Safe Standing at Football Matches

[Jack]

You all might be interested to know that there's a Bill going through the Westminster Parliament just now aimed at introducing safe standing to football down there. More info here http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/safestandingfootballstadia.html

It would seem from that it would be upto the Scottish Parliament to introduce similar legislation in Scotland. I’ve recently written to one of my MSPs, Margo MacDonald, asking her to take up the case for the Scottish supporters.

All you folk that want safe standing introduced to Scottish football should do the same.

If anyone is looking in who normally post on other clubs forums feel free to pass this on – the close season is a time for peace and harmony. :greengrin

Here’s a copy of my letter to give you a clue what to do!




…

I remember back in my early days standing on the terrace and the atmosphere that created.

Nowadays you'll be only too well aware that standing is not permitted in any of the SPL grounds following Lord Taylors report some 20 years ago; although even he said that standing was not the cause of the likes of Hillsborough.

The well worn excuses for maintaining exclusively all seater stadia are many and are trotted out by the authorities whenever the question is raised. The excuses around standing at football matches not being safe have never have been based on evidence. The fact that safe standing is a fundamental part of stadia across Europe and other parts of the world, where one assumes the authorities are also concerned for the welfare of their citizens, seems to be conveniently bypassed by otherwise intelligent people. Clubs say they would love to change but their hands are tied.

You may be aware that in the House of Commons there is a Bill which will receive a Second Reading debate on 17 June 2011.

Summary of the Bill

a Bill to give all football clubs the freedom to build, or maintain existing, safe standing sections in their stadia if they choose; to establish minimum safety criteria that must be met for standing sections in football stadia; and for connected purposes.

I have attached as an annex the full text of the Ten Minute Rule motion which puts forward a reasoned argument for the introduction of safe standing.

I am not sure if this would be a reserved area, the motion suggests not, I don’t even think the all seater stadia guidelines are covered by law or regulation! When I asked my SNP candidate at the recent election, the only candidate I saw, she was unaware of any policies the SNP have about this.

I would like you to raise this issue with the relevant authorities and press for the reintroduction of standing areas, or rather the introduction of safe standing areas in our home, Easter Road, and other stadia across Scotland.

[nickwhibs]

You all might be interested to know that there's a Bill going through the Westminster Parliament just now aimed at introducing safe standing to football down there. More info here http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/safestandingfootballstadia.html

It would seem from that it would be upto the Scottish Parliament to introduce similar legislation in Scotland. I’ve recently written to one of my MSPs, Margo MacDonald, asking her to take up the case for the Scottish supporters.

All you folk that want safe standing introduced to Scottish football should do the same.

If anyone is looking in who normally post on other clubs forums feel free to pass this on – the close season is a time for peace and harmony. :greengrin

Here’s a copy of my letter to give you a clue what to do!




Good work mate! Really hope this happens - I think it'll only be a matter of time before we follow the example set my our more forward-thinking German counterparts.

[HH81]

Where at Easter road could we have a safe standing section though?

[dangermouse]

Where at Easter road could we have a safe standing section though?

That's why they missed a trick with the new East. A two tiered stand would have allowed the lower section to be standing. Unlikely to have standing in the flagship West so that leaves lower tier of Famous Five.

[LancashireHibby]

Would have to be the lower tier of the FF for me. Would be great to relocate the singing section behind the goal if safe standing ever came to fruition.

[Hal Jordan]

Where at Easter road could we have a safe standing section though?

The first 4 rows of the East are built into the ground...

[dangermouse]

The first 4 rows of the East are built into the ground...

Is the rake not too steep though?

[HH81]

The thing is I thought about the lower FF however my main point is would Hibs want to take up some perfectly good seats and pay for the standing section? Also would it be big enough to get a decent crowd in there? I would guess maybe only 1000 would fit in that bit.

[MSK]

The thing is I thought about the lower FF however my main point is would Hibs want to take up some perfectly good seats and pay for the standing section? Also would it be big enough to get a decent crowd in there? I would guess maybe only 1000 would fit in that bit.IMO ..not a chance ..

