Realism or negativity?

[Beefster]

Calderwood's interview today. I think it's realism but it's not going to sell any late season tickets. I'd also question why we're in this position just before the season starts, considering how long ago Hibs (and Calderwood) knew what this summer would be all about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14248540.stm

[Mikey]

He can't really be accused of telling lies. He just says true things that people don't want to hear :greengrin

[SRHibs]

Either way, it's not good enough.


"We will need a real big improvement, we'll need to grow, as I can't see us starting the season in the type of form that will take us there," he said.

How are comments like these going to instil confidence within the squad? It's through his own doing that we're in this position right now. How many months have passed yet we've still not hired a new AM yet? The squad is also threadbare despite him saying the funds that are available are sufficient - enough for him to build a good squad with.

He's had the entire summer to shape his own squad, yet instead of doing this, he's refused to commit to signings because of the constant speculation.

Not interested in his excuses.

[BEEJ]

He is 'managing expectations'.

Sub-text: "Expect another 10th place finish in the SPL this season and you might be pleasantly surprised."

[Beefster]

He can't really be accused of telling lies. He just says true things that people don't want to hear :greengrin

Yeah, he might be too honest for the good of the club though!

[WhileTheChief..]

Fair play to him, at least he's not burying his head in the sand!

I actually like the fact that he can see what we are all seeing instead of coming out with the 'everything is fine and we are raring to go' that managers usually come out with.

On the flip side, it just confirms what most of us knew in that the season is going to be grim.

[smurf]

He can't really be accused of telling lies. He just says true things that people don't want to hear :greengrin

Don't think he says the things the board will want to hear either!

[yekimevol]

i think all he is saying is that he does not expect us to finish 4th in the league. i would imagine the target is 6th this season for caldo.

then after the youngsters in the team have had a season, we would have gathers as a squad and then next season we can progress again.

[Ell_Chrisso]

Would explain why players including Paul Hanlon feel that training is an absolute shambles over the pre-season

[Sir David Gray]

It is a ridiculous position to be in.

Calderwood is basically warning the fans to be prepared to write off the first half of this coming season, which suggests to me that he is not overly hopeful of adding to the squad too much over the next 6 weeks before the summer transfer window closes. Whilst I have grave concern about the quality of our squad, what kind of message does that send out to the players we have here at the moment when, two days before our first competitive match, our manager is coming out with stuff like that?

Calderwood has known, almost since he arrived at the club nine months ago now, that he had a massive job on his hands to rebuild the club. He has had enough time to recognise where our weaknesses are and where we need to strengthen. It is therefore complete negligence, in my book, that we will almost certainly now go into Sunday's match with no recognised right back, one fit striker and a squad which is nowhere near an acceptable level of strength or ability.

If, as Calderwood seems to be subliminally suggesting, we could be heading for a season similar to last year, this season could very well be my final one as a season ticket holder, for the foreseeable future, as there is no way that I have any appetite to put up with the garbage we have been subjected to over the past 18 months.

[yekimevol]

Either way, it's not good enough.



How are comments like these going to instil confidence within the squad? It's through his own doing that we're in this position right now. How many months have passed yet we've still not hired a new AM yet? The squad is also threadbare despite him saying the funds that are available are sufficient - enough for him to build a good squad with.

He's had the entire summer to shape his own squad, yet instead of doing this, he's refused to commit to signings because of the constant speculation.

Not interested in his excuses.

i think he spent half of his budget last january, on palsson, thornhill, sodjie, scott and the rest on this summer o'connor, sproule and ohanlon.

[SRHibs]

i think he spent half of his budget last january, on palsson, thornhill, sodjie, scott and the rest on this summer o'connor, sproule and ohanlon.

I refuse to believe that's the sum of the entire budget. If so, that's pathetic...seriously.

[hibee92]

Would explain why players including Paul Hanlon feel that training is an absolute shambles over the pre-season

did i miss this?

[offshorehibby]

Would explain why players including Paul Hanlon feel that training is an absolute shambles over the pre-season

Where has Paul Hanlon said training has been a complete shambles.

[Future17]

I don't like Calderwood. I think he's bad for the team and bad for the club. He's got a job to do and he's not doing it. The "realism" will probably come when he's sacked as Hibernian manager and appointed to a coaching position with an English club side immediately after - a move which I believe he is trying to engineer already.

Having said all that, on the re-building front, his hands are somewhat tied by the early SPL kick-off compared to the start of the season down south. A lot of clubs aren't yet in the position we are in terms of adjusting and balancing their squads, therefore it may not be clear who is available and who is not. 99% of Calderwood's contacts will be down south.

However, if we're still in this position by the time the window closes, we will be flirting with the relegation places come January.

[BEEJ]

i think he spent half of his budget last january, on palsson, thornhill, sodjie, scott and the rest on this summer o'connor, sproule and ohanlon.
So with no fewer than 22 players having exited the club since January, that would suggest a significantly reduced player budget this season compared to last.

[Saorsa]

I don't like Calderwood. I think he's bad for the team and bad for the club. He's got a job to do and he's not doing it. The "realism" will probably come when he's sacked as Hibernian manager and appointed to a coaching position with an English club side immediately after - a move which I believe he is trying to engineer already.
Having said all that, on the re-building front, his hands are somewhat tied by the early SPL kick-off compared to the start of the season down south. A lot of clubs aren't yet in the position we are in terms of adjusting and balancing their squads, therefore it may not be clear who is available and who is not. 99% of Calderwood's contacts will be down south.

However, if we're still in this position by the time the window closes, we will be flirting with the relegation places come January.:top marks

[marinello59]

Would explain why players including Paul Hanlon feel that training is an absolute shambles over the pre-season

Do you have a solid source for that?

[Ell_Chrisso]

did i miss this? Yep, most people wouldnt know. But trust me, iv heard it over the phone from the horses mouth when he was speaking to an ex-player i know that he is friendly with.

[Saorsa]

Do you have a solid source for that?That's the sort of thing IMO that sounds like it could only have come from the player. :hmmm:

[marinello59]

Yep, most people wouldnt know. But trust me, iv heard it over the phone from the horses mouth when he was speaking to an ex-player i know that he is friendly with.

Speaker phone?

[marinello59]

That's the sort of thing IMO that sounds like it could only have come from the player. :hmmm:

That's me convinced then. :greengrin

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Last year he was expecting doubters in the short term but not in the long term. It is a fair question to ask when does the short term end? I accept that this is a work-in-progress and that we may need to wait for our time to come again. This season, if we finish anywhere better than last year, it will be an improvement. No demanding or even expecting top six from me at least.

[Ell_Chrisso]

Speaker phone? Just a general catch up call. Caught bits n bobs of what they were saying but i only asked my mate what he was laughing at once it was said training had been sh*t. It wasnt in the most serious tone iv heard in my life, but make of it what you wish..

[sesoim]

Whatever great coaching skills CC supposedly has, he proves over and over again what an awful motivator he is. His personality is a BIG problem.

[Kato]

Don't think he says the things the board will want to hear either!

True. They like managers who waffle more tripe than Stanley Unwin.

[marinello59]

Just a general catch up call. Caught bits n bobs of what they were saying but i only asked my mate what he was laughing at once it was said training had been sh*t. It wasnt in the most serious tone iv heard in my life, but make of it what you wish..

Cheers. :thumbsup:

[Kato]

Just a general catch up call. Caught bits n bobs of what they were saying but i only asked my mate what he was laughing at once it was said training had been sh*t. It wasnt in the most serious tone iv heard in my life, but make of it what you wish..

So he didn't say "that training is an absolute shambles over the pre-season". ??

[Baldy Foghorn]

He can't really be accused of telling lies. He just says true things that people don't want to hear :greengrin

It might be true but appalling all the same.....Board and CC are all culpable for this shambles.....Not acceptable

[Ell_Chrisso]

Whatever great coaching skills CC supposedly has, he proves over and over again what an awful motivator he is. His personality is a BIG problem.
So he didn't say "that training is an absolute shambles over the pre-season". ?? Yes the word shambles was said. In a laughing joke way. Is this significant? Im just saying i never made too much of it as its pretty obvious to me that Calderwood is half arsed as to wether he stays at Hibs or not... So now hearing these more comments, maybe its true that his training sessions or methods are coming across in the same mood?

[Ell_Chrisso]

*Sorry sesoim didnt mean to include your quote

[YehButNoBut]

Sounds to me like CC is doing his best to get Hibs to sack him. :confused: :rolleyes:

[SRHibs]

Yes the word shambles was said. In a laughing joke way. Is this significant? Im just saying i never made too much of it as its pretty obvious to me that Calderwood is half arsed as to wether he stays at Hibs or not... So now hearing these more comments, maybe its true that his training sessions or methods are coming across in the same mood?

Well, if it was said in a 'laughing/joke' way, how does that indicate that Hanlon definitely FEELS that training is an 'absolute shambles'?

Admittedly, I'm not Calderwood's biggest fan at the moment, but I think you're just creating another issue where there is none.

[Ell_Chrisso]

Well, if it was said in a 'laughing/joke' way, how does that indicate that Hanlon definitely FEELS that training is an 'absolute shambles'?Admittedly, I'm not Calderwood's biggest fan at the moment, but I think you're just creating another issue where there is none. Not creating an issue mate. Calderwoods brought all the worries on himself. By not doing more to change his squad. Yes the board are maybe not backing him up with enough cash but i reckon we havent seen any1 coming in recently as he is awaiting to see whether he gets his move or not. If Hanlon feels it seriously enough, im still not convinced he would voice it to the club anyway.

[Wotherspiniesta]

Listen, maybe the players are not that great. This has got to be the least positive I've felt about heading into a new season that I've felt in years.

But is this really the type of chat we want coming from the man in charge before the season even kicks off? I'd rather he was trying to fire the players up, telling them to aim for the moon and see if they can reach they sky.

Isn't that what everyone wants from their boss when they turn up for work? Encouragment? praise?

We have some talented youngsters in our squad, and because of limitations in the transfer market (wether that be people not wanting to come to the club, the club being hard pressed for cash or whatever) then these youngsters are probably going to be featuring a lot more than they would normally be. Is this the kind of manager we want to try kick start their careers at Hibernian?

Under Mowbray we had a good bunch of youngsters aswell, but to my memory, Mowbray was ecnouraging towards them, took them for all their flaws and built a brilliant team with a core of young players. We played with flair, imagination, and took the rough with the smooth. If Calderwood wants to tell these players they're not good enough for Europe, the players will most likely go into their shell. We'll see more mistakes, more goals gifted to the opposition and few positive chances created. The crowd will start getting on the players back and we'll gradually get worse as the season goes on.

I, for one am totally fed up with the negativity emunating from Hibs at the minute and a lot of that IMHO is down to Colin Calderwood.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Did he not say a 1% improvement in all areas would make a huge difference?

No it won't!

[Baldy Foghorn]

Listen, maybe the players are not that great. This has got to be the least positive I've felt about heading into a new season that I've felt in years.

But is this really the type of chat we want coming from the man in charge before the season even kicks off? I'd rather he was trying to fire the players up, telling them to aim for the moon and see if they can reach they sky.

Isn't that what everyone wants from their boss when they turn up for work? Encouragment? praise?

We have some talented youngsters in our squad, and because of limitations in the transfer market (wether that be people not wanting to come to the club, the club being hard pressed for cash or whatever) then these youngsters are probably going to be featuring a lot more than they would normally be. Is this the kind of manager we want to try kick start their careers at Hibernian?

Under Mowbray we had a good bunch of youngsters aswell, but to my memory, Mowbray was ecnouraging towards them, took them for all their flaws and built a brilliant team with a core of young players. We played with flair, imagination, and took the rough with the smooth. If Calderwood wants to tell these players they're not good enough for Europe, the players will most likely go into their shell. We'll see more mistakes, more goals gifted to the opposition and few positive chances created. The crowd will start getting on the players back and we'll gradually get worse as the season goes on.

I, for one am totally fed up with the negativity emunating from Hibs at the minute and a lot of that IMHO is down to Colin Calderwood.

:top marks:top marks

[BEEJ]

Listen, maybe the players are not that great. This has got to be the least positive I've felt about heading into a new season that I've felt in years.

But is this really the type of chat we want coming from the man in charge before the season even kicks off? I'd rather he was trying to fire the players up, telling them to aim for the moon and see if they can reach they sky.

Isn't that what everyone wants from their boss when they turn up for work? Encouragment? praise?

We have some talented youngsters in our squad, and because of limitations in the transfer market (wether that be people not wanting to come to the club, the club being hard pressed for cash or whatever) then these youngsters are probably going to be featuring a lot more than they would normally be. Is this the kind of manager we want to try kick start their careers at Hibernian?
CC is doing at least two things here. He is:


trying to protect the younger players who he realises are going to feature much more this year than in recent seasons;
making it abundantly clear to the supporters that he is not entirely happy with the calibre of the squad at this stage in proceedings, for whatever reason.


He looks and sounds less and less like someone who is comfortable with the job he is being asked to perform.

[Craig_in_Prague]

It seems day by day now it's worse being a Hibs fan. .... And this is even before the goals start going in at the wrong end.

[blackpoolhibs]

CC is doing at least two things here. He is:


trying to protect the younger players who he realises are going to feature much more this year than in recent seasons;
making it abundantly clear to the supporters that he is not entirely happy with the calibre of the squad at this stage in proceedings, for whatever reason.


He looks and sounds less and less like someone who is comfortable with the job he is being asked to perform.

Or a 3rd, trying to get Petrie to let him go for less money? In other words taking the piss, nobody is that stupid when giving answers like he has and continues to give.

[coco22]

Whatever great coaching skills CC supposedly has, he proves over and over again what an awful motivator he is. His personality is a BIG problem. ...and therein lies the reason he makes a great assistant manager. also, on the interview, some things are surely left unsaid despite the fact we all know we are understrength. the words of a desperate man preparing an already downbeat group of fans for a poor start to the season?

[Hainan Hibs]

I would admire the honesty in a normal situation, but what annoys me is the fact that he was fannying about comparing bags of sweeties for the entire pre-season, and now tells us the squad is not ready.

He's not fit to manage a club like Hibernian. Get the man to ****.

[Craig_in_Prague]

We pay around 4th highest in wages. We have 3rd best facilities. One of the best youth set ups. Had a whole load of players punted / left and a chance to re build and shape ourselves.

So why is it 2 days before new season, we have the most optimistic fans saying 6th is best we can achieve and the more pessismistic thinking relegation is possible. Clown of a manager who doesn't want to be here and more regular 'official' statements to try appease us.

After the complete tosh of the last 2-3 years, we should all be sitting here excited and almost expectant of a pretty decent season ahead. Hibs punching their weight? nah.......

Good old hibees :aok:

[CRAZYHIBBY]

Calderwood's interview today. I think it's realism but it's not going to sell any late season tickets. I'd also question why we're in this position just before the season starts, considering how long ago Hibs (and Calderwood) knew what this summer would be all about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14248540.stm

We're in this position because we dont have enough fans buying tickets.....myself included...... money has been wasted on the stadium, imo we should have built a team that was capable of becoming euro regulars and going far in cup competitions then built up enough cash for the new stand.......lets face it its not done us any favours so far has it......thoughts??

[RickyS]

We're in this position because we dont have enough fans buying tickets.....myself included...... money has been wasted on the stadium, imo we should have built a team that was capable of becoming euro regulars and going far in cup competitions then built up enough cash for the new stand.......lets face it its not done us any favours so far has it......thoughts??

its a whole new debate but i said at the time i would rather have sat in that old shed than watch some of the stuff
we have been and that CC is preparing us for this season

[SanFranHibs]

Certain points stand out to me and I'm sure to every other Hibs fan, even though we may disagree on the importance of these points and possibly even the interpretation.

1. Our manager has just informed us that we are NOT good enough to finish in the top 4.

2. Our manager has just informed us that not only are we not good enough to finish in the top 4 but we are a long way short of being good enough.We will need a real big improvement, we'll need to grow, as I can't see us starting the season in the type of form that will take us there,"

3. Our manager has just informed us that his team/squad is not yet ready. ("If we hit the ground running, fantastic, but as we sit here reality has got to override the support".)

4. Our manager has just informed us that we had better be ready for multiple 'periods' of bad performances/results. "But we will have to ride out one or two storms in the first half of the season really.". I can see no other way to interpret this because a storm cannot be the occasional bad performance or result. Unless he's just praying for a postponement of the opening game, due to inclement weather.

I hope I have not taken any of these statements out of context because CC then went on to state "We are as ready as we can be." although he is not certain that we will 'hit the ground running'. In my view if a team hits the ground running it implies it is at least as well prepared as it can be, even though it may not be good enough. It should at least be as good as it can be!

CC then goes on to tell us "we are a wee bit under strength". not too consistent with "needing real big improvement".

Also, if one allows that we will improve and grow then so might ALL the other teams in the SPL. We alone are not given that privilege, unless CC is implying that we we will be so bad we will have more room to grow !

This cannot, in my opinion, give anyone, including his players much confidence because what he has just informed us of will be read by them.

It is hard to know whether we should appreciate his honesty and have a giggle at the thought of RP squirming in his office hearing it or reading the transcript. Not likely to induce a last minute rush for season tickets.

:confused:

[Baldy Foghorn]

I would admire the honesty in a normal situation, but what annoys me is the fact that he was fannying about comparing bags of sweeties for the entire pre-season, and now tells us the squad is not ready.

He's not fit to manage a club like Hibernian. Get the man to ****.

Exactly, and we keep hearing how nothing has imacted on our pre-season:confused:

[Future17]

We're in this position because we dont have enough fans buying tickets.....myself included...... money has been wasted on the stadium, imo we should have built a team that was capable of becoming euro regulars and going far in cup competitions then built up enough cash for the new stand.......lets face it its not done us any favours so far has it......thoughts??

I sort of agree with you, but I think your post is back to front.

For all his faults, I'm fairly sure Rod Petrie knows the direct relationship between new (preferrably good) signings, good performances, entertainment and season ticket sales. It's a simple "value for money" requirement that drives the custom of every business that's ever existed - including football clubs.

No matter what price you are paying for your ticket, you only do so in the expectation of getting some enjoyment from buying it in the first place.

There simply HAS to be money available at the club for more signings. The size of the squad has been massively reduced since this time last season. I don't have the exact numbers to hand, but let's underestimate and say it's smaller by 10 players and that they commanded an average wage of £1,000 per week. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out we're £10k p/w better off on that front. There's the outside chance that players who have come in are earning higher salaries than those who left but it's unlikely and Riordan was reportedly the highest paid player at the club.

Let's also say we've sold 3,500 fewer season tickets this season compared to last at an average price of £300. That's £900,000 in lost revenue. As we are unlikely to have a capacity crowd for any home game this season, that figure is essentially non-recoverable.

So, over the course of the season/financial year, the £10k p/w saving equals approximately £520,000 compared to £900,000 lost revenue. A loss of almost £400,000 in one year.

Surely any business then looks at the reasons for reduced sales and identifies, based on the very handy market indicator that is the league table, that the product they are offering is of poor quality. Step 2 is to improve the product on offer. There are several ways to attempt this in football but, given that the business has apparently refused to change the manager despite a large offer of compensation, it surely then looks to the playing squad.

A new signing commanding £2k p/w (double the average of the players who have left) costs the club approximately £104,000 over the course of the season/financial year. To cover that amount, the business only has to sell 350 season tickets at an average of £300.

To use a very unscientific method, the thread on DotNet which asks "Why Have You Not Renewed?" carries a poll in which 10% of respondents stated their main reason as "Lack of signings/signing policy". Apply that 10% to the missing 3,500 season ticket holders and what do we get? The magic 350 renewals.

Chances are the new signings will improve the team. They certainly won't make it worse as if they're not playing well they won't play at all. That should, in turn, result in an improvement on the poor "Results/Performance over the last few seasons" - almost 20% of the vote on the "Why Have You Not Renewed?" poll. Translated into season ticket sales - another 700 of our 3,500 lost souls rescued from the wilderness.

The better performances see us moving up the table. All of a sudden the mood is more positive around the club. We're talking about possibly challenging for European qualification if not better. We might even get a good cup run and the extra revenue that brings. There's a new ambition about the club - satisfying approximately 10% of poll respondees and another 350 renewals.

I know some people would say it's not that simple and they would be right, it isn't. But that's the principle. We were terrible under Hughes before he went and we were terrible under Calderwood when he arrived. However, when he brought in some new blood in January (a young full-back, a tough-tackling midfielder, a signing from Liverpool, a big, powerful goalscorer) the fans reacted, attendances improved (albeit briefly) and results improved (albeit briefly).

It's simple football psychology. Part of the close season is new signings. They grab your interest and make you believe "you know what? This season might be the one". Bottom line - new signings help to sell season tickets.

The short-termism which now exists in football means that players are signing shorter contracts - clubs can take more of a risk with their signing policy. The long-termism which has to be promoted is in building a fan base which comes back year on year. It doesn't take much - just a little bit of vision.

[basehibby]

Calderwood's interview today. I think it's realism but it's not going to sell any late season tickets. I'd also question why we're in this position just before the season starts, considering how long ago Hibs (and Calderwood) knew what this summer would be all about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14248540.stm

:agree: His comments are realistic but he's as much at fault as anybody for the team not being ready since he didn't act to cease all the speculation over the summer. Landing Sheridan would have made a big difference IMO and unless Agogo is signed and cleared in the next day or so we will be left woefully short up front for the first game vs Celtic. That's not the only weakness of course but it's certainly the most glaring.

Pished off and bemused as I am at being gazzumped by St Johnstome, I'm trying to keep a sense of perspective - there is still a fair bit of the window to go and a few quality signings in the right areas could make a big difference. I'll watch with interest to see what recruits are brought in, but wouldn't it have been nice to be ready to go for the start of the season just for once :rolleyes:

[Hamish]

:agree: His comments are realistic but he's as much at fault as anybody for the team not being ready since he didn't act to cease all the speculation over the summer. Landing Sheridan would have made a big difference IMO and unless Agogo is signed and cleared in the next day or so we will be left woefully short up front for the first game vs Celtic. That's not the only weakness of course but it's certainly the most glaring.

Pished off and bemused as I am at being gazzumped by St Johnstome, I'm trying to keep a sense of perspective - there is still a fair bit of the window to go and a few quality signings in the right areas could make a big difference. I'll watch with interest to see what recruits are brought in, but wouldn't it have been nice to be ready to go for the start of the season just for once :rolleyes:


We are all disappointed that more players haven't been added to the squad, but I think the ridiculously early start to the SPL coupled with the fact that his targets appear to be mainly English based and a lot of English teams only returned to training in the last fortnight, hasn't helped him. I'm not making excuses for him, merely pointing this out.