Do ultra left wing fanatics commit attrocities too?

[Hibbyradge]

I'm sure someone will correct me, but whilst reading the horrific news from Norway this morning, it struck me that these types of crimes always seem to be committed by facist white supremists or other right wing nutters, never lefties.

I do realise that Uncle Joe wasn't exactly a pacifist, but when it comes to shooting sprees and masacres of innocent people by individuals, there does seem a link to right wing politics.

Maybe Falkirk Hibs can put me right on this. :greengrin

[Sylar]

Don't have the time to look just now, but I'm pretty sure killings/abductions by left-wing groups in India is quite commonplace, as a result of their cast system. A story which springs to mind is that Maoist insurgents sabotaged a railway, leading to the death of 150 odd civilians last year.

For Europe, the 2 which spring to mind from the off would be Stalin and Milosevic.

[PeeJay]

I'm sure someone will correct me, but whilst reading the horrific news from Norway this morning, it struck me that these types of crimes always seem to be committed by facist white supremists or other right wing nutters, never lefties.

I do realise that Uncle Joe wasn't exactly a pacifist, but when it comes to shooting sprees and masacres of innocent people by individuals, there does seem a link to right wing politics.

Maybe Falkirk Hibs can put me right on this. :greengrin

In Germany we used to have the RAF - left-wing nutters IMO!

This has a few others ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism

[Betty Boop]

Don't have the time to look just now, but I'm pretty sure killings/abductions by left-wing groups in India is quite commonplace, as a result of their cast system. A story which springs to mind is that Maoist insurgents sabotaged a railway, leading to the death of 150 odd civilians last year.

For Europe, the 2 which spring to mind from the off would be Stalin and Milosevic.

Milosevic left wing ? :confused:

[Sylar]

Milosevic left wing ? :confused:

He was leader of the Serbian Socialist Party, which describe themselves as a "union of...Left wing nationalism and democratic socialism".

Have I misunderstood something?

[(((Fergus)))]

I'm sure someone will correct me, but whilst reading the horrific news from Norway this morning, it struck me that these types of crimes always seem to be committed by facist white supremists or other right wing nutters, never lefties.

I do realise that Uncle Joe wasn't exactly a pacifist, but when it comes to shooting sprees and masacres of innocent people by individuals, there does seem a link to right wing politics.

Maybe Falkirk Hibs can put me right on this. :greengrin

Are they? When was the last one?

Here's a list of terrorist attacks in 2010. The IRA carried out more attacks than any right-wing loners. Of course, the elephant in the room is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2010

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2010)As for left-wing nutters, according to this wiki page Maoist insurgents are considered the biggest internal security threat in India, which is remarkable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism#Communist_Party_of_India_.28Maoist. 29_and_Naxalites

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm sure someone will correct me, but whilst reading the horrific news from Norway this morning, it struck me that these types of crimes always seem to be committed by facist white supremists or other right wing nutters, never lefties.

I do realise that Uncle Joe wasn't exactly a pacifist, but when it comes to shooting sprees and masacres of innocent people by individuals, there does seem a link to right wing politics.

Maybe Falkirk Hibs can put me right on this. :greengrin

Certainly they do (just as groups and organisations that are neither far-left or far-right do so). The Sendero Luminoso in Peru have carried out one of the bloodiest and indiscriminate insurgencies of the twentieth century - despite this they managed to achieve the support of a large section of Peruvian society, same with the Naxalites in India.

And if you're looking for out and out weirdness the Japanese United Red Army are hard to beat.

But you're right that there's a reason why these sort of unrooted, single atrocities will tend to come from the right.


In Germany we used to have the RAF - left-wing nutters IMO!

This has a few others ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism

The West German state was probably more nutty. And the RAF certainly never engaged in mass attacks on innocent civilians.


He was leader of the Serbian Socialist Party, which describe themselves as a "union of...Left wing nationalism and democratic socialism".

Have I misunderstood something?

That's the problem there.

[Hibrandenburg]

There is very little difference if any between the far left and right.

[LiverpoolHibs]

There is very little difference if any between the far left and right.

......is one of those insanely stupid things people say when they think they're being really clever.

[Hibrandenburg]

......is one of those insanely stupid things people say when they think they're being really clever.

Is one of those tediously repetitive practiced replies people use when they're lost for words.

Cue 15 page sermon!

[LiverpoolHibs]

Is one of those tediously repetitive practiced replies people use when they're lost for words.

No it isn't. Why would I practice for an occassion where someone says something as silly and ill-thought through as the above?


Cue 15 page sermon!