[Beefster]

Not many Private Members' Bills become law in Westminster so I wouldn't rely on the rest of the UK allowing standing to bolster the case up here.

[ScottB]

Really can't see clubs ripping up seats to allow standing (which I would imagine folk would expect to pay less for too), nor is there likely to be a huge market of folk who currently won't go to the football because they can't stand.

Suppose such a move would benefit small clubs with old stadiums, but I don't think we'll be doing anything like it anytime soon.

[Keith_M]

The thing is I thought about the lower FF however my main point is would Hibs want to take up some perfectly good seats and pay for the standing section? Also would it be big enough to get a decent crowd in there? I would guess maybe only 1000 would fit in that bit.


There are 2,000 seats in that section so, depending how crowded they allow it to be, up to 4,000 could stand in the same space.

IMHO, the atmosphere from 3-4,000 in a terracing behind the goals would be great.

Whether the club would be happy to go along with that is another matter.

[.Sean.]

Pipedream, IMO. The idea is mooted all the time yet never comes to fruition.

[iwasthere1972]

Really can't see clubs ripping up seats to allow standing (which I would imagine folk would expect to pay less for too), nor is there likely to be a huge market of folk who currently won't go to the football because they can't stand.

Suppose such a move would benefit small clubs with old stadiums, but I don't think we'll be doing anything like it anytime soon.

:agree: The younger generation (under 30's) have in the main grown up with all seated stadium and anyone over that age is probably glad of a seat especially if they've just climbed the East Stand Summit.

[Saorsa]

:agree: The younger generation (under 30's) have in the main grown up with all seated stadium and anyone over that age is probably glad of a seat especially if they've just climbed the East Stand Summit.I'm over 30 and I'd like tae stand thanks :agree:

[lucky]

It's never going to happen. There will be a public out cry from the families of the Hillsbrough disaster

[Boris]

It's never going to happen. There will be a public out cry from the families of the Hillsbrough disaster

You're probably right about the outcry - and as someone who was at Hillsborough on that terrible day I can understand why that would be the case - but there's nothing wrong with having the debate. Speaking personally, I'm at a stage now where I prefer a comfortable seat to watch my football but I grew up on the terracings - including many a game on the old Spion Kop at Liverpool with something like 27,000 bodies squeezed in - and there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the atmosphere in the standing days was far, far better. Hillsborough didn't happen just because the fans were standing but believe me I can understand why anybody that experienced that day or was connected to anybody that did would be totally against the return of terracing.

That said, I believe that safe terracing - by that I mean with barriers, controlled capacity, etc - would be great for the game, especially if it allowed for cheaper prices for those who chose to stand. But it ain't going to happen - purely on a financial basis. People keep citing the case of Germany where some top clubs can convert areas of their stadiums from seating to terracing & vice versa. At the time their stadiums were remodelled - for the 2006 World Cup (I think) - some stands were built that way. My understanding is that there are specific engineering requirements to allow a stand to cope with standing spectators - i.e. potentially jumping up & down etc - as opposed to occassional standing up in a seated area. The stands that have built in England & Scotland post-Hillsborough have not been designed or built that way. Its not just a case of taking the seats out & putting barriers in. Whole stands would have to be rebuilt. I just can't see that happening for existing grounds.

Nothing wrong with having the debate though & if the demand is there then no reason why safe terracing couldn't be considered for new stands or stadiums I feel.

The old cynic in me just can't see clubs with an existing seating stand investing in a new terracing area where the club would charge less for admission.......

[green&left]

You're probably right about the outcry - and as someone who was at Hillsborough on that terrible day I can understand why that would be the case - but there's nothing wrong with having the debate. Speaking personally, I'm at a stage now where I prefer a comfortable seat to watch my football but I grew up on the terracings - including many a game on the old Spion Kop at Liverpool with something like 27,000 bodies squeezed in - and there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the atmosphere in the standing days was far, far better. Hillsborough didn't happen just because the fans were standing but believe me I can understand why anybody that experienced that day or was connected to anybody that did would be totally against the return of terracing.

