Orange walks

[1two]

I had the mispleasure of witnessing one of these today in the royal mile.

How can we as a country supposedly trying to address our sectarian problems allow something that is very clearly bigoted to happen annually?
There would quite rightly be outrage if the EDL marched through Edinburgh so why do we allow this? Is anti-catholic bigotry acceptable and if not why are we not banning these bigot parades?
All that said I'd hate to give them even more publicity which would be generated if someone had the balls to stand up and ban them or at least speak out against them.

And another thing, I saw at least 2 rangers tops and 1 hearts top marching beside them. Get a ****ing life you halfwits!

[Removed]

I thought it was forces day in the town today :confused: why would the council allow an orange parade when the area will be busy with military family, locals and tourists :dunno:

[Gatecrasher]

I thought it was forces day in the town today :confused: why would the council allow an orange parade when the area will be busy with military family, locals and tourists :dunno:
:agree:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-13914940

looked like no bad day out TBH

[Golden Bear]

I had the mispleasure of witnessing one of these today in the royal mile.

How can we as a country supposedly trying to address our sectarian problems allow something that is very clearly bigoted to happen annually?
There would quite rightly be outrage if the EDL marched through Edinburgh so why do we allow this? Is anti-catholic bigotry acceptable and if not why are we not banning these bigot parades?
All that said I'd hate to give them even more publicity which would be generated if someone had the balls to stand up and ban them or at least speak out against them.

And another thing, I saw at least 2 rangers tops and 1 hearts top marching beside them. Get a ****ing life you halfwits!

Careful -------- you'll enrage all the human rights activists on the Messageboard.

:wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Is Orangeism anti-Catholic bigotry, or pro Protestant celebration? Besides, I am happier knowing who these bams are and how insignificant they are.

You'd be hard pushed to find one with a decent hair cut, or who is over five foot six. Let them parade, it's their right to look like idiots, and if the Catholic church is threatened by their existence, it is a weaker organisation than it appears.

[Removed]

Careful -------- you'll enrage all the human rights activists on the Messageboard.

:wink:

I agree with the OP to the extent of why do we have this crap in Edinburgh. Was that really part of the forces day or seperate? Having been in NI on 12th July and seen it for myself I can't see any link with our forces.

[ArabHibee]

1two - are you sure it was an orange parade and not the armed forces parade? Orange walks wear sashes, if that's any help.

[1two]

1two - are you sure it was an orange parade and not the armed forces parade? Orange walks wear sashes, if that's any help.

100% it was an orange parade

Sashes, drums, flutes, Hun tops etc

[Sodje_18]

I thought thats what I heard earlier, then all the wee huns on facebook were going on about how great it is. Willing to bet my house that the majority of them won't even know what it's for. :bitchy:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

100% it was an orange parade

Sashes, drums, flutes, Hun tops etc

I might be completely wrong here, but, could it not have been 2 separate events. I saw them marching down Lady Lawson Street yday, but, from a distance it looked and sounded like an Orange Walk. Could be wrong though!

[ginger_rice]

It was an orange walk...I was on the Armed Forces day parade, we laid a wreath at the Falklands memorial in Princes St gardens and then walked round to Johnston Terrace for the main parade, there were at least 8 coaches of orangemen parked in Castle Street at 10 o clock. One bus was full of muppets in Hearts tops.

[ginger_rice]

I might be completely wrong here, but, could it not have been 2 separate events. I saw them marching down Lady Lawson Street yday, but, from a distance it looked and sounded like an Orange Walk. Could be wrong though!

No you are right two completely separate events, in the main most of the ex-service community view the Orange Order with the same disdain that they have for the "up the RA" brigade, there is no way they would be welcome anywhere near an Armed Forces or veterans parade.

[ginger_rice]

I agree with the OP to the extent of why do we have this crap in Edinburgh. Was that really part of the forces day or seperate? Having been in NI on 12th July and seen it for myself I can't see any link with our forces.

No absolutely no link whatsoever

[Removed]

No absolutely no link whatsoever

Cheers, didn't think it would be. Still don't know why we have to put up with that crap in Edinburgh though. You'd think the council had stacks of cash to waste....... :hmmm: never mind the message that these parades send out.

[Dunbar Hibee]

********s. Need shot the lot of the twats.

[Lucius Apuleius]

It was an orange walk...I was on the Armed Forces day parade, we laid a wreath at the Falklands memorial in Princes St gardens and then walked round to Johnston Terrace for the main parade, there were at least 8 coaches of orangemen parked in Castle Street at 10 o clock. One bus was full of muppets in Hearts tops.

Could we not have had a wee breach of the peace and got the ex forces guys to rip into them? :agree:

[1two]

Is Orangeism anti-Catholic bigotry, or pro Protestant celebration? Besides, I am happier knowing who these bams are and how insignificant they are.

You'd be hard pushed to find one with a decent hair cut, or who is over five foot six. Let them parade, it's their right to look like idiots, and if the Catholic church is threatened by their existence, it is a weaker organisation than it appears.

Anti catholic!
It's an organisation whose sole purpose is to celebrate king William of orange whose army defeated a catholic army about 400 years ago. Catholics aren't allowed in and anyone related to Catholics are not allowed in. (I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want in anyway) the march takes place on the anniversary of the battle.

If it was similar circumstances and some sort of pro white organisation decided to start marching (blacks not allowed obviously) do you think the council would allow it?

Is there a difference?

Even more so, would they allow down Edinburghs main tourist roads on the same day as there was already a large gathering for a separate event?

Another thought- these orange walk traditionally happen around the 12th, why would they have asked to change it to 2 weeks later? And why would the council ok it?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Another thought- these orange walk traditionally happen around the 12th, why would they have asked to change it to 2 weeks later? And why would the council ok it?


it's the 12th of july(or nearest sunday to it IIRC), not june, but i agree, ban them all, or just have one big sash fest and get it over and done with

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anti catholic!
It's an organisation whose sole purpose is to celebrate king William of orange whose army defeated a catholic army about 400 years ago. Catholics aren't allowed in and anyone related to Catholics are not allowed in. (I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want in anyway) the march takes place on the anniversary of the battle.

If it was similar circumstances and some sort of pro white organisation decided to start marching (blacks not allowed obviously) do you think the council would allow it?

Is there a difference?

Even more so, would they allow down Edinburghs main tourist roads on the same day as there was already a large gathering for a separate event?

Another thought- these orange walk traditionally happen around the 12th, why would they have asked to change it to 2 weeks later? And why would the council ok it?

You also have to accept that not many Protestants ever make it to the position of Pope.

Surely the fundamental tenet of the Protestant faith is to reject Roman Catholicism? Banning the Oranjes would just fuel their sense that they are being oppressed even more.

The Orangemen would say that the battle they fought was a victory over Rome's attempt to impose the Catholic faith on them. Personally, I think that these fundamentalists ignore the Protestant principle of tolerance and should show a bit more sensitivity. I do believe that both sides should learn a bit more about each other's history and the differences between them, and maybe they could both go their own way happily.

I don't have a problem with the council allowing freedom of expression, even if it is expressing a view I don't hold. As I said before, I'd rather these people were allowed to make a show of themselves so that we can all laugh at their intransigence and stupidty. For that reason, I also don't have a problem with men dressing up in purple frocks, and silly hats, and claiming they have the only direct line to God.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Too true FR, I see what you've done there! smirking smiley!

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Is Orangeism anti-Catholic bigotry, or pro Protestant celebration? Besides, I am happier knowing who these bams are and how insignificant they are.

You'd be hard pushed to find one with a decent hair cut, or who is over five foot six. Let them parade, it's their right to look like idiots, and if the Catholic church is threatened by their existence, it is a weaker organisation than it appears.

according to bbc norn irelands recent series named 'Story of Ireland' (excellent by the way) orangeism is both anti RC and a celebration of prods in north of ireland. The Orange Order are the only sectarian group who still march in the Capital. Silly insecure men with little egos.

[Bad Martini]

Ah think they should be allowed to march for as long and wherever they like.

...as long as someone can supply (the rest of us with) 8374397534759347597 eggs,4584095843085043850 tonnes of flower and a REALLY big ****-off gutty to send over the ingredients with :thumbsup:

Bunch of erses the lot of them. Nae marches for anything. Lets ban ALL marches. Undemocratic? Unhelpful? Maybe. Times of osterity what will we have:

1) Police orange (or any other) marches?
2) Mair money for hospitals, schools, etc?

...hard one that. Lets waste cash on pointless fricking marches that piss everyone off and lets pay lots of polis to make them behave :rolleyes:

[Killiehibbie]

Ah think they should be allowed to march for as long and wherever they like.

...as long as someone can supply (the rest of us with) 8374397534759347597 eggs,4584095843085043850 tonnes of flower and a REALLY big ****-off gutty to send over the ingredients with :thumbsup:

Bunch of erses the lot of them. Nae marches for anything. Lets ban ALL marches. Undemocratic? Unhelpful? Maybe. Times of osterity what will we have:

1) Police orange (or any other) marches?
2) Mair money for hospitals, schools, etc?

...hard one that. Lets waste cash on pointless fricking marches that piss everyone off and lets pay lots of polis to make them behave :rolleyes:Think of the money they generate for the economy, buckfast sellers, transport, buckfast sellers, flute makers and don't forget buckfast sellers all making a few quid.
I'd let any group march as long as they pay for stewards and policing costs up front.

[RyeSloan]

Think of the money they generate for the economy, buckfast sellers, transport, buckfast sellers, flute makers and don't forget buckfast sellers all making a few quid.
I'd let any group march as long as they pay for stewards and policing costs up front.


Cool so as long as you have deep pockets you can march and promote your agenda..but if you happen to be poor and downtrodden then yer stuffed....:confused:

[Dashing Bob S]

I've changed my view on this. I used to have the same perspective as FR, namely, let these bams do what they want, provided there is no public order issue. Freedom, as a principle, should also extend to the brain-damaged, ugly, and badly-dressed, as aesthetically distressing it is for the rest of us to inadvertently have to witness this.

However, we do have this long-standing embarrassing problem with sectarianism, which has distorted social life in this country for years, making our national game a laughing stock, spreading it's evil tentacles into all aspects of Scottish society and promoting violence and hatred. And I've come to believe that this will never simply just fade away of it's own accord as long as events like this (and the odd republican counterpart) are deemed acceptable.

Yes, it's tempting to say through enlightenment, education etc, these marches will become less attractive and simply fade away.

However, the truth is, we will probably long have an inexhaustible supply of under-educated, brutalised and bored young men, attracted to the drama of sectarianism in order to give their sad lives some meaning and status, and they will have no qualms about stepping forward to join in marches like this.

Whatever the guff spouted about religion, tradition, history and a celebration of culture, these unsightly occasions are, in reality, nothing more than an on-going platform for bigots to prance around, indulging in their psuedo-militaristic fantasies, before going home, slipping on their Hun or Jambo replica tops, and staring open mouthed and slack-jawed at the television screen with a can of Tennent's lager in their grubby hands till hey pass out, and/or piss themselves.

I don't know if, how, and to what extent, we can eradicate our society of sectarianism, but it isn't going to happen unless we ban hate marches like this.

There's a big difference between protestants being unable to fill high posts in the Vatican, and morons parading around the streets of Scotland, with a pathetic and contemptible message of 'protestant' supremacy over Catholics, or more accurately, people of Irish origin.

[Killiehibbie]

Cool so as long as you have deep pockets you can march and promote your agenda..but if you happen to be poor and downtrodden then yer stuffed....:confused:I think we'd find they'd disappear if forced to pay, maybe get them saving up for the odd one.
The poor and downtrodden have been stuffed for 100's of years but if they ever do what they have to do it will not be done by waving a few banners.

[Big Frank]

I've changed my view on this. I used to have the same perspective as FR, namely, let these bams do what they want, provided there is no public order issue. Freedom, as a principle, should also extend to the brain-damaged, ugly, and badly-dressed, as aesthetically distressing it is for the rest of us to inadvertently have to witness this.

However, we do have this long-standing embarrassing problem with sectarianism, which has distorted social life in this country for years, making our national game a laughing stock, spreading it's evil tentacles into all aspects of Scottish society and promoting violence and hatred. And I've come to believe that this will never simply just fade away of it's own accord as long as events like this (and the odd republican counterpart) are deemed acceptable.

Yes, it's tempting to say through enlightenment, education etc, these marches will become less attractive and simply fade away.

However, the truth is, we will probably long have an inexhaustible supply of under-educated, brutalised and bored young men, attracted to the drama of sectarianism in order to give their sad lives some meaning and status, and they will have no qualms about stepping forward to join in marches like this.

Whatever the guff spouted about religion, tradition, history and a celebration of culture, these unsightly occasions are, in reality, nothing more than an on-going platform for bigots to prance around, indulging in their psuedo-militaristic fantasies, before going home, slipping on their Hun or Jambo replica tops, and staring open mouthed and slack-jawed at the television screen with a can of Tennent's lager in their grubby hands till hey pass out, and/or piss themselves.

I don't know if, how, and to what extent, we can eradicate our society of sectarianism, but it isn't going to happen unless we ban hate marches like this.

There's a big difference between protestants being unable to fill high posts in the Vatican, and morons parading around the streets of Scotland, with a pathetic and contemptible message of 'protestant' supremacy over Catholics, or more accurately, people of Irish origin.


:top marks
Outstanding DBS:agree:

[1two]

Is a republican walk the same ilk as an orange walk?
If by a republic march you mean a pro-catholic anti-Protestant then yes i agree but surely a republican march/demo is political, not religious and therefore not sectarian?

I'm all for a republican country whether that's as an independent Scotland or an republican britian.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

The JCS no longer march. There are no Irish Republican marches in the capital. They stopped the marching as they wanted to help the peace process (their statement, not mine) The only group who still choose to march (and cost the edinburgh tax payer) are the orange ones. Again, silly little insecure men with little in their lives but to vent bile towards another religion. All this done wearing clown-type bowler hats and girly sashes! Sad sad people.

[ArabHibee]

The JCS no longer march. There are no Irish Republican marches in the capital. They stopped the marching as they wanted to help the peace process (their statement, not mine) The only group who still choose to march (and cost the edinburgh tax payer) are the orange ones. Again, silly little insecure men with little in their lives but to vent bile towards another religion. All this done wearing clown-type bowler hats and girly sashes! Sad sad people.
And a silly insecure post from someone, by the sounds of it, knows hee haw about the Orange Order.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Dont come on a hibs site and defend that lot. Shower of .... I know and have read enough about them to realise they are rotten to the core. Think that about sums them up.

[ArabHibee]

Dont come on a hibs site and defend that lot. Shower of .... I know and have read enough about them to realise they are rotten to the core. Think that about sums them up.

:faf: Care to explain the bit in bold?

[Hibernia Na Eir]

And a silly insecure post from someone, by the sounds of it, knows hee haw about the Orange Order.

Please, tell all Hibernian fans about your knowledge. You wont find many sympathisers however.

Come on. You do sound rather loyal.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

:faf: Care to explain the bit in bold?

Erm, just a sneaky suspicion that they are not liked by Hibbies? I may be wrong, but please do correct me if so :faf:

Actually AH, ive got a better idea! Why don't you conduct a good old .net poll! Lets see where the 'Order' sits with Hibernian supporters. Its mindless but, then again, so is any support of that lot (remembering the thread is titled "Orange walks").

[ArabHibee]

Please, tell all Hibernian fans about your knowledge. You wont find many sympathisers however.

Come on. You do sound rather loyal.
:yawn: You sound rather republican so we'll just leave it at that shall we?

[marinello59]

Please, tell all Hibernian fans about your knowledge. You wont find many sympathisers however.

Come on. You do sound rather loyal.


:yawn: You sound rather republican so we'll just leave it at that shall we?

This exchange works much better if you read it out loud. Use a Gerry Adams voice for Hibernia Na Eir and Ian Paisley for the Arab. :greengrin

[heretoday]

I don't approve of the Orange Order but I have to say that some of their tunes are good!

Sorry!

[--------]

And a silly insecure post from someone, by the sounds of it, knows hee haw about the Orange Order.

My thought, too. :agree:

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Not gonna bother biting. Your clearly better off follow following other teams though. you must enjoy payin your taxes towards needless policing and the misery and suffering the order brings. Unless of course your head is buried?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This thread could come to a head on Tuesday possibly! ;-)

[Sir David Gray]

I've never been on a march, a demonstration or anything like that in my life. It's just not my cup of tea.

However, as long as people aren't making threats to kill or inciting violence, I believe that everyone has the right to publicly declare their beliefs and opinions in any way that they want.

In a democracy, you sometimes have to put up with things that you don't like or you don't believe in yourself. There's many marches and demonstrations that go on which I don't approve of but people are still allowed to display those opinions and feelings and I just have to get on with it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've changed my view on this. I used to have the same perspective as FR, namely, let these bams do what they want, provided there is no public order issue. Freedom, as a principle, should also extend to the brain-damaged, ugly, and badly-dressed, as aesthetically distressing it is for the rest of us to inadvertently have to witness this.

However, we do have this long-standing embarrassing problem with sectarianism, which has distorted social life in this country for years, making our national game a laughing stock, spreading it's evil tentacles into all aspects of Scottish society and promoting violence and hatred. And I've come to believe that this will never simply just fade away of it's own accord as long as events like this (and the odd republican counterpart) are deemed acceptable.

Yes, it's tempting to say through enlightenment, education etc, these marches will become less attractive and simply fade away.

However, the truth is, we will probably long have an inexhaustible supply of under-educated, brutalised and bored young men, attracted to the drama of sectarianism in order to give their sad lives some meaning and status, and they will have no qualms about stepping forward to join in marches like this.

Whatever the guff spouted about religion, tradition, history and a celebration of culture, these unsightly occasions are, in reality, nothing more than an on-going platform for bigots to prance around, indulging in their psuedo-militaristic fantasies, before going home, slipping on their Hun or Jambo replica tops, and staring open mouthed and slack-jawed at the television screen with a can of Tennent's lager in their grubby hands till hey pass out, and/or piss themselves.

I don't know if, how, and to what extent, we can eradicate our society of sectarianism, but it isn't going to happen unless we ban hate marches like this.

There's a big difference between protestants being unable to fill high posts in the Vatican, and morons parading around the streets of Scotland, with a pathetic and contemptible message of 'protestant' supremacy over Catholics, or more accurately, people of Irish origin.

I've had to have a long think about this, hence the delay in a reply. In my heart, I tend to agree with you Bob, but my head says otherwise.

I think that banning the marches would only make them more attractive to the misfits that follow that cause. If anything it would appeal to their sense of doing what they do, whatever other people think.

The only justification I could find for a ban would be on the grounds that it causes fear and hurt to a section of the population. However, I think that section of the population could do a lot more by just ignoring the idiots, or even laughing at them.

Rather than banning the marches, we should surely line the streets and laugh at their misplaced grandiosity?

[Hibernia Na Eir]

I've had to have a long think about this, hence the delay in a reply. In my heart, I tend to agree with you Bob, but my head says otherwise.

I think that banning the marches would only make them more attractive to the misfits that follow that cause. If anything it would appeal to their sense of doing what they do, whatever other people think.

The only justification I could find for a ban would be on the grounds that it causes fear and hurt to a section of the population. However, I think that section of the population could do a lot more by just ignoring the idiots, or even laughing at them.

Rather than banning the marches, we should surely line the streets and laugh at their misplaced grandiosity?

we could and should do this on tuesday, i'd grudge the bus fare however!

[Hibernia Na Eir]

As a side, just thinking of the irony of the sub-forum this thread is posted, 'The Holy Ground'. Not so holy though!

[Dinkydoo]

As a side, just thinking of the irony of the sub-forum this thread is posted, 'The Holy Ground'. Not so holy though!


What are you on about? :confused:

[LiverpoolHibs]

And a silly insecure post from someone, by the sounds of it, knows hee haw about the Orange Order.


My thought, too. :agree:

What are we missing?

[Hibernia Na Eir]

What are you on about? :confused:

a quick read of the name should tell you.

[Dinkydoo]

a quick read of the name should tell you.

The 'Holy Ground' is for discussing those non Hibs/Football things such as (but not explicitly) Politics, current affairs and Religion.

IIRC the only 'active' thread at the moment which is really about religion is the end of the CoS one; why haven't you pointed out the "irony" on the hundreds of other threads?

Perhaps your just :fishin: for a comment to brand "loyalist" :rolleyes:

That is how your coming across imo.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

The 'Holy Ground' is for discussing those non Hibs/Football things such as (but not explicitly) Politics, current affairs and Religion.

IIRC the only 'active' thread at the moment which is really about religion is the end of the CoS one; why haven't you pointed out the "irony" on the hundreds of other threads?

Perhaps your just :fishin: for a comment to brand "loyalist" :rolleyes:

That is how your coming across imo.

the holy ground, read some, absorb and then come back.

[Dinkydoo]

the holy ground, read some, absorb and then come back.

Let me get this straight, are you or are you not saying that it is ironic that this thread is posted in the holy ground, and if so please explain.

I seem to be spectacularly missing your point.

Edit: I don't know why I even dignified your post with a response..........

I'm done.

[--------]

What are we missing?


I don't know what ArabHibee was meaning, but the reason I chipped in was because while there are lots of things I'm really uncomfortable with regarding the Orange Order, living where I do I know quite a few Orangemen (and their families) and neither are they all 5' 6" with bad haircuts nor are they pathetic inadequates with bad self-images. Most of the guys I know are pretty decent people, actually. The real question, I suspect, is why are these decent guys Orangemen?

There's a serious discussion to be had here regarding why we have this problem of sectarianism in Scotland. I have no answer, LH, but I do know that bad-mouthing either side isn't really the most helpful place to start from.

I also know that in my area, sectarianism's very much a two-headed monster. I could tell stories of unpleasant encounters with a number of individuals of the Catholic persuasion (including a very prominent member of their clergy), but that's not the point. The point IMHO is how in a modern multicultural state we learn to live together in reasonable harmony, whether we're one kind of Christian or another kind of Christian, or a Muslim or a Sikh or a Hindu or a Bhuddist ar an agnostic or a humanist or a secularist or an atheist or none of the aforesaid at all. Live in harmony and mutual respect, I should have said.

The fascination for a section within our society of the mythology of the Irish struggle for independence and wee bits of possibly half-understood Irish Gaelic is as much part of the problem of sectarianism as is the existence of the Orange Order.

Neither is really relevant to Scotland as an emerging nation in the 21st century.

[The Mook]

I don't approve of the Orange Order but I have to say that some of their tunes are good!

Sorry!

From a distance these walks do sound quite impressive but its when these Goons actually come into view..... any respect you might have for them gets washed away in a shower of ill-fitting, polyester-suit, pluke filled mankyness.

Ive never witnessed a Republican march so cant comment on whether they attract similar low-life. Swap Hun shirt wearing dregs for 'Tic wearing dregs? :confused:

[Pretty Boy]

I don't approve of the Orange Order but I have to say that some of their tunes are good!

Sorry!

Probably the ones that are rehashed versions of Republican songs.:wink:

For me if someone gets their kicks out of dressing up like a muppet and singing songs about battles that took place hundreds of years ago thats up to them. Fortunately we do live in a society where people have the right to march, demonstrate etc as they see fit. I have littel time for the Orange Order and i shudder when i think of what tourists must think when they see these marches in town, however they are allowed to march and so should be left in peace to do so until succh time as that changes.

A couple of points though. I do think that the Police should be far quicker to act against the idiots in Hearts and Rangers tops who tend to tag along on these marches without being part of it, they tend to be the ones to cause the bother through drink fuelled idiocy. Secondly i do find it funny that so many orangemen and Protestants in general turned into Mr Concerned Taxpayer Esq when the Pope visitied recently because it was a 'waste of taxpayers money' but they have nothing to say when we spend circa £1M policing Orange walks every single year, they will cost the SCottish taxpayer far more long term than Papal visits will.

If we are to move on as a country and leave our sectarian shame behind maye a bit of self policing and scaling down of marches such as this wouldn't go amiss. The James Connolly society stopped it's annual march and rally 4 years ago now because it had started to attract more and more idiots in football tops and because they felt that scrapping it would 'help conciliation'. Maybe the Orange Order could consider following suit, i'm not holding my breath though.

[Betty Boop]

From a distance these walks do sound quite impressive but its when these Goons actually come into view..... any respect you might have for them gets washed away in a shower of ill-fitting, polyester-suit, pluke filled mankyness.

Ive never witnessed a Republican march so cant comment on whether they attract similar low-life. Swap Hun shirt wearing dregs for 'Tic wearing dregs? :confused:

A fair few Hibs tops on display, when the James Connolly marches were on the go.

[Pete]

A fair few Hibs tops on display, when the James Connolly marches were on the go.

The recent republican marches have had their fair share of numpties in celtic tops...and people who simply feel they have to turn up along the roadside and protest wearing rangers tops and flying the red hand or union flag.

They are mainly about remembering the sacrifices and the lives of the ten hunger strikers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book and even though their raison d'etre is in the past it is nothing compared to what the orange order sing about. How many of those in sashes were around in 1690?

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Its a fair point PD

[lapsedhibee]

these unsightly occasions are, in reality, nothing more than an on-going platform for bigots to prance around, indulging in their psuedo-militaristic fantasies, before going home, slipping on their Hun or Jambo replica tops, and staring open mouthed and slack-jawed at the television screen with a can of Tennent's lager in their grubby hands till hey pass out, and/or piss themselves

:thereshouldbeahibsnetawardforthebestphrasedsingle sentenceoftheyearsmiley:

[RyeSloan]

I don't know what ArabHibee was meaning, but the reason I chipped in was because while there are lots of things I'm really uncomfortable with regarding the Orange Order, living where I do I know quite a few Orangemen (and their families) and neither are they all 5' 6" with bad haircuts nor are they pathetic inadequates with bad self-images. Most of the guys I know are pretty decent people, actually. The real question, I suspect, is why are these decent guys Orangemen?

There's a serious discussion to be had here regarding why we have this problem of sectarianism in Scotland. I have no answer, LH, but I do know that bad-mouthing either side isn't really the most helpful place to start from.

I also know that in my area, sectarianism's very much a two-headed monster. I could tell stories of unpleasant encounters with a number of individuals of the Catholic persuasion (including a very prominent member of their clergy), but that's not the point. The point IMHO is how in a modern multicultural state we learn to live together in reasonable harmony, whether we're one kind of Christian or another kind of Christian, or a Muslim or a Sikh or a Hindu or a Bhuddist ar an agnostic or a humanist or a secularist or an atheist or none of the aforesaid at all. Live in harmony and mutual respect, I should have said.

The fascination for a section within our society of the mythology of the Irish struggle for independence and wee bits of possibly half-understood Irish Gaelic is as much part of the problem of sectarianism as is the existence of the Orange Order.

Neither is really relevant to Scotland as an emerging nation in the 21st century.

Quite a common occurance on here :greengrin

I think you make a good point. Simply calling all of the marchers 'goons' and the like does little good but you do have to ask why the 'pretty decent' people want to associate themsleves with the Orange Order and then to take part on marches that seem to be a symbol of a sectarian past? At the same time though you do have to admit they look a bit silly on their marches and even sillier when you see what they are marching about.

I also agree that Sectarianism is a two headed monster and that each 'side' can be as bad as each other but I sense that it's the Orange side that seems to feel it is under threat the most...a lot of the recent troubles in Belfast are in the protestand areas and the Orange Walk here is still completed when the JC walk was stopped 4 years ago...totally unscientific approach I know but when it comes down to reconciliation and moving on I get a sense that it is the protestant side that is finding it hardest. No idea if this is right or even if such a diverse group could even act as one in a general sense but there you go!

[Lmc2105]

I've never been on a march, a demonstration or anything like that in my life. It's just not my cup of tea.

However, as long as people aren't making threats to kill or inciting violence, I believe that everyone has the right to publicly declare their beliefs and opinions in any way that they want.

In a democracy, you sometimes have to put up with things that you don't like or you don't believe in yourself. There's many marches and demonstrations that go on which I don't approve of but people are still allowed to display those opinions and feelings and I just have to get on with it.



:top marks Spot on mate


A will admit i am a protestant and i agree with FalkirkHibee okay i have never been on the march. I do listen to the songs cause i have been brung up with them! but i do not commend anything that the Orange Order do. As long as they march Peacefully i think they should continue in the Tradition in what they do. for i believe it's right that they do so.

My eyes were opened when i went over to Belfast the other week there and the things that i saw and the images will live with me for quite a long time.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Wake me up in 24 hours and take my ear plugs out!

[--------]

Quite a common occurance on here :greengrin

I think you make a good point. Simply calling all of the marchers 'goons' and the like does little good but you do have to ask why the 'pretty decent' people want to associate themsleves with the Orange Order and then to take part on marches that seem to be a symbol of a sectarian past? At the same time though you do have to admit they look a bit silly on their marches and even sillier when you see what they are marching about.

I also agree that Sectarianism is a two headed monster and that each 'side' can be as bad as each other but I sense that it's the Orange side that seems to feel it is under threat the most...a lot of the recent troubles in Belfast are in the protestand areas and the Orange Walk here is still completed when the JC walk was stopped 4 years ago...totally unscientific approach I know but when it comes down to reconciliation and moving on I get a sense that it is the protestant side that is finding it hardest. No idea if this is right or even if such a diverse group could even act as one in a general sense but there you go!


I can't comment on the situation in Northern Ireland right now except to suggest that while at one level some progress appears to have been made towards a degree of reconciliation, there are still unreconstructed hard-liners on both sides feeding off one another in a continuing vicious circle of provocation and violence which tends to particularly manifest itself around this time each year; and as these groups exist, the hope for genuine peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland will continue to be under threat.

There are plenty on the Republican side who won't stop bombing or shooting until the Six Counties are part of the Republic, after all, and they're just as intransigent as any Orangeman. The present situation they see as no more than a step on the way to a united Ireland, and they haven't moved from that position one inch. Maybe that's why there's a degree of unease among the Unionists? The sense that despite what the UK government says or what's done in Stormont, it's all going to start all over again?

I agree Republicans don't look as odd, though. Balaclavas ain't funny - they're scary. :wink:

[ArabHibee]

Wake me up in 24 hours and take my ear plugs out!
You are bringing the sum total of zero to this discussion. It is very clear to see that you have Republican tendencies (to which you are entitled to) but your posts are doing nothing but making you look silly.

[Dinkydoo]

You are bringing the sum total of zero to this discussion. It is very clear to see that you have Republican tendencies (to which you are entitled to) but your posts are doing nothing but making you look silly.

I'd let him get on with it.

I tried to ask him to explain a fairly illogical statement and all I got was patronising remarks in return.

He's welcome to make himself look silly IMO. :wink:

[Hibernia Na Eir]

You are bringing the sum total of zero to this discussion. It is very clear to see that you have Republican tendencies (to which you are entitled to) but your posts are doing nothing but making you look silly.

easy tiger! Ok then, wake me up when today is over and friends of the o order, like you, drift back to .net obscurity. Care to defend those o order folk blamed for petrol bombing defenceless old folks sheltered housing in north of ireland last night. The so called 'eleventh night' celebrations. Is that your interpretation of a celebration? Utterly shameless act of sectarianism and not for the first time in last 2 weeks. Dont deny it.

[1two]

Nobody has answered my earlier question. I'm not at all knowledgable on the subject but would I be wrong to suggest that a republican march is a political march or more so an anti-monarchy march, compared to an anti-catholic pro-Protestant march which the orange order don't actually deny as far as I can see?
Same goes for the JC marches which were (or do) celebrating/remembering the anti-British struggle in Ireland rather than an anti-Protestant march, but unfortunately attracts numpties who see it as a counter-march to the orange ones?
I'm not for or against the JC marches but if I'm right about the republican march then why are these looked on as the alternative to orange walks when they're clearly not?

I'd be fully behind a scottish or even British republic FTQ organisation/demo/rally/march as long as it's not associated with any religion.

Does that make me as bad as the orange order? Does that make me a small minded knuckle dragger?

[Lucius Apuleius]

easy tiger! Ok then, wake me up when today is over and friends of the o order, like you, drift back to .net obscurity. Care to defend those o order folk blamed for petrol bombing defenceless old folks sheltered housing in north of ireland last night. The so called 'eleventh night' celebrations. Is that your interpretation of a celebration? Utterly shameless act of sectarianism and not for the first time in last 2 weeks. Dont deny it.

Methinks you are digging yourself deeper and deeper. If I have to explain why, suggest you read her posts again.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Methinks you are digging yourself deeper and deeper. If I have to explain why, suggest you read her posts again.

i dont think so.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Police hospitalised, 100's injured and a SCOTTISH football game abandoned all in the last 24 hours and all because.........

the 12th July and all the rat life who follow follow :agree:

[MSK]

i dont think so.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Police hospitalised, 100's injured and a SCOTTISH football game abandoned all in the last 24 hours and all because.........

the 12th July and all the rat life who follow follow :agree:What was the SCOTTISH football game that was abandoned ?

[lapsedhibee]

What was the SCOTTISH football game that was abandoned ?Stirling ALBION v The Huns.

[MSK]

Stirling ALBION v The Huns.Was that game actually abandoned ..?

[MSK]

Stirling ALBION v The Huns.Apparently not ..grahamruthven Graham Ruthven
Rangers fans being held back by police after full time. yfrog.com/kehgdlj
14 hours ago

grahamruthven Graham Ruthven
FT Stirling Albion 0-1 Rangers.
14 hours ago

After full time would suggest to me that the game was played to the full & not abandoned..

Perhaps there was another game ..

[lapsedhibee]

Apparently not ..grahamruthven Graham Ruthven
Rangers fans being held back by police after full time. yfrog.com/kehgdlj
14 hours ago

grahamruthven Graham Ruthven
FT Stirling Albion 0-1 Rangers.
14 hours ago

After full time would suggest to me that the game was played to the full & not abandoned..

Perhaps there was another game ..
No idea but think it likely that the ALBION game was the one originally alluded to. A hibs.net poster had a text/tweet/whatever saying that police had advised officials to stop the game. If that's not the same as actually stopping the game, then it's almost as if you're saying that posts on hibs.net should be read carefully, and speculation and rumour should be distinguished from FACT, and only what's actually in the post should be repeated, etc etc etc. Next you'll be saying Hugh Hefner's still alive!

[MSK]

No idea but think it likely that the ALBION game was the one originally alluded to. A hibs.net poster had a text/tweet/whatever saying that police had advised officials to stop the game. If that's not the same as actually stopping the game, then it's almost as if you're saying that posts on hibs.net should be read carefully, and speculation and rumour should be distinguished from FACT, and only what's actually in the post should be repeated, etc etc etc. Next you'll be saying Hugh Hefner's still alive!Aw behave yersel eh !!...the op said "wake up & smell the coffee" then went on about a SCOTTISH game being abandoned...telling folk to wake up & smell the coffee then post about something that never actually happened ..aye guid yin ..:faf:

[Lucius Apuleius]

i dont think so.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Police hospitalised, 100's injured and a SCOTTISH football game abandoned all in the last 24 hours and all because.........

the 12th July and all the rat life who follow follow :agree:

Me wake up and smell the coffee? Guid yin son. What does the rst of your post have to do with what I was saying about Arab? In no way whatsoever does she back the Orange Order that I can see, apart from their right to march. We live in a democracy son. Whether we like something or not does not mean people do not have a legal right to demonstrate. And as for your comments regarding bad behaviour by loyalists, your user name definitely suggests republican tendencies (not a problem with republicans with a small r). Do you agree with the tatctics used by Republicans to try and get a united Ireland?

[Phil D. Rolls]

easy tiger! Ok then, wake me up when today is over and friends of the o order, like you, drift back to .net obscurity. Care to defend those o order folk blamed for petrol bombing defenceless old folks sheltered housing in north of ireland last night. The so called 'eleventh night' celebrations. Is that your interpretation of a celebration? Utterly shameless act of sectarianism and not for the first time in last 2 weeks. Dont deny it.

Ever thought of a career in tabloid journalism?

[--------]

i dont think so.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Police hospitalised, 100's injured and a SCOTTISH football game abandoned all in the last 24 hours and all because.........

the 12th July and all the rat life who follow follow :agree:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-14143336

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14138356

Think you're making that all up, chum...

Pity the NotW's been scrapped - you'd have fitted in there VERY well.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-14143336

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14138356

Think you're making that all up, chum...

Pity the NotW's been scrapped - you'd have fitted in there VERY well.

ok. I give up. The hibee hun sympathizers win (again).

[ArabHibee]

ok. I give up. The hibee hun sympathizers win (again).

:faf:
Time for you to pop along and post on Kerrydale Street. You'll find more like minded folk there for you to have your wee Republican love-in with.

[1two]

:faf:
Time for you to pop along and post on Kerrydale Street. You'll find more like minded folk there for you to have your wee Republican love-in with.

See that's my point, am if I'm anti-monarch minded, does that not make me a republican? I mean from a Scottish point of view?

[Removed]

See that's my point, am if I'm anti-monarch minded, does that not make me a republican? I mean from a Scottish point of view?

They want unity, we want separation. And we don't have a Scottish Republican Army thank goodness.

[Lucius Apuleius]

See that's my point, am if I'm anti-monarch minded, does that not make me a republican? I mean from a Scottish point of view?

:agree: Republicanism has a bad name due to the antics of certain neighbouring Republicans. I have no problem being called a republican, I am one. Don't particularly hate the queen or royal family, would just like Scotland to be a free republic.

[Phil D. Rolls]

ok. I give up. The hibee hun sympathizers win (again).

You've taken that too far.

I'm open minded on the subject, but the way you resort to personal attacks makes it harder for me to take anything you say on this subject seriously.

[--------]

ok. I give up. The hibee hun sympathizers win (again).


I am NOT a "Hun sympathiser" - not in the sense that you seem to infer, at least.

But lies and misrepresentations and the sort of distorted generalisations you seem to have mistaken for intelligent discussion get us nowhere.

From your posts and your username I can safely assume you have strong Irish Republican sympathies. With respect (as much as I can muster right now for you) that makes you as much a part of the problem of sectarianism in Scotland as any Orangeman in the Caldera.

A plague on BOTH your houses.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

I am NOT a "Hun sympathiser" - not in the sense that you seem to infer, at least.

But lies and misrepresentations and the sort of distorted generalisations you seem to have mistaken for intelligent discussion get us nowhere.

From your posts and your username I can safely assume you have strong Irish Republican sympathies. With respect (as much as I can muster right now for you) that makes you as much a part of the problem of sectarianism in Scotland as any Orangeman in the Caldera.

A plague on BOTH your houses.

FACTS happened over the past few nights. And Orangemen were part of those FACTS. Innocents could have died. They werent lies, as you have tarnished me with.

And on that note, i'll leave you all in peace to continue this god-awful subject amongst you. Hands-across-the-water and all that.....

See ya :bye:

[lapsedhibee]

I opened this thread thinking it would be a genuinely interesting account of a piece of fruit sprouting legs and subsequently propelling itself in a pedal fashion. How disappointed I was. I haven't felt so let down since I saw "Fish Talks In Grimsby". ****in tabloid headlines! :panic:

[Twa Cairpets]

FACTS happened over the past few nights. And Orangemen were part of those FACTS. Innocents could have died. They werent lies, as you have tarnished me with.

And on that note, i'll leave you all in peace to continue this god-awful subject amongst you. Hands-across-the-water and all that.....

See ya :bye:

"Innocents" didnt die though, did they? Orangemen are pretty repugnant, so are their counterparts on your side of the fence. The members of the OL I've met have, to a man, been odious. I can only recall meeting one Republican who was into parades, and he was a tw@t of the first water too.

Petty people tied up in petty subjects based on intolerance, ignorance, and blind stupidity.

I think you've prety much managed to tarnish yourself with the accusations you've thrown about to all and sundry about "hun-sympathy". But if it's easier for you just to hurl abuse rather than enter into anything approaching a reasonable discussion, then knock yourself out chum.


Orange Walks
I opened this thread thinking it would be a genuinely interesting account of a piece of fruit sprouting legs and subsequently propelling itself in a pedal fashion. How disappointed I was. I haven't felt so let down since I saw "Fish Talks In Grimsby". ****in tabloid headlines!

I was in Grimsby yesterday as it happens. Really horrible place, and a talking fish amongst the locals would not appear out of place given their general misshapen-ness. (Probably higher IQ than your average parade participants as well)

[Hibernian Verse]

FACTS happened over the past few nights. And Orangemen were part of those FACTS. Innocents could have died. They werent lies, as you have tarnished me with.

And on that note, i'll leave you all in peace to continue this god-awful subject amongst you. Hands-across-the-water and all that.....

See ya :bye:

I'll just get this out of the way now...spent the last fifteen minutes reading your crap. People thinking you're an arse has nothing to do with who they sympathise with. I think you'll find people like Arab here don't actually give a flying **** about anything that goes on between either side because they're not ignorant, childish morons.

It also amazes me that you told people not to post supporting their beliefs because this is a 'hibs board'. You need to start living in the present. I hope to god you're still in education.

[Pete]

:faf:
Time for you to pop along and post on Kerrydale Street. You'll find more like minded folk there for you to have your wee Republican love-in with.

I'm sorry but who are you to tell people what board they should be posting on?

He's a hibee and and believes in Irish republicanism...therefore he isn't welcome and should post on another teams board due to the amount of people who have similar beliefs? Maybe those with strong pro-palestinian beliefs should also follow suit and post on Celtic boards.

Having beliefs on this particular subject is neither "childish" or "moronic" as some describe because it is a subject that, wether we like it or not, has shaped the country we live in. Some take it too far and live in the distant past but it is still part of our lives due to the close proximity of the land in question and the continuing bigotry towards a certain section of our community.

Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

What box will you put me in after reading that? Shall I go away and post on a Celtic board?

[Dinkydoo]

I'm sorry but who are you to tell people what board they should be posting on?

He's a hibee and and believes in Irish republicanism...therefore he isn't welcome and should post on another teams board due to the amount of people who have similar beliefs? Maybe those with strong pro-palestinian beliefs should also follow suit and post on Celtic boards.

Having beliefs on this particular subject is neither "childish" or "moronic" as some describe because it is a subject that, wether we like it or not, has shaped the country we live in. Some take it too far and live in the distant past but it is still part of our lives due to the close proximity of the land in question and the continuing bigotry towards a certain section of our community.

Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

What box will you put me in after reading that? Shall I go away and post on a Celtic board?

You've completely missed the point of Arab's post. She wasn't saying "you have irish republican beliefs, therefore you should be away posting on website x,y or z.".

The whole point of her last few posts was (if I've picked her up correctly) that, you are perfectly entitled to have your own beliefs but branding anyone who doesn't entirely agree with you a "hun sympathiser" is a demonstration of the paranoid and generally ignorant behaviour that some Celtic fans display, therefore he'd be better posting over in kerrydale street.

To turn your question on it's head, what right does he have to suggest that others shouldn't dare come on a Hibs website and have different beliefs from himself.

Whether you like it or not, bigotry in this country is a two sided coin.

[Twa Cairpets]

I'm sorry but who are you to tell people what board they should be posting on?

He's a hibee and and believes in Irish republicanism...therefore he isn't welcome and should post on another teams board due to the amount of people who have similar beliefs? Maybe those with strong pro-palestinian beliefs should also follow suit and post on Celtic boards.

Having beliefs on this particular subject is neither "childish" or "moronic" as some describe because it is a subject that, wether we like it or not, has shaped the country we live in. Some take it too far and live in the distant past but it is still part of our lives due to the close proximity of the land in question and the continuing bigotry towards a certain section of our community.

Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

What box will you put me in after reading that? Shall I go away and post on a Celtic board?

Firstly, you're right, anyone should be ok to post whatever they want on the assumption that when their view is queried they don't resort to insult and pettiness.

As for the bit in bold, you've no problem with people bombing and shooting people? Seriously? Change "IRA" for "Al Qaeda" and do you think your sentence still holds true?

Personally, I think it is this type of revisionist viewpoint that helps perpetuate the belief that Orange marches and their Republican counterparts have some type of validity in a modern society.

[--------]

FACTS happened over the past few nights. And Orangemen were part of those FACTS. Innocents could have died. They werent lies, as you have tarnished me with.

And on that note, i'll leave you all in peace to continue this god-awful subject amongst you. Hands-across-the-water and all that.....

See ya :bye:


The way you expressed yourself, they were LIES.

And just as Orangemen were involved, so were unreconstructed Irish Republicans seeking to break the present settlement and start the troubles off all over again.

The people YOU appear to support.

[--------]

I was in Grimsby yesterday as it happens. Really horrible place, and a talking fish amongst the locals would not appear out of place given their general misshapen-ness. (Probably higher IQ than your average parade participants as well.)




I remember the case of the Two-Headed Fish landed in Thurso a few year back...

Don't know whether it could talk or not, though. :rolleyes:

[Dunbar Hibee]

I'm sorry but who are you to tell people what board they should be posting on?

He's a hibee and and believes in Irish republicanism...therefore he isn't welcome and should post on another teams board due to the amount of people who have similar beliefs? Maybe those with strong pro-palestinian beliefs should also follow suit and post on Celtic boards.

Having beliefs on this particular subject is neither "childish" or "moronic" as some describe because it is a subject that, wether we like it or not, has shaped the country we live in. Some take it too far and live in the distant past but it is still part of our lives due to the close proximity of the land in question and the continuing bigotry towards a certain section of our community.

Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

What box will you put me in after reading that? Shall I go away and post on a Celtic board?

:top marks Great post.:agree:

[Beefster]

You also have to accept that not many Protestants ever make it to the position of Pope.

I think that's pretty similar to a Catholic not being allowed to become the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

It's not comparable to sectarian sentiment in the Orange Order (or the monarchy for that matter).


easy tiger! Ok then, wake me up when today is over and friends of the o order, like you, drift back to .net obscurity. Care to defend those o order folk blamed for petrol bombing defenceless old folks sheltered housing in north of ireland last night. The so called 'eleventh night' celebrations. Is that your interpretation of a celebration? Utterly shameless act of sectarianism and not for the first time in last 2 weeks. Dont deny it.

I'm a Catholic but you've made a bit of a plum of yourself in this thread IMO. Hysterically ranting and raving about the Orange Order/Protestants while ignoring the tragedies perpetuated by Catholics/Republicans is just plain stoopid.

[ArabHibee]

I'm sorry but who are you to tell people what board they should be posting on?

He's a hibee and and believes in Irish republicanism...therefore he isn't welcome and should post on another teams board due to the amount of people who have similar beliefs? Maybe those with strong pro-palestinian beliefs should also follow suit and post on Celtic boards.

Having beliefs on this particular subject is neither "childish" or "moronic" as some describe because it is a subject that, wether we like it or not, has shaped the country we live in. Some take it too far and live in the distant past but it is still part of our lives due to the close proximity of the land in question and the continuing bigotry towards a certain section of our community.

Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

What box will you put me in after reading that? Shall I go away and post on a Celtic board?

I thought I should come on and respond to you seeing as you are having a pop.
Dinkydoo has already said, what needs to be said though - you are spectacularly missing the point of why I posted what I did.
Hibernia Na Eir was basically telling myself (and quite a few other folk) that we shouldn't be posting on a Hibs website if we didn't hate the Orange Order and all that they stood for. Then he called us Hun sympathisers. Hope that clears things up for you.
Re the rest of your post. Agreeing with terrorism is a sad state of affairs but you probably don't see it as that.

[1two]

I thought I should come on and respond to you seeing as you are having a pop.
Dinkydoo has already said, what needs to be said though - you are spectacularly missing the point of why I posted what I did.
Hibernia Na Eir was basically telling myself (and quite a few other folk) that we shouldn't be posting on a Hibs website if we didn't hate the Orange Order and all that they stood for. Then he called us Hun sympathisers. Hope that clears things up for you.
Re the rest of your post. Agreeing with terrorism is a sad state of affairs but you probably don't see it as that.

One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

The orange order is neither, just a bunch of catholic haters akin to the KKK but for some reason are tolerated by our society.

[Ed De Gramo]

TBH, I don't understand the whole situation but hun sympathisers?

REALLY? REALLY! REALLY? :rolleyes:

[Betty Boop]

One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

The orange order is neither, just a bunch of catholic haters akin to the KKK but for some reason are tolerated by our society.

:agree: As are rebels, insurgents and the like.

[ArabHibee]

One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

The orange order is neither, just a bunch of catholic haters akin to the KKK but for some reason are tolerated by our society.
Who said the Orange Order were? Not sure what your point is.

[Dunbar Hibee]

One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

The orange order is neither, just a bunch of catholic haters akin to the KKK but for some reason are tolerated by our society.

Another very good post.:agree:

[Dinkydoo]

Some of the posts on this thread really are astonishing. Killing innocent people is never acceptable however you try to justify it.

What a depressing country we live in.

[ArabHibee]

Some of the posts on this thread really are astonishing. Killing innocent people is never acceptable however you try to justify it.

What a depressing country we live in.

:agree:

[HNA6]

Another very good post.:agree:Another good post ..hows about actually adding something constructive to the thread..thats if you actually know anything about the subject ..

[Hibernian Verse]

Another good post ..hows about actually adding something constructive to the thread..thats if you actually know anything about the subject ..

Fair enough posting under your own alias, but surely an admin under the HNA name should be providing a service rather than belittling others' knowledge.

[Removed]

Some of the posts on this thread really are astonishing. Killing innocent people is never acceptable however you try to justify it.

What a depressing country we live in.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

[HNA6]

Fair enough posting under your own alias, but surely an admin under the HNA name should be providing a service rather than belittling others' knowledge.Who pissed in your cornflakes mate !!

My "official" take on this thread is that too many are out to score petty points ...YOU included ..

[Hibernian Verse]

Who pissed in your cornflakes mate !!

My "official" take on this thread is that too many are out to score petty points ...YOU included ..

Are you going to include yourself in that or is it fine if it's official? I was merely asking a question, you chose to take it to heart.

[HNA6]

Are you going to include yourself in that or is it fine if it's official? I was merely asking a question, you chose to take it to heart.You didnt ask a question though ..you were having a wee dig ..a wee pathetic & predictable dig ..in fact yer last couple of posts have been wee digs at either Admin or the site ...

I could take out a few posts on here that would be open to question with regards thread topic but you see fit to question me ..

Unusual for you btw as always thought you were a reasoned poster .. So..whats yer agenda ..?

[Pete]

Some of the posts on this thread really are astonishing. Killing innocent people is never acceptable however you try to justify it.

What a depressing country we live in.

I agree.

However, I'm having trouble finding posts on this thread where folk are trying to justify the killing of innocent people.

[Hibernian Verse]

You didnt ask a question though ..you were having a wee dig ..a wee pathetic & predictable dig ..in fact yer last couple of posts have been wee digs at either Admin or the site ...

I could take out a few posts on here that would be open to question with regards thread topic but you see fit to question me ..

Unusual for you btw as always thought you were a reasoned poster .. So..whats yer agenda ..?

I genuinely didn't know that HNAs posted on topics, hence why I thought it was out of the ordinary. It was a question, just perhaps phrased wrong. And in the post about the PM Board I went on to say how I liked it - I was simply playing to the non-pmers :wink:

[Twa Cairpets]

I agree.

However, I'm having trouble finding posts on this thread where folk are trying to justify the killing of innocent people.


Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

There you go.

[ArabHibee]

There you go.

My thoughts as well. But PD will probably say the provisional IRA didn't kill innocents.

[Removed]

I agree.

However, I'm having trouble finding posts on this thread where folk are trying to justify the killing of innocent people.

What about Tim Parry for starters?

Was that murder of an innocent part of the tactics you have no problem with?

[Removed]

:top marks Great post.:agree:

Really? Which bit?

