Riots in tottingham tonight

[IndieHibby]

Be interesting to see if they start up again when the police numbers drop

I doubt it. This whole sorry mess is an opportunistic free-for-all, created when it could be seen that the MET were either not resourced enough or not willing enough to deal with it effectively in the first place.

[cabbageandribs1875]

cheeky libyans

1055: BBC Monitoring

Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said

lol

[derekHFC]

If you knew you might be shot would you go out shopping? Hell I wouldn't leave the house for a few days if there was a chance of being shot dead. A few days of that and we would get back to normality.

Send the wife instead :greengrin

[IndieHibby]

I think you're broadly accurate with a lot of this, but I want to focus on one point regarding young people. There is a lot of "the youth of today are ****less amoral layabouts". I would hate to see a broad brush, unthinking demonising of youth. I come into contact with a lot of kids and young adults through football, and the vast majority of them dont riot, dont loot, try to get jobs and/or work. Even if you look at Manchester/Salford last night, the numbers reported were in the hundreds. Out of a population of around 5 million, this is a tiny number who are involved. The damage and disruption they cause is disproportionate to their numbers, sure, but in terms of a considered long term response (at this point scotia44 can stop reading) I hope that everyone between 14 and 25 is automatically demonised.

I hope I was clear enough in my post to show thatI agree completely with this. I teach secondary-age kids in a mixed comp 'dahn-saaf'. I know exactly what these kids are like.

The vast majority are some of the most decent and likeable people I know. They put many of the adults I know to shame.

The elephant in the room here is parents and lack of family ties to provide a sense of identity and a stake in the community.

P.S. I think that last line might not reflect your intended opinion. Perhaps.

[bighairyfaeleith]

cheeky libyans

1055: BBC Monitoring

Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said

lol


quality :thumbsup:

[LiverpoolHibs]

1968: Powell slates immigration policy
The Conservative right-winger Enoch Powell has made a hard-hitting speech attacking the government's immigration policy.

Addressing a Conservative association meeting in Birmingham, Mr Powell said Britain had to be mad to allow in 50,000 dependents of immigrants each year.

He compared it to watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.

The MP for Wolverhampton South West called for an immediate reduction in immigration and the implementation of a Conservative policy of "urgent" encouragement of those already in the UK to return home.

"It can be no part of any policy that existing families should be kept divided. But there are two directions on which families can be reunited," he said.


Like the Roman, I seem to see the river Tiber foaming with much blood<br>
Enoch Powell <br>

Mr Powell compared enacting legislation such as the Race Relations Bill to "throwing a match on to gunpowder".

He said that as he looked to the future he was filled with a sense of foreboding.

"Like the Roman, I seem to see the river Tiber foaming with much blood," he said.

He estimated that by the year 2000 up to seven million people - or one in ten of the population - would be of immigrant descent.

Mr Powell, the shadow defence spokesman, was applauded during and after his 45-mintue speech.

However, it is likely his comments will be less warmly received by the Conservative party leader, Edward Heath.

That didn't take long, did it. Well done...


Having a look through this thread and a few other blogs/news feeds, the reaction of those who may be described as somewhat to the right politically has been one of "bloody liberals trying to hug a hoodie!" "condem more understand less!" "thugs, bottom line, bring in the army" "hand wringers blaming everyone but the toerags who do it". (I paraphrase, but only a bit).

At the same time, apart from a few petty political points being made, I dont think anyone credible is defending the actions of the looters or rioters. I don't think "It's extraordinary that people sitting in the comfort of their unburnt and unlooted homes can pump out intellectuallised waffle about "context". " Of course people are going to discuss it, and try to contextaulise it - this is not a bad thing. It is the first step in actually doing something to stop repetition when the immedite problems die down.

There seems to be a backlash against a non-existent defence of the rioters propagated by the liberal mafia. The anger is justified, but as is almost always the case, the reaction is to come out with a few catch phrases of righteous indignation and red-faced fury without actually engaging the brain to think of 1) Why has it happened, and 2) What needs to be done to stop it happening again. The answers to both of these may ultimately be unpleasant to those at either end of the political spectrum and points inbetween.

It is not a case of empathising with rioters or judtifying their actions in a "there there" kind of way, but with understanding the motives (even if it is just pure base greed) to ensure no repetition.

Here's an indication of just how reactionary the reactionaries are reacting.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/08/roger-helmer-shoot-rioters/

It appears Helmer's isn't alone in his orgiastic fantasies of gunning down societies dregs in the streets.


Disagree with this completely. Arguably its far tougher for youths now in this position than it was for their counterparts in the eighties, who were the first generation since the war to face mass unemployment in their communities. At the time there was still a socialistic aspiration to equality, and left-leaning Labour party and an active and viable trade union movement and a reasonably free, comprehensive education system.

Now it's taken for granted that if you live in that locale you will part of a third generation unemployed army, living in an established drug-dominated black economy, in a individualistic society with no aspiration towards social equality, redistribution of wealth, and where achieving further/higher education saddles with debts for the rest of your life. All the time while vacuous greed, stupidity and moral selfishness are pushed as the aspirational norms through our media culture.

As for the 'community leaders' they seemed to a man and woman, the self-appointed Blairite quislings who built local grant-aided careers to smokescreen things while the Labour Party abandoned such place in search of Middle England votes. They were so detached from the youth of the areas they purport to represent, that they were genuinely shocked and surprised by the response.

Agree completely about the motivation of the looters and rioters. Why should they? These are only the same values that predominate in our society as a whole.

They can't afford to go shopping when its being pushed at them from all angles. They simply took the opportunity to do so. Of course they aren't radicals or revolutionaries or fighting for a cause. How many people are in our society?

Pretty much nailed it, Robert.

I don't think anyone's suggesting the rioters are students of Bakunin and Brousse convinced of the necessity of Propaganda of the Deed and of course their actions are stupid, uncontrolled and destructive - that's what a riot is by it's very nature. But, equally, people denying a political dimension to these acts and those who insist on 'pure criminality' are simply off their ****ing heads. You don't get violence to levels such as there has been - spreading across the country - if the motivating factor is pure criminal opportunism. No more than the '05 and '07 riots in the Paris banlieues were indicative of an explosion of opportunistic destruction and theft.

The greatest worry now is the EDL's positioning itself as defenders of the (white) community and the amount of traction that this seems to have gained in some quarters.

[Twa Cairpets]

I hope I was clear enough in my post to show thatI agree completely with this. I teach secondary-age kids in a mixed comp 'dahn-saaf'. I know exactly what these kids are like.

The vast majority are some of the most decent and likeable people I know. They put many of the adults I know to shame.

The elephant in the room here is parents and lack of family ties to provide a sense of identity and a stake in the community.

P.S. I think that last line might not reflect your intended opinion. Perhaps.

Correct, and changed...:greengrin

I didnt think this was your view by the way, but it is a view that many have as the knee-jerk reactions kick in.

[IndieHibby]

But, equally, people denying a political dimension to these acts and those who insist on 'pure criminality' are simply off their ****ing heads. You don't get violence to levels such as there has been - spreading across the country - if the motivating factor is pure criminal opportunism. No more than the '05 and '07 riots in the Paris banlieues were indicative of an explosion of opportunistic destruction and theft.



I think you may want to correct what you have just said in bold.

Unless, of course, you can explain the political dimension to driving your car, at speed, into a group of innocent shopkeepers, killing three of them.

Or, if that's to difficult for you, what about the elderly guy who came out of his house, not as a vigilante or wannabe EDL activist, merely to put out the fire in his wheelie bin, to be beaten to within an inch of his life, by the same group of people.

If it's political;
- where are the banners?
- where are the representatives talking to the media about their political perspective?
- why is other people's stuff being nicked, homes being burnt to the ground and lives being lost?

[LiverpoolHibs]

I think you may want to correct what you have just said in bold.

Unless, of course, you can explain the political dimension to driving your car, at speed, into a group of innocent shopkeepers, killing three of them.

Or, if that's to difficult for you, what about the elderly guy who came out of his house, not as a vigilante or wannabe EDL activist, merely to put out the fire in his wheelie bin, to be beaten to within an inch of his life, by the same group of people.

If it's political;
- where are the banners?
- where are the representatives talking to the media about their political perspective?
- why is other people's stuff being nicked, homes being burnt to the ground and lives being lost?

No, I don't want to change anything, thanks.

You, on the other hand, seem to have missed the point spectacularly.

[IndieHibby]

Correct, and changed...:greengrin

I didnt think this was your view by the way, but it is a view that many have as the knee-jerk reactions kick in.

The knee-jerkers (ooh-er) just need time to allow their anger to recede. Afterwards, they can mostly be rationalised with.

I do think that some people like to wind-them up though.

[IndieHibby]

No, I don't want to change anything, thanks.

You, on the other hand, seem to have missed the point spectacularly.

Please, enlighten me.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Please, enlighten me.

Well, for some reason you taken 'political dimension' to mean that the rioters and looters have an organised political programme that they are following.

I'm not sure why you've done so, particularly as two parts of the post you quoted were written to dismiss exactly that.

[IndieHibby]

But, equally, people denying a political dimension to these acts and those who insist on 'pure criminality' are simply off their ****ing heads. You don't get violence to levels such as there has been - spreading across the country - if the motivating factor is pure criminal opportunism

Why not? Where is the evidence that any of the riots in any of the other towns and cities has any political dimension.

All the evidence so far points to opportunistic criminality. In my observation.

[IndieHibby]

Well, for some reason you taken 'political dimension' to mean that the rioters and looters have an organised political programme that they are following.

I'm not sure why you've done so, particularly as two parts of the post you quoted were written to dismiss exactly that.

So what, in your view, is the "political dimension" that causes, sorry, is the context (get it right, stupid), for these riots?

Please forgive my sarcastic attempts at humour. :greengrin

What's political about any of this?

[Woody1985]

It's opportunism in the main, these little ****s know that they can do what the want and just go radge for a few days with limited consequences.

As for the guy that was shot that kicked this all off, bullet or no bullet hitting a police officer, it's tough ****. Carry a gun, expect to get shot.

I'm guessing that being stopped in a cab whilst he had a gun wasn't a random stop and search so this oppression of black 'yoofs' or whomever doesn't really fit with the original 'protest'. I read a comment from his brother 'he wouldn't shoot at the police, he wasn't that stupid'. So he'd shoot at other people, that's okay then. :faf:

Those on the streets now are just doing it for the fun and adreneline rush of it.

Not the exact same situation but I know a guy that was caught up in the G8 protests/riots in Edinburgh whilst out shopping and after being caged in by the police for a while he just lost it and joined in the fight for the fun of it. He wasn't some oppressed teenager, he just likes a fight and there was an opportunity to have a go a riot police. And yes, he was caught after his picture was published in the paper.

[Gatecrasher]

I would rather listen to the people taking part for finding the reason for this, So far we have had quotes like

Im just getting my taxes back
Just out for a laugh Innit
Just Getiing pissed
Just doin what i want
im not here to be lawful

they just sound like a bunch of wee tits to me, nothing more in it than that.

An "ethnic" shop owner from Wolverhampton was on the TV last night saying, these people weren't starving, they all had clothes on their back and looked healthy. If being poor is their gripe then they have no idea, they should have a look around the world and see people starving in Africa, war torn countries and they will really see just how hard up they are. If they feel oppertunities are limited for them, they have to work for it. if i can make it then so can they. They have no excuse.

I should probably add that this guys shop had been completely emptied and smashed up by the fuds

I agree with him.

[Twa Cairpets]

I would rather listen to the people taking part for finding the reason for this, So far we have had quotes like

Im just getting my taxes back
Just out for a laugh Innit
Just Getiing pissed
Just doin what i want
im not here to be lawful

they just sound like a bunch of wee tits to me, nothing more in it than that.

An "ethnic" shop owner from Wolverhampton was on the TV last night saying, these people weren't starving, they all had clothes on their back and looked healthy. If being poor is their gripe then they have no idea, they should have a look around the world and see people starving in Africa, war torn countries and they will really see just how hard up they are. If they feel oppertunities are limited for them, they have to work for it. if i can make it then so can they. They have no excuse

I agree with him.

As it happens, so do I.

I think everything should be done to catch them and bang them up. I think they should be dealt with quickly and to the full extent of the law.

But to avoid it happening again, why are they coming out with such p!sh? Is it the parents fault? Is it because they get too much by way of benefits during a recession? Is it because they get too little by way of benefits? Is there a need to introduce some type of directly restorative justice where the perpetrators have to work directly to repay the victims? Should they be given up on and just locked away for ever? Should they be birched?

They dont have an excuse, but that doesnt mean there isnt a reason or a range of reasons. I personally think it is because there is a glorification of the stupid and banal in society, where there is an expectation that things should be handed out on a plate while at the same time the only way to measure self worth is status, posessions and Big Brother type fame.

[Betty Boop]

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court John Brain tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.

[IndieHibby]

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court John Brain tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.

Oh dear. What a stupid, stupid woman.

Well, I think we can be assured she didn't do it out of poverty, disenfranchisement, political dimension or any other 'reason' quoted by many. She earns at least 30K.

Her case is probably the best example of opportunistic criminality.

[hibsbollah]

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/08/roger-helmer-shoot-rioters/It appears Helmer's isn't alone in his orgiastic fantasies of gunning down societies dregs in the streets.The greatest worry now is the EDL's positioning itself as defenders of the (white) community and the amount of traction that this seems to have gained in some quarters.I have a moronic family member involved with the EDL. They are all getting very excited and theres a lot of online activity. Apparently the Norwegian guy was right and this is just the start of a race war.

[Betty Boop]

Oh dear. What a stupid, stupid woman.

Well, I think we can be assured she didn't do it out of poverty, disenfranchisement, political dimension or any other 'reason' quoted by many. She earns at least 30K.

Her case is probably the best example of opportunistic criminality.

Or joining in a campaign of civil disobedience ?

[IndieHibby]

Or joining in a campaign of civil disobedience ?

In front of a smashed-up branch of Richer Sounds? While stealing? I think not.

[IndieHibby]

*sigh* Predictably, the Tory-graph reports said teacher with a thinly-veiled expression of glee. It took less than an hour.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100100434/a-teacher-is-charged-with-looting-why-am-i-not-surprised/

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As it happens, so do I.

I think everything should be done to catch them and bang them up. I think they should be dealt with quickly and to the full extent of the law.

But to avoid it happening again, why are they coming out with such p!sh? Is it the parents fault? Is it because they get too much by way of benefits during a recession? Is it because they get too little by way of benefits? Is there a need to introduce some type of directly restorative justice where the perpetrators have to work directly to repay the victims? Should they be given up on and just locked away for ever? Should they be birched?

They dont have an excuse, but that doesnt mean there isnt a reason or a range of reasons. I personally think it is because there is a glorification of the stupid and banal in society, where there is an expectation that things should be handed out on a plate while at the same time the only way to measure self worth is status, posessions and Big Brother type fame.


I think there is something in your last point - the idea of working hard to achieve anything that might come your way seems to be a very alien concept to lots of youngsters today. Why? Propably a whole range of things, from the consumer society in which we live to lack of education, to rank bad parents - i bet most of these kids are two or three generations removed from a mum and dad working type family - a traditional working class family you might call it.

So, we have tried the police-as-racist-bullies 'let's get tough approach' of the 70s and early 80s and it clearly didnt work. But we have also tried the 'throw money at them and treat them with kid-gloves' approach of the 1990s and 2000s, and that clearly hasnt worked either.

So what is the solution? We have a mass of illiterate, unemployable young people (two or three generations worth), many of whom can barely speak English properly (despite obviously being British), and who have no incentive, inclination or ability to learn, be educated or play a constructive role in society. Thats a pretty big political conundrum.

So, they can either wait for the political solution to an incredibly complex set of social, political and economic problems, or they can stop whingeing about the world being against them and do something positive to change it.

[ArabHibee]

Or joining in a campaign of civil disobedience ? And being caught with stolen items on her? Aye right.Smacks of opportunism.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

*sigh* Predictably, the Tory-graph reports said teacher with a thinly-veiled expression of glee. It took less than an hour.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100100434/a-teacher-is-charged-with-looting-why-am-i-not-surprised/


Done get all sanctimonious. Lets not pretend that the Guardian and 'the left' havent been gleefully reporting (and hoping) that it turned out that the guy who got shot was unlawfully executed by rogue racist policemen.

It works both ways (and that is probably part of the problem).

[BEEJ]

So it turns out these looters are mainly; 1) local youths and 2) the usual rent-a-mob lot who turn out for most protests and 3) an increasing minority of actual criminals taking advantage.

To answer your questions, i.m.o;
a) because they have made a risk-reward calcualtion in their mind and have opted for the option "loot"
b) in the mind of group 1) teenagers (especially boys, but increasingly there are a group of females who are not comforming the normal stereotyping of female behaviour) have a diminished ability to independently empathise with others and so are not likley to take this into account when making such decisions. Thus this completely warps their decision making process (compared to say, you or I).
In the mind of group 2) because they are stupid and do not think through their actions
In the mind of group 3) because they are criminals and that's what criminals do.
c) Other than doing what the met should have done in the first instance, which was to diffuse the original protest by engaging (i.e. get them off the streets and away from the baying crows) and then to come down like a ton-of-bricks on the actual criminals who were looting and vandalising.

In my experience of dealing with (some) young people, they cannot be reasoned with and only respect those with the most force.

I'm not saying the met are to blame, maybe they didn't have the resources. Maybe they thought that to come down hard on a riot that had started because of the police might have made it worse.

I am saying that this thinking was wrong.

The mob senses weakness like a shark smells blood. Interesting that the riots stopped in London when the media reported that:
a) 16,000 police were on duty
b) they'd be using plastice bullets

Coincidence?
:top marks Spot on.

Really not that difficult to fathom how the dynamics of mob rule, the 'buzz' of street warfare, the enhanced rewards of material gain compared to the reduced risks of being apprehended, all lead to the events that we've witnessed in recent nights.

A teenager interviewed on the radio this morning quite openly admitted that while he had no previous criminal convictions he had worked out the odds of a) being caught and then b) going to prison - "prisons are full ... they'll give me an ASBO ... I'll take my chances with that ...".

Whilst a desire to understand is commendable, those wishing to rationalise these events are often the ones least able to understand the base instincts that rise to the fore in such circumstances. Unfortunately not everyone applies rational thought and a functioning moral compass to their day to day decision-making.

In the short-term it's hard to see what will put an end to this now that there is a 'taste' out there for what is possible in these circumstances. Now that these mobs can be assembled and managed much more readily through social networking sites, it could mean that we will see outbursts of this kind of activity on our streets more often in future.

[magpie1892]

And once again, the entirely fallacious argument that there are legions of liberal do-gooders wringing their hands to try to excuse the poor rioters. It isnt true.

And, once again, you quote from my post and then insinuate I said something I didn't say. Where do I say 'legions'? 'liberal'? 'do-gooders'? I said the time for wringing hands is not now. That is all. Jesus, man, it's all there in black and white and still you misquote me. Makes for an utterly incoherent 'argument'.


Whilst I have an almost pathological desire to disagree with almost everything you say, I do agree the priority must be to stop the rioters, but stop them within the rule of law.

You might be inclined to agree with me more frequently occasions if you didn't scan my posts and make stuff up? I said last night, quite explicity, that I thought shooting protesters would not be an appropriate response and, later in the thread, you asked me/Greenlex if we were seriously advocating the shooting of protesters?

No wonder you disagree with me - your pathology seems to render you unable to read my posts correctly...

[khib70]

Or joining in a campaign of civil disobedience ?

Eh? I've got too much respect for you to really believe that you think looting Richer Sounds, or indeed burning people out of their homes and livelehoods is in any way "a campaign of civil disobedience".

I hope I've picked you up wrong

[--------]

I agree with a lot of that but the danger is that tarring everyone with the same brush automatically removes the possibility of anyone being trustworthy. You I am sure in your role are seen as a community leader, and I've read nothing to suggest you're troughing it. I know, MPs and councillors who are dedicated and hard working and honestly believe their prime role is to help people and their community.




I take your point, TC. I was thinking in terms of general perception rather than reality. It's very easy - and entirely unjustified - to make the corruption of the few an excuse for mayhem. Not that I'd reckon many of the rioters we've seen on our TVs lately need an excuse.

There aren't a lot of ways I can 'trough' it, TC - not unless I do a Benny Hinn and get my own show on the God Channel, but even then I don't have the hair or the shiny suits.

I agree entirely with your quote from Hitch-Hiker. People ARE the problem, though some people are bigger and more serious problems than others.

Speaking of THHGttG, and on an entirely different subject, perhaps we might find a cyber-version of THIS gizmo useful when posting on the net -

The Point of View gun conveniently does precisely what its name suggests. That is if you point it at someone and pull the trigger, they instantly see things from your point of view. It was designed by Deep Thought, but commissioned by a consortium of intergalactic angry housewives, who after countless arguments with their husbands were sick to the teeth of ending those arguments with the phrase "You just don't get it, do you?"

:devil:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I have a moronic family member involved with the EDL. They are all getting very excited and theres a lot of online activity. Apparently the Norwegian guy was right and this is just the start of a race war.

Interesting.

Maybe we all need to understand and listen to the people who are attracted to this ideology, and then address their grievances also?

[magpie1892]

Oh dear. What a stupid, stupid woman.

Well, I think we can be assured she didn't do it out of poverty, disenfranchisement, political dimension or any other 'reason' quoted by many. She earns at least 30K.

Her case is probably the best example of opportunistic criminality.

You're 'off your head' if you don't think she was making a political statement though!

[magpie1892]

Interesting.

Maybe we all need to understand and listen to the people who are attracted to this ideology, and then address their grievances also?

That should have happened years ago, instead of letting the likes of the BNP and the EDL set the 'agenda' on immigration issues.

[hibsbollah]

Interesting.Maybe we all need to understand and listen to the people who are attracted to this ideology, and then address their grievances also? Eh, naw.And who said anything about understanding anyones ideologies? I didnt.

[Twa Cairpets]

And, once again, you quote from my post and then insinuate I said something I didn't say. Where do I say 'legions'? 'liberal'? 'do-gooders'? I said the time for wringing hands is not now. That is all. Jesus, man, it's all there in black and white and still you misquote me. Makes for an utterly incoherent 'argument'.

Clearly implied by your post and therefore a valid response - my apologies of you think a little bit of prose to illustrate where I believe you're coming from rather than just quoting back everything verbatim is too much for you to accept as a valid disucssion style.


You might be inclined to agree with me more frequently occasions if you didn't scan my posts and make stuff up? I said last night, quite explicity, that I thought shooting protesters would not be an appropriate response and, later in the thread, you asked me/Greenlex if we were seriously advocating the shooting of protesters?

No wonder you disagree with me - your pathology seems to render you unable to read my posts correctly...

I accept the "shooting post" criticism, badly worded response from me. As for agreement with you. No. I don't think so. I do read your posts closely, and you come across as a kind of hybrid of Bill O'Reilly and Glen Beck.

[IndieHibby]

Done get all sanctimonious. Lets not pretend that the Guardian and 'the left' havent been gleefully reporting (and hoping) that it turned out that the guy who got shot was unlawfully executed by rogue racist policemen.

It works both ways (and that is probably part of the problem).

Wow. I wasn't (either sanctimonious or pretending). I just knew that someone at that paper would use her as a reason to bash teachers.

It fills an increasing number of their column inches these days.

Most people on this board know I am not a member of "The Left".

**Edit** Turns out it was a "he" and he wasn't a teacher, per se, but a primary school 'worker'. So he was employed full-time.

[Hibrandenburg]

Have we got to the 'bring back the birch' part of this thread yet or are you all too worried that it might encourage 'you know who' to start posting again?

[IndieHibby]

[QUOTE=BEEJ;2882957]:top marks Spot on.

Whilst a desire to understand is commendable, those wishing to rationalise these events are often the ones least able to understand the base instincts that rise to the fore in such circumstances. Unfortunately not everyone applies rational thought and a functioning moral compass to their day to day decision-making.

QUOTE]

:agree:

Some people are just plain stoopid.

[IndieHibby]

Have we got to the 'bring back the birch' part of this thread yet or are you all too worried that it might encourage 'you know who' to start posting again?

It's funny that you mention the birch. [ I do not, do not, do not recommed it's re-introduction]

Buuuuuuuuut.........

My grandfather told me a story about the birch once. Apparently a lad he once knew, decided (out of sheer stupidity) to throw a brick at a passing train engine.

Anyway, it got to court and he got the birch.

By his own testimony, he stated that before the incident he was one a 'bad path' and would have ended up in jail or dead. He also stated that it was this incident that made him turn his life around.

He is, by my grandfathers account, now doing very well for himself, is a member of the "establishment", so much so in fact, that my grandfather wouldn't tell me his name. My grandfather was in a position to know a fair number of 'high-heid-yins'....

Anyway, moral of the story - A guy who got the birch credits it with turning his life away from one of crime.

Take from that what you will...

[greenlex]

It's funny that you mention the birch. [ I do not, do not, do not recommed it's re-introduction]

Buuuuuuuuut.........

My grandfather told me a story about the birch once. Apparently a lad he once knew, decided (out of sheer stupidity) to throw a brick at a passing train engine.

Anyway, it got to court and he got the birch.

By his own testimony, he stated that before the incident he was one a 'bad path' and would have ended up in jail or dead. He also stated that it was this incident that made him turn his life around.

He is, by my grandfathers account, now doing very well for himself, is a member of the "establishment", so much so in fact, that my grandfather wouldn't tell me his name. My grandfather was in a position to know a fair number of 'high-heid-yins'....

Anyway, moral of the story - A guy who got the birch credits it with turning his life away from one of crime.

Take from that what you will...
Cannae be true. The birch turns misguided youths/individuals into worse offenders doesnt it?

[Twa Cairpets]

:top marks Spot on.

Really not that difficult to fathom how the dynamics of mob rule, the 'buzz' of street warfare, the enhanced rewards of material gain compared to the reduced risks of being apprehended, all lead to the events that we've witnessed in recent nights.

A teenager interviewed on the radio this morning quite openly admitted that while he had no previous criminal convictions he had worked out the odds of a) being caught and then b) going to prison - "prisons are full ... they'll give me an ASBO ... I'll take my chances with that ...".

Whilst a desire to understand is commendable, those wishing to rationalise these events are often the ones least able to understand the base instincts that rise to the fore in such circumstances. Unfortunately not everyone applies rational thought and a functioning moral compass to their day to day decision-making.

In the short-term it's hard to see what will put an end to this now that there is a 'taste' out there for what is possible in these circumstances. Now that these mobs can be assembled and managed much more readily through social networking sites, it could mean that we will see outbursts of this kind of activity on our streets more often in future.

There isnt a corellation between desire to understand and a wish to rationalise. The actions of the rioters arent rational "let's burn down where we live". Genius.

If we end up discovering that actually, the scrotes have alwys been there but the advent of new technology just means that they are able to co-ordinate easily, then that leads you down a different road than if the outcome is that actually, the incentive for people to go and work is not there becuase benefits are too high. Or it might be both. Or neither. I don't know. But it would be good to find out without it being a political football dominated by soundbites and simplistic explanations if we want our best shot at avoiding a recurrence.

[IndieHibby]

There isnt a corellation between desire to understand and a wish to rationalise. The actions of the rioters arent rational "let's burn down where we live". Genius.

If we end up discovering that actually, the scrotes have alwys been there but the advent of new technology just means that they are able to co-ordinate easily, then that leads you down a different road than if the outcome is that actually, the incentive for people to go and work is not there becuase benefits are too high. Or it might be both. Or neither. I don't know. But it would be good to find out without it being a political football dominated by soundbites and simplistic explanations if we want our best shot at avoiding a recurrence.

Is there anything to 'understand' though?

A lot of people got wind of the fact that the Police weren't able to stop large numbers of people doing whatever they wanted and combined with the easy access of media reports about what was going on, the use of BBM to organise locally meeting points/times and the fact that apparently the met gave orders to 'contain, not confront' (due to pending legal cases about their riot control procedures) led to ongoing and worsening conditions.

Oh, and the fact that looters couldn't give too hoots about anyone other than themselves.

There is a danger of over-intellectualising this, imo.

[IndieHibby]

Cannae be true. The birch turns misguided youths/individuals into worse offenders doesnt it?

I know, I know. This is what I have been taught.

Even though my own experience is to the contrary, I should really listen to my betters.

[Twa Cairpets]

Is there anything to 'understand' though?

A lot of people got wind of the fact that the Police weren't able to stop large numbers of people doing whatever they wanted and combined with the easy access of media reports about what was going on, the use of BBM to organise locally meeting points/times and the fact that apparently the met gave orders to 'contain, not confront' (due to pending legal cases about their riot control procedures) led to ongoing and worsening conditions.

Oh, and the fact that looters couldn't give too hoots about anyone other than themselves.

There is a danger of over-intellectualising this, imo.

I think it is the opposite of over-intellectualising to be honest. My hope is that will be what happens anyway. Things to understand would include:

How much of the looting was opportunist, how much was organised?
The extent that BBM or Twitter played a part, how it can be addressed - this is hugely important, as it adds a completely new dimension to this type of criminal behavious that has been absent in the past. If police intelligence is key to effective policing, how can these networks be legally intercepted/monitored?
How much effect did the police tactics have in encouraging continued crime?
To what extent did the pending legislation you refer to curtail their activities?

If it turns out that what we need to do to ensure no repetition is to allow the police extra powers in times of riot, for example, and that decision is based on solid evidence and not political posturing or knee jerk anger, then great, I'm all for it. The reason we need to understand is solely to make the right decisions based on facts. It is not "understand" in the sense of empathising, condoning or navel gazing.

[RyeSloan]

I think it is the opposite of over-intellectualising to be honest. My hope is that will be what happens anyway. Things to understand would include:

How much of the looting was opportunist, how much was organised?
The extent that BBM or Twitter played a part, how it can be addressed - this is hugely important, as it adds a completely new dimension to this type of criminal behavious that has been absent in the past. If police intelligence is key to effective policing, how can these networks be legally intercepted/monitored?
How much effect did the police tactics have in encouraging continued crime?
To what extent did the pending legislation you refer to curtail their activities?

If it turns out that what we need to do to ensure no repetition is to allow the police extra powers in times of riot, for example, and that decision is based on solid evidence and not political posturing or knee jerk anger, then great, I'm all for it. The reason we need to understand is solely to make the right decisions based on facts. It is not "understand" in the sense of empathising, condoning or navel gazing.

All of which makes total sense but is some way away from the 'moral compass is lost' and 'take away their futures and this is what happens' comments on ths thread.

I'm with Indie on this one...I think we are in danger of reading far too much into these events but I totally agree with your last post in that lessons should and must be learned to prevent a repeat.

[Twa Cairpets]

All of which makes total sense but is some way away from the 'moral compass is lost' and 'take away their futures and this is what happens' comments on ths thread.
I'm with Indie on this one...I think we are in danger of reading far too much into these events but I totally agree with your last post in that lessons should and must be learned to prevent a repeat.

Although this may well be an element of it. There are lots of elements involved, although I'm not quite sure how you can measure, quantify and address the issue of loss of moral compass...

[IndieHibby]

I think it is the opposite of over-intellectualising to be honest. My hope is that will be what happens anyway. Things to understand would include:

How much of the looting was opportunist, how much was organised?
The extent that BBM or Twitter played a part, how it can be addressed - this is hugely important, as it adds a completely new dimension to this type of criminal behavious that has been absent in the past. If police intelligence is key to effective policing, how can these networks be legally intercepted/monitored?
How much effect did the police tactics have in encouraging continued crime?
To what extent did the pending legislation you refer to curtail their activities?

If it turns out that what we need to do to ensure no repetition is to allow the police extra powers in times of riot, for example, and that decision is based on solid evidence and not political posturing or knee jerk anger, then great, I'm all for it. The reason we need to understand is solely to make the right decisions based on facts. It is not "understand" in the sense of empathising, condoning or navel gazing.

What you have stated here, is not what I would call over-intellectualisation.

This would be an example:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-uk-athens-greece

Pending the outcome of the inquiry, I'd place my bets on:
BBM played a significant part in allowing this to be co-ordinated (although I don't think there was too much 'organisation')
The resident gang culture meant that the groups were already present, they just needed a wick to stick to.
Unless we are going to create a Police State, private communication such as BBM will need to remain private (although I read that Blackberry were going to hand over the master-key for their encryptions, which would be contentious in itself - see "phone hacking")
I think the tactics are likely to be criticised, as are the resource levels of the Met.

But this is just gleaned from skimming over media reports.

[IndieHibby]

Read this:

http://rosamicula.livejournal.com/540476.html

[Future17]

What you have stated here, is not what I would call over-intellectualisation.

This would be an example:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-uk-athens-greece

Pending the outcome of the inquiry, I'd place my bets on:
BBM played a significant part in allowing this to be co-ordinated (although I don't think there was too much 'organisation')
The resident gang culture meant that the groups were already present, they just needed a wick to stick to.
Unless we are going to create a Police State, private communication such as BBM will need to remain private (although I read that Blackberry were going to hand over the master-key for their encryptions, which would be contentious in itself - see "phone hacking")
I think the tactics are likely to be criticised, as are the resource levels of the Met.

But this is just gleaned from skimming over media reports.

Blackberry targeted by hackers, apparently for offering to assist Police:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14476620

[heidtheba]

cheeky libyans

1055: BBC Monitoring

Libyan foreign ministry spokesman Khalid Ka'im has called on world governments to take action over the unrest in the UK. David Cameron has lost legitimacy and "must go", Libya's official news agency Jana reports. Libya "demands that the international community not stand with arms folded in the face of this gross aggression against the rights of the British people, who are demanding its right to rule its country", the report said

lol


Hehe - reminds me of the wee aboriginal australian leader who sailed to the UK in 1989 (was that the '200th anniversary' of Australia?) and planted an aboriginal flag and claimed the UK to be part of his group's empire. A point well made in his case I think!

[SteveHFC]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Football-Firms-of-the-UK-stand-together-with-the-Police-agaisnt-the-riots/232424910134000

[Betty Boop]

Eh? I've got too much respect for you to really believe that you think looting Richer Sounds, or indeed burning people out of their homes and livelehoods is in any way "a campaign of civil disobedience".

I hope I've picked you up wrong

Of course I don't condone any of the above, that goes without saying. However you have to wonder why the government were caught off guard and ill prepared, when Mervyn King was warning of social unrest, and the Police Federation were also warning of widespread disorder on our streets, as recently as last year.

[Sir David Gray]

Two men convicted of being involved in the riots in Manchester last night have been sent to jail for 10 weeks and 16 weeks. Both will almost certainly be out by next month.

That should teach them. :aok:

[Twa Cairpets]

Two men convicted of being involved in the riots in Manchester last night have been sent to jail for 10 weeks and 16 weeks. Both will almost certainly be out by next month.

That should teach them. :aok:

They were both convicted of using "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498)

To me being banged up for 2-3 months for essentially pretending to be a hard man is about right. Tuesday night spent being a tw@t, the next ten Tuesdays banged up. Wouldnt fancy it myself.

How long would FalkirkHibee justice dictate they're sent down for?

[Woody1985]

Of course I don't condone any of the above, that goes without saying. However you have to wonder why the government were caught off guard and ill prepared, when Mervyn King was warning of social unrest, and the Police Federation were also warning of widespread disorder on our streets, as recently as last year. It's a conspiracy.:rolleyes:

[magpie1892]

They were both convicted of using "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498)

To me being banged up for 2-3 months for essentially pretending to be a hard man is about right. Tuesday night spent being a tw@t, the next ten Tuesdays banged up. Wouldnt fancy it myself.

How long would FalkirkHibee justice dictate they're sent down for?

You're serious? They should be sent down for a US-style 125 years?

Harsh, man. Harsh.

[hibsbollah]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fw atch%3Fv%3DEW0356brnrE%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&feature=youtu.be&v=EW0356brnrE&gl=GB

The madness has come to edinburgh now. Terrible.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Of course I don't condone any of the above, that goes without saying. However you have to wonder why the government were caught off guard and ill prepared, when Mervyn King was warning of social unrest, and the Police Federation were also warning of widespread disorder on our streets, as recently as last year.

We're all going on a summer holiday, no more work for a week or two:stirrer:

[Dashing Bob S]

One of the worst things about the hysterical rather than analytical reaction to events like the spate of urban looting and rioting, is history shows us how these disasters are compounded. When you have politicians and media figures ranting and the 'man in the street' compounding these slaverings, the criminal justice system tends to bomb. It becomes all about being seen to do something, with the police getting the numbers in and these bodies quickly pushed through the courts. The press then have something to write about, vilifying the people in question in the way they do. All so that a dithering ponce like Cameron who sat under the Tuscan sun for days while Tottenham burned, can be seen to be 'getting tough' on law and order.

Of course, so many of those arrests will be inherently unsafe, and many more will be arrant nonsense.

Research on urban disturbances has shown that it's easier and safer for a on-the-ground coppers to ID, pursue and catch harmless onlookers than those in the tightly-bunched, dangerous core mob. It's human nature and I wouldn't blame any police officers for reacting in this way.

But disadvantaged people in those volatile communities also see the massive inconsistency where a police officer's shooting dead a citizen will take months before a (supposedly independent) police review body decides that there may or may not be something amiss, whereas an alleged looter or rioter can be dealt with in the courts the next day.

This only leads to further bad feeling and I think will cause more problems that it solves in the long run.

Basically, I doubt that jail time will deter most of the people involved. They are mainly just standing around on the streets doing nothing anyway, so from their point of view they might as well do it inside and get three square meals and a decent grounding from more savvy old lags about how to be better in their chosen criminal specialism. Then, when they come back out onto the streets and unemployment, they'll be be far more successful at what they do.

[lapsedhibee]

Research on urban disturbances has shown that it's easier and safer for a on-the-ground coppers to ID, pursue and catch harmless onlookers than those in the tightly-bunched, dangerous core mob. It's human nature and I wouldn't blame any police officers for reacting in this way.

:agree: CropleyWasGod Junior is still in the frame, receipts or no.

[Twa Cairpets]

You're serious? They should be sent down for a US-style 125 years?

Harsh, man. Harsh.

I haven't a scooby if this is sarcasm, serious, humour or a something else entirely.

[steakbake]

Interesting to see some of the details of the people being charged. Teaching assistants, university students, youth workers... army recruits etc etc - these are not the ****less, shiftless youth that some would have us believe were the make-up of the rioters.

Just reinforces my view that this was in many cases of the rioters, nothing more than an opportunity to wreak havoc, go mental and take advantage of temporary situation where the rule of law broke down and use strength in numbers to grab some free stuff.

[khib70]

Of course I don't condone any of the above, that goes without saying. However you have to wonder why the government were caught off guard and ill prepared, when Mervyn King was warning of social unrest, and the Police Federation were also warning of widespread disorder on our streets, as recently as last year.
Fair enough

And you're absolutely right that the authorities should have seen this coming. It's unfortunate that three brave people should have to die defending their businesses and community before control is re established.

And the biggest dirtbags around are those like the EDL who try to graft on a racial dimension. It's pretty clear from the TV coverage that the looters are a particularly multicultural bunch, and that many of the people whose businesses were destroyed were black or Asian. Politicos of left or right cashing in on this to pursue their agendas are just parasites. And, yes, that includes you, Alex Salmond!

[hibsbollah]

Fair enough And you're absolutely right that the authorities should have seen this coming. It's unfortunate that three brave people should have to die defending their businesses and community before control is re established.And the biggest dirtbags around are those like the EDL who try to graft on a racial dimension. It's pretty clear from the TV coverage that the looters are a particularly multicultural bunch, and that many of the people whose businesses were destroyed were black or Asian. Politicos of left or right cashing in on this to pursue their agendas are just parasites. And, yes, that includes you, Alex Salmond!Salmond made me cringe yesterday; 'these riots didnt happen in Scotland and THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to happen in Scotland'. Yes, and I suppose a short fat greasy jowly old schemer like you would stop them.

[lapsedhibee]

The madness has come to edinburgh now.

Haven't seen any looting in town over the last few days but have noticed an increase in hooded yoofs wandering off pavements on to the roads as if they owned the roads. Clear copycat effect, which won't escalate into looting because that WON'T BE ALLOWED to happen in Scotland.

[hibsbollah]

Haven't seen any looting in town over the last few days but have noticed an increase in hooded yoofs wandering off pavements on to the roads as if they owned the roads. Clear copycat effect, which won't escalate into looting because that WON'T BE ALLOWED to happen in Scotland. Ive also noticed an increase in careless and antisocial opening and closing of umbrellas in our capital over the last few days. This kind of reckless criminality could easily result in serious eye injury

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: CropleyWasGod Junior is still in the frame, receipts or no.

:na na:

Say what you want, but I'm having a good Christmas this year :greengrin

[Dashing Bob S]

Salmond made me cringe yesterday; 'these riots didnt happen in Scotland and THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to happen in Scotland'. Yes, and I suppose a short fat greasy jowly old schemer like you would stop them.

Agreed. Made a tit of himself. Ought to have shown a bit more class and stayed out of it.

I don't think the riots would happen in Scotland, and arguably because of the SNP, who function as a democratic safely valve, which is absent south of the border, with their alternative to Lab-Lib-Con Middle Englander politics.

But no self-respecting bam could read Salmond's comments and not take that as a challenge to get out there and tear the place up.

[Betty Boop]

Fair enough

And you're absolutely right that the authorities should have seen this coming. It's unfortunate that three brave people should have to die defending their businesses and community before control is re established.

And the biggest dirtbags around are those like the EDL who try to graft on a racial dimension. It's pretty clear from the TV coverage that the looters are a particularly multicultural bunch, and that many of the people whose businesses were destroyed were black or Asian. Politicos of left or right cashing in on this to pursue their agendas are just parasites. And, yes, that includes you, Alex Salmond!

According to Sky News there are only concerned citizens patrolling the streets of Eltham and Enfield, no reference whatsoever to the EDL. Have the knuckledraggers blamed Muslamic ray guns yet ? Watching the Punch and Judy show that passes for 'debate' in Parliament is depressing and farcical, our politicians appear to be on another planet.

[Betty Boop]

Who the heck is Lauren Orda ? :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Agreed. Made a tit of himself. Ought to have shown a bit more class and stayed out of it. I don't think the riots would happen in Scotland, and arguably because of the SNP, who function as a democratic safely valve, which is absent south of the border, with their alternative to Lab-Lib-Con Middle Englander politics.But no self-respecting bam could read Salmond's comments and not take that as a challenge to get out there and tear the place up.Och im sure Scot Labour are just as bad. Iain Gray would have claimed to have seen Megrahi amongst the looters if he just had the wit to think of it.By contrast I have no problem with the likes of Harman or Jack Straw making the points they have about cuts in the police budget among other things. Thats their job as an effective opposition.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Agreed. Made a tit of himself. Ought to have shown a bit more class and stayed out of it.

I don't think the riots would happen in Scotland, and arguably because of the SNP, who function as a democratic safely valve, which is absent south of the border, with their alternative to Lab-Lib-Con Middle Englander politics.

But no self-respecting bam could read Salmond's comments and not take that as a challenge to get out there and tear the place up.


Agree to an extent Bob, he probably would have been wise to say nothing.

But, at the start of the Festival, when Edinburgh's (and im sure Scotland's) economy is boosted hugely by visitors coming from Europe who could easily cancel at short notice, it is perhaps a valid point to make that what is happening in 'Britain' is actually not happening in Scotland.

I wonder what the Mayor of London or Visit England would make of it if constant social tension and riots in Northern Ireland were lazily and constantly referred to as social unrest / riots in Britain?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

One of the best articles i have read on the riots so far - cuts through much of the baggage from both sides.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-society

[Woody1985]

Agree to an extent Bob, he probably would have been wise to say nothing.

But, at the start of the Festival, when Edinburgh's (and im sure Scotland's) economy is boosted hugely by visitors coming from Europe who could easily cancel at short notice, it is perhaps a valid point to make that what is happening in 'Britain' is actually not happening in Scotland.

I wonder what the Mayor of London or Visit England would make of it if constant social tension and riots in Northern Ireland were lazily and constantly referred to as social unrest / riots in Britain?

:agree::top marks

On the first part (not in bold), and I've not heard his full statement but perhaps Salmond is correct that it wouldn't be allowed to happen in Scotland. Smaller populations, in smaller cities, in presumably smaller city centres would mean that it would/should be easier to control and disperse.

If something breaks out in the centre of a local borough, that presumably could be the size of Edinburgh, and it happens in lots of different places at once then surely it's more difficult for them to manage and control.

[Betty Boop]

Looks as though a clampdown on social media outlets is imminent, according to Cameron.

[Bishop Hibee]

Looks as though a clampdown on social media outlets is imminent, according to Cameron.

itz tht fcbk n txt stuffs falt init

[Part/Time Supporter]

Agree to an extent Bob, he probably would have been wise to say nothing.

But, at the start of the Festival, when Edinburgh's (and im sure Scotland's) economy is boosted hugely by visitors coming from Europe who could easily cancel at short notice, it is perhaps a valid point to make that what is happening in 'Britain' is actually not happening in Scotland.

I wonder what the Mayor of London or Visit England would make of it if constant social tension and riots in Northern Ireland were lazily and constantly referred to as social unrest / riots in Britain?

:agree:

The annual July 12 nonsense in Northern Ireland isn't presented as "Irish riots" or "UK riots".

The concern I would have with what Salmond has said is that it is a bit complacent to say that it wouldn't happen in Scotland. Much of the same societal conditions exist, and devolution makes little or no difference to the factors that create those conditions. TBH it could be something as simple as the bad weather that has put people off doing it.

[Twa Cairpets]

itz tht fcbk n txt stuffs falt init

txt flk kn whts gng on

[GhostofBolivar]

Ah, Hazel Blears. "What we need to ask is why are these kids not at school?"

Probably because it's the summer holidays you odious, orange dwarf.

And on the Tory side Peter Tapsell looking to emulate Pinochet by turning the national stadium into a prison camp.

Wonderful people.

[Betty Boop]

Ah, Hazel Blears. "What we need to ask is why are these kids not at school?"

Probably because it's the summer holidays you odious, orange dwarf.

And on the Tory side Peter Tapsell looking to emulate Pinochet by turning the national stadium into a prison camp.

Wonderful people.


:agree: The only one I heard making a sensible contribution was Gerald Kaufman.

[Bishop Hibee]

I was forwarded this from the archive:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/how-to-really-hug-a-hoodie

leads into:

http://www.actiononviolence.com

[Betty Boop]

An open letter to David Cameron's parents.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

An Open Letter to David Cameron’s Parents

August 10, 2011

Dear Mr & Mrs Cameron,

Why did you never take the time to teach your child basic morality?

As a young man, he was in a gang that regularly smashed up private property. We know that you were absent parents who left your child to be brought up by a school rather than taking responsibility for his behaviour yourselves. The fact that he became a delinquent with no sense of respect for the property of others can only reflect that fact that you are terrible, lazy human beings who failed even in teaching your children the difference between right and wrong. I can only assume that his contempt for the small business owners of Oxford is indicative of his wider values.

Even worse, your neglect led him to fall in with a bad crowd.

There’s Michael Gove, whose wet-lipped rage was palpable on Newsnight last night. This is the Michael Gove who confused one of his houses with another of his houses in order to avail himself of £7,000 of the taxpayers’ money to which he was not entitled (or £13,000, depending on which house you think was which).

Or Hazel Blears, who was interviewed in full bristling peahen mode for almost all of last night. She once forgot which house she lived in, and benefited to the tune of £18,000. At the time she said it would take her reputation years to recover. Unfortunately not.

But, of course, this is different. This is just understandable confusion over the rules of how many houses you are meant to have as an MP. This doesn’t show the naked greed of people stealing plasma tellies.

Unless you’re Gerald Kaufman, who broke parliamentary rules to get £8,000 worth of 40-inch, flat screen, Bang and Olufsen TV out of the taxpayer.

Or Ed Vaizey, who got £2,000 in antique furniture ‘delivered to the wrong address’. Which is fortunate, because had that been the address they were intended for, that would have been fraud.

Or Jeremy hunt, who broke the rules to the tune of almost £20,000 on one property and £2,000 on another. But it’s all right, because he agreed to pay half of the money back. Not the full amount, it would be absurd to expect him to pay back the entire sum that he took and to which he was not entitled. No, we’ll settle for half. And, as in any other field, what might have been considered embezzlement of £22,000 is overlooked. We know, after all, that David Cameron likes to give people second chances.

Fortunately, we have the Met Police to look after us. We’ll ignore the fact that two of its senior officers have had to resign in the last six weeks amid suspicions of widespread corruption within the force.

We’ll ignore Andy Hayman, who went for champagne dinners with those he was meant to be investigating, and then joined the company on leaving the Met.

Of course, Mr and Mrs Cameron, your son is right. There are parts of society that are not just broken, they are sick. Riddled with disease from top to bottom.

Just let me be clear about this (It’s a good phrase, Mr and Mrs Cameron, and one I looted from every sentence your son utters, just as he looted it from Tony Blair), I am not justifying or minimising in any way what has been done by the looters over the last few nights. What I am doing, however, is expressing shock and dismay that your son and his friends feel themselves in any way to be guardians of morality in this country.

Can they really, as 650 people who have shown themselves to be venal pygmies, moral dwarves at every opportunity over the last 20 years, bleat at others about ‘criminality’. Those who decided that when they broke the rules (the rules they themselves set) they, on the whole wouldn’t face the consequences of their actions?

Are they really surprised that this country’s culture is swamped in greed, in the acquisition of material things, in a lust for consumer goods of the most base kind? Really?

Let’s have a think back: cash-for-questions; Bernie Ecclestone; cash-for-access; Mandelson’s mortgage; the Hinduja passports; Blunkett’s alleged insider trading (and, by the way, when someone has had to resign in disgrace twice can we stop having them on television as a commentator, please?); the meetings on the yachts of oligarchs; the drafting of the Digital Economy Act with Lucian Grange; Byers’, Hewitt’s & Hoon’s desperation to prostitute themselves and their positions; the fact that Andrew Lansley (in charge of NHS reforms) has a wife who gives lobbying advice to the very companies hoping to benefit from the NHS reforms. And that list didn’t even take me very long to think of.

Our politicians are for sale and they do not care who knows it.

Oh yes, and then there’s the expenses thing. Widescale abuse of the very systems they designed, almost all of them grasping what they could while they remained MPs, to build their nest egg for the future at the public’s expense. They even now whine on Twitter about having their expenses claims for getting back to Parliament while much of the country is on fire subject to any examination. True public servants.

The last few days have revealed some truths, and some heartening truths. The fact that the #riotcleanup crews had organised themselves before David Cameron even made time for a public statement is heartening. The fact that local communities came together to keep their neighbourhoods safe when the police failed is heartening. The fact that there were peace vigils being organised (even as the police tried to dissuade people) is heartening.

There is hope for this country. But we must stop looking upwards for it. The politicians are the ones leading the charge into the gutter.

David Cameron was entirely right when he said: “It is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society, people allowed to think that the world owes them something, that their rights outweigh their responsibilities, and that their actions do not have consequences.”

He was more right than he knew.

And I blame the parents.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/ (http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/)

[Bishop Hibee]

The feral elite and the feral underclass have a lot in common then :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Very good BB. You can almost feel the bile boiling inside mr tapley.

[hibsbollah]

Anyone watching Question Time special? Prescott has a totally unique way of mangling the english language.

[steakbake]

Anyone watching Question Time special? Prescott has a totally unique way of mangling the english language.

He sounds like he's about to have an asthma attack. He's a fanny.

[hibsbollah]

He sounds like he's about to have an asthma attack. He's a fanny. I think he just said 'rubber guns and water pistols' when he meant to say rubber bullets and water cannon. Labours top brass must be wishing he'd croak it.

[Removed]

Just turned it on, who is the wifey in the fancy dress?

[steakbake]

Just turned it on, who is the wifey in the fancy dress?

Not sure. I just don't know. She's a colourful character but she's actually painfully boring.

[khib70]

An open letter to David Cameron's parents.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

An Open Letter to David Cameron’s Parents

August 10, 2011

Dear Mr & Mrs Cameron,

Why did you never take the time to teach your child basic morality?

As a young man, he was in a gang that regularly smashed up private property. We know that you were absent parents who left your child to be brought up by a school rather than taking responsibility for his behaviour yourselves. The fact that he became a delinquent with no sense of respect for the property of others can only reflect that fact that you are terrible, lazy human beings who failed even in teaching your children the difference between right and wrong. I can only assume that his contempt for the small business owners of Oxford is indicative of his wider values.

Even worse, your neglect led him to fall in with a bad crowd.

There’s Michael Gove, whose wet-lipped rage was palpable on Newsnight last night. This is the Michael Gove who confused one of his houses with another of his houses in order to avail himself of £7,000 of the taxpayers’ money to which he was not entitled (or £13,000, depending on which house you think was which).

Or Hazel Blears, who was interviewed in full bristling peahen mode for almost all of last night. She once forgot which house she lived in, and benefited to the tune of £18,000. At the time she said it would take her reputation years to recover. Unfortunately not.

But, of course, this is different. This is just understandable confusion over the rules of how many houses you are meant to have as an MP. This doesn’t show the naked greed of people stealing plasma tellies.

Unless you’re Gerald Kaufman, who broke parliamentary rules to get £8,000 worth of 40-inch, flat screen, Bang and Olufsen TV out of the taxpayer.

Or Ed Vaizey, who got £2,000 in antique furniture ‘delivered to the wrong address’. Which is fortunate, because had that been the address they were intended for, that would have been fraud.

Or Jeremy hunt, who broke the rules to the tune of almost £20,000 on one property and £2,000 on another. But it’s all right, because he agreed to pay half of the money back. Not the full amount, it would be absurd to expect him to pay back the entire sum that he took and to which he was not entitled. No, we’ll settle for half. And, as in any other field, what might have been considered embezzlement of £22,000 is overlooked. We know, after all, that David Cameron likes to give people second chances.

Fortunately, we have the Met Police to look after us. We’ll ignore the fact that two of its senior officers have had to resign in the last six weeks amid suspicions of widespread corruption within the force.

We’ll ignore Andy Hayman, who went for champagne dinners with those he was meant to be investigating, and then joined the company on leaving the Met.

Of course, Mr and Mrs Cameron, your son is right. There are parts of society that are not just broken, they are sick. Riddled with disease from top to bottom.

Just let me be clear about this (It’s a good phrase, Mr and Mrs Cameron, and one I looted from every sentence your son utters, just as he looted it from Tony Blair), I am not justifying or minimising in any way what has been done by the looters over the last few nights. What I am doing, however, is expressing shock and dismay that your son and his friends feel themselves in any way to be guardians of morality in this country.

Can they really, as 650 people who have shown themselves to be venal pygmies, moral dwarves at every opportunity over the last 20 years, bleat at others about ‘criminality’. Those who decided that when they broke the rules (the rules they themselves set) they, on the whole wouldn’t face the consequences of their actions?

Are they really surprised that this country’s culture is swamped in greed, in the acquisition of material things, in a lust for consumer goods of the most base kind? Really?

Let’s have a think back: cash-for-questions; Bernie Ecclestone; cash-for-access; Mandelson’s mortgage; the Hinduja passports; Blunkett’s alleged insider trading (and, by the way, when someone has had to resign in disgrace twice can we stop having them on television as a commentator, please?); the meetings on the yachts of oligarchs; the drafting of the Digital Economy Act with Lucian Grange; Byers’, Hewitt’s & Hoon’s desperation to prostitute themselves and their positions; the fact that Andrew Lansley (in charge of NHS reforms) has a wife who gives lobbying advice to the very companies hoping to benefit from the NHS reforms. And that list didn’t even take me very long to think of.

Our politicians are for sale and they do not care who knows it.

Oh yes, and then there’s the expenses thing. Widescale abuse of the very systems they designed, almost all of them grasping what they could while they remained MPs, to build their nest egg for the future at the public’s expense. They even now whine on Twitter about having their expenses claims for getting back to Parliament while much of the country is on fire subject to any examination. True public servants.

The last few days have revealed some truths, and some heartening truths. The fact that the #riotcleanup crews had organised themselves before David Cameron even made time for a public statement is heartening. The fact that local communities came together to keep their neighbourhoods safe when the police failed is heartening. The fact that there were peace vigils being organised (even as the police tried to dissuade people) is heartening.

There is hope for this country. But we must stop looking upwards for it. The politicians are the ones leading the charge into the gutter.

David Cameron was entirely right when he said: “It is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society, people allowed to think that the world owes them something, that their rights outweigh their responsibilities, and that their actions do not have consequences.”

He was more right than he knew.

And I blame the parents.

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/ (http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/)

Aye, quite funny, like a not very good Fringe show.

It's all Cameron's fault then. Let's exonerate every mindless, greedy little ****head whose idea of political protest is increasing his trainer collection and getting a better mobile phone.

Let's play the same silly, outdated classwar game that the fat brainless slogan spouter Prescott is playing on Question Time. Let's all talk the cowardly,Guardianista language of appeasement like the ludicrous woman on the same programme.

We're not talking about The Revolution here, Betty. We're talking about theft, assault, greed and murder - yes murder. We're not talking about Spring (Prague or Arab). We're talking about Kristallnacht.

[hibsbollah]

She runs a kids charity in London, shes on QT alot.

[steakbake]

Nuh. Nothing is going to get resolved on Question Time tonight.

[Removed]

She runs a kids charity in London, shes on QT alot. I watch it most weeks and don't ever remember seeing her before :confused:

[steakbake]

I watch it most weeks and don't ever remember seeing her before :confused:

Been checked for colour blindness recently?

[Removed]

Been checked for colour blindness recently? :greengrin I'm sure I would have remembered the widow twankey get up

[bighairyfaeleith]

Aye, quite funny, like a not very good Fringe show.

It's all Cameron's fault then. Let's exonerate every mindless, greedy little ****head whose idea of political protest is increasing his trainer collection and getting a better mobile phone.

Let's play the same silly, outdated classwar game that the fat brainless slogan spouter Prescott is playing on Question Time. Let's all wear our curtains on our head on the same programme and talk the cowardly,Guardianista language of appeasement like the ludicrous woman on the same programme.

We're not talking about The Revolution here, Betty. We're talking about theft, assault, greed and murder - yes murder. We're not talking about Spring (Prague or Arab). We're talking about Kristallnacht.

Take it you didn't read it then:rolleyes:

[PeeJay]

Aye, quite funny, like a not very good Fringe show.

It's all Cameron's fault then. Let's exonerate every mindless, greedy little ****head whose idea of political protest is increasing his trainer collection and getting a better mobile phone.


Either you haven't read the post or you have completely misunderstood it? It's polemical, but the points raised are worthy of consideration in a wider context, surely? No-one is exonorating anyone, but Cameron and people of similar views are seriously deluded when they talk of a "sick society" while practising collective amnesia about the wrongdoings in the upper echelons of society - pointing the finger at the "underclass" will not solve a problem that has permeated the whole of society.

Your "Kristallnacht" reference really baffles me - how do you equate the death of some 400 people coupled with 30,000 deportations to the Dachau, Buchenwald and Sachenshausen concentration camps with the looting and rioting in London, Manchester and Birmingham? Or are you just alluding to the sound of breaking glass?

[hibsbollah]

A very similar contextual blog in the Telegraph yesterday, a paper I normally avoid. Excellent stuff.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

[Expecting Rain]

Aye, quite funny, like a not very good Fringe show.

It's all Cameron's fault then. Let's exonerate every mindless, greedy little ****head whose idea of political protest is increasing his trainer collection and getting a better mobile phone.

Let's play the same silly, outdated classwar game that the fat brainless slogan spouter Prescott is playing on Question Time. Let's all wear our curtains on our head on the same programme and talk the cowardly,Guardianista language of appeasement like the ludicrous woman on the same programme.

We're not talking about The Revolution here, Betty. We're talking about theft, assault, greed and murder - yes murder. We're not talking about Spring (Prague or Arab). We're talking about Kristallnacht.

Actually thought that Camilla spoke more sense than all the rest put together, her response was thoughtful and measured.

[LiverpoolHibs]

So what, in your view, is the "political dimension" that causes, sorry, is the context (get it right, stupid), for these riots?

Please forgive my sarcastic attempts at humour. :greengrin

What's political about any of this?

I think you know very well what it is. You might not, and indeed appear not to, care about it but I'm sure you know what it is.


Aye, quite funny, like a not very good Fringe show.

It's all Cameron's fault then. Let's exonerate every mindless, greedy little ****head whose idea of political protest is increasing his trainer collection and getting a better mobile phone.

Let's play the same silly, outdated classwar game that the fat brainless slogan spouter Prescott is playing on Question Time. Let's all wear our curtains on our head on the same programme and talk the cowardly,Guardianista language of appeasement like the ludicrous woman on the same programme.

We're not talking about The Revolution here, Betty. We're talking about theft, assault, greed and murder - yes murder. We're not talking about Spring (Prague or Arab). We're talking about Kristallnacht.

No, were certainly not talking about a Prague or Arab Spring but let's not be ****ing ridiculous. Kristallnacht, really?

And there's nothing unpleasant about referring to a Middle Eastern woman wearing a turban as her 'wearing curtains on her head'...

[cabbageandribs1875]

todays evening news

http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp

A STUDENT was yesterday jailed for six months for looting a £3.50 case of water from Lidl during the violence that erupted across London this week.

a (http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp) tad extreme maybe ? certainly appears to be when compared to jim devine just serving 4 months for his looting of the public purse

[IndieHibby]

I think you know very well what it is. You might not, and indeed appear not to, care about it but I'm sure you know what it is.


I really don't. But seeing as you are being evasive:

So you think that people are looting because they are (delete as necessary) poor/protesting about spending cuts/responding naturally to police opression?

That is honestly my best guess at a "political dimension".

[LiverpoolHibs]

I really don't. But seeing as you are being evasive:

So you think that people are looting because they are (delete as necessary) poor/protesting about spending cuts/responding naturally to police opression?

That is honestly my best guess at a "political dimension".

I'm not being evasive I just didn't see the point in replying properly when you already knew the answer. The causes are manifold: rampant inequality, unemployment, daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas, alienation, the value given to acquisitiveness in our society, hopelessness and social dislocation, atrophying of anything resembling a community, gentrification and social cleansing of urban spaces and the exclusion this brings necessarily brings, racist policing, lack of housing, lack of education, a political system that excludes vast swathes of people. And much else besides.

Or, you know, just some people seeing an excuse to go tonto for a few days. Whatever.

[Bishop Hibee]

todays evening news

http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp

A STUDENT was yesterday jailed for six months for looting a £3.50 case of water from Lidl during the violence that erupted across London this week.

a (http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp) tad extreme maybe ? certainly appears to be when compared to jim devine just serving 4 months for his looting of the public purse

Some posters on here would say shooting is too good for him.

The book is going to be well and truly thrown at anyone found guilty of an offence around the rioting and to be honest they can't have any complaint.

It does make me boak however when tax dodgers e.g. der hun get to cut deals with HMRC. All tax dodgers should be made to face the full force of the law. Same with corrupt politicians.

[RyeSloan]

I'm not being evasive I just didn't see the point in replying properly when you already knew the answer. The causes are manifold: rampant inequality, unemployment, daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas, alienation, the value given to acquisitiveness in our society, hopelessness and social dislocation, atrophying of anything resembling a community, gentrification and social cleansing of urban spaces and the exclusion this brings necessarily brings, racist policing, lack of housing, lack of education, a political system that excludes vast swathes of people. And much else besides.

Or, you know, just some people seeing an excuse to go tonto for a few days. Whatever.

I actually think you last sentance sums it up nicely....your first paragraph is rather bizzare and proves the opposite of your point. If things really were that bad (I especially liked the "daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas") then there may well be organised protests and riots. These were the opposite of organised protest.

[Gatecrasher]

todays evening news

http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp

A STUDENT was yesterday jailed for six months for looting a £3.50 case of water from Lidl during the violence that erupted across London this week.

a (http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp) tad extreme maybe ? certainly appears to be when compared to jim devine just serving 4 months for his looting of the public purse

Nope not harsh at all IMO, infact i would prefer if that was the standard sentance for theives of similar nature

[lapsedhibee]

I'm not being evasive I just didn't see the point in replying properly when you already knew the answer. The causes are manifold: rampant inequality, unemployment, daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas, alienation, the value given to acquisitiveness in our society, hopelessness and social dislocation, atrophying of anything resembling a community, gentrification and social cleansing of urban spaces and the exclusion this brings necessarily brings, racist policing, lack of housing, lack of education, a political system that excludes vast swathes of people. And much else besides.

What is the humiliation, other than (presumably) very low pay? :confused:

[IndieHibby]

I'm not being evasive I just didn't see the point in replying properly when you already knew the answer. The causes are manifold: rampant inequality, unemployment, daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas, alienation, the value given to acquisitiveness in our society, hopelessness and social dislocation, atrophying of anything resembling a community, gentrification and social cleansing of urban spaces and the exclusion this brings necessarily brings, racist policing, lack of housing, lack of education, a political system that excludes vast swathes of people. And much else besides.

Or, you know, just some people seeing an excuse to go tonto for a few days. Whatever.

So where does personal responsibility fit in here? Or are the vast majority of people who are also suffering these factors, who do not riot/loot, behaving inappropriately?

Surely theft doesn't need a context?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Some posters on here would say shooting is too good for him.

The book is going to be well and truly thrown at anyone found guilty of an offence around the rioting and to be honest they can't have any complaint.

It does make me boak however when tax dodgers e.g. der hun get to cut deals with HMRC. All tax dodgers should be made to face the full force of the law. Same with corrupt politicians.


certainly agree with that part :agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Nope not harsh at all IMO, infact i would prefer if that was the standard sentance for theives of similar nature


surely there is some kind of 'sliding scale' for sentences in relation to the money involved(and yes i know theft is theft no matter what)for instance, in todays sun a highland councillor has just been given a 12 month jail term for swindling 43K

[Gatecrasher]

surely there is some kind of 'sliding scale' for sentences in relation to the money involved(and yes i know theft is theft no matter what)for instance, in todays sun a highland councillor has just been given a 12 month jail term for swindling 43K

of course, when i posted theives of a similar nature i was refering to the 5 finger discount mentality, I do think the higher the value you steal the longer you should be put away for :agree:

[khib70]

I think you know very well what it is. You might not, and indeed appear not to, care about it but I'm sure you know what it is.



No, were certainly not talking about a Prague or Arab Spring but let's not be ****ing ridiculous. Kristallnacht, really?

And there's nothing unpleasant about referring to a Middle Eastern woman wearing a turban as her 'wearing curtains on her head'...
Yes there is. Gratuitous and offensive, and I apologise to everyone for getting a bit hotheaded. I have removed the offending phrase.

And apart from being tasteless, the Kristallnacht analogy is inaccurate. Kristallnacht did have a political dimension, albeit a very unpleasant one. Apologies again

I will in future try to calm down a little before posting.

[Beefster]

What is the humiliation, other than (presumably) very low pay? :confused:

Sometimes, they have to do without a joint or play on their stolen XBoxes for eight hours straight. And they don't get Jobseeker's Allowance any longer. It's ****ing criminal.

Still, by refusing to work and avoiding that daily humilation, it gives them an opportunity to moan about all the 'foreigners coming over here and that to steal all our jobs and that, innit'. If only the immigrants would rise up against the ritual humiliation that employers want to put them though by giving them a way to earn a living.

[(((Fergus)))]

So where does personal responsibility fit in here? Or are the vast majority of people who are also suffering these factors, who do not riot/loot, behaving inappropriately?

Surely theft doesn't need a context?

Some believe you have to be rich to afford personal responsibility or have control over your own life but there are plenty who have gone from rags to riches - and from riches to rags - who prove otherwise.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Brighton rock, teddy boys, mods and rockers, flower children, skin heads, suede heads, punk rockers, football casuals, new age travellers.....

In all the garbage I've heard spoken on TV by the people responsible for running the country, at no point has anyone acknowledged that juvenile delinqency is nothing new. I suppose if they did they'd have to admit that there is nothing they can do about it.

Just as Alex said a teenager is "nothing but a malenky clockwork orange". You can't control it - if a kid sees a half open door they will kick it. Adults, on the other hand, should have learned from their past. If a kid is found with knocked off JJB trash in his house, then it is the parents who should be brought to task.

As things stand, I half expect Mick Jagger to be helicoptered in to tell the Establishment exactly what is going on.

[hibsbollah]

Rumours of more london aggro again in the last 15 mins on facebook...

[greenlex]

I despair I really do.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I actually think you last sentance sums it up nicely....your first paragraph is rather bizzare and proves the opposite of your point. If things really were that bad (I especially liked the "daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas") then there may well be organised protests and riots. These were the opposite of organised protest.

No, it isn't bizarre and it doesn't prove the opposite of my point. Good assertion, though and I'm glad you 'especially liked' some of it.

If things were really that bad for the population of South Central Los Angeles in 1992 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. If things were really that bad in Newark in 1967 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. If things were really that bad for gay people in New York in 1969 they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. Am I getting the hang of this? If things were really that bad for the immigrant youth of the Parisian banlieues in 2005 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. And in case it actually needs saying; no, I'm not suggesting that the conditions of youths in inner city London is directly analogous to that of Civil Rights-era African Americans...

No-one is suggesting that they were indicative of an organised protest but the point is that throughout history the most marginalised parts of society have often used the recourse to riot rather than organised peaceful protest. The irony, of course, is that most people on the right (as evidenced by this thread) want to shut down any debate on why this might happen through the insistence on criminality and getting all puffed-up and red in the face at the very idea of any questioning that.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Yes there is. Gratuitous and offensive, and I apologise to everyone for getting a bit hotheaded. I have removed the offending phrase.

And apart from being tasteless, the Kristallnacht analogy is inaccurate. Kristallnacht did have a political dimension, albeit a very unpleasant one. Apologies again

I will in future try to calm down a little before posting.

Fair do's, khib.


Sometimes, they have to do without a joint or play on their stolen XBoxes for eight hours straight. And they don't get Jobseeker's Allowance any longer. It's ****ing criminal.

Still, by refusing to work and avoiding that daily humilation, it gives them an opportunity to moan about all the 'foreigners coming over here and that to steal all our jobs and that, innit'. If only the immigrants would rise up against the ritual humiliation that employers want to put them though by giving them a way to earn a living.

Jesus...

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Fair do's, khib.Jesus... The 2nd coming? Doddie will be chuffed!

[LiverpoolHibs]

Ah yes, I'm glad someone asked David Starkey his braindead opinion on this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013h14z/Newsnight_12_08_2011/

Twelve minutes or so in.

"Enoch Powell was absolutely right in one sense....the whites have become black. A particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion and black and white boys and girls operate in this language together. The language which is wholly false, which is this Jamaican patois that has been intruded in England and that is why so many of us have this sense of literally living in a foreign culture."

And, of course, he says it's a matter of 'culture' not 'race'.

Owen Jones is very good. I'd also recommend his book that gets a mention.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No, it isn't bizarre and it doesn't prove the opposite of my point. Good assertion, though and I'm glad you 'especially liked' some of it.

If things were really that bad for the population of South Central Los Angeles in 1992 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. If things were really that bad in Newark in 1967 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. If things were really that bad for gay people in New York in 1969 they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. Am I getting the hang of this? If things were really that bad for the immigrant youth of the Parisian banlieues in 2005 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. And in case it actually needs saying; no, I'm not suggesting that the conditions of youths in inner city London is directly analogous to that of Civil Rights-era African Americans...

No-one is suggesting that they were indicative of an organised protest but the point is that throughout history the most marginalised parts of society have often used the recourse to riot rather than organised peaceful protest. The irony, of course, is that most people on the right (as evidenced by this thread) want to shut down any debate on why this might happen through the insistence on criminality and getting all puffed-up and red in the face at the very idea of any questioning that.t

It was opportunistic law breaking based on the safety that being part of a large crowd brings, IMO. I would say that far from being a response to feelings of marginalisation, this was more about arrogance and greed. For people (and I'm sure you aren't one of them) to compare this to the riots of 1981 is just plain wrong.

Last year Drylaw polis station came under seige from a gang of 40 or so teenagers. It's easy to protest when you are standing at the back and you think you are the last person the police will get to. Likewise when there used to be charges of groups of rival fans, very few actually ended up in fisticuffs, they had the luxury of pushing from the back.

[Betty Boop]

Actually thought that Camilla spoke more sense than all the rest put together, her response was thoughtful and measured.

Agree 100%, although I switched off after David Davies said that social housing was a privilege.

[Dashing Bob S]

Thank god for Rio Ferdinand and Wayne Rooney telling the rioters to 'calm down' and 'you know it's wrong guys.'

Great to see those inspiring role models getting down with the kids on the street and trying to street them right.






Haven't heard much from the ol slapper though.








Would love to see a panel with Kerry Katona, Jeremy Clarkson, Katie Price, David Beckham and one current vogue stand up comic pontificating on the state of Britain. Sadly, it would be absolutely indistinguishable from a panel of politicians.

[Beefster]

Jesus...

So you still can't explain how working for a living is a 'daily humiliation', even on the minimum wage?

[LiverpoolHibs]

So you still can't explain how working for a living is a 'daily humiliation', even on the minimum wage?

If I'd said that working for a living is a 'daily humiliation' then I might feel the need to explain myself. But I didn't.

[Elephant Stone]

Ah yes, I'm glad someone asked David Starkey his braindead opinion on this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013h14z/Newsnight_12_08_2011/

Twelve minutes or so in.

"Enoch Powell was absolutely right in one sense....the whites have become black. A particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion and black and white boys and girls operate in this language together. The language which is wholly false, which is this Jamaican patois that has been intruded in England and that is why so many of us have this sense of literally living in a foreign culture."

And, of course, he says it's a matter of 'culture' not 'race'.

Owen Jones is very good. I'd also recommend his book that gets a mention.

It's hard to believe that an apparently well respected historian could come out with bull piss like that. Deary me.

[Beefster]

daily humiliation in the jobs that are available to people in such areas


If I'd said that working for a living is a 'daily humiliation' then I might feel the need to explain myself. But I didn't.

If it is not working per se, what jobs are they being asked to do that results in 'daily humiliation'? I'm assuming that, as you used this as one of the many causes of the riots, the problem is widespread.

[Betty Boop]

It's hard to believe that an apparently well respected historian could come out with bull piss like that. Deary me.

A thoroughly disgusting racist individual.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If it is not working per se, what jobs are they being asked to do that results in 'daily humiliation'? I'm assuming that, as you used this as one of the many causes of the riots, the problem is widespread.

Those guys that take wages for stewarding the taxi ranks should hang their head in shame. They get paid for pointing out a taxi to members of the public - "here's one, no that's an ice cream van, there's another one, now when it stops you open the door and get in and the man will take you home". WTF is that all about?

[Killiehibbie]

Those guys that take wages for stewarding the taxi ranks should hang their head in shame. They get paid for pointing out a taxi to members of the public - "here's one, no that's an ice cream van, there's another one, now when it stops you open the door and get in and the man will take you home". WTF is that all about?These guys are very useful for stopping queue jumping as it's not always easy to get these drivers to wait their turn and if stewards weren't there fights could break out with inconsiderate, greedy, desperate drivers working off the back of the rank and setting up unofficial/illegal ranks outside pubs and clubs.

[Phil D. Rolls]

These guys are very useful for stopping queue jumping as it's not always easy to get these drivers to wait their turn and if stewards weren't there fights could break out with inconsiderate, greedy, desperate drivers working off the back of the rank and setting up unofficial/illegal ranks outside pubs and clubs.

That's the theory anyway - in practice I would say the Edinburgh ones have done b*gger all to improve a situation that was never a problem in the first place. I remember coming out of Waverley Station at midnight once, the city was dead, I walked up to the rank on the bridge, and this steward showed me a taxi, I found it really annoying. Maybe other people have found a positive side to them, but I think they have the potential to cause more trouble than they solve.

I wonder if Taxi Wardens might have been of some use in Hackney helping the looters to get home, and clearing the streets more quickly. :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

That's the theory anyway - in practice I would say the Edinburgh ones have done b*gger all to improve a situation that was never a problem in the first place. I remember coming out of Waverley Station at midnight once, the city was dead, I walked up to the rank on the bridge, and this steward showed me a taxi, I found it really annoying. Maybe other people have found a positive side to them, but I think they have the potential to cause more trouble than they solve.

I wonder if Taxi Wardens might have been of some use in Hackney helping the looters to get home, and clearing the streets more quickly. :greengrinThey had them here for a few months until the council realised the 3 of them were outnumbered 10:1 by taxis doing nothing and the money would be better spent on more dangerously high speed bumps to wreck motors.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They had them here for a few months until the council realised the 3 of them were outnumbered 10:1 by taxis doing nothing and the money would be better spent on more dangerously high speed bumps to wreck motors.

:hmmm: I think I can see a solution to the trams crisis.

[Twa Cairpets]

Ah yes, I'm glad someone asked David Starkey his braindead opinion on this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013h14z/Newsnight_12_08_2011/

Twelve minutes or so in.

"Enoch Powell was absolutely right in one sense....the whites have become black. A particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion and black and white boys and girls operate in this language together. The language which is wholly false, which is this Jamaican patois that has been intruded in England and that is why so many of us have this sense of literally living in a foreign culture."

And, of course, he says it's a matter of 'culture' not 'race'.

Owen Jones is very good. I'd also recommend his book that gets a mention.

Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that some things would likely come out of this in review that would offend liberal sensitivities and right wing views equally. I think this is one of them. I spend a fair bit of time down south. In London in particular, this change of language/accent amongst white kids is dramatic. It has become a patois - whether or not it is Jamaican I dont know - but ten years ago it was absolutely possible to tell the race/ethnicity of someone from their accent maybe 9 times out of ten or more. This is now not the case, and it is not racist to say so. Equally, there is I would think strong evidence that gangster culture (such as it is), the concept of attitude and "respect" has crossed racial boundaries and is at least a factor in the way people view their lives. The fact that it started in the black community does not mean it is racist to say that the adoption and *******isation of it by youths of all colours is a bad thing.

[hibsbollah]

Appropriating bits of Jamaican/Saaf Laandan patois into your speech is just what kids do all over britain. My kids do it. You hear it on cbbc and when products are being advertised. It has nothing to do with race, crime, or the riots.When Elvis started singing 'negro' music in the 1950s the dumb racist redneck community reacted in a similar way to David Starkey is now.

[Twa Cairpets]

Appropriating bits of Jamaican/Saaf Laandan patois into your speech is just what kids do all over britain. My kids do it. You hear it on cbbc and when products are being advertised. It has nothing to do with race, crime, or the riots.

I think the point he was trying to make, albeit clumsily, was that the attitude of "I can do what I like, innit though bruv" is bravado and front and is a relatively new phenomenon in the UK and that it is symptomatic of an underlying attitudinal shift.

Whether or not (for want of a better way to describe it) the "Gangsta" mentality is a significant factor in the riots I don't know, but I do think that the immediate cry of racism, in this instance, is shutting the mind to the possibility that it might be, on the grounds of excessive political correctness.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that some things would likely come out of this in review that would offend liberal sensitivities and right wing views equally. I think this is one of them. I spend a fair bit of time down south. In London in particular, this change of language/accent amongst white kids is dramatic. It has become a patois - whether or not it is Jamaican I dont know - but ten years ago it was absolutely possible to tell the race/ethnicity of someone from their accent maybe 9 times out of ten or more. This is now not the case, and it is not racist to say so. Equally, there is I would think strong evidence that gangster culture (such as it is), the concept of attitude and "respect" has crossed racial boundaries and is at least a factor in the way people view their lives. The fact that it started in the black community does not mean it is racist to say that the adoption and *******isation of it by youths of all colours is a bad thing.

First thing, I'm not sure why this would offend 'liberal' and right-wing views equally.

I'm can't quite work out if you're defending Starkey or not. It's not like he's just making an observation about the influences on the accent and dialect of white, inner-city London youth from a certain - or, rather, variety of - sub-culture(s); which is certainly not Jamaican patois/creole - unsurprisingly he doesn't know what he's talking about on that point.

[Twa Cairpets]

First thing, I'm not sure why this would offend 'liberal' and right-wing views equally.

I'm not suggesting it does, I'm just putting in some background on the point I'm making. Starkey has certainly offended some people on the liberal end of the spectrum.


I'm can't quite work out if you're defending Starkey or not. It's not like he's just making an observation about the influences on the accent and dialect of white, inner-city London youth from a certain - or, rather, variety of - sub-culture(s); which is certainly not Jamaican patois/creole - unsurprisingly he doesn't know what he's talking about on that point.

I'm not defending Starkey as an individual, but I do think its worth looking at what he is saying: that a culture/attitude (one of the manifestations of which is the rapidly increased prevalence of a non-indigenous accent) would appear to have had a significant impact on a lot of kids.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm not suggesting it does, I'm just putting in some background on the point I'm making. Starkey has certainly offended some people on the liberal end of the spectrum.



I'm not defending Starkey as an individual, but I do think its worth looking at what he is saying: that a culture/attitude (one of the manifestations of which is the rapidly increased prevalence of a non-indigenous accent) would appear to have had a significant impact on a lot of kids.

It is worth looking at what he's saying, yes. It's then worth immediately dismissing it and branding him a racist ****bag with nothing of any worth to say. Although it's useful as a guide to how the right will fall back on attempts to racialise crime (and further evidence of the right's attempts to code racism by talking about 'culture') when they think that they might just be able to get away with it - when it looks like battles that were won decades ago will now have to be refought.

There is nothing subtle about what he says, he explicitly states his belief that the riots are a manifestation of 'blackness' (read: atavism. Read: violence) and reinforces this with his opinion that the presence of large numbers of white youth can only be explained through their suppposed internalisation of this same 'blackness'. Not even that, in his eyes it's not just an internalisation of culture - they have literally 'become black'. David Lammy, by contrast, evinces 'whiteness' - that is, peaceability, respectability, success. Lammy is not black because he is not violent, murderous, atavistic.

It's no surprise at all that Nick Griffin's response to the incident was to weigh up whether to offer Starkey 'honourary Gold Membership [of the BNP] for his efforts'

It's one of the most astonishingly racist diatribes I've ever heard and a failure to condemn him completely (or even apologise for him - step forward Toby Young et. al) is reprehensible.

[Twa Cairpets]

It is worth looking at what he's saying, yes. It's then worth immediately dismissing it and branding him a racist ****bag with nothing of any worth to say. Although it's useful as a guide to how the right will fall back on attempts to racialise crime (and further evidence of the right's attempts to code racism by talking about 'culture') when they think that they might just be able to get away with it - when it looks like battles that were won decades ago will now have to be refought.

There is nothing subtle about what he says, he explicitly states his belief that the riots are a manifestation of 'blackness' (read: atavism. Read: violence) and reinforces this with his opinion that the presence of large numbers of white youth can only be explained through their suppposed internalisation of this same 'blackness'. Not even that, in his eyes it's not just an internalisation of culture - they have literally 'become black'. David Lammy, by contrast, evinces 'whiteness' - that is, peaceability, respectability, success. Lammy is not black because he is not violent, murderous, atavistic.

It's no surprise at all that Nick Griffin's response to the incident was to weigh up whether to offer Starkey 'honourary Gold Membership [of the BNP] for his efforts'

It's one of the most astonishingly racist diatribes I've ever heard and a failure to condemn him completely (or even apologise for him - step forward Toby Young et. al) is reprehensible.

I object slightly to be condemned as reprehensible by my failure to condemn Starkey completely. I think he puts the point over pretty badly, but I do think that what he is saying does have some validity. Why do some youths (of all colours) appear to buy in completely to the idea of Gangster culture? Why are white youths adopting it as a valid lifestyle choice - could be described as a triumph for multiculturalism? :wink: Starkey does say quite explicitly that it is this "nihilistic" element of culture, which is undoubtedly black in its roots, that is the concern. It is not racist to say so if it is explained and interpreted in this context.

I think the position of "it must be immediately and summarily dismissed because Starkey comes across as a bit of an arse" is ludicrous. Argue against him on the points he makes, not because you dont like him or because he is applauded by Nick Griffin.

[hibsbollah]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fw atch%3Fv%3DCwmrGzDotuo&v=CwmrGzDotuo&gl=GB

Richard Williams, author of the Spirit Level, on US TV....

[RyeSloan]

No, it isn't bizarre and it doesn't prove the opposite of my point. Good assertion, though and I'm glad you 'especially liked' some of it.

If things were really that bad for the population of South Central Los Angeles in 1992 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. If things were really that bad in Newark in 1967 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. If things were really that bad for gay people in New York in 1969 they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. Am I getting the hang of this? If things were really that bad for the immigrant youth of the Parisian banlieues in 2005 then they should have organised protests - their violence and rioting was just an expression of ingrained criminality and opportunism. And in case it actually needs saying; no, I'm not suggesting that the conditions of youths in inner city London is directly analogous to that of Civil Rights-era African Americans...

No-one is suggesting that they were indicative of an organised protest but the point is that throughout history the most marginalised parts of society have often used the recourse to riot rather than organised peaceful protest. The irony, of course, is that most people on the right (as evidenced by this thread) want to shut down any debate on why this might happen through the insistence on criminality and getting all puffed-up and red in the face at the very idea of any questioning that.

So you use a race riot to make a point and then say immediately say that the conditions of that riot were nothing like the conditions of youths in inner city London.

Where is the evidence that the rioters were 'the most marginalised parts of society'? A school assistant, a scaffolder, a leisure centre worker....hardly a role call of the disenfranchised is it or maybe these are the type of jobs that are causing them daily humiliation??.

No doubting there is evidence that riots can be an indicator of social ills, especially if they are perpetrated by a certain, often marginalised and oppressed, section of society...that doesn't mean that these riots were.

I don't buy the 'broken society' line. Sure there is some element to this and some of your long list of social ills may have some part to play but I'm pretty sure the main driver was lack of effective policing in the first instance and copy cat 'fun' in the second. That won't stop the debate being polarised and used for political gain but I really think it's been over analysed for what it was.

[Sir David Gray]

They were both convicted of using "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498)

To me being banged up for 2-3 months for essentially pretending to be a hard man is about right. Tuesday night spent being a tw@t, the next ten Tuesdays banged up. Wouldnt fancy it myself.

How long would FalkirkHibee justice dictate they're sent down for?

What happened last week across many parts of England was so serious that I believe anyone who has been/will be convicted in relation to last week's events should be given the maximum sentence that the law currently allows for their offence.

What they were actually convicted of was causing "intentional harassment, alarm or distress" and the maximum punishment for this offence is six months' imprisonment.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/4A

With that in mind, I would have sentenced them both to six months.


I object slightly to be condemned as reprehensible by my failure to condemn Starkey completely. I think he puts the point over pretty badly, but I do think that what he is saying does have some validity. Why do some youths (of all colours) appear to buy in completely to the idea of Gangster culture? Why are white youths adopting it as a valid lifestyle choice - could be described as a triumph for multiculturalism? :wink: Starkey does say quite explicitly that it is this "nihilistic" element of culture, which is undoubtedly black in its roots, that is the concern. It is not racist to say so if it is explained and interpreted in this context.

I think the position of "it must be immediately and summarily dismissed because Starkey comes across as a bit of an arse" is ludicrous. Argue against him on the points he makes, not because you dont like him or because he is applauded by Nick Griffin.

:agree: Agreed.

It is very easy to immediately dismiss any points that are brought up regarding race as "racist".

I think that what David Starkey was actually referring to was a gangster culture, that has its roots in places such as Jamaica, which has found its way over to England, particularly in London, and that is what he believes is at least partially responsible for last week's events.

I don't think he was trying to say that black people are the sole problem, at least I hope not, because clearly they're not. There were people of every race and skin colour who have been convicted of taking part in the violence and looting last week and I think that's what he was trying to get at.

[khib70]

It is worth looking at what he's saying, yes. It's then worth immediately dismissing it and branding him a racist ****bag with nothing of any worth to say. Although it's useful as a guide to how the right will fall back on attempts to racialise crime (and further evidence of the right's attempts to code racism by talking about 'culture') when they think that they might just be able to get away with it - when it looks like battles that were won decades ago will now have to be refought.

There is nothing subtle about what he says, he explicitly states his belief that the riots are a manifestation of 'blackness' (read: atavism. Read: violence) and reinforces this with his opinion that the presence of large numbers of white youth can only be explained through their suppposed internalisation of this same 'blackness'. Not even that, in his eyes it's not just an internalisation of culture - they have literally 'become black'. David Lammy, by contrast, evinces 'whiteness' - that is, peaceability, respectability, success. Lammy is not black because he is not violent, murderous, atavistic.

It's no surprise at all that Nick Griffin's response to the incident was to weigh up whether to offer Starkey 'honourary Gold Membership [of the BNP] for his efforts'

It's one of the most astonishingly racist diatribes I've ever heard and a failure to condemn him completely (or even apologise for him - step forward Toby Young et. al) is reprehensible.

Well, that's not hyperbolic at all - what a sheltered life you must have led.

I tend to go with TC on this one. As always on this board, when talking about race etc, you can't move in the living room for elephants.

Starkey was blustering a bit, but his core point was not about "blackness", but about gangster culture. There's a huge whiff of cultural relativism about peoples' response to what he said. If middle-class white kids had initiated a youth culture based on the gaudy trappings of material wealth, treating women like possessions, and blowing the head off any one wh "disrespects" you, the Left would be jumping up and down with incandescent rage. Because this foul culture and the "music" which underpins it is of black origin, it's "racist" to suggest it might have some relationship to the mass nihilism which the rioting and looting represents.

It's undoubtedly a fact that this culture originated in the black community. It's also indisputable that it's been adopted en masse by white and Asian youth. Hip-hop would be a minority genre if rich white kids hadn't bought millions of rap records to hack off their parents.

If, as so many have suggested, our priority should be to seek out the cause of the recent disturbances with a view to preventing a repetition, then you're not going to do it by excluding any possible cause originating in non-indigenous culture.

[DH1875]

todays evening news

http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp

A STUDENT was yesterday jailed for six months for looting a £3.50 case of water from Lidl during the violence that erupted across London this week.

a (http://www.scotsman.com/news/In-cold-light-of-day.6817234.jp) tad extreme maybe ? certainly appears to be when compared to jim devine just serving 4 months for his looting of the public purse

A tad extreme? It's a joke. One of the boy's inciting people on facebook to riot in Glasgow got hit with a years sentence and is rotting away in Polmont. Justice system here is nothing short of a farce. This kid types crap on the computer and gets the jail when drug dealers and people who go about stabbing others get hit with community service or a tag.

[hibsbollah]

A tad extreme? It's a joke. One of the boy's inciting people on facebook to riot in Glasgow got hit with a years sentence and is rotting away in Polmont. Justice system here is nothing short of a farce. This kid types crap on the computer and gets the jail when drug dealers and people who go about stabbing others get hit with community service or a tag. Careful, try to argue for any less than flogging in the streets or disembowelment for riot involvement and you'll be accused of making excuses for 'em.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Its one of the great contradictions around this debate - that seeking to explain the actions of the rioters - which is of course desireable to avoid a repeat - can only be done from side. Apparently, questioning the culture of black inner city youth, which is absolutely synonomous with gansterism (in the tupac / boyz 'n' the hood style, not the mafia style) is not allowed, because it is racist.

I think to deny this as a factor (not the factor) is ridiculous and is exactly the kind of lop-sided investigation that will not help.

[Betty Boop]

“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.”
- David Cameron,1986.
“The looting and arson last night were criminality, pure and simple. Justice will be done and the people will see the consequences for their crimes”
- David Cameron, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueBCWaWNcY&feature=player_embedded



Hypocrisy and double standards, don't you just love it !

[bighairyfaeleith]

“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.”
- David Cameron,1986.
“The looting and arson last night were criminality, pure and simple. Justice will be done and the people will see the consequences for their crimes”
- David Cameron, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueBCWaWNcY&feature=player_embedded



Hypocrisy and double standards, don't you just love it !

unfortunately the david cameron bit isn't true

http://asitc.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/david-cameron/

[Dashing Bob S]

So you use a race riot to make a point and then say immediately say that the conditions of that riot were nothing like the conditions of youths in inner city London.

Where is the evidence that the rioters were 'the most marginalised parts of society'? A school assistant, a scaffolder, a leisure centre worker....hardly a role call of the disenfranchised is it or maybe these are the type of jobs that are causing them daily humiliation??.

No doubting there is evidence that riots can be an indicator of social ills, especially if they are perpetrated by a certain, often marginalised and oppressed, section of society...that doesn't mean that these riots were.

I don't buy the 'broken society' line. Sure there is some element to this and some of your long list of social ills may have some part to play but I'm pretty sure the main driver was lack of effective policing in the first instance and copy cat 'fun' in the second. That won't stop the debate being polarised and used for political gain but I really think it's been over analysed for what it was.

Why not? Why do you think the excitement of gangsta culture appeals to youth in inner city areas, or that they even need to be effectively policed?

They need policing because they are on the streets all day, and in large numbers, looking for a buzz. Why?

Thirty years ago, there were only small pockets of them doing this sort of thing, who could be easily monitored and controlled by police. This is because the majority were working in nine-to-five jobs. They might have been dead-end, underpaid, but at least youths were kept off the streets and had the discipline that getting up in the morning to go to a job gives people. And when they came home they were too knackered to go out, or if they weren't they had money to go to a pub or nightclub, or even late night shopping instead of looting.

Now you have large swathes of young people who've been completely excluded from this sort of work, from the camaraderie and community of the workplace, and the opportunity to earn a wage and perhaps take up educational opportunities at a later date, without owing the banks a fortune for the rest of their working lives.

Sound to me very much like a broken society, or even no sort of society at all, and we all know who said that originally. In fact, it seems like those generations, and the ones in the Scottish schemes, were the sacrificial lambs, for the very rich to get astoundingly richer, and for the rest of us to buy into this aspirational and acquisitive society, where we have the privilege to owe money to banks and mortgage companies for the rest of our lives. And this sort of society is looking shakier and less tenable by the day.

[khib70]

“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.”
- David Cameron,1986.
“The looting and arson last night were criminality, pure and simple. Justice will be done and the people will see the consequences for their crimes”
- David Cameron, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueBCWaWNcY&feature=player_embedded



Hypocrisy and double standards, don't you just love it !
The first quote is made up, and Cameron never said it.

And even if it wasn't, do you really think it compares with the death of five people and the laying waste of whole neighbourhoods?

I'm not a Cameron fan, but there are better ways of having a go at him than this, surely

[hibsbollah]

A tad extreme? It's a joke. One of the boy's inciting people on facebook to riot in Glasgow got hit with a years sentence and is rotting away in Polmont. Justice system here is nothing short of a farce. This kid types crap on the computer and gets the jail when drug dealers and people who go about stabbing others get hit with community service or a tag. These two got four years, for inciting a riot which never happened. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigners-slam-very-bad-riot-sentences-2338999.html

[Hibrandenburg]

“Things got out of hand & we’d had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets.”
- David Cameron,1986.
“The looting and arson last night were criminality, pure and simple. Justice will be done and the people will see the consequences for their crimes”
- David Cameron, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueBCWaWNcY&feature=player_embedded



Hypocrisy and double standards, don't you just love it !

Love it when Urban Myths are quoted as the Gospel.

[Hibrandenburg]

These two got four years, for inciting a riot which never happened. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigners-slam-very-bad-riot-sentences-2338999.html

Really really ****ing annoys me this. Whilst those little toerags undoubtedly deserve a good slapping for what they did, the 4 year sentence is way OTT.

Have you all forgotten that it was the same ****bags who were knowingly and eagerly dipping their hands into the publics pockets around a year ago who are now demanding that an example must be made.

What was their punishment? 'Oh just give some of it back and it'll be ok'.

Now this same bunch of twats are demanding draconian sentencing for those who followed their example. ****ing hypocrits the lot of them.

[hibsbollah]

Really really ****ing annoys me this. Whilst those little toerags undoubtedly deserve a good slapping for what they did, the 4 year sentence is way OTT. Have you all forgotten that it was the same ****bags who were knowingly and eagerly dipping their hands into the publics pockets around a year ago who are now demanding that an example must be made.What was their punishment? 'Oh just give some of it back and it'll be ok'. Now this same bunch of twats are demanding draconian sentencing for those who followed their example. ****ing hypocrits the lot of them.Apparently one of them, no previous, woke with a hangover, realised what hed done and took down the posting straight away. (his defence, anyway). Pretty stupid, but deserving of 4 years? when Jim Devine MP is let out after 4 MONTHS for fiddling £8000+ of expenses and then trying to blame his secretary for it?(My Disclaimer for the usual suspects: the riots were very very bad and I am not excusing the sheer criminality™ of them for a nanosecond).

[ArabHibee]

These two got four years, for inciting a riot which never happened. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigners-slam-very-bad-riot-sentences-2338999.html A wee bit over the top imo.Similarly the woman who got 3 months (I think) for accepting a pair of shorts from her flatmate/friend who had been out looting. The lassie has 2 kids!!!

[Betty Boop]

The first quote is made up, and Cameron never said it.

And even if it wasn't, do you really think it compares with the death of five people and the laying waste of whole neighbourhoods?

I'm not a Cameron fan, but there are better ways of having a go at him than this, surely

Fair enough if the quote is incorrect, however that doesn't mean to say that him and his cronies, are exempt from criticism for their criminal behaviour, while members of the Bullingdon club. Trashing restaurants and smashing windows appears to be ok if Mummy and Daddy can afford to pay for the damage. High jinks though if you have money and status ? Some of the sentences being handed down for theft are outrageous, six months for the theft of bottled water worth £3-50, five months for accepting stolen shorts, the list goes on. Looks to me like there is a blood lust for revenge, rather than justice, with interference and pressure from politicians, the same politicians who appoint Andy Coulson to the heart of Government and bleat on about giving him a second chance. Lying cheating politicians, bankers, police and journalists, the rot starts from the top.

[Hibs Class]

Apparently one of them, no previous, woke with a hangover, realised what hed done and took down the posting straight away. (his defence, anyway). Pretty stupid, but deserving of 4 years? when Jim Devine MP is let out after 4 MONTHS for fiddling £8000+ of expenses and then trying to blame his secretary for it?(My Disclaimer for the usual suspects: the riots were very very bad and I am not excusing the sheer criminality™ of them for a nanosecond).

I'd expect that their sentences will be significantly reduced on appeal. In the meantime it maybe sends a message of the risks involved in inciting that kind of behaviour, even if it is only for a joke.

[greenlex]

A wee bit over the top imo.Similarly the woman who got 3 months (I think) for accepting a pair of shorts from her flatmate/friend who had been out looting. The lassie has 2 kids!!!

Whats that got to do with it? Three months away from them might sharpen her mind.
I have three kids. All the more reason to behave/show a good example.
I would never have done anything to embarrass my children when they were growing up. (Different no though it has to be said.:greengrin)

[bighairyfaeleith]

Whats that got to do with it? Three months away from them might sharpen her mind.
I have three kids. All the more reason to behave/show a good example.
I would never have done anything to embarrass my children when they were growing up. (Different no though it has to be said.:greengrin)

She accepted a pair of shorts and is now to be seperated from her kids for three months.

I'm all for stringing up the wee ****ers that where smashing up shops etc but this is ridiculous. We will be having to pay compensation soon for some of these ridiculous sentences.

[Hibs Class]

She accepted a pair of shorts and is now to be seperated from her kids for three months.I'm all for stringing up the wee ****ers that where smashing up shops etc but this is ridiculous. We will be having to pay compensation soon for some of these ridiculous sentences. Don't see why we would have to pay compensation? If the conviction stands and only the sentence is changed then I don't see it being reduced to anything less than time served, so no grounds for compensation.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Don't see why we would have to pay compensation? If the conviction stands and only the sentence is changed then I don't see it being reduced to anything less than time served, so no grounds for compensation.

Depends, the police have been very quick to get people to plead guilty. More will come out on that in time.

The government is putting pressure on the courts to apply heavy sentences yet the courts are supposed to be independant. If that can be proved then it could get interesting.

This is a time when our government should not be giving into mob rule.

[greenlex]

She accepted a pair of shorts and is now to be seperated from her kids for three months.I'm all for stringing up the wee ****ers that where smashing up shops etc but this is ridiculous. We will be having to pay compensation soon for some of these ridiculous sentences. I dont get the compensation bit. A judge has a scale to work within. If thats the maximum sentence then tough. He couldnt give a shoplifter a life sentence so compensation might be in order there but not in this case. 3 months for recieving/handling or whatever she us guilty of is what shes been sentenced to. Get on with it. She might not do it again.

[Sir David Gray]

These two got four years, for inciting a riot which never happened. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigners-slam-very-bad-riot-sentences-2338999.html

As far as I'm aware, they could have got 10 years for what they did, so they can probably count themselves a little fortunate.

The fact that they both pled guilty probably saved them from receiving the full punishment.

The fact that no-one else in their community was up for participating in their warped idea of fun, and therefore the riots didn't materialise, is really no defence either. They were clearly looking to incite trouble and add their town to a growing list of towns last week that were destroyed.

Now the law has caught up with them, they're trying to say that it was a joke. Try asking the thousands of people in London, Manchester and Birmingham who have had their lives destroyed by what went on last week. I'm sure it wouldn't be their idea of a joke.


Really really ****ing annoys me this. Whilst those little toerags undoubtedly deserve a good slapping for what they did, the 4 year sentence is way OTT.

Have you all forgotten that it was the same ****bags who were knowingly and eagerly dipping their hands into the publics pockets around a year ago who are now demanding that an example must be made.

What was their punishment? 'Oh just give some of it back and it'll be ok'.

Now this same bunch of twats are demanding draconian sentencing for those who followed their example. ****ing hypocrits the lot of them.

Just because the MPs got off lightly, doesn't mean that the people involved in the rioting and looting should as well. I completely agree with you regarding the MPs, by the way. Many more of them should have been arrested and convicted for what they did with their expenses and what went on was an absolute national disgrace.

However, two wrongs do not make a right and what happened last week across England was sickening. All those involved in what happened deserve all that they get.

As I said above, the 4 year sentence handed down could have been a 10 year sentence, so it doesn't seem so "draconian" after all. Maybe they'll think about their actions from now on.


A wee bit over the top imo.Similarly the woman who got 3 months (I think) for accepting a pair of shorts from her flatmate/friend who had been out looting. The lassie has 2 kids!!!

Handling stolen goods carries a maximum sentence of 14 years in prison. Getting 3 months for accepting a pair of shorts which were stolen during widespread rioting and looting is fair enough.

The fact that she has two children makes it even worse for her. What kind of example is she setting to her children when she's accepting stolen goods? Hopefully the 3 month stretch will make her reflect on her parenting skills.

I won't hold my breath though.


Whats that got to do with it? Three months away from them might sharpen her mind.
I have three kids. All the more reason to behave/show a good example.
I would never have done anything to embarrass my children when they were growing up. (Different no though it has to be said.:greengrin)

:agree: :top marks


She accepted a pair of shorts and is now to be seperated from her kids for three months.

I'm all for stringing up the wee ****ers that where smashing up shops etc but this is ridiculous. We will be having to pay compensation soon for some of these ridiculous sentences.

Why will anyone be paying out compensation? :confused:

What people have to remember is that these sentences have not been handed down off the back of some isolated incidents. If they had then I would agree that some of the punishments have been a bit "harsh", "draconian", "OTT" or whatever other adjectives have been used on this thread.

These sentences have been given to people who contributed towards serious and violent disorder on a scale that has not been witnessed in this country for several decades. The courts have a duty to reflect public opinion and there has been a lot of anger shown from the general public towards the rioters and the looters.

The reason I think that there are so many people calling these sentences harsh is because of the leniency that is usually shown by the courts towards convicted criminals.


I dont get the compensation bit. A judge has a scale to work within. If thats the maximum sentence then tough. He couldnt give a shoplifter a life sentence so compensation might be in order there but not in this case. 3 months for recieving/handling or whatever she us guilty of is what shes been sentenced to. Get on with it. She might not do it again.

Correct. If that sentence acts as a deterrent in that particular case then it's job done as far as I'm concerned.


I'd expect that their sentences will be significantly reduced on appeal. In the meantime it maybe sends a message of the risks involved in inciting that kind of behaviour, even if it is only for a joke.

And I'd expect any appeal to be thrown out immediately.

As I said earlier on, if that's their idea of a joke, they should try speaking to the hundreds/thousands of people up and down England who have had their businesses destroyed and their lives turned upside down. I'm sure they wouldn't consider it to be any kind of joke.

[Ants]

Tottenham riot again tonight.

Best comedy act of the festival so far.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Women with the shorts was released today as the original sentence was not justified.

This wont be the last time this happens.