That said, I believe that safe terracing - by that I mean with barriers, controlled capacity, etc - would be great for the game, especially if it allowed for cheaper prices for those who chose to stand. But it ain't going to happen - purely on a financial basis. People keep citing the case of Germany where some top clubs can convert areas of their stadiums from seating to terracing & vice versa. At the time their stadiums were remodelled - for the 2006 World Cup (I think) - some stands were built that way. My understanding is that there are specific engineering requirements to allow a stand to cope with standing spectators - i.e. potentially jumping up & down etc - as opposed to occassional standing up in a seated area. The stands that have built in England & Scotland post-Hillsborough have not been designed or built that way. Its not just a case of taking the seats out & putting barriers in. Whole stands would have to be rebuilt. I just can't see that happening for existing grounds.

Nothing wrong with having the debate though & if the demand is there then no reason why safe terracing couldn't be considered for new stands or stadiums I feel.

The old cynic in me just can't see clubs with an existing seating stand investing in a new terracing area where the club would charge less for admission.......

Stadiums only need to be altered if they are having actual terracing with crush barriers as there is a maximum gradient, then you need to make sure you have enough fire exits etc with the increased capacity.

Alot of German clubs use the 'combi seat' method were you are effectively just installing a barrier on every row (Example's here > http://safestanding.nsbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/option3.jpg) and fans just stand in front of their seat. No increase in capacity so no structural changes required.

Hillsborough was terrible but using that as an excuse to ban standing at the football is poor IMO. First off all it wasn't standing that caused the disaster, more-so the design (the tunnel/fences) and piss poor policing and police decisions. Did they ban flights after plane crashes? No, they look to see what the problem is and using modern day technologies and techniques sort these things out to make them as safe as possible. Just what the Germans done with terracing. Meanwhile over here we're still living in the dark ages...

[Pretty Boy]

Stadiums only need to be altered if they are having actual terracing with crush barriers as there is a maximum gradient, then you need to make sure you have enough fire exits etc with the increased capacity.

Alot of German clubs use the 'combi seat' method were you are effectively just installing a barrier on every row (Example's here > http://safestanding.nsbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/option3.jpg) and fans just stand in front of their seat. No increase in capacity so no structural changes required.

Hillsborough was terrible but using that as an excuse to ban standing at the football is poor IMO. First off all it wasn't standing that caused the disaster, more-so the design (the tunnel/fences) and piss poor policing and police decisions. Did they ban flights are plane crashes? No, they look to see what the problem is and using modern day technologies and techniques sort these things out to make them as safe as possible. Just what the Germans done with terracing. Meanwhile over here we're still living in the dark ages...

Agree with the part in bold especially.

I can totally sympathise with the view of Hillsborough families support groups and anyone else who seen such terrile events that standing at the football should never be reintroduced.

However i think when you actually remove the natural emotions that surround such events it becomes clear that the terraces of the dark ages past and modern day standing areas are 2 completely different issues. Safe standing has been proven to work in several countries, most notably Germany. With adeqaute exit points, fit for purpose crush barriers and decent policing and stewarding there is no reason that standing can't be as safe as sitting. Indeed i would argue that the current set up means that those who choose t stand in a seated stadium are in more danger than if we had a small section set aside that was designed for standing. I don't think anyone is proposing that we got to all standing stadiums, this has rarely been the case at any point in time, so those who wanted to sit could still do so.

Hillsborough was a tragic event but it's worth remembering that the fact people were standing was not the key cause. High fences that penned human beings in like animals, poor ground design and terrible policing and inadequate ambulance service cover were all much bigger reasons. Lessons should have been learned and with the correct measure in place we could reintroduce standing without fear of such an event occuring again.

[Beefster]

Stadiums only need to be altered if they are having actual terracing with crush barriers as there is a maximum gradient, then you need to make sure you have enough fire exits etc with the increased capacity.

Alot of German clubs use the 'combi seat' method were you are effectively just installing a barrier on every row (Example's here > http://safestanding.nsbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/option3.jpg) and fans just stand in front of their seat. No increase in capacity so no structural changes required.

Hillsborough was terrible but using that as an excuse to ban standing at the football is poor IMO. First off all it wasn't standing that caused the disaster, more-so the design (the tunnel/fences) and piss poor policing and police decisions. Did they ban flights after plane crashes? No, they look to see what the problem is and using modern day technologies and techniques sort these things out to make them as safe as possible. Just what the Germans done with terracing. Meanwhile over here we're still living in the dark ages...

I'm not fussed either way about standing (other than it being yet more money spent on the stadium rather than the team) but to say that giving everyone a seat is the 'dark ages' just isn't true.

[.Sean.]

Why are people confusing the ramshackle old terraces of yesteryear with the modern, safe standing areas? They're two completely different things.

[Sir David Gray]

I don't see why there can't be an unofficial area set aside in grounds for fans who wish to stand and the stewards and police can turn a blind eye to the standing in those sections.

That's, by and large, what happens now in the singing section of the East Stand, but for a few exceptions where one or two stewards are a bit over zealous.

Standing should be clamped down on in other areas of a stadium because it's obviously ignorant to stand in front of people who are sitting down but there's clearly a number of football fans who enjoy standing during games and I don't see why they can't be accommodated in their own little section.

[Green_one]

Sorry, Hillsborough is relevant as it was the disaster that moved us towards the all seating stadia that we now have.

And crushing was the major problem at Hillsborough as this was what caused the deaths. The dynamics of standing spectators contributed to that. The reality is that standing areas are always more dangerous than seating. If someone can point me at a major incident when people were crushed sitting down then I will be amazed, though leaving football grounds remains an issue in either set up.

H&S rules these days and I await the debate about how this will work but I find it all a bit contradictory. In the old days fans were packed in, creating more capacity and sometimes more atmosphere. What is being suggested by many, because of the safety angle, means sparcely populated terracing and no capacity benefit. Nothing there for the clubs and the atmosphere will be much the same. People have also forgotten the disbenefits of standing, particularly the simple requirement for everyone being able to see and the easier crowd control. Not so great if you are a child or woman perhaps. Most grounds that I was at when I was young struggled to cope with capacity crowds and standing in them could be a challenge. Hampden was frequently an accident waiting to happen, with late arriving fans simply pushed into already crowded upper terracing areas. Fans also tended to move out of the terracing a lot quicker at the end of the game.

I really do not care if standing returns or not, as long as I am not forced to stand. I certainly never want to see anything remotely like Hillsborough again. I fail to see the advantages of taking that risk, however remote.

[DC_Hibs]

If someone can point me at a major incident when people were crushed sitting down then I will be amazed, though leaving football grounds remains an issue in either set up.

What about when that souped up Celtic fan fell from the top tier and took out 15 smellies below him?

They looked a right state........and then some fat cant fell on top of them


Standing section - not for me thanks
Standing section - choice should be there for others
chance of it happening in next 5 years - 1%
marks for effort for those banging on about this for many years now - 90%

[SmokieJoe]

You all might be interested to know that there's a Bill going through the Westminster Parliament just now aimed at introducing safe standing to football down there. More info here http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/safestandingfootballstadia.html

It would seem from that it would be upto the Scottish Parliament to introduce similar legislation in Scotland. I’ve recently written to one of my MSPs, Margo MacDonald, asking her to take up the case for the Scottish supporters.

All you folk that want safe standing introduced to Scottish football should do the same.

If anyone is looking in who normally post on other clubs forums feel free to pass this on – the close season is a time for peace and harmony. :greengrin

Here’s a copy of my letter to give you a clue what to do!




To this day it still feels alien to sit (for longer than 5 mins) at a game at ER.

In my humble opinion, since all seated games the on the pitch seems to have lost the passion also.