PDA

View Full Version : After Last Seasons Debacle Credit To The Support



smurf
20-07-2011, 09:52 AM
Who have forked out the extra money asked for season tickets.

If the rumoured 7000 is correct its obviously well down on last season (which was also down on the previous).

However, let's remember our traditional season ticket numbers. In our 136 year history recent numbers of season ticket sales have been record numbers.

Our support stood up to be counted.

Let's remember that in amongst the talk of running down our 'support'.

I hope anyone who can, who hasn't, will join us in renewing. I understand and share the frustrations of those who can but thus far won't.

However, let's remember its us the support who are the constant.

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 09:57 AM
Who have forked out the extra money asked for season tickets.

If the rumoured 7000 is correct its obviously well down on last season (which was also down on the previous).

However, let's remember our traditional season ticket numbers. In our 136 year history recent numbers of season ticket sales have been record numbers.

Our support stood up to be counted.

Let's remember that in amongst the talk of running down our 'support'.

I hope anyone who can, who hasn't, will join us in renewing. I understand and share the frustrations of those who can but thus far won't.

However, let's remember its us the support who are the constant.

Yep, I have to say I'm delighted with the 7000 figure if true, I was honestly thinking that we'd be lucky to get more than 5K given last year and the feelings of many on here ranging from apathy to outright anger.

Lucius Apuleius
20-07-2011, 09:58 AM
Who have forked out the extra money asked for season tickets.

If the rumoured 7000 is correct its obviously well down on last season (which was also down on the previous).

However, let's remember our traditional season ticket numbers. In our 136 year history recent numbers of season ticket sales have been record numbers.

Our support stood up to be counted.

Let's remember that in amongst the talk of running down our 'support'.

I hope anyone who can, who hasn't, will join us in renewing. I understand and share the frustrations of those who can but thus far won't.

However, let's remember its us the support who are the constant.

Smurf, most positive post I have seen from you for ages. Well done old chap.

smurf
20-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Smurf, most positive post I have seen from you for ages. Well done old chap.

I feel that our support is coming under increasing criticism which I feel is entirely unjustified.

blackpoolhibs
20-07-2011, 10:30 AM
We'd have had 10,000 if it was not for you undermining the club.:wink:

Steve20
20-07-2011, 10:33 AM
I feel that our support is coming under increasing criticism which I feel is entirely unjustified.

Spot on. The last people that should be criticised for the state of the team is the support.

shagpile
20-07-2011, 10:35 AM
I feel that our support is coming under increasing criticism which I feel is entirely unjustified.

Criticism from ?

smurf
20-07-2011, 10:42 AM
Criticism from ?

There are increasing posts on here pointing out that supporters are not supporting the club as they should.

.Sean.
20-07-2011, 10:54 AM
What was our highest? Circa 12K?I've got mine, but I could probably think of 400 ways I'd rather have spent my £400. I was blinded by sheer optimism when I purchased mine, I was under the illussion we would progress under a commited nanager who would clear the deadwood and strengthen the squad where required. How wrong I was!

Bishop Hibee
20-07-2011, 11:00 AM
1200 ST holders in 1986/7 when I got my first one. Credit to all those who fork out money for ST's to support the club.

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 11:06 AM
There are increasing posts on here pointing out that supporters are not supporting the club as they should.

As an ST, I haven't criticised anyone for not going back as I can understand why they wouldn't and would struggle to convince anyone why they should.

Regardless, it can be frustrating hearing supporters on here saying that they don't want to support Hibs anymore - which, regardless of the reason (finances aside), is what they're saying.

Gatecrasher
20-07-2011, 11:14 AM
There are increasing posts on here pointing out that supporters are not supporting the club as they should. There was word of one of the young players getting a hard time from some fans in a friendly, that shouldn't be the way to support the club IMO.I do realise that the vast majority of the support, do so in any way they can but there are some right ********s in our support. Like most clubs have to be fair

Cropley10
20-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Yep, I have to say I'm delighted with the 7000 figure if true, I was honestly thinking that we'd be lucky to get more than 5K given last year and the feelings of many on here ranging from apathy to outright anger.

I suppose if you expected 5,000 then you would be 'delighted' with only 7,000.

I think it shows a worrying level of apathy from our support and an even more worrying reduction in income for the Club. A downward spiral if you like. It will be interesting to see how the Board respond to these challenges.

Franck is God
20-07-2011, 11:23 AM
The only criticism for parts of the Hibs support have come from other fans as far as i can see.

I personally have been critical of those fans who like to make excuses for their non attendance, we all know what they are so there's no point in creating a list.

I renewed my ST because I there is nothing I'd rather do at the weekend than see the Hibees and fortunately the club gave me an affordable way to do it.

marinello59
20-07-2011, 11:25 AM
There are increasing posts on here pointing out that supporters are not supporting the club as they should.

So now you are getting to your real point. Are you going to expand on that?

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 11:42 AM
I suppose if you expected 5,000 then you would be 'delighted' with only 7,000.

I think it shows a worrying level of apathy from our support and an even more worrying reduction in income for the Club. A downward spiral if you like. It will be interesting to see how the Board respond to these challenges.

I find it easier to expect the worst and hope for the best when it comes to supporting Hibs. With the negativity on this place I sometimes wonder whether people can even manage the latter.

There is a worrying level of apathy, but I'm rather pleased that it's not as worrying as I thought it might be, meaning that it's a lot easier to recover from if we have a much more positive season this year.

I would be surprised if Aberdeen or Dundee Utd have more ST holders than us (if the 7000 figure is correct), so we should still be 4th in terms of sales in the SPL.

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 11:50 AM
I feel that our support is coming under increasing criticism which I feel is entirely unjustified.No, we're tae blame for everything that has gone wrong :agree:

silverhibee
20-07-2011, 11:52 AM
I feel that our support is coming under increasing criticism which I feel is entirely unjustified.



Who from Smurf.

smurf
20-07-2011, 11:59 AM
So now you are getting to your real point. Are you going to expand on that?

Eh? The real point is in the OP. End. Of.

smurf
20-07-2011, 12:03 PM
Who from Smurf.

Nobody in particular but wouldn't be difficult to find posts moaning about our support are not buying season tickets etc.

Mikey
20-07-2011, 12:04 PM
There's an excellent post on the PM board that uses the 7000 figure as a guesstimate.

If the drop in season ticket holders is correct then the club has been unable to bring in an additional 5 players at £1700p/w.

If you haven't bought your season ticket yet have a think about the impact that's having. You have until Saturday :wink:

ahibby
20-07-2011, 12:30 PM
There's an excellent post on the PM board that uses the 7000 figure as a guesstimate.

If the drop in season ticket holders is correct then the club has been unable to bring in an additional 5 players at £1700p/w.

If you haven't bought your season ticket yet have a think about the impact that's having. You have until Saturday :wink:

Except they had that amount last season and still finished only tenth. Following your logic we will be relegated next season:wink:

Cabbage East
20-07-2011, 12:33 PM
There's an excellent post on the PM board that uses the 7000 figure as a guesstimate.

If the drop in season ticket holders is correct then the club has been unable to bring in an additional 5 players at £1700p/w.

If you haven't bought your season ticket yet have a think about the impact that's having. You have until Saturday :wink:

Are you on the club's payroll?

Beefster
20-07-2011, 12:34 PM
There's an excellent post on the PM board that uses the 7000 figure as a guesstimate.

If the drop in season ticket holders is correct then the club has been unable to bring in an additional 5 players at £1700p/w.

If you haven't bought your season ticket yet have a think about the impact that's having. You have until Saturday :wink:

The club has used all the wages released by the players leaving at the end of the season?

If not, maybe Rodders and co could have a think about the impact that not using that money is having on ST numbers. They have until the end of August. :wink:

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 12:36 PM
Are you on the club's payroll?

Ironic how quite a few posters respond to attempts by people to generate support by giving it the "are you on the payroll?" line, yet so many on here believe that the club don't do enough to generate support.

marinello59
20-07-2011, 12:39 PM
Are you on the club's payroll?

Don't we all want the club to sell as many season tickets as possible? :confused:

hibs0666
20-07-2011, 12:47 PM
I feel that our support is coming under increasing criticism which I feel is entirely unjustified.

At least we've identified something for you to be positive about. :wink:

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 12:51 PM
Don't we all want the club to sell as many season tickets as possible? :confused:

This place gets a bit funny at this time of year, this time last year I was mocked by a poster for buying my season ticket (for a team who had finished 4th and qualified for Europe) and urged to "hit the club in the pocket, it's the only language they understand".

I can understand why people get angry, I get angry about Hibs as much as anyone, but when that anger is misdirected and people are actively discouraged to support Hibs, it's a bit much to say the least.

flash
20-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Are you on the club's payroll?

Are you a hibby?

smurf
20-07-2011, 01:27 PM
At least we've identified something for you to be positive about. :wink:

I praised the club for their excellent iniatives to encourage season ticket members to get back lapsed season ticket members. Of which I got two...

And last summer I praised the club for introducing the spread payments on the season tickets something I was calling for for many years.

If something deserves praise it should be. If something deserves criticism it deserves honest criticism.

marinello59
20-07-2011, 01:49 PM
I praised the club for their excellent iniatives to encourage season ticket members to get back lapsed season ticket members. Of which I got two...

And last summer I praised the club for introducing the spread payments on the season tickets something I was calling for for many years.



Bloody happy clapper.:greengrin

Cropley10
20-07-2011, 02:00 PM
There's an excellent post on the PM board that uses the 7000 figure as a guesstimate.

If the drop in season ticket holders is correct then the club has been unable to bring in an additional 5 players at £1700p/w.

If you haven't bought your season ticket yet have a think about the impact that's having. You have until Saturday :wink:

Putting aside everything else - the sheer additional capacity we now have means unless you attend every, single game, there is very, very little point in getting a ST.

Peevemor
20-07-2011, 02:03 PM
Putting aside everything else - the sheer additional capacity we now have means unless you attend every, single game, there is very, very little point in getting a ST.

Unless you want the same seat every week - next to your mates for example.

Mikey
20-07-2011, 02:12 PM
Putting aside everything else - the sheer additional capacity we now have means unless you attend every, single game, there is very, very little point in getting a ST.

Apart from the missing 5 players.

Mikey
20-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Are you on the club's payroll?

No, I'm a Hibs fan

Are you?

marinello59
20-07-2011, 02:15 PM
Putting aside everything else - the sheer additional capacity we now have means unless you attend every, single game, there is very, very little point in getting a ST.

I am not so sure i agree with that.
Same seat every week, you get to know those sitting around you which I kinda like. If you have a seat you are particularly happy with it's hard to give it up
No hassle with having to stand in ticket office queues either before or after games.
No booking fees or postal fees every other week if you can't go to the ticket office in person.
Priority purchase period for Tynecastle tickets, cup matches etc.
Entry to Behind the Goals.

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 02:19 PM
I am not so sure i agree with that.
Same seat every week, you get to know those sitting around you which I kinda like. If you have a seat you are particularly happy with it's hard to give it up
No hassle with having to stand in ticket office queues either before or after games.
No booking fees or postal fees every other week if you can't go to the ticket office in person.
Priority purchase period for Tynecastle tickets, cup matches etc.
Entry to Behind the Goals.Not sure that's a lot tae convince people tae part with 400 quid up front particularly considering what they got for their 400 quid the last time they did.

marinello59
20-07-2011, 02:20 PM
Not sure that's a lot tae convince people tae part with 400 quid up front particularly considering what they got for their 400 quid the last time they did.

It convinced me.

Billy Whizz
20-07-2011, 02:22 PM
How many season ticket holders did we have last season?

Beefster
20-07-2011, 02:22 PM
Apart from the missing 5 players.

I'll ask again. Have all the available monies for playing staff wages been used, despite releasing in excess of 10 players and only signing 3 to date?

If not, then it's unlikely that another 5 players would have been signed by now if ST numbers had remained static. Your point, IMHO, is just another reason [with little justification] to beat up some Hibs fans.

smurf
20-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Putting aside everything else - the sheer additional capacity we now have means unless you attend every, single game, there is very, very little point in getting a ST.

I disagree. And I'm consistent on this.

The more season ticket holders that we have with the up front financial injection it gives our club the better.

If we can afford to do it I see it as our duty. It confirms IMHO our supporter membership if you like...

If we have around 10,000 then we really ought to be very competitive within the SPL.

That of course is in part the problem....

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 02:24 PM
It convinced me.Aye but it's no convinced (if the supposed figures are accurate) about 2000 others and every season like the last there will be more needing convinced that it's a good idea tae part with that amount of cash..

marinello59
20-07-2011, 02:28 PM
I disagree. And I'm consistent on this.

The more season ticket holders that we have with the up front financial injection it gives our club the better.

If we can afford to do it I see it as our duty. It confirms IMHO our supporter membership if you like...

If we have around 10,000 then we really ought to be very competitive within the SPL.

That of course is in part the problem....

I think that is one of the more important intangible benefits of having a season ticket. Often overlooked when reasons for getting one are trotted out.

marinello59
20-07-2011, 02:29 PM
Aye but it's no convinced (if the supposed figures are accurate) about 2000 others and every season like the last there will be more needing convinced that it's a good idea tae part with that amount of cash..

You got one.:greengrin

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 02:47 PM
Not sure that's a lot tae convince people tae part with 400 quid up front particularly considering what they got for their 400 quid the last time they did.

I am rather confused as to where you stand - I know from your posts that you have a season ticket, and from another thread that you buy strips year on year even if you're not keen on them so that the club gets the money; all of that is hugely commendable and excellent support in my book.

Yet despite this you keep arguing that there are no good reasons to get a season ticket and continually argue against what people consider to be good reasons. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from happy at the moment and have stated many times that I can understand why people wouldn't want to come and would have a hard time convincing anyone to buy one - but at the same time, I would never actively encourage anyone from buying one. I'm not sure that that is what you're doing, but your arguments against reasons for getting an ST seem a bit counter productive - just an observation.

smurf
20-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I think that is one of the more important intangible benefits of having a season ticket. Often overlooked when reasons for getting one are trotted out.

Yip. Collecting my season ticket I burst open the envelope to see my name on the card. It feels good. I often wonder if folk would feel good seeing their name on their seat... I would!

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 02:49 PM
I disagree. And I'm consistent on this.

The more season ticket holders that we have with the up front financial injection it gives our club the better.

If we can afford to do it I see it as our duty. It confirms IMHO our supporter membership if you like...

If we have around 10,000 then we really ought to be very competitive within the SPL.

That of course is in part the problem....

:agree:

There are many other things that I could spend £400 on, and would probably guarantee me much more of a good time - but I couldn't not renew if I could afford it.

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 02:54 PM
You got one.:greengrinAye, I did and have had for a long time but different people have different levels of what they will put up with, for how long and how much they will keep paying for it, for some that point has clearly been reached and the longer it goes on the worse it will get.

marinello59
20-07-2011, 02:59 PM
Aye, I did and have had for a long time but different people have different levels of what they will put up with, for how long and how much they will keep paying for it, for some that point has clearly been reached and the longer it goes on the worse it will get.

Yes, i realise that people have different levels of what they put up with and have different priorities. All I have done on this thread is give reasons why I feel purchasing a season ticket is still a good idea. I don't really understand why you seem to have a problem with that J.:confused:

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 03:03 PM
I am rather confused as to where you stand - I know from your posts that you have a season ticket, and from another thread that you buy strips year on year even if you're not keen on them so that the club gets the money; all of that is hugely commendable and excellent support in my book.

Yet despite this you keep arguing that there are no good reasons to get a season ticket and continually argue against what people consider to be good reasons. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from happy at the moment and have stated many times that I can understand why people wouldn't want to come and would have a hard time convincing anyone to buy one - but at the same time, I would never actively encourage anyone from buying one. I'm not sure that that is what you're doing, but your arguments against reasons for getting an ST seem a bit counter productive - just an observation.Aye but it's no me that needs convincing yet :wink: As I said in my reply tae M59, different people will put up with different things, some will be convinced by those things he mentioned as he is, others less so and those things may not be enough tae keep those folk paying up. I'm still going and still paying up, it's no me they need tae worry about yet.

freddie m
20-07-2011, 03:07 PM
The club has used all the wages released by the players leaving at the end of the season?

If not, maybe Rodders and co could have a think about the impact that not using that money is having on ST numbers. They have until the end of August. :wink:
While that is true of a reduction in players salaries due to out of contract players. It should also be noted the club will not have reinvested all the freed players wages. This will be as a result of reduced turnover due to reduced ticket sales.
Apathy harms all involved with the club nt only the board.
Glory glory
:flag::flag::flag:

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 03:08 PM
Aye but it's no me that needs convincing yet :wink: As I said in my reply tae M59, different people will put up with different things, some will be convinced by those things he mentioned as he is, others less so and those things may not be enough tae keep those folk paying up. I'm still going and still paying up, it's no me they need tae worry about yet.

I appreciate that there are varying levels of what people will put up with, but I'm still a bit confused as to why you argue against reasons that have been good enough for you to get one.

Regardless, we appreciate your support :greengrin

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 03:10 PM
Yes, i realise that people have different levels of what they put up with and have different priorities. All I have done on this thread is give reasons why I feel purchasing a season ticket is still a good idea. I don't really understand why you seem to have a problem with that J.:confused:and that's fine, if those thing have convinced you that's great, All I'm saying (maybe no very well) is those things have not and will not convince many others tae part with the cash being asked for. Sorry if it came across otherwise. It's no you or me (yet :wink: :greengrin ) that Hibs need tae concerned about.

Mon Dieu4
20-07-2011, 03:10 PM
I appreciate that there are varying levels of what people will put up with, but I'm still a bit confused as to why you argue against reasons that have been good enough for you to get one.

Regardless, we appreciate your support :greengrin

It's called an addiction, I have it too as no matter how bad we are I still need my fix :faf:

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 03:12 PM
It's called an addiction, I have it too as no matter how bad we are I still need my fix :faf:

I'll be in that boat as well!

marinello59
20-07-2011, 03:12 PM
and that's fine, if those thing have convinced you that's great, All I'm saying (maybe no very well) is those things have not and will not convince many others tae part with the cash being asked for. Sorry if it came across otherwise. It's no you or me (yet :wink: :greengrin ) that Hibs need tae concerned about.

Ok I understand now. I think. :greengrin

Saorsa
20-07-2011, 03:19 PM
I appreciate that there are varying levels of what people will put up with, but I'm still a bit confused as to why you argue against reasons that have been good enough for you to get one.

Regardless, we appreciate your support :greengrinMaybe I'm not saying it very well (in fact maybe I'm making a complete erse of it :greengrin ) I'm not trying tae argue against the reason I bought one (otherwise I wouldnae have bought one :greengrin ) I'm suggesting that my reasons for buying or M59's reasons for buying one are clearly not enough tae convince many others tae buy one now. Think I'll stop now before I confuse things further.

Dashing Bob S
20-07-2011, 03:20 PM
I haven't renewed this year - partly to do with being away on business a lot, and partly to do with last season being such a depressing waste of time. If I discern some genuine progress, I'll probably get a half-season ticket at Christmas.

I think a lot of fans feel the same. The current regime is very much on trial. Let's face it, on a purely results basis, if you're impressed by CC, you have to be a little crazy, even before this Forest/Birmingham nonsense, which has undermined his credibility further. People who defend him seem to produce the argument that he isn't Yogi (not an argument at all) or that he's said to be a 'good coach' or 'talks well to the media', just as Yogi was meant to have 'passion' and be 'one of us.'

Well, sorry, Yogi and CC, but football is a results and performance driven game, and if we were getting some classy football, I'd put up with poor results for a while, but we're a long way from either where I've been sitting.

As I said, they're on trial, though that can be a good thing as a well a bad one. So c'mon CC, step up and start convincing us severe doubters (and it's no longer the short-term, its the mid-term, with two windows under your belt) to get with the project. If you do, you can expect anything up to another 3,000 plus half ST applications at Christmas.

But if we're lurching into November as a seamless continuation of last season, Rod, buy that one-way rail ticket to Midlands, stick it in his top pocket and drive him to the Waverley, or if you're too busy, I'll do it myself.

Stevie Reid
20-07-2011, 03:21 PM
Maybe I'm not saying it very well (in fact maybe I'm making a complete erse of it :greengrin ) I'm not trying tae argue against the reason I bought one (otherwise I wouldnae have bought one :greengrin ) I'm suggesting that my reasons for buying or M59's reasons for buying one are clearly not enough tae convince many others tae buy one now. Think I'll stop now before I confuse things further.

Fair dos, I'm with you now! :aok:

Speedway
20-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Yip. Collecting my season ticket I burst open the envelope to see my name on the card. It feels good. I often wonder if folk would feel good seeing their name on their seat... I would!

I wonder if Fish would like seeing his surname on a seat?

matty_f
20-07-2011, 04:49 PM
I agree with Smurf that the 7000 (if that's the right figure) season ticket holders do indeed deserve praise for sticking with the team after the disaster of last season. I disagree with his and everyone else's assertion that the fans are being given the blame for the mess.

That said, the reality is that if we sold more season tickets it would make a direct improvement on CC's budget for players.

The reality is we would have a better chance of watching better football next season if a few thousand more people helped to fund it through season ticket purchases. They're not getting nothing in return, they get the benefits listed already on the thread, as well as helping the club out.

I don't think anyone could reasonably argue those points.

I know that people have been turned off by the past few seasons, and that the woeful season last year is a big factor in the numbers being down. However, and I've said this many, many times, the way to improve the team is to back them. Nobody else is going to do it.

Beefster asked already on the thread if all available money freed up from releasing players has been spent on the team. IMHO, it's likely that there was no (or very little) money actually freed up to use.

Here's why I think that - at the last AGM (or at the release of the accounts, I don't remember which) the board said they needed to manage the wages/turnover ration down from the (IIRC) 68% that it had risen to. I believe the recommended ration is 60%, so we were a fair bit over that.

The board said they wanted to manage that not through reducing the budget, but by increasing income and reducing other costs. I think the objective to increase income has been massively hit by poor on the field performances. This meant less revenue from prize money, no cup runs, lower gate receipts (no second visit from one OF team, for instance, as well as lower home attendances).

This, added to what is being reported to be a significant reduction in the number of season tickets bought, will have a huge impact on the income/expenditure ratios. With this in mind, any savings that we made by freeing up wages will likely be absorbed in running costs etc so that either the ratio drops to 60% by cutting the wages budget, or remains static or increases due to falling income.

There is clearly some money available (we've tabled offers to Sheridan and Agogo, so there is or has been money there), however there will not be (IMHO) a like for like replacement in wage spend from the players leaving last season.

Removed
20-07-2011, 05:42 PM
I am not so sure i agree with that. Same seat every week, you get to know those sitting around you which I kinda like. If you have a seat you are particularly happy with it's hard to give it upNo hassle with having to stand in ticket office queues either before or after games.No booking fees or postal fees every other week if you can't go to the ticket office in person.Priority purchase period for Tynecastle tickets, cup matches etc.Entry to Behind the Goals.Agreed with all that till the last point :bitchy:Not had a 'how ***** is BTG' thread for ages though :thumbsup:

Cropley10
20-07-2011, 05:51 PM
I agree with Smurf that the 7000 (if that's the right figure) season ticket holders do indeed deserve praise for sticking with the team after the disaster of last season. I disagree with his and everyone else's assertion that the fans are being given the blame for the mess.

That said, the reality is that if we sold more season tickets it would make a direct improvement on CC's budget for players.

The reality is we would have a better chance of watching better football next season if a few thousand more people helped to fund it through season ticket purchases. They're not getting nothing in return, they get the benefits listed already on the thread, as well as helping the club out.

I don't think anyone could reasonably argue those points.

I know that people have been turned off by the past few seasons, and that the woeful season last year is a big factor in the numbers being down. However, and I've said this many, many times, the way to improve the team is to back them. Nobody else is going to do it.

Beefster asked already on the thread if all available money freed up from releasing players has been spent on the team. IMHO, it's likely that there was no (or very little) money actually freed up to use.

Here's why I think that - at the last AGM (or at the release of the accounts, I don't remember which) the board said they needed to manage the wages/turnover ration down from the (IIRC) 68% that it had risen to. I believe the recommended ration is 60%, so we were a fair bit over that.

The board said they wanted to manage that not through reducing the budget, but by increasing income and reducing other costs. I think the objective to increase income has been massively hit by poor on the field performances. This meant less revenue from prize money, no cup runs, lower gate receipts (no second visit from one OF team, for instance, as well as lower home attendances).

This, added to what is being reported to be a significant reduction in the number of season tickets bought, will have a huge impact on the income/expenditure ratios. With this in mind, any savings that we made by freeing up wages will likely be absorbed in running costs etc so that either the ratio drops to 60% by cutting the wages budget, or remains static or increases due to falling income.

There is clearly some money available (we've tabled offers to Sheridan and Agogo, so there is or has been money there), however there will not be (IMHO) a like for like replacement in wage spend from the players leaving last season.

All fair points of course.

I wonder how many other fans forums there were people are quite happy to accept that the wages:turnover ratio is too high and on the back of falling turnover we'll have to accept even less money being spent on players, meaning less quality and so on.

Personally and I may be in a minority here, I'd love to read on here or in the morning paper that we'd made a couple of interesting signings, perhaps dare I say it - pushed the boat out, not 'broken the bank' you understand, just spent a little extra.

The current plan/way of working isn't IMHO working, we're on a gentle down-ward spiral. People need a reason to come back, or to come at all, and ultimately that's about watching decent, competitive football. We've waited for EM, the East, the debt being reduced, the 16 players released, because we, or certainly I, was of the understanding that we'd be be able to invest more, not less, in the team.

Now I'm being led to believe we're on a race to the bottom - declining income, meaning declining wages - and the only way out of it is for more people to SUABC....? Not what I was expecting and not much of a plan. Tough times ahead maybe.

snooky
20-07-2011, 06:01 PM
Yip. Collecting my season ticket I burst open the envelope to see my name on the card. It feels good. I often wonder if folk would feel good seeing their name on their seat... I would!

I hear members of the Noone family have bought 10000 ST's just to see their names on the seats. ;-)

oldbutdim
20-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Yip. Collecting my season ticket I burst open the envelope to see my name on the card. It feels good. I often wonder if folk would feel good seeing their name on their seat... I would!

How about changing your name to Armitage Shanks?

I'm sure there's some **** puns in there somewhere..........

matty_f
20-07-2011, 06:45 PM
All fair points of course.

I wonder how many other fans forums there were people are quite happy to accept that the wages:turnover ratio is too high and on the back of falling turnover we'll have to accept even less money being spent on players, meaning less quality and so on.

Personally and I may be in a minority here, I'd love to read on here or in the morning paper that we'd made a couple of interesting signings, perhaps dare I say it - pushed the boat out, not 'broken the bank' you understand, just spent a little extra.

The current plan/way of working isn't IMHO working, we're on a gentle down-ward spiral. People need a reason to come back, or to come at all, and ultimately that's about watching decent, competitive football. We've waited for EM, the East, the debt being reduced, the 16 players released, because we, or certainly I, was of the understanding that we'd be be able to invest more, not less, in the team.

Now I'm being led to believe we're on a race to the bottom - declining income, meaning declining wages - and the only way out of it is for more people to SUABC....? Not what I was expecting and not much of a plan. Tough times ahead maybe.

I'd love to see us going that extra bit to get players in, really I would. Believe it or not, I support Hibs to see us play good football, with good players, and to have success. That's the dream, for me. I care not a jot who the chairman is, who the owner is, so long as I believe they are acting in the best interests of the football club. For me, the football team is what I love.

However, that comes with a caveat that I understand why we can't spend that bit extra. I understand that when we miss out on a player it's because someone else has more money than us to offer him, and not because we have been tight-fisted with our offer. I understand that the work that goes into signing a player isn't always successful and that sometimes, perhaps even often, we won't get our first choice targets. I suspect that is the same for clubs the world over.

The current plan hasn't worked for the last couple of seasons while the club has been grown (in terms of the training centre and stadium.) Does that mean the plan won't ever worked? I wouldn't think so. IMHO, it means we're ideally placed to sustain good times when they come around again.

I'd be very interested to hear your definition of 'a little extra' - how much is that? What difference do you think it would make?

I think the easiest example (and perhaps the laziest one, but it is appropriate nonetheless) is to look at Hearts. They have not spent 'a little extra' over what we have. They've spent more than us on a whole different level. They got third last season after scraping top 6 the season before. They won something like three times since the turn of the year.

So, how much is 'a little extra', and what difference do you think it would make?

WhileTheChief..
20-07-2011, 07:47 PM
I'd love to see us going that extra bit to get players in, really I would. Believe it or not, I support Hibs to see us play good football, with good players, and to have success. That's the dream, for me. I care not a jot who the chairman is, who the owner is, so long as I believe they are acting in the best interests of the football club. For me, the football team is what I love.

However, that comes with a caveat that I understand why we can't spend that bit extra. I understand that when we miss out on a player it's because someone else has more money than us to offer him, and not because we have been tight-fisted with our offer. I understand that the work that goes into signing a player isn't always successful and that sometimes, perhaps even often, we won't get our first choice targets. I suspect that is the same for clubs the world over.

The current plan hasn't worked for the last couple of seasons while the club has been grown (in terms of the training centre and stadium.) Does that mean the plan won't ever worked? I wouldn't think so. IMHO, it means we're ideally placed to sustain good times when they come around again.

I'd be very interested to hear your definition of 'a little extra' - how much is that? What difference do you think it would make?

I think the easiest example (and perhaps the laziest one, but it is appropriate nonetheless) is to look at Hearts. They have not spent 'a little extra' over what we have. They've spent more than us on a whole different level. They got third last season after scraping top 6 the season before. They won something like three times since the turn of the year.

So, how much is 'a little extra', and what difference do you think it would make?


Top post mate. Kinda sums everything up nicely for how I feel too. We are where we are but I have no doubts that the next 10 years of being a Hibby will be so much better than the last 10 years precisely because of what we have done off the field recently.

I also think that it shows the OP is entirely correct in saying that the Hibs support deserves a huge amount of credit for sticking with the club the last few years.

Jonnyboy
20-07-2011, 08:43 PM
I haven't renewed this year - partly to do with being away on business a lot, and partly to do with last season being such a depressing waste of time. If I discern some genuine progress, I'll probably get a half-season ticket at Christmas.

I think a lot of fans feel the same. The current regime is very much on trial. Let's face it, on a purely results basis, if you're impressed by CC, you have to be a little crazy, even before this Forest/Birmingham nonsense, which has undermined his credibility further. People who defend him seem to produce the argument that he isn't Yogi (not an argument at all) or that he's said to be a 'good coach' or 'talks well to the media', just as Yogi was meant to have 'passion' and be 'one of us.'

Well, sorry, Yogi and CC, but football is a results and performance driven game, and if we were getting some classy football, I'd put up with poor results for a while, but we're a long way from either where I've been sitting.

As I said, they're on trial, though that can be a good thing as a well a bad one. So c'mon CC, step up and start convincing us severe doubters (and it's no longer the short-term, its the mid-term, with two windows under your belt) to get with the project. If you do, you can expect anything up to another 3,000 plus half ST applications at Christmas.

But if we're lurching into November as a seamless continuation of last season, Rod, buy that one-way rail ticket to Midlands, stick it in his top pocket and drive him to the Waverley, or if you're too busy, I'll do it myself.

:top marks


I wonder if Fish would like seeing his surname on a seat?

:faf:

greenlex
20-07-2011, 08:57 PM
I'll ask again. Have all the available monies for playing staff wages been used, despite releasing in excess of 10 players and only signing 3 to date? If not, then it's unlikely that another 5 players would have been signed by now if ST numbers had remained static. Your point, IMHO, is just another reason [with little justification] to beat up some Hibs fans. The players brought in during the January window will almost certainly be above last seaso s budget so I think its fair to say the 10 out could be down to 6 to bakance thngs out a bit. The club ate still trying to bring players in so its not an issue for me.

Albion Hibs
20-07-2011, 08:58 PM
I am glad to see that we have sold so many season tickets, personally I would not go as far as to say we deserve credit. I dont think there are many teams around the world that would give there supporters credit for being supporters.

I dont agree with the speculate to accumulate nonsense that seems to pop up on every thread regardless of what it is about. Our club have been quite clear, investment in season books goes into the team, those that sit back and chose not to renew are a bigger part of the problem than the club, our board, or our manager. It is the same old, why should the club push the boat out when the fans wont. The reality is we have the team we have paid for. Perhaps unfair on the proper fans that buy every year/consistantly regardless that a more substaintial investment will only come if other followers of the club decide to turn up because we are playing well etc etc, but I guess that is the reality, we like the majority of clubs are faced with.

Beefster
20-07-2011, 09:02 PM
I think a lot of fans feel the same. The current regime is very much on trial. Let's face it, on a purely results basis, if you're impressed by CC, you have to be a little crazy, even before this Forest/Birmingham nonsense, which has undermined his credibility further. People who defend him seem to produce the argument that he isn't Yogi (not an argument at all) or that he's said to be a 'good coach' or 'talks well to the media', just as Yogi was meant to have 'passion' and be 'one of us.'

Some of us just argue that any manager would need a fair spell to resolve the situation when having to cope with the mess left by Hughes. Before Calderwood was appointed, I was posting that the new guy would need two years. I don't think it is fair to fully judge the guy until he's had time.


Beefster asked already on the thread if all available money freed up from releasing players has been spent on the team. IMHO, it's likely that there was no (or very little) money actually freed up to use.

Here's why I think that - at the last AGM (or at the release of the accounts, I don't remember which) the board said they needed to manage the wages/turnover ration down from the (IIRC) 68% that it had risen to. I believe the recommended ration is 60%, so we were a fair bit over that.

That 68% includes all wages at the club presumably. If it needs to be reduced (and I'm not disputing that it does), after the season that we've just had and the amount of players lost, I'd expect 'other' wage costs to be reduced in line with the playing staff wages.

It's also not really the message that the club has been sending out for the last year. Either explicitly or implicitly, they've been saying that this summer was the chance to refresh the squad to a big degree. Given the fans expectations as a result, it's been a bit of a damp squib (in terms of numbers brought in) so far.

Beefster
20-07-2011, 09:05 PM
The players brought in during the January window will almost certainly be above last seaso s budget so I think its fair to say the 10 out could be down to 6 to bakance thngs out a bit. The club ate still trying to bring players in so its not an issue for me.

I'm not particularly concerned either as there are weeks until the end of the window, although it's disappointing to not have everyone in before the start of the season, yet again. My main point was against the argument that, if 1700 more fans had renewed, we would have five extra signings by now.

matty_f
20-07-2011, 09:08 PM
Some of us just argue that any manager would need a fair spell to resolve the situation when having to cope with the mess left by Hughes. Before Calderwood was appointed, I was posting that the new guy would need two years. I don't think it is fair to fully judge the guy until he's had time.



That 68% includes all wages at the club presumably. If it needs to be reduced (and I'm not disputing that it does), after the season that we've just had and the amount of players lost, I'd expect 'other' wage costs to be reduced in line with the playing staff wages.

It's also not really the message that the club has been sending out for the last year. Either explicitly or implicitly, they've been saying that this summer was the chance to refresh the squad to a big degree. Given the fans expectations as a result, it's been a bit of a damp squib (in terms of numbers brought in).

Agree with your first paragraph.

I believe there have been several reductions in the wage outside of the playing budget, along with several other cost cutting measures to bring down the expenses.

I think Albion makes a good point - the refreshing of the squad started in January. Calderwood has signed (or re-signed) practically a whole first team - Stack (new contract), O'Hanlon, Booth (new contract), Sproule, Thornhill, Palsson, Scott, Sodje, O'Connor, Welsh (new contract), Galbraith (new contract) - apologies if I've missed anyone.

I've read that we've only added three new faces to the team that finished tenth last season, but whilst that's factually correct, I don't think it's a fair and accurate way to look at it. The team that started the season and played through to January was the one that did the damage, IMHO.

greenlex
20-07-2011, 09:10 PM
I'm not particularly concerned either as there are weeks until the end of the window, although it's disappointing to not have everyone in before the start of the season, yet again. My main point was against the argument that, if 1700 more fans had renewed, we would have five extra signings by now. True but if 1700 more renewed there would definatrly be scope for such signings or better quality. As it is niether is an option. I think thats the jist iof it.

3pm
20-07-2011, 09:15 PM
Agree with your first paragraph.

I believe there have been several reductions in the wage outside of the playing budget, along with several other cost cutting measures to bring down the expenses.

I think Albion makes a good point - the refreshing of the squad started in January. Calderwood has signed (or re-signed) practically a whole first team - Stack (new contract), O'Hanlon, Booth (new contract), Sproule, Thornhill, Palsson, Scott, Sodje, O'Connor, Welsh (new contract), Galbraith (new contract) - apologies if I've missed anyone.

I've read that we've only added three new faces to the team that finished tenth last season, but whilst that's factually correct, I don't think it's a fair and accurate way to look at it. The team that started the season and played through to January was the one that did the damage, IMHO.

If we have the intention of progressing, we need to do better than plugging the gaps. The likes of Scott and Sodje for example are not, in my opinion, good enough to last a season. We need quality.

matty_f
20-07-2011, 09:18 PM
If we have the intention of progressing, we need to do better than plugging the gaps. The likes of Scott and Sodje for example are not, in my opinion, good enough to last a season. We need quality.

I agree, but I think we might need to get used to the fact that changes like that will be a step-change towards where we're going.

3pm
20-07-2011, 09:31 PM
I agree, but I think we might need to get used to the fact that changes like that will be a step-change towards where we're going.

There's a lot of chat on here as you are obviously very much aware about paying for a season ticket to finance a better quality of squad. That ain't going to happen when you are being asked to watch Sodje and Scott (I don't mean to keep on picking on these guys cos they try hard). We've got ourselves into such a mess that we are now having to watch this drivel. It's almost poker like now in that someone is going to have to blink first to kickstart change - the board or fans! At £400 a pop it won't be the fans!

By the way, I have renewed but understand why anyone would decline to do so.

sahib
20-07-2011, 09:36 PM
Apart from the missing 5 players.

Suppose I had taken Blobby's advice and had taken to going to the pictures for entertainment of a Saturday. Let us further suppose that the films on offer were crap and I asked the manager why he showed such dross. If he replied that it was his customers fault, for not turning up in sufficient numbers to enable him to purchase the latest block busters, would that be a decent reason?
I think it would be to a certain extent but I would probably give up going anyway.

Albion Hibs
20-07-2011, 09:45 PM
There's a lot of chat on here as you are obviously very much aware about paying for a season ticket to finance a better quality of squad. That ain't going to happen when you are being asked to watch Sodje and Scott (I don't mean to keep on picking on these guys cos they try hard). We've got ourselves into such a mess that we are now having to watch this drivel. It's almost poker like now in that someone is going to have to blink first to kickstart change - the board or fans! At £400 a pop it won't be the fans!

By the way, I have renewed but understand why anyone would decline to do so.

Well that is a shame, as I dont think it will be...or should be the board.

With regards to the last bit that is were I differ massively in opinion, I cannot understand why a fan would decide not to renew. Dont get me wrong I know at this time in life money is tighter than it has been for a while and that will also have something to do with the number of ST sales. In that situation I totally respect someones decision and can more than understand if.

But I have no time for fans who chose not to go to games because the football is not good enough and we are not winning enough games for them to care, yet they will be on here posting up on match day threads making comment (typically very negative) on everything, watching the weekends games on Sky Sports, paying Sky money at the same time critising the standard of game in this country as a result of the lack of revenue and viewing numbers - again a problem created by people who are not really fans of a club, but perhaps more fans of football in general.

Albion Hibs
20-07-2011, 10:00 PM
Suppose I had taken Blobby's advice and had taken to going to the pictures for entertainment of a Saturday. Let us further suppose that the films on offer were crap and I asked the manager why he showed such dross. If he replied that it was his customers fault, for not turning up in sufficient numbers to enable him to purchase the latest block busters, would that be a decent reason?
I think it would be to a certain extent but I would probably give up going anyway.

I think that is the problem though, we cant simply expect every industry in the world to go bust trying to give each individual what they want - the simple reality is, no industry in the world will ever be all things to all people. And no industry in the world is ever going to throw good money after bad and invest when they are going to make a loss, it is simple.

In any event I dont think the above senario is the case. I think you would say that film is gash, but I love going to the pictures, the getting up, getting ready to go, chosing your favorite popcorn and perhaps a slush puppy or bag of Revels (so you can play coffee roulette) then getting comfy in your seat watching the credits....I may be getting carried away now.

My simple view on this is we have a good club, an owner that has done more for up than any other club in the league and a board that runs us well and will invest in the team, if we as fans invest in our club. Dont get me wrong last season was minging, but I do believe at some stage we will turn a corner, it may even be the start of that on sunday. But I dont intend to sod off for a walk in the park, tour of Ikea and just wonder how hibs are getting on for 90 mins each weekend. I would rather go to the game, go home depressed, not enjoy my chippy as much as I should, get pelters from the Mrs for being in a huff - so that I can at least say I was there.

Just my view, not an uber fan, just a fan. The fact of the matter is my excitement for Sunday has been growing all week, I cant wait!!

greenlex
20-07-2011, 10:25 PM
I think that is the problem though, we cant simply expect every industry in the world to go bust trying to give each individual what they want - the simple reality is, no industry in the world will ever be all things to all people. And no industry in the world is ever going to throw good money after bad and invest when they are going to make a loss, it is simple. In any event I dont think the above senario is the case. I think you would say that film is gash, but I love going to the pictures, the getting up, getting ready to go, chosing your favorite popcorn and perhaps a slush puppy or bag of Revels (so you can play coffee roulette) then getting comfy in your seat watching the credits....I may be getting carried away now. My simple view on this is we have a good club, an owner that has done more for up than any other club in the league and a board that runs us well and will invest in the team, if we as fans invest in our club. Dont get me wrong last season was minging, but I do believe at some stage we will turn a corner, it may even be the start of that on sunday. But I dont intend to sod off for a walk in the park, tour of Ikea and just wonder how hibs are getting on for 90 mins each weekend. I would rather go to the game, go home depressed, not enjoy my chippy as much as I should, get pelters from the Mrs for being in a huff - so that I can at least say I was there. Just my view, not an uber fan, just a fan. The fact of the matter is my excitement for Sunday has been growing all week, I cant wait!! Thats it in a nutshell Albion. Exactly how I see it. Only difference is its usually a Chinese.

DuffyHFC
20-07-2011, 10:39 PM
As a died in the wool hibby and former season ticket holder of 10 years, my support of the club has declined the last few reasons. Financialy things are tough for alot of people at the minute, especially for fans with kids. The club itself has NO ambition and the football on offer last season was simply woefull. Last but not least the future of the club does not look good on the player front either, when on a recent visit to Gregs the bakers in Easter Road i was behind four or our "stars" of the future. Sausage rolls, Steak bakes and apple turnovers where had and on leaving the shop one of them lit up a FAG!! I take no joy from writing this as this, as it puts my club in an even worse light than before. I fear i will be watching any Hibs games through my fingers again for another season.:confused:

matty_f
20-07-2011, 10:40 PM
I think that is the problem though, we cant simply expect every industry in the world to go bust trying to give each individual what they want - the simple reality is, no industry in the world will ever be all things to all people. And no industry in the world is ever going to throw good money after bad and invest when they are going to make a loss, it is simple.

In any event I dont think the above senario is the case. I think you would say that film is gash, but I love going to the pictures, the getting up, getting ready to go, chosing your favorite popcorn and perhaps a slush puppy or bag of Revels (so you can play coffee roulette) then getting comfy in your seat watching the credits....I may be getting carried away now.

My simple view on this is we have a good club, an owner that has done more for up than any other club in the league and a board that runs us well and will invest in the team, if we as fans invest in our club. Dont get me wrong last season was minging, but I do believe at some stage we will turn a corner, it may even be the start of that on sunday. But I dont intend to sod off for a walk in the park, tour of Ikea and just wonder how hibs are getting on for 90 mins each weekend. I would rather go to the game, go home depressed, not enjoy my chippy as much as I should, get pelters from the Mrs for being in a huff - so that I can at least say I was there.

Just my view, not an uber fan, just a fan. The fact of the matter is my excitement for Sunday has been growing all week, I cant wait!!

Good post.:agree:

greenlex
20-07-2011, 10:44 PM
As a died in the wool hibby and former season ticket holder of 10 years, my support of the club has declined the last few reasons. Financialy things are tough for alot of people at the minute, especially for fans with kids. The club itself has NO ambition and the football on offer last season was simply woefull. Last but not least the future of the club does not look good on the player front either, when on a recent visit to Gregs the bakers in Easter Road i was behind four or our "stars" of the future. Sausage rolls, Steak bakes and apple turnovers where had and on leaving the shop one of them lit up a FAG!! I take no joy from writing this as this, as it puts my club in an even worse light than before. I fear i will be watching any Hibs games through my fingers again for another season.:confused: Name names. That is shocking.

Beefster
21-07-2011, 05:50 AM
I think that is the problem though, we cant simply expect every industry in the world to go bust trying to give each individual what they want - the simple reality is, no industry in the world will ever be all things to all people. And no industry in the world is ever going to throw good money after bad and invest when they are going to make a loss, it is simple.

In any event I dont think the above senario is the case. I think you would say that film is gash, but I love going to the pictures, the getting up, getting ready to go, chosing your favorite popcorn and perhaps a slush puppy or bag of Revels (so you can play coffee roulette) then getting comfy in your seat watching the credits....I may be getting carried away now.

My simple view on this is we have a good club, an owner that has done more for up than any other club in the league and a board that runs us well and will invest in the team, if we as fans invest in our club. Dont get me wrong last season was minging, but I do believe at some stage we will turn a corner, it may even be the start of that on sunday. But I dont intend to sod off for a walk in the park, tour of Ikea and just wonder how hibs are getting on for 90 mins each weekend. I would rather go to the game, go home depressed, not enjoy my chippy as much as I should, get pelters from the Mrs for being in a huff - so that I can at least say I was there.

Just my view, not an uber fan, just a fan. The fact of the matter is my excitement for Sunday has been growing all week, I cant wait!!

All fine. Hibs cannot please everyone, that's evident. They have to cater for as many people as they can though. The fact remains that customer numbers are falling. Some folk continue to blame the 'customers' though. Once a customer breaks the habit of going every week, it will be far harder to get them back than it was to lose them. The current downward slide in numbers could affect the club for the next five years or more.

As for not understanding why people renew, I continue to renew but folk have other pressures/priorities. I have a young child - rather than drudge along to watch something that, more often than not lately, is terrible with little entertainment, should I spend the day with my family and giving my child a great day out elsewhere? Nothing gives me more joy than seeing him happy.


As a died in the wool hibby and former season ticket holder of 10 years, my support of the club has declined the last few reasons. Financialy things are tough for alot of people at the minute, especially for fans with kids. The club itself has NO ambition and the football on offer last season was simply woefull. Last but not least the future of the club does not look good on the player front either, when on a recent visit to Gregs the bakers in Easter Road i was behind four or our "stars" of the future. Sausage rolls, Steak bakes and apple turnovers where had and on leaving the shop one of them lit up a FAG!! I take no joy from writing this as this, as it puts my club in an even worse light than before. I fear i will be watching any Hibs games through my fingers again for another season.:confused:

Isn't it up to players how they treat their bodies? If they want to mess up their fitness (or chances of making it) by smoking, more fool them. I don't think it can be used as a reason why Hibs are doomed though.

IWasThere2016
21-07-2011, 06:23 AM
Putting aside everything else - the sheer additional capacity we now have means unless you attend every, single game, there is very, very little point in getting a ST.

That is a very valid point IMO. It also highlights the flaw in the logic of spending only ST funds on the team.

Let say attendances are static for season 11/12 BUT because of increased capacity, TV games, uncertainty over CC, insufficient signings fans decide to walk up instead.

RP won't know the financial consequences of this until the summer window closes. Thus the opportunity to sign players is lost until January. This impacts on the team, the team's position, chances in the cups which then affects income.

Ever decreasing circles follow .. As they have done since the last decent side we had in 2007.

Said it before, and will say it again, this time RP will need to blink first and get the players in as too many fans at least 2,000 it seems have had enough of things as they are.

Cropley10
21-07-2011, 08:26 AM
I'd love to see us going that extra bit to get players in, really I would. Believe it or not, I support Hibs to see us play good football, with good players, and to have success. That's the dream, for me. I care not a jot who the chairman is, who the owner is, so long as I believe they are acting in the best interests of the football club. For me, the football team is what I love.

However, that comes with a caveat that I understand why we can't spend that bit extra. I understand that when we miss out on a player it's because someone else has more money than us to offer him, and not because we have been tight-fisted with our offer. I understand that the work that goes into signing a player isn't always successful and that sometimes, perhaps even often, we won't get our first choice targets. I suspect that is the same for clubs the world over.

The current plan hasn't worked for the last couple of seasons while the club has been grown (in terms of the training centre and stadium.) Does that mean the plan won't ever worked? I wouldn't think so. IMHO, it means we're ideally placed to sustain good times when they come around again.

I'd be very interested to hear your definition of 'a little extra' - how much is that? What difference do you think it would make?

I think the easiest example (and perhaps the laziest one, but it is appropriate nonetheless) is to look at Hearts. They have not spent 'a little extra' over what we have. They've spent more than us on a whole different level. They got third last season after scraping top 6 the season before. They won something like three times since the turn of the year.

So, how much is 'a little extra', and what difference do you think it would make?

People often like to applaud the Board for the fantastic job they did in repairing the balance sheet, building the East Stand and East Mains. Now I may be entirely wrong here, but the justification for doing all of this at the time and not investing in the team was that once the infrastructure was bought and paid for and the interest payments reduced or removed, we'd be spending on the team instead. The future's bright and all that.

Now - on here at least - it is now accepted that if we we want to see more investment in the team then WE have to pay for that. The fact is - other than for convenience and to give the Club your cash upfront there's no need to get an ST - there's plenty of capacity for the walk-up. This is the one glaring flaw in the current strategy.

What we also seem to have is some paranoid fear of debt, as if the very act of getting in debt will mean that the gates of ER will close immediately and that will be that. There appears to be no room for even any discussion on this matter, phrases like breaking the bank are used, and of course there's Hertz. I believe there has to me some middle ground between where we are now and where Hertz have managed to get themselves.

We are not going to get more people to invest in a ST, unless there's a reason - capacity isn't a reason, nor is the current team on the park. So there appears to be a tough decision to make - spend a little extra, say on Sheridan, a RB a CM and improve this team or watch the investment of the fans continue to decline.

And to all those who say - well what if Sheridan gets injured on day one - well what if he scored the winner in a Cup Final?

Running a business sometimes means taking a risk. Living with a little more manageable debt, in order to be able to strengthen some key areas of the team, has surely got to be better than sitting in a half full ER every other week? Needs must I'd say.

As for how much - who knows, but most of us in life sometimes pay a little extra for something we need? Right now we need to spend a little more than we'd like to or expected to I'd say.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 09:12 AM
People often like to applaud the Board for the fantastic job they did in repairing the balance sheet, building the East Stand and East Mains. Now I may be entirely wrong here, but the justification for doing all of this at the time and not investing in the team was that once the infrastructure was bought and paid for and the interest payments reduced or removed, we'd be spending on the team instead. The future's bright and all that.

Now - on here at least - it is now accepted that if we we want to see more investment in the team then WE have to pay for that. The fact is - other than for convenience and to give the Club your cash upfront there's no need to get an ST - there's plenty of capacity for the walk-up. This is the one glaring flaw in the current strategy.

What we also seem to have is some paranoid fear of debt, as if the very act of getting in debt will mean that the gates of ER will close immediately and that will be that. There appears to be no room for even any discussion on this matter, phrases like breaking the bank are used, and of course there's Hertz. I believe there has to me some middle ground between where we are now and where Hertz have managed to get themselves.

We are not going to get more people to invest in a ST, unless there's a reason - capacity isn't a reason, nor is the current team on the park. So there appears to be a tough decision to make - spend a little extra, say on Sheridan, a RB a CM and improve this team or watch the investment of the fans continue to decline.

And to all those who say - well what if Sheridan gets injured on day one - well what if he scored the winner in a Cup Final?

Running a business sometimes means taking a risk. Living with a little more manageable debt, in order to be able to strengthen some key areas of the team, has surely got to be better than sitting in a half full ER every other week? Needs must I'd say.

As for how much - who knows, but most of us in life sometimes pay a little extra for something we need? Right now we need to spend a little more than we'd like to or expected to I'd say.

The board get some praise, but I think most people that post about in defence of the board do so when folk are criticising them, rather than actively posting to praise them.

I also don't think anyone is afraid of debt either, I'd hope not anyway because we have plenty of it, and will have for some time.

Of course there is middle ground between us and Hearts, however using them as an example shows you just how little difference a big (and you are talking serious money here) spend on the players makes. Hearts just made third last season ahead of Dundee United who were on a fraction of Hearts' (and probably Hibs') budget for players. If the season had been a week or two longer there's every chance that United could have overtaken them for third.

The season before that, Hearts just made the top 6 thanks to a strong finish to the season.

Now, that is with spending millions upon millions of pounds. They managed, once, to split the OF, and haven't come remotely close to doing so since. They have a respected manager (even if he does bend over and take it), good crowds etc, the use of a good training facility but they're not massively out-performing us. They finished ahead of us last season, but the season prior to that we finished well ahead of them. They're not going on good cup runs. That money hasn't really done anything for them. We've both won a cup since Romanov has been at Hearts.

So again, I'll ask you how much do you think this little bit extra should be to make a difference?

Beefster
21-07-2011, 09:16 AM
So again, I'll ask you how much do you think this little bit extra should be to make a difference?

How much money do you think they can cut from the playing staff without adversely affecting the quality?

Cropley's right. We had it drummed into us for years that the capital investment would allow us, in future years, to reinvest all fees back into the team. Stokes, Bamba and Zemmama sold in the last 12 months and 16 or so players released. As far as we know, no fees have been paid to bring a player in and the overall playing budget is being cut.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 09:28 AM
How much money do you think they can cut from the playing staff without adversely affecting the quality?

Cropley's right. We had it drummed into us for years that the capital investment would allow us, in future years, to reinvest all fees back into the team. Stokes, Bamba and Zemmama sold in the last 12 months and 16 or so players released. As far as we know, no fees have been paid to bring a player in and the overall playing budget is being cut.

I don't think we can cut any more without affecting the quality, I think that the board have to work very, very hard to increase revenue to stop what would need to be some severe cuts, IMHO.

The capital investment should, and will, allow us to invest in future years. Up until this season there had been a season on season increase on the spend on the team, as reported to the shareholders at the AGM (so I'd presume that is true). I think realistically, with the impact of the poor season we had last season that spend would need to be cut for financial reasons. Were the board responsible for the poor season? They brought in players that Yogi had been tracking for some time, and in January they gave CC money to bring six players in. That's not insignificant and should not be ignored.

You say that as far as you know no fees have been paid to bring players in, but that's not true - we paid for Martin Scott, and I think there were other fees involved in bringing the players in in January. It looks like we've offered a fee (although small) for Sheridan. We also don't know at this stage whether or not (and if so, by how much) the club are stretching the budget or being prepared to take a manageable loss, in getting the players in for the new season.

We may already be projecting a deficit for the next financial year to try and address the quality of the team. We won't know the details until the accounts come out.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 09:34 AM
The board get some praise, but I think most people that post about in defence of the board do so when folk are criticising them, rather than actively posting to praise them.

I also don't think anyone is afraid of debt either, I'd hope not anyway because we have plenty of it, and will have for some time.

Of course there is middle ground between us and Hearts, however using them as an example shows you just how little difference a big (and you are talking serious money here) spend on the players makes. Hearts just made third last season ahead of Dundee United who were on a fraction of Hearts' (and probably Hibs') budget for players. If the season had been a week or two longer there's every chance that United could have overtaken them for third.

The season before that, Hearts just made the top 6 thanks to a strong finish to the season.

Now, that is with spending millions upon millions of pounds. They managed, once, to split the OF, and haven't come remotely close to doing so since. They have a respected manager (even if he does bend over and take it), good crowds etc, the use of a good training facility but they're not massively out-performing us. They finished ahead of us last season, but the season prior to that we finished well ahead of them. They're not going on good cup runs. That money hasn't really done anything for them. We've both won a cup since Romanov has been at Hearts.

So again, I'll ask you how much do you think this little bit extra should be to make a difference?

Another good post in a succession of them, Matty.

I made the point in another thread recently that it is not how much is spent, but who is spending it that makes the difference - and that Celtic have learnt that painful lesson over the last 3 seasons, where they've had the ideal opportunity to open a huge gap between them and Rangers (how ****ed would Rangers be now without the last 3 seasons of Champions League money?). Celtic have massively outspent them on every level, (even at one point paying £70K a week for Robbie Keane, someone who looked as if he would rip the SPL apart, a great example of how you can never be sure) before then having to tighten their own belts. Even then, look at the difference with Lennon, much more modest budget but he spent it superbly, with practically every signing being a success. If it hadn't been for Walter Smith being at Ibrox for the last 4 years things could have been hugely different, and it just shows you how important a good manager is.

Even at the very highest levels of football, spending big ensures nothing - how much have Real Madrid paid in transfer fees these last few years? They spent £200M on 4 players one summer, and it's got them nowhere compared to the (though still massive expenditure) more modest Barca transfer policy (and even when Barca did really splash out, Ibrahimavic was a failure who they have made a HUGE loss on). Real Madrid may play some great football but they haven't come close to meeting the objectives that go with such expenditure. In England, Chelsea (since 2006) and Manchester City (though it may change in the coming years) have had very little return for their unbelievable transfer fees and wages paid out, many people also complained that Manchester City weren't even that exciting to watch last season. Manchester United (again, whilst still spending big), haven't spent as much as two, maybe three of their rivals, yet have still been much more successful - again, this is because a very astute man is spending the money.

Hibs under Mowbray, Motherwell under McGhee and to a lesser extent Killie under Mixu last year have shown that entertaining teams can be built from modest budgets (and our budgets have been more than modest recently) and achieve their goals in the SPL. Hearts have shown that excessive spending doesn't really achieve much more, and their 3rd place finish under Laszlo was derided by many as being boring as hell - they've only really started to get some benefit from their expensive squad since they got a good manager in.

Our budget is enough to achieve our goals if it is spent by the right person - if JC had spent better we wouldn't be where we are now. Whether CC has spent it wisely is yet to be definitively proved one way or the other, we'll see what happens.

Cropley10
21-07-2011, 10:05 AM
The board get some praise, but I think most people that post about in defence of the board do so when folk are criticising them, rather than actively posting to praise them.

I also don't think anyone is afraid of debt either, I'd hope not anyway because we have plenty of it, and will have for some time.

Of course there is middle ground between us and Hearts, however using them as an example shows you just how little difference a big (and you are talking serious money here) spend on the players makes. Hearts just made third last season ahead of Dundee United who were on a fraction of Hearts' (and probably Hibs') budget for players. If the season had been a week or two longer there's every chance that United could have overtaken them for third.

The season before that, Hearts just made the top 6 thanks to a strong finish to the season.

Now, that is with spending millions upon millions of pounds. They managed, once, to split the OF, and haven't come remotely close to doing so since. They have a respected manager (even if he does bend over and take it), good crowds etc, the use of a good training facility but they're not massively out-performing us. They finished ahead of us last season, but the season prior to that we finished well ahead of them. They're not going on good cup runs. That money hasn't really done anything for them. We've both won a cup since Romanov has been at Hearts.

So again, I'll ask you how much do you think this little bit extra should be to make a difference?\

Hertz out perform us in just about any statistic you care to name. They finished how many points above us, what was the swing in one year, when did we last beat them in a Derby? When did we last beat them twice in a Derby? But I don't give a flying one about Hertz.

Have you not paid a little extra for something you really need? Only when you know how much you have to spend and how much the thing you need is can you make that decision, neither of us know either of those numbers, so it's a futile discussion.

This current strategy is flawed - more people aren't going to walk up or buy a ST if the product on the pitch isn't worth watching. A chicken and egg situation, where we are expected to SAUBC again.

Cropley10
21-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Another good post in a succession of them, Matty.

I made the point in another thread recently that it is not how much is spent, but who is spending it that makes the difference - and that Celtic have learnt that painful lesson over the last 3 seasons, where they've had the ideal opportunity to open a huge gap between them and Rangers (how ****ed would Rangers be now without the last 3 seasons of Champions League money?). Celtic have massively outspent them on every level, (even at one point paying £70K a week for Robbie Keane, someone who looked as if he would rip the SPL apart, a great example of how you can never be sure) before then having to tighten their own belts. Even then, look at the difference with Lennon, much more modest budget but he spent it superbly, with practically every signing being a success. If it hadn't been for Walter Smith being at Ibrox for the last 4 years things could have been hugely different, and it just shows you how important a good manager is.

Even at the very highest levels of football, spending big ensures nothing - how much have Real Madrid paid in transfer fees these last few years? They spent £200M on 4 players one summer, and it's got them nowhere compared to the (though still massive expenditure) more modest Barca transfer policy (and even when Barca did really splash out, Ibrahimavic was a failure who they have made a HUGE loss on). Real Madrid may play some great football but they haven't come close to meeting the objectives that go with such expenditure. In England, Chelsea (since 2006) and Manchester City (though it may change in the coming years) have had very little return for their unbelievable transfer fees and wages paid out, many people also complained that Manchester City weren't even that exciting to watch last season. Manchester United (again, whilst still spending big), haven't spent as much as two, maybe three of their rivals, yet have still been much more successful - again, this is because a very astute man is spending the money.

Hibs under Mowbray, Motherwell under McGhee and to a lesser extent Killie under Mixu last year have shown that entertaining teams can be built from modest budgets (and our budgets have been more than modest recently) and achieve their goals in the SPL. Hearts have shown that excessive spending doesn't really achieve much more, and their 3rd place finish under Laszlo was derided by many as being boring as hell - they've only really started to get some benefit from their expensive squad since they got a good manager in.

Our budget is enough to achieve our goals if it is spent by the right person - if JC had spent better we wouldn't be where we are now. Whether CC has spent it wisely is yet to be definitively proved one way or the other, we'll see what happens.

It's not about spending BIG, it's about spending more than a little, right now. There is a middle ground. And how do you know the bit in bold?

Judas Iscariot
21-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Why is the lack of new faces now being blamed on fans not renewing? Surely it's about time the board stepped up to the plate and gave fans a few reasons to renew rather than doing so on blind hope and habit!

Albion Hibs
21-07-2011, 10:20 AM
Why is the lack of new faces now being blamed on fans not renewing? Surely it's about time the board stepped up to the plate and gave fans a few reasons to renew rather than doing so on blind hope and habit!

As a "fan" do you need "reasons" to renew? Is the reason you renew not simply that you are a Hibs fan and want to support Hibernain Football Club?

marinello59
21-07-2011, 10:20 AM
Why is the lack of new faces now being blamed on fans not renewing? Surely it's about time the board stepped up to the plate and gave fans a few reasons to renew rather than doing so on blind hope and habit!

They have given several reasons and provided several incentives to renew. You have to want to see them though.

Mikey
21-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Why is the lack of new faces now being blamed on fans not renewing?

Pretty simple really. If fans don't renew the money isn't there to buy players. It's basic economics.

Baldy Foghorn
21-07-2011, 10:27 AM
Pretty simple really. If fans don't renew the money isn't there to buy players. It's basic economics.

As mentioned before how much wages are being "saved" due to the release of so many players? Is this freed up money being re-invested?

Mikey
21-07-2011, 10:28 AM
As mentioned before how much wages are being "saved" due to the release of so many players? Is this freed up money being re-invested?

Who knows. Why would the club keep it if it's available?

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 10:30 AM
It's not about spending BIG, it's about spending more than a little, right now. There is a middle ground. And how do you know the bit in bold?

My point was never about spending big anyway, it was about how the person spending the money is more imprtant than the amount spent. I'm pretty confident that our budget this year is more than it was in Mowbray's first season and Motherwell's when McGhee was in charge.

There definitely is a middle ground, you have yet to elaborate on where that middle ground lies exactly though.

Baldy Foghorn
21-07-2011, 10:32 AM
Who knows. Why would the club keep it if it's available?

To assist paying other bills?

matty_f
21-07-2011, 10:33 AM
\

Hertz out perform us in just about any statistic you care to name. They finished how many points above us, what was the swing in one year, when did we last beat them in a Derby? When did we last beat them twice in a Derby? But I don't give a flying one about Hertz.

Have you not paid a little extra for something you really need? Only when you know how much you have to spend and how much the thing you need is can you make that decision, neither of us know either of those numbers, so it's a futile discussion.

This current strategy is flawed - more people aren't going to walk up or buy a ST if the product on the pitch isn't worth watching. A chicken and egg situation, where we are expected to SAUBC again.

SUABC was for a specific reason - to stay at Easter Road and the board delivered. Not only did they deliver, but they've made Easter Road a fantastic place to watch football.

Do you know that the board are not paying a little extra?

Hearts were ahead of us last season, the season before that we were ahead of them. They've won one cup since Romanov took over, as have we. Are these the statistics you're talking about?

Hearts spent several times more than we did to finish one place above where we finished the season before. Do you think us spending a little bit extra would have changed that?

You and I have no idea how much of a hit Hibs are taking this season to try and get the players that CC wants for his squad. You don't know if we've budgeted for a little extra or not.

And apologies for saying this, but it really is a totally nothing statement to make - we need to spend a little bit extra. Without expanding, it's just hyperbole. Is a £2k/week player going to make much more of a difference than a £1.5k/week player? It was reported that we had players on £4k a week last season - that went well, didn't it? So are we needing to spend a little bit more than £4k a week? Where is this money coming from? We already have a manageable debt, how much more do you think we should be getting into? How much more do you think Banks would lend us based on our turnover?

Mikey
21-07-2011, 10:35 AM
To assist paying other bills?

Sounds feasible. They've stated their aim is to spend £1 more than the club earns.

Bills have to be paid too.

Albion Hibs
21-07-2011, 10:44 AM
SUABC was for a specific reason - to stay at Easter Road and the board delivered. Not only did they deliver, but they've made Easter Road a fantastic place to watch football.

Do you know that the board are not paying a little extra?

Hearts were ahead of us last season, the season before that we were ahead of them. They've won one cup since Romanov took over, as have we. Are these the statistics you're talking about?

Hearts spent several times more than we did to finish one place above where we finished the season before. Do you think us spending a little bit extra would have changed that?

You and I have no idea how much of a hit Hibs are taking this season to try and get the players that CC wants for his squad. You don't know if we've budgeted for a little extra or not.

And apologies for saying this, but it really is a totally nothing statement to make - we need to spend a little bit extra. Without expanding, it's just hyperbole. Is a £2k/week player going to make much more of a difference than a £1.5k/week player? It was reported that we had players on £4k a week last season - that went well, didn't it? So are we needing to spend a little bit more than £4k a week? Where is this money coming from? We already have a manageable debt, how much more do you think we should be getting into? How much more do you think Banks would lend us based on our turnover?

Great point. There seem to be many on here that would be more than happy to see the club go well into the red, perhaps just to give them a "reason" to think about renewing and being a Hibs fan next season - no guarentees from them, empty words in my view and just an excuse to have a go at Hibs.

No one on here knows the current finance, offering and expenditures of Hibs, and they almost certainly never will. Again more often than not negative comments about what they think is the case and just another excuse to have a go.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 10:45 AM
As mentioned before how much wages are being "saved" due to the release of so many players? Is this freed up money being re-invested?

Baldy, I posted a fairly lengthy theory on the "freed up" wages, which basically went along the lines of there not being that much, if any.

I think the six signings we made in January took us over budget for wages (given that we were operating at 68% wages/turnover, I reckon the additional wages at that point took us well over that mark). This would have been acceptable knowing that x amount of wages would be removed from the bill come the end of the season.

So, you're probably looking at at least 6 of those exiting players' wages being spent already. Then we've brought in 3 new players and agreed improved contracts for (IIRC) Booth and Hanlon, so potentially some more taken there.

Then there's the fact that the turnover is likely to be hugely down on the previous year, so even to maintain the wages/turnover ration at 68% (which the board stated was higher than desired due to trying to back managers) you need to cut the spend on wages.

We know other cuts have been made so it looks like the board are trying to minimise the impact on the playing staff, but looking at it objectively I cannot see how they could do anything other than cut the wage bill.

Luckily that should happen through reducing the squad size, so we should (in theory) be able to offer good wages to a smaller group of players, rather than average wages to a large group.

Beefster
21-07-2011, 10:45 AM
I don't think we can cut any more without affecting the quality, I think that the board have to work very, very hard to increase revenue to stop what would need to be some severe cuts, IMHO.

The capital investment should, and will, allow us to invest in future years. Up until this season there had been a season on season increase on the spend on the team, as reported to the shareholders at the AGM (so I'd presume that is true). I think realistically, with the impact of the poor season we had last season that spend would need to be cut for financial reasons. Were the board responsible for the poor season? They brought in players that Yogi had been tracking for some time, and in January they gave CC money to bring six players in. That's not insignificant and should not be ignored.

You say that as far as you know no fees have been paid to bring players in, but that's not true - we paid for Martin Scott, and I think there were other fees involved in bringing the players in in January. It looks like we've offered a fee (although small) for Sheridan. We also don't know at this stage whether or not (and if so, by how much) the club are stretching the budget or being prepared to take a manageable loss, in getting the players in for the new season.

We may already be projecting a deficit for the next financial year to try and address the quality of the team. We won't know the details until the accounts come out.

Okay - we've brought in, in excess of, £1m in transfer fees and spent no more than £200k (but more than likely nowhere near it). We're now reportedly offering £20k for a capped player that we evidently want. We've let around 20 players go, including Riordan, Miller, Bamba, Stokes and Zemmama who would not have come cheap. We've brought in about 7 (some of whom won't be cheap but I'm fairly certain that the players gone cover the players in for wages). Fine. I get all that.

So when we were told that the infrastructure spending will allow us to invest all monies in the team in future, what they really meant was "we'll spend it all on the team as long as we balance the books elsewhere at the club and the overall revenue doesn't drop". There is always some reason why the team is suffering. As I see it, the Board have two choices - they increase the revenue by any means possible (we've discussed the details a few times before), improve the team as a result and see the revenue increase even further when lapsed supporters are tempted back or they instead concentrate on getting the costs to fit the existing [falling] revenue, the team gets worse, more STs are not renewed and they have to start cutting costs again to fit the lower revenue.

At the moment, it seems like they are doing the second option. If that is correct, it could be disastrous long-term.

Edit: There is no suggesting that we should increase debt in this post before I have to reply to someone pointing that out.

smurf
21-07-2011, 10:48 AM
SUABC was for a specific reason - to stay at Easter Road and the board delivered. Not only did they deliver, but they've made Easter Road a fantastic place to watch football.

That the board delivered is up for debate (and we get that!) but the supporters certainly delivered on SUABC.

Beefster
21-07-2011, 10:48 AM
Pretty simple really. If fans don't renew the money isn't there to buy players. It's basic economics.

No, it's simplistic economics.

You are ignoring transfer fees. The things that paid for a lot of the building work and that other clubs sometimes largely reinvest in the playing squad.

Not to mention sponsorships, corporate hospitality etc etc etc etc.

Baldy Foghorn
21-07-2011, 10:53 AM
Baldy, I posted a fairly lengthy theory on the "freed up" wages, which basically went along the lines of there not being that much, if any.

I think the six signings we made in January took us over budget for wages (given that we were operating at 68% wages/turnover, I reckon the additional wages at that point took us well over that mark). This would have been acceptable knowing that x amount of wages would be removed from the bill come the end of the season.

So, you're probably looking at at least 6 of those exiting players' wages being spent already. Then we've brought in 3 new players and agreed improved contracts for (IIRC) Booth and Hanlon, so potentially some more taken there.

Then there's the fact that the turnover is likely to be hugely down on the previous year, so even to maintain the wages/turnover ration at 68% (which the board stated was higher than desired due to trying to back managers) you need to cut the spend on wages.

We know other cuts have been made so it looks like the board are trying to minimise the impact on the playing staff, but looking at it objectively I cannot see how they could do anything other than cut the wage bill.

Luckily that should happen through reducing the squad size, so we should (in theory) be able to offer good wages to a smaller group of players, rather than average wages to a large group.

The Board need to make a concerted effort in maximising turnover..... Hibs need to try and get more supporter's through the gates, and many are potentially wavering and some even talking of walking away forever.... The Board need to make the Club vibrant, exciting, so that these potentially lapsed fans are re-reunited with the Club in an all embracing way

matty_f
21-07-2011, 10:53 AM
Okay - we've brought in, in excess of, £1m in transfer fees and spent no more than £200k (but more than likely nowhere near it). We're now reportedly offering £20k for a capped player that we evidently want. We've let around 20 players go, including Riordan, Miller, Bamba, Stokes and Zemmama who would not have come cheap. We've brought in about 7 (some of whom won't be cheap but I'm fairly certain that the players gone cover the players in for wages). Fine. I get all that.

So when we were told that the infrastructure spending will allow us to invest all monies in the team in future, what they really meant was "we'll spend it all on the team as long as we balance the books elsewhere at the club and the overall revenue doesn't drop". There is always some reason why the team is suffering. As I see it, the Board have two choices - they increase the revenue by any means possible (we've discussed the details a few times before), improve the team as a result and see the revenue increase even further when lapsed supporters are tempted back or they instead concentrate on getting the costs to fit the existing [falling] revenue, the team gets worse, more STs are not renewed and they have to start cutting costs again to fit the lower revenue.

At the moment, it seems like they are doing the second option. If that is correct, it could be disastrous long-term.

I don't recall that ever being said by the board. I would think that a logical conclusion to make, though, is that once the club is in a position to do so (i.e. operating at break even or at a profit) then excess funds would be directed to the first team. Why wouldn't it be? The shareholders don't get dividends and the board have said their aim is to spend £1 less than we take in (that's more or less a direct quote), so what else is there to spend it on?

What would the board have to gain by not providing all available money to the manager?

If you want to sense-check the statement about investing all monies in the team in the future, you have to understand that you can't do that - the club costs money to run. Without managing and meeting those costs we're out of business. The club have consistently said that they'd put all season ticket money into the team. I don't doubt that they've done that.

Albion Hibs
21-07-2011, 10:54 AM
Okay - we've brought in, in excess of, £1m in transfer fees and spent no more than £200k (but more than likely nowhere near it). We're now reportedly offering £20k for a capped player that we evidently want. We've let around 20 players go, including Riordan, Miller, Bamba, Stokes and Zemmama who would not have come cheap. We've brought in about 7 (some of whom won't be cheap but I'm fairly certain that the players gone cover the players in for wages). Fine. I get all that.

So when we were told that the infrastructure spending will allow us to invest all monies in the team in future, what they really meant was "we'll spend it all on the team as long as we balance the books elsewhere at the club and the overall revenue doesn't drop". There is always some reason why the team is suffering. As I see it, the Board have two choices - they increase the revenue by any means possible (we've discussed the details a few times before), improve the team as a result and see the revenue increase even further when lapsed supporters are tempted back or they instead concentrate on getting the costs to fit the existing [falling] revenue, the team gets worse, more STs are not renewed and they have to start cutting costs again to fit the lower revenue.

At the moment, it seems like they are doing the second option. If that is correct, it could be disastrous long-term.

The bit in bold is the backbone of this particular debate - your post is assumption filled as it could be - put another way you have no idea of the financial goings on, ins and outs etc.

Your second paragraph is right, but why should it be, as many think, the responsibility of Hibs to make the first move. They have kept ST prices down, offered flexable ways to pay for them and effectively said if you are a Hibs fan come and buy one. I have not doubt if 1000 people went down today and bought a season ticket Sheridon would be signed, but you get what you pay for and unfortunatly perhaps we have a team that reflects the fickle element of our support.

At the end of the day if you are a Hibs fan and in a position to do so, buy a season ticket or get along to as many games as possible, if you are not, and dont have any intention of going to any game then dont bother, but dont moan about - the later of those persons will no doubt sit on here watching the matchday thread before moving to the comfort of there armchair to watch Arsenal play Bolton and Wigan play Norwich.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 10:55 AM
That the board delivered is up for debate (and we get that!) but the supporters certainly delivered on SUABC.

SUABC was to keep us at Easter Road, was it not? I thought the deal was we turn up (standing up and being counted), we wouldn't move to Straiton and the club would spend the season ticket money on the team. Which part did they not deliver?


The Board need to make a concerted effort in maximising turnover..... Hibs need to try and get more supporter's through the gates, and many are potentially wavering and some even talking of walking away forever.... The Board need to make the Club vibrant, exciting, so that these potentially lapsed fans are re-reunited with the Club in an all embracing way

Completely agree.:top marks

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Okay - we've brought in, in excess of, £1m in transfer fees and spent no more than £200k (but more than likely nowhere near it). We're now reportedly offering £20k for a capped player that we evidently want. We've let around 20 players go, including Riordan, Miller, Bamba, Stokes and Zemmama who would not have come cheap. We've brought in about 7 (some of whom won't be cheap but I'm fairly certain that the players gone cover the players in for wages). Fine. I get all that.

So when we were told that the infrastructure spending will allow us to invest all monies in the team in future, what they really meant was "we'll spend it all on the team as long as we balance the books elsewhere at the club and the overall revenue doesn't drop". There is always some reason why the team is suffering. As I see it, the Board have two choices - they increase the revenue by any means possible (we've discussed the details a few times before), improve the team as a result and see the revenue increase even further when lapsed supporters are tempted back or they instead concentrate on getting the costs to fit the existing [falling] revenue, the team gets worse, more STs are not renewed and they have to start cutting costs again to fit the lower revenue.

At the moment, it seems like they are doing the second option. If that is correct, it could be disastrous long-term.

Edit: There is no suggesting that we should increase debt in this post before I have to reply to someone pointing that out.

It's also possible that: -

- We do go out and spend a bit more and it doesn't work out and we have another poor season, have to get more players in in January and suffer even more cutbacks next season, with even less ST holders and even more debt to manage. We could even have to sack our manager which would cost us money too;

- We get two more strikers and a RB this season and do not very well again, have another poor season and have to try again next season, with less of a budget but similar level of manageable debt;

- We get two more strikers and a RB this season and we do well, finishing in the top 6 and playing some nice stuff. People come back and more of a budget is available next season.

Whatever choice the board make will be a calculated risk, but some of the choices have considerably worse potential consequences than others. As Matty has pointed out, the posters who are arguing against spending more would love to get more expensive players in, it's just that we are aware that it in no way will give any guarantees in terms of results and gate receipts - everyone arguing for a bigger spend is acting as if everything will 100% fall into place and the money will be proved to have been a good investment (conveniently forgetting that it didn't work out for JC, Mixu and Yogi).

It's also unfair to say that the board should be increasing revenue "by whatever means possible" when they're being criticised for the prices for STs and PATG.

Judas Iscariot
21-07-2011, 11:02 AM
They have given several reasons and provided several incentives to renew. You have to want to see them though. I think you know what I meant with "reasons"... A couple of decent, exciting signings other than 2 ex players who approached the club themselves..

blackpoolhibs
21-07-2011, 11:03 AM
The Board need to make a concerted effort in maximising turnover..... Hibs need to try and get more supporter's through the gates, and many are potentially wavering and some even talking of walking away forever.... The Board need to make the Club vibrant, exciting, so that these potentially lapsed fans are re-reunited with the Club in an all embracing way

BF, how do the club achieve this? :dunno: More and more fans are just fed up with this one step forward, then two steps back. :confused:

smurf
21-07-2011, 11:05 AM
SUABC was to keep us at Easter Road, was it not? I thought the deal was we turn up (standing up and being counted), we wouldn't move to Straiton and the club would spend the season ticket money on the team. Which part did they not deliver?

I never said that they didn't deliver. I said it was up for debate. Don't start putting words in my mouth.:wink:

I just find it quite interesting that you choose to praise the board for SUABC but not the Hibs supporters who actually did SUABC.

I do credit the board for turning around our financial position. But lets remember it wasn't a financial position that they inherited... It was a financial position that happened on their watch.

Also, i don't believe that the whole SUABC made any real difference. In the sense that folk didn't rush out the door to purchase season tickets or PATG in increasing numbers because of SUABC.

It happened IMHO because of the quality youngsters breaking through and the brand of football we played under Mowbray.

And ultimately it was they youngsters later sold off (quite rightly IMHO) that helped the board turn around the financial position.

So yes some credit to the board but more so to the supporters IMHO.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 11:06 AM
The Board need to make a concerted effort in maximising turnover..... Hibs need to try and get more supporter's through the gates, and many are potentially wavering and some even talking of walking away forever.... The Board need to make the Club vibrant, exciting, so that these potentially lapsed fans are re-reunited with the Club in an all embracing way

The last time they achieved that was by the appointment of the right manager, not by spending more than we can afford.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 11:12 AM
I never said that they didn't deliver. I said it was up for debate. Don't start putting words in my mouth.:wink:

I just find it quite interesting that you choose to praise the board for SUABC but not the Hibs supporters who actually did SUABC.

I do credit the board for turning around our financial position. But lets remember it wasn't a financial position that they inherited... It was a financial position that happened on their watch.

Also, i don't believe that the whole SUABC made any real difference. In the sense that folk didn't rush out the door to purchase season tickets or PATG in increasing numbers because of SUABC.

It happened IMHO because of the quality youngsters breaking through and the brand of football we played under Mowbray.

And ultimately it was they youngsters later sold off (quite rightly IMHO) that helped the board turn around the financial position.

So yes some credit to the board but more so to the supporters IMHO.

Apologies if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, though the phrase "That the board delivered is up for debate..." suggests that there is a theory that they didn't, hence the question to ask which one of the stated aims of SUABC they didn't deliver on.

Of course the fans deserve huge credit for SUABC, I don't think I've ever read anyone suggest otherwise. However, Cropley used SUABC as though it was some sort of relevant stick to beat the club with - I don't think that was either reasonable, relevant, or fair. Are the fans still SUABC? Well, 7k of us are. Would our transfer window look different if 10-12k of us were SUABC this season? I think so. The board promised they'd use the money on the team. They are accountable for that promise. If we SUABC they'd have to be good to their word.

The board oversaw the progress of the young players, they hired the manager that brought the entertaining play to Easter Road, btw.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 11:17 AM
I never said that they didn't deliver. I said it was up for debate. Don't start putting words in my mouth.:wink:

I just find it quite interesting that you choose to praise the board for SUABC but not the Hibs supporters who actually did SUABC.

I do credit the board for turning around our financial position. But lets remember it wasn't a financial position that they inherited... It was a financial position that happened on their watch.

Also, i don't believe that the whole SUABC made any real difference. In the sense that folk didn't rush out the door to purchase season tickets or PATG in increasing numbers because of SUABC.

It happened IMHO because of the quality youngsters breaking through and the brand of football we played under Mowbray.

And ultimately it was they youngsters later sold off (quite rightly IMHO) that helped the board turn around the financial position.

So yes some credit to the board but more so to the supporters IMHO.

It's a bit of a confused post IMO, Smurf. Firstly, the board did what they promised with SUABC, so I don't see where there's room for debate. Secondy, you're saying that the supporters deserve credit for standing up and being counted, but then that they only came back because they were watching an entertaining team - I think the supporters do deserve credit for SUABC, but because many did make an effort to come and watch a struggling team under BW. If you truly believe that supporters only came back because of the entertaining football that Hibs were playing (which obviously was a huge help), why do supporters deserve credit for being entertained?

FWIW, the club went into £17M worth of debt doing what many people are advocating now - spend money that isn't there and you're guaranteed to get it back in spades (back then it was the Sky money). The problems come when the money doesn't come back at all, never mind in spades. STF could've placed us in administration and just ****ed off, but instead he put the people in place that allowed us to stay at ER, finish in the top 6 six years running, win the League Cup, qualify for Europe twice, build the academy and finish the stadium.

smurf
21-07-2011, 11:20 AM
Apologies if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, though the phrase "That the board delivered is up for debate..." suggests that there is a theory that they didn't, hence the question to ask which one of the stated aims of SUABC they didn't deliver on.

Of course the fans deserve huge credit for SUABC, I don't think I've ever read anyone suggest otherwise. However, Cropley used SUABC as though it was some sort of relevant stick to beat the club with - I don't think that was either reasonable, relevant, or fair. Are the fans still SUABC? Well, 7k of us are. Would our transfer window look different if 10-12k of us were SUABC this season? I think so. The board promised they'd use the money on the team. They are accountable for that promise. If we SUABC they'd have to be good to their word.

The board oversaw the progress of the young players, they hired the manager that brought the entertaining play to Easter Road, btw.

Fair and reasonable points.

I remember back in the early 90's we had Dougie Cromb coming out with statements along the lines of "Every penny of season ticket money will be put into the team...". And they did with much much smaller season ticket numbers than now sign Keith Wright 1991 500K, Darren Jackson 1992 425K, Michael O'neil 225K 1993 & Kevin McCallister 200K 1993, Pat Mcginlay 420K 1994...

Then it changed into more 'Every penny spent on the squad' that included wages. Maybe fair enough in the Bosman era.

However, in those years and examples i've highlighted as a season ticket holder you really felt that your money spent had made a difference on the park.

And i don't think folk feel like that anymore. I know i certainly don't 'feel' the money i've shelled out this summer for two season tickets has made any real difference (although of course it has).

Beefster
21-07-2011, 11:25 AM
It's also possible that: -

- We do go out and spend a bit more and it doesn't work out and we have another poor season, have to get more players in in January and suffer even more cutbacks next season, with even less ST holders and even more debt to manage. We could even have to sack our manager which would cost us money too;

- We get two more strikers and a RB this season and do not very well again, have another poor season and have to try again next season, with less of a budget but similar level of manageable debt;

- We get two more strikers and a RB this season and we do well, finishing in the top 6 and playing some nice stuff. People come back and more of a budget is available next season.

Whatever choice the board make will be a calculated risk, but some of the choices have considerably worse potential consequences than others. As Matty has pointed out, the posters who are arguing against spending more would love to get more expensive players in, it's just that we are aware that it in no way will give any guarantees in terms of results and gate receipts - everyone arguing for a bigger spend is acting as if everything will 100% fall into place and the money will be proved to have been a good investment (conveniently forgetting that it didn't work out for JC, Mixu and Yogi).

It's also unfair to say that the board should be increasing revenue "by whatever means possible" when they're being criticised for the prices for STs and PATG.

That was reference to previous conversations about increasing revenue and how our board are extremely conservative. In no way was I suggesting that the existing customer base should be asked for even more money unless it is for something away from the traditional "buy an ST" or "buy a strip" stuff.

I think your suggestions are about cutting costs to fit the falling revenue and hoping for the best. Again, incredibly conservative and is doing absolutely nothing pro-active to break the cycle.

I'm not sure if you saw it but I wasn't advocating spending more until we brought in more.


What would the board have to gain by not providing all available money to the manager?

I've never once said that they haven't made everything possible available to him or are holding stuff back. If that is what is coming across, I'm obviously explaining myself awfully.


The bit in bold is the backbone of this particular debate - your post is assumption filled as it could be - put another way you have no idea of the financial goings on, ins and outs etc.

Your second paragraph is right, but why should it be, as many think, the responsibility of Hibs to make the first move. They have kept ST prices down, offered flexable ways to pay for them and effectively said if you are a Hibs fan come and buy one. I have not doubt if 1000 people went down today and bought a season ticket Sheridon would be signed, but you get what you pay for and unfortunatly perhaps we have a team that reflects the fickle element of our support.

At the end of the day if you are a Hibs fan and in a position to do so, buy a season ticket or get along to as many games as possible, if you are not, and dont have any intention of going to any game then dont bother, but dont moan about - the later of those persons will no doubt sit on here watching the matchday thread before moving to the comfort of there armchair to watch Arsenal play Bolton and Wigan play Norwich.

First paragraph - Every discussion about Hibs' finances, unless they have been published, is full of assumptions. My assumptions are 'ball park' right. I knew someone would use the "I'm going to dismiss it all because it's not documented fact" line though. Feel free to dismiss it.

Second - Why should it be up to the Board to make the first move in increasing revenues? Am I reading this right? You know they are a business, right?

Third - I have an ST and have done for about the last 15 seasons so that's irrelevant to me.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 11:26 AM
Fair and reasonable points.

I remember back in the early 90's we had Dougie Cromb coming out with statements along the lines of "Every penny of season ticket money will be put into the team...". And they did with much much smaller season ticket numbers than now sign Keith Wright 1991 500K, Darren Jackson 1992 425K, Michael O'neil 225K 1993 & Kevin McCallister 200K 1993, Pat Mcginlay 420K 1994...

Then it changed into more 'Every penny spent on the squad' that included wages. Maybe fair enough in the Bosman era.

However, in those years and examples i've highlighted as a season ticket holder you really felt that your money spent had made a difference on the park.

And i don't think folk feel like that anymore. I know i certainly don't 'feel' the money i've shelled out this summer for two season tickets has made any real difference (although of course it has).

Smurf the reason you don't feel the money you've shelled out has made any real difference is because there aren't enough others doing it. How far do you think your £400 goes? It's a drop in the ocean for the overall cost of the squad. Our season ticket money is barely keeping the squad ticking over Smurf. We desperately need more, and I know that it takes a good product on the park to get that, but the stark reality on both sides is we are where we are with it.

If we filled the ground with season ticket holders you'd feel that your season ticket money made a massive difference. 7000 of us doing it is pishing in the ocean though.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 11:31 AM
Fair and reasonable points.

I remember back in the early 90's we had Dougie Cromb coming out with statements along the lines of "Every penny of season ticket money will be put into the team...". And they did with much much smaller season ticket numbers than now sign Keith Wright 1991 500K, Darren Jackson 1992 425K, Michael O'neil 225K 1993 & Kevin McCallister 200K 1993, Pat Mcginlay 420K 1994...

Then it changed into more 'Every penny spent on the squad' that included wages. Maybe fair enough in the Bosman era.

However, in those years and examples i've highlighted as a season ticket holder you really felt that your money spent had made a difference on the park.

And i don't think folk feel like that anymore. I know i certainly don't 'feel' the money i've shelled out this summer for two season tickets has made any real difference (although of course it has).

The key differences between then and now Smurf are that wages were much smaller (I'm sure I read in the paper that Darren Jackson's first contract with Hibs was £800 pw basic) and first team squads were much smaller (only 13 stripped every Saturday) - add to that the pre-Bosman days and there were no wholesale changes every summer, and free transfers were practically non existant. We paid more for quality because we didn't need as many players. We maybe had 2/3 arriving every summer, with a couple going out, and theoretically could spend all the ST money on a couple of players. Wages pre-Bosman were a fraction of what they are now, and were much less of a concern (though still very much a concern, obviously).

smurf
21-07-2011, 11:39 AM
It's a bit of a confused post IMO, Smurf. Firstly, the board did what they promised with SUABC, so I don't see where there's room for debate.

It would be interesting to read the boards 'Stay At Easter Road Business Plan' that the put together early 2004. From memory a lot didn't happen. You could argue that it didn't need to happen as the supporters later in the year came back in increasing numbers.


Secondy, you're saying that the supporters deserve credit for standing up and being counted, but then that they only came back because they were watching an entertaining team - I think the supporters do deserve credit for SUABC, but because many did make an effort to come and watch a struggling team under BW.

Think your memory is playing up with you - supposed to be me that's "Confused" remember....:greengrin

If you look at the attendances in the second part of season 2003-2004 when SUABC had been launched there was a complete slump in gates under Williamson.

IMHO he was heading for the sack. Fortunately Luggy recommended The Plumber to Plymouth. I bet RP had a curved tache for quite a few hours....


If you truly believe that supporters only came back because of the entertaining football that Hibs were playing (which obviously was a huge help), why do supporters deserve credit for being entertained?

The crowds increased because of the quality of the football. I mind IIRC we went 4-1 up v Dundee at home. The football was fantastic. One touch etc etc. It may well have not been that great but compared to the fair we were served under 'Boaby' i think most of us left ER that day raving and spreading positivity... Despite letting Dundee back into it 4-4...:greengrin

To answer your point though.

We have a hardcore. And we have a non hardcore. The hardcore will always find reason to buy season tickets and turn up. The non hardcore not so.

However, the reality is that we can't survive as a football club with just the hardcore. We would in effect be Dundee Utd...


FWIW, the club went into £17M worth of debt doing what many people are advocating now - spend money that isn't there and you're guaranteed to get it back in spades (back then it was the Sky money).

Who is advocating that? I really don't know of many if any Hibby looking for the club to splash the cash... To go daft. To attempt to compete with Yamenomics...The £17 Million wasn't because in the main the playing staff. As Sir Tom Farmer explained to me and a few other Bouncers it was in the main Mortgages. He asked those of us that owned our homes if we looked upon our mortgage as a debt in the sense that you owe the credit card a few quid or whatever...


The problems come when the money doesn't come back at all, never mind in spades. STF could've placed us in administration and just ****ed off, but instead he put the people in place that allowed us to stay at ER, finish in the top 6 six years running, win the League Cup, qualify for Europe twice, build the academy and finish the stadium.

What people did he put in place? The main people or person if you like has been in place since 1996.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 11:44 AM
That was reference to previous conversations about increasing revenue and how our board are extremely conservative. In no way was I suggesting that the existing customer base should be asked for even more money unless it is for something away from the traditional "buy an ST" or "buy a strip" stuff.

I think your suggestions are about cutting costs to fit the falling revenue and hoping for the best. Again, incredibly conservative and is doing absolutely nothing pro-active to break the cycle.

I'm not sure if you saw it but I wasn't advocating spending more until we brought in more.

I did see that Beefster and I do appreciate that you are not advocating a blind "speculate to accumulate" policy and have come up with suggestions as to how to increase revenue. But my point would always be that (and I don't know that they're not) even if the board tried to increase revenue usuing whatever means possible, it's still perfectly possible that revenue may not increase that much.

My suggestions are exactly that - work within budgets and try and get the best possible outcome - if that counts as hoping for the best (and it is, essentially), that's fine. It's worked in the past, it can work again - but if that's classed as being conservative, then your plan can be classed as pure conjecture. The cycle can be broken both ways, but both ways can also fail to break the cycle.

smurf
21-07-2011, 11:44 AM
Smurf the reason you don't feel the money you've shelled out has made any real difference is because there aren't enough others doing it. How far do you think your £400 goes? It's a drop in the ocean for the overall cost of the squad. Our season ticket money is barely keeping the squad ticking over Smurf. We desperately need more, and I know that it takes a good product on the park to get that, but the stark reality on both sides is we are where we are with it.

If we filled the ground with season ticket holders you'd feel that your season ticket money made a massive difference. 7000 of us doing it is pishing in the ocean though.

Yes all true but in previous years folks have shelled out and lets be honest we've been very poor since we won the CIS cup over 4 years ago.

If i'm debating with a Hibby refusing to renew...

"..hey but listen if you do renew and more do then that will give the club a lot more money to improve the playing side... Imagine what the extra money that generated by 3000 additional season ticket could do?"

Answer

"..we'd have the numbers as per last season and the season before that and the season before that - What difference was there then?"

I'd be stumped really...

down the slope
21-07-2011, 11:47 AM
The bit in bold is the backbone of this particular debate - your post is assumption filled as it could be - put another way you have no idea of the financial goings on, ins and outs etc.

Your second paragraph is right, but why should it be, as many think, the responsibility of Hibs to make the first move. They have kept ST prices down, offered flexable ways to pay for them and effectively said if you are a Hibs fan come and buy one. I have not doubt if 1000 people went down today and bought a season ticket Sheridon would be signed, but you get what you pay for and unfortunatly perhaps we have a team that reflects the fickle element of our support.

At the end of the day if you are a Hibs fan and in a position to do so, buy a season ticket or get along to as many games as possible, if you are not, and dont have any intention of going to any game then dont bother, but dont moan about - the later of those persons will no doubt sit on here watching the matchday thread before moving to the comfort of there armchair to watch Arsenal play Bolton and Wigan play Norwich.

Of course i will moan when i think the governance of our club is seriously flawed !, Fickle you say , i have made the first move for fifty years and you ask the fans to give that lot more cash to waste on Duff managers and giving us some of the worst football ever seen and you back them up !!! incredible . The proof of the pudding will be on Sunday when when you have a look around the ground at the empty spaces and this will be the boards fault and not the fans , ​

Albion Hibs
21-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Of course i will moan when i think the governance of our club is seriously flawed !, Fickle you say , i have made the first move for fifty years and you ask the fans to give that lot more cash to waste on Duff managers and giving us some of the worst football ever seen and you back them up !!! incredible . The proof of the pudding will be on Sunday when when you have a look around the ground at the empty spaces and this will be the boards fault and not the fans , ​

I doubt it, at least when I look round I will be looking at the fans - the followers will be at home comfying up with the mrs and some diluting juice getting ready to watch the game on sky sports no doubt. I would also say it is the "fans" who do not attends fault, the club offered them access to the stadium....they will be chosing not to support hibs.

I dont think it is incredible, I was born and raised a hibs fan and taken along to as many games as my family could afford to take me to...it has never been as case of I am just not going to watch hibs anymore unless they buy this player, or that manager, or have this board, build a third tier to the stadium, rub my belly and make me feel really nice. Some of our fans are far to desperate for a cuddle. Get over it, its a game of football, if you dont go and watch it you know you will regret it.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 12:01 PM
It would be interesting to read the boards 'Stay At Easter Road Business Plan' that the put together early 2004. From memory a lot didn't happen. You could argue that it didn't need to happen as the supporters later in the year came back in increasing numbers.

I was at the meeting where they outlined everything that needed to happen. Both sides kept their part of the bargain, which is why SUABC worked.


Think your memory is playing up with you - supposed to be me that's "Confused" remember....:greengrin

If you look at the attendances in the second part of season 2003-2004 when SUABC had been launched there was a complete slump in gates under Williamson.

IMHO he was heading for the sack. Fortunately Luggy recommended The Plumber to Plymouth. I bet RP had a curved tache for quite a few hours....

Yes, and many more may have abandoned the team had it not been for SUABC and the dire consequences of it not working. Being at ER was pretty much awful, but if going through it meant staying at ER and experiencing much better times, it was worth it. I can believe how quickly it turned around, I honestly thought that with the wage cuts, the loss of TV money and the dire state of football at ER that we would be bottom 6 for a few years, perhaps even struggling to stay in the SPL - the board didn't make any bones about the fact that that may be the case too. Thankfully appointing the right manager made a world of difference - TM's teams made standing up to be counted much, much easier, but many were already doing so from BW's era.



The crowds increased because of the quality of the football. I mind IIRC we went 4-1 up v Dundee at home. The football was fantastic. One touch etc etc. It may well have not been that great but compared to the fair we were served under 'Boaby' i think most of us left ER that day raving and spreading positivity... Despite letting Dundee back into it 4-4...:greengrin

To answer your point though.

We have a hardcore. And we have a non hardcore. The hardcore will always find reason to buy season tickets and turn up. The non hardcore not so.

However, the reality is that we can't survive as a football club with just the hardcore. We would in effect be Dundee Utd...

I don't disagree with the vast majority of that, but we could survive with the hardcore, we just couldn't prosper. And FWIW, I wouldn't have minded having the couple of seasons that Dundee Utd have just had - and it shows you what can be done, again, with the right manager spending a budget very wisely.


Who is advocating that? I really don't know of many if any Hibby looking for the club to splash the cash... To go daft. To attempt to compete with Yamenomics...The £17 Million wasn't because in the main the playing staff. As Sir Tom Farmer explained to me and a few other Bouncers it was in the main Mortgages. He asked those of us that owned our homes if we looked upon our mortgage as a debt in the sense that you owe the credit card a few quid or whatever...

I'm not saying you are, but you can't seriously tell me you've not seen many posters on here argue that we should speculate to accumulate. To be fair, most of them don't get on board for further discussion and many posts are of the flippant variety - but they're still there.



What people did he put in place? The main people or person if you like has been in place since 1996.

I'm perfectly aware of how long RP has been here, but if STF didn't think he was capable of being in charge of the club when it needed to be turned around, do you think he wouldn't have removed him? He had faith in RP to get the right people to help with the whole process of staying at ER, getting out of debt and getting the fans to SUABC. Rod has been here 15 years but many people have come and gone in that time, some of whom have done a very good job. Colin McNeill for example, who was working for a mediation company during the fans forums was given a marketing role with us shortly afterwards.

matty_f
21-07-2011, 12:05 PM
Yes all true but in previous years folks have shelled out and lets be honest we've been very poor since we won the CIS cup over 4 years ago.

If i'm debating with a Hibby refusing to renew...

"..hey but listen if you do renew and more do then that will give the club a lot more money to improve the playing side... Imagine what the extra money that generated by 3000 additional season ticket could do?"

Answer

"..we'd have the numbers as per last season and the season before that and the season before that - What difference was there then?"

I'd be stumped really...

When we've had numbers we've put the best team we could out on the park. We were able to withstand and reject offers for Jones, Boozy, Fletcher, Brown, Murphy etc because the manager wanted to keep them. We've put the club in a better position and increased the spend on the team over those years. Stokes, Miller, Makalambay, AOB, Riordan, Murray, JJ - none of these guys came cheap.

Without the season tickets none of that would have been possible.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 12:09 PM
I doubt it, at least when I look round I will be looking at the fans - the followers will be at home comfying up with the mrs and some diluting juice getting ready to watch the game on sky sports no doubt. I would also say it is the "fans" who do not attends fault, the club offered them access to the stadium....they will be chosing not to support hibs.

I dont think it is incredible, I was born and raised a hibs fan and taken along to as many games as my family could afford to take me to...it has never been as case of I am just not going to watch hibs anymore unless they buy this player, or that manager, or have this board, build a third tier to the stadium, rub my belly and make me feel really nice. Some of our fans are far to desperate for a cuddle. Get over it, its a game of football, if you dont go and watch it you know you will regret it.

Excellent point. It's funny how many people deride the fact that our football club is run as sensibly as many other businesses, yet demand a customer service relationship.

There is always a leap of faith involved in buying a season ticket or paying to watch a game. That's football and it's supposed to be one of the main reasons we love it.

Beefster
21-07-2011, 12:18 PM
I did see that Beefster and I do appreciate that you are not advocating a blind "speculate to accumulate" policy and have come up with suggestions as to how to increase revenue. But my point would always be that (and I don't know that they're not) even if the board tried to increase revenue usuing whatever means possible, it's still perfectly possible that revenue may not increase that much.

My suggestions are exactly that - work within budgets and try and get the best possible outcome - if that counts as hoping for the best (and it is, essentially), that's fine. It's worked in the past, it can work again - but if that's classed as being conservative, then your plan can be classed as pure conjecture. The cycle can be broken both ways, but both ways can also fail to break the cycle.

Absolutely. I suppose it depends on your outlook. If they never look outside the 'couple of thousand up, couple of thousand down' cycle which revolves around performances (and to a lesser extent, the league standard, communications etc) then we'll never change anything beyond tinkering at the edges IMHO. They'll never fill ER as things stand.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 12:30 PM
Absolutely. I suppose it depends on your outlook. If they never look outside the 'couple of thousand up, couple of thousand down' cycle which revolves around performances (and to a lesser extent, the league standard, communications etc) then we'll never change anything beyond tinkering at the edges IMHO. They'll never fill ER as things stand.

I'm thinking more along the lines of it we get another Mowbray style appointment and team performance, we're in a much stronger position to push on from there than we were during TM's reign - players will still be sold but much, much more can be reinvested from the fees that we get. That would be our best chance to come close to filling the stadium IMO.

Again, we need the right manager in - I will forever be grateful to JC for the League Cup win, but things could have been a whole lot different now if someone else had been given the circa £500K spent on transfer fees, as well as money on all his other signings.

marinello59
21-07-2011, 12:47 PM
I think you know what I meant with "reasons"... A couple of decent, exciting signings other than 2 ex players who approached the club themselves..

Many fans were and are excited to see Ivan return. Personally I was delighted to see Garry O' back as I thought he would be well out of our price range. But never mind, let's just discount those signings because we didn't go begging them to come back.

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 01:19 PM
Many fans were and are excited to see Ivan return. Personally I was delighted to see Garry O' back as I thought he would be well out of our price range. But never mind, let's just discount those signings because we didn't go begging them to come back.

Yeah, after everyone crying out for more quality and players who actually cared about playing for Hibs, we sign two Hibbies who were excellent in their first spells for us. Ridiculous really.

Cropley10
21-07-2011, 01:30 PM
Yeah, after everyone crying out for more quality and players who actually cared about playing for Hibs, we sign two Hibbies who were excellent in their first spells for us. Ridiculous really.

Garry supports Celtc and He got released from his last club FFS.

Anyway we'll not have to worry about Sheridan any more he's away to the Saintees. Which is obviously good news.

marinello59
21-07-2011, 01:32 PM
Garry supports Celtc and He got released from his last club FFS.

Anyway we'll not have to worry about Sheridan any more he's away to the Saintees. Which is obviously good news.

Do you really think anybody thinks that?

Stevie Reid
21-07-2011, 01:37 PM
Garry supports Celtc and He got released from his last club FFS.

Anyway we'll not have to worry about Sheridan any more he's away to the Saintees. Which is obviously good news.

I think GOC is probably as much of a Celtic fan as John Robertson was a Hibbie when he played for Hearts - he cares about the club, and so what if he was released from his last club? Frank Sauzee was released, Russell Latapy was released; Nish, Rankin, O'Brien and Makalamby all required transfer fees.

Unbelievable negativity about what should be a very exciting signing for the club.

And why would Sheridan not signing be good news?

Cropley10
21-07-2011, 01:42 PM
Do you really think anybody thinks that?

There will be people on here who will try and spin that line, yes.

Or at least they will be utterly convinced it's not bad news, that everything possible was done, and so on and so on.

Maybe I should have said - which isn't really bad news?

matty_f
21-07-2011, 01:47 PM
There will be people on here who will try and spin that line, yes.

Or at least they will be utterly convinced it's not bad news, that everything possible was done, and so on and so on.

Maybe I should have said - which isn't really bad news?

Isn't whether or not it's bad news entirely subjective? Who are you to say whether someone is spinning it or now?

FWIW, I wanted Sheridan to sign and am disappointed that he hasn't. We'll see who we get and how he compares against Sheridan come the end of the season, and then I'll decide if it's good or bad news. At the moment, I'm not impressed by it.