No sermon from me. You've made the fanciful claim - it's up to you to back it up. If you want to; personally I wouldn't bother trying.

[magpie1892]

......is one of those insanely stupid things people say when they think they're being really clever.

It has the advantage of being true though, e.g. an increasing number of people are describing the BNP as far-left with added racism. Reading their manifesto, it's easy to see why.

The New Statesman, home of the UK's left, certainly seems to think so:

http://www.newstatesman.com/europe/2009/04/bnp-european-party-british

[Hibrandenburg]

No it isn't. Why would I practice for an occassion where someone says something as silly and ill-thought through as the above?



No sermon from me. You've made the fanciful claim - it's up to you to back it up. If you want to; personally I wouldn't bother trying.

The OP asked if left wing extremists committed atrocities too. My answer was that they do and for the very same reason 'the cause'. Therefore my quote that there is little difference between the two. Or are you suggesting that the extreme left do not resort to violence to make their point?

[LiverpoolHibs]

It has the advantage of being true though, e.g. an increasing number of people are describing the BNP as far-left with added racism. Reading their manifesto, it's easy to see why.

No it doesn't.

People may describe the BNP as far-left with added racism but those people are wrong. The BNP has managed to articulate certain populist arguments over the economy but they have no authentic rootedness within leftist ideas or within the organised working-class. Indeed, their entire history is one of open opposition to working-class militancy including organising major scabbing operations during various strikes of the 1980s. Favouring nationalisation does not make you left-wing, complaining about globalisation does not make you left-wing. The BNP is statist and protectionist which is perfectly commensurable with being on the right of the political spectrum.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The OP asked if left wing extremists committed atrocities too. My answer was that they do and for the very same reason 'the cause'. Therefore my quote that there is little difference between the two. Or are you suggesting that the extreme left do not resort to violence to make their point?

No, I'm certainly not. Are you suggesting that people, organisations and states that are at neither end of the political spectrum do not resort to violence to make their point?

[Hibrandenburg]

No, I'm certainly not. Are you suggesting that people, organisations and states that are at neither end of the political spectrum do not resort to violence to make their point?

Where did I even hint at that?

[LiverpoolHibs]

Where did I even hint at that?

Well, because the only suggestion you've come up with as to why you think there's "very little difference, if any, between the far left and far right" is that both have - and continue to - resorted to violence to make their point. The implicit point being that other political positions do not do so.

[Hibrandenburg]

You do have an extremely annoying habit of reading things in peoples posts that are simply not there. I repeat, when it comes to using violence there is little difference between the extreme right and left. Both are prepared to kill to forward their cause.
What is it about that statement that irks you so much?

Anyway, how's your aunty Lillian getting on?

[LiverpoolHibs]

You do have an extremely annoying habit of reading things in peoples posts that are simply not there. I repeat, when it comes to using violence there is little difference between the extreme right and left. Both are prepared to kill to forward their cause.
What is it about that statement that irks you so much?

Nothing irks me about it. But as you've already admitted people, organisations and states that are not on the extreme left or the extreme right are also prepared to kill to forward their cause. So using this to back up the position that there is 'little difference, if any' between the far left and the far right (which you didn't limit to a history of violence) is completely pointless.

[Hibrandenburg]

Aye your right!

[magpie1892]

No it doesn't.

People may describe the BNP as far-left with added racism but those people are wrong. The BNP has managed to articulate certain populist arguments over the economy but they have no authentic rootedness within leftist ideas or within the organised working-class. Indeed, their entire history is one of open opposition to working-class militancy including organising major scabbing operations during various strikes of the 1980s. Favouring nationalisation does not make you left-wing, complaining about globalisation does not make you left-wing. The BNP is statist and protectionist which is perfectly commensurable with being on the right of the political spectrum.

Not according to the NS piece. People may describe the BNP as far-right but those people are wrong (hey - I like this new method of constructing an argument, just say the person holding the opposing opinion is 'wrong' - it's ****ing foolproof!). As for your assertion that: 'they have no authentic rootedness ... within the organised working-class', you clearly haven't been paying attention. The 'working class' is where the BNP is finding its core vote, after this societal strata (such as it remains) was betrayed by Labour. You think that the BNP is solely a home for disaffected Tories..?

[Hibbyradge]

I understand that left wing and right wing organisation commit attrocities.

My question was about individuals acting on their own.

I can't t remember a left wing nutter who bombed something or slaughtered dozens of innocent people.

The only folk I can remember claim to be right wing.

[Hibrandenburg]

Aye your right!

[magpie1892]

I can't t remember a left wing nutter who bombed something or slaughtered dozens of innocent people.

The only folk I can remember claim to be right wing.

There's links and suggestions in this very thread, to refresh your memory. Stalin killed millions, perhaps tens of millions of innocent people - there's one.

[Hibbyradge]

There's links and suggestions in this very thread, to refresh your memory. Stalin killed millions, perhaps tens of millions of innocent people - there's one.

Yes, I mentioned "Uncle Joe" in my OP.

I don't mean organised political leaders or groups. I know they can, and still do, terrible things.

I meant lone individuals who commit these random acts of carnage.

When was the last time a left wing supremist decided to go out and butcher a class of shcool children for example?

It always seems to be right wing fanatics

[LiverpoolHibs]

Not according to the NS piece. People may describe the BNP as far-right but those people are wrong (hey - I like this new method of constructing an argument, just say the person holding the opposing opinion is 'wrong' - it's ****ing foolproof!).

Except that's not what happened, is it? I said they were wrong and then followed the assertion with an explanation of why they were wrong (an explanation that you have decided not to challenge). Why did you struggle with that?


As for your assertion that: 'they have no authentic rootedness ... within the organised working-class', you clearly haven't been paying attention. The 'working class' is where the BNP is finding its core vote, after this societal strata (such as it remains) was betrayed by Labour.

No, I have been paying attention - it's just that you apparently don't know what 'organised working class' means.

The second bit is partially true. The BNP's core vote is amongst the lower middle-class (typically for a far-right party) and the skilled working-class (a more recent development that you allude to), certainly not amongst the working class in toto.


You think that the BNP is solely a home for disaffected Tories..?

No, I didn't say that. But the evidence suggests that the narrative of a huge swing from Labour to BNP over the last 15 years is not quite true.

[magpie1892]

Yes, I mentioned "Uncle Joe" in my OP.

I don't mean organised political leaders or groups. I know they can, and still do, terrible things.

I meant lone individuals who commit these random acts of carnage.

When was the last time a left wing supremist decided to go out and butcher a class of shcool children for example?

It always seems to be right wing fanatics

I see. I'm sure there must be some examples...

Isn't 'left wing supremacist' an oxymoron though?!

[Hibbyradge]

I see. I'm sure there must be some examples...



That's my point. I really can't think of any lone nutters slaughtering innocent folk off their own volition in the name of socialism.

[magpie1892]

Except that's not what happened, is it? I said they were wrong and then followed the assertion with an explanation of why they were wrong (an explanation that you have decided not to challenge). Why did you struggle with that?



No, I have been paying attention - it's just that you apparently don't know what 'organised working class' means.

The second bit is partially true. The BNP's core vote is amongst the lower middle-class (typically for a far-right party) and the skilled working-class (a more recent development that you allude to), certainly not amongst the working class in toto.



No, I didn't say that. But the evidence suggests that the narrative of a huge swing from Labour to BNP over the last 15 years is not quite true.

But Labour's core vote is among the lower middle class and the skilled working class also. So Labour is far-right?

As you admit, the BNP vote comes from LMC and SWC - but not the WC in toto. Phew, that's a relief!

Not sure where I used the phrase 'huge swing' - maybe you can quote me on that.

Nope, I'm confident in my position. Some people say the BNP is far-right, but those people are wrong.

[LiverpoolHibs]

But Labour's core vote is among the lower middle class and the skilled working class also. So Labour is far-right?

As you admit, the BNP vote comes from LMC and SWC - but not the WC in toto. Phew, that's a relief!

Not sure where I used the phrase 'huge swing' - maybe you can quote me on that.

Nope, I'm confident in my position. Some people say the BNP is far-right, but those people are wrong.

Are you alright?

[Beefster]

Yes, I mentioned "Uncle Joe" in my OP.

I don't mean organised political leaders or groups. I know they can, and still do, terrible things.

I meant lone individuals who commit these random acts of carnage.

When was the last time a left wing supremist decided to go out and butcher a class of shcool children for example?

It always seems to be right wing fanatics

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2002/03/28/0000129506

http://www.varight.com/news/killer-professor-a-harvard-lefty-with-obama-infatuation/

Most rampage killings are carried out by people with no political affiliation (or that's not the reason for the rampage) though.

[steakbake]

Yes - of course left wing fanatics commit atrocities:

The Red Brigades
Nov 17th movement
Shining Path
Maoist Guerillas in Nepal
Naxalites...
The FARC guerillas etc....

[Sir David Gray]

My honest take on it is this;

I think that an atrocity such as the one carried out in Norway, where it's one individual who carries out the whole thing themselves, do tend to be perpetrated by people with extreme right wing views, mainly because, terribly misguided though it is, these people tend to be of the belief that they are avenging things that occur in their society which are against God.

People of an extreme left wing persuasion tend not to have a particularly strong belief in God so that kind of motivation to carry out such acts doesn't really apply to them.

That's not to say that those on the far left haven't been responsible for terrible acts of violence because they have. Governments with communist sympathies have been guilty of some of the most shocking acts of brutality that the world has ever seen. The current governments in China and North Korea for a start. Also, in the past, the Khmer Rouge government in Cambodia in the 1970s was one of the most wicked regimes in the recent history of the world and also the Soviet Union as well, which people have already touched on earlier in this thread.

There are also numerous militant groups with far left tendencies who have been involved in terrible acts of violence.

Some examples;

Communist Party of India (Maoist)
Various strands of the IRA
FARC
ETA

As I say, if we're talking here about lone individuals who plan and execute their attack all on their own, I would probably say that most of these people would be from the far right however politically motivated violence cannot be pinned down exclusively to either the right or the left.

That's the way I would look at this situation although I could be completely wrong.

[magpie1892]

Are you alright?

I'm grand. Two stories in the papers this morning then flight to Reykjavik for a week. Three hours late, sadly, which made me miss KR v. Breidablik (had an interview lined up as well - boo) but that aside, it's all good. Still light here...

You?

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'm grand. Two stories in the papers this morning then flight to Reykjavik for a week. Three hours late, sadly, which made me miss KR v. Breidablik (had an interview lined up as well - boo) but that aside, it's all good. Still light here...

You?

Oh, much the same. Two slices of toast this morning then off on the number 22 bus to work for the day. Which sadly will make me miss the conclusion of the first Test (had a celebratory can of lager lined up as well - boo) but that aside, etc. etc.....

[IWasThere2016]

I'm sure someone will correct me, but whilst reading the horrific news from Norway this morning, it struck me that these types of crimes always seem to be committed by facist white supremists or other right wing nutters, never lefties.

I do realise that Uncle Joe wasn't exactly a pacifist, but when it comes to shooting sprees and masacres of innocent people by individuals, there does seem a link to right wing politics.

Maybe Falkirk Hibs can put me right on this. :greengrin

I crossed a Hatton led picket line in Liverpool once and was duly grogged on. Repeatedly. Nice Lefties.

[Dashing Bob S]

My honest take on it is this;

I think that an atrocity such as the one carried out in Norway, where it's one individual who carries out the whole thing themselves, do tend to be perpetrated by people with extreme right wing views, mainly because, terribly misguided though it is, these people tend to be of the belief that they are avenging things that occur in their society which are against God.

People of an extreme left wing persuasion tend not to have a particularly strong belief in God so that kind of motivation to carry out such acts doesn't really apply to them.

That's not to say that those on the far left haven't been responsible for terrible acts of violence because they have. Governments with communist sympathies have been guilty of some of the most shocking acts of brutality that the world has ever seen. The current governments in China and North Korea for a start. Also, in the past, the Khmer Rouge government in Cambodia in the 1970s was one of the most wicked regimes in the recent history of the world and also the Soviet Union as well, which people have already touched on earlier in this thread.

There are also numerous militant groups with far left tendencies who have been involved in terrible acts of violence.

Some examples;

Communist Party of India (Maoist)
Various strands of the IRA
FARC
ETA

As I say, if we're talking here about lone individuals who plan and execute their attack all on their own, I would probably say that most of these people would be from the far right however politically motivated violence cannot be pinned down exclusively to either the right or the left.

That's the way I would look at this situation although I could be completely wrong.

I tend to agree with that. Because left-wingers are generally more rational, rather than faith-based, when they hear disturbing voices in their head, they tend to think, 'I'm having mental health issues, I really should go to the doctor and get some medication to sort it out.'

Right-wingers, on the other hand, tend to believe that god is in the business of selecting weirdo, loser nonentities to execute innocent civilians in some grand plan nobody quite understands, but then he does move in mysterious ways, and ours is not to question why, etc, etc.

[Hibrandenburg]

I tend to agree with that. Because left-wingers are generally more rational, rather than faith-based, when they hear disturbing voices in their head, they tend to think, 'I'm having mental health issues, I really should go to the doctor and get some medication to sort it out.'

Right-wingers, on the other hand, tend to believe that god is in the business of selecting weirdo, loser nonentities to execute innocent civilians in some grand plan nobody quite understands, but then he does move in mysterious ways, and ours is not to question why, etc, etc.

Experts in this field may scoff at this explanation Bob, but I for one find it rather catching. :agree:

[(((Fergus)))]

I tend to agree with that. Because left-wingers are generally more rational, rather than faith-based, when they hear disturbing voices in their head, they tend to think, 'I'm having mental health issues, I really should go to the doctor and get some medication to sort it out.'

Right-wingers, on the other hand, tend to believe that god is in the business of selecting weirdo, loser nonentities to execute innocent civilians in some grand plan nobody quite understands, but then he does move in mysterious ways, and ours is not to question why, etc, etc.

The actual difference is:

Right-wing nuts think they hear God.

Left wing nuts think they are God.

[Hibbyradge]

I crossed a Hatton led picket line in Liverpool once and was duly grogged on. Repeatedly. Nice Lefties.

Are you seriously comparing the murder of dozens of innocent people with being spat on by a couple of strikers in the 80's?

[da-robster]

I would say that right wing fanatics do commit more atrocities ,mainly because social conservatism is heavily related to blame (muslims stealing our jobs) whereas left wing social liberalism is more about tolerance, also because social conservatism is more related to religion as DBS said. Of course an overwhelming majority of social conservatives are nothing like Brevik but I would say that the whole belief system is more likely to cause people to do this sort of thing.

[Dashing Bob S]

The actual difference is:

Right-wing nuts think they hear God.

Left wing nuts think they are God.

:faf: Funny because it's true! :top marks

[hibsbollah]

Theres just more of a death cult element with the extreme right. Extreme left wingers, by contrast, just want to be loved.

Saying that, I am a card-carrying left winger, and when im gardening will often fill a pot with salt and drop the snails and slugs in there and watch them burn to death.

Us pinko liberals can be psychos too.

[khib70]

Theres just more of a death cult element with the extreme right. Extreme left wingers, by contrast, just want to be loved.

Saying that, I am a card-carrying left winger, and when im gardening will often fill a pot with salt and drop the snails and slugs in there and watch them burn to death.

Us pinko liberals can be psychos too.
In general, you're definitely right. But don't forget Jonestown. Serious death cult resulting in 900 suicides and several murders, run and instigated by a left winger, Jim Jones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

And your horrendous acts of molluscide have not gone unnoticed. Keep an eye on these slime trails. (If you're lucky it might just be George Galloway)

[Dashing Bob S]

In general, you're definitely right. But don't forget Jonestown. Serious death cult resulting in 900 suicides and several murders, run and instigated by a left winger, Jim Jones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

And your horrendous acts of molluscide have not gone unnoticed. Keep an eye on these slime trails. (If you're lucky it might just be George Galloway)

Ah, Jim. If only more of us on the far left showed his mettle. Then there would be more pussyfooting around on welfare cheats, the dependency culture, immigration, law and order and the Islamisation of Britain.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Just an initial thought, but i wonder if there is something inherent in the respective 'ideologies'?

i.e. right-wingism is a bit more about the individual taking on 'the machine' , whereas left-wingism is a bit more about individuals comign together in a group to become 'the machine'.

Unfortunately, the results tend to be the same.

Interesting discussion though - i would suggest that left-wing groups tend to be more sympathetically viewed by more people than right, because of their ideology and the 'noble' causes - do you guys think thats true?

[Leicester Fan]

Interesting discussion though - i would suggest that left-wing groups tend to be more sympathetically viewed by more people than right, because of their ideology and the 'noble' causes - do you guys think thats true?

Depends what you class as a noble cause.

I'd say that left wing groups are more sympathetically viewed by the majority of the media because the media class tends to be left of centre.

PS Anyone who thinks that the BNP doesn't draw the majority of it's support from the working class wants to stop reading the Guardian and get out a bit more.

[steakbake]

Left wingers tend to be painfully self-righteous. Right wingers tend to be painfully self-indulgent.

It's never made sense to me to see the solutions to the human condition from only one dogmatic perspective. It's probably why I'm not a fan of organised religion - lots of similarities.

[Dashing Bob S]

Left wingers tend to be painfully self-righteous. Right wingers tend to be painfully self-indulgent.

It's never made sense to me to see the solutions to the human condition from only one dogmatic perspective. It's probably why I'm not a fan of organised religion - lots of similarities.

I must be a real political moderate then - I'm both.

[Hibs Class]

I must be a real political moderate then - I'm both.

Me too, but then I know I've every right to be.

[Hibrandenburg]

I must be a real political moderate then - I'm both.

You have the right to your opinion but if I don't like it I'll kill you.