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Mikey
18-07-2011, 08:47 AM
Can anyone give me an example of a club that has spent more than it earns to improve the playing squad and as a result of that has managed to increase attendances, increase sponsorship deals and improve the club's results?

The club has to still be in the black and have done it for more than five years.

wazoo1875
18-07-2011, 09:00 AM
The only club I can think of off the top of my head would maybe be Brighton whose crowds were limited with the lack of a stadium. They've now made it to the championship, have a good manager and have sold plenty of season tickets for their magnificent new stadium. All said, I'm speculating on the financial side of it though.
I would think it would be very tough for any club to meet all the criteria you specify.
FWIW I want hibs to live within our means, certainly in the current climate.

Caversham Green
18-07-2011, 09:03 AM
It happens frequently in the Championship - nearly every club that gets promoted to the EPL has a wage bill that's higher than its turnover. That's because they have an accumulation worth speculating for though. Promotion guarantees that clubs the size of Reading or Stoke will immediately quadruple (and more) their turnover for the next season and even if they get relegated their turnover for the next four seasons will be double what it was pre-promotion.

The problem in Scotland is that there's really nothing to speculate for other than third place in the league and the hope of the odd cup win. To guarantee the former you'd have to spend an awful lot more than the placing is worth, and the latter can never be guaranteed.

Mikey
18-07-2011, 09:03 AM
Any idea what Brighton get in terms of TV money compared to Hibs?

There's a gold star for anyone who can come up with a Scottish team :greengrin

wazoo1875
18-07-2011, 09:12 AM
Any idea what Brighton get in terms of TV money compared to Hibs?There's a gold star for anyone who can come up with a Scottish team :greengrin It says in this article £656,000 per season in league 1 which is about to be chopped http://www.ciderspace.co.uk/asp/news/news.asp?NewsItemId=14780 Scottish club doin it, I dinnae think so ;-)

down the slope
18-07-2011, 09:25 AM
Can anyone give me an example of a club that has spent more than it earns to improve the playing squad and as a result of that has managed to increase attendances, increase sponsorship deals and improve the club's results?

The club has to still be in the black and have done it for more than five years.
And your point is ?.

Viva_Palmeiras
18-07-2011, 09:32 AM
Can anyone give me an example of a club that has spent more than it earns to improve the playing squad and as a result of that has managed to increase attendances, increase sponsorship deals and improve the club's results?The club has to still be in the black and have done it for more than five years. Rangers 9 in a row era but must have all been red but by the definition you gave would folks not be in the red anyway?

Last Minute
18-07-2011, 09:45 AM
Can anyone give me an example of a club that has spent more than it earns to improve the playing squad and as a result of that has managed to increase attendances, increase sponsorship deals and improve the club's results?

The club has to still be in the black and have done it for more than five years.


Hearts :na na:

bigger attendances, wonga sponsorship deals 400%, and in the black as all the dept is Romanov's

Last Minute
18-07-2011, 09:49 AM
I want my Gold Star :greengrin

jonty
18-07-2011, 10:13 AM
How are Arsenal doing these day?

Kaiser1962
18-07-2011, 10:17 AM
It happens frequently in the Championship - nearly every club that gets promoted to the EPL has a wage bill that's higher than its turnover. That's because they have an accumulation worth speculating for though. Promotion guarantees that clubs the size of Reading or Stoke will immediately quadruple (and more) their turnover for the next season and even if they get relegated their turnover for the next four seasons will be double what it was pre-promotion.

The problem in Scotland is that there's really nothing to speculate for other than third place in the league and the hope of the odd cup win. To guarantee the former you'd have to spend an awful lot more than the placing is worth, and the latter can never be guaranteed.


While moving from the Championship to the EPL proves lucrative there are examples of clubs who have tried to then break into the top of the EPL and suffered financial consequences because of it.

In Scotland Romanov has spent IRO £60m, over and above Hearts income, during his tenure and you have to ask if they have advanced beyond where they were when Robinson had them. I would say no tbh.

To put it into perspective £60m is, very roughly, what the OF bring in during a season and what ManU bring in in TV money alone in a season.

flash
18-07-2011, 10:18 AM
Or put another way. can anyone think of an organisation that consistently replaces its star performers with ones of inferior quality yet charges more to watch said second rate fare?

Kaiser1962
18-07-2011, 10:20 AM
And your point is ?.


If you spend more than you have someone ends up picking up the tab, one way or another.

Kaiser1962
18-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Or put another way. can anyone think of an organisation that consistently replaces its star performers with ones of inferior quality yet charges more to watch said second rate fare?


You have a choice.

flash
18-07-2011, 10:43 AM
You have a choice.

Yes we all do. my choice is to watch my team but sadly many others are choosing not to.

Ray_
18-07-2011, 11:00 AM
You have a choice.

And the choice for many is not to bother, that's why we are losing more and more money.

Brebners Bookie
18-07-2011, 11:06 AM
Can anyone give me an example of a club that has spent more than it earns to improve the playing squad and as a result of that has managed to increase attendances, increase sponsorship deals and improve the club's results?

The club has to still be in the black and have done it for more than five years.


Hearts:rolleyes:

ScottB
18-07-2011, 11:31 AM
It's not possible in Scotland, as there is simply nothing to accumulate.

Even the Old Firm are struggling to sustain their levels of expenditure, with the pot of Champions League cash an unlikely event at best even for the Champions now. The best we can hope for is third. How much more does that bring in than finishing mid table? A few hundred grand at best? Or put another way, one average player a year.

I see people wanting us to do this, to spend more, pay more etc. But it ignores that we already spend more than all but the Old Firm and Hearts. Surely the quest should be to make better use of what we do spend first before throwing yet more money at the problem?

down-the-slope
18-07-2011, 12:16 PM
Any idea what Brighton get in terms of TV money compared to Hibs?

There's a gold star for anyone who can come up with a Scottish team :greengrin

Medowbank....when they transformed into Livi :rolleyes:

Keith_M
18-07-2011, 12:27 PM
Celtc.


They were dire before Fergus McCann arrived with a cr*p stadium. He rescued the club, invested in a stadium rebuild and new players and they have since won numerous trophies, are in a better financial state than most clubs, have the largest average attendance and the largest football stadium in Scotland.



Now, I fully expect the OP to backtrack and add extra criteria to his question but the above meets all his requirements, including the one of being a Scottish club he added later.



However, it's obvious what the intent was of the question and, perversely enough, I don't think Hibs can speculate at the Fergus McCann level either. That said, they have to spend money on a few more players before the season starts, otherwise we're in for yet another poor season with falling attendances.

greenginger
18-07-2011, 12:28 PM
I don't think its a case of speculate to accumulate with Hibs right now.

Its more a case of speculate to survive ! If we don't bring in a few seasoned pro's to bolster a thread bare squad I fear for us this season.

Their would be no Sauzee, Latapy Etc to get us out of Div. 1 at the first attempt.

Col2
18-07-2011, 12:37 PM
Can anyone give me an example of a club that has spent more than it earns to improve the playing squad and as a result of that has managed to increase attendances, increase sponsorship deals and improve the club's results?

The club has to still be in the black and have done it for more than five years.

Mikey - I don't think anyone is suggesting we go down the road Hearts have gone but surely, surely we can afford to bring in 4-5 players on more than the suggested £1400 per week we are quoted. It's not like we have a big squad and the key suggestion at the end of the season was that CC wanted a smaller squad which assumes more money to play with but less headcount. What have we seen? The opposite.

Sheridan is a good example. Young and talented and if we pushed the boat out a little more but seen it as an investment knowing he would move on for a fee in the future then we would all be up for that. We are neither buying seasoned pros (who cost a premium) or investing in younger players with a view to getting a return. Season ticket prices go up regardless.

The club have no real option - they have to invest a little more to ensure attendances don't drop even more or make it clear that they need outside investment/new buyer to take over as we are going backwards.

JustSimplyHibs
18-07-2011, 12:50 PM
Any idea what Brighton get in terms of TV money compared to Hibs?

There's a gold star for anyone who can come up with a Scottish team :greengrin

Rangers in the 80's under Souness.

Celtic in the 90's with Fergus McCann

Hearts in the naughties.........still waiting.

Livingston when they first formed.

Beefster
18-07-2011, 01:01 PM
There's a presumption amongst most of those against increasing the budget that those calling for 'speculation' want an unrealistic increase. I doubt if that's actually the case.

In any case, if the club did more to increase custom and turnover, we might not have people calling for speculation at all. In the meantime, they are presiding over a dramatic fall in the customer base whilst, from the outside, doing the [effective] square root of **** all to arrest the slide.

Cropley10
18-07-2011, 01:11 PM
And your point is ?.

The point is speculating to accumulate doesn't work. Hibs are doing the right thing as always :rolleyes:

Makaveli
18-07-2011, 01:13 PM
This pish is why we are where we are. A kool-aid like dichotomy of accept the garbage Petrie serves up or go bust. :rolleyes:

down-the-slope
18-07-2011, 01:13 PM
Mikey - I don't think anyone is suggesting we go down the road Hearts have gone but surely, surely we can afford to bring in 4-5 players on more than the suggested £1400 per week we are quoted. It's not like we have a big squad and the key suggestion at the end of the season was that CC wanted a smaller squad which assumes more money to play with but less headcount. What have we seen? The opposite.

Sheridan is a good example. Young and talented and if we pushed the boat out a little more but seen it as an investment knowing he would move on for a fee in the future then we would all be up for that. We are neither buying seasoned pros (who cost a premium) or investing in younger players with a view to getting a return. Season ticket prices go up regardless.

The club have no real option - they have to invest a little more to ensure attendances don't drop even more or make it clear that they need outside investment/new buyer to take over as we are going backwards.

No hes not :rolleyes:...a player on 14k a week....the only way we can deal is a short term loan where his club pay most of that (or he takes big cut and they still pay chunk) on the basis that he plays in country he wants...current club cuts current wage bill and player and current club hope for potential purchaser at end of loan....only thing for us is decent player we could never really affard for short term fix...no investment for us.

Thats the reality of where we are in the money dominated game...Stokes was a very one off opportunity....would be amazed if we every pulled off that kind of deal again...

smurf
18-07-2011, 01:19 PM
There's a presumption amongst most of those against increasing the budget that those calling for 'speculation' want an unrealistic increase. I doubt if that's actually the case.

In any case, if the club did more to increase custom and turnover, we might not have people calling for speculation at all. In the meantime, they are presiding over a dramatic fall in the customer base whilst, from the outside, doing the [effective] square root of **** all to arrest the slide.

Indeed. I've genuinely yet to meet any Hibby wanting or expecting us to go daft in the transfer market.

They do however expect better than only having one forward available for the opening day and no recognised right back.

My answer to the OP would be us.

We accumulated a few fair quid in recent years and didn't even need to speculate to get it. We reared it ourselves.

ancient hibee
18-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Say 5 players at £1400-call it £1700 with salary costs-roughly £400K anually about 1000 new STs-do you get the kind of player for that wage that'll put more bums on seats-don't know.

The Falcon
18-07-2011, 03:02 PM
And the choice for many is not to bother, that's why we are losing more and more money.


Then if the owners are wrong we will go out of business as surely as if we were spending money we didnt have. Lets see if we're still here in the next 10 years.

The Falcon
18-07-2011, 03:05 PM
There's a presumption amongst most of those against increasing the budget that those calling for 'speculation' want an unrealistic increase. I doubt if that's actually the case.

In any case, if the club did more to increase custom and turnover, we might not have people calling for speculation at all. In the meantime, they are presiding over a dramatic fall in the customer base whilst, from the outside, doing the [effective] square root of **** all to arrest the slide.

Paragraph 1- I think it's been proven quite conclusively by our neighbours that throwing money at something willy nilly achieves nothing.


Paragraph 2- Requires developing and new ideas. Needs radical thinking but its the only sensible way forward for clubs like Hibs.

WindyMiller
18-07-2011, 03:12 PM
Hearts:rolleyes:



They're in the black are they?

jonty
18-07-2011, 03:18 PM
For arguments sake, lets work it backwards with the players and wages, add in the operating costs (and any other costs) then figure out how many bums on seats we would need?

25 players squad, an average 5k a week all-in (bonuses etc)
6.5 million per year salarys for players only.
Thats 16,250 £400 season tickets.

Some speculative posts on here regarding players wages/bonuses etc indicate a lower base salary but high appearance money etc which may well take their total salaries up to the 5k mark.

Does the rest of the business 'wipe it's own nose' when it comes to profitability?

Scale it up and we'd only manage an average £6500 weekly wage (that makes 21125 adult ST).

jonty
18-07-2011, 03:19 PM
They're in the black are they?
blacks on white.
No - whites in black.
Blacks in court.

I give up.... :dizzy:

Andy74
18-07-2011, 05:49 PM
It's not possible in Scotland, as there is simply nothing to accumulate.

Even the Old Firm are struggling to sustain their levels of expenditure, with the pot of Champions League cash an unlikely event at best even for the Champions now. The best we can hope for is third. How much more does that bring in than finishing mid table? A few hundred grand at best? Or put another way, one average player a year.

I see people wanting us to do this, to spend more, pay more etc. But it ignores that we already spend more than all but the Old Firm and Hearts. Surely the quest should be to make better use of what we do spend first before throwing yet more money at the problem?

I can see the frustration but I think it's midirected.

Our budget has been good enough to get the likes of Murphy, Sproule, O'Connor, Riordan, Stokes, Miller, Boozy, Jones, Benji, Zemmama, Bamba, Stack and Brown. Probably a few decent ones I've missed.

It's surely just up to the managers to use it better and get these types of successes as opposed to the likes of Maka, O'Brien, JJ, Rankin, Nish, Hart and De Graaf who have also cost us decent money and haven't turned out so well.

Not guaranteed of course but a decent manager should get more wrong than right. We make spending money look difficult just now whilst the likes of Motherwell, Killie and Inverness have, in the short term anyway, got more out of cheaper players.

Caversham Green
18-07-2011, 06:14 PM
I can see the frustration but I think it's midirected.

Our budget has been good enough to get the likes of Murphy, Sproule, O'Connor, Riordan, Stokes, Miller, Boozy, Jones, Benji, Zemmama, Bamba, Stack and Brown. Probably a few decent ones I've missed.

It's surely just up to the managers to use it better and get these types of successes as opposed to the likes of Maka, O'Brien, JJ, Rankin, Nish, Hart and De Graaf who have also cost us decent money and haven't turned out so well.

Not guaranteed of course but a decent manager should get more wrong than right. We make spending money look difficult just now whilst the likes of Motherwell, Killie and Inverness have, in the short term anyway, got more out of cheaper players.

So we're already spending money to bring in players who look like good prospects (at least in the eyes of the manager at the time). Some succeed, others fail - surely that's the essence of speculation right there...

The problem is that to give us a better chance of accumulating - if that means improving our league positions and cup runs - we would have to speculate on a higher standard of player than we have done so far and that means a quantum step in the amount we pay, not just the incremental year on year increases we've seen in the last seven years. That increase would not be covered by the rewards of finishing third in the SPL or winning one of the domestic cups.

lapsedhibee
18-07-2011, 06:15 PM
Our budget has been good enough to get the likes of Murphy, Sproule, O'Connor, Riordan, Stokes, Miller, Boozy, Jones, Benji, Zemmama, Bamba, Stack and Brown. Probably a few decent ones I've missed.

It's surely just up to the managers to use it better and get these types of successes as opposed to the likes of Maka, O'Brien, JJ, Rankin, Nish, Hart and De Graaf who have also cost us decent money and haven't turned out so well.

We fitba fans have such short memories. Your lists make it look as if Hong Kong Thierry was never even here! :panic:

Big_D
19-07-2011, 05:11 AM
The point is speculating to accumulate doesn't work. Hibs are doing the right thing as always :rolleyes:

Yet crowds are dwindling suggesting to me that this isn't the case

HUTCHYHIBBY
19-07-2011, 05:47 AM
By all accounts the off field investment is pretty much completed, so, the longest transitional period I can remember should be coming to an end, I just expected us to be going forward as opposed to backwards as we appear to be doing.
You have to wonder if all the building for the future was worthwhile given the direction the game in this country is heading in.

Andy74
19-07-2011, 06:23 AM
Yet crowds are dwindling suggesting to me that this isn't the case

More to do with manager and team performance.

Crowds started quite well last year even after poor end to previous season. Downhill since then though.

Sandy
19-07-2011, 06:44 AM
By all accounts the off field investment is pretty much completed, so, the longest transitional period I can remember should be coming to an end, I just expected us to be going forward as opposed to backwards as we appear to be doing.
You have to wonder if all the building for the future was worthwhile given the direction the game in this country is heading in.

:top marks The investment ON the pitch is now what we need to see.

Mikey
19-07-2011, 07:24 AM
Rangers in the 80's under Souness.

Celtic in the 90's with Fergus McCann

Hearts in the naughties.........still waiting.

Livingston when they first formed.

You forgot Dundee and Motherwell in that list.

Mikey
19-07-2011, 07:25 AM
The point is speculating to accumulate doesn't work. Hibs are doing the right thing as always :rolleyes:

It doesn't though, does it.

Kaiser1962
19-07-2011, 07:35 AM
The only person I can think off who has made a significant amount of money was Fergus McCann and it wasnt that he did anything innovative except that he took a club, which was one of the biggest in Britain, if not Europe, at the time, which was being run very very badly and managed it properly. While Celtic were bust when Fergus took them over he still had a good starting point.

It could be argued that Celtic's overall standing in the game, like most of Scotland's, has went backwards since though.

Cropley10
19-07-2011, 07:40 AM
It doesn't though, does it.

Nor does selling all your quality players and replacing them with nobodies.

Dwindling crowds, dwindling interest, poor, poor football. And an obsession with trading in the black - at all costs.

Almost everyone on here and who attends ER can see the positions that needed strengthening - yet, here we are again nickle and diming, offering peanuts, waiting for the bargain basement to open so we can save a few quid.

No-one is advocating going crazy, but the transfer activity since the end of last season has, frankly, been pathetic. It's a two-way street - if the Board are worried about ST renewals then they should think about what might encourage people to buy one.

down the slope
19-07-2011, 07:48 AM
No question not having debt is the way to go but i would also suggest that we had something decent to watch on the pitch which is after all the whole point of being a football club !. I am always amazed that people on here are confident that now we have every development known to man in place we will start to be a force in Scottish football again , my question would be why we have not been doing this in tandem with the off field developments ? one does not preclude the other. The low debt / finished stadium that is used as an excuse for having to watch some of the worst football i have ever seen is just pure hokum , until we get rid of an accountant choosing managers and deciding what players will be paid then we will always be in a downward spiral under this disaster of a chairman.

The Falcon
19-07-2011, 07:50 AM
No question not having debt is the way to go but i would also suggest that we had something decent to watch on the pitch which is after all the whole point of being a football club !. I am always amazed that people on here are confident that now we have every development known to man in place we will start to be a force in Scottish football again , my question would be why we have not been doing this in tandem with the off field developments ? one does not preclude the other. The low debt / finished stadium that is used as an excuse for having to watch some of the worst football i have ever seen is just pure hokum , until we get rid of an accountant choosing managers and deciding what players will be paid then we will always be in a downward spiral under this disaster of a chairman.


So who should decide what players get paid?

lapsedhibee
19-07-2011, 07:56 AM
So who should decide what players get paid?

Should be up to Main Board hibs.netters throughout the season. That'd save a bit of money after a defeat.

number 27
19-07-2011, 08:00 AM
So who should decide what players get paid?


I think I know this one, It's Sir Tom isn't it? After all, he saved the club so he is theonly person allowed an opinion. If you disagree then why don't you put your money up and buy the club?

That's how it works isn't it?

Cropley10
19-07-2011, 08:10 AM
I think I know this one, It's Sir Tom isn't it? After all, he saved the club so he is theonly person allowed an opinion. If you disagree then why don't you put your money up and buy the club?

That's how it works isn't it?

:tee hee:

TrickyNicky
19-07-2011, 08:39 AM
I think I know this one, It's Sir Tom isn't it? After all, he saved the club so he is theonly person allowed an opinion. If you disagree then why don't you put your money up and buy the club?

That's how it works isn't it?

:top marks

sixtwo
19-07-2011, 09:56 AM
I might be wrong but i got the feeling we were about to speculate to accumulate this season. We started the ball rolling by getting sproule in early. we followed that up with GO'C and O'hanlon. Most of us were optomistic for the upcoming season........ Then, the CC saga unfolded.

I think the board were happy to back cc, but, understandably, they now have their doubts about his committment to the club. I believe they expected he would go and they would back the incoming manager and allow him to spend.

Wilson
19-07-2011, 10:17 AM
I might be wrong but i got the feeling we were about to speculate to accumulate this season. We started the ball rolling by getting sproule in early. we followed that up with GO'C and O'hanlon. Most of us were optomistic for the upcoming season........ Then, the CC saga unfolded.

I think the board were happy to back cc, but, understandably, they now have their doubts about his committment to the club. I believe they expected he would go and they would back the incoming manager and allow him to spend.

I don't get the feeling we're about to speculate to accumulate ever. It isn't our clubs' policy. The club might set a budget and then find we're at an operating loss because income falls below expectations. This is not the same thing. They simply adjust the budget downwards the following year to compensate.

In bringing in GOC, Sproule, and O'Hanlon we had made a good start. That is all there signings were though to most of us - a start. Something to be optimistic about should we have added more quality and depth to turn our squad from a poor bottom six side to a certain top six one. As things stand though those three signings are it. Not quite the season saving influx of talent we might have expected given the large exodus of wage thieves. We need more quality.

However, I'm hopeful that the CC saga will have stalled the signing process rather than halted it. If the board have refused all (any) offers of compensation for him then they have to back him with signings. They have kept Calderwood in place and we need him to be given the resources to take us up the table.

As far as I am concerned it would be a shocking misjudgement if anyone at the club thought this squad was capable of much more than SPL survival (at best).

Keith_M
19-07-2011, 10:52 AM
You forgot Dundee and Motherwell in that list.


...and you conveniently ignored my post


:wink:

Mikey
19-07-2011, 10:53 AM
...and you conveniently ignored my post


:wink:

Was there anything new in it? :wink:

Keith_M
19-07-2011, 11:02 AM
Was there anything new in it? :wink:



Do you mean other than answering your question?


:na na:

Mikey
19-07-2011, 11:02 AM
Do you mean other than answering your question?


:na na:

I'll away and have a look then.........

Mikey
19-07-2011, 11:04 AM
Celtc.


They were dire before Fergus McCann arrived with a cr*p stadium. He rescued the club, invested in a stadium rebuild and new players and they have since won numerous trophies, are in a better financial state than most clubs, have the largest average attendance and the largest football stadium in Scotland.



Now, I fully expect the OP to backtrack and add extra criteria to his question but the above meets all his requirements, including the one of being a Scottish club he added later.



However, it's obvious what the intent was of the question and, perversely enough, I don't think Hibs can speculate at the Fergus McCann level either. That said, they have to spend money on a few more players before the season starts, otherwise we're in for yet another poor season with falling attendances.


Nope, no backtracking. You know what I would say if I was to backtrack though eh :wink:

Wrong again eh? When will I ever learn!

Big_D
19-07-2011, 05:18 PM
More to do with manager and team performance.

Crowds started quite well last year even after poor end to previous season. Downhill since then though.

The board appoint the managers though , the buck stops at them surely ?

Keith_M
19-07-2011, 06:56 PM
Nope, no backtracking. You know what I would say if I was to backtrack though eh :wink:



Keekaboo has left by mutual consent? :greengrin



Seriously, though, you'll notice I actually agree with you (kind of). Only Rangers or Celtc could invest large sums of money with any hope of it being worthwhile. The rest have little chance of any return, so barring the lottery winner from Largs being a die-hard Hibby, it's just not gonna happen.

We still need a bigger squad though.

The Falcon
19-07-2011, 08:36 PM
I think I know this one, It's Sir Tom isn't it? After all, he saved the club so he is theonly person allowed an opinion. If you disagree then why don't you put your money up and buy the club?

That's how it works isn't it?


If they want to be like Hearts and get a clueless muppet they could get you to do it!

Spend other folks cash after all.

SanFranHibs
19-07-2011, 08:47 PM
But if we don't do something soon we'll be in the brown stuff for a few years !!

Hard to speculate. As has been said often, even if it 'succeeds' you're talking about the occasional 3rd place and occasional cup run.

Ray_
19-07-2011, 08:50 PM
If they want to be like Hearts and get a clueless muppet they could get you to do it!

Spend other folks cash after all.

Isn't that what Rod Petrie does?

Kaiser1962
19-07-2011, 08:52 PM
Isn't that what Rod Petrie does?



He gets paid to spend it :greengrin