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JeMeSouviens
22-06-2011, 12:26 PM
The Scottish government have introduced their new bill at the SP:

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s4/bills/01-offbehfoot/index.htm

An excerpt:



Offensive behaviour at regulated football matches

1. A person commits an offence if, in relation to a regulated football match—

(a) the person engages in behaviour of a kind described in subsection (2), and
(b) the behaviour—

(i) is likely to incite public disorder, or
(ii) would be likely to incite public disorder.

2. The behaviour is—

(a) expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against, a group of persons based on their membership (or presumed membership) of—

(i) a religious group,
(ii) a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation,
(iii) a group defined by reference to a thing mentioned in subsection (4),

(b) expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against, an individual based on the individual’s membership (or presumed membership) of a group mentioned in any of sub-paragraphs (i) to (iii) of paragraph (a),

(c) behaviour that is motivated (wholly or partly) by hatred of a group mentioned in any of those sub-paragraphs,

(d) behaviour that is threatening, or

(e) other behaviour that a reasonable person would be likely to consider offensive.

3. For the purposes of subsection (2)(a) and (b) it is irrelevant whether the hatred is also based (to any extent) on any other factor.

4. The things referred to in subsection (2)(a)(iii) are—

(a) colour,
(b) race,
(c) nationality (including citizenship),
(d) ethnic or national origins,
(e) sexual orientation,
(f) transgender identity,
(g) disability.




Anybody want to take a stab at how they'll interpret the bit in bold? :confused:

hibsbollah
22-06-2011, 12:42 PM
Thats the Thomson 'beast' chant consigned to the dustbin of history then.

IFONLY
22-06-2011, 12:46 PM
You can bet your bottom dollar that the first arrests for any of the misdameanours will not be at Parkhead or Ibrox.

yekimevol
22-06-2011, 12:55 PM
You can bet your bottom dollar that the first arrests for any of the misdameanours will not be at Parkhead or Ibrox.
Correct !!
So watch yourselfs lads. They will be out 2 get anyone 4 anything

Keith_M
22-06-2011, 02:16 PM
This is a rushed through piece of legislation who's only purpose is to demonstrate that the Scottish Government are taking some action.

A few points on this.


Legislation that is rushed through is never a good idea. Just have a look at the 'reasonable person' part, how exactly is that going to stand up in court?
There are laws already that cover the kind of behaviour that they want to get rid of, but these are not enforced. What makes them think the new laws will be?
The police have already raised concerns that they will be unable to enforce the new laws as it would be a significant strain on their resources.

The sectarian (poor term for what needs addressing) problems at football are restricted to Rangers, Celtc and to a lesser extent Hearts. No one has ever had the b*lls to admit this.

For instance, Rangers new owner has said that they do not have a sectarian problem among their support and that 99.9% of their fans oppose the singing of sectarian songs. I look forward to hearing how loudly the 45 rangers fans who do sing those songs are at the next home game, or the 4 of them with incredible voices that visit Easter Road.

Sylar
22-06-2011, 02:28 PM
I'd like their definition of "sectarian". What songs are deemed acceptable/unacceptable?

Obvious ones from Rangers include anything with "FTP" or "Fenian Blood", but what else?

The Sash isn't sectarian (assuming none of the add-ons), the Famine Song isn't sectarian (certainly not the bit which is sung, though I'm aware of the other nasties within the other verses). Derry's Walls isn't exactly "vile" and as much as most folks dislike Follow Follow, GSTQ and Rule Britannia, they'd be hard pushed to prove sectarian affiliation.

Flipping over to the other half of the poisonous divide, and what sectarian songs do Celtc actually sing? I'm well aware of their pro-IRA chanting (which the Bill seems to address***), but from general ignorance (on my part) I don't actually know what Sectarian songs they sing?

I don't want the above to sound like an apologist approach to the OF, but from a legal grounding, they'd have an exceptionally hard time defining "Sectarian content" based on what the fans actually sing (and not the hidden verses/add ons which are omitted).

And if the first offence isn't at Parkhead or Ibrox, then it suggests there are problems/attitudes/opinions/idiots throughout Scottish Football. It would be stupid to suppose that idiots capable of offensive behaviour only follow Rangers, Celtic or Hearts.

***Edit: Actually, it doesn't mention anything relating to politics or terrorist groups. Would this constitute as "what any reasonable person finds offensive"?

JackRegan
22-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Could also potentially be the end of your "Weegie" ditties as well. :greengrin

Rushed through legislation that has so much subjectivity, purely to avoid isolating and exposing the real problem elemnts.

All so they don't have to punish the huns in isolastion.

Essentially, this means that at Orange Walks (and the dozen or so Republican ones) can play and sing all manner of garbage, but in the context of a football environment they suddenly become illegal.

sahib
22-06-2011, 03:08 PM
This is a rushed through piece of legislation who's only purpose is to demonstrate that the Scottish Government are taking some action.

A few points on this.


Legislation that is rushed through is never a good idea. Just have a look at the 'reasonable person' part, how exactly is that going to stand up in court?
There are laws already that cover the kind of behaviour that they want to get rid of, but these are not enforced. What makes them think the new laws will be?
The police have already raised concerns that they will be unable to enforce the new laws as it would be a significant strain on their resources.

The sectarian (poor term for what needs addressing) problems at football are restricted to Rangers, Celtc and to a lesser extent Hearts. No one has ever had the b*lls to admit this.

For instance, Rangers new owner has said that they do not have a sectarian problem among their support and that 99.9% of their fans oppose the singing of sectarian songs. I look forward to hearing how loudly the 45 rangers fans who do sing those songs are at the next home game, or the 4 of them with incredible voices that visit Easter Road.

This sounds like more illiberal legislation following in the footsteps of Tony Blair's blasphemy law. Free speech is a thing of the past.

Phil D. Rolls
23-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Glad Salmondo has stepped in and saved Roseanna "Mad" Cunningham's blushes. She just didn't think it through, and it would have been disaster. For example, what is the "sign of the cross", and if you do it the wrong way round does it still count?

RIP
23-06-2011, 04:57 PM
If it hastens the end of pathetic songs about mercer; refugees; peodophiles, edinburgh is wonderful etc

Hibs supporters were starting to build a strong singing section in the East last season until that infantile garbage started to emerge. More fitba songs, stuff tae noise up the opposition and cheer yer team - that's what we need

The other stuff belongs in the gutter

Arch Stanton
23-06-2011, 05:52 PM
The only thing that ever offended me at a football match was the goalscorer running past the opposition supporters making a shhhh sign with his finger to his mouth - if that isn't inciting I don't know what is.

The one thing I've learnt as a parent is not to make threats you can't/won't follow through on - this bill is an embarrassing failure in the making. I reckon the police would be more usefully focussed on fighting racial abuse and wife beating, it's not like they have any time left over from dealing with those issues.

Bishop Hibee
23-06-2011, 06:04 PM
The police have the power now to go into the crowd and lift people for breach of the peace etc if they see fit. Sectarianism is a poison but this isn't going to stop anything.

An end to any chant that isn't pro the team you support e.g. "you Hearts *******", "Go home ya Huns", "In your Gorgie slums" or "you are a weegie".?

What is a "reasonable person"? One who wishes football fans didn't exist and the whole shooting match was closed down?

Watch out as anyone will be a target for the authorities at Scottish football grounds.

heretoday
23-06-2011, 07:29 PM
This whole process is a complete waste of legislative time when there are more important things to consider.

Indeed, it could, arguably, count as a breach of human rights to be had up for making "the sign of the cross" or singing the national anthem inappropriately.

It smacks of the government being seen to do something when the problem lies at the root of society. It's not something you can clamp down on in the courts.

The same old flags will be flown and the same old songs will be sung next year and the year after until all Scottish kids go to the same school irrespective of religion.

What is religious denomination now anyway? It's become a hook to hang your flag on.

Cabbage East
23-06-2011, 07:38 PM
If it hastens the end of pathetic songs about mercer; refugees; peodophiles, edinburgh is wonderful etc

Hibs supporters were starting to build a strong singing section in the East last season until that infantile garbage started to emerge. More fitba songs, stuff tae noise up the opposition and cheer yer team - that's what we need

The other stuff belongs in the gutter


Mercer songs will never stop and rightly so.

Andy74
23-06-2011, 08:34 PM
Long time since I studied law but the reasonable person type test was pretty common in legislation or interpretation of common law.

Antifa Hibs
23-06-2011, 08:52 PM
It's a *** farce if you ask me.

Nout will be done, OF fans play the number game well, they know the polis ain't gonna huckle anyone for a dodgy song or two.

That lassie SNP MSP tae, couldn't define what is sectarian or not "its too difficult to determine whats sectarian and what isnt..." - can't define 'sectarianism' yet they want to send people to jail for 'sectarianism' :rolleyes: :faf:

All blown out of proportion anyway. Anyone that gets offended by a song, flag or gesture needs to get a grip.

dangermouse
24-06-2011, 09:21 AM
Mercer songs will never stop and rightly so.

He's dead, get over it.

RIP
24-06-2011, 09:37 AM
Mercer songs will never stop and rightly so.

Maybe

They will be lot quieter though with less people joining in next season :wink:

ballengeich
24-06-2011, 09:42 AM
This is a rushed through piece of legislation who's only purpose is to demonstrate that the Scottish Government are taking some action.

A few points on this.


Legislation that is rushed through is never a good idea. Just have a look at the 'reasonable person' part, how exactly is that going to stand up in court?
There are laws already that cover the kind of behaviour that they want to get rid of, but these are not enforced. What makes them think the new laws will be?
The police have already raised concerns that they will be unable to enforce the new laws as it would be a significant strain on their resources.


I agree with this. Let's enforce existing laws first. The legislation looks like a classic example of politicians wanting to be seen to do something.

Roseanna Cunningham is normally an articlate speaker, but when the legislation was first proposed her defence of it contained "ums" and "ers" in a way you'd never normally hear from her. I suspect she had doubts about it.

RIP
24-06-2011, 12:38 PM
I agree with this. Let's enforce existing laws first. The legislation looks like a classic example of politicians wanting to be seen to do something.

Roseanna Cunningham is normally an articlate speaker, but when the legislation was first proposed her defence of it contained "ums" and "ers" in a way you'd never normally hear from her. I suspect she had doubts about it.

To be honest the politicians and meedja are spoiling things by coming up with stupid examples. All the Government are doing is tightenting up the existing law.

At the end of the day the courts will apply the law, not the politicians

Jack
24-06-2011, 04:05 PM
To be honest the politicians and meedja are spoiling things by coming up with stupid examples. All the Government are doing is tightenting up the existing law.

At the end of the day the courts will apply the law and common sense will prevail


Common sense isn’t all that common anyway, in fact quite rare, but applying to the law is just f’n ridiculous :faf:

RIP
24-06-2011, 04:10 PM
Common sense isn’t all that common anyway, in fact quite rare, but applying to the law is just f’n ridiculous :faf:

Couldn't agree more :wink: