Greek Austerity Measures

[Betty Boop]

The Greeks are out on the streets in their thousands, ahead of the vote for austerity cuts. The police are firing round after round of stun grenades and tear gas, heavy scenes. Even if the vote goes through, will the government be able to implement the austerity package ?

[Woody1985]

I've only seen one of the main measures and it relates to pension ages. They retire between 50 & 55 and get great pension benefits, as I understand.

I don't know if I've conformed to the British way of life and think tough **** and work longer or it's good they're fighting up for themselves.

[RyeSloan]

The Greeks are out on the streets in their thousands, ahead of the vote for austerity cuts. The police are firing round after round of stun grenades and tear gas, heavy scenes. Even if the vote goes through, will the government be able to implement the austerity package ?

Either way they are doomed until they agree an orderly default of their debt...shame the ECB and the rest of the Euro power brokers can't face up to that.

I understand their outrage as they have been totally shafted by their politicians but riots on the streets are going to do nothing to solve the issue I'm afraid...there is also a strong argument that some of these reforms are badly badly needed to allow the country to rise from the ashes but as they erode certain privileges and are sure to mean people will need to work harder and longer it's no surprise they are unpopular!!

[Jack]

I think this shows what's not happening in the EU.

For a collection of countries that have got together, for the common good, the variation in almost everything means countries will be at each others throats more than they will be working together.

Here’s Greece upsetting their natives by making them work till there still a few years younger than a guy in the UK can retire now. The same is replicated throughout the EU. Meanwhile those countries who already ask their populations to work longer, and it will be even longer still, are being almost blackmailed to bail the likes of Greece out.

There isn't an EU leader of, or in Europe who is prepared to think strategically; there isn't a country in the EU that wouldn’t cut a neighbours throat for a Euro or even a cent.

The already bankrupt countries are blackmailing the likes of Germany with the threat of the demise of the Euro.

[PeeJay]

I've only seen one of the main measures and it relates to pension ages. They retire between 50 & 55 and get great pension benefits, as I understand.


This is what we've been led to believe since the start of this crisis, but apparently it's a myth. The average SOP age for the EU is 61.4 years - Germany has 61.7 and the UK 63.1 and the figure for Greece is 61.4.
(EU figures)

[hibsbollah]

Theyve been robbed by the politicians and hedge fund managers and are being asked to live in poverty for years as a result.

Now the financial speculators will be buying up Greek assets at a fraction of their value, and when they fail, the Govt will have to step in and take over again and incur even more cost.

If I was Greek i'd be revolting as well.

[Betty Boop]

Theyve been robbed by the politicians and hedge fund managers and are being asked to live in poverty for years as a result.

Now the financial speculators will be buying up Greek assets at a fraction of their value, and when they fail, the Govt will have to step in and take over again and incur even more cost.

If I was Greek i'd be revolting as well.

The minimum amount of votes have been reached, it looks like it has been passed.
155-138.

[Woody1985]

This is what we've been led to believe since the start of this crisis, but apparently it's a myth. The average SOP age for the EU is 61.4 years - Germany has 61.7 and the UK 63.1 and the figure for Greece is 61.4.
(EU figures)

I had heard those numbers before all this. A colleagues parents stay there because of the benefits and lifestyle for old ones. Apparently you can collect a UK pension there aswell if you've worked here. Only heard snippets so not sure how accurate that is.

[Leicester Fan]

Apparently they don't a PAYE tax system in Greece. People tell the govt what they earn and it's hardly ever checked for accuracy. Public sector wages are extremely generous and they do retire earlier than us.

They've got it pretty good and I don't blame them for wanting to hang on to it, the problem is is that they can't afford it and it's really not fair to expect the taxpayers from countries that don't have it so good to pick up the bill.

If there is one good thing to come from this it means that the United States of Europe project is extremely damaged by this.

[Beefster]

This is what we've been led to believe since the start of this crisis, but apparently it's a myth. The average SOP age for the EU is 61.4 years - Germany has 61.7 and the UK 63.1 and the figure for Greece is 61.4.
(EU figures)

It's quite common for public sector workers to retire in their fifties so it's not a myth as such. All the average age of retirement suggests is that the private sector generally retires much later than the public sector (as they will raise the average up to 61).

[Calvin]

Apparently they don't a PAYE tax system in Greece. People tell the govt what they earn and it's hardly ever checked for accuracy. Public sector wages are extremely generous and they do retire earlier than us..

This is absolutely true. Some of my family are Greek and my Uncle runs his own Insurance brokers over in Trikala. I was talking to him a few years ago and he was livid about the amount of tax he'd had to pay. Apparently his accountant had declared properly the takings and earnings for him and the company, and he just couldn't believe this. It was 'unheard of' for tax to be properly declared.

That's a reason that the public sector workers started protesting first - their tax is easier to keep tabs on so when increased tax rates came, they were the ones most directly affected by it - effectively subsidising the tax dodging of the private sector.

[RyeSloan]

Theyve been robbed by the politicians and hedge fund managers and are being asked to live in poverty for years as a result.

Now the financial speculators will be buying up Greek assets at a fraction of their value, and when they fail, the Govt will have to step in and take over again and incur even more cost.

If I was Greek i'd be revolting as well.

Hedge Fund managers? Really?

So nothing to do with their government spending money they didn't have, not collecting anywhere near the tax required to cover their spending nor even reporting and accounting their GDP and Debt figures accurately?

Or to do with their chronic protectionism of industries at the cost of the public at large?

To blame Greece's problem on Hedge Fund managers seems quite strange to me...maybe I'm missing something so would genuinely like to hear why hedge fund managers should shoulder the blame for the Greek Sovereign debt crisis.

[PeeJay]

..maybe I'm missing something so would genuinely like to hear why hedge fund managers should shoulder the blame for the Greek Sovereign debt crisis.


They're not entirely to blame ...

"Policymakers in Europe are pushing hard to implement the proposed regulations on the hedge fund industry. This was primarily due to hedge fund managers' perceived role in aggravating the financial crisis and increasing the funding cost for Greece. While there has been no concrete evidence to prove hedge funds' role in exacerbating the financial crisis, it is widely believed that their bet against the fall of Greece resulted in increased funding costs for that country.
It cannot be denied that it was the profligacy spending by Greece that led to current crisis and hedge fund managers bet only against the government's mishandling of economies. So, hedge fund managers should not be entirely blamed for the crisis in Greece.
Also, the newly proposed regulations, which require hedge funds operating outside the euro-zone to get a passport to operate in the region, could have the consequence of sparking protectionist measures by countries that have a large hedge fund industry, such as the US and the UK.
R. Balamurali
Tiruchi"


(This article was published in the Business Line print edition dated Mai 20, 2010)

...or how about

http://www.usasurvival.org/docs/Zubi_Diamond.pdf

Hedge fund managers I would suggest have indeed played a role that is not inconsequential...but to blame them alone is patently incorrect.

If you're a HFM of course, you'll view this all differently!:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Hedge Fund managers?

Because firstly, the chronic risk-driven culture driven by hedge fund speculation was a cause of the global financial crisis in the first place, thats been well documented. No global financial crisis, no defaulting for overstretched national economies.

And second, the fund managers are currently circling over the undervalued greek stock at present, betting against it and further destabilising the economy. Just the first link I saw on the ft, without spending all day trawling the net for you ;-)

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/a6b71b50-249f-11df-8be0-00144feab49a.html

I have a few acquaintances in hedge funds who have mentioned they (well, their employers anyway) are going to make a killing if Greece defaults.

Venture capitalists win again. Greek teachers, students, policemen, pensioners and nurses will pay for it. Just like Britain really.

[Leicester Fan]

They should never have been allowed in the Euro in the first place. Everybody at the time knew that they'd cooked the books to meet the criteria. You can't blame the hedge fund managers for that.

[RyeSloan]

Because firstly, the chronic risk-driven culture driven by hedge fund speculation was a cause of the global financial crisis in the first place, thats been well documented. No global financial crisis, no defaulting for overstretched national economies.

And second, the fund managers are currently circling over the undervalued greek stock at present, betting against it and further destabilising the economy. Just the first link I saw on the ft, without spending all day trawling the net for you ;-)

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/a6b71b50-249f-11df-8be0-00144feab49a.html

I have a few acquaintances in hedge funds who have mentioned they (well, their employers anyway) are going to make a killing if Greece defaults.

Venture capitalists win again. Greek teachers, students, policemen, pensioners and nurses will pay for it. Just like Britain really.
No it wasn't. It was the commoditisation of sub prime loans and the opaque way they were valued, traded and of course held on bank balance sheets...Hedge Fund managers were not responsible for much (if any) of that.

So what if market speculators are shorting Greece, who the hell wouldn't. But the fact is that it is Greece and there over borrowing and under reporting that caused the issue that the speculators are exploiting....they didn't cause it.

The idea that somehow the financial markets are rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of a Greek default is well wide of the mark.....the impact of a disorderly default could instigate another financial crisis and not even hedge fund managers (many of whom lost a lot of money in the last crisis) will be wishing for that.

Your last sentance is a touch dramatic I would say...for starters venture capital tends to be invested in companies, a failing economy or a failign euro zone will do nothing for those investments. Secondly the euro zone banks exposure to Greece and the very likley contagion it could cause is absolutely massive...banks suffering massive and potentially catastrophic losses will have very very few winners. To try and paint the picture that it's all the bad bankers causing the misery as they are all set to make fortunes while Greece burns is total bollocks to be honest.

[RyeSloan]

They're not entirely to blame ...

"Policymakers in Europe are pushing hard to implement the proposed regulations on the hedge fund industry. This was primarily due to hedge fund managers' perceived role in aggravating the financial crisis and increasing the funding cost for Greece. While there has been no concrete evidence to prove hedge funds' role in exacerbating the financial crisis, it is widely believed that their bet against the fall of Greece resulted in increased funding costs for that country.
It cannot be denied that it was the profligacy spending by Greece that led to current crisis and hedge fund managers bet only against the government's mishandling of economies. So, hedge fund managers should not be entirely blamed for the crisis in Greece.
Also, the newly proposed regulations, which require hedge funds operating outside the euro-zone to get a passport to operate in the region, could have the consequence of sparking protectionist measures by countries that have a large hedge fund industry, such as the US and the UK.
R. Balamurali
Tiruchi"


(This article was published in the Business Line print edition dated Mai 20, 2010)

...or how about

http://www.usasurvival.org/docs/Zubi_Diamond.pdf

Hedge fund managers I would suggest have indeed played a role that is not inconsequential...but to blame them alone is patently incorrect.

If you're a HFM of course, you'll view this all differently!:greengrin

Defo not a HFM.

The fact is that it's Greece's huge debt and puny tax raising powers that have caused their borrowing costs to spiral...no one believes they can afford their current debt. Hedge Funds would be crazy to do anything else but bet their clients money on the inevitable.

Hedge Funds and speculators are a favourite target, especially for the politicians...when you scrape away the rhetoric and peoples natural dislike of people profiting out of adversity the root cause is hardly ever the hedge fund trading patterns and with Greece that's about as certain as a certain thing.

[hibsbollah]

You think hedge fund managers and speculators are a 'favourite target for politicians'? I must have missed that, all I keep hearing from our politicians how nasty spendthrifty social democratic governments were to blame.

Without wanting to get repetitive, risky speculation both caused the crisis and is now picking over the carcass. It is to the Greek peoples credit that they arent accepting the remedy prescribed, ie,-those least able to pay the price should pay to clean up the mess. Now thats what I call bollocks.

You think my last sentence is a touch dramatic...could you summarise who you expect to pay the cost for austerity measures both in Greece and across the eurozone? I suspect even you wont be able to construct an argument that its anybody but the poorest in society.

[Big Ed]

Greece in the grip of the classic low growth / high debt cycle. To maintain debt at its present level, requires growth. For that to happen more money needs to be in the economy, but as the government has passed legislation based on cuts, this is impossible. Private borrowing is not an option because people have lost confidence and will try to decrease their debt rather accumulate more.
The government relies on debt money to generate their economy. The bust that always follows the boom of debt generated growth has wrecked its ability to service debt because tax revenues are spiraling downwards whilst welfare payments will increase.
The irony is; these cuts won't work. The debt is so enormous. Borrowing money from the ECB or IMF is like handing a junkie an American Express Platinum Card and telling him to max it.
Yet a tiny minority are going to make fortunes from this tragedy. If that is not immoral, then I don't know what is.

[libernian]

You think hedge fund managers and speculators are a 'favourite target for politicians'? I must have missed that, all I keep hearing from our politicians how nasty spendthrifty social democratic governments were to blame.

Without wanting to get repetitive, risky speculation both caused the crisis and is now picking over the carcass. It is to the Greek peoples credit that they arent accepting the remedy prescribed, ie,-those least able to pay the price should pay to clean up the mess. Now thats what I call bollocks.

You think my last sentence is a touch dramatic...could you summarise who you expect to pay the cost for austerity measures both in Greece and across the eurozone? I suspect even you wont be able to construct an argument that its anybody but the poorest in society.

i think the govt i doing the right by taxing the poor / people they know will pay. a disgrace but thats the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately and it will be efficient for greece just like in the UK.

i agree with you however, fair play to them for saying gtf

[One Day Soon]

Greece in the grip of the classic low growth / high debt cycle. To maintain debt at its present level, requires growth. For that to happen more money needs to be in the economy, but as the government has passed legislation based on cuts, this is impossible. Private borrowing is not an option because people have lost confidence and will try to decrease their debt rather accumulate more.
The government relies on debt money to generate their economy. The bust that always follows the boom of debt generated growth has wrecked its ability to service debt because tax revenues are spiraling downwards whilst welfare payments will increase.
The irony is; these cuts won't work. The debt is so enormous. Borrowing money from the ECB or IMF is like handing a junkie an American Express Platinum Card and telling him to max it.
Yet a tiny minority are going to make fortunes from this tragedy. If that is not immoral, then I don't know what is.

Excellent analysis.

The speculators are betting against Greece precisely because they know how weak their economy is. They know its weak because that weakness is what fundamentally underpins their deficit and their lack of growth. Not the worst when the global economy is booming and the international banking system is giving like a Friday night drunk. Different story when recession and expensive low volume lending comes to town.

The only way the Greeks will find a way out - a painful slow way - is to lower their living standards and find things that they can trade with. Brushing up on their hospitality, tourism and cuisine looks like one of the few bets.

The hedge fund managers aren't responsible for this - they're just the vultures or hyenas hanging around waiting to feast on the carcass.

[RyeSloan]

You think hedge fund managers and speculators are a 'favourite target for politicians'? I must have missed that, all I keep hearing from our politicians how nasty spendthrifty social democratic governments were to blame.

Without wanting to get repetitive, risky speculation both caused the crisis and is now picking over the carcass. It is to the Greek peoples credit that they arent accepting the remedy prescribed, ie,-those least able to pay the price should pay to clean up the mess. Now thats what I call bollocks.

You think my last sentence is a touch dramatic...could you summarise who you expect to pay the cost for austerity measures both in Greece and across the eurozone? I suspect even you wont be able to construct an argument that its anybody but the poorest in society.

Repeat it all you want, risky speculation by hedge funds did not cause the crisis.

Considering the Greek government is the elected representatives of the Greek people and it was the Greek government that borrowed what it cannot afford and then deliberately underreported it's liabilities to deceive the market who do you suggest should pay the price for that if it isn't the Greeks themselves?

You can paint this as the rich guys crushing the poor guys all you want but Greece is largely responsible for their own mess, they have repeatedly failed to reform their economy, deliberately mis reported their revenues and liabilities and are now paying the price. Sure it's not nice to see and 'austerity' is a bitter medicine to swallow but to try and blame hedge fund managers for the Greek mess is totally and completely wrong.

[Big Ed]

Repeat it all you want, risky speculation by hedge funds did not cause the crisis.

Considering the Greek government is the elected representatives of the Greek people and it was the Greek government that borrowed what it cannot afford and then deliberately underreported it's liabilities to deceive the market who do you suggest should pay the price for that if it isn't the Greeks themselves?

You can paint this as the rich guys crushing the poor guys all you want but Greece is largely responsible for their own mess, they have repeatedly failed to reform their economy, deliberately mis reported their revenues and liabilities and are now paying the price. Sure it's not nice to see and 'austerity' is a bitter medicine to swallow but to try and blame hedge fund managers for the Greek mess is totally and completely wrong.

There is no doubt that the Greek government are culpable in this disaster; but they are only one of the players in a world wide Ponzi scheme, which has allowed this to happen.
Are you suggesting that, through “creative accounting” the Greek government hoodwinked their lenders in such a way that they had no idea of what a bad risk they were undertaking when they loaned the money?
European banks fell over themselves to profit from Greek debt and the implied, rather than expressly stated, public guarantee afforded by the ECB.
As a consequence of their smug complacency, they should be told to gtf.

[RyeSloan]

There is no doubt that the Greek government are culpable in this disaster; but they are only one of the players in a world wide Ponzi scheme, which has allowed this to happen.
Are you suggesting that, through “creative accounting” the Greek government hoodwinked their lenders in such a way that they had no idea of what a bad risk they were undertaking when they loaned the money?
European banks fell over themselves to profit from Greek debt and the implied, rather than expressly stated, public guarantee afforded by the ECB.
As a consequence of their smug complacency, they should be told to gtf.

Well it certainly hoodwinked the EU as it's false accounting wrongly showed that it's finances were in the correct order to join the Euro. There is an argument that if they had been accounted correctly they may well have failed the Euro entry requirements in the first place.

Banks 'falling over themsleves' to profit from Greek debt....really? Buying sovereign debt is normally considered a low risk option for regular income certainly not something to fall over yourself when trying to make outrageous returns. A quick check on Bloomberg shows Greek 10 year bonds yielding about 4-5% for the period before the crisis…hardly figures to fall over yourself for is it.

As for 'sumg complacency' rather than pointing it at banks that bought the debt you should really look at those who issued it in the first place as it's much more relevant to the successive Greek governments that failed miserably to modernise their economy, increase it's competitiveness and upgrade it's chronic inability to take tax from it's citizens while happily issuing more and more debt.

[Big Ed]

Well it certainly hoodwinked the EU as it's false accounting wrongly showed that it's finances were in the correct order to join the Euro. There is an argument that if they had been accounted correctly they may well have failed the Euro entry requirements in the first place.

Banks 'falling over themsleves' to profit from Greek debt....really? Buying sovereign debt is normally considered a low risk option for regular income certainly not something to fall over yourself when trying to make outrageous returns. A quick check on Bloomberg shows Greek 10 year bonds yielding about 4-5% for the period before the crisis…hardly figures to fall over yourself for is it.

As for 'sumg complacency' rather than pointing it at banks that bought the debt you should really look at those who issued it in the first place as it's much more relevant to the successive Greek governments that failed miserably to modernise their economy, increase it's competitiveness and upgrade it's chronic inability to take tax from it's citizens while happily issuing more and more debt.

Financial institutions throughout the continent have managers and Chief Executives who are paid multi million pound salaries. Given that they are at the high end of an industry that has a history of incredible financial manipulation of figures, you’d think that these supermen would do a bit more than simply see what the ratings agencies said. I don’t buy it.
The reason that they are smug and complacent is because they know that there is no risk. The ECB is struggling to maintain market confidence in the Euro; bullying Greece into accepting austerity measures that mean it has absolutely no chance of stimulating growth in the next generation, is a small price to pay. They have loaned hundreds of billions of Euros into existence and shipped them to Athens. That money (debt) caused a temporary but unsustainable bubble, but has not led to any kind of solid economic growth with which Greece would have had any chance of paying back the loans.
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the performance of the Greek government, however I do think that what is being proposed is obscene. To paraphrase my analogy earlier in the thread: if you hand a junkie your credit card, you shouldn’t be surprised at the consequences.

[RyeSloan]

Financial institutions throughout the continent have managers and Chief Executives who are paid multi million pound salaries. Given that they are at the high end of an industry that has a history of incredible financial manipulation of figures, you’d think that these supermen would do a bit more than simply see what the ratings agencies said. I don’t buy it.
The reason that they are smug and complacent is because they know that there is no risk. The ECB is struggling to maintain market confidence in the Euro; bullying Greece into accepting austerity measures that mean it has absolutely no chance of stimulating growth in the next generation, is a small price to pay. They have loaned hundreds of billions of Euros into existence and shipped them to Athens. That money (debt) caused a temporary but unsustainable bubble, but has not led to any kind of solid economic growth with which Greece would have had any chance of paying back the loans.
I don’t disagree with your assessment of the performance of the Greek government, however I do think that what is being proposed is obscene. To paraphrase my analogy earlier in the thread: if you hand a junkie your credit card, you shouldn’t be surprised at the consequences.

Oh don't get me wrong I thing the ECB's approach to the 'bail out' is totally wrong and I also think Merkel and co are fooling themselves...from what I can see a structured default or at least a partial default (say a 50% haircut) is the only way to go here. There is no silver bullet mind so all approaches have risks but a structred default to my mind is the only one that has a chance of actually succeeding without breaking the euro zone apart.

One thing though is that the banks didn't create the Euros and ship them to Athens. Soverign debt is issued by the countries involved and bought at auction in the market. Greece created this debt not the banks.

[Leicester Fan]

The ECB is struggling to maintain market confidence in the Euro;

That is because the Euro is and was a terrible idea. All these problems were predicted when it was first started up, but the opponents of monetary union were dismissed as racists and little Englanders.

Political heads should roll and not just in Greece either.

[Big Ed]

Oh don't get me wrong I thing the ECB's approach to the 'bail out' is totally wrong and I also think Merkel and co are fooling themselves...from what I can see a structured default or at least a partial default (say a 50% haircut) is the only way to go here. There is no silver bullet mind so all approaches have risks but a structred default to my mind is the only one that has a chance of actually succeeding without breaking the euro zone apart.

One thing though is that the banks didn't create the Euros and ship them to Athens. Soverign debt is issued by the countries involved and bought at auction in the market. Greece created this debt not the banks.

Fair point :embarrass
The point I tried (and failed) to make was that the banks do the lending. They (should) know that Greece can't afford to repay, but still do it anyway.
Junkie/Credit Card - Credit Card/Junkie etc...

[Bad Martini]

Ah think banks are braw.

Withoot banks there wid be nae cashlines.

Withoot cashlines there wid be nae hireys.

Withoot hireys there wid be nae (legal, without a hold up) way of getting stuff we need like beer.

Withoot mair hireys, naebody could buy **** all in fact.

Therefore, am thankful to yon bankers who provide us wi hireys oot yon hole in the wa. These bankers, whilst I agree, a bunch of ******s are indeed, just that. Equally, in times of (non?)osterity, when bringing in ZILLIONS and doing well, ah thinks we all thought **** all of them other than "oh look...there goes a right banker in his Porsche etc"....but nowwwwwwwwwww, nowwwwwwwww the governments and politicians of Europe have found a scapegoat, someone even lower than they, someone who does things worse than running aboot on the sly with prostitutes, rent boys, having their moats cleaned and their ponds de-****med, someone who they can blame for it aw, well....are they no just revellin in it?

*******s. Aw *******s.

Jeezo, Getting angry is hard work as ye get aulder ye ken :aok::greengrin

[Bad Martini]

That is because the Euro is and was a terrible idea. All these problems were predicted when it was first started up, but the opponents of monetary union were dismissed as racists and little Englanders.

Political heads should roll and not just in Greece either.

Like Chuck Norris, ah dinnae recognise the Euro or this time of osterity.

And, Like Chuck Norris, I intend on using pasetas next year AND having them wee bampots accept them. It works fur Chuck, nae reason why I canny buy 394384 pints using pasetas AND even, get change :greengrin

Roundhouse. Thats the answer. And so say all of chuck...

[Leicester Fan]

Ah think banks are braw.

Withoot banks there wid be nae cashlines.

Withoot cashlines there wid be nae hireys.

Withoot hireys there wid be nae (legal, without a hold up) way of getting stuff we need like beer.

Withoot mair hireys, naebody could buy **** all in fact.

Therefore, am thankful to yon bankers who provide us wi hireys oot yon hole in the wa. These bankers, whilst I agree, a bunch of ******s are indeed, just that. Equally, in times of (non?)osterity, when bringing in ZILLIONS and doing well, ah thinks we all thought **** all of them other than "oh look...there goes a right banker in his Porsche etc"....but nowwwwwwwwwww, nowwwwwwwww the governments and politicians of Europe have found a scapegoat, someone even lower than they, someone who does things worse than running aboot on the sly with prostitutes, rent boys, having their moats cleaned and their ponds de-****med, someone who they can blame for it aw, well....are they no just revellin in it?

*******s. Aw *******s.

Jeezo, Getting angry is hard work as ye get aulder ye ken :aok::greengrin

Does google translate do Scottish?

[Gatecrasher]

Does google translate do Scottish?
:hilarious

[RyeSloan]

Does google translate do Scottish?

Even if it did I don't think the translation would make any more (less?) sense! :greengrin

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Does anyone reckon that, because of these measures being implemented in Greece, it will be a more affordable place to holiday or the opp?

[Sir David Gray]

Apparently they don't a PAYE tax system in Greece. People tell the govt what they earn and it's hardly ever checked for accuracy. Public sector wages are extremely generous and they do retire earlier than us.

They've got it pretty good and I don't blame them for wanting to hang on to it, the problem is is that they can't afford it and it's really not fair to expect the taxpayers from countries that don't have it so good to pick up the bill.

If there is one good thing to come from this it means that the United States of Europe project is extremely damaged by this.

:agree: Anything which helps to bring an end to the EU is fine by me.

I just thank God that Britain retained the pound. It's bad enough that we're in the EU but if we had joined the single currency like most of the other member nations have done then I don't know where we would be right now.

I wasn't aware of the retirement age in Greece or the situation with the pensions either and although I can understand why people will want to protect the good deal that they've always had, if the country can't afford it then things have to change.

If the Greek parliament hadn't passed the measures last week, the country would have gone bankrupt.

[Gatecrasher]

Does anyone reckon that, because of these measures being implemented in Greece, it will be a more affordable place to holiday or the opp?

my parents are not long back and found it very expensive, more expensive than here (the uk) in a lot of purchases as well. i think with their tax and vat going up it will get worse.

[magpie1892]

my parents are not long back and found it very expensive, more expensive than here (the uk) in a lot of purchases as well. i think with their tax and vat going up it will get worse.

VAT hasn't risen for over a year. Tax rises won't affect tourists, and they won't make any difference at all to a people for whom tax evasion and avoidance is a national sport.

As long as Greece remains in the euro then prices for tourists are unlikely to fluctuate much in the immediate future. Prices in the medium term might come down as a loss-leader with people reluctant to holiday in a war zone; a similar effect can be seen in Egypt at the moment where there are some crazy cheap deals on offer.

Beer and food in Greece are far, far cheaper than in the UK if you shop around.

[PeeJay]

:agree: Anything which helps to bring an end to the EU is fine by me.

I just thank God that Britain retained the pound. It's bad enough that we're in the EU but if we had joined the single currency like most of the other member nations have done then I don't know where we would be right now.

I wasn't aware of the retirement age in Greece or the situation with the pensions either and although I can understand why people will want to protect the good deal that they've always had, if the country can't afford it then things have to change.

If the Greek parliament hadn't passed the measures last week, the country would have gone bankrupt.


:bitchy:

"So what has the EU ever done for us ..."

While no-one would argue that the EU is perfect: its benefits far outweigh any negative aspects it may have IMO. (The pt. about Greek prosperity may not ring quite true at the moment, I'll admit:rolleyes:, but everything pales in significance to Pt.1...)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-us-apart-from-441138.html

A world without the EU: what is that then exactly in your opinion?

[Beefster]

:bitchy:

"So what has the EU ever done for us ..."

While no-one would argue that the EU is perfect: its benefits far outweigh any negative aspects it may have IMO. (The pt. about Greek prosperity may not ring quite true at the moment, I'll admit:rolleyes:, but everything pales in significance to Pt.1...)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-us-apart-from-441138.html

A world without the EU: what is that then exactly in your opinion?

I'm generally pro-European (except for their delusion with regards to the budgets) but some of the stuff on that list is straw-clutching (pet passports? footballers?) and this, in particular, from your article made me chuckle.....

"3. Once poor countries like Ireland, Greece and Portugal prospering"

[PeeJay]

I'm generally pro-European (except for their delusion with regards to the budgets) but some of the stuff on that list is straw-clutching (pet passports? footballers?) and this, in particular, from your article made me chuckle.....

"3. Once poor countries like Ireland, Greece and Portugal prospering"

I could contend that the blame for the downturn in the fortunes of these countries is not actually down to the EU or the euro, but rather poor management, and the financial institutions within these countries, but the EU certainly has to bear responsibility for its own poor management/handling of the situation - not everything in the EU is beyond reproach! It's a testing time for the EU: I hope we pull it off and get back on track.

You're spot on about the budgets BTW - far too much still being allocated to agriculture, for example!

(The Independent article is a wee bit dated, but in general the list holds up IMO - as 'diverse' as it may be)

[Leicester Fan]

:bitchy:

"So what has the EU ever done for us ..."

While no-one would argue that the EU is perfect: its benefits far outweigh any negative aspects it may have IMO. (The pt. about Greek prosperity may not ring quite true at the moment, I'll admit:rolleyes:, but everything pales in significance to Pt.1...)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-us-apart-from-441138.html

A world without the EU: what is that then exactly in your opinion?

That's an old list and some of the things on there have been proven to be not true since or no improvement on what went on before. Of the things that can be claimed as an improvement, there is no reason why we couldn't have implemented them for ourselves.

Line 2 stuck out as blatant bullshine though.


2. Democracy is flourishing in 27 countries

There is nothing very democratic about democratically elected countries being told what to do by unknown (to us), foreign bureaucrats and judges who we never elected and can't vote out.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The first round of attempts to deal with the crisis in Greece gives a pretty good object lesson that cutting to encourage growth does not work. It's particular clear in Greece because the massive drop off in aggregate demand that cutting necessarily causes wasn't ameliorated by tax revenues. Because no attempt was made to ask the rich if they wouldn't mind, you know, paying some ****ing taxes.

The second round doesn't look any more likely to suceed. More cuts to make people who had no role in the development of the situation pay for it coupled with a series of loans that go straight into the coffers of various European banks. That's the order of the day: privatise profit, socialise debt. In Greece it goes further, it's a complete surrender of national sovereignty to the markets. Some of it just absolutely defies belief, as Yanis Varoufakis has been covering the Greek national lottery provides 400 million Euros a year to the Greek economy and they are now trying to sell it off to the tune of 900 million Euros - and there's much more where that comes from. And this is all just a way of Angela Merkel pacifying the Bundestag despite the fact that the Eurozone crisis is largely responsible for the brilliant economic results Germany has been having recently.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that this isn't just a Greek crisis, it isn't just crisis of the Eurozone, it's a crisis of capital accumulation; the 'solution' to which is a retrenchment of the ideas and policies responsible. Greece will default, that is absolutely certain - by the way. For some reason every politician in Europe seems to want to pretend it isn't, the current measures are really just an elaborate charade and part of a wider class project.

[hibsbollah]

Excellent expose on hedge funds and the Greek debt crisis on File On Four on Radio 4 just now...will be available on listen again. Simar in particular might find it interesting ;-)

[RyeSloan]

The first round of attempts to deal with the crisis in Greece gives a pretty good object lesson that cutting to encourage growth does not work. It's particular clear in Greece because the massive drop off in aggregate demand that cutting necessarily causes wasn't ameliorated by tax revenues. Because no attempt was made to ask the rich if they wouldn't mind, you know, paying some ****ing taxes.

The second round doesn't look any more likely to suceed. More cuts to make people who had no role in the development of the situation pay for it coupled with a series of loans that go straight into the coffers of various European banks. That's the order of the day: privatise profit, socialise debt. In Greece it goes further, it's a complete surrender of national sovereignty to the markets. Some of it just absolutely defies belief, as Yanis Varoufakis has been covering the Greek national lottery provides 400 million Euros a year to the Greek economy and they are now trying to sell it off to the tune of 900 million Euros - and there's much more where that comes from. And this is all just a way of Angela Merkel pacifying the Bundestag despite the fact that the Eurozone crisis is largely responsible for the brilliant economic results Germany has been having recently.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that this isn't just a Greek crisis, it isn't just crisis of the Eurozone, it's a crisis of capital accumulation; the 'solution' to which is a retrenchment of the ideas and policies responsible. Greece will default, that is absolutely certain - by the way. For some reason every politician in Europe seems to want to pretend it isn't, the current measures are really just an elaborate charade and part of a wider class project.

Hmmm some good points...although as ever I always find it slightly amazing that everything that goes wrong in the world is the result of a class war.

Couple of points though....

You claim the 'rich' were never asked to pay in Greece. Would it not be fairer to say no one in Greece was asked or forced to pay the tax they were due and that it is the Greek Government that is at fault there.

When you accumulate 150% of GDP as debt is it not then the countries own fault if that debt then means they lose 'sovereignty' to the markets? Considering how much money they are due I would be absolutely amazed if these creditors were not taking a very close interest in what Greece was doing to clear some of it.

I think you are right re default, or at least a partial default. Who do you think takes the hit then? The downtrodden workers or the banks that lent to Greece in the first place? A disorderly default could well trigger another financial crisis...not another Lehmans moment but significantly bigger I would have thought. That may cause you to rejoice but would it really benefit anybody in the long run?

The fact is significant areas of Europe have over borrowed, under invested and continued to keep restrictive and protectionist labour laws in place...sadly those actions are now coming home to roost....was all of that a cunning play in the wider class war or just simple incompetence and the dragging influence of vested interests?

Finally you state " the 'solution' to which is a retrenchment of the ideas and policies responsible" - What would that retrenchment look like and what ideas and policies would take their place?

[RyeSloan]

Excellent expose on hedge funds and the Greek debt crisis on File On Four on Radio 4 just now...will be available on listen again. Simar in particular might find it interesting ;-)

If I get a chance I will indeed give it a listen and then give my nonexpert view on it's accuracy. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

If I get a chance I will indeed give it a listen and then give my nonexpert view on it's accuracy. :greengrin

Ah dont be modest now :-)

[LiverpoolHibs]

Hmmm some good points...although as ever I always find it slightly amazing that everything that goes wrong in the world is the result of a class war.

I'm not sure that I quite said that. It's just that class conflict (that is between labour and capital) is the central political and economic dynamic across the world - which is, of course, enough of a claim for lots of people to dismiss as ludicrous and out-dated. You're certainly not alone there - though there are some clues dotted around the place. When you have Warren Buffett saying things like;

"There's class warfare, alright - but it's my class, the rich class that's making war. And we're winning."

It really should give people who like to think class is a dead concept pause for thought.


Couple of points though....

You claim the 'rich' were never asked to pay in Greece. Would it not be fairer to say no one in Greece was asked or forced to pay the tax they were due and that it is the Greek Government that is at fault there.

Well, it's certainly the Greek government - as a component part of the Greek ruling class - that that is at fault, I didn't want to give the impression that I thought PASOK and New Democracy were helpless victims in all of this. Tax evasion isn't spread evenly across income brackets - the figures are massively skewed towards the rich (as an example the FT reported that only 5,000 Greek citizens declared incomes in excess of 100,000s Euros a year - despite there being more than 60,000 households with investments exceeding 1,000,000 Euros). The culture of tax evasion and clientelism that has made the crisis in Greece so particular was central to the policy of capital accumulation within the Greek state - it wasn't really a case of everyone just turning a blind eye to each others misdemeanours, from the docker in Piraeus to the shipping magnate he works for.


When you accumulate 150% of GDP as debt is it not then the countries own fault if that debt then means they lose 'sovereignty' to the markets? Considering how much money they are due I would be absolutely amazed if these creditors were not taking a very close interest in what Greece was doing to clear some of it.

Only if you consider a nation's citizens collectively accountable for the policies of their rulers (parliamentary and extra-parliamentary) when those rulers do not act in the interests of the majority of those citizens. That is to say, if you actually think that 'we're all in this together'.

I would also be absolutely amazed if that was the case, but so what? That doesn't mean that it's any more of an acceptable proposition to have Greece surrender national sovereignty to a group of parasitic creditors.


I think you are right re default, or at least a partial default. Who do you think takes the hit then? The downtrodden workers or the banks that lent to Greece in the first place? A disorderly default could well trigger another financial crisis...not another Lehmans moment but significantly bigger I would have thought. That may cause you to rejoice but would it really benefit anybody in the long run?

I don't think anyone's suggesting that a default would be all milk and honey, just that it's preferable to the alternative - an enormous assault on living standards without any indication that this will arrest the crisis.


The fact is significant areas of Europe have over borrowed, under invested and continued to keep restrictive and protectionist labour laws in place...sadly those actions are now coming home to roost....was all of that a cunning play in the wider class war or just simple incompetence and the dragging influence of vested interests?

Finally you state " the 'solution' to which is a retrenchment of the ideas and policies responsible" - What would that retrenchment look like and what ideas and policies would take their place?

Ha, sorry - that should read 'entrenchment' not 'retrenchment'.

[Bad Martini]

Does google translate do Scottish?

Probably not??? Couldnae ratify that statement though, nor, do I give a **** :aok:


Even if it did I don't think the translation would make any more (less?) sense! :greengrin

:rolleyes:

To simplify;

Banks...very maligned when being the big bad guys (operating in an insufficiently regulated marketplace, maligned by those who had the power to regulate yet sought not too do so) and indeed, when the good times were rolling, everybody was happy. The bad times rolled in, and the bankers are the biggest ***** since the torries, thatcher and scargil put together?

Possibly they are. But, lets no be so daft as to believe our friendly neighbourhood politicans are any better...which, was the essence of the point I was making?

Simples enough?

Cheers.

ENDOF :na na: