Riots in tottingham tonight

[Mark79]

Have hearts fans started to travel down already or are the spurs supporters gutted that they have to play hearts?

[joe breezy]

Ha ha, I was wondering when I heard the news breaking out...turns out it's aimed at the police who shot someone Thursday night...

[DAVE1875]

Is it wrong that I'm listening to this whilst reading the story on Sky News? :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XncuY4wLaA8

[Gatecrasher]

I'm not happy about something, let's go and destroy the area we live in! :rolleyes:

[Betty Boop]

Feel like I have been transported back to the 80s. The same concerns being expressed in communities such as Tottenham,Hackney, Haringey etc, young people feeling disenfranchised, subject to stop and search laws, unable to find employment. The authorities seemed to have learned nothing from the Broadwater Farm riots and the Cynthia Jarrett death, going by what community workers have been saying today.

[Removed]

An Irish guy I know went looting in Tottenham last night. He gave up when he didn't have a pound coin for a trolley :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Feel like I have been transported back to the 80s. The same concerns being expressed in communities such as Tottenham,Hackney, Haringey etc, young people feeling disenfranchised, subject to stop and search laws, unable to find employment. The authorities seemed to have learned nothing from the Broadwater Farm riots and the Cynthia Jarrett death, going by what community workers have been saying today.The only thing missing is the sadly passed Berni Grant, replaced as local MP by the snivelling sycophant that is David Lammy.

[Betty Boop]

The only thing missing is the sadly passed Berni Grant, replaced as local MP by the snivelling sycophant that is David Lammy.

Listening to him you would think there are no problems whatsoever in Tottenham.

[Betty Boop]

Trouble in Hackney now.

[Woody1985]

Feel like I have been transported back to the 80s. The same concerns being expressed in communities such as Tottenham,Hackney, Haringey etc, young people feeling disenfranchised, subject to stop and search laws, unable to find employment. The authorities seemed to have learned nothing from the Broadwater Farm riots and the Cynthia Jarrett death, going by what community workers have been saying today.Was it not an excuse to riot because an armed man was shot?Presumably some of the associates are dangerous people aswell.

[hibsbollah]

Trouble in Hackney now. Id be picking up the nearest brick as well if Nick Clegg came to my area on a 'factfinding visit'.

[Westie1875]

Trouble in Hackney now.

Some thug just lobbed a gas canister into a random car and its gone up in flames. :bitchy:

What on earth is the point to all of this? Must be terrifying for the innocent people living and working in these areas.

The police need to change their tactics if they are going to end this anytime soon before innocent people end up getting killed in these random fires.

[Betty Boop]

Id be picking up the nearest brick as well if Nick Clegg came to my area on a 'factfinding visit'.

:greengrin They are all coming back from their holidaybobs now, Teresa May, Boris et al. Trouble now in Lewiswham and Peckham, looks like this is spreading.

[Gatecrasher]

i wish they would stop using the term protesters, it might have started out like that, but these people are nothing but dirty chavs who want to have some aggro.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

How long is it going to take the fire brigade to get to the burning building in Peckham?

[Lofarl]

How long is it going to take the fire brigade to get to the burning building in Peckham?

More to the point, how long before Celtic fans claim some sort on unity with the poor oppressed rioters.

[Silversand]

Greggs going up in flames now! :flamed:

No more signing rumours this window! :wink:

[Westie1875]

How long is it going to take the fire brigade to get to the burning building in Peckham?

Much longer and the whole block will be up in smoke.

[silverhibee]

Police losing control of situation now, they need to change tactics soon or parts of London will burn tonight.


Now Birmingham having trouble. And Leeds.

[Betty Boop]

Welcome to London Olympic hosts 2012. :rolleyes:

[IWasThere2016]

I watched a car getting torched - S301KSR - I got it valued on webuyanycar.com .. If I was the owner I try and punt it. It was worth £50 (yes - fifty) before it was set alight!

[Calvin]

Someone is on holiday in Tuscany ignoring the riots. PM if you're interested who.

[Westie1875]

Someone is on holiday in Tuscany ignoring the riots. PM if you're interested who.

Reported a wee while ago by the BBC that he is NOT coming home to deal with it, pathetic really, shouldn't be running the country if he isn't willing to come and deal with this.

[frazeHFC]

Anyone see that officer struck with missile and injured? Live on Sky News.

[hibsbollah]

Greggs going up in flames now! :flamed:No more signing rumours this window! :wink: Oh dear. Didn't a certain other London fire also start in a bakers' shop?

[Westie1875]

:bitchy:Now showing 2 big fires in Croydon

Make that 3 :bitchy:

[Barney McGrew]

How long before they get the Army out on the streets?

That'll get the little ****s back into their houses again :agree:

[hibsbollah]

The main 'world' news story on the US networks now.

[SteveHFC]

The police should just go out there and arrest these c****.

[lucky]

I like to blame the Tories on everything but these are just thugs this is not about social problems created by unemployment. Makes Saturdays trouble look toy town now

[hibsbollah]

Cameron flying home now.

[Betty Boop]

Breaking news, Call me Dave is returning from holiday overnight.

[hibsbollah]

Breaking news, Call me Dave is returning from holiday overnight. Next Private Eye headline?...Boris drops olympic torch.

[Westie1875]

Breaking news, Call me Dave is returning from holiday overnight.

About time, when is he sending the army in?

[steakbake]

More importantly, where is the mayor?

[IWasThere2016]

Time for water cannons, rubber bullets, dogs, gas etc etc ..

[degenerated]

While the Greeks riot in protest at austerity measures and while the syrians and Egyptians riot for democracy these halfwits riot so they can steal tracksuit trousers and tv's. Mental.

[Betty Boop]

Next Private Eye headline?...Boris drops olympic torch.

:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

Kit Malthouse advising communities to take things into their qwn hands. Irresponsible advice from the Deputy Mayor surely ?

[degenerated]

Not a bad article in the guardian

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots?cat=commentisfree&type=article

[hibbytam]

While the Greeks riot in protest at austerity measures and while the syrians and Egyptians riot for democracy these halfwits riot so they can steal tracksuit trousers and tv's. Mental.

Like there was no looting involved in the other riots........

[hibsbollah]

Not a bad article in the guardianhttp://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots?cat=commentisfree&type=article I read that earlier. Will not be popular with the 'string em up' brigade who will be all over the media for the next week or so.

[Sylar]

Kit Malthouse advising communities to take things into their qwn hands. Irresponsible advice from the Deputy Mayor surely ?

He also seems to be unwilling to suggest any solution other than the status quo, suggesting that it's the "spectators" who are causing the problem, and that they need to give the police space.

Where I don't disagree with him, It looks well beyond the control of the police to me!

[IWasThere2016]

Kit Malthouse advising communities to take things into their qwn hands. Irresponsible advice from the Deputy Mayor surely ?

You're paraphrasing .. And badly!

His point was about getting those spectating off the streets, parents knowing where their kids were - thus leaving those seeking trouble to be tackled by the Polis.

[SteveHFC]

If it keeps going like this , I assume the England vs Holland game will get called off ?

[khib70]

While the Greeks riot in protest at austerity measures and while the syrians and Egyptians riot for democracy these halfwits riot so they can steal tracksuit trousers and tv's. Mental.
:agree:Exactly

I'm astonished that otherwise rational posters think this is some kind of legitimate popular uprising, though the Guardian talking bollox is much less surprising.

"Disenfranchised youth" finding their voice by torching their own communities and stealing luxury consumer goods. Aye right. The Tottenham area has had millions thrown at it since the local disenfranchised hacked a policeman to death in the 1980's.


This is pure criminality, now spreading as the mindless element in various urban populations try to outdo each other. To compare it with people risking their lives to free themselves of despotic rulers is naive and insulting.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's all Cleggy's doing.

From April 2010:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=player_embedded

[FromTheCapital]

The PM holding an emergency cobra meeting tomorrow morning.

[Sir David Gray]

To be perfectly honest, I couldn't care less what reasons these warped people have given for their actions, what I've seen over the past few days on the news is absolutely disgraceful and totally unjustifiable. People's lives are being put in grave danger with all these fires and damage that's getting done and folks' livelihoods are also being totally destroyed as people's businesses are being ransacked of all their goods.

It's quickly getting to the stage where the Armed Forces should be getting drafted in to deal with these people because I don't see how the Police resources are going to be able to deal with it.

They're just anarchists, pure and simple, and they're people who have absolutely no regard for anyone else. They just cause trouble and havoc for the sake of it and hijack other people's legitimate and peaceful protests. We've had it in the past with the G20, we've had it in the past with the protests against the cuts, we've had it in the past with the student tuition fees and now we're getting it in the aftermath of the death of that man in Tottenham.

It really is time to get tough with these people. They don't listen to rational debate or reasoning, so I think it's got to the stage where it's time to speak their language.

[CropleyWasGod]

To be perfectly honest, I couldn't care less what reasons these warped people have given for their actions, what I've seen over the past few days on the news is absolutely disgraceful and totally unjustifiable. People's lives are being put in grave danger with all these fires and damage that's getting done and folks' livelihoods are also being totally destroyed as people's businesses are being ransacked of all their goods.

It's quickly getting to the stage where the Armed Forces should be getting drafted in to deal with these people because I don't see how the Police resources are going to be able to deal with it.

They're just anarchists, pure and simple, and they're people who have absolutely no regard for anyone else. They just cause trouble and havoc for the sake of it and hijack other people's legitimate and peaceful protests. We've had it in the past with the G20, we've had it in the past with the protests against the cuts, we've had it in the past with the student tuition fees and now we're getting it in the aftermath of the death of that man in Tottenham.

It really is time to get tough with these people. They don't listen to rational debate or reasoning, so I think it's got to the stage where it's time to speak their language.

So that's the Tory Party sorted.

How would you deal with the demonstrators?

[Jonnyboy]

Breaking news, Call me Dave is returning from holiday overnight.

:greengrin

Shocking stuff really and seems folk are using the riots as a cover for looting.

God knows how they're going to stop this all happening

[Dashing Bob S]

Can't understand why people are so surprised at this. I'm only shocked it hasn't happened sooner. You've had three generations now in places like Tottenham with no gainful employment who have been sitting around doing zilch for years. That is not a good idea. Only drugs, being wasted, and having somewhere to go like community centre's has been keeping people off the street. The police have taken a lot of drugs off the street and the government have shut down all the community centre's, so there's nowhere to go but the streets.

Of course people will loot. All they are doing is indulging in their own January sales, and buy into our general consumerism and commodity fetishism. It's lunacy to expect people to respect private property when they have none and have no legitimate prospect of getting any.

We've created a society where there simply isn't any room or space for young, poor people now. We either provide employment and opportunities and education, or sterilize them. Over to you leftys and righty's.

[lyonhibs]

:agree:ExactlyI'm astonished that otherwise rational posters think this is some kind of legitimate popular uprising, though the Guardian talking bollox is much less surprising."Disenfranchised youth" finding their voice by torching their own communities and stealing luxury consumer goods. Aye right. The Tottenham area has had millions thrown at it since the local disenfranchised hacked a policeman to death in the 1980's. This is pure criminality, now spreading as the mindless element in various urban populations try to outdo each other. To compare it with people risking their lives to free themselves of despotic rulers is naive and insulting. Bang on. Iv jst listened to Red Ken witter on about the cuts, the 'frustrated youth'. What absolute *****. As if most of these criminals have a developed political opinion. They have shamefully hijacked the grief of a family - who hav roundly condomed these actions. I find myself agreeing with Edwina Currie - oh god!!

[silverhibee]

If it keeps going like this , I assume the England vs Holland game will get called off ?


Premiership games in London this week being cancelled.

[IWasThere2016]

http://yfrog.com/h01fujrgj

[lapsedhibee]

As if most of these criminals have a developed political opinion. They have shamefully hijacked the grief of a family - who hav roundly condomed these actions.

I don't think the police tactic of 'kettling' the student protests worked that well, and I'm almost certain that trying to enclose the rioting in a thin latex balloonlike structure will be no more effective.

[matty_f]

While the Greeks riot in protest at austerity measures and while the syrians and Egyptians riot for democracy these halfwits riot so they can steal tracksuit trousers and tv's. Mental.

Really like that quote. :agree:

[SteveHFC]

West Ham's Carling Cup game against Aldershot on Tuesday has been postponed on police advice following the continuing riots in London.

[Scouse Hibee]

Why?


Think about it! :rolleyes:

[silverhibee]

Sky News now reporting that a man has been shot in Croydon.

[Sir David Gray]

Can't understand why people are so surprised at this. I'm only shocked it hasn't happened sooner. You've had three generations now in places like Tottenham with no gainful employment who have been sitting around doing zilch for years. That is not a good idea. Only drugs, being wasted, and having somewhere to go like community centre's has been keeping people off the street. The police have taken a lot of drugs off the street and the government have shut down all the community centre's, so there's nowhere to go but the streets.

Of course people will loot. All they are doing is indulging in their own January sales, and buy into our general consumerism and commodity fetishism. It's lunacy to expect people to respect private property when they have none and have no legitimate prospect of getting any.

We've created a society where there simply isn't any room or space for young, poor people now. We either provide employment and opportunities and education, or sterilize them. Over to you leftys and righty's.

There's plenty of people who are out of work and struggling to get by. They don't all go about committing arson, fighting with police, stealing from shops and causing destruction to their community.

I have every sympathy with people who are unemployed, it's a very frustrating and despairing time but you absolutely cannot behave like this. There can be no excuse or reason that justifies this.

It's unacceptable.

[Sir David Gray]

West Ham's Carling Cup game against Aldershot on Tuesday has been postponed on police advice following the continuing riots in London.

I know it's more than two weeks away yet and a lot can happen in that time but if this continues, there has to be doubt as to whether or not the Tottenham-Hearts game will go ahead at White Hart Lane.

[SteveHFC]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-23330390/ (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/08/08/london-riots-terrified-woman-jumps-from-burning-building-115875-23330390/)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f 7&msa=0&ie=UTF8&ll=51.536086,-0.056305&spn=0.39294,0.630341&z=10&source=embed

Two cars on fire Lawrence road Liverpool http://twitpic.com/635hl4 (http://twitpic.com/635hl4)

[SteveHFC]

I know it's more than two weeks away yet and a lot can happen in that time but if this continues, there has to be doubt as to whether or not the Tottenham-Hearts game will go ahead at White Hart Lane.

Charlton vs Reading is also Off.

[magpie1892]

Not a bad article in the guardian

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots?cat=commentisfree&type=article

Pathetic article.

'give us stuff or we'll smash the place up'. Brilliant.

[Sir David Gray]

Charlton vs Reading is also Off.

The police have ordered all London football clubs to postpone all home fixtures for the foreseeable future.

That will probably affect the following;

Crystal Palace vs Crawley (Tuesday 9th August-Carling Cup)
Charlton vs Reading (Tuesday 9th August-Carling Cup)
West Ham vs Aldershot (Tuesday 9th August-Carling Cup)
England vs Netherlands (Wednesday 10th August-International)

Depending on how the situation develops, these fixtures may be affected too;

Fulham vs Aston Villa (Saturday August 13th-English Premiership)
QPR vs Bolton (Saturday August 13th-English Premiership)
Tottenham vs Everton (Saturday August 13th-English Premiership)
Crystal Palace vs Burnley (Saturday August 13th-English Championship)
Millwall vs Nottingham Forest (Saturday August 13th-English Championship)
Leyton Orient vs Tranmere (Saturday August 13th-English League One)
Barnet vs Port Vale (Saturday August 13th-English League Two)
Dagenham and Redbridge vs Wimbledon (Saturday August 13th-English League Two)

[cabbageandribs1875]

peckham burning :tsk tsk: this would never EVER have happened in del trotters days :bitchy: indeed, i remember one episode where he parted the polis and the rioters to get himself and raquel home safely :agree:

[SteveHFC]

https://www.facebook.com/video/ video...50851&comments (https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150333636850851&comments)

[joe breezy]

These kids are killing each other every other day, it often doesn't make the national news - it's a cultural thing but it's been getting worse & worse over the years. Now they've directed their anger outwardly hopefully something will be done about it

[bighairyfaeleith]

The biggest problem for the police and the government is that this disruption has no centre, nobody is controlling it. It is literally just like minded people going crazy on the streets of cities around the UK.

I watched the scenes in the bullring in birmingham yesterday on the tv and thought how many mums with kids would have innocently got caught up in all that yesterday, scary ****.

Absolutely no excuses for this, you just can't do this sort of ****. However once it has all calmed down the government needs to take a serious look at what's it's doing in regards to stopping this happening again, i.e. jobs, living standards, education and most important policing standards in traditionally poor areas.

[hibsbollah]

Pathetic article.'give us stuff or we'll smash the place up'. Brilliant. No, its trying to establish a C-O-N-T-E-X-T to whats happening. The only thing thats pathetic is the usual response of folk like you to any attempt to explain the circumstances behind something like this is to say 'oh, thats no excuse for violence, its just criminality'.

[Dashing Bob S]

No, its trying to establish a C-O-N-T-E-X-T to whats happening. The only thing thats pathetic is the usual response of folk like you to any attempt to explain the circumstances behind something like this is to say 'oh, thats no excuse for violence, its just criminality'.

It's just the cowards and controllers stock way of dealing with the situation by not dealing with it. Nobody want to see people being being terrorized and driven out their homes and cities burning, but simply parroting repeatedly that there is no excuse isn't going to do Jack to resolve the issue.

There comes a time when you have to move on from the bleating chorus of condemnation and start to actually look at what is happening.

[Dashing Bob S]

There's plenty of people who are out of work and struggling to get by. They don't all go about committing arson, fighting with police, stealing from shops and causing destruction to their community.

I have every sympathy with people who are unemployed, it's a very frustrating and despairing time but you absolutely cannot behave like this. There can be no excuse or reason that justifies this.

It's unacceptable.

1. Yes there are. Now a significant and growing proportion are committing arson, fighting police, stealing from shops and causing destruction. What are we going to do about it?

2. Not about justifying it. I don't think anybody is (or can.)

3. Yes. Repeat, so what are we doing about it?

[Barney McGrew]

Sky News now reporting that a man has been shot in Croydon.

What's the chances that he'll have been an innocent bystander, who's a pillar of the community and just happened to be passing by before being set on by the Police for no reason? :rolleyes:

[Betty Boop]

Can't understand why people are so surprised at this. I'm only shocked it hasn't happened sooner. You've had three generations now in places like Tottenham with no gainful employment who have been sitting around doing zilch for years. That is not a good idea. Only drugs, being wasted, and having somewhere to go like community centre's has been keeping people off the street. The police have taken a lot of drugs off the street and the government have shut down all the community centre's, so there's nowhere to go but the streets.

Of course people will loot. All they are doing is indulging in their own January sales, and buy into our general consumerism and commodity fetishism. It's lunacy to expect people to respect private property when they have none and have no legitimate prospect of getting any.

We've created a society where there simply isn't any room or space for young, poor people now. We either provide employment and opportunities and education, or sterilize them. Over to you leftys and righty's.

:agree: Dave Hill has it spot on here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2011/aug/08/things-i-believe-about-london-riots

[hibsbollah]

Read something on facebook...the only shop not looted in clapham junction last night: Waterstones. (disclaimer/clarification for the intellectually incoherent- reading a book does not necessarily stop a riot).

[Woody1985]

What's the chances that he'll have been an innocent bystander, who's a pillar of the community and just happened to be passing by before being set on by the Police for no reason? :rolleyes: Where did you read the police did it?Sounds like opportunism to me. If I were a wanna be gangster and I wanted to shoot someone in London I think the time would be now.

[BEEJ]

Not a bad article in the guardian

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots?cat=commentisfree&type=article
An unfortunate and misplaced sense of delight in there at the problems being caused for the current administration.

"...we could be about to see the government enter a sustained and serious losing streak."

Not really a great time for party politics. Nonetheless the schadenfreude is evident.

Maybe once the writer has himself / herself become a victim of arson, mugging, theft etc during these troubles, they can come back and give us an alternative context to these events.

[BEEJ]

:agree: Dave Hill has it spot on here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2011/aug/08/things-i-believe-about-london-riots
:agree:

A much more reasoned, considered and balanced viewpoint.

[lyonhibs]

1. Yes there are. Now a significant and growing proportion are committing arson, fighting police, stealing from shops and causing destruction. What are we going to do about it?

2. Not about justifying it. I don't think anybody is (or can.)

3. Yes. Repeat, so what are we doing about it?

Who is "we" in this instance?? There seems to be a whiff of the "it's up to someone else to sort out my problems" ethos - that has so pervaded UK (and - probably - Western) society in the past 10/20 years (or even longer back, I don't know for sure) - in the above post.

Since the 1980's - when British institutions such as the police really were racist in their nature - there has been a massive effort by police forces to communicate with communities and set up the structures for such communication to take place. These may not be perfect, but people claiming that these poor "frustrated youth" find themselves up against the same level of economic and societal challenges as back in the early 80's are - IMO - engaging in a hysterical over-exaggeration.

We had Red Ken on the tellybox last night, citing all sorts of scary figures - 9% cuts in overall council budgets in Tottenham etc etc - and how these riots were some sort of manifestation of people's latent frustration and despair at these cuts.

Well, if they had genuine concerns and wanted to meaningfully and lawfully convey these frustrations, we have the right to peaceful protest in this country, which they should have - as many have done before - excercised this right. These hooligans on the street are destroying propoerty, endangering life and terrifying innocent members of the public in their own areas.

That's like me taking the hump, and going on a rampage down London Road - doesn't make any sense, and isn't the actions of someone who is genuinely reacting to the changing political/economical environment they find themselves in.

It's probably not very popular to say it, but every single one of those rioters are mindless thugs (ignoring the waffle in The Guardian article) who have no motivation and no end goal beyond personal gratification and - in the case of looters - personal material gain.

IMO :greengrin

[scotia44]

I think the rioters need lots of hugs and maybe a trip or two to eurodisney:rolleyes:
that will sort them out then give them what they want and pat them on the head for seeing through the 2 weeks punishment!!:rolleyes:

I honestly cant believe people sometimes "well what do we do".
Tell you what we do stop egits that come out with comments like that being allowed anywhere near the ****ers as they will think its all ok because "they need a voice".

"I dont have a job" answer get one
"There arent any" answer yes there are if you look hard enough!
"I need new trainers, telly, game console" answer see above!

Tell them what they need to hear not what they want to hear.


When it happens to you lot we will see how you feel then, pretty sure it won't be the soft option you go for!

[carnoustiehibee]

1968: Powell slates immigration policy
The Conservative right-winger Enoch Powell has made a hard-hitting speech attacking the government's immigration policy.

Addressing a Conservative association meeting in Birmingham, Mr Powell said Britain had to be mad to allow in 50,000 dependents of immigrants each year.

He compared it to watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.

The MP for Wolverhampton South West called for an immediate reduction in immigration and the implementation of a Conservative policy of "urgent" encouragement of those already in the UK to return home.

"It can be no part of any policy that existing families should be kept divided. But there are two directions on which families can be reunited," he said.


Like the Roman, I seem to see the river Tiber foaming with much blood<br>
Enoch Powell <br>

Mr Powell compared enacting legislation such as the Race Relations Bill to "throwing a match on to gunpowder".

He said that as he looked to the future he was filled with a sense of foreboding.

"Like the Roman, I seem to see the river Tiber foaming with much blood," he said.

He estimated that by the year 2000 up to seven million people - or one in ten of the population - would be of immigrant descent.

Mr Powell, the shadow defence spokesman, was applauded during and after his 45-mintue speech.

However, it is likely his comments will be less warmly received by the Conservative party leader, Edward Heath.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html

More evidence that discussing the context behind the riots will not be tolerated.

[derekHFC]

Watching all these interviews with local politicians and such like and all they seem to be suggesting is that parents take responsibility for their kids and that the police are handling it. Now is it just me or is that the biggest lot of bull that you've ever heard?

This clearly isnt working and certainly from the footage that i've seen, the police arent stopping the looting, they're just moving the looters on to a new venue every so often by trying to disperse them.

Get the army in and let them disperse the looters and let the cops lift them. Pass a motion for quickfire court action to be taken and get this lot sorted before it escalates further.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I think the rioters need lots of hugs and maybe a trip or two to eurodisney:rolleyes:
that will sort them out then give them what they want and pat them on the head for seeing through the 2 weeks punishment!!:rolleyes:

I honestly cant believe people sometimes "well what do we do".
Tell you what we do stop egits that come out with comments like that being allowed anywhere near the ****ers as they will think its all ok because "they need a voice".

"I dont have a job" answer get one
"There arent any" answer yes there are if you look hard enough!
"I need new trainers, telly, game console" answer see above!

Tell them what they need to hear not what they want to hear.


When it happens to you lot we will see how you feel then, pretty sure it won't be the soft option you go for!

aye cos loads of folk are saying that :spammy:

[bighairyfaeleith]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html

More evidence that discussing the context behind the riots will not be tolerated.

not surprisingly there is a shockingly little quotes in that article,all he suggests this and that.

As usual both parties go one way or the other and completely miss the point.

[Steve-O]

I don't think that the points about social deprivation and these people being mindless thugs have to be mutually exclusive. As usual on here people think that people trying to explain the situation are condoning the behaviour which is not actually the case at all!

[discman]

Check out @riotcleanup the people start taking back their communities kick on !! :)

[scotia44]

I don't think that the points about social deprivation and these people being mindless thugs have to be mutually exclusive. As usual on here people think that people trying to explain the situation are condoning the behaviour which is not actually the case at all!

I think they do to the extent that you need to "expalin the situation"! Physcho babble for lets fudge the issue and treat them with kid gloves.

It happened because of thugs seeing the opportunity to commit crime whilst everyone sits on their hands discussing how to understand them.

The root of it is indiscipline and lack of respect for others and this country has for too long listened to the do gooders telling the governments and authorities how to manage them and look where its got us.
I was once a believer in trying to understand youth crime etc until I was mugged in London and I firmly believe now that listening and understanding doesn't work as they just rip the urine and laugh at their punishments. Thanks to certain groups who champion the criminal before the victim.

[magpie1892]

No, its trying to establish a C-O-N-T-E-X-T to whats happening. The only thing thats pathetic is the usual response of folk like you to any attempt to explain the circumstances behind something like this is to say 'oh, thats no excuse for violence, its just criminality'.

Trying, very B-A-D-L-Y, as evidenced by most of the comments.

If it's pathetic to describe looting shops as 'just criminality' then I am pathetic. There's no political subtext to looting - it's theft, plain and simple.

Thankfully those voices trying to contextualise this behaviour as something it's not are few in number.

[Steve-O]

I think they do to the extent that you need to "expalin the situation"! Physcho babble for lets fudge the issue and treat them with kid gloves.

It happened because of thugs seeing the opportunity to commit crime whilst everyone sits on their hands discussing how to understand them.

The root of it is indiscipline and lack of respect for others and this country has for too long listened to the do gooders telling the governments and authorities how to manage them and look where its got us.
I was once a believer in trying to understand youth crime etc until I was mugged in London and I firmly believe now that listening and understanding doesn't work as they just rip the urine and laugh at their punishments. Thanks to certain groups who champion the criminal before the victim.

All very well, but what is the root of the indiscipline and lack of respect?

You may say that treating them with 'kid gloves' doesn't work, but do you think that being harsher and treating them like s**t will solve it?

I don't know the solution but I'm not sure it's quite as easy as the harsher punishments that many call for at these times.

[Steve-O]

Trying, very B-A-D-L-Y, as evidenced by most of the comments.

If it's pathetic to describe looting shops as 'just criminality' then I am pathetic. There's no political subtext to looting - it's theft, plain and simple.

Thankfully those voices trying to contextualise this behaviour as something it's not are few in number.

Are well off youths out looting as well then are they?

[hibsbollah]

Trying, very B-A-D-L-Y, as evidenced by most of the comments.If it's pathetic to describe looting shops as 'just criminality' then I am pathetic. There's no political subtext to looting - it's theft, plain and simple.Thankfully those voices trying to contextualise this behaviour as something it's not are few in number.Don't be daft. Theres ALWAYS a context to everything. Its basic logic. If you dont believe in cause and effect you belong pre-fifteenth century.Personally speaking, what is your context on events? Political correctness? Mass immigration? Or maybe its all Billy Bragg's fault, as I read on a (serious!) Blog earlier :-)

[Twa Cairpets]

I think they do to the extent that you need to "expalin the situation"! Physcho babble for lets fudge the issue and treat them with kid gloves.

It happened because of thugs seeing the opportunity to commit crime whilst everyone sits on their hands discussing how to understand them.

The root of it is indiscipline and lack of respect for others and this country has for too long listened to the do gooders telling the governments and authorities how to manage them and look where its got us.
I was once a believer in trying to understand youth crime etc until I was mugged in London and I firmly believe now that listening and understanding doesn't work as they just rip the urine and laugh at their punishments. Thanks to certain groups who champion the criminal before the victim.

There are criminal opportunists, there are people who are deprived (either voluntarily or through being caught in the middle of a recession), there are thugs and there are unfortunates.

To adopt the kind of eqully mindless response you are suggesting will not help. You seem to equate "do-gooders" with people actually taking a step back and thinking about what HAS caused the riots. If it is, ultimately, just base criminality, then why has it suddenly exploded? what was the catalyst? Its nothing to do with people suggesting, as you fatuously suggested in your first post, trips to disneyland. That is just stupidity and adds precisely zero to any discussion.

Anyone with a scintilla of sense will condem the actions of wanton looters and rioters. Equally, anyone with an ounce of sense will realise that to avoid it happening again, the reasons for it happening this time need to be understood.

[Betty Boop]

Don't be daft. Theres ALWAYS a context to everything. Its basic logic. If you dont believe in cause and effect you belong pre-fifteenth century.Personally speaking, what is your context on events? Political correctness? Mass immigration? Or maybe its all Billy Bragg's fault, as I read on a (serious!) Blog earlier :-)

I blame the royal wedding. The last time there was a royal wedding and riots in the same year Liverpool won the league. :greengrin

[Darth Hibbie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded#at=30

:bitchy: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded#at=30)

[magpie1892]

Are well off youths out looting as well then are they?

Dunno, why not find out and get back to us?

It's OK to steal if you're poor - that's good to know.

c.14-year-old girl on Sky News last night when challenged about why she was looting replied 'I'm taking my taxes back', so as a taxpaying child, she must be doing ok I guess.

The Sony Centre in Enfield is still on fire - a fitting end to that bastion of the Evil Empire that sells high-end electronic goods. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Get a grip of yourself FFS.

[magpie1892]

Don't be daft. Theres ALWAYS a context to everything. Its basic logic. If you dont believe in cause and effect you belong pre-fifteenth century.Personally speaking, what is your context on events? Political correctness? Mass immigration? Or maybe its all Billy Bragg's fault, as I read on a (serious!) Blog earlier :-)

I'm struggling to see a motive other than: 'I want something and someone else should pay'.

The home invasions being reported on Sky are not easily explained either.

I repeat, the Guardian article got the responses it deserved btl not only from 'tory trolls' (i.e. anyone who holds an opinion even slightly out of synch with modern 'liberal' thinking) but from posters who've been on there many, may years and would self-describe as socialists and progressives. Ally F, for example, whose comment rubbished the article and, as of last night, had about 600 recommends.

[magpie1892]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded#at=30

:bitchy: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded#at=30)

Blame the cuts - like Ken Livingston. There haven't actually been any yet, but no matter.

Don't know why you're shaking your head though, these kids are making a serious political point about how they've been disenfranchised.

[Bishop Hibee]

There are criminal opportunists, there are people who are deprived (either voluntarily or through being caught in the middle of a recession), there are thugs and there are unfortunates.

To adopt the kind of eqully mindless response you are suggesting will not help. You seem to equate "do-gooders" with people actually taking a step back and thinking about what HAS caused the riots. If it is, ultimately, just base criminality, then why has it suddenly exploded? what was the catalyst? Its nothing to do with people suggesting, as you fatuously suggested in your first post, trips to disneyland. That is just stupidity and adds precisely zero to any discussion.

Anyone with a scintilla of sense will condem the actions of wanton looters and rioters. Equally, anyone with an ounce of sense will realise that to avoid it happening again, the reasons for it happening this time need to be understood.

Good post.

In my opinion these riots are being carried out for very different reasons than the ones in the 80's. The 80's riots had a far more left wing political edge to them. Rioters talked of their estrangement and the need for greater equality and respect for themselves and their communities. These riots are being carried out by young people who have nothing to lose as they have no stake in society. They get self worth by the material possessions they have which explains the looting of sports shops and electrical equipment. I'm sure a lot struggle to get self worth from the disfunctional families they come from. A radical rethink in how children and any parent(s) they have at home engage with education, social work and the community round them is needed.

If it continues then I can see water cannon and even a curfew in areas of London.

I only hope that the return to the 80's isn't mirrored by Hibs form in that decade.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Is it just me, or did the coverage of last night's riots consist of repeating shots of the same burning building from different angles? Media coverage will do more to intensify this situation than anything else. The very presence of a film crew will be enough to encourage some "high spirited youths" to act up. IMO.

[hibsbollah]

I'm struggling to see a motive other than: 'I want something and someone else should pay'.The home invasions being reported on Sky are not easily explained either.I repeat, the Guardian article got the responses it deserved btl not only from 'tory trolls' (i.e. anyone who holds an opinion even slightly out of synch with modern 'liberal' thinking) but from posters who've been on there many, may years and would self-describe as socialists and progressives. Ally F, for example, whose comment rubbished the article and, as of last night, had about 600 recommends.You're confusing 'motive' and 'context'. Noone is saying rioting is a good or justifiable response.Let me put it this way. Police numbers are being cut across london. Policemen are on duty policing a spurs game 2 nights ago while residents say nothing is being done to protect them. 8 of 13 youth clubs in the borough involved were closed last week (and reported last week in theguardian, as it happens).Do the cuts to police numbers and youth provision not provide a CONTEXT to what has happened? If you think not, it follows you think police numbers are irrelevant to public safety.

[magpie1892]

You're confusing 'motive' and 'context'. Noone is saying rioting is a good or justifiable response.Let me put it this way. Police numbers are being cut across london. Policemen are on duty policing a spurs game 2 nights ago while residents say nothing is being done to protect them. 8 of 13 youth clubs in the borough involved were closed last week (and reported last week in theguardian, as it happens).Do the cuts to police numbers and youth provision not provide a CONTEXT to what has happened? If you think not, it follows you think police numbers are irrelevant go public safety.

I'm not confusing the two, I am really failing to identify a context... The Guardian piece attempts to blame 'tory cuts' and, whether you like the government or not, this is piffle and would remain piffle even if public expenditure were not still rising.

It would be nice to have this contextualised in a way that one could read and say: 'dammit, he's right', but, like many others, I'm all ears. In the interim, we must condemn this behaviour for what it is: violent shopping and really rather creepy home invasions.

[CropleyWasGod]

Will this not play right into the Met's hands?

Given that they were already at war with Teresa May, and given what she said about civil unrest in the UK.....http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/15/theresa-may-cut-police-budget-without-violent-unrest...... this can only strengthen their case against job cuts.

[Steve-O]

Dunno, why not find out and get back to us?

It's OK to steal if you're poor - that's good to know.

c.14-year-old girl on Sky News last night when challenged about why she was looting replied 'I'm taking my taxes back', so as a taxpaying child, she must be doing ok I guess.

The Sony Centre in Enfield is still on fire - a fitting end to that bastion of the Evil Empire that sells high-end electronic goods. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Get a grip of yourself FFS.


Why don't you get a grip of yourself. Where exactly did I say it is ok to steal if you are poor?! It's definitely not ok, but it's probably part of the explanation. Not many rich burglars around are there??

[Steve-O]

Good post.

In my opinion these riots are being carried out for very different reasons than the ones in the 80's. The 80's riots had a far more left wing political edge to them. Rioters talked of their estrangement and the need for greater equality and respect for themselves and their communities. These riots are being carried out by young people who have nothing to lose as they have no stake in society. They get self worth by the material possessions they have which explains the looting of sports shops and electrical equipment. I'm sure a lot struggle to get self worth from the disfunctional families they come from. A radical rethink in how children and any parent(s) they have at home engage with education, social work and the community round them is needed.

If it continues then I can see water cannon and even a curfew in areas of London.

I only hope that the return to the 80's isn't mirrored by Hibs form in that decade.

Too late!

[lapsedhibee]

Why don't you get a grip of yourself. Where exactly did I say it is ok to steal if you are poor?! It's definitely not ok, but it's probably part of the explanation. Not many rich burglars around are there??

There would be if they did their job properly! I blame the demise in proper apprenticeships, which dates back to the Thatcher years.

[heretoday]

There are criminal opportunists, there are people who are deprived (either voluntarily or through being caught in the middle of a recession), there are thugs and there are unfortunates.

To adopt the kind of eqully mindless response you are suggesting will not help. You seem to equate "do-gooders" with people actually taking a step back and thinking about what HAS caused the riots. If it is, ultimately, just base criminality, then why has it suddenly exploded? what was the catalyst? Its nothing to do with people suggesting, as you fatuously suggested in your first post, trips to disneyland. That is just stupidity and adds precisely zero to any discussion.

Anyone with a scintilla of sense will condem the actions of wanton looters and rioters. Equally, anyone with an ounce of sense will realise that to avoid it happening again, the reasons for it happening this time need to be understood.

Wise words.

[khib70]

Who is "we" in this instance?? There seems to be a whiff of the "it's up to someone else to sort out my problems" ethos - that has so pervaded UK (and - probably - Western) society in the past 10/20 years (or even longer back, I don't know for sure) - in the above post.

Since the 1980's - when British institutions such as the police really were racist in their nature - there has been a massive effort by police forces to communicate with communities and set up the structures for such communication to take place. These may not be perfect, but people claiming that these poor "frustrated youth" find themselves up against the same level of economic and societal challenges as back in the early 80's are - IMO - engaging in a hysterical over-exaggeration.

We had Red Ken on the tellybox last night, citing all sorts of scary figures - 9% cuts in overall council budgets in Tottenham etc etc - and how these riots were some sort of manifestation of people's latent frustration and despair at these cuts.

Well, if they had genuine concerns and wanted to meaningfully and lawfully convey these frustrations, we have the right to peaceful protest in this country, which they should have - as many have done before - excercised this right. These hooligans on the street are destroying propoerty, endangering life and terrifying innocent members of the public in their own areas.

That's like me taking the hump, and going on a rampage down London Road - doesn't make any sense, and isn't the actions of someone who is genuinely reacting to the changing political/economical environment they find themselves in.

It's probably not very popular to say it, but every single one of those rioters are mindless thugs (ignoring the waffle in The Guardian article) who have no motivation and no end goal beyond personal gratification and - in the case of looters - personal material gain.

IMO :greengrin

And in mine .

Excellent post.

It's extraordinary that people sitting in the comfort of their unburnt and unlooted homes can pump out intellectuallised waffle about "context". Equally extraordinary that people think that this is "the community" speaking out against injustice. Why are communities being defined in terms of their most malevolent and anti-social members. The rioters are outwith any definition of "community" - they are out for themselves and their own personal enrichment and gratification. The real "community" are the shopkeepers whose livelihood has been destroyed, the families burnt out of their homes, the working people whose jobs have gone up in flames.

Everything has a "context" - yes,that's true. Kristallnacht, Serbian atrocities in Bosnia, genocide in Rwanda. It doesn't in any way detract from or excuse the malevolence of what is done. People are responsible for their actions and the consequences, and it is lazy thinking to see them as actors in a puppet show, with the strings pulled by "context".

[Hibrandenburg]

Are well off youths out looting as well then are they?

Yes! There are reports of youths loading their (not stolen) expensive cars with looted goods. These cars are being parked in adjacent streets to allow quick getaways.

This and the fact that co-ordination is being organised via Blackberry Messager would suggest that it's not only societies weakest who are out looting.

[steakbake]

Who is "we" in this instance?? There seems to be a whiff of the "it's up to someone else to sort out my problems" ethos - that has so pervaded UK (and - probably - Western) society in the past 10/20 years (or even longer back, I don't know for sure) - in the above post.

Since the 1980's - when British institutions such as the police really were racist in their nature - there has been a massive effort by police forces to communicate with communities and set up the structures for such communication to take place. These may not be perfect, but people claiming that these poor "frustrated youth" find themselves up against the same level of economic and societal challenges as back in the early 80's are - IMO - engaging in a hysterical over-exaggeration.

We had Red Ken on the tellybox last night, citing all sorts of scary figures - 9% cuts in overall council budgets in Tottenham etc etc - and how these riots were some sort of manifestation of people's latent frustration and despair at these cuts.

Well, if they had genuine concerns and wanted to meaningfully and lawfully convey these frustrations, we have the right to peaceful protest in this country, which they should have - as many have done before - excercised this right. These hooligans on the street are destroying propoerty, endangering life and terrifying innocent members of the public in their own areas.

That's like me taking the hump, and going on a rampage down London Road - doesn't make any sense, and isn't the actions of someone who is genuinely reacting to the changing political/economical environment they find themselves in.

It's probably not very popular to say it, but every single one of those rioters are mindless thugs (ignoring the waffle in The Guardian article) who have no motivation and no end goal beyond personal gratification and - in the case of looters - personal material gain.

IMO :greengrin


A great post. :top marks

This is nothing about some kind of disaffected youth raging against the Tory cuts and everything about the kind of society that has been developed in Britain over the last 20 years.

Of the footage I have seen, I haven't seen people chanting about ending the cuts. I have however, seen a few in the line of "Bet Debenhams has got loads of watches, innit?".

This is the kind of stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fsRwwQJdKjE

If they were smashing up the banks etc then the kind of hand wringers telling us it's the bankers' fault might have a point as it is, I don't think JJB and Sony were the ones who brought the banking crisis.

[degenerated]

Looting has hit Manchester now. Arsene Wenger spotted having it on his toes out of the old Trafford trophy room with an armful of silverware. :greengrin

[--------]

There are criminal opportunists, there are people who are deprived (either voluntarily or through being caught in the middle of a recession), there are thugs and there are unfortunates.

To adopt the kind of eqully mindless response you are suggesting will not help. You seem to equate "do-gooders" with people actually taking a step back and thinking about what HAS caused the riots. If it is, ultimately, just base criminality, then why has it suddenly exploded? what was the catalyst? Its nothing to do with people suggesting, as you fatuously suggested in your first post, trips to disneyland. That is just stupidity and adds precisely zero to any discussion.

Anyone with a scintilla of sense will condem the actions of wanton looters and rioters. Equally, anyone with an ounce of sense will realise that to avoid it happening again, the reasons for it happening this time need to be understood.


Yup. Totally agree. :agree:

[Twa Cairpets]

Having a look through this thread and a few other blogs/news feeds, the reaction of those who may be described as somewhat to the right politically has been one of "bloody liberals trying to hug a hoodie!" "condem more understand less!" "thugs, bottom line, bring in the army" "hand wringers blaming everyone but the toerags who do it". (I paraphrase, but only a bit).

At the same time, apart from a few petty political points being made, I dont think anyone credible is defending the actions of the looters or rioters. I don't think "It's extraordinary that people sitting in the comfort of their unburnt and unlooted homes can pump out intellectuallised waffle about "context". " Of course people are going to discuss it, and try to contextaulise it - this is not a bad thing. It is the first step in actually doing something to stop repetition when the immedite problems die down.

There seems to be a backlash against a non-existent defence of the rioters propagated by the liberal mafia. The anger is justified, but as is almost always the case, the reaction is to come out with a few catch phrases of righteous indignation and red-faced fury without actually engaging the brain to think of 1) Why has it happened, and 2) What needs to be done to stop it happening again. The answers to both of these may ultimately be unpleasant to those at either end of the political spectrum and points inbetween.

It is not a case of empathising with rioters or judtifying their actions in a "there there" kind of way, but with understanding the motives (even if it is just pure base greed) to ensure no repetition.

[SlickShoes]

Yes! There are reports of youths loading their (not stolen) expensive cars with looted goods. These cars are being parked in adjacent streets to allow quick getaways.

This and the fact that co-ordination is being organised via Blackberry Messager would suggest that it's not only societies weakest who are out looting.

What do you class as an expensive car? How do you know its not stolen?

Using blackberry messenger is hardly a pursuit of the affluent members of society.

I have a mate that hasn't worked for 7-8 years and he has his own council house, a car and an iphone. He is hardly rich.

[SOL1875]

Don't think anyone has posted this link.

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/08/scrubbed-media-live-bbc-interview-witness-claiming-police-beating-girl-sparked-london-riots-52191/

[scotia44]

All very well, but what is the root of the indiscipline and lack of respect?

You may say that treating them with 'kid gloves' doesn't work, but do you think that being harsher and treating them like s**t will solve it?

I don't know the solution but I'm not sure it's quite as easy as the harsher punishments that many call for at these times.

I don't have an answer either but they need to be taught right from wrong and clearly kid gloves hasn't worked but hey we better not hurt there feelings whilst they rob and burn buildings.

And treating them 'like s**t' you say, is that not how they are treating others?

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'm not confusing the two, I am really failing to identify a context... The Guardian piece attempts to blame 'tory cuts' and, whether you like the government or not, this is piffle and would remain piffle even if public expenditure were not still rising.

It would be nice to have this contextualised in a way that one could read and say: 'dammit, he's right', but, like many others, I'm all ears. In the interim, we must condemn this behaviour for what it is: violent shopping and really rather creepy home invasions.

Your right the cuts line is piffle, however this trouble has been sparked and as a progressive country we should take steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Whats wrong with that?

No one is saying moddy coddle the kids

No one is saying send them to disneyland

No one is saying the rioting is right

Try reading peoples posts!!

[Twa Cairpets]

I don't have an answer either but they need to be taught right from wrong and clearly kid gloves hasn't worked but hey we better not hurt there feelings whilst they rob and burn buildings.

And treating them 'like s**t' you say, is that not how they are treating others?

You keep coming up with this crap that no-one has said or suggested. You just carry on railing against the straw-man rather than suggesting anything that might actually help it not happen again.

The guys who can be identified should be caught and hammered. Steps should be taken to make sure nothing like it happens again by education - that'll be teaching what is right and wrong. Or are you advocating that they should be "treated like s**t" as a template for right and wrong?

[scotia44]

There are criminal opportunists, there are people who are deprived (either voluntarily or through being caught in the middle of a recession), there are thugs and there are unfortunates.

To adopt the kind of eqully mindless response you are suggesting will not help. You seem to equate "do-gooders" with people actually taking a step back and thinking about what HAS caused the riots. If it is, ultimately, just base criminality, then why has it suddenly exploded? what was the catalyst? Its nothing to do with people suggesting, as you fatuously suggested in your first post, trips to disneyland. That is just stupidity and adds precisely zero to any discussion.

Anyone with a scintilla of sense will condem the actions of wanton looters and rioters. Equally, anyone with an ounce of sense will realise that to avoid it happening again, the reasons for it happening this time need to be understood.

The cause of the riots are cowardly gangs taking liberties as they know there will be no punishment in return.
Its time this country stood up to people who want to live like this opposed to the underhand extortion governments are getting held to by so called focus groups etc.

We have understood it from the last time! as quoted by a prominent community leader
How many steps have we to take back?
We will never stop this from happening but there has to be a deterent to make them think about doing it again and allowing our police to bring them to justice without the fear they are going to be patted on the head and told not to do it again

[DaveF]

If I hear Theresa May say "sheer criminality" one more time, I might just rampage through my office and start a riot :rolleyes:

[silverhibee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded#at=30

:bitchy: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=player_embedded#at=30)


****ing ****bags the lot of them, it wont be long before vigalante groups are on the streets taking the law in to there own hands and dealing out punishments to these ****bags, who could blame them either, the police need to get tougher with these idiots and get stuck in to them and hand out what they are recieving, to many police just standing by watching this anarchy in London and not doing anything while they watch shops and house's being ransacked people being assaulted, they need to start lifting as many as these idiots as possible and putting them in some make shift jail, maybe a floating jail.
What wee are seeing on the TV is only encouraging other people around the country to go on the rampage as they see the police stand back and let it happen, time for tough action, **** there human rights.

[DaveF]

****ing ****bags the lot of them, it wont be long before vigalante groups are on the streets taking the law in to there own hands and dealing out punishments to these ****bags, who could blame them either, the police need to get tougher with these idiots and get stuck in to them and hand out what they are recieving, to many police just standing by watching this anarchy in London and not doing anything while they watch shops and house's being ransacked people being assaulted, they need to start lifting as many as these idiots as possible and putting them in some make shift jail, maybe a floating jail.
What wee are seeing on the TV is only encouraging other people around the country to go on the rampage as they see the police stand back and let it happen, time for tough action, **** there human rights.

The Met will be too afraid of the army of opportunists ready to stick the boot in with legal claims of brute force, racial harrasment and so on.

[CropleyWasGod]

The Met will be too afraid of the army of opportunists ready to stick the boot in with legal claims of brute force, racial harrasment and so on.

No, they know what they are doing.

Once the dust had settled, they will turn to Teresa May and say "we told you so.... now stop cutting our numbers."

[silverhibee]

Is it just me, or did the coverage of last night's riots consist of repeating shots of the same burning building from different angles? Media coverage will do more to intensify this situation than anything else. The very presence of a film crew will be enough to encourage some "high spirited youths" to act up. IMO.


That also happened the night of the Tottenham riot, but it was mainly down to reporters and camera men and satalite vans being attacked by the rioters, or just simply not safe enough for these people to do there jobs safely in these areas.

[RyeSloan]

To be honest I'm struggling to see a context for any of this....normally there is some kind of clear underlying theme that can be used to understand some of the anger and frustration. However in this case I've not seen any anger or frustration (apart from all the poor people who have lost their homes and businesses) from the ‘rioters’, they are not protesting against anything and I find myself mightily confused. Although the coverage has been patchy it does appear to be nothing more than opportunist violence and if anything exposes just how unprepared the police are for such events and just how far a few can punish the many with their selfish actions.

There may well be a time for contextualising and understanding the underlying reasons (although I’m not holding my breath for anything that would remotely justify these actions) but it’s not now and these rioters should be condemned in the strongest way possible and continue to be so until order is restored.

[silverhibee]

The Met will be too afraid of the army of opportunists ready to stick the boot in with legal claims of brute force, racial harrasment and so on.


Looks like the Met are getting tough for tonight, they will use rubber bullets on these idiots causing mayhem in London, as i said **** there rights, the police made it clear last night for spectators to clear the streets and for parents to make sure there children were home and if not then to get them inside as soon as possible, anyone else left on the streets have no rights at all and if they are caught up in violence, then tough cookies if they get a kicking from the police.

I now see the guy who was shot last night has died, was he a gangster or some guy maybe trying to protect his property, it is lucky that there has not been more deaths with the amount of properties and houses that were set on fire last night, these people have no rights at all and deserve everything they get from the police and hopefully the courts will hand out big sentences for those found guilty of these crimes.

[Betty Boop]

Looks like the Met are getting tough for tonight, they will use rubber bullets on these idiots causing mayhem in London, as i said **** there rights, the police made it clear last night for spectators to clear the streets and for parents to make sure there children were home and if not then to get them inside as soon as possible, anyone else left on the streets have no rights at all and if they are caught up in violence, then tough cookies if they get a kicking from the police.

I now see the guy who was shot last night has died, was he a gangster or some guy maybe trying to protect his property, it is lucky that there has not been more deaths with the amount of properties and houses that were set on fire last night, these people have no rights at all and deserve everything they get from the police and hopefully the courts will hand out big sentences for those found guilty of these crimes.

Where does it say that the Met will be using rubber bullets ?

[silverhibee]

Where does it say that the Met will be using rubber bullets ?


Sorry it is plastic bullets they will use. Sky News.

[Betty Boop]

Sorry it is plastic bullets they will use. Sky News.

Rubber bullets or plastic bullets, a worrying developement imo. That tactic didn't seem to do much to quell violence in Northern Ireland.

[Beefster]

If only I stayed in London so that I could 'protest' against the Man. I need a new iPhone, plasma TV and laptop.

[bighairyfaeleith]

If only I stayed in London so that I could 'protest' against the Man. I need a new iPhone, plasma TV and laptop.

apparently lots of tv's just got left in the street as they are to big to carry, greedy *******s should have went for something smaller:greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

The cause of the riots are cowardly gangs taking liberties as they know there will be no punishment in return.
Its time this country stood up to people who want to live like this opposed to the underhand extortion governments are getting held to by so called focus groups etc.

We have understood it from the last time! as quoted by a prominent community leader
How many steps have we to take back?
We will never stop this from happening but there has to be a deterent to make them think about doing it again and allowing our police to bring them to justice without the fear they are going to be patted on the head and told not to do it again

Bits in bold - trite nonsense again, alongside your third post of spittle-filled fury.

The cause of the riots is not cowardly gangs. That is the outcome of circumstances that have led to the riots taking place. How would you recommend the "country stands up"?

Maybe have the police hang a few in summary justice? Possibly go in and teach them a lesson they wont forget down an alleyway, out of the sight of CCTV? Or maybe just heard them all into one big camp and euthanise the lot of them?

I would have wanted the response to hav ebeen stronger and firmer. I want every last one of the looters and rioters who can be caught arrested and jailed for as long as possible. I would like to see some type of restorative justice where, in addition to jail, the costs of the crime are visited on the criminal.

What your kind of frothing, pulsating anger lacks is the ability to see beyond the immediate problem. Crack down on policing, curtail those oh-so terrible civil liberties, maybe have a curfew where the undesirables live does nothing other than increase the sense of persecution whether or not it is justified. Part of the price we have to pay in living in a country like the UK is that in order ot beneefot from all the good things, we have to continually fight against the bad crap can emerge from living in a relatively free society as well.

[Bishop Hibee]

The cause of the riots are cowardly gangs taking liberties as they know there will be no punishment in return.
Its time this country stood up to people who want to live like this opposed to the underhand extortion governments are getting held to by so called focus groups etc.

We have understood it from the last time! as quoted by a prominent community leader
How many steps have we to take back?
We will never stop this from happening but there has to be a deterent to make them think about doing it again and allowing our police to bring them to justice without the fear they are going to be patted on the head and told not to do it again

Mince. Extortion by focus groups :faf:

No one will, or ever has, patted rioters and looters on the head in this country. Those caught, if found guilty, will receive stiff prison sentences. It's the fact they don't care that is the worrying thing. I think getting caught is a risk they are willing to take as by having no meaningful connection with what the vast majority of us call society they have little to lose.

[--------]

To be honest I'm struggling to see a context for any of this....normally there is some kind of clear underlying theme that can be used to understand some of the anger and frustration. However in this case I've not seen any anger or frustration (apart from all the poor people who have lost their homes and businesses) from the ‘rioters’, they are not protesting against anything and I find myself mightily confused. Although the coverage has been patchy it does appear to be nothing more than opportunist violence and if anything exposes just how unprepared the police are for such events and just how far a few can punish the many with their selfish actions.

There may well be a time for contextualising and understanding the underlying reasons (although I’m not holding my breath for anything that would remotely justify these actions) but it’s not now and these rioters should be condemned in the strongest way possible and continue to be so until order is restored.


Without in any way condoning or excusing violence or criminal behaviour, perhaps part of the context for these events is a society where legislators have recently gone to prison for stealing money by falsifying their expense claims - and many more (including a recent Home Secretary) SHOULD have gone to prison but somehow weaseled out of it?

Where the Metropolitan Police have acquired an unenviable reputation for corruption - two senior officers are currently suspended on charges of being in the pocket of some of the sleaziest and most irresponsible elements of the gutter press, for instance?

Where every now and again the same Police force shoots or otherwise kills someone who isn't actually engaged in any illegal activity whatsoever, and then uses the courts to effect a cover-up of the facts of the case?

Where the gutter press is more interested in vile gossip about people's personal lives than news, and where the people who buy the newspapers are happy to be titillated by that gossip, but hold up hypocritical hands in horror whenever a tabloid journo gets caught eavesdropping on someone's cellphone? But will still go on buying the stinking rags because that's the level we live at these days?

Where expenditure on vital inner-city services is being cut ruthlessly, while fat-cat financiers and their political cronies are looked after with huge bonus payments, salaries and pensions? A society with no rational policy regarding the control of the sale of alcohol; which is losing the "war" on drugs catastrophically? A society obsessed with material wealth but little or no sense of the value of human relationships? A society which has lost its moral compass long ago - maybe when Margaret Thatcher let the dogs of greed loose with the declaration that there IS no such thing as society?

My old Latin master was seriously off the planet at times, but he did teach me one Latin tag that seems appropriate here - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - who keeps an eye on the guardians of society when those guardians - legislators, community leaders, police - all have their snouts so deep in the trough that they can't see over the rim? And what possible moral authority can our present Parliament claim when we see its members behaving in the way they do? OR the Metropolitan Police for that matter?

[Pretty Boy]

Without in any way condoning or excusing violence or criminal behaviour, perhaps part of the context for these events is a society where legislators have recently gone to prison for stealing money by falsifying their expense claims - and many more (including a recent Home Secretary) SHOULD have gone to prison but somehow weaseled out of it?

Where the Metropolitan Police have acquired an unenviable reputation for corruption - two senior officers are currently suspended on charges of being in the pocket of some of the sleaziest and most irresponsible elements of the gutter press, for instance?

Where every now and again the same Police force shoots or otherwise kills someone who isn't actually engaged in any illegal activity whatsoever, and then uses the courts to effect a cover-up of the facts of the case?

Where the gutter press is more interested in vile gossip about people's personal lives than news, and where the people who buy the newspapers are happy to be titillated by that gossip, but hold up hypocritical hands in horror whenever a tabloid journo gets caught eavesdropping on someone's cellphone? But will still go on buying the stinking rags because that's the level we live at these days?

Where expenditure on vital inner-city services is being cut ruthlessly, while fat-cat financiers and their political cronies are looked after with huge bonus payments, salaries and pensions? A society with no rational policy regarding the control of the sale of alcohol; which is losing the "war" on drugs catastrophically? A society obsessed with material wealth but little or no sense of the value of human relationships? A society which has lost its moral compass long ago - maybe when Margaret Thatcher let the dogs of greed loose with the declaration that there IS no such thing as society?

My old Latin master was seriously off the planet at times, but he did teach me one Latin tag that seems appropriate here - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - who keeps an eye on the guardians of society when those guardians - legislators, community leaders, police - all have their snouts so deep in the trough that they can't see over the rim? And what possible moral authority can our present Parliament claim when we see its members behaving in the way they do? OR the Metropolitan Police for that matter?

Excellent post.

On another note what seems to have gone unreported in the last few hours is that initial tests on a bullet found in a Police Officers radio have show it to be a Police issue bullet therefore throwing into doubt the Police story that the man killed fired on them first, his gun was found to be a replica. An eyewitness has also stated she saw the Police drag the man from his car and shoot him 4 times whilst he was held down. I'm not condoning mindless thuggery but if that happened to a member of my community i'd be tempted to take some kind of stand.

[Future17]

Excellent post.

On another note what seems to have gone unreported in the last few hours is that initial tests on a bullet found in a Police Officers radio have show it to be a Police issue bullet therefore throwing into doubt the Police story that the man killed fired on them first, his gun was found to be a replica. An eyewitness has also stated she saw the Police drag the man from his car and shoot him 4 times whilst he was held down. I'm not condoning mindless thuggery but if that happened to a member of my community i'd be tempted to take some kind of stand.

Bit in bold - Where did you read/hear that?

Bit underlined - seems contrary to what the Coroner reported as he said the guy died from a single gun shot wound to the chest. No mention was made of additional bullet wounds.

[Pretty Boy]

Bit in bold - Where did you read/hear that?

Bit underlined - seems contrary to what the Coroner reported as he said the guy died from a single gun shot wound to the chest. No mention was made of additional bullet wounds.

It was in tiny side columns in most of the papers this morning.

Having read again it appears the lady said she saw him being dragged and held down and heard 4 gunshots. I suppose it's possible that only one hit.

[sambajustice]

To be honest I'm struggling to see a context for any of this....normally there is some kind of clear underlying theme that can be used to understand some of the anger and frustration. However in this case I've not seen any anger or frustration (apart from all the poor people who have lost their homes and businesses) from the ‘rioters’, they are not protesting against anything and I find myself mightily confused. Although the coverage has been patchy it does appear to be nothing more than opportunist violence and if anything exposes just how unprepared the police are for such events and just how far a few can punish the many with their selfish actions.

There may well be a time for contextualising and understanding the underlying reasons (although I’m not holding my breath for anything that would remotely justify these actions) but it’s not now and these rioters should be condemned in the strongest way possible and continue to be so until order is restored.


Rioting fowk ken whits gaun oan!!!

[Pretty Boy]

Rioting fowk ken whits gaun oan!!!

:greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

Without in any way condoning or excusing violence or criminal behaviour, perhaps part of the context for these events is a society where legislators have recently gone to prison for stealing money by falsifying their expense claims - and many more (including a recent Home Secretary) SHOULD have gone to prison but somehow weaseled out of it?

Where the Metropolitan Police have acquired an unenviable reputation for corruption - two senior officers are currently suspended on charges of being in the pocket of some of the sleaziest and most irresponsible elements of the gutter press, for instance?

Where every now and again the same Police force shoots or otherwise kills someone who isn't actually engaged in any illegal activity whatsoever, and then uses the courts to effect a cover-up of the facts of the case?

Where the gutter press is more interested in vile gossip about people's personal lives than news, and where the people who buy the newspapers are happy to be titillated by that gossip, but hold up hypocritical hands in horror whenever a tabloid journo gets caught eavesdropping on someone's cellphone? But will still go on buying the stinking rags because that's the level we live at these days?

Where expenditure on vital inner-city services is being cut ruthlessly, while fat-cat financiers and their political cronies are looked after with huge bonus payments, salaries and pensions? A society with no rational policy regarding the control of the sale of alcohol; which is losing the "war" on drugs catastrophically? A society obsessed with material wealth but little or no sense of the value of human relationships? A society which has lost its moral compass long ago - maybe when Margaret Thatcher let the dogs of greed loose with the declaration that there IS no such thing as society?

My old Latin master was seriously off the planet at times, but he did teach me one Latin tag that seems appropriate here - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - who keeps an eye on the guardians of society when those guardians - legislators, community leaders, police - all have their snouts so deep in the trough that they can't see over the rim? And what possible moral authority can our present Parliament claim when we see its members behaving in the way they do? OR the Metropolitan Police for that matter?

I agree with a lot of that but the danger is that tarring everyone with the same brush automatically removes the possibility of anyone being trustworthy. You I am sure in your role are seen as a community leader, and I've read nothing to suggest you're troughing it. I know, MPs and councillors who are dedicated and hard working and honestly believe their prime role is to help people and their community.

The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, in reference to Zaphod Beeblebrox's Presidency of the Galaxy:


The major problem - one of the major problems - for there are several - one of the many major problems with governing people is that of who you get to do it. Or, rather, of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarise: it is a well-known and much lamented fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarise the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made president should, on no account, be allowed to do the job. To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem. And so this is the situation we find. A succession of Galactic Presidents who so much enjoy the fun and palaver of being in power that they never really notice that they’re not. And somewhere in the shadows behind them, who? Who can possibly rule if no one who wants to, can be allowed to?

[steakbake]

It was in tiny side columns in most of the papers this morning.

Having read again it appears the lady said she saw him being dragged and held down and heard 4 gunshots. I suppose it's possible that only one hit.

No-one rioted after Jean Charles De Menezes was killed in cold blood by the police - there perhaps should have been. Despite the various inquiries which white washed the whole situation, there weren't gangs of folk out on the street smashing up shops and looting across the country.

Decent people no doubt try to ascribe reasons to senseless acts. However, I don't think that at the forefront of the rioters and looters' minds is some kind of romantic anger and resentment at a corrupt police force, MPs expenses and the rights and wrongs of a capitalist society.

I think the mentality that sees people out on the streets trashing things is the same kind of mentality that were behind the riots in the gardens in Glasgow during the royal wedding: basic idiocy, anonymity in a group and a temporary situation where the law appears powerless to intervene. It's an opportunity to kick off, grab stuff and probably pretty much get away with it in the vast majority of cases.

Compare the idiots rioting in our streets and the riots happening in Syria where people are protesting against a brutal regime. Of these two, which are more justified and have a proper, credible, coherent context that you can actually understand?

[ChooseLife]

anyone notice that about 90% of the protesters are of a similar style :greengrin

[Barney McGrew]

On another note what seems to have gone unreported in the last few hours is that initial tests on a bullet found in a Police Officers radio have show it to be a Police issue bullet therefore throwing into doubt the Police story that the man killed fired on them first, his gun was found to be a replica. An eyewitness has also stated she saw the Police drag the man from his car and shoot him 4 times whilst he was held down. I'm not condoning mindless thuggery but if that happened to a member of my community i'd be tempted to take some kind of stand.

The inquest opened this morning has stated he died from a single bullet wound - I doubt that Police are that poor a shot that they'd have missed him three times while he was being held down :wink:. BBC, Sky and others are also reporting this afternoon that the gun was not a replica as previously rumored, but was capable of firing live rounds.

I guess this just shows the kind of rumour and counter rumour that are doing the rounds, and no doubt fuelling the flames in the areas where these incidents are being played out. The quicker the real facts can come out the better.

[Betty Boop]

Bumbling Boris is heckled in Croydon.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-day-four-live-blog

[hibsbollah]

Geordie, Welsh and Yorkshire police being reported in the capital. I suppose theres no other way of making 6000 into 16000.

[magpie1892]

Your right the cuts line is piffle, however this trouble has been sparked and as a progressive country we should take steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Whats wrong with that?

No one is saying moddy coddle the kids

No one is saying send them to disneyland

No one is saying the rioting is right

Try reading peoples posts!!

I have no idea what you're on about. I was replying to a specific post, and I didn't make mention of any the points you've listed

On another point, your description of this country as 'progressive' shows breathtaking denial!

[Future17]

The inquest opened this morning has stated he died from a single bullet wound - I doubt that Police are that poor a shot that they'd have missed him three times while he was being held down :wink:. BBC, Sky and others are also reporting this afternoon that the gun was not a replica as previously rumored, but was capable of firing live rounds.

I guess this just shows the kind of rumour and counter rumour that are doing the rounds, and no doubt fuelling the flames in the areas where these incidents are being played out. The quicker the real facts can come out the better.

Some cracking puns/metaphors in there Bmc!

[Dashing Bob S]

Who is "we" in this instance?? There seems to be a whiff of the "it's up to someone else to sort out my problems" ethos - that has so pervaded UK (and - probably - Western) society in the past 10/20 years (or even longer back, I don't know for sure) - in the above post.

Since the 1980's - when British institutions such as the police really were racist in their nature - there has been a massive effort by police forces to communicate with communities and set up the structures for such communication to take place. These may not be perfect, but people claiming that these poor "frustrated youth" find themselves up against the same level of economic and societal challenges as back in the early 80's are - IMO - engaging in a hysterical over-exaggeration.

We had Red Ken on the tellybox last night, citing all sorts of scary figures - 9% cuts in overall council budgets in Tottenham etc etc - and how these riots were some sort of manifestation of people's latent frustration and despair at these cuts.

Well, if they had genuine concerns and wanted to meaningfully and lawfully convey these frustrations, we have the right to peaceful protest in this country, which they should have - as many have done before - excercised this right. These hooligans on the street are destroying propoerty, endangering life and terrifying innocent members of the public in their own areas.

That's like me taking the hump, and going on a rampage down London Road - doesn't make any sense, and isn't the actions of someone who is genuinely reacting to the changing political/economical environment they find themselves in.

It's probably not very popular to say it, but every single one of those rioters are mindless thugs (ignoring the waffle in The Guardian article) who have no motivation and no end goal beyond personal gratification and - in the case of looters - personal material gain.

IMO :greengrin

Disagree with this completely. Arguably its far tougher for youths now in this position than it was for their counterparts in the eighties, who were the first generation since the war to face mass unemployment in their communities. At the time there was still a socialistic aspiration to equality, and left-leaning Labour party and an active and viable trade union movement and a reasonably free, comprehensive education system.

Now it's taken for granted that if you live in that locale you will part of a third generation unemployed army, living in an established drug-dominated black economy, in a individualistic society with no aspiration towards social equality, redistribution of wealth, and where achieving further/higher education saddles with debts for the rest of your life. All the time while vacuous greed, stupidity and moral selfishness are pushed as the aspirational norms through our media culture.

As for the 'community leaders' they seemed to a man and woman, the self-appointed Blairite quislings who built local grant-aided careers to smokescreen things while the Labour Party abandoned such place in search of Middle England votes. They were so detached from the youth of the areas they purport to represent, that they were genuinely shocked and surprised by the response.

Agree completely about the motivation of the looters and rioters. Why should they? These are only the same values that predominate in our society as a whole.

They can't afford to go shopping when its being pushed at them from all angles. They simply took the opportunity to do so. Of course they aren't radicals or revolutionaries or fighting for a cause. How many people are in our society?

[Betty Boop]

The IPCC have stated that there is no evidence that Mark Duggan fired at the police.

[Dashing Bob S]

The IPCC have stated that there is no evidence that Mark Duggan fired at the police.

Big u-turn for this pathetic and discredited body, who were announcing the reverse just two days ago. Too little, too late and smacks of a political decision from above to try and appease people to what seems like a police summary execution.

[Gatecrasher]

"its cos of the rich people":rolleyes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[RyeSloan]

Without in any way condoning or excusing violence or criminal behaviour, perhaps part of the context for these events is a society where legislators have recently gone to prison for stealing money by falsifying their expense claims - and many more (including a recent Home Secretary) SHOULD have gone to prison but somehow weaseled out of it?

Where the Metropolitan Police have acquired an unenviable reputation for corruption - two senior officers are currently suspended on charges of being in the pocket of some of the sleaziest and most irresponsible elements of the gutter press, for instance?

Where every now and again the same Police force shoots or otherwise kills someone who isn't actually engaged in any illegal activity whatsoever, and then uses the courts to effect a cover-up of the facts of the case?

Where the gutter press is more interested in vile gossip about people's personal lives than news, and where the people who buy the newspapers are happy to be titillated by that gossip, but hold up hypocritical hands in horror whenever a tabloid journo gets caught eavesdropping on someone's cellphone? But will still go on buying the stinking rags because that's the level we live at these days?

Where expenditure on vital inner-city services is being cut ruthlessly, while fat-cat financiers and their political cronies are looked after with huge bonus payments, salaries and pensions? A society with no rational policy regarding the control of the sale of alcohol; which is losing the "war" on drugs catastrophically? A society obsessed with material wealth but little or no sense of the value of human relationships? A society which has lost its moral compass long ago - maybe when Margaret Thatcher let the dogs of greed loose with the declaration that there IS no such thing as society?

My old Latin master was seriously off the planet at times, but he did teach me one Latin tag that seems appropriate here - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - who keeps an eye on the guardians of society when those guardians - legislators, community leaders, police - all have their snouts so deep in the trough that they can't see over the rim? And what possible moral authority can our present Parliament claim when we see its members behaving in the way they do? OR the Metropolitan Police for that matter?

Good post Doddie and no doubt there will be some truth in what you say...I'm not however convinced that the above is really the catalyst for riots.

There has always been corrupt police...is it any worse now than before, I doubt it and the IPCC does at least exist and seems to have some teeth. As for Police shootings...com'n how may do we have of those in Britiain...I think we take a semi-armed police force for granted and have no idea how lucky we are not to face down a barrel of a gun each time a policeman wants to talk to you.

Self serviant politicians....as above. At least now we have a means and a press that will expose them eventually, god knows what they we like before and compared to the graft seen in other countries and the pork the American Senators hand out it's hardly worth torching someones home for.

The press? Well the NOTW is hardly the standard that should be taken but I get your point.

Finally I really don't buy the 'society lost it's moral compass' line....in many ways society is less liberal than it was and I absolutely refuse to believe that there was no drink nor drug problems in the past, we simply spend more time trying to treat them and deal with them now...before they would simply be left in the slums with no support what so ever. Victorian Britain was a brutal place, lets not pretend we were once all living in some sort of nirvana with no crime, no drink problems and everyone was happy with their lot.

Basically I'm not buying it. The rioters in general probably have substantially higher living standards than most britians that have came before, one of the worlds most complete weflare states and free point of use healthcare...yet still they riot, for what? against what?

[Barney McGrew]

Big u-turn for this pathetic and discredited body, who were announcing the reverse just two days ago. Too little, too late and smacks of a political decision from above to try and appease people to what seems like a police summary execution.

There's still a load of facts to be confirmed from the whole thing so I think it's a bit of a stretch to be able to say it's a 'summary execution' at this point in time Bob.

While I do feel sorry for the family, what has come out so far is that a viable gun with a bullet in the magazine was found on the scene. If it is shown that it belonged to Duggan, then I struggle to feel sorry for someone who carries a loaded weapon, regardless of whether he fired first or not.

[GhostofBolivar]

Without in any way condoning or excusing violence or criminal behaviour, perhaps part of the context for these events is a society where legislators have recently gone to prison for stealing money by falsifying their expense claims - and many more (including a recent Home Secretary) SHOULD have gone to prison but somehow weaseled out of it?

Where the Metropolitan Police have acquired an unenviable reputation for corruption - two senior officers are currently suspended on charges of being in the pocket of some of the sleaziest and most irresponsible elements of the gutter press, for instance?

Where every now and again the same Police force shoots or otherwise kills someone who isn't actually engaged in any illegal activity whatsoever, and then uses the courts to effect a cover-up of the facts of the case?

Where the gutter press is more interested in vile gossip about people's personal lives than news, and where the people who buy the newspapers are happy to be titillated by that gossip, but hold up hypocritical hands in horror whenever a tabloid journo gets caught eavesdropping on someone's cellphone? But will still go on buying the stinking rags because that's the level we live at these days?

Where expenditure on vital inner-city services is being cut ruthlessly, while fat-cat financiers and their political cronies are looked after with huge bonus payments, salaries and pensions? A society with no rational policy regarding the control of the sale of alcohol; which is losing the "war" on drugs catastrophically? A society obsessed with material wealth but little or no sense of the value of human relationships? A society which has lost its moral compass long ago - maybe when Margaret Thatcher let the dogs of greed loose with the declaration that there IS no such thing as society?

My old Latin master was seriously off the planet at times, but he did teach me one Latin tag that seems appropriate here - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - who keeps an eye on the guardians of society when those guardians - legislators, community leaders, police - all have their snouts so deep in the trough that they can't see over the rim? And what possible moral authority can our present Parliament claim when we see its members behaving in the way they do? OR the Metropolitan Police for that matter?

Totally right.

This would never have happened if Rorschach and The Comedian were about.

More seriously, I can't help but feel that this is what happens when you take someone's hope of a better future away.

Why should these people care about society when society doesn't care about them?

[RyeSloan]

Totally right.

This would never have happened if Rorschach and The Comedian were about.

More seriously, I can't help but feel that this is what happens when you take someone's hope of a better future away.

Why should these people care about society when society doesn't care about them?

Oh please, who's taken who's 'hope of a better future away'......maybe they could work towards making society stronger and better....Noooo lets just loot and burn instead then blame it on being unloved.

[GhostofBolivar]

It's probably not very popular to say it, but every single one of those rioters are mindless thugs (ignoring the waffle in The Guardian article) who have no motivation and no end goal beyond personal gratification and - in the case of looters - personal material gain.


Why shouldn't they. That's what the modern world has taught people. That's how you value your life, how you judge your place in the world. Through the acquisition of stuff. If you have the biggest TV; if you have a better phone; If you wear more fashionable clothes. Consumerism has taught us that this makes you a better, more important person.

And however the symptoms have manifested, it's still a reflection of economic and societal failure to help these people.

It's far, far too easy to fall through the cracks and far, far too few people care.

[magpie1892]

The IPCC have stated that there is no evidence that Mark Duggan fired at the police.

Police are allowed to shoot 'if there is a threat to life' so whether or not Duggan fired at the police is irrelevant, as it was also irrelevant with that lawyer guy the police shot last year.

[magpie1892]

"its cos of the rich people":rolleyes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

That has to be Chris Morris and friends putting together a new series of The Day Today.

[Beefster]

"its cos of the rich people":rolleyes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Damn right. There's a guy lives up the road from me in a six bedroom house and he has three cars, including a Audi TT. I'm going to do the local shop's windows tonight and nick some cheese and Rustler's Hot Dogs. That'll teach him, even although he has no connection to the shop.

[Betty Boop]

Police are allowed to shoot 'if there is a threat to life' so whether or not Duggan fired at the police is irrelevant, as it was also irrelevant with that lawyer guy the police shot last year.

Ok Mr Angry ! :greengrin

[GhostofBolivar]

Oh please, who's taken who's 'hope of a better future away'......maybe they could work towards making society stronger and better....Noooo lets just loot and burn instead then blame it on being unloved.

Do you really think it's that easy?

You can't get a job if you have a criminal record, however much you want to. Selling drugs will make you more money, for less work than flipping burgers. Where do you find a reference point for making society better if you're the child of a single, drug-addicted parent?

Someone, somewhere has to reach out to you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

[Barney McGrew]

Selling drugs will make you more money, for less work than flipping burgers

Selling drugs would probably make me more than the job I have too. Doesn't mean I go out and do it though.

Reports now of disorder in central Manchester.

[magpie1892]

You can't get a job if you have a criminal record

Rubbish, pure and simple.

Was talking to one of the lifeguards at my gym this avo who has a criminal record for theft (shoplifting) and his employers knew this when they hired him.

Also, after a number of years (dependant on the severity of the offence) convictions are spent also. Only the police/courts can see them thereafter.

[Hibrandenburg]

Good post Doddie and no doubt there will be some truth in what you say...I'm not however convinced that the above is really the catalyst for riots.

There has always been corrupt police...is it any worse now than before, I doubt it and the IPCC does at least exist and seems to have some teeth. As for Police shootings...com'n how may do we have of those in Britiain...I think we take a semi-armed police force for granted and have no idea how lucky we are not to face down a barrel of a gun each time a policeman wants to talk to you.

Self serviant politicians....as above. At least now we have a means and a press that will expose them eventually, god knows what they we like before and compared to the graft seen in other countries and the pork the American Senators hand out it's hardly worth torching someones home for.

The press? Well the NOTW is hardly the standard that should be taken but I get your point.

Finally I really don't buy the 'society lost it's moral compass' line....in many ways society is less liberal than it was and I absolutely refuse to believe that there was no drink nor drug problems in the past, we simply spend more time trying to treat them and deal with them now...before they would simply be left in the slums with no support what so ever. Victorian Britain was a brutal place, lets not pretend we were once all living in some sort of nirvana with no crime, no drink problems and everyone was happy with their lot.

Basically I'm not buying it. The rioters in general probably have substantially higher living standards than most britians that have came before, one of the worlds most complete weflare states and free point of use healthcare...yet still they riot, for what? against what?

Good post. And let's be honest Londoners have been revolting for centuries.

[lyonhibs]

You're confusing 'motive' and 'context'. Noone is saying rioting is a good or justifiable response.Let me put it this way. Police numbers are being cut across london. Policemen are on duty policing a spurs game 2 nights ago while residents say nothing is being done to protect them. 8 of 13 youth clubs in the borough involved were closed last week (and reported last week in theguardian, as it happens).Do the cuts to police numbers and youth provision not provide a CONTEXT to what has happened? If you think not, it follows you think police numbers are irrelevant to public safety.

I think there is a context for it - i.e. recent events/facts about cuts etc etc - but the key issue is, what level of interaction do these looters have with this context?

How many of them, as they go crashing through the windows of another business are thinking "well, you know, if only they hadn't shut my local youth community centre, I wouldn't be theiving this 32" telly then about to set fire to that bus"? How many of the people rioting in London and beyond are those who really engaged with the community centres (which have all seemingly just been shut) or took advantage of the council services which have seen the cuts?

I'd say the type of person that trashes private property and terrorises the daily lives of the innocent bystanders is not the type of person who was community-minded enough to be an active member of the local community (and therefore actuall the most affected by the cuts, and with the most reason to feel aggrieved about how tough it is to find a job etc etc) in the first place.

Like I say, your environment/context changes, these changes affect your daily life, you think those changes are unfair what do you do?? If you really had the "improvement of your local community" at heart, you'd write to your MP, raise petitions, organise a local action group or something similar. What you would not do is go tearing about the place destroying property/buildings and endangering people's lives and livliehoods.

Context = low jobs, cuts to services etc. Response of someone who is engaged with, and affect by changes to, this context = as above.
Context = low jobs, cuts to services etc. Response of someone who is a opportunistic criminal who doesn't give a flying **** about improving the context or the environment they find themselves in (quite the opposite in fact) = what we're seeing on the streets of London elsewhere.

Despite what all these great doyens of "social thought" that seem to be getting rolled out on the BBC tell us, the socio-economic context of these riots forms the basis of the rioters motivations about as much as the "context" that Mitterand had a mistress does - i.e. not at all.

[Betty Boop]

Rubbish, pure and simple.

Was talking to one of the lifeguards at my gym this avo who has a criminal record for theft (shoplifting) and his employers knew this when they hired him.

Also, after a number of years (dependant on the severity of the offence) convictions are spent also. Only the police/courts can see them thereafter.

Not all employers are so sympathetic, to those with convictions. Try getting a job if you have a conviction for drug offences, and nine times out of ten you will find the door slammed shut. For the purposes of enhanced disclosure convictions are never spent.

[magpie1892]

Not all employers are so sympathetic, to those with convictions. Try getting a job if you have a conviction for drug offences, and nine times out of ten you will find the door slammed shut. For the purposes of enhanced disclosure convictions are never spent.

I never suggested they were (all so sympathetic). I said that it was 'rubbish' that a criminal conviction prevents employment, and it is rubbish, unadulterated rubbish.

Jobs which require enhanced disclosure - yes, I am aware of the issues. This precludes what, two percent of vocations? These rioters fancy becoming teachers do they? An untouched Waterstones gives the lie to that one.

[scotia44]

Bits in bold - trite nonsense again, alongside your third post of spittle-filled fury.

The cause of the riots is not cowardly gangs. That is the outcome of circumstances that have led to the riots taking place. How would you recommend the "country stands up"?

Maybe have the police hang a few in summary justice? Possibly go in and teach them a lesson they wont forget down an alleyway, out of the sight of CCTV? Or maybe just heard them all into one big camp and euthanise the lot of them?

I would have wanted the response to hav ebeen stronger and firmer. I want every last one of the looters and rioters who can be caught arrested and jailed for as long as possible. I would like to see some type of restorative justice where, in addition to jail, the costs of the crime are visited on the criminal.

What your kind of frothing, pulsating anger lacks is the ability to see beyond the immediate problem. Crack down on policing, curtail those oh-so terrible civil liberties, maybe have a curfew where the undesirables live does nothing other than increase the sense of persecution whether or not it is justified. Part of the price we have to pay in living in a country like the UK is that in order ot beneefot from all the good things, we have to continually fight against the bad crap can emerge from living in a relatively free society as well.

Still looking for a reason so we can learn from this ?

Even the police are saying it is not rioting it criminality hiding behind a so called protest

These bums are running amok all over britain because we need to get them on our side by understanding why they do it



Heres my reasons

Greedy bstards
lazy good for nowt bstards
opportunist bstards

And I dont need to be a social worker to figure that out

Now if you excuse me I need to wipe my screen from spittle:bye:

[Betty Boop]

I never suggested they were (all so sympathetic). I said that it was 'rubbish' that a criminal conviction prevents employment, and it is rubbish, unadulterated rubbish.

Jobs which require enhanced disclosure - yes, I am aware of the issues. This precludes what, two percent of vocations? These rioters fancy becoming teachers do they? An untouched Waterstones gives the lie to that one.

You really come across as a bit of a Richard at times. You can be asked to undergo disclosure for a cleaning job, and depending on what kind of building you are applying to work in (schools community centres etc.), enhanced disclosure. The same applies to janitors and caretakers .

[hibsbollah]

I think there is a context for it - i.e. recent events/facts about cuts etc etc - but the key issue is, what level of interaction do these looters have with this context? How many of them, as they go crashing through the windows of another business are thinking "well, you know, if only they hadn't shut my local youth community centre, I wouldn't be theiving this 32" telly then about to set fire to that bus"? How many of the people rioting in London and beyond are those who really engaged with the community centres (which have all seemingly just been shut) or took advantage of the council services which have seen the cuts? I'd say the type of person that trashes private property and terrorises the daily lives of the innocent bystanders is not the type of person who was community-minded enough to be an active member of the local community (and therefore actuall the most affected by the cuts, and with the most reason to feel aggrieved about how tough it is to find a job etc etc) in the first place. Like I say, your environment/context changes, these changes affect your daily life, you think those changes are unfair what do you do?? If you really had the "improvement of your local community" at heart, you'd write to your MP, raise petitions, organise a local action group or something similar. What you would not do is go tearing about the place destroying property/buildings and endangering people's lives and livliehoods. Context = low jobs, cuts to services etc. Response of someone who is engaged with, and affect by changes to, this context = as above.Context = low jobs, cuts to services etc. Response of someone who is a opportunistic criminal who doesn't give a flying **** about improving the context or the environment they find themselves in (quite the opposite in fact) = what we're seeing on the streets of London elsewhere.Despite what all these great doyens of "social thought" that seem to be getting rolled out on the BBC tell us, the socio-economic context of these riots forms the basis of the rioters motivations about as much as the "context" that Mitterand had a mistress does - i.e. not at all.It really doesnt matter what 'interaction' a rioter has with the world of cuts to their community, the community will become a worse place to live as a result. Its been decades since weve known that we are all products of our environment.Playing the ludicrous straw man card about a rioter saying 'woe is me! I am a product of a broken society, must steal me another cardhartt' is amusing in a satirical sort of way but a bit stupid, really. Noone is suggesting they are indulged in anything else but wanton destruction and selfish gratification. But what made them do it? I think ghost of bolivar and doddie are closest to the mark. They dont feel part of the world they live in.

[SOL1875]

The IPCC have stated that there is no evidence that Mark Duggan fired at the police.

I'm sure I heard in a report (maybe I read it) that the bullet in the police radio was found to be one from a police gun. Did anyone else hear/read that?

I'll see if I can find it again and post the link when I get back on later

[magpie1892]

You really come across as a bit of a Richard at times. You can be asked to undergo disclosure for a cleaning job, and depending on what kind of building you are applying to work in (schools community centres etc.), enhanced disclosure. The same applies to janitors and caretakers .

Sure, wriggle about if you like. I said it was rubbish that a criminal record stops you getting a job and rubbish it remains. Keep flogging a dead horse if it makes you happy but I made an unqualified statement that was true and you tried to qualify it on my behalf for whatever reason.

Happy to be a Richard in this case, I can handle the opprobrium.

[Twa Cairpets]

Still looking for a reason so we can learn from this ?

Yes, even more so.


Even the police are saying it is not rioting it criminality hiding behind a so called protest

I've not suggested it is anything to the contrary. The act of looting is utterly criminal and unrelated to any protest. The initial spark may well have had some justification behind it (wapre fthough it may be). Rioting and destruction of property is just base criminal behaviour, no dispute there from me. What concerns me is why these lowlife are (a) able to do what they are doing, and (b) why they think it is ok to do what they are doing, and (c) how we can prevent them doing it again. Getting angry without any thought, as per your apparent position of Alan McLaren-esque tomato-pussed apoplexy is a barrier to getting things sorted in both the short and long term.


These bums are running amok all over britain because we need to get them on our side by understanding why they do it

Heres my reasons

Greedy bstards
lazy good for nowt bstards
opportunist bstards

And I dont need to be a social worker to figure that out

Now if you excuse me I need to wipe my screen from spittle:bye:

Again with the anger and total lack of anything that might go some way to addresing why they are Greedy lzy good for nothing bstards. Think of something that might address the problem - maybe a call for National Service or chemical castration, but dont just sit their and be angry. It is isnt a good way to be.

[lyonhibs]

It really doesnt matter what 'interaction' a rioter has with the world of cuts to their community, the community will become a worse place to live as a result. Its been decades since weve known that we are all products of our environment.Playing the ludicrous straw man card about a rioter saying 'woe is me! I am a product of a broken society, must steal me another cardhartt' is amusing in a satirical sort of way but a bit stupid, really. Noone is suggesting they are indulged in anything else but wanton destruction and selfish gratification. But what made them do it? I think ghost of bolivar and doddie are closest to the mark. They dont feel part of the world they live in.

My point was that to feel (or not) part of the world you live in, don't you have to actively engage with that world, to be affected when a service is cut, don't you have to have partaken of that service in the first place?

I'll be honest, if my local community centre was cut, it wouldn't make two hoots of difference to me, as I don't use that service. If I did use that service, I'd want to make my voice heard through legal means, as outlined in my post.

Re: your 1st sentence a) I would contend that it matters very much, if we are assuming there is some sort of bi-directional relationship between the rioter and the context of the riots (that was the supposition being made originally, yes??) and b) whilst cuts may indeed negatively impact on communities, doesn't trashing property, making people fearful in their own homes and forcing local businesses to close early and lose income do likewise, only in a much more instant and damaging manner?

I think people are giving way too much credence to the emotions, awareness and analytical capacities of the rioters. IMO: Why are they doing it - wanton destruction and selfish gratification. What is making them do it, and continue to do it - opportunism, and the knowledge that a couple of choice soundbites will send a lot of people into a navel-gazing tailspin about "how did it come to this" "collapse of modern society" and the such.

[AgentDaleCooper]

i hear they've started looting in tooting :wink:

[AgentDaleCooper]

...and twitter reported some stealing in ealing :greengrin

[hibeedonald]

Still looking for a reason so we can learn from this ?

Even the police are saying it is not rioting it criminality hiding behind a so called protest

These bums are running amok all over britain because we need to get them on our side by understanding why they do it



Heres my reasons

Greedy bstards
lazy good for nowt bstards
opportunist bstards

And I dont need to be a social worker to figure that out

Now if you excuse me I need to wipe my screen from spittle:bye:

:top marks:top marks

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think there is a context for it - i.e. recent events/facts about cuts etc etc - but the key issue is, what level of interaction do these looters have with this context?

How many of them, as they go crashing through the windows of another business are thinking "well, you know, if only they hadn't shut my local youth community centre, I wouldn't be theiving this 32" telly then about to set fire to that bus"? How many of the people rioting in London and beyond are those who really engaged with the community centres (which have all seemingly just been shut) or took advantage of the council services which have seen the cuts?

I'd say the type of person that trashes private property and terrorises the daily lives of the innocent bystanders is not the type of person who was community-minded enough to be an active member of the local community (and therefore actuall the most affected by the cuts, and with the most reason to feel aggrieved about how tough it is to find a job etc etc) in the first place.

Like I say, your environment/context changes, these changes affect your daily life, you think those changes are unfair what do you do?? If you really had the "improvement of your local community" at heart, you'd write to your MP, raise petitions, organise a local action group or something similar. What you would not do is go tearing about the place destroying property/buildings and endangering people's lives and livliehoods.

Context = low jobs, cuts to services etc. Response of someone who is engaged with, and affect by changes to, this context = as above.
Context = low jobs, cuts to services etc. Response of someone who is a opportunistic criminal who doesn't give a flying **** about improving the context or the environment they find themselves in (quite the opposite in fact) = what we're seeing on the streets of London elsewhere.

Despite what all these great doyens of "social thought" that seem to be getting rolled out on the BBC tell us, the socio-economic context of these riots forms the basis of the rioters motivations about as much as the "context" that Mitterand had a mistress does - i.e. not at all.


I get a bit torn on these sort of issues. i have studied sociology and i understand the arguments around context etc

I agree with Doddie above about his wider reasons, however i would suggest that many of the kind of people perpetrating this cut themselves off from society.

I also think there is a giant elephant in the room that nobody has (been allowed to?) talk about, and that is the black culture that is particuarly apparent in London - and at the risk of being branded racist, i think the whole hip-hop, mysoginist, drug-dealing get-rich-or-die-trying black/London culture is a large part of what keeps the black community as the most underperforming community in the UK.

I also think that black people (huge generalisation i know) still carry a massive chip on their shoulder and have a terrible, 'its all somebody else's fault' attitude - of course this isnt all about black people, but thats where it started.

One last point before i retreat behind my very large tin-hat, if the police are not supposed to or allowed to brand entire communities because of the actions of the few, why dont the black community extend that same courtesy to the police? For all the bad experiences that young black folk have had with the Met, i know for a fact that the police have at least as many bad experiences of young black criminals in and around Tottenham (not to mention the policeman who was stabbed to death in the lat riots)

[Betty Boop]

Hundreds of Sikhs standing guard outside their temple in Southall.

[greenlex]

Simple solution. Arm the police and tell everyone that are doing this from tomorrow will be shot dead. END OFF.

[Removed]

Simple solution. Arm the police and tell everyone that are doing this from tomorrow will be shot dead. END OFF. If only. I'd vote for you A :greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

Simple solution. Arm the police and tell everyone that are doing this from tomorrow will be shot dead. END OFF.

Yes because that is a such a proportionate, considered response.

[lyonhibs]

Simple solution. Arm the police and tell everyone that are doing this from tomorrow will be shot dead. END OFF.

Emmm, I can't tell whether this is a joke or serious?

Criminals should be treated as such under UK law as it stands, not by "vigilante" law. That said, I'd have no problems with slightly more aggressive policing tactics that go beyond just containment. Anyone taking a liberty with private property and causing distress like these rioters are should do so in the knowledge that they may very soon be receiving a sharp beating about the mid-riff from a police baton.

For me, standing in a line behind shields when - as is now the case - you outnumber these hooligans, isn't enough. They should - within the bounds of the law - be teaching these thieving scrotes a lesson.

[Gatecrasher]

Anyone just see the wee plumb on Sky news? :faf:

"jus out gettin pissed and doin what i want innit"

[lyonhibs]

Here are the sort of dislocated, tortured "yoof" of today that we're dealing with. They sound raging at the world they're living in :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[Gatecrasher]

Hundreds of Sikhs standing guard outside their temple in Southall.

Just saw them on Sky, fair play to them it looks like London could do with more people like that :agree:

[greenlex]

Yes because that is a such a proportionate, considered response.
I've considered it over two days now. It may be a bit out of proportion but I bet the riots and looting wouldn't happen tomorrow night.

[Removed]

Just saw them on Sky, fair play to them it looks like London could do with more people like that :agree: Not seen them on tv but if they are anything like the guards at the golden temple in Amritsar I wouldn't mess with them.

[Hibs Class]

I'm sure I heard in a report (maybe I read it) that the bullet in the police radio was found to be one from a police gun. Did anyone else hear/read that?I'll see if I can find it again and post the link when I get back on later I heard that report as well. I also heard a news report earlier which suggested that two bullets were fired by the police, one of which struck him in the chest and the other one which struck him in the arm, so not sure where the radio one may have come from.

[Gatecrasher]

Not seen them on tv but if they are anything like the guards at the golden temple in Amritsar I wouldn't mess with them.

I haven't seen them but They were no scrawny we chavs that's for sure :greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

Simple solution. Arm the police and tell everyone that are doing this from tomorrow will be shot dead. END OFF.


I agree with the senior Police officer who said baton rounds (rubber bullets) and water cannon are not the answer, he's right...........live ammunition and flame throwers would be far more effective against these ****.

[greenlex]

Emmm, I can't tell whether this is a joke or serious?

Criminals should be treated as such under UK law as it stands, not by "vigilante" law. That said, I'd have no problems with slightly more aggressive policing tactics that go beyond just containment. Anyone taking a liberty with private property and causing distress like these rioters are should do so in the knowledge that they may very soon be receiving a sharp beating about the mid-riff from a police baton.

For me, standing in a line behind shields when - as is now the case - you outnumber these hooligans, isn't enough. They should - within the bounds of the law - be teaching these thieving scrotes a lesson.
I reckon being dead is the ultimate lesson. Only the insane or stupid would do it if they were gonna be shot dead. No more riots.

[Removed]

My sister texted to say police have closed the bridges. Anyone know what's going on?

[Mikey]

My sister texted to say police have closed the bridges. Anyone know what's going on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14461230

[Mikey]

Sounds familiar........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14466369

[greenlex]

I agree with the senior Police officer who said baton rounds (rubber bullets) and water cannon are not the answer, he's right...........live ammunition and flame throwers would be far more effective against these ****.
Flame throwers are way OTT but they should shoot to kill. :agree:

[hibeedonald]

The Millwall firm and others are apparently fighting the rioters

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150351546277774&set=o.232424910134000&type=1&theater


(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150351546277774&set=o.232424910134000&type=1&theater)

[Betty Boop]

I heard that report as well. I also heard a news report earlier which suggested that two bullets were fired by the police, one of which struck him in the chest and the other one which struck him in the arm, so not sure where the radio one may have come from.

Its here in the Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns

[Dashing Bob S]

The Millwall firm and others are apparently fighting the rioters

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150351546277774&set=o.232424910134000&type=1&theater


(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150351546277774&set=o.232424910134000&type=1&theater)

Brilliant. So the football yobs are bloody heroes after all! Do we knight them as we shoot the rioters?

[LancashireHibby]

Kicking off big time in Manchester at the minute. Girl on the radio mentioned how long it took to rebuild the city after the bomb in '96 and I had to chuckle when her co-DJ piped in with "and Rangers".

Scary when it's on your doorstep though. One mate of mine was sent home from work at 7pm just as they were basically shutting down the transport system but another is a window fitter and is now on a call out in the city centre to start boarding up some of the windows which will obviously mean he might end up being a target for the looters if they're trying to get back inside.

Absolutely appalled, ashamed and embarrassed. We all made jokes the other night as to how the riots wouldn't reach Manchester as there's far more class up here, Mancs are "shepherds, not sheep" but it turns out we have just as much **** as everywhere else.

[Removed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14461230 That was this afternoon. I'm talking last half hour. She says fannys causing trouble.

[Twa Cairpets]

I've considered it over two days now. It may be a bit out of proportion but I bet the riots and looting wouldn't happen tomorrow night.

Still not sure if you're fishing for a reaction, but I would be that you would have 4 or 5 times the number of rioters out on the street, this time with an actual genuine grievance against the police to back up the opportunistic thieving wee scrotes.

[greenlex]

The Millwall firm and others are apparently fighting the rioters

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150351546277774&set=o.232424910134000&type=1&theater


(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150351546277774&set=o.232424910134000&type=1&theater)
Good stuff. We can shoot they ****ers too. :agree:

[Hibs Class]

Its here in the Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns I'd seen that, but it suggests more than two police bullets were fired.

[CropleyWasGod]

The baddest of bad taste, I know, but... I have one son in Manchester, and another in London.

My Christmas is sorted :greengrin

[greenlex]

Still not sure if you're fishing for a reaction, but I would be that you would have 4 or 5 times the number of rioters out on the street, this time with an actual genuine grievance against the police to back up the opportunistic thieving wee scrotes.
No chance. They are all soft bellied chancers. They wont like to be dead. There is nothing wrong with protesting but rioters/looters should be shot.

[magpie1892]

Still not sure if you're fishing for a reaction, but I would be that you would have 4 or 5 times the number of rioters out on the street, this time with an actual genuine grievance against the police to back up the opportunistic thieving wee scrotes.

I sincerely doubt it. You'd have tumbleweed.

There's precious little in the way of public sympathy for the looters, if any at all. If some got shot dead (which, I agree with you, would be a disproportionate response), I think that would bring matters to a very swift conclusion.

Who'd all come out? That drippy bird in yesterday's Guardian?

[Gatecrasher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeX8y0JQNqI&feature=player_embedded

[Sir David Gray]

1. Yes there are. Now a significant and growing proportion are committing arson, fighting police, stealing from shops and causing destruction. What are we going to do about it?

2. Not about justifying it. I don't think anybody is (or can.)

3. Yes. Repeat, so what are we doing about it?

What we are going to do is hopefully get tough with these people, hunt them down through any means necessary, get them tried in court, convicted and sent to prison for a significant period of time.

If it is people who are unemployed causing all the trouble, do these people seriously expect them to become more employable by behaving like this? There's no danger that I would employ the kind of people who have been involved in the incidents over the past couple of days.

[Twa Cairpets]

I sincerely doubt it. You'd have tumbleweed.

There's precious little in the way of public sympathy for the looters, if any at all. If some got shot dead (which, I agree with you, would be a disproportionate response), I think that would bring matters to a very swift conclusion.

Who'd all come out? That drippy bird in yesterday's Guardian?

Are you and Greenlex really, really suggesting that we kill people summarily for this? Honestly?

[Dashing Bob S]

Good stuff. We can shoot they ****ers too. :agree:

Or arm them. Get them to take out the rioters. Then the police.


But could they please start with Kelvin McKenzie? He must be the ugliest and most odious little hunchbacked toad to be shat into creation.

[Hibrandenburg]

I can't help but get the feeling that there is an organisation behind all this. But who or what?

[greenlex]

Are you and Greenlex really, really suggesting that we kill people summarily for this? Honestly?
TC I dont think it would come to that. The theat would be enough. If the first night we needed to take out a few ringleaders then so be it. But it would stop.

[magpie1892]

What we are going to do is hopefully get tough with these people, hunt them down through any means necessary, get them tried in court, convicted and sent to prison for a significant period of time.

If it is people who are unemployed causing all the trouble, do these people seriously expect them to become more employable by behaving like this? There's no danger that I would employ the kind of people who have been involved in the incidents over the past couple of days.

You fall down on both points. 1) the chances of 'significant' prison sentences are slim to none. Prisons are chock full in England and as recently evidenced by Jim Devine, you can now do a quarter of your actual sentence before release. 2) You're assuming these people want jobs?

[heidtheba]

What's everyone's feeling on whether this will kick off up here? Do people think it will?
Chri*t I hope not. Did find this tweet a bit of light relief though...

jockchick (http://twitter.com/jockchick): If the ****bags tried rioting in Edinburgh right now, people would think it was an avant garde new festival show. #edfringe #riotcleanup2011-08-09 14:35:31 · Reply (http://twitter.com/home?status=@jockchick) · View (http://twitter.com/jockchick/statuses/100938261626753026)

[Dashing Bob S]

TC I dont think it would come to that. The theat would be enough. If the first night we needed to take out a few ringleaders then so be it. But it would stop.

Bloody Sunday?

[Hibrandenburg]

Bloody Sunday?
Was thinking exactly the same.

[greenlex]

Bloody Sunday?
Wouldnt wait till Sunday Bob. Get the message out tomorrow that it starts tomorrow night. There would need to be rules of engagement though. I dont know who would make them up though but what about this for a start.

Tell the looter you are an armed Policeman and to put the 42 inch Telly down or I will shoot you . If they dont then shoot them in the head. They will soon get the message.

[CropleyWasGod]

What's everyone's feeling on whether this will kick off up here? Do people think it will?
Chri*t I hope not. Did find this tweet a bit of light relief though...

jockchick (http://twitter.com/jockchick): If the ****bags tried rioting in Edinburgh right now, people would think it was an avant garde new festival show. #edfringe #riotcleanup2011-08-09 14:35:31 · Reply (http://twitter.com/home?status=@jockchick) · View (http://twitter.com/jockchick/statuses/100938261626753026)

My gut feeling is that it won't, because it's perceived as an "English" thing... similar to the 80's and 90's, when English football fans ran amok, and suddenly Scottish fans were well-behaved, partly to show off that we weren't English.

Against that, of course, is the notion that those kinds of divisions are ever more blurred... and that neds are neds, and the excuse to chuck stones at the polis is just too tempting. (like in the MPH riots in Edinburgh, when locals joined in... just because they could.)

[magpie1892]

Are you and Greenlex really, really suggesting that we kill people summarily for this? Honestly?

Did you actually read my post? If so, did you notice:


(which, I agree with you, would be a disproportionate response)

?

You'll have to ask Greenlex what he 'really, really' thinks but, please, read before reacting.

[CropleyWasGod]

Wouldnt wait till Sunday Bob. Get the message out tomorrow that it starts tomorrow night. There would need to be rules of engagement though. I dont know who would make them up though but what about this for a start.

Tell the looter you are an armed Policeman and to put the 42 inch Telly down or I will shoot you . If they dont then shoot them in the head. They will soon get the message.

So.... my son, who looks and dresses like any 19 year old, has just spent the day shopping in the Trafford Centre in Manchester. He was nervous walking back to his hotel, not out of fear of the rioters.... but because he was loaded with clothes and stuff that he had bought, but which could have been mistaken for looted stuff.

In your scenario, shouldn't the police be asking to see receipts before they put a bullet in his head?

[greenlex]

So.... my son, who looks and dresses like any 19 year old, has just spent the day shopping in the Trafford Centre in Manchester. He was nervous walking back to his hotel, not out of fear of the rioters.... but because he was loaded with clothes and stuff that he had bought, but which could have been mistaken for looted stuff.

In your scenario, shouldn't the police be asking to see receipts before they put a bullet in his head?

If you knew you might be shot would you go out shopping? Hell I wouldn't leave the house for a few days if there was a chance of being shot dead. A few days of that and we would get back to normality.

[CropleyWasGod]

If you knew you might be shot would you go out shopping? Hell I wouldn't leave the house for a few days if there was a chance of being shot dead. A few days of that and we would get back to normality.

You're missing the point.

You suggested the police should be armed. My son was out shopping today and, along with hundreds of others, was oblivious to what was happening elsewhere in the city. It was only when he got back to the centre of the city that the implications for him became clear. Had the police been armed....etc etc.

He has kept his receipts.:greengrin

[greenlex]

You're missing the point.

You suggested the police should be armed. My son was out shopping today and, along with hundreds of others, was oblivious to what was happening elsewhere in the city. It was only when he got back to the centre of the city that the implications for him became clear. Had the police been armed....etc etc.

He has kept his receipts.:greengrin

Was he out looting?
If he wasnt he should be ok.
Was he throwing petrol bombs or stones at the police.?
If he wasnt he should be ok.
Best keep the receipts though. :agree:

[Sir David Gray]

Do you really think it's that easy?

You can't get a job if you have a criminal record, however much you want to. Selling drugs will make you more money, for less work than flipping burgers. Where do you find a reference point for making society better if you're the child of a single, drug-addicted parent?

Someone, somewhere has to reach out to you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html


Not all employers are so sympathetic, to those with convictions. Try getting a job if you have a conviction for drug offences, and nine times out of ten you will find the door slammed shut. For the purposes of enhanced disclosure convictions are never spent.

Why shouldn't it work that way? I'm not saying that people who have a criminal record should have absolutely no chance of ever getting another job. People who have demonstrated the ability and the desire to turn their lives around should be given the opportunity to show what they can offer.

However, if two people go for the same job, one has a criminal record and the other person does not, the person with the clean record should have the advantage in terms of getting the job. It's maybe unfortunate that a person is still paying for a stupid thing that they did 20 years ago but at the end of the day, if you break the law then you have to live with the consequences. As Magpie has already pointed out, a lot of minor criminal convictions are wiped from your record after a certain period of time and won't show up on a police check that is done by an employer. And if you've committed a major criminal offence then you deserve all you get.

I have absolutely no problem with that situation whatsoever.


There's still a load of facts to be confirmed from the whole thing so I think it's a bit of a stretch to be able to say it's a 'summary execution' at this point in time Bob.

While I do feel sorry for the family, what has come out so far is that a viable gun with a bullet in the magazine was found on the scene. If it is shown that it belonged to Duggan, then I struggle to feel sorry for someone who carries a loaded weapon, regardless of whether he fired first or not.

:agree: This is a guy who was, by all accounts, a well known and key member of a crack cocaine dealing gang in London and he apparently was armed with a viable weapon at the time of his death as well.

I cannot feel any sympathy for him at all, to be perfectly honest.

[CropleyWasGod]

Was he out looting?
If he wasnt he should be ok.
Was he throwing petrol bombs or stones at the police.?
If he wasnt he should be ok.
Best keep the receipts though. :agree:

It's the vigilante thing that probably worries me most, TBH. A young guy in Manchester with a Scottish accent, laden with "shopping".....

[lyonhibs]

Why shouldn't they. That's what the modern world has taught people. That's how you value your life, how you judge your place in the world. Through the acquisition of stuff. If you have the biggest TV; if you have a better phone; If you wear more fashionable clothes. Consumerism has taught us that this makes you a better, more important person.

And however the symptoms have manifested, it's still a reflection of economic and societal failure to help these people.

It's far, far too easy to fall through the cracks and far, far too few people care.

Whilst I'd venture that anyone over the age of 16 with 2 brain cells to rub together is savvy enough to know that there is a lot more to life than collecting "stuff", if we assume we operate in this fatalistic, moral vacum where having an iPad 2 supercedes "being a decent human being" in people's list of priorities, then what consumerism has also taught us is that the latest "stuff" costs money, lots of it, and you have to pay for it.

The modern world/consumerism/capitalism/call it what you like has not taught us that robbery and destruction of property is ok. Or at least not in the world I live in, though there seems to be - not just in your post - a lot of shrugging-of-shoulders, "gee shucks this was bound to happen at some point, so hey-ho" resignation/de-sensitisation to these criminal acts.

Am I the only one that finds that attitude just a tad perturbing?? :confused:

[magpie1892]

Am I the only one that finds that attitude just a tad perturbing?? :confused:

No.

[Sir David Gray]

You fall down on both points. 1) the chances of 'significant' prison sentences are slim to none. Prisons are chock full in England and as recently evidenced by Jim Devine, you can now do a quarter of your actual sentence before release. 2) You're assuming these people want jobs?

Oh I'm aware of that. It was more out of hope, rather than expectation. It was more in response to Dashing Bob S's post which was asking what we were going to do about all this disorder and violence and how we were going to solve it all.

And the way I would deal with it would be to arrest, try, convict and imprison as many people, who have been involved in the violence across England over the past few days, as possible. And they wouldn't be serving a half or a quarter of their sentences either.

I know it sounds simple, probably too simple, but it's the way I feel after witnessing these terrible scenes over the past few days. It's been absolutely disgraceful. I don't care if these people are poor, I don't care if these people are unemployed, I don't care if these people feel marginalised. There is no excuse for this shocking behaviour and the only way to deal with it is to make them face the full force of the law.

As for your 2nd point, you're correct to say that. I don't think most of these people want jobs either. But a lot of them will make the point about being unemployed and having no job prospects and for that being the reason behind their actions. I fail to see how taking this course of action will help them gain employment.

[SteveHFC]

This better not come up to Scotland.

[magpie1892]

Oh I'm aware of that. It was more out of hope, rather than expectation. It was more in response to Dashing Bob S's post which was asking what we were going to do about all this disorder and violence and how we were going to solve it all.

And the way I would deal with it would be to arrest, try, convict and imprison as many people, who have been involved in the violence across England over the past few days, as possible. And they wouldn't be serving a half or a quarter of their sentences either.

I know it sounds simple, probably too simple, but it's the way I feel after witnessing these terrible scenes over the past few days. It's been absolutely disgraceful. I don't care if these people are poor, I don't care if these people are unemployed, I don't care if these people feel marginalised. There is no excuse for this shocking behaviour and the only way to deal with it is to make them face the full force of the law.

As for your 2nd point, you're correct to say that. I don't think most of these people want jobs either. But a lot of them will make the point about being unemployed and having no job prospects and for that being the reason behind their actions. I fail to see how taking this course of action will help them gain employment.

Yeah, I share and sense your frustration. The 'context' that a couple of people on here seek is to miss the point by a country mile - there is no excuse for this sort of behaviour. These people have spent the last few days ruining lives (and their own) and it's interesting to note some of the interviews where journalists are seeking justification. We had a c.14-y-o girl telling a reporter that she was 'taking her taxes back' (WTF?), then another couple of girls on the BBC (voice over video clip) saying that it was the fault of 'rich people' and when challenged about the local businesses that had been ruined said 'yeah, the rich people own the businesses'. Right enough, the woman that owned the hair salon had 50s falling out her pockets. Wonder what's going to happen to the girl who washes customers' hair for £5/hr?

Then another lassie, again about 14, saying that 'it's because you don't respect us. If you respect us, we'll respect you back' - that's scary deluded. In short, these people haven't a clue what they are doing, except violently filling their boots with other people's belongings. The rioters ransacked a carpet shop - a family business dating from the 1800s - and when they were done, burnt it to the ground. It defies belief, description and why one would reach for 'context' at this juncture is a mystery to most, myself included.

Sky interviewed a masked/shade-wearing eejit in Manchester tonight who wilfully admitted - in between swearing live on air, very tough! - that he was out to cause mayhem 'because [he] can'. Where's the 'context' in being an anti-social prick?

These people clearly deserve to be removed from society for a long time - perhaps forever - but it's a pipe dream to think that an appreciable number will get more than a fine to be paid from their benefits. And the taxpayer will foot the bill yet again. It's outrageous - why should I pay for this mayhem?

[GhostofBolivar]

Yeah, I share and sense your frustration. The 'context' that a couple of people on here seek is to miss the point by a country mile - there is no excuse for this sort of behaviour. These people have spent the last few days ruining lives (and their own) and it's interesting to note some of the interviews where journalists are seeking justification. We had a c.14-y-o girl telling a reporter that she was 'taking her taxes back' (WTF?), then another couple of girls on the BBC (voice over video clip) saying that it was the fault of 'rich people' and when challenged about the local businesses that had been ruined said 'yeah, the rich people own the businesses'. Right enough, the woman that owned the hair salon had 50s falling out her pockets. Wonder what's going to happen to the girl who washes customers' hair for £5/hr?

Then another lassie, again about 14, saying that 'it's because you don't respect us. If you respect us, we'll respect you back' - that's scary deluded. In short, these people haven't a clue what they are doing, except violently filling their boots with other people's belongings. The rioters ransacked a carpet shop - a family business dating from the 1800s - and when they were done, burnt it to the ground. It defies belief, description and why one would reach for 'context' at this juncture is a mystery to most, myself included.

Sky interviewed a masked/shade-wearing eejit in Manchester tonight who wilfully admitted - in between swearing live on air, very tough! - that he was out to cause mayhem 'because [he] can'. Where's the 'context' in being an anti-social prick?

These people clearly deserve to be removed from society for a long time - perhaps forever - but it's a pipe dream to think that an appreciable number will get more than a fine to be paid from their benefits. And the taxpayer will foot the bill yet again. It's outrageous - why should I pay for this mayhem?

Really?

I'm not trying to excuse this behaviour - it's appalling and the people responsible should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Nor do I deny that many of them are 'anti-social pricks' (I like how you said that right after you were snippy about them swearing.) What I am interested in are the underlying causes, because I'm fairly certain that if this was just down to them being bad people they'd be doing it every week. What's happened to our society that's made a generation of people think that ruining other people's homes and livelihoods is justifiable - even admirable - behaviour? Because - y'know - it might be a good idea to investigate this on the off chance the information could help prevent it from happening again.

And I don't believe it's as simple as telling them to get a job or work to make our society better, because I don't believe that many of these people have any sort of reference point or influence in their lives that points them in that direction. And I think that they have no interest in helping our society because many of them are not a part of it. They live in a world with a different morality and a code of conduct that's a warped parody of normal life. Why have we let this emerge? How do we fix it? I suppose we could shoot them in the head, but I'm not even sure Judge Dredd would do that. And I'm sure the Daily Mail readers among us would happily call for the reintroduction of National Service, but army life doesn't seem to have instilled a respect for society into Jonathan Haynes...

The last few days represent a failure of epic proportions by society firstly in it's failure to protect the vulnerable - how is it that the police can quite happily kettle a peaceful protest for 6 hours but seem helpless in the face of actual, systematic criminality? But society has also failed a generation of people who it felt were too much hassle to care about. And it's not missing the point to think that there are questions that need answered about this.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Really?

I'm not trying to excuse this behaviour - it's appalling and the people responsible should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Nor do I deny that many of them are 'anti-social pricks' (I like how you said that right after you were snippy about them swearing.) What I am interested in are the underlying causes, because I'm fairly certain that if this was just down to them being bad people they'd be doing it every week. What's happened to our society that's made a generation of people think that ruining other people's homes and livelihoods is justifiable - even admirable - behaviour? Because - y'know - it might be a good idea to investigate this on the off chance the information could help prevent it from happening again.

And I don't believe it's as simple as telling them to get a job or work to make our society better, because I don't believe that many of these people have any sort of reference point or influence in their lives that points them in that direction. And I think that they have no interest in helping our society because many of them are not a part of it. They live in a world with a different morality and a code of conduct that's a warped parody of normal life. Why have we let this emerge? How do we fix it? I suppose we could shoot them in the head, but I'm not even sure Judge Dredd would do that. And I'm sure the Daily Mail readers among us would happily call for the reintroduction of National Service, but army life doesn't seem to have instilled a respect for society into Jonathan Haynes...

The last few days represent a failure of epic proportions by society firstly in it's failure to protect the vulnerable - how is it that the police can quite happily kettle a peaceful protest for 6 hours but seem helpless in the face of actual, systematic criminality? But society has also failed a generation of people who it felt were too much hassle to care about. And it's not missing the point to think that there are questions that need answered about this.

well said :agree:

[magpie1892]

Really?

I'm not trying to excuse this behaviour - it's appalling and the people responsible should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Nor do I deny that many of them are 'anti-social pricks' (I like how you said that right after you were snippy about them swearing.) What I am interested in are the underlying causes, because I'm fairly certain that if this was just down to them being bad people they'd be doing it every week. What's happened to our society that's made a generation of people think that ruining other people's homes and livelihoods is justifiable - even admirable - behaviour? Because - y'know - it might be a good idea to investigate this on the off chance the information could help prevent it from happening again.

And I don't believe it's as simple as telling them to get a job or work to make our society better, because I don't believe that many of these people have any sort of reference point or influence in their lives that points them in that direction. And I think that they have no interest in helping our society because many of them are not a part of it. They live in a world with a different morality and a code of conduct that's a warped parody of normal life. Why have we let this emerge? How do we fix it? I suppose we could shoot them in the head, but I'm not even sure Judge Dredd would do that. And I'm sure the Daily Mail readers among us would happily call for the reintroduction of National Service, but army life doesn't seem to have instilled a respect for society into Jonathan Haynes...

The last few days represent a failure of epic proportions by society firstly in it's failure to protect the vulnerable - how is it that the police can quite happily kettle a peaceful protest for 6 hours but seem helpless in the face of actual, systematic criminality? But society has also failed a generation of people who it felt were too much hassle to care about. And it's not missing the point to think that there are questions that need answered about this.

Yes, really. Is my reaction so difficult to understand? It's not in any way extreme - not even by the standards on this thread, let alone MSM forums like the DM, Telegraph and even The Guardian.

Your swearing/anti-social comment would be extraneous even if prick were a swear word, but that's not important.

How do we fix it? Good question, and one that's going to be getting a lot of airtime in the days/weeks/months to come. I agree that there has been an 'epic' failure to protect society's vulnerable and this is why, after day one when the police got caught with their pants down, that Cameron should have returned to the UK forthwith and told COBRA that the police should have taken a far sterner approach on night two - tear gas, water cannon, rubber bullets, dogs, horses, etc. Again, I never suggested that it was missing the point to think that questions need to be asked/answered about the police approach but we have to start at the top and have these people understand that society wholly rejects their actions. The time for hand wringing is not now - action first to stop mayhem on the streets.

[Dashing Bob S]

Are you and Greenlex really, really suggesting that we kill people summarily for this? Honestly?

When you consider that the killing of just one man by the police precipitated what we have now, shooting dead a bunch of them would perhaps seem the most effective method for spreading real chaos.

Perhaps using these nuclear weapons on our own cities might also be worthy of consideration. Save ourselves the bother of living for a couple of generation under a crumbling fascist state before it finally goes tits up.

[hibsbollah]

When you consider that the killing of just one man by the police precipitated what we have now, shooting dead a bunch of them would perhaps seem the most effective method for spreading real chaos.

Perhaps using these nuclear weapons on our own cities might also be worthy of consideration. Save ourselves the bother of living for a couple of generation under a crumbling fascist state before it finally goes tits up.

Mutually Assured Destruction. Its the only language these feral youths engaging in sheer criminality™ understand.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
Nice to see Jamie Oliver putting his tuppenceworth in. Above the feature Imogens Bikini Reveals The Curves that Netted Ryan.

[Twa Cairpets]

Yes, really. Is my reaction so difficult to understand? It's not in any way extreme - not even by the standards on this thread, let alone MSM forums like the DM, Telegraph and even The Guardian.

Your swearing/anti-social comment would be extraneous even if prick were a swear word, but that's not important.

How do we fix it? Good question, and one that's going to be getting a lot of airtime in the days/weeks/months to come. I agree that there has been an 'epic' failure to protect society's vulnerable and this is why, after day one when the police got caught with their pants down, that Cameron should have returned to the UK forthwith and told COBRA that the police should have taken a far sterner approach on night two - tear gas, water cannon, rubber bullets, dogs, horses, etc. Again, I never suggested that it was missing the point to think that questions need to be asked/answered about the police approach but we have to start at the top and have these people understand that society wholly rejects their actions. The time for hand wringing is not now - action first to stop mayhem on the streets.

And once again, the entirely fallacious argument that there are legions of liberal do-gooders wringing their hands to try to excuse the poor rioters. It isnt true.

It's not just the police action that needs to be looked at. The state of a soceity where literally thousands see looting as an acceptable thing to do needs to be looked at. You believe that lack of consequences for actions gives people carte blanche to be criminal. This may be 100% right, a bit right, or small part of the picture - this is where understanding context comes in. There is no point putting time and resource into setting up a more punitive system (with all the attendant costs) if it is missing the root cause. I'll stress again - the root cause(s) may require action that offends the sensibilities of those of a more liberal outlook, or may seem like soft soap to the more right wing, but whatever it/they are, they need to be understood to allow action to be taken.

Whilst I have an almost pathological desire to disagree with almost everything you say, I do agree the priority must be to stop the rioters, but stop them within the rule of law.

[scotia44]

And once again, the entirely fallacious argument that there are legions of liberal do-gooders wringing their hands to try to excuse the poor rioters. It isnt true.

It's not just the police action that needs to be looked at. The state of a soceity where literally thousands see looting as an acceptable thing to do needs to be looked at. You believe that lack of consequences for actions gives people carte blanche to be criminal. This may be 100% right, a bit right, or small part of the picture - this is where understanding context comes in. There is no point putting time and resource into setting up a more punitive system (with all the attendant costs) if it is missing the root cause. I'll stress again - the root cause(s) may require action that offends the sensibilities of those of a more liberal outlook, or may seem like soft soap to the more right wing, but whatever it/they are, they need to be understood to allow action to be taken.

Whilst I have an almost pathological desire to disagree with almost everything you say, I do agree the priority must be to stop the rioters, but stop them within the rule of law.


For the love of god will you give it a rest with your "we need to find the root cause(s)" drivel:blah::yawn:

The root cause is criminals don't want to act within the law because they see it as an easier life to steal, rob,and the like.

Do we ask them during a lull in proceedings or do we send them a text when they have a brick or petrol bomb in hand "what is the reason you do this"

Or shall we wait for their first book to come out in 2 years time?

My Life as a Looter by nomark waster who laughed at authority.

[hibsbollah]

And once again, the entirely fallacious argument that there are legions of liberal do-gooders wringing their hands to try to excuse the poor rioters. It isnt true.

It's not just the police action that needs to be looked at. The state of a soceity where literally thousands see looting as an acceptable thing to do needs to be looked at. You believe that lack of consequences for actions gives people carte blanche to be criminal. This may be 100% right, a bit right, or small part of the picture - this is where understanding context comes in. There is no point putting time and resource into setting up a more punitive system (with all the attendant costs) if it is missing the root cause. I'll stress again - the root cause(s) may require action that offends the sensibilities of those of a more liberal outlook, or may seem like soft soap to the more right wing, but whatever it/they are, they need to be understood to allow action to be taken.

Whilst I have an almost pathological desire to disagree with almost everything you say, I do agree the priority must be to stop the rioters, but stop them within the rule of law.

Exactly right twocarpets. Contextualising the riots (if anyone has an issue with the use of the c word, just say Stop And Look Around If You Want To Understand Something instead) could (and probably will) result in illiberal, hard line policies that the rabid right might actually like. Its the refusal to stop and think thats the danger in all this.

[Twa Cairpets]

For the love of god will you give it a rest with your "we need to find the root cause(s)" drivel:blah::yawn:

The root cause is criminals don't want to act within the law because they see it as an easier life to steal, rob,and the like.

Do we ask them during a lull in proceedings or do we send them a text when they have a brick or petrol bomb in hand "what is the reason you do this"

Or shall we wait for their first book to come out in 2 years time?

My Life as a Looter by nomark waster who laughed at authority.

and breathe....

So I'm guessing then that you don't want to find the root cause? Let's assume you're right. What do you see as the best way to react? More draconian sentences? That works just swimmingly in the US with 3-strikes and you're out. Fill the prisons with criminals and who'll be the first to bleat about the costs of putting these people in jail? Erm. That'll be the likes of you then.

What you are monumentally failing to understand is that "understanding the reason" isnt anything to do with asking the rioters "why". It's about a dispassionate, disinterested look at what's happened. When evidence comes out then you act accordingly. Otherwise you're guessing. And I'll repeat, priority one is to stop it happening now, priority two (and a very close two) is to stop it happening again by doing the right things.

Or maybe we should just ask you what to do about it all.

Not that we'd get an actual answer of course.

[degenerated]

The last few days represent a failure of epic proportions by society firstly in it's failure to protect the vulnerable - how is it that the police can quite happily kettle a peaceful protest for 6 hours but seem helpless in the face of actual, systematic criminality? But society has also failed a generation of people who it felt were too much hassle to care about. And it's not missing the point to think that there are questions that need answered about this.

was discussing that with someone last night :agree: dare to protest about cuts, tuition fees, globalisation, capitalism, banking greed, institutionalised racism or anything that dares to challenge government policy and it is usually met with swift and brutal treatment from the met. why is it that they don't seem so keen to crack skulls when it isn't that they are faced with.

[Dashing Bob S]

They say that truth is the first casualty of any war.

Closely related, the saddest thing about this is that we've seen by the responses on TV, in newsprint and indeed on this board, it's not enough to say that you condemn the riots and looting and there's no excuse for criminal behaviour.

In order to join in the self-appointed club of 'upright law-abiding acceptable citizens' you have to say this repeatedly, on a loop, and preferably with escalating volume. Then, when some other trumpet comes along and suggests more draconian measures, you have to come in and top this, or at least slavishly endorse them.

What has been happening in the streets is irredeemably sad and horrific. The response to all, has so far, just compounded that. Gives me the feeling that we're entering into a pretty grim period.

[marinello59]

They say that truth is the first casualty of any war.

Closely related, the saddest thing about this is that we've seen by the responses on TV, in newsprint and indeed on this board, it's not enough to say that you condemn the riots and looting and there's no excuse for criminal behaviour.

In order to join in the self-appointed club of 'upright law-abiding acceptable citizens' you have to say this repeatedly, on a loop, and preferably with escalating volume. Then, when some other trumpet comes along and suggests more draconian measures, you have to come in and top this, or at least slavishly endorse them.

What has been happening in the streets is irredeemably sad and horrific. The response to all, has so far, just compounded that. Gives me the feeling that we're entering into a pretty grim period.

Maybe it will finally force Goverment to address the issues faced by a section of our society rather than continuing to ignore them. The alternative would be , as you say, grim.

[Betty Boop]

They say that truth is the first casualty of any war.

Closely related, the saddest thing about this is that we've seen by the responses on TV, in newsprint and indeed on this board, it's not enough to say that you condemn the riots and looting and there's no excuse for criminal behaviour.

In order to join in the self-appointed club of 'upright law-abiding acceptable citizens' you have to say this repeatedly, on a loop, and preferably with escalating volume. Then, when some other trumpet comes along and suggests more draconian measures, you have to come in and top this, or at least slavishly endorse them.

What has been happening in the streets is irredeemably sad and horrific. The response to all, has so far, just compounded that. Gives me the feeling that we're entering into a pretty grim period.

'Condemn more understand less'---John Major.

[IndieHibby]

(a) able to do what they are doing, and (b) why they think it is ok to do what they are doing, and (c) how we can prevent them doing it again.

So it turns out these looters are mainly; 1) local youths and 2) the usual rent-a-mob lot who turn out for most protests and 3) an increasing minority of actual criminals taking advantage.

To answer your questions, i.m.o;
a) because they have made a risk-reward calcualtion in their mind and have opted for the option "loot"
b) in the mind of group 1) teenagers (especially boys, but increasingly there are a group of females who are not comforming the normal stereotyping of female behaviour) have a diminished ability to independently empathise with others and so are not likley to take this into account when making such decisions. Thus this completely warps their decision making process (compared to say, you or I).
In the mind of group 2) because they are stupid and do not think through their actions
In the mind of group 3) because they are criminals and that's what criminals do.
c) Other than doing what the met should have done in the first instance, which was to diffuse the original protest by engaging (i.e. get them off the streets and away from the baying crows) and then to come down like a ton-of-bricks on the actual criminals who were looting and vandalising.

In my experience of dealing with (some) young people, they cannot be reasoned with and only respect those with the most force.

I'm not saying the met are to blame, maybe they didn't have the resources. Maybe they thought that to come down hard on a riot that had started because of the police might have made it worse.

I am saying that this thinking was wrong.

The mob senses weakness like a shark smells blood. Interesting that the riots stopped in London when the media reported that:
a) 16,000 police were on duty
b) they'd be using plastice bullets

Coincidence?

[stu in nottingham]

I witnessed at first hand some of the rioting in Nottingham last night. Although I'm not generally a fan of the local police force who I think have many shortcomings, I have to say they did a fine job last night. The city centre was flooded with officers, both on foot and mounted, and police dogs, protecting main shopping areas and other flashpoints. Officers repeatedly charged gangs of youths to disperse them and generally chased them all over the place. They worked diligently and hard and were a credit to themselves.

A couple of other observations were that there appeared to be a lot of youngsters making their way to the city for a 'lark' and to either join in or witness the proceedings, exacerbating the problems. I think some parents have to look to themselves and ask themselves where their kids were last night.

There were over a hundred arrests last night. I can't see this evening passing without trouble unfortunately, probably commencing as soon as darkness falls.

[IndieHibby]

It appears that three people have been killed in thier homes. One elderly gent trying to put out a fire that started in his wheelie bin was assaulted may now have died.

We must find out why.

I'll tell you why - because these people, when challenged by someone who isn't visually stronger than them, will turn around, say "well **** you" and give you a good hiding.

Because that is all they understand.

[bighairyfaeleith]

So it turns out these looters are mainly; 1) local youths and 2) the usual rent-a-mob lot who turn out for most protests and 3) an increasing minority of actual criminals taking advantage.

To answer your questions, i.m.o;
a) because they have made a risk-reward calcualtion in their mind and have opted for the option "loot"
b) in the mind of group 1) teenagers (especially boys, but increasingly there are a group of females who are not comforming the normal stereotyping of female behaviour) have a diminished ability to independently empathise with others and so are not likley to take this into account when making such decisions. Thus this completely warps their decision making process (compared to say, you or I).
In the mind of group 2) because they are stupid and do not think through their actions
In the mind of group 3) because they are criminals and that's what criminals do.
c) Other than doing what the met should have done in the first instance, which was to diffuse the original protest by engaging (i.e. get them off the streets and away from the baying crows) and then to come down like a ton-of-bricks on the actual criminals who were looting and vandalising.

In my experience of dealing with (some) young people, they cannot be reasoned with and only respect those with the most force.

I'm not saying the met are to blame, maybe they didn't have the resources. Maybe they thought that to come down hard on a riot that had started because of the police might have made it worse.

I am saying that this thinking was wrong.

The mob senses weakness like a shark smells blood. Interesting that the riots stopped in London when the media reported that:
a) 16,000 police were on duty
b) they'd be using plastice bullets

Coincidence?

Be interesting to see if they start up again when the police numbers drop

[Twa Cairpets]

So it turns out these looters are mainly; 1) local youths and 2) the usual rent-a-mob lot who turn out for most protests and 3) an increasing minority of actual criminals taking advantage.

To answer your questions, i.m.o;
a) because they have made a risk-reward calcualtion in their mind and have opted for the option "loot"
b) in the mind of group 1) teenagers (especially boys, but increasingly there are a group of females who are not comforming the normal stereotyping of female behaviour) have a diminished ability to independently empathise with others and so are not likley to take this into account when making such decisions. Thus this completely warps their decision making process (compared to say, you or I).
In the mind of group 2) because they are stupid and do not think through their actions
In the mind of group 3) because they are criminals and that's what criminals do.
c) Other than doing what the met should have done in the first instance, which was to diffuse the original protest by engaging (i.e. get them off the streets and away from the baying crows) and then to come down like a ton-of-bricks on the actual criminals who were looting and vandalising.

In my experience of dealing with (some) young people, they cannot be reasoned with and only respect those with the most force.

I'm not saying the met are to blame, maybe they didn't have the resources. Maybe they thought that to come down hard on a riot that had started because of the police might have made it worse.

I am saying that this thinking was wrong.

The mob senses weakness like a shark smells blood. Interesting that the riots stopped in London when the media reported that:
a) 16,000 police were on duty
b) they'd be using plastice bullets

Coincidence?

I think you're broadly accurate with a lot of this, but I want to focus on one point regarding young people. There is a lot of "the youth of today are ****less amoral layabouts". I would hate to see a broad brush, unthinking demonising of youth. I come into contact with a lot of kids and young adults through football, and the vast majority of them dont riot, dont loot, try to get jobs and/or work. Even if you look at Manchester/Salford last night, the numbers reported were in the hundreds. Out of a population of around 5 million, this is a tiny number who are involved. The damage and disruption they cause is disproportionate to their numbers, sure, but in terms of a considered long term response (at this point scotia44 can stop reading) I hope that everyone between 14 and 25 is not automatically demonised.