I take it you are ok with the murder of kids in England as well then?

[Dunbar Hibee]

Another good post ..hows about actually adding something constructive to the thread..thats if you actually know anything about the subject ..

I commented as I agreed with the posts. I'll be more careful in the future as I don't want to post something that you don't agree with. My sincere apologies.:aok:

[Dunbar Hibee]

Really? Which bit?

I take it you are ok with the murder of kids in England as well then?

If you are referring to the 2 youngsters killed in 1974 of course I don't. What makes you think I would be??

[Removed]

If you are referring to the 2 youngsters killed in 1974 of course I don't. What makes you think I would be??

You gave Peter Douglas a :top marks and 'great post' for his one which included the comment "I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics".

So do you or don't you?

[Pete]

What about Tim Parry for starters?

Was that murder of an innocent part of the tactics you have no problem with?

Of course not.

The PIRA didn't declare war on kids. They had very specific aims and targets. The tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone, never mind innocent children.

If I'm justifying the killing of innocent children then ask yourself if you have ever taken any side in any armed conflict. If you have then using your own logic you are also doing the same. The tactics used by the british in iraq etc... might not be designed to kill innocents but unfortunately they do.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Of course not.

The PIRA didn't declare war on kids. They had very specific aims and targets. The tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone, never mind innocent children.
If I'm justifying the killing of innocent children then ask yourself if you have ever taken any side in any armed conflict. If you have then using your own logic you are also doing the same. The tactics used by the british in iraq etc... might not be designed to kill innocents but unfortunately they do.



WTF!!!!!! What exactly were they designed to do then? Un****inbelievable.

[ArabHibee]

Of course not.

The PIRA didn't declare war on kids. They had very specific aims and targets. The tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone, never mind innocent children.

If I'm justifying the killing of innocent children then ask yourself if you have ever taken any side in any armed conflict. If you have then using your own logic you are also doing the same. The tactics used by the british in iraq etc... might not be designed to kill innocents but unfortunately they do.
:faf:
You're not being serious are you?
Are you?
What an unbelievable statement to make.

[MSK]

I commented as I agreed with the posts. I'll be more careful in the future as I don't want to post something that you don't agree with. My sincere apologies.:aok:So you agree with this then ..?


The PIRA didn't declare war on kids. They had very specific aims and targets. The tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone

If so you need yer heid looked into along with Peter ...****ing unbelievable !!!! :crazy:

[1two]

:faf:
You're not being serious are you?
Are you?
What an unbelievable statement to make.

I'm not agreeing with PD here but I get his point. How many innocents have the British killed in the Irish conflicts or othe conflicts?
More than the provisional IRA? Undoubtedly.
More than the modern irish republicans? Im Not sure.
Of course this doesn't justify anything either side has done but neither side are innocent IMO.

Back to the subject though, if we're ever going to move on to 'full' peace and the Scottish government are driving home the 'anti-sectarian Scotland' theme, surely banning marches/walks that clearly still causes a lot of debate/conflict/whatever as has been shown in this thread, then surely putting an end to orange walks is progress?

Same goes for the Irish republican walks which I believe there are very few anyway!

[Twa Cairpets]

Of course not.

The PIRA didn't declare war on kids. They had very specific aims and targets. The tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone, never mind innocent children.

If I'm justifying the killing of innocent children then ask yourself if you have ever taken any side in any armed conflict. If you have then using your own logic you are also doing the same. The tactics used by the british in iraq etc... might not be designed to kill innocents but unfortunately they do.

This type of argument is entirely irrelevant. It is a "Tu Quoque" Logical Fallacy. (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/tu-quoque/)

Even allowing for the staggering stupidity of the statement "planting bombs...isn't designed to kill anyone" it happened, and happened regularly. You're the person who is attempting to defend the indefensible. Try doing it with reference as to why it would be an actively good thing to kill people rather than passively saying "its ok because they did it too".

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm not agreeing with PD here but I get his point. How many innocents have the British killed in the Irish conflicts or othe conflicts?
More than the provisional IRA? Undoubtedly.
More than the modern irish republicans? Im Not sure.
Of course this doesn't justify anything either side has done but neither side are innocent IMO.

Back to the subject though, if we're ever going to move on to 'full' peace and the Scottish government are driving home the 'anti-sectarian Scotland' theme, surely banning marches/walks that clearly still causes a lot of debate/conflict/whatever as has been shown in this thread, then surely putting an end to orange walks is progress?

Same goes for the Irish republican walks which I believe there are very few anyway!

Yet in Northern Ireland, where the issue surely cuts deeper, part of the peace has been to allow the walks to continue.

[Dunbar Hibee]

So you agree with this then ..?


The PIRA didn't declare war on kids. They had very specific aims and targets. The tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone

If so you need yer heid looked into along with Peter ...****ing unbelievable !!!! :crazy:

I would agree that the PIRA didn't declare war on kids, and they had very specific aims and targets. However they of course were intending to kill.

[Pete]

This type of argument is entirely irrelevant. It is a "Tu Quoque" Logical Fallacy. (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/tu-quoque/)

Even allowing for the staggering stupidity of the statement "planting bombs...isn't designed to kill anyone" it happened, and happened regularly. You're the person who is attempting to defend the indefensible. Try doing it with reference as to why it would be an actively good thing to kill people rather than passively saying "its ok because they did it too".

All I have right now is stolen moments on a phone
So I appreciate I am making a hash of defending my
Position but its hard.

My original statement was based on the fact that I believe
They had the right to exist.

The tactics was referring to who their actual targets were
Things like the long war.

I'll try and get to a pc because I'm sounding like I'm condoning all of their actions which I certainly don't.

[Sir David Gray]

I'm sorry but who are you to tell people what board they should be posting on?

He's a hibee and and believes in Irish republicanism...therefore he isn't welcome and should post on another teams board due to the amount of people who have similar beliefs? Maybe those with strong pro-palestinian beliefs should also follow suit and post on Celtic boards.

Having beliefs on this particular subject is neither "childish" or "moronic" as some describe because it is a subject that, wether we like it or not, has shaped the country we live in. Some take it too far and live in the distant past but it is still part of our lives due to the close proximity of the land in question and the continuing bigotry towards a certain section of our community.

Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

What box will you put me in after reading that? Shall I go away and post on a Celtic board?

That's an unbelievable statement to make. :confused:

The PIRA were responsible for the injuries and deaths of literally dozens and dozens of civilians in Northern Ireland over many years and were no more committed to any peaceful conclusion to the conflict than their loyalist counterparts in the UVF or the UDA.

I've not quoted your most recent post on the subject about "the tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone" but that is just ridiculous to say the least. Anything can go wrong when you're talking about explosive devices and there were various instances where their "warnings" were far too late and inadequate.

These people were/are terrorists and murderers who blighted the lives of ordinary men, women and children across many communities in Northern Ireland over many years and I cannot believe that there are people who are seriously attempting to defend their actions.


I'm not agreeing with PD here but I get his point. How many innocents have the British killed in the Irish conflicts or othe conflicts?
More than the provisional IRA? Undoubtedly.
More than the modern irish republicans? Im Not sure.
Of course this doesn't justify anything either side has done but neither side are innocent IMO.

Back to the subject though, if we're ever going to move on to 'full' peace and the Scottish government are driving home the 'anti-sectarian Scotland' theme, surely banning marches/walks that clearly still causes a lot of debate/conflict/whatever as has been shown in this thread, then surely putting an end to orange walks is progress?

Same goes for the Irish republican walks which I believe there are very few anyway!

There was one of those a few months ago in a place not too far from where I stay and the residents actually put in multiple objections to the council saying that they did not want this march to happen in their area. The council was powerless to prevent the march from going ahead and to grant the wishes of a majority of residents because to stop the march would have breached the European Convention on Human Rights.

[Sir David Gray]

All I have right now is stolen moments on a phone
So I appreciate I am making a hash of defending my
Position but its hard.

My original statement was based on the fact that I believe
They had the right to exist.

The tactics was referring to who their actual targets were
Things like the long war.

I'll try and get to a pc because I'm sounding like I'm condoning all of their actions which I certainly don't.

You said, and I quote;


Based on my research of the subject, I have no real problem with the provisional IRA or their tactics. I've come to the conclusion that they were desperate, downtrodden people who simply wanted to banish a foreign invader who imposed their will wherever they saw fit.

If you didn't mean to give the impression that you were condoning all of the actions of the PIRA then you haven't done a very good job in explaining yourself.

[1two]

Yet in Northern Ireland, where the issue surely cuts deeper, part of the peace has been to allow the walks to continue.

And have they walked peacefully? Without researching it my guess would be no!

[1two]

There was one of those a few months ago in a place not too far from where I stay and the residents actually put in multiple objections to the council saying that they did not want this march to happen in their area. The council was powerless to prevent the march from going ahead and to grant the wishes of a majority of residents because to stop the march would have breached the European Convention on Human Rights.

Not sure if it's a human rights breach but if that's the case why or how did they manage to ban the islam4uk protest in Wooton basset? I think that was the right decision but using it for arguement sake.

Who makes these decisions?

[Woody1985]

Not sure if it's a human rights breach but if that's the case why or how did they manage to ban the islam4uk protest in Wooton basset? I think that was the right decision but using it for arguement sake. Who makes these decisions? My memory is that islam4uk cancelled it themselves after pissing everyone off and getting the reaction they wanted.

[Pete]

You said, and I quote;



If you didn't mean to give the impression that you were condoning all of the actions of the PIRA then you haven't done a very good job in explaining yourself.

What I've tried to do is look at all
The facts from the very start of
The conflict in ireland and come to a
Conclusion. My conclusion is that the
British were the invading force and
Occupiers and the irish have been
Wronged big time.
I have absolutely no problem with an
Oppressed people taking up arms against
Tyrannical regime. Its irrelevant who
Is involved.
I therefore have no problem with the
Concept of the PIRA. They were a symptom
Of the oppressive regime and the way they
Mis-treated the catholics. Their demands
Might have seemed too much for some but
The only way for true justice to be done
In ireland was if they were.
People talk about the misery they caused
But the NI catholics would probably continued
Living a life of misery if they weren't.

when I mentioned tactics I was meaning
Who they were targeting...the symbols and tools
Of the oppressive regime. I was also
Meaning their military tactics.
I looked on it objectively and tried
To look at the big picture. The actual
Tactics themselves aren't designed to kill
Civilians and are different from some of
Todays more ruthless terrorists.
However, they did in some instances which
I certainly don't agree with in any way.
But what tactics could they have used?
They had declared war and it wasn't a
Tickling contest. Dialogue wasn't working.

Maybe I'm being too ruthless in my analasys
Of the whole situation and not looking at
The emotive side of the coin so I apologise
If I have offended anyone.

[lapsedhibee]

What I've tried to do is look at all
The facts from the very start of
The conflict in ireland and come to a
Conclusion. My conclusion is that the
British were the invading force and
Occupiers and the irish have been
Wronged big time.
I have absolutely no problem with an
Oppressed people taking up arms against
Tyrannical regime. Its irrelevant who
Is involved.
I therefore have no problem with the
Concept of the PIRA. They were a symptom
Of the oppressive regime and the way they
Mis-treated the catholics. Their demands
Might have seemed too much for some but
The only way for true justice to be done
In ireland was if they were.
People talk about the misery they caused
But the NI catholics would probably continued
Living a life of misery if they weren't.

when I mentioned tactics I was meaning
Who they were targeting...the symbols and tools
Of the oppressive regime. I was also
Meaning their military tactics.
I looked on it objectively and tried
To look at the big picture. The actual
Tactics themselves aren't designed to kill
Civilians and are different from some of
Todays more ruthless terrorists.
However, they did in some instances which
I certainly don't agree with in any way.
But what tactics could they have used?
They had declared war and it wasn't a
Tickling contest. Dialogue wasn't working.

Maybe I'm being too ruthless in my analasys
Of the whole situation and not looking at
The emotive side of the coin so I apologise
If I have offended anyone.

You Irish and your wacky poetry. I blame James Joyce.

[marinello59]

You Irish and your wacky poetry. I blame James Joyce.
:tee hee:

[Betty Boop]

Did the PIRA not become prominent in Northern Ireland, as a result of the civil rights campaign, when the Catholic community was being discriminated against, and denied the vote ?

[Twa Cairpets]

when I mentioned tactics I was meaning
Who they were targeting...the symbols and tools
Of the oppressive regime. I was also
Meaning their military tactics.
I looked on it objectively and tried
To look at the big picture. The actual
Tactics themselves aren't designed to kill
Civilians and are different from some of
Todays more ruthless terrorists.However, they did in some instances which
I certainly don't agree with in any way.
But what tactics could they have used?
They had declared war and it wasn't a
Tickling contest. Dialogue wasn't working.

Maybe I'm being too ruthless in my analasys
Of the whole situation and not looking at
The emotive side of the coin so I apologise
If I have offended anyone.

Wikipedia report an estimated 630 civilian deaths of around 1800 attributable ot the IRA. More than one in three. Badly designed tactics you'd have to conclude. Just as well they were just inept and not those pesky modern ruthless terrorists eh?

I struggle to think of any justification for a campaign of murder. It wasn't a war, no matter how much one side really really wished it was. Affirming it to be such does not make it so. Violent thugs on both sides undertaking cowardly attacks is not war, it is terrorism, and is entirley indefensible.

[Jonnyboy]

What I've tried to do is look at all
The facts from the very start of
The conflict in ireland and come to a
Conclusion. My conclusion is that the
British were the invading force and
Occupiers and the irish have been
Wronged big time.
I have absolutely no problem with an
Oppressed people taking up arms against
Tyrannical regime. Its irrelevant who
Is involved.
I therefore have no problem with the
Concept of the PIRA. They were a symptom
Of the oppressive regime and the way they
Mis-treated the catholics. Their demands
Might have seemed too much for some but
The only way for true justice to be done
In ireland was if they were.
People talk about the misery they caused
But the NI catholics would probably continued
Living a life of misery if they weren't.

when I mentioned tactics I was meaning
Who they were targeting...the symbols and tools
Of the oppressive regime. I was also
Meaning their military tactics.
I looked on it objectively and tried
To look at the big picture. The actual
Tactics themselves aren't designed to kill
Civilians and are different from some of
Todays more ruthless terrorists.
However, they did in some instances which
I certainly don't agree with in any way.
But what tactics could they have used?
They had declared war and it wasn't a
Tickling contest. Dialogue wasn't working.

Maybe I'm being too ruthless in my analasys
Of the whole situation and not looking at
The emotive side of the coin so I apologise
If I have offended anyone.

I must be missing something here. How can the British Army be an 'invading force' in Northern Ireland?

[bigwheel]

I must be missing something here. How can the British Army be an 'invading force' in Northern Ireland?

Why not... do you think Ireland was always split??

[Jonnyboy]

Why not... do you think Ireland was always split??

No of course not but it is now

[1two]

I must be missing something here. How can the British Army be an 'invading force' in Northern Ireland?

You have missed the fact that the irish Republicans seen/see them as an invading force, that's what the whole war/conflict is/was about???

Like 90% of wars it's down to territory, so surely there's always an invading force depending on which side your on?

Falklands?
Palestine?
Afghanistan?
Vietnam?

Different wars but similar arguments??

[Jonnyboy]

You have missed the fact that the irish Republicans seen/see them as an invading force, that's what the whole war/conflict is/was about???

Like 90% of wars it's down to territory, so surely there's always an invading force depending on which side your on?

Falklands?
Palestine?
Afghanistan?
Vietnam?

Different wars but similar arguments??

Sorry 1two I'm guilty of reading PD's statement incorrectly. Of course I see that Republicans view the British Army as an invading force. I just got my wires crossed is all (it's an age thing :wink:)

[1two]

Sorry 1two I'm guilty of reading PD's statement incorrectly. Of course I see that Republicans view the British Army as an invading force. I just got my wires crossed is all (it's an age thing :wink:)

:aok: it comes to all of us :wink:

On the subject of other wars I've re-thunked my previous statement, is there any wars that don't revolve around territory? I can't think of any. Iraq possibly but the cynic would argue Iraq war is entirely down to territory.
I don't think there is!

[Lucius Apuleius]

That's an unbelievable statement to make. :confused:

The PIRA were responsible for the injuries and deaths of literally dozens and dozens of civilians in Northern Ireland over many years and were no more committed to any peaceful conclusion to the conflict than their loyalist counterparts in the UVF or the UDA.

I've not quoted your most recent post on the subject about "the tactic of planting bombs and giving warnings isn't designed to kill anyone" but that is just ridiculous to say the least. Anything can go wrong when you're talking about explosive devices and there were various instances where their "warnings" were far too late and inadequate.

These people were/are terrorists and murderers who blighted the lives of ordinary men, women and children across many communities in Northern Ireland over many years and I cannot believe that there are people who are seriously attempting to defend their actions.



There was one of those a few months ago in a place not too far from where I stay and the residents actually put in multiple objections to the council saying that they did not want this march to happen in their area. The council was powerless to prevent the march from going ahead and to grant the wishes of a majority of residents because to stop the march would have breached the European Convention on Human Rights.

There were a few objections mate. Not as many as you would imagine though. The police did react though and stopped them from marching through the town centre. It should be noted though that it was stated at the time that it was not a Republican march. It was a march to show the world that the people of Denny did not like Irishmen.:greengrin A funny thing was, the night before the march, some of the local hunnery brigade were festooning the route with Union flag bunting spread between the lamposts. Plod caught them and made them take them all down again. On the day there were two arrests (females). Only about 300 actually turned up for the walk. Me? I stayed in the hoose!!!!

[Phil D. Rolls]

And have they walked peacefully? Without researching it my guess would be no!

What would have happened had the walks been banned though? It's a complex situation.

[Beefster]

You have missed the fact that the irish Republicans seen/see them as an invading force, that's what the whole war/conflict is/was about???

Like 90% of wars it's down to territory, so surely there's always an invading force depending on which side your on?

Falklands?
Palestine?
Afghanistan?
Vietnam?

Different wars but similar arguments??

I'm fairly sure that who is the invading force depends on which country the region/nation is part of at the time.

[The Harp Awakes]

I don't know what ArabHibee was meaning, but the reason I chipped in was because while there are lots of things I'm really uncomfortable with regarding the Orange Order, living where I do I know quite a few Orangemen (and their families) and neither are they all 5' 6" with bad haircuts nor are they pathetic inadequates with bad self-images. Most of the guys I know are pretty decent people, actually. The real question, I suspect, is why are these decent guys Orangemen?

I always think BNP leader Nick Griffen portrays himself and his party as pretty much the victim/s on TV. There will also be a good few of his neighbours I expect, that think he's an all-right guy. The bottom line though is that it is all a smoke-screen.

The raison d'etre of the BNP, KKK and the Orange Order (and a good few other insipid organisations), is founded on bigotry, racism and hatred of another person's religion/race. The Orange Order in particular, appear to somehow have an heir of respectability in our country which seems a bit odd to me. Call me a cynic, but perhaps this 'head in the sand' attitude to the Orange Order's open displays of bigotry may be something to do with Scotland's population being overwhelmingly non-catholic.

The funny thing is that I'm sure the majority of our population would be up in arms if there were open, public displays of bigotry against muslims, black folk, Asian people or other ethnic minorities (and rightly so I might add).

Double standards or what?

[--------]

I always think BNP leader Nick Griffen portrays himself and his party as pretty much the victim/s on TV. There will also be a good few of his neighbours I expect, that think he's an all-right guy. The bottom line though is that it is all a smoke-screen.

The raison d'etre of the BNP, KKK and the Orange Order (and a good few other insipid organisations), is founded on bigotry, racism and hatred of another person's religion/race. The Orange Order in particular, appear to somehow have an heir of respectability in our country which seems a bit odd to me. Call me a cynic, but perhaps this 'head in the sand' attitude to the Orange Order's open displays of bigotry may be something to do with Scotland's population being overwhelmingly non-catholic.

The funny thing is that I'm sure the majority of our population would be up in arms if there were open, public displays of bigotry against muslims, black folk, Asian people or other ethnic minorities (and rightly so I might add).

Double standards or what?


I don't consider I was taking a 'head in the sand' attitude to the LOI. I was merely pointing out that one doesn't get very far discussing the question by resorting to the sort of stereotyping and name-calling that one would rightly object to if it were applied to oneself.

The demographics of Scotland's population don't resolve themselves into 'Catholic' and 'non-Catholic', surely. Even in the Caldera there are lots and lots of non-Catholics who would be very uncomfortable to say the least being lumped in with the LOI or the BNP. I would consider myself one of them, actually. (I'm not aware of a local Klavern of the KKK, but if I hear of them, I'll let you know.)

Historically, Scotland has generally been welcoming of incomers. We're one of the very few nations in Western Europe with no history of anti-Semitism, for example. Perhaps it's worth asking why this particular organisation has found such a place in our society as it has?


BTW - what did you mean by describing the BNP, KKK and LOI as 'insipid' organisations? :confused:

[Dashing Bob S]

Northern Ireland was a sectarian state, set up to maintain a protestant, unionist hegemony, where Catholics were discriminated against. This day-to-day treatment and discrimination in housing, education, gerrymandering of electoral boundaries etc, much more than the partition of Ireland, explains the rise of the provos and terrorist groups.

History shows that when people are treated unfairly they will revolt, and atrocities on both sides will take place. Whether these are 'right' or 'wrong' is largely irrelevant - they will happen.

The truth is that without the activities of the IRA, progress probably wouldn't have been made in Northern Ireland to extent it has been today. It wasn't the aim of the IRA, they wanted a united Ireland, just as the unionists wanted continued domination and suppression of Catholics - so neither, nor the shameful UK governments or the ineffective Irish ones, could be said to have got their way.

It's sad that it takes the bomb and bullet to get entrenched interests to the negotiating table, but history shows that's often the only way groups with legitimate causes who want to change things, get taken seriously.

The orange marches back then were a symbol of that dominance, psuedo-fascist affairs designed to let Catholics know exactly who was boss. Now that things are different and Belfast Town Hall, Queens University etc have a majority of nationalists, they seem weird, anarchronistic and vaguely pathetic affairs. (There's nothing sadder than a loser trying to pass himself off as a winner.) But having them isn't going to help eradicate sectarianism in Northern Ireland or Scotland.

[Betty Boop]

Northern Ireland was a sectarian state, set up to maintain a protestant, unionist hegemony, where Catholics were discriminated against. This day-to-day treatment and discrimination in housing, education, gerrymandering of electoral boundaries etc, much more than the partition of Ireland, explains the rise of the provos and terrorist groups.

History shows that when people are treated unfairly they will revolt, and atrocities on both sides will take place. Whether these are 'right' or 'wrong' is largely irrelevant - they will happen.

The truth is that without the activities of the IRA, progress probably wouldn't have been made in Northern Ireland to extent it has been today. It wasn't the aim of the IRA, they wanted a united Ireland, just as the unionists wanted continued domination and suppression of Catholics - so neither, nor the shameful UK governments or the ineffective Irish ones, could be said to have got their way.

It's sad that it takes the bomb and bullet to get entrenched interests to the negotiating table, but history shows that's often the only way groups with legitimate causes who want to change things, get taken seriously.

The orange marches back then were a symbol of that dominance, psuedo-fascist affairs designed to let Catholics know exactly who was boss. Now that things are different and Belfast Town Hall, Queens University etc have a majority of nationalists, they seem weird, anarchronistic and vaguely pathetic affairs. (There's nothing sadder than a loser trying to pass himself off as a winner.) But having them isn't going to help eradicate sectarianism in Northern Ireland or Scotland.

:top marks

[The Harp Awakes]

I don't consider I was taking a 'head in the sand' attitude to the LOI. I was merely pointing out that one doesn't get very far discussing the question by resorting to the sort of stereotyping and name-calling that one would rightly object to if it were applied to oneself.

The demographics of Scotland's population don't resolve themselves into 'Catholic' and 'non-Catholic', surely. Even in the Caldera there are lots and lots of non-Catholics who would be very uncomfortable to say the least being lumped in with the LOI or the BNP. I would consider myself one of them, actually. (I'm not aware of a local Klavern of the KKK, but if I hear of them, I'll let you know.)

Historically, Scotland has generally been welcoming of incomers. We're one of the very few nations in Western Europe with no history of anti-Semitism, for example. Perhaps it's worth asking why this particular organisation has found such a place in our society as it has?


BTW - what did you mean by describing the BNP, KKK and LOI as 'insipid' organisations? :confused:

Fair enough, I agree with your point on stereotyping.

The comment on 'insipid' organisations was a bit of sarcasm which, on reflection, didn't really work. Some of the posts on the thread seem to be asking what all the fuss is about OO, which I found quite unbelievable, hence the use of words.

[Sir David Gray]

Not sure if it's a human rights breach but if that's the case why or how did they manage to ban the islam4uk protest in Wooton basset? I think that was the right decision but using it for arguement sake.

Who makes these decisions?

It was definitely reported at the time that the march could not have been prevented because to do so would have breached the human rights of those taking part in the march.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-13105383


There were a few objections mate. Not as many as you would imagine though. The police did react though and stopped them from marching through the town centre. It should be noted though that it was stated at the time that it was not a Republican march. It was a march to show the world that the people of Denny did not like Irishmen.:greengrin A funny thing was, the night before the march, some of the local hunnery brigade were festooning the route with Union flag bunting spread between the lamposts. Plod caught them and made them take them all down again. On the day there were two arrests (females). Only about 300 actually turned up for the walk. Me? I stayed in the hoose!!!!

I know Denny has a large Rangers following so it doesn't surprise me that the locals were putting up Union flag bunting etc and it wouldn't surprise me if they did oppose the march purely on that basis.

However, the point I was trying to make was that a lot of residents in Denny clearly did not wish to see this march take place and, regardless of the reasons why they didn't want to see this march take place, they have the right to object to something that is taking place in their local area. Unfortunately their opinion was worthless because of the human rights law.

People were talking about banning Orange walks and all I was trying to get at was that it may not be as easy as just banning them because of the human rights legislation.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It was definitely reported at the time that the march could not have been prevented because to do so would have breached the human rights of those taking part in the march.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-13105383



I know Denny has a large Rangers following so it doesn't surprise me that the locals were putting up Union flag bunting etc and it wouldn't surprise me if they did oppose the march purely on that basis.

However, the point I was trying to make was that a lot of residents in Denny clearly did not wish to see this march take place and, regardless of the reasons why they didn't want to see this march take place, they have the right to object to something that is taking place in their local area. Unfortunately their opinion was worthless because of the human rights law.

People were talking about banning Orange walks and all I was trying to get at was that it may not be as easy as just banning them because of the human rights legislation.

You make human rights sound like a bad thing FH.

[Lucius Apuleius]

It was definitely reported at the time that the march could not have been prevented because to do so would have breached the human rights of those taking part in the march.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-13105383



I know Denny has a large Rangers following so it doesn't surprise me that the locals were putting up Union flag bunting etc and it wouldn't surprise me if they did oppose the march purely on that basis.

However, the point I was trying to make was that a lot of residents in Denny clearly did not wish to see this march take place and, regardless of the reasons why they didn't want to see this march take place, they have the right to object to something that is taking place in their local area. Unfortunately their opinion was worthless because of the human rights law.

People were talking about banning Orange walks and all I was trying to get at was that it may not be as easy as just banning them because of the human rights legislation.

Think you are missing the point that Denny also has a very large Celtc following (and a couple of Hibby families as well). They never came out in numbers to support this. The numbers game is what it is all about. I am absolutely sure that if Central Region Polis got an extremely large number of complaints, it would not have happened. How many? Nnot a clue. Most rational people were more concerned at some group's statement that Denny people were prejudiced to Irish folk. Taking the resident knuckle draggers out the equation, this is simply not true.

[Sir David Gray]

You make human rights sound like a bad thing FH.

As far as I'm concerned, the laws on human rights have gone way above and beyond what they were supposed to represent in this country. I often shake my head when I hear people complaining that their human rights have been breached over something so trivial and yet we have people in dozens of countries who are being routinely shot dead, tortured and imprisoned without a proper trial or legal representation just because they want to protest against things such as low pay, high unemployment and, in the case of Saudi Arabia, women who have the audacity to protest against the ban on them driving.

For me, those are the people that the human rights laws were set up to protect. Over here, we have convicted murderers, rapists and paedophiles from every corner of the globe that we can't deport back to their country of origin because they say that it would breach their human rights! Like I say, as far as Britain's concerned, these laws have gone too far in the opposite direction of which they were intended.

In my opinion, of course.

Anyway, I've sort of gone quite a bit away from the original subject matter so that will probably be my last word on this subject.

[Phil D. Rolls]

As far as I'm concerned, the laws on human rights have gone way above and beyond what they were supposed to represent in this country. I often shake my head when I hear people complaining that their human rights have been breached over something so trivial and yet we have people in dozens of countries who are being routinely shot dead, tortured and imprisoned without a proper trial or legal representation just because they want to protest against things such as low pay, high unemployment and, in the case of Saudi Arabia, women who have the audacity to protest against the ban on them driving.

For me, those are the people that the human rights laws were set up to protect. Over here, we have convicted murderers, rapists and paedophiles from every corner of the globe that we can't deport back to their country of origin because they say that it would breach their human rights! Like I say, as far as Britain's concerned, these laws have gone too far in the opposite direction of which they were intended.

In my opinion, of course.

Anyway, I've sort of gone quite a bit away from the original subject matter so that will probably be my last word on this subject.

I agree that some people have taken it too far, but I think the principle of human rights is a good one. Like you say, those who benefit from those rights should also appreciate that others have them too.

[--------]

I agree that some people have taken it too far, but I think the principle of human rights is a good one. Like you say, those who benefit from those rights should also appreciate that others have them too.


How do we frame a law that protects the right to free expression and orderly legal demonstration in support of causes, while preventing people from abusing those rights by using them to attack others?

Without having a list of proscribed organisations, that is?

I know people who would happily ban Orange Walks, but allow Republican marches, and others who'd do the exact opposite. I think we'd be lots better off without either happening in Scotland or anywhere else.

Some folks would ban Gay Pride marches. Others would be OK about them. Others might be disturbed about certain aspects of them. I'm in the third group, myself.

Some would ban the BNP and the Westchester Baptists from ever receiving the oxygen of publicity ever again. Others would say that even they have the right to free speech. (I would disagree, btw. These groups are poisonous and foment hatred with the clear intention of causing hurt and injury to innocent people.)

I'm not sure how one can legislate to ban certain marches/demos/press releases without stopping legitimate freedom of expression and demonstration.

Equally, I do believe that there are certain opinions that merit banning orders - the propagation of racist or sectarian hatred, for example.

My point originally was that while we can legitimately attack bigotry and hate-mongering wherever we find it, we also need to ask ourselves why people who are OTHERWISE apparently rational beings adopt these positions, seeing no contradiction, for example, between the statement that a Ku Klux Klansman should have the Lord Jesus Christ as his model and example, while at the same time acting in a way that outrages every genuine principle and commandment laid down by the said LJC...

[Hibiza]

Always good humour value, ask any one to do the 8 x table. :flag: