Protecting your home and family

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

On mobile, so can't post a link, but read a story about 4 masked men, one of whom had a knife, broke into a house in Salford, a struggle happened and one of the burglars was stabbed and killed. The father of the 'victim' has said people deserve to protect their property, something I wholeheartedly agree with, but is their a line to cross? If the guy was killed because he was stabbed with a knife brought into the house, I reckon he got what he deserved and no charges should be brought against the guy trying to protect his home and family.

[Steve-O]

On mobile, so can't post a link, but read a story about 4 masked men, one of whom had a knife, broke into a house in Salford, a struggle happened and one of the burglars was stabbed and killed. The father of the 'victim' has said people deserve to protect their property, something I wholeheartedly agree with, but is their a line to cross? If the guy was killed because he was stabbed with a knife brought into the house, I reckon he got what he deserved and no charges should be brought against the guy trying to protect his home and family.

As I have said on this debate already elsewhere, it really depends on the circumstances of each individual case.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If he was found guilty, should he keep his job? or would he be getting punished twice if he lost it?

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't know how I'd react if I came across 4 masked strangers who'd just broken into my house and who's intentions were unclear. I think instinct may just kick in and there'd be a blood bath.

[ArabHibee]

I don't think it should make any difference if the knife was brought into the house or not. I'd go for the first weapon I could find and if that was a knife, then so be it.

[Killiehibbie]

Burglar gets killed. Good might make another burglar think about a change of career. On the other hand it might just make them more likely to kill householder next time.

[dalkeith stu]

Don't know the full details of this story but i feel if the burglar is killed in a struggle inside the house than it's fair game but if he has been chased out into the street then killed then you would be on a sticky wicket.

[Woody1985]

A guy I know in gilmerton was sleeping on his couch two, three months ago and woke to find a guy in his hall. The guy 'fell' and was knocked out. The guy a know accidentally trod on him and flung him out in the street.

You ought to have seen the nick of the guy. The boy will probably still do it again but not to that house.

[Beefster]

Don't know the full details of this story but i feel if the burglar is killed in a struggle inside the house than it's fair game but if he has been chased out into the street then killed then you would be on a sticky wicket.

That's what I think too. If someone was in my house and I thought that the missus and bairn were at risk, I'd take a baseball bat to the git without much thought. If he scarpered out of the house, I'd chase him but only to catch him rather than give him a pasting.

[Makaveli]

A guy I know in gilmerton was sleeping on his couch two, three months ago and woke to find a guy in his hall. The guy 'fell' and was knocked out. The guy a know accidentally trod on him and flung him out in the street.

You ought to have seen the nick of the guy. The boy will probably still do it again but not to that house.

I was at my mate's in Gilmerton last June, we decided to head out to mine at about 11 to watch the wrestling and got back to his about 5am. When we got there the glass doors at the back had been smashed in, everything stolen and three knives dropped at the doors. The couch beside those doors is where I would have been sleeping had we watched it there, and I wouldn't have been f***ing about when I saw them. Polis got three young guys (15-18) the next day.

I oppose the death penalty, vigilante justice etc etc but when someone is being threatened by an intruder self-defence must be excused. If the intruder is armed and potentially lethal force is your only option then so be it IMO.

[McHibby]

I'd be very surprised if the guy in this case gets charged. I've just finished a law degree (though, in England so the law is a bit different) and you have every right to protect yourself. In fact you don't have to wait until a crime is committed or you've been hit first, you can pre-emptively strike to protect yourself or to prevent a crime from taking place - as long as it's proportionate. Obviously it'd be a bit much to smash someone in the coupin with a baseball bat if you think they're about to pee in your garden :greengrin But when four masked men burst into your house you're obviously going to think the absolute worse and do whatever it takes.

[greenlex]

My auld man once threatenef to batter a burglar with a poker when he dusturbed him.
The moral of the story is dinnae dusturb Lexs auld man.
P.S. he is now in Cockpen Cemetery so keep the noise down when you pass.

[Hibrandenburg]

I prefer stabbing implements when dealing with burglars as opposed to long bashing utensils. Then again you couldnae swing a cat in my gaff.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Don't know the details but my general view is that the householder has the right to protect his property, and if that means some wee ****bag gets hurt then so be it.

[heretoday]

If the intruder makes good his escape with your wallet can you chase after him and use force to get it back?

[Andy74]

If the intruder makes good his escape with your wallet can you chase after him and use force to get it back?

Yes, I'd encourage you to do so.

[.Sean.]

When I was younger, I must have been around two or three at the time, the house I stayed in was burgled at a time when myself and my parents were away for the weekend. I honestly can't remember the full details, though I do know the guy (not a youngster either), was caught. I can't remember what punishment he received although my Dad and Uncle absolutely ****ing leathered the guy not too long afterwards. Done him, like he deserved.



My Father was quite within his rights in my opinion. I know for sure if someone was to break into my gaff and steal from me, i'd have no qualms whatsoever about giving the responsable party a doing, even if he was reprimanded by the law. I don't think anybody would.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've never considered it the wisest thing to pick up a weapon. There is every chance that the other person can grab it off you and use it on you.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the burglars wouldn't put up any resistance. I think the best thing to do is to make enough noise to give them a chance to get away.

[heretoday]

I suppose it's different in Scotland. Ken Clarke is surely setting out the law as it applies in England.

Up here can we still give our burglars a damn good thrashing?

[RyeSloan]

I've never considered it the wisest thing to pick up a weapon. There is every chance that the other person can grab it off you and use it on you.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the burglars wouldn't put up any resistance. I think the best thing to do is to make enough noise to give them a chance to get away.

I read somewhere that the best advice is to actually give the intruder the chance of making off....there was some research or whatever that suggested if you confront and intruder they will want to flee rather than stay and face you.

Clearly this prevents you from dishing out your own justice but can be significantly safer in terms of a 1 v 1 mash up with a stranger who may or may not be armed.

[Bad Martini]

On mobile, so can't post a link, but read a story about 4 masked men, one of whom had a knife, broke into a house in Salford, a struggle happened and one of the burglars was stabbed and killed. The father of the 'victim' has said people deserve to protect their property, something I wholeheartedly agree with, but is their a line to cross? If the guy was killed because he was stabbed with a knife brought into the house, I reckon he got what he deserved and no charges should be brought against the guy trying to protect his home and family.

The line NOT to cross, is someone else's front door, uninvited.

My thoughts; your brek in. You take yer chances. If ye dinny want to take yer chances, dont break in. Simple enough, I rather feel???

:agree:

[Bad Martini]

I suppose it's different in Scotland. Ken Clarke is surely setting out the law as it applies in England.

Up here can we still give our burglars a damn good thrashing?

That question never bothered big Dunc :greengrin

(from the oracle of Wikipedia):

"...Ferguson confronted the pair and was able to detain one of them who subsequently spent three days in hospital." :greengrin

ENDOF

[Dr_Regal]

Living in the states now it's a bit different.

If any Burglar gets past the 100 pound Rottweiler then i have a nice wee handgun under the bed which you are very much allowed to use on intruders.

Don't want to turn this into a gun debate, but loose gun laws in NH mean such crimes are very rare, as the thought of getting your head blown off is not worth it.

[Beefster]

The guy who sparked this thread won't be charged.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14248097

[Sir David Gray]

I was just away to start a thread on this subject as I just read this story earlier this morning.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with the decision of the CPS not to prosecute this man. I absolutely despise burglars and thieves and as far as I'm concerned, once you illegally enter someone else's property, looking to steal from them, then you give up all of your human rights etc and the homeowner(s) absolutely have the right to defend themselves, their family and their property in any way that they see fit.

In a country that seems to be really losing the plot when it comes to the rights of criminals, it's very encouraging to read this story and it gives me hope that all may not be lost after all.

[easty]

I was just away to start a thread on this subject as I just read this story earlier this morning.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with the decision of the CPS not to prosecute this man. I absolutely despise burglars and thieves and as far as I'm concerned, once you illegally enter someone else's property, looking to steal from them, then you give up all of your human rights etc and the homeowner(s) absolutely have the right to defend themselves, their family and their property in any way that they see fit.

In a country that seems to be really losing the plot when it comes to the rights of criminals, it's very encouraging to read this story and it gives me hope that all may not be lost after all.

I don't quite agree with you. You should be able to defend your home with reasonable force, not any way you see fit. I'd quite happily break the legs of someone who broke into my house, but I'd fully expect to be punished for that.

[Sir David Gray]

I don't quite agree with you. You should be able to defend your home with reasonable force, not any way you see fit. I'd quite happily break the legs of someone who broke into my house, but I'd fully expect to be punished for that.

I don't think you should be punished at all.

I've never been burgled but I can imagine that, if you were at home at the time, it would be a very frightening and traumatic experience. By the very nature of their actions, burglars are quite often violent people who use force and aggression to get what they're after.

When you're confronted by an intruder in your home, you have no idea if they have a weapon on them. Most people, when the adrenaline is in full flow, won't stand around and ask questions. They do what they think they have to do in order to protect themselves, their family and their possessions.

If I was on a jury, there is not a homeowner in the land that I would find guilty of murder/attempted murder/assault etc etc against a burglar who is inside their home at the time of the alleged offence.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

The guy who sparked this thread won't be charged.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14248097 Good news and hopefully acts as a deterrent to other burgulars. Break into someones home and you might come out in a body bag.

[Steve-O]

I don't think you should be punished at all.

I've never been burgled but I can imagine that, if you were at home at the time, it would be a very frightening and traumatic experience. By the very nature of their actions, burglars are quite often violent people who use force and aggression to get what they're after.

When you're confronted by an intruder in your home, you have no idea if they have a weapon on them. Most people, when the adrenaline is in full flow, won't stand around and ask questions. They do what they think they have to do in order to protect themselves, their family and their possessions.

If I was on a jury, there is not a homeowner in the land that I would find guilty of murder/attempted murder/assault etc etc against a burglar who is inside their home at the time of the alleged offence.

I hope that you are never on a jury then with the verdict in your mind before the case has even been presented :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

If he was found guilty, should he keep his job? or would he be getting punished twice if he lost it?

If he is found guilty, he'll lose his job because he'll be in jail.

[Hibbyradge]

If I was on a jury, there is not a homeowner in the land that I would find guilty of murder/attempted murder/assault etc etc against a burglar who is inside their home at the time of the alleged offence.

Worrying. :bitchy:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If he is found guilty, he'll lose his job because he'll be in jail. That was me having a cheap jibe at someone for their views posted on another thread.Cannae mind who or what it was about tho!

[Hibbyradge]

That was me having a cheap jibe at someone for their views posted on another thread.Cannae mind who or what it was about tho!

:hilarious :thumbsup:

[IWasThere2016]

Good to hear there is no case to answer .. that is the only proper outcome IMO.

[sleeping giant]

My Dad caught a burglar breaking in to our neighbours house on Christmas day when i was about 8.
I just remember my Dad grabbing a bottle and chasing this guy.
He caught him and brought him back to the house until the police came.


Gaun yersel auld Dad:thumbsup:

[IWasThere2016]

A similar case ???

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3717275/Shop-raider-stabbed-to-death.html

[hibsbollah]

I don't think you should be punished at all.I've never been burgled but I can imagine that, if you were at home at the time, it would be a very frightening and traumatic experience. By the very nature of their actions, burglars are quite often violent people who use force and aggression to get what they're after.When you're confronted by an intruder in your home, you have no idea if they have a weapon on them. Most people, when the adrenaline is in full flow, won't stand around and ask questions. They do what they think they have to do in order to protect themselves, their family and their possessions.If I was on a jury, there is not a homeowner in the land that I would find guilty of murder/attempted murder/assault etc etc against a burglar who is inside their home at the time of the alleged offence.The usual 'englishmans home is his castle' line. What if the victim was a tenant? What if he tortured the burglar at the same time? In English law at least, its all about 'reasonable steps'. Extreme violence is the only thing that would be likely to result in the homeowner being found guilty of a serious offence.This will be an interesting case...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14305192

[Sir David Gray]

I hope that you are never on a jury then with the verdict in your mind before the case has even been presented :rolleyes:


Worrying. :bitchy:

I don't see what evidence needs to be presented. Someone comes into someone else's property, invades their privacy and violates their safety, with the intention of robbing them of their personal belongings and the probability that they will use force to get what they are after.

If the homeowner decides to beat them to it and feels that it's necessary to use force on the intruder to prevent them or their family from being the ones who end up hurt or even killed, then I would be entirely comfortable with that scenario.

I'm sure there are many people who would do the same, if they were put in the position of passing judgement on a case like this.

I don't find my approach the slightest bit worrying.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't see what evidence needs to be presented. Someone comes into someone else's property, invades their privacy and violates their safety, with the intention of robbing them of their personal belongings and the probability that they will use force to get what they are after.

If the homeowner decides to beat them to it and feels that it's necessary to use force on the intruder to prevent them or their family from being the ones who end up hurt or even killed, then I would be entirely comfortable with that scenario.

I'm sure there are many people who would do the same, if they were put in the position of passing judgement on a case like this.

I don't find my approach the slightest bit worrying.

There's the worrying bit right there.

You make the assumption that all housebreakers are out to do damage; you use the word "probability". That therefore sets up the situation where it's acceptable to use violence against them, in any situation. The extension of that is that it's okay to use violence against anybody you see in the street, or at night, or who is wearing a hoodie.... just because you perceive that they are a threat. In other words, attack before you are attacked. That is the law of the jungle, and is not how a civilised society works.

They key word is "evidence". That is what our justice system is based on. Each case has to be examined on its own circumstances and evidence. The alternative is anarchy.

[LiverpoolHibs]

A guy I'm friendly with lives in a cul-de-sacc rounf the corner from myself and he was burgled early Sunday/ late Sunday. A despicable act and he's adamant the guilty party is getting 'done'. I reckon if the guy who broke in is found he mau well be chibbed and quite rightly so. Burglars, with the terror theyu often encroach, are the lowest of the low and deserve ****ing everyrything and every violent act that may stand in their way.

Hold on, you think it would be 'quite right' for your pal to track down the guy that broke into his house (or, of course, the guy that he thinks broke into his house - does it matter if he gets it wrong?) and stab him to death? You're a maniac.


I don't see what evidence needs to be presented. Someone comes into someone else's property, invades their privacy and violates their safety, with the intention of robbing them of their personal belongings and the probability that they will use force to get what they are after.

If the homeowner decides to beat them to it and feels that it's necessary to use force on the intruder to prevent them or their family from being the ones who end up hurt or even killed, then I would be entirely comfortable with that scenario.

I'm sure there are many people who would do the same, if they were put in the position of passing judgement on a case like this.

I don't find my approach the slightest bit worrying.

No offence or anything FH but you really are a very odd sort of Christian. Unless, that is, I'm just unaware of the Big Man caveating "Thou Shalt Not Kill" with 'except when some **** is trying to nick your telly'.

[CropleyWasGod]

Rubbish.Say you realise someone is downstair robbing you, what do you do? I'm no hard man etc, but I guaruntee the perpetrator would be confronted by myself. Its a topic pretty close to myself as the family home was broken into when I was younget and if ****ing do anyone who tried it again.

I call the police, and stay with my family to make sure they are okay. I certainly wouldn't be confronting someone who might do me damage.... life and limb are more important than DVDs.

[.Sean.]

Total steamed when posting that, subject matter whic has affected my family in the past so apologies if I've upset anyone.

[marinello59]

Total steamed when posting that, subject matter whic has affected my family in the past so apologies if I've upset anyone.

:greengrin

[steakbake]

I can get locks replaced, I can claim insurance for the telly but I cannot replace my life nor do I want it ruined by some spurious manslaughter/murder charge for the sake of some tit hell bent on nicking my stuff.

All this bravado about killing anyone who steps foot in your house without an invite is just the usual hot air from the usual suspects.

I'm surprised I've not read any "I'd do time..." or "I'd get a good night's sleep at the end of it..." sort of stuff.

[Twa Cairpets]

I don't see what evidence needs to be presented. Someone comes into someone else's property, invades their privacy and violates their safety, with the intention of robbing them of their personal belongings and the probability that they will use force to get what they are after.

If the homeowner decides to beat them to it and feels that it's necessary to use force on the intruder to prevent them or their family from being the ones who end up hurt or even killed, then I would be entirely comfortable with that scenario.

I'm sure there are many people who would do the same, if they were put in the position of passing judgement on a case like this.

I don't find my approach the slightest bit worrying.

A few years ago I was sitting in my back room watching telly at about 1.00 in the morning. I heard the front door open, noisily, and got up and ran through to the hall, adrenalin pumping to be met by a guy standing there. I'm quite a big lad, and fist clenched and ready to launch myself at him, came out with something "what the **** are you doing". Turned out he had burst into my house, at the end of a cul de sac, to get away from some local neds who were chasing him. He was absoultely terrified, and I ended up, somewhat bizarrely, making him a cup of tea and driving him home, but thats by the by. The point is that if I'd been in bed, I could have been shocked awake, come downstairs, seen this guy in the hall and leathered him a shot from behind, maybe injuring him badly or worse. Would that have been ok?

I know my circumstance is a very unusual one, but it is an example of why the question of proportionality is vital. If summary execution is acceptable in your eyes - because that is what you are advocating - you have a very, very warped view of what constitutes justice.

[Woody1985]

There's the worrying bit right there.You make the assumption that all housebreakers are out to do damage; you use the word "probability". That therefore sets up the situation where it's acceptable to use violence against them, in any situation. The extension of that is that it's okay to use violence against anybody you see in the street, or at night, or who is wearing a hoodie.... just because you perceive that they are a threat. In other words, attack before you are attacked. That is the law of the jungle, and is not how a civilised society works.They key word is "evidence". That is what our justice system is based on. Each case has to be examined on its own circumstances and evidence. The alternative is anarchy.Would you ask them nicely to leave, stand by and let them walk away with your possessions, some which can't be replaced by money. Would you politely inform them you're calling the police? How would you expect them to react?I could understand your view point if you were in a position where you'd called the police and locked you and everyone in the house in the same room and waited for the police but that's not always going to be an option.If you're confronted by someone in your house and they get the **** kicked out them that's their problem.

[Twa Cairpets]

Would you ask them nicely to leave, stand by and let them walk away with your possessions, some which can't be replaced by money. Would you politely inform them you're calling the police? How would you expect them to react?I could understand your view point if you were in a position where you'd called the police and locked you and everyone in the house in the same room and waited for the police but that's not always going to be an option.If you're confronted by someone in your house and they get the **** kicked out them that's their problem.

Do you do enough to stop them doing the crime and posing any threat, or do you go on to perform summary justice by giving them a good hiding too? If you've distrubed the burglary and theyve dropped everything and run, is it ok to chase after them and teach them a lesson? Is a quick punch to the face ok, or should you continue to kick them in the nuts when theyre down and incapacitated?

No-one is defending any type of rights for a burglar, I dont think. The issue is the (apparent) acceptance by some posters to think that killing someone for threatening to nick your PS3 is, as a default position, ok.

[Woody1985]

Do you do enough to stop them doing the crime and posing any threat, or do you go on to perform summary justice by giving them a good hiding too? If you've distrubed the burglary and theyve dropped everything and run, is it ok to chase after them and teach them a lesson? Is a quick punch to the face ok, or should you continue to kick them in the nuts when theyre down and incapacitated?

No-one is defending any type of rights for a burglar, I dont think. The issue is the (apparent) acceptance by some posters to think that killing someone for threatening to nick your PS3 is, as a default position, ok.

I think this is the key point.

If you are in a situation where you stumble across a burglar and they run, close the door/whatever and call the police.

If you come across someone who is unarmed but approaches you in an aggresive manner and you are unarmed/armed (same thing for me in this instance) you do what you can to protect yourself. If that ends up with the burglar getting a beating and/or the person being accidenally killed then tough titty.

If someone is armed and you are armed/unarmed do what you need to so that you are okay at the end of it.

The only grey area for me is the second point and it should be judged accordingly but like one or two others I'd probably side with the homeowner.

Burglary doesn't just affect material goods, some people can no longer stay in their homes as they no longer feel safe, priceless items can be taken or destroyed.

What I would say is that I'm mates with a guy whose brother is a serial housebreaker and he's had more hidings than he'll care to remember but he still continues to do it. I don't think the act of hurting them will necessarily put them off again but they get what the deserve IMO. Thankfully that little scrote is in jail now.

[Hibrandenburg]

Would you ask them nicely to leave, stand by and let them walk away with your possessions, some which can't be replaced by money. Would you politely inform them you're calling the police? How would you expect them to react?I could understand your view point if you were in a position where you'd called the police and locked you and everyone in the house in the same room and waited for the police but that's not always going to be an option.If you're confronted by someone in your house and they get the **** kicked out them that's their problem.
I'd immobilise the blighter using the vice like Vulcan Sleep Grip and then drag him down into the cellar. After stripping him naked I'd fit him with my hobby mask made out of an old leather dogs leash and billiard ball before calling up all my mates and invite them round for a gimp party.
Ye kenn what ah mean likesay!

[Woody1985]

I'd immobilise the blighter using the vice like Vulcan Sleep Grip and then drag him down into the cellar. After stripping him naked I'd fit him with my hobby mask made out of an old leather dogs leash and billiard ball before calling up all my mates and invite them round for a gimp party.
Ye kenn what ah mean likesay!

Kinky. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Total steamed when posting that, subject matter whic has affected my family in the past so apologies if I've upset anyone.


Yeah, you were so steamed you wandered into the wrong house. Aren't you glad it was my place, where you got a polite welcome, a nice cup of tea and directions to your actual gaff?

Now, had the house been in Falkirk....:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah, you were so steamed you wandered into the wrong house. Aren't you glad it was my place, where you got a polite welcome, a nice cup of tea and directions to your actual gaff?

Now, had the house been in Falkirk....:greengrin

Or Berlin ;-)

[Dashing Bob S]

I don't think you should be punished at all.

I've never been burgled but I can imagine that, if you were at home at the time, it would be a very frightening and traumatic experience. By the very nature of their actions, burglars are quite often violent people who use force and aggression to get what they're after.

When you're confronted by an intruder in your home, you have no idea if they have a weapon on them. Most people, when the adrenaline is in full flow, won't stand around and ask questions. They do what they think they have to do in order to protect themselves, their family and their possessions.

If I was on a jury, there is not a homeowner in the land that I would find guilty of murder/attempted murder/assault etc etc against a burglar who is inside their home at the time of the alleged offence.

This isn't actually the case. Any law enforcement professional will tell you that most burglars want to be in and out quickly, and are, by their nature and the choice of their favoured crime, aversive to confrontation. The ones you hear about are generally the exceptions as such confrontations are more dramatic and thus newsworthy. Truth is, the vast majority of burglars are wimps who will scarper at any sign of bother. They tend to have, according to my polis superintendent neighbour, a totally different mindset to the mugger, who often buzzes on physical confrontation and aggro.

The best thing to remember when somebody tries to burgle you house is to make a lot of loud, threatening noise, and don't get in between them and their means of escape or it could turn nasty -unless you want it to, which is another matter.

Basically, if I was burgled and something got nicked, (it's happened before) I wouldn't be doing cartwheels about it, but I can't say I'd think it was the end of the world. But I certainly wouldn't want some intruder in a house with women and children present - I wouldn't trust myself not to incline towards extreme violence in such a situation.

[Killiehibbie]

This isn't actually the case. Any law enforcement professional will tell you that most burglars want to be in and out quickly, and are, by their nature and the choice of their favoured crime, aversive to confrontation. The ones you hear about are generally the exceptions as such confrontations are more dramatic and thus newsworthy. Truth is, the vast majority of burglars are wimps who will scarper at any sign of bother. They tend to have, according to my polis superintendent neighbour, a totally different mindset to the mugger, who often buzzes on physical confrontation and aggro.

The best thing to remember when somebody tries to burgle you house is to make a lot of loud, threatening noise, and don't get in between them and their means of escape or it could turn nasty -unless you want it to, which is another matter.

Basically, if I was burgled and something got nicked, (it's happened before) I wouldn't be doing cartwheels about it, but I can't say I'd think it was the end of the world. But I certainly wouldn't want some intruder in a house with women and children present - I wouldn't trust myself not to incline towards extreme violence in such a situation.And if anyone is money orientated there is always the opportunity to inflate any insurance claim to compensate for the traumatic experience of having your home ransacked. Not that I would ever suggest anyone ever do such a thing.

[Dashing Bob S]

And if anyone is money orientated there is always the opportunity to inflate any insurance claim to compensate for the traumatic experience of having your home ransacked. Not that I would ever suggest anyone ever do such a thing.

Indeed, proving again that there's no such thing as a victimless crime. Burglars burgle, householders make fraudulent insurance claims and who puts the bill once again? The poor insurance companies and their shareholders. Makes my blood boil. (No, it actually doesn't - it makes my sides split.)

[Sir David Gray]

There's the worrying bit right there.

You make the assumption that all housebreakers are out to do damage; you use the word "probability". That therefore sets up the situation where it's acceptable to use violence against them, in any situation. The extension of that is that it's okay to use violence against anybody you see in the street, or at night, or who is wearing a hoodie.... just because you perceive that they are a threat. In other words, attack before you are attacked. That is the law of the jungle, and is not how a civilised society works.

They key word is "evidence". That is what our justice system is based on. Each case has to be examined on its own circumstances and evidence. The alternative is anarchy.

That's not what I'm saying in the slightest. I haven't mentioned anything at all about people having the right to use violence against someone just because they perceive them to be a threat. I'm talking explicitly about people who are actually a threat, people who are in the process of mugging you or who are in the process of burgling your property. As far as I'm concerned, these people are fair game for the victim to challenge them to a square-go.

OK, in the cold light of day, you might look back and think "it was only a telly" or "it was only a DVD recorder" and I can get a new one. But, at the time, you don't think about that and the rage that someone is trying to rob you of your personal property will take over because you've probably worked hard to be able to afford items like that. Then all of a sudden, you get some sc*mbag coming into your home, who has probably never worked a day in their life, trying to take those possessions so that they can pay for their drug habit.

I don't agree with chasing someone down the street, once they have left your house, and then giving them a hiding because the threat to you is then gone. However, whilst they remain in your home, they are a legitimate target as far as I'm concerned and they deserve all they get.


No offence or anything FH but you really are a very odd sort of Christian. Unless, that is, I'm just unaware of the Big Man caveating "Thou Shalt Not Kill" with 'except when some **** is trying to nick your telly'.

People often make the mistake of equating being a Christian with being a doormat or an easy target. As far as I'm concerned, homeowners are quite entitled to use force against people who are in their home and trying to rob them of their personal belongings.

And anyway, I said I was a Christian, I've never said that I was a good Christian. :wink:


A few years ago I was sitting in my back room watching telly at about 1.00 in the morning. I heard the front door open, noisily, and got up and ran through to the hall, adrenalin pumping to be met by a guy standing there. I'm quite a big lad, and fist clenched and ready to launch myself at him, came out with something "what the **** are you doing". Turned out he had burst into my house, at the end of a cul de sac, to get away from some local neds who were chasing him. He was absoultely terrified, and I ended up, somewhat bizarrely, making him a cup of tea and driving him home, but thats by the by. The point is that if I'd been in bed, I could have been shocked awake, come downstairs, seen this guy in the hall and leathered him a shot from behind, maybe injuring him badly or worse. Would that have been ok?

I know my circumstance is a very unusual one, but it is an example of why the question of proportionality is vital. If summary execution is acceptable in your eyes - because that is what you are advocating - you have a very, very warped view of what constitutes justice.

No, it wouldn't have been ok and I think you know that's not what I'm talking about. Like you say, you've chosen a very exceptional set of circumstances. I am talking purely about people who are obviously in your house and attempting to steal from you.

I would actually be very wary of someone entering my house under the circumstances you've described and I would feel quite uneasy about it all but it's clearly not valid or acceptable grounds for a physical assault.


This isn't actually the case. Any law enforcement professional will tell you that most burglars want to be in and out quickly, and are, by their nature and the choice of their favoured crime, aversive to confrontation. The ones you hear about are generally the exceptions as such confrontations are more dramatic and thus newsworthy. Truth is, the vast majority of burglars are wimps who will scarper at any sign of bother. They tend to have, according to my polis superintendent neighbour, a totally different mindset to the mugger, who often buzzes on physical confrontation and aggro.

The best thing to remember when somebody tries to burgle you house is to make a lot of loud, threatening noise, and don't get in between them and their means of escape or it could turn nasty -unless you want it to, which is another matter.

Basically, if I was burgled and something got nicked, (it's happened before) I wouldn't be doing cartwheels about it, but I can't say I'd think it was the end of the world. But I certainly wouldn't want some intruder in a house with women and children present - I wouldn't trust myself not to incline towards extreme violence in such a situation.

Were you present in the house and aware you were being burgled when it was taking place or did it take place when you were out, on holiday or asleep? I would think that most people who are alerted to an intruder in their home would act accordingly and would want to give the said intruder a real doing and I cannot say that I can blame them for that.

If you break into someone's home, that's the chance you take.

[LiverpoolHibs]

People often make the mistake of equating being a Christian with being a doormat or an easy target. As far as I'm concerned, homeowners are quite entitled to use force against people who are in their home and trying to rob them of their personal belongings.

And anyway, I said I was a Christian, I've never said that I was a good Christian. :wink:

No they don't. They just take you at your word when you state that you try to live your life in accordance with the example of Jesus. If someone had broken into J.C.'s pad and stolen his XBox would he have thought it his right to murder them there and then?

[steakbake]

No they don't. They just take you at your word when you state that you try to live your life in accordance with the example of Jesus. If someone had broken into J.C.'s pad and stolen his XBox would he have thought it his right to murder them there and then?

No, but his dad might smite them later on.

[ArabHibee]

No, but his dad might smite them later on. :tee hee:

[Dashing Bob S]

That's not what I'm saying in the slightest. I haven't mentioned anything at all about people having the right to use violence against someone just because they perceive them to be a threat. I'm talking explicitly about people who are actually a threat, people who are in the process of mugging you or who are in the process of burgling your property. As far as I'm concerned, these people are fair game for the victim to challenge them to a square-go.

OK, in the cold light of day, you might look back and think "it was only a telly" or "it was only a DVD recorder" and I can get a new one. But, at the time, you don't think about that and the rage that someone is trying to rob you of your personal property will take over because you've probably worked hard to be able to afford items like that. Then all of a sudden, you get some sc*mbag coming into your home, who has probably never worked a day in their life, trying to take those possessions so that they can pay for their drug habit.

I don't agree with chasing someone down the street, once they have left your house, and then giving them a hiding because the threat to you is then gone. However, whilst they remain in your home, they are a legitimate target as far as I'm concerned and they deserve all they get.



People often make the mistake of equating being a Christian with being a doormat or an easy target. As far as I'm concerned, homeowners are quite entitled to use force against people who are in their home and trying to rob them of their personal belongings.

And anyway, I said I was a Christian, I've never said that I was a good Christian. :wink:



No, it wouldn't have been ok and I think you know that's not what I'm talking about. Like you say, you've chosen a very exceptional set of circumstances. I am talking purely about people who are obviously in your house and attempting to steal from you.

I would actually be very wary of someone entering my house under the circumstances you've described and I would feel quite uneasy about it all but it's clearly not valid or acceptable grounds for a physical assault.



Were you present in the house and aware you were being burgled when it was taking place or did it take place when you were out, on holiday or asleep? I would think that most people who are alerted to an intruder in their home would act accordingly and would want to give the said intruder a real doing and I cannot say that I can blame them for that.

If you break into someone's home, that's the chance you take.

The last one happened while we were out for a meal. Came back and a patio door had been smashed and entry gained. We didn't actually discover it till the next day as we'd gone straight upstairs to bed. Nothing irreplaceable taken, and we got an alarm system fitted after that.

I have a couple of samurai swords from Japan on my bedroom wall, and I've seen myself imagine I heard a break-in noise and go downstairs to investigate, but usually when I've drank too much wine with gamey food and eaten a strong cheese and had difficulty sleeping.

[Steve-O]

This isn't actually the case. Any law enforcement professional will tell you that most burglars want to be in and out quickly, and are, by their nature and the choice of their favoured crime, aversive to confrontation. The ones you hear about are generally the exceptions as such confrontations are more dramatic and thus newsworthy. Truth is, the vast majority of burglars are wimps who will scarper at any sign of bother. They tend to have, according to my polis superintendent neighbour, a totally different mindset to the mugger, who often buzzes on physical confrontation and aggro.

The best thing to remember when somebody tries to burgle you house is to make a lot of loud, threatening noise, and don't get in between them and their means of escape or it could turn nasty -unless you want it to, which is another matter.

Basically, if I was burgled and something got nicked, (it's happened before) I wouldn't be doing cartwheels about it, but I can't say I'd think it was the end of the world. But I certainly wouldn't want some intruder in a house with women and children present - I wouldn't trust myself not to incline towards extreme violence in such a situation.

Correct - burglars generally target empty houses and FalkirkHibee's comment is simply ludicrous and unfounded speculation that he appears to have just made up in his own head.

For the most part if you shout aggressively without even seeing the person they will do a runner, as you mention above.

[Dashing Bob S]

Correct - burglars generally target empty houses and FalkirkHibee's comment is simply ludicrous and unfounded speculation that he appears to have just made up in his own head.

For the most part if you shout aggressively without even seeing the person they will do a runner, as you mention above.

Nonsense - it was god who told him that.

[HibsMax]

On mobile, so can't post a link, but read a story about 4 masked men, one of whom had a knife, broke into a house in Salford, a struggle happened and one of the burglars was stabbed and killed. The father of the 'victim' has said people deserve to protect their property, something I wholeheartedly agree with, but is their a line to cross? If the guy was killed because he was stabbed with a knife brought into the house, I reckon he got what he deserved and no charges should be brought against the guy trying to protect his home and family.

In general I would agree with that. If you break into my house with a weapon and there is a struggle which results in you dying from wounds sustained from that weapon, tough sh*t. BUT, let's say you break into my house with a knife and the knife is a deterrent. I come down the stairs to investigate the noise, you see me and flee. If I chase you down, trip you, grab your knife and stab you to death, THAT is not just and the homeowner deserves to be prosecuted in my opinion. Depends on all the details.

Across here, in some places (can't tar everyone with the same brush - depends on the individual) I think people are more likely to strike and ask questions after....and who can blame them? The simple fact of the matter is you do not belong in my house uninvited but if that's a risk you want to take, you have to be prepared to face the dire consequences.

EDIT : read some of the other posts and, um. While I agree with protecting yourself using whatever force is necessary, I don't agree with going above and beyond. If the guy is out the house and there is no longer a threat to your family, there is no reason to go chasing him down. Apart from anything else, YOU might end up getting killed yourself if the guy is forced to stop and put up a fight. I appreciate that belongings with sentimental value cannot be replaced but that is not a valid reason to take someone's life or put them in a wheelchair for the rest of their life. It's a tough call because I've never been in that situation before but I can imagine the adrenalin is flowing, the red mist comes down and you enter some sort of base, animal mode and you're not even fully aware of what you're doing.

[McHibby]

In general I would agree with that. If you break into my house with a weapon and there is a struggle which results in you dying from wounds sustained from that weapon, tough sh*t. BUT, let's say you break into my house with a knife and the knife is a deterrent. I come down the stairs to investigate the noise, you see me and flee. If I chase you down, trip you, grab your knife and stab you to death, THAT is not just and the homeowner deserves to be prosecuted in my opinion. Depends on all the details.


There was a case like that not too long ago, where a guy and his brother chased a burglar and leathered him with a cricket bat (If I remember rightly the dude is completely brain damaged now). They were initially jailed, but freed/sentence reduced on appeal. My own view is once the burglar has left the house the immediate threat is over and so there is no justification for violence. I do understand that emotions can take over, and why some folk might think it's alright to batter someone who's just broke into your house, but chasing someone once the threat has passed is really just about revenge not self-defence.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23797488-set-free-man-who-beat-up-intruder-with-bat.do

[Killiehibbie]

There was a case like that not too long ago, where a guy and his brother chased a burglar and leathered him with a cricket bat (If I remember rightly the dude is completely brain damaged now). They were initially jailed, but freed/sentence reduced on appeal. My own view is once the burglar has left the house the immediate threat is over and so there is no justification for violence. I do understand that emotions can take over, and why some folk might think it's alright to batter someone who's just broke into your house, but chasing someone once the threat has passed is really just about revenge not self-defence.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23797488-set-free-man-who-beat-up-intruder-with-bat.doIt's all about crime prevention as this burglar won't be doing it again.

[essexhibee]

My grandparents house was broken into once, grandad heard a disturbance downstairs but instead of steaming downstairs he turned the hall light on. In line with what others have said above that fear of a confrontation and the chance of letting these **** escape meant know one got hurt. When he did go down the tv set was in the process of being moved with the cables all out, and three guys were bolting up the path.

The day later he was in the pub speaking to his drinking mate, a hard man to say the least. He told him of the burglary and this guy replied by saying he would find out who did it and make sure they never bothered them again. These mugs got the kickin of their lives and rightly so imo.

[da-robster]

It's all about crime prevention as this burglar won't be doing it again.

Killing someone who litters would mean they never did it again, that doesn't make it right.

[Killiehibbie]

Killing someone who litters would mean they never did it again, that doesn't make it right.It does if they drop their litter in my daughters bedroom during the night.

[greenlex]

Killing someone who litters would mean they never did it again, that doesn't make it right.
We could always cut their hands off. That would make littering difficult but not impossible. Kinda leaves the onus on them to mend their ways.

[blackpoolhibs]

I have been burgled twice, they were when we owned the hotel in blackpool. The first time i let the bugger out the front door myself thinking he was a guest. When the proper guests came home, they came to us to tell us their rooms had been done over.

That week we bought cctv and had them all over the joint. Well bugger me the same bloke came back the next weekend. :greengrin I watched him go upstairs to the bedrooms and then locked the front door with the mortice lock.

When he came down i attacked him and smashed him to pulp, ramming an glass ashtray into his mouth, smacked him with my 9.5 degree taylor made driver all over his head.

He sustained a broken jaw fractured skull broken ribs and some damage to his spleen. I then calmly unlocked the door, gave my golf clubs to a neighbour and rang the police.

When they arrived he was laying on the floor of the bar, and the constables first words were hallo steven how are you?

He was a serial burglar, he imo deserved every second of his punishment. He went to hospital and tried to get me charged with his injuries, but i also had been to hospital for treatment to my 3 broken knuckles. And the result was £2k compensation for me.:thumbsup:

When i was giving my statement, i obviously did not tell them everything, but when i said anything that was incriminating against me, the officer quietly asked me if i was sure, virtually telling me to change what i was saying.

He got 18 months, but did 10. The first day he was out he was caught again, and recieved another 3 years the police told me.

The 2nd one was funny, i was in the bar with my mate, an 18 stone rugby player. And never spotted this scrote go up the stairs to the rooms. I happened to see him coming down the stairs, and knew he was not a guest as he claimed, as we had 30 girls in, no men at all.

I pushed him into the bar, Paul my mate stood in front of him and i instructed him to strip.When naked i went through his clothes, but he had nothing apart from £5 and a memory card for a play station 2 plus a newspaper clipping.

I threw his clothes out the front door shoes an all only to hit a police car going past with his shoes.:greengrin

They stopped to find out what was going on, and they also knew the tosser in the nude. He then said he'd volunteered to take his kit off to prove he was not trying to screw the place, but only going to the toilet.

As he'd done no crime the police told him to get dressed and go on his way. I kept his £5.:wink:

Burglars dont come near my house, if you do you will get more than you bargained for if i catch you.

[Hibrandenburg]

I have been burgled twice, they were when we owned the hotel in blackpool. The first time i let the bugger out the front door myself thinking he was a guest. When the proper guests came home, they came to us to tell us their rooms had been done over.

That week we bought cctv and had them all over the joint. Well bugger me the same bloke came back the next weekend. :greengrin I watched him go upstairs to the bedrooms and then locked the front door with the mortice lock.

When he came down i attacked him and smashed him to pulp, ramming an glass ashtray into his mouth, smacked him with my 9.5 degree taylor made driver all over his head.

He sustained a broken jaw fractured skull broken ribs and some damage to his spleen. I then calmly unlocked the door, gave my golf clubs to a neighbour and rang the police.

When they arrived he was laying on the floor of the bar, and the constables first words were hallo steven how are you?

He was a serial burglar, he imo deserved every second of his punishment. He went to hospital and tried to get me charged with his injuries, but i also had been to hospital for treatment to my 3 broken knuckles. And the result was £2k compensation for me.:thumbsup:

When i was giving my statement, i obviously did not tell them everything, but when i said anything that was incriminating against me, the officer quietly asked me if i was sure, virtually telling me to change what i was saying.

He got 18 months, but did 10. The first day he was out he was caught again, and recieved another 3 years the police told me.

The 2nd one was funny, i was in the bar with my mate, an 18 stone rugby player. And never spotted this scrote go up the stairs to the rooms. I happened to see him coming down the stairs, and knew he was not a guest as he claimed, as we had 30 girls in, no men at all.

I pushed him into the bar, Paul my mate stood in front of him and i instructed him to strip.When naked i went through his clothes, but he had nothing apart from £5 and a memory card for a play station 2 plus a newspaper clipping.

I threw his clothes out the front door shoes an all only to hit a police car going past with his shoes.:greengrin

They stopped to find out what was going on, and they also knew the tosser in the nude. He then said he'd volunteered to take his kit off to prove he was not trying to screw the place, but only going to the toilet.

As he'd done no crime the police told him to get dressed and go on his way. I kept his £5.:wink:

Burglars dont come near my house, if you do you will get more than you bargained for if i catch you.
I bow to your superior golf skills. In such a situation a 9iron would be my club of choice.

[blackpoolhibs]

I bow to your superior golf skills. In such a situation a 9iron would be my club of choice.

You have not thought this through right, a 9 iron would make more of a mess. A driver gives you a much bigger coverage, and less detectable as a weapon. To be fair both would do the job though. :wink:

[Dashing Bob S]

I have been burgled twice, they were when we owned the hotel in blackpool. The first time i let the bugger out the front door myself thinking he was a guest. When the proper guests came home, they came to us to tell us their rooms had been done over.

That week we bought cctv and had them all over the joint. Well bugger me the same bloke came back the next weekend. :greengrin I watched him go upstairs to the bedrooms and then locked the front door with the mortice lock.

When he came down i attacked him and smashed him to pulp, ramming an glass ashtray into his mouth, smacked him with my 9.5 degree taylor made driver all over his head.

He sustained a broken jaw fractured skull broken ribs and some damage to his spleen. I then calmly unlocked the door, gave my golf clubs to a neighbour and rang the police.

When they arrived he was laying on the floor of the bar, and the constables first words were hallo steven how are you?

He was a serial burglar, he imo deserved every second of his punishment. He went to hospital and tried to get me charged with his injuries, but i also had been to hospital for treatment to my 3 broken knuckles. And the result was £2k compensation for me.:thumbsup:

When i was giving my statement, i obviously did not tell them everything, but when i said anything that was incriminating against me, the officer quietly asked me if i was sure, virtually telling me to change what i was saying.

He got 18 months, but did 10. The first day he was out he was caught again, and recieved another 3 years the police told me.

The 2nd one was funny, i was in the bar with my mate, an 18 stone rugby player. And never spotted this scrote go up the stairs to the rooms. I happened to see him coming down the stairs, and knew he was not a guest as he claimed, as we had 30 girls in, no men at all.

I pushed him into the bar, Paul my mate stood in front of him and i instructed him to strip.When naked i went through his clothes, but he had nothing apart from £5 and a memory card for a play station 2 plus a newspaper clipping.

I threw his clothes out the front door shoes an all only to hit a police car going past with his shoes.:greengrin

They stopped to find out what was going on, and they also knew the tosser in the nude. He then said he'd volunteered to take his kit off to prove he was not trying to screw the place, but only going to the toilet.

As he'd done no crime the police told him to get dressed and go on his way. I kept his £5.:wink:

Burglars dont come near my house, if you do you will get more than you bargained for if i catch you.

No wonder you got that Hun chick into bed, BH.

I'm going to have to hone my methods of seduction to compete.

[blackpoolhibs]

No wonder you got that Hun chick into bed, BH.

I'm going to have to hone my methods of seduction to compete.

That was just foreplay with her. :greengrin

[HibsMax]

You have not thought this through right, a 9 iron would make more of a mess. A driver gives you a much bigger coverage, and less detectable as a weapon. To be fair both would do the job though. :wink:

How does the 9.5 degree compare with the 10.5 degree? I have the 10.5 and now I'm thinking that I might need to upgrade.

[blackpoolhibs]

How does the 9.5 degree compare with the 10.5 degree? I have the 10.5 and now I'm thinking that I might need to upgrade.

The 10.5 degree one is slightly forgiving, if you are aiming for the nose you might get a bit of it if you are a bit off with your swing.

You find you have to be a bit more precise when aiming the 9.5, although the pleasure you get when hitting your choice of object flush on the nose cant be described. :wink: