Where is Scottish football going? What are Hibs options?

[Hibbyradge]

I'm struggling to see a way forward for Hibs.

Our league is becoming more and more undermined by the money in England and the standards are worsening, season upon season, as a result.

My views on the effect of the Old Firm leaving are well documented. The TV cash would dry up and sponsors would lose interest. Even if I'm wrong about that, the chances of them ever being wanted by the FA are slim or non-existant, so it won't happen.

A lot of people, including myself, fancy the idea of a British League, but again, why would the English FA, or their clubs, want us? There is also opposition to anything which remotely smacks of coperation with England because of the possible harm to our National status and xenophobia. Again, it won't happen.

So what other options have we got?

Mergers?

[MyJo]

I'm struggling to see a way forward for Hibs.

Our league is becoming more and more undermined by the money in England and the standards are worsening, season upon season as a result.

My views on the effect of the Old Firm leaving are well documented. The TV cash would dry up and sponsirs would lose interest. Even if I'm wrong about that, the chances of them ever being wanted by the FA are slim or non-existant, so it won't happen.

A lot of people, including myself, fancy the idea of a British League, but again, why would the English FA, or their clubs, want us? There is also opposition to anything which remotely smacks of coperation with England because of the possible harm to our National status and xenophobia. Again, it won't happen.

So what other options have we got?

Mergers?

league reconstruction and a fairer share of revenues between clubs rather than it being weighted in favour of having a two team show from here to eternity.

I wouldn't be against a british league with teams from the SPL and 1st division joining the english set up and having a regionalised scottish "conference" division for the smaller clubs.

[bobbyhibs1983]

league reconstruction and a fairer share of revenues between clubs rather than it being weighted in favour of having a two team show from here to eternity.



See i dont understand why we ,as in hibs and other spl clubs accept this.Now finishing x postion, it deepnmds on how many point you pick up and is widely accepted, you get x for 1st y for 2nd and z for 3rd and so on.
Now tv money i beleive it is given mostly(not sure of the amount) to celtic and rangers. and the rest is divided up for the other 10.
Now my question is,Why can't the other 10teams so ok, is the tv deal is worth say 5million a year(Just an example here) why cant that 5million be divieded 12 ways?

i sorta understand viewers figure will be higher, but is 10clubs all got togehter and say ok we dont accept the tv deal, what can the old firm do?

I know sounds silly but if the clubs dont make a stand and stand up for themselfs then i can see the old firm maybe trying to get more and more of the share

[Beefster]

See i dont understand why we ,as in hibs and other spl clubs accept this.Now finishing x postion, it deepnmds on how many point you pick up and is widely accepted, you get x for 1st y for 2nd and z for 3rd and so on.
Now tv money i beleive it is given mostly(not sure of the amount) to celtic and rangers. and the rest is divided up for the other 10.
Now my question is,Why can't the other 10teams so ok, is the tv deal is worth say 5million a year(Just an example here) why cant that 5million be divieded 12 ways?

i sorta understand viewers figure will be higher, but is 10clubs all got togehter and say ok we dont accept the tv deal, what can the old firm do?

I know sounds silly but if the clubs dont make a stand and stand up for themselfs then i can see the old firm maybe trying to get more and more of the share

Aside from the fact that any SPL change needs an 11-1 majority, doing that would likely lead to each club having to make their own individual TV deals. Result - Rangers and Celtic get exactly what they want and the gulf in TV money becomes even larger.

[bobbyhibs1983]

Aside from the fact that any SPL change needs an 11-1 majority, doing that would likely lead to each club having to make their own individual TV deals. Result - Rangers and Celtic get exactly what they want and the gulf in TV money becomes even larger.

Nods, ye i recall something like a vote of something like that, but didn't know the number, in this case 11-1.

I just find it annoying that the old firm just get what they want and it seems the other clubs cant do nothing bout it.

[ScottB]

Aside from the fact that any SPL change needs an 11-1 majority, doing that would likely lead to each club having to make their own individual TV deals. Result - Rangers and Celtic get exactly what they want and the gulf in TV money becomes even larger.

When the other clubs bottled their breakaway plan they pretty much signaled their desire to live in servitude.

However, sooner or later the Old Firm will have to accept that they aren't going anywhere else...

[steakbake]

Xenophobia has nowt to do with why there wont be a UK league. Reality has everything to do with it. The England national team is as much of a concession by FIFA as Scotland, Wales and NI: none of us are nations in our own right.

I think the logistics of it makes it impossible, not the idea itself.

[Saorsa]

Aside from the fact that any SPL change needs an 11-1 majority, doing that would likely lead to each club having to make their own individual TV deals. Result - Rangers and Celtic get exactly what they want and the gulf in TV money becomes even larger.If the other clubs had stuck together :rolleyes: and gone ahead with resigning from the SPL when they had a chance and started another league who would Celtc or Rongers be playing tae put on their own TV channels?

People keep saying Scottish fitba needs the OF, but the OF need Scottish fitba more, who else would they play? . All it would take is for the other clubs tae stick together :rolleyes:

Too many mealy mouths and bottle merchants though.

[lucky]

If the Old firm leave Scottish football we will end up like the a slightly better off Welsh league. The Old firm account for around 80% of Scottish football fans that attend games. Its fanciful to think we would have a thriving game with out Scotland biggest and most hideous clubs. But unfortunately its true. The best option is for a UK league even if that means Hibs going in the 2nd or 3rd tier.

Scottish football needs more money and the only way the SPL clubs can try compete with the English leagues (forget the EPL) is get get a better TV deal. The TV executives are saying they want more top games for their cash which is what the 10 team league is about. The majority of fans want a 14/16 team league but the money is just not there. As such the league will continue to splutter a long til it dies a slow death. The big clubs of Europe will end up in their own mega rich league. TV will dictate. We will then see more kids in the Barca, Real, Inter Man U, chelsea strips running around Scotland.

[Dr What If?]

To move forward we have to identify the problems. If we simply look at football like any other business and the simple fact is Scottish football is not competing with other forms of recreation, e.g. tv, shops, games, etc.
Hardly surprising though, football in Scotland is designed to destroy its own product. The disparity in resources afforded to the OF was correctly pointed out earlier but let us not forget that the entire SLP exists to hedge the little amount our game does get for the teams in our top league. Div 1, 2, 3 etc. should be creating the players who play in the SPL tomorrow and we should be paying for the privilage to sign them but these teams can't rum accademies or even pay players the wages they would get for doing nothing at a Hibs, Hearts, etc.
The glamour of the English game is a consideration too, look at the stadium Wigan have...compare it to the third best club ground in Scotland, our own Easter Road, we just look like a cheap immitation in comparason.
The SPL should be funding private accademies around the country to feed lower division teams with players. There should be some kind of stadium development fund put in place (again, funded by the SPL) and used to improve grounds around the country, and yes, money has to be spread across all the clubs. Alternatively, dispand the SPL and beg to rejoin the Scottish league - if they'll have us after the way we and the other so called big clubs have properly screwed them.

[Springbank]

anything that gives a quick fix, but at the cost of losing our national team forever (or until a political referendum can rectify matters…and it most certainly would be more likely to, in those circumstances) is a suggestion which looks to me like this:
it knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[Beefster]

If the other clubs had stuck together :rolleyes: and gone ahead with resigning from the SPL when they had a chance and started another league who would Celtc or Rongers be playing tae put on their own TV channels?

People keep saying Scottish fitba needs the OF, but the OF need Scottish fitba more, who else would they play? . All it would take is for the other clubs tae stick together :rolleyes:

Too many mealy mouths and bottle merchants though.

I'm not sure why you quoted me. I was talking about the TV deal as it stands and whether we could start making demands about TV cash - not whether the clubs were right to not break away.

For all this talk of "let's stick together against them", Hibs are standing shoulder to shoulder with Celtic and Rangers (and Aberdeen) against the rest of the SPL in the league reconstruction farce. Folk like to think that there is this natural coalition against the OF (as far as the clubs are involved). There isn't.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

It is one thing to talk of mergers, but it is another thing to decide which of the clubs should merge. For all people point to the smaller clubs in leagues two and three and say that some of them should merge, I think that it is true that those teams are not where the debt lies. I have no doubt that if East Fife, Raith and Cowden merged with the Pars as a Fife United, they would play in black and white stripes at EEP, and the other team's property asset stripped and sold. That would be competition elimination.

[IWasThere2016]

If the other clubs had stuck together :rolleyes: and gone ahead with resigning from the SPL when they had a chance and started another league who would Celtc or Rongers be playing tae put on their own TV channels?

People keep saying Scottish fitba needs the OF, but the OF need Scottish fitba more, who else would they play? . All it would take is for the other clubs tae stick together :rolleyes:

Too many mealy mouths and bottle merchants though.

:agree: There needs to be genuine competition - and that means no OF - to enthuse the fans again. Otherwise the Scottish game will continue the path it is own of dying a slow and painful death.

The only option is to remove the OF or their unfair share of revenues. Talk of a British League is a non-starter the English PL/Championship don't need us.

[Hibbyradge]

:agree: There needs to be genuine competition - and that means no OF - to enthuse the fans again. Otherwise the Scottish game will continue the path it is own of dying a slow and painful death.

The only option is to remove the OF or their unfair share of revenues. Talk of a British League is a non-starter the English PL/Championship don't need us.

The Old Firm won't leave the money behind. It will go with them.

Yes, there may be a more equal share of what's left, but what's left will be a pittance.

[IWasThere2016]

The Old Firm won't leave the money behind. It will go with them.

Yes, there may be a more equal share of what's left, but what's left will be a pittance.

Then the game will adapt. That may be at a lower level but it will end up there anyway with the OF sucking it dry.

I'd rather be in control personally .. Than at the mercy of the OF

[James70]

If the unlikely was to happen and the OF were to leave and join the English set-up then surely that would set a precedent and it would be easier for other Scottish clubs like ourselves, Hearts, Aberdeen and possibly Dundee Utd to do likewise.

[hibs0666]

I'm struggling to see a way forward for Hibs.

Our league is becoming more and more undermined by the money in England and the standards are worsening, season upon season, as a result.

My views on the effect of the Old Firm leaving are well documented. The TV cash would dry up and sponsors would lose interest. Even if I'm wrong about that, the chances of them ever being wanted by the FA are slim or non-existant, so it won't happen.

A lot of people, including myself, fancy the idea of a British League, but again, why would the English FA, or their clubs, want us? There is also opposition to anything which remotely smacks of coperation with England because of the possible harm to our National status and xenophobia. Again, it won't happen.

So what other options have we got?

Mergers?

We need to take the English competition aspect away - I agree wholeheartedly that is killing us.

The answer? Summer football.

[marinello59]

We need to take the English competition aspect away - I agree wholeheartedly that is killing us.

The answer? Summer football.

Beat me to it. That would give us our own niche TV market as well.

[Hibbyradge]

Then the game will adapt. That may be at a lower level but it will end up there anyway with the OF sucking it dry.

I'd rather be in control personally .. Than at the mercy of the OF

Well, as I said, that isn't going to happen.

However, the fact is that the Old Firm would suck the money out of Scotland whether they were in the SPL or elsewhere. If they were in the EPL, the SPL would become irrelevant to the media, and therefore the public, in its own country.

I haven't renewed this season cos the standard is so poor. I'm certainly not the only one fed up with Scottish football. Loads of Jambos I know have stopped going and I'm sure the same is replicated with clubs up and down the country.

I can't imagine ever wanting to pay to watch Scottish football again if 80% of the money goes west and the standard goes through the floor.

[marinello59]

If the other clubs had stuck together :rolleyes: and gone ahead with resigning from the SPL when they had a chance and started another league who would Celtc or Rongers be playing tae put on their own TV channels?

People keep saying Scottish fitba needs the OF, but the OF need Scottish fitba more, who else would they play? . All it would take is for the other clubs tae stick together :rolleyes:

Too many mealy mouths and bottle merchants though.

I agree. Too many bottle merchants who feel that as we can't currently compete with the Old Firm we never will. However rather than adopt a long term strategy to actually take them on they concede defeat and suggest we wave them goodbye. It beggars belief that people can actually argue that the only way to strengthen our league is to remove the two strongest teams in it. How meaningless would it be to be crowned Scottish champions when the best two teams in Scotland don't even play here? It's a craven acceptance that we are second rate and always will be. Stuff that.

[Luna_Asylum]

does anybody know how or why the 11-1 rule came about?

[Beefster]

does anybody know how or why the 11-1 rule came about?

More or less to stop change that everyone doesn't agree with, I think.

[Luna_Asylum]

More or less to stop change that everyone doesn't agree with, I think.

thank you - thats most likely the why but the how?

[hibs0666]

Beat me to it. That would give us our own niche TV market as well.

It gives us our own niche and also allows means that the exciting parts of the season occur when during the English mid-season.

We also get to football on decent pitches and in short sleeves. Midweek games become much more appealing than a chore on a dark wet night.

What's not to like?

[Bishop Hibee]

We need to take the English competition aspect away - I agree wholeheartedly that is killing us.

The answer? Summer football.


Beat me to it. That would give us our own niche TV market as well.


It gives us our own niche and also allows means that the exciting parts of the season occur when during the English mid-season.

We also get to football on decent pitches and in short sleeves. Midweek games become much more appealing than a chore on a dark wet night.

What's not to like?

Reasons against summer football:

1) Summer is when people go on holiday/weekends/days away with family and friends. Will fans buy an ST if they know they will miss home games? I wouldn't

2) There are only about 5 weeks of a close season between the end of internationals and the start of pre-season friendlies in England and not much more in mainland Europe. I can see a continent's attention turning to the SPL right enough.

3) Winter in Scotland is crap. It would be crapper if I didn't have the football to look forward to in the winter months.

Hibs 'option' is to try to provide the fans with committed entertaining football with a cup final/trophy and/or a league position that gives us European football every so often. Something we will NEVER have again in a mythical British league.

The end-game for football in Europe is a European League with lesser teams in countries around Europe playing in domestic leagues and a Europa League style European competition.

All in my humble opinion of course :greengrin

[cad]

We need to take the English competition aspect away - I agree wholeheartedly that is killing us.

The answer? Summer football.




Summer footballs the answer ,but keeping the players honed for our European games will make it an awfi long season ,once we get through a few rounds likes .

[Luna_Asylum]

also does anyone know why the chief execs of both the sfa and spl are both non scots?

[hibs0666]

Reasons against summer football:

1) Summer is when people go on holiday/weekends/days away with family and friends. Will fans buy an ST if they know they will miss home games? I wouldn't

People go on away holiday all year round, not just the summer months.


2) There are only about 5 weeks of a close season between the end of internationals and the start of pre-season friendlies in England and not much more in mainland Europe. I can see a continent's attention turning to the SPL right enough.

It is not about getting some bloke in Belgium to watch the SPL while munching through their moules and frites, it's about ensuring Scottish people to maintin interest in their home league.


3) Winter in Scotland is crap. It would be crapper if I didn't have the football to look forward to in the winter months.

Summer in Scotland is OK. It would be fantastic if there was football to watch! And, if you want to watch a match in the bleak midwinter, the Premiership is just down the road in a boozer near you. :wink:

[marinello59]

also does anyone know why the chief execs of both the sfa and spl are both non scots?

Don't know and don't think their nationality really matters. Does it?:confused:

[Luna_Asylum]

Don't know and dont' think their nationality really matters. Does it?:confused:

I would rather have thought local knowledge was somewhat important.
Do other countries appoint people from outside to run both or either their leagues and football associations.

[marinello59]

I would rather have thought local knowledge was somewhat important.
Do other countries appoint people from outside to run both or either their leagues and football associations.

When we welcome non Scots players, coaches and managers it seems logical that we may also have non Scots administrators. I really don't get your point here. Does any business in Scotland restrict itself to appointing Scots only?

[Jonnyboy]

I would rather have thought local knowledge was somewhat important.
Do other countries appoint people from outside to run both or either their leagues and football associations.

Don't see the problem LA. It's little different from top English clubs employing managers from Scotland, Italy, France etc

[Luna_Asylum]

Don't see the problem LA. It's little different from top English clubs employing managers from Scotland, Italy, France etc

If everything was running swimmingly well in either the league or international setup I would not see a problem either. Are you comparing the relative qualities of our administrators against Ferguson Wenger Angeloti & Mancini? These guys earned their positions by performance in their home countries before stepping up.
The same is sadly not true for Regan/Doncaster and so I think your comparison is unfair.

[Luna_Asylum]

When we welcome non Scots it seems logical that we may also have non Scots administrators. I really don't get your point here. Does any business in Scotland restrict itself to appointing Scots only?

While it's surely true that all countries "welcome" non nationals as players, coaches and managers I am not aware that other countries "welcome" administrators also to their top 2 chief exec positions anyhow. Perhaps they do but I would imagine they would have had a successful track record in the same or similar role prior to their appointment.

[marinello59]

While it's surely true that all countries "welcome" non nationals as players, coaches and managers I am not aware that other countries "welcome" administrators also to their top 2 chief exec positions anyhow. Perhaps they do but I would imagine they would have had a successful track record in the same or similar role prior to their appointment.

Does that criteria apply to non-Scots only then? :confused: I would hate to think that any Scottish business operating in an international market place would be so insular and backward looking to operate a restrictive recruitment policy based on nationality. Sorry, I still don't get what your point is.

[PaulSmith]

If everything was running swimmingly well in either the league or international setup I would not see a problem either. Are you comparing the relative qualities of our administrators against Ferguson