, and sadly that will never happen within Scottish football (sectarian, badly run and too small a market for anybody else to care.)

[greenginger]

Getting Scottish Football a fair deal from the BRITISH Broadcasting Corp. would be a start.

About 10% of the licensing fees are paid in Scotland but I doubt if Scottish Football get more than one hundredth of the money spent on the English game.

Nearly every International, under 23, youth , womens games, not to mention hours of premiership and championship highlights on a weekly basis.

Scotland get half hour on a Monday night and some Scottish Cup coverage that the BBC pay the Scottish game sweeties for.

Over to you Alex Salmond, show us at least one Jambo is worth the oxygen 1

[lucky]

Some posts on this thread are extremely patronising to other clubs. Merger of football teams does not work. Its wrong generally only drives fans away. The most successful merger in Scotland was ICT and they struggled to get 2500 fans to attend against Hibs. IMHO it down to 3 things. 1. Product on the park. 2. Kick off times 3. Price. Doncaster claimed on TV that SPL clubs get around £1m per season from TV companies. Hibs have 19 home games as such we would need around 40000 extra fans through the turnstyles over the season. We might be able to scrape that figure if the team was decent and the price was under £20. But reality we are stuck with TV and daft KO times. The SPL has bigger problems than most small Europea leagues--we share an island with two of the most sucessfull leagues in Europe, (EPL and Championship) as such we struggle to attract players. Our league will grow when the the English leagues go burst.

[down-the-slope]

If the spl dumped TV what effect would that have on shirt and ground advertising?
Also, would players want to come to the SPL if its not shown on TV?
There may be a bigger impact on clubs than just the direct cash?
Don't know the answers only asking the questions?


saved me posting...quite a big additional impact. Sponsors Like our new one would have not been interested as TV exposure is what they are after...

[Judas Iscariot]

There's an easy way to make sure that Hibs don't suffer financially.

Go to games.

There's an easy way for Hibs to get fans to come along..

Win games

[bpw]

From my personal view:

Prices are obviously too high but not the issue per se.

I would have paid £28 for the Celtic game had it been a Saturday 3pm or even a 2pm Sunday kick off, but would not pay that price when know there will be a half empty stadium but would have paid £15 maximum for an early kick off. Related problem is that many fans accept these prices becuase they have been brainwashed by clubs into thinking they are needed because of greater security costs when the income from these games in fact greatly outweighs the extra costs incurred, even befiore taking TV into consderation.

And knowing there will be lack of atmosphere at the bigger games then reduces value in having season ticket- main reason why I no longer have one . And related issue that a season ticket is no longer needed to ensure tickets for the bigger away games given they are often 1230 kick offs now too (summed up by fact being a non-season ticket last year I had no problem get tickets for ther first New Years Day Derby for many years) which clubs like Hibs do not seem to have considered at all.

And agree with poster who said Salmond should be doing a lot more on the TV arrangements which are nothing short of racial dsicrimination agianst Scottish taxpayers. Should be something in it for him as his proposed actions against abuse related to football would get more support if he was seen to be tackling the bigger issues.

And Petrie was on boards that agreed kick off times and has publicly defended them when challenged - so he is on the same level as the Old Firm who cannot take all the blame.

[blackpoolhibs]

From my personal view:

Prices are obviously too high but not the issue per se.

I would have paid £28 for the Celtic game had it been a Saturday 3pm or even a 2pm Sunday kick off, but would not pay that price when know there will be a half empty stadium but would have paid £15 maximum for an early kick off. Related problem is that many fans accept these prices becuase they have been brainwashed by clubs into thinking they are needed because of greater security costs when the income from these games in fact greatly outweighs the extra costs incurred, even befiore taking TV into consderation.

And knowing there will be lack of atmosphere at the bigger games then reduces value in having season ticket- main reason why I no longer have one . And related issue that a season ticket is no longer needed to ensure tickets for the bigger away games given they are often 1230 kick offs now too (summed up by fact being a non-season ticket last year I had no problem get tickets for ther first New Years Day Derby for many years) which clubs like Hibs do not seem to have considered at all.

And agree with poster who said Salmond should be doing a lot more on the TV arrangements which are nothing short of racial dsicrimination agianst Scottish taxpayers. Should be something in it for him as his proposed actions against abuse related to football would get more support if he was seen to be tackling the bigger issues.

And Petrie was on boards that agreed kick off times and has publicly defended them when challenged - so he is on the same level as the Old Firm who cannot take all the blame.

Thats the reason i'm not getting a season ticket next season, even if we win the league.

[bpw]

Thats the reason i'm not getting a season ticket next season, even if we win the league.

Agree, which is where those who say if Hibs we were winnng games crowds would rise miss the point completely.

Even if Hibs were doing well it would make no difference to my attendance or buying a season ticket - and would make no impact on the problems facing Scottish football generally as more or less impossible to have all clubs doing well at same time.

[bingo70]

Agree, which is where those who say if Hibs we were winnng games crowds would rise miss the point completely.

Even if Hibs were doing well it would make no difference to my attendance or buying a season ticket - and would make no impact on the problems facing Scottish football generally as more or less impossible to have all clubs doing well at same time.

It might not make much difference to you but when hibs were playing well and winning under Mowbrey crowds were much bigger than they are now, we were queing for tickets for tynecastle from about 6 in the morning and kick off times were still stupid then and it was still totally overpriced then as well.

IMO the only way to improve crowds to where we want them to be is for the team to get it right on the park, i agree that when we're pish people would be more likely to go on a saturday at 3pm but it'd be a fairly marginal difference IMO.

Take your point about all teams not being able to do well at once though, thats going to be the same in any league though so not much that we can do about that.

[blackpoolhibs]

Agree, which is where those who say if Hibs we were winnng games crowds would rise miss the point completely.

Even if Hibs were doing well it would make no difference to my attendance or buying a season ticket - and would make no impact on the problems facing Scottish football generally as more or less impossible to have all clubs doing well at same time.

I was only jesting about us winning the league, if we were to do so, you can bet your last penny i'd still have a season ticket. :greengrin

Although we all know thats not going to happen, and with so many games being moved to silly O'Clock its just not worth it to me anymore. I'd imagine most folk who have a season ticket miss the odd game, but like to sit in the same seat, speak to the same people and think they are contributing.

I used to think this way, but not now. Its just become ridiculous the amount of games that are not on a Saturday anymore. We are nowhere near selling out easter road, and with that in mind i personally will be keeping my money in my pocket, and paying at the gate until such times as we play on Saturdays at 3pm again.

[sidjames]

The answer is the OF should de merge into 6 teams, Glasgow this that and the next thing. 16 team league more evenly balanced. What could be more simple and effective. kinda like solving more than one problem :)

[Part/Time Supporter]

I was only jesting about us winning the league, if we were to do so, you can bet your last penny i'd still have a season ticket. :greengrin

Although we all know thats not going to happen, and with so many games being moved to silly O'Clock its just not worth it to me anymore. I'd imagine most folk who have a season ticket miss the odd game, but like to sit in the same seat, speak to the same people and think they are contributing.

I used to think this way, but not now. Its just become ridiculous the amount of games that are not on a Saturday anymore. We are nowhere near selling out easter road, and with that in mind i personally will be keeping my money in my pocket, and paying at the gate until such times as we play on Saturdays at 3pm again.

Would you buy a part season ticket for the 8-10 games that are played at Saturday 3pm?

[blackpoolhibs]

Would you buy a part season ticket for the 8-10 games that are played at Saturday 3pm?

:agree: yip i would.

[Woody1985]

Although TV deals and bad decision making in choosing them (Setanta) have contributed to the downfall of Scottish football if we shunned the TV deals now to get more fans back all it would ultimately do would result in Rangers and Celtic setting up their own TV deals and taking ALL of the TV income.

[Saorsa]

Although TV deals and bad decision making in choosing them (Setanta) have contributed to the downfall of Scottish football if we shunned the TV deals now to get more fans back all it would ultimately do would result in Rangers and Celtic setting up their own TV deals and taking ALL of the TV income.Surely they'd only be able tae televise their home games though. Personally I'd rather have 3pm Saturday KO's with nae live TV and just a highlights programme.

[blackpoolhibs]

Although TV deals and bad decision making in choosing them (Setanta) have contributed to the downfall of Scottish football if we shunned the TV deals now to get more fans back all it would ultimately do would result in Rangers and Celtic setting up their own TV deals and taking ALL of the TV income.

How can they do that without the other 10 clubs? If the 10 remaining clubs really had the good of Scottish football at heart instead of their own. they'd quite easily be able to give the 2 years i think notice to withdraw from the SPL and set up a new league without them.

We all know they dont have the balls to do this, but if they did, the old firm couldn't just set up their own tv station, as there's no bugger to play against without the rest, and would have to follow the rest of us but on our more fairer rules.

I don't quite know how or why these clubs have let themselves be backed into this 11-1 voting system, but if they only sat down and thought about it, they'd see that the majority hold the power, not the minority. Although as i said at the beginning, they don't have the balls to sort this out, why i don't know?

[3pm]

Would you buy a part season ticket for the 8-10 games that are played at Saturday 3pm?

I posted this on 25 April...

A breakdown!

- 9 Matches started at 3pm on a Saturday (2 to play)
- 1 match started at 12 noon on a Saturday (Celtic 0-3)
- 6 matches on a Sunday (various times)
- 3 matches on a Wednesday night.

[bpw]

Would you buy a part season ticket for the 8-10 games that are played at Saturday 3pm?

I for one most definitely would.

[bpw]

It might not make much difference to you but when hibs were playing well and winning under Mowbrey crowds were much bigger than they are now, we were queing for tickets for tynecastle from about 6 in the morning and kick off times were still stupid then and it was still totally overpriced then as well.

IMO the only way to improve crowds to where we want them to be is for the team to get it right on the park, i agree that when we're pish people would be more likely to go on a saturday at 3pm but it'd be a fairly marginal difference IMO.

Take your point about all teams not being able to do well at once though, thats going to be the same in any league though so not much that we can do about that.

I don't think you are right here, for most of Mowbray's time SPL was on the original Setanta deal meant mainly Sunday 2pm kick offs which was fine - only exception were Scottish Cup games where Sky imposed absurd early kick offs, culminating in the embarassing empty spaces in Hearts semi final at Hampden. It was only later around 2008/9 that too many early kick off times became a problem.

And the games where there were queues forTynecastle tickets were all at sensible kick off times.

[whiskyhibby]

Although TV deals and bad decision making in choosing them (Setanta) have contributed to the downfall of Scottish football if we shunned the TV deals now to get more fans back all it would ultimately do would result in Rangers and Celtic setting up their own TV deals and taking ALL of the TV income.

Sorry don't see this as possible, if the. Team they are playing refuses their permission to broadcast images of their players then there is no product for Infirm TV to Market alternatively WE could ask for 75% of income for each match


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.493253,-0.238699

[blackpoolhibs]

Jeff Stelling said earlier that Hartlepool normally play to around 2500 supporters, but they made it that the more people who bought a season ticket, the cheaper they got, well i think thats what he said.

He also said they sold 6000 and its a sell out. I dont know how this was structured, but it might be worth having a look at how they did this, and if its more profitable?:dunno:

[Albion Hibs]

Jeff Stelling said earlier that Hartlepool normally play to around 2500 supporters, but they made it that the more people who bought a season ticket, the cheaper they got, well i think thats what he said.

He also said they sold 6000 and its a sell out. I dont know how this was structured, but it might be worth having a look at how they did this, and if its more profitable?:dunno:

Ironically just posted the attached on another thread. Subject to away fans think they will be sold out pretty much all season. Dont think we could afford to drop to £100 but more like something along the lines of £250/300.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/7330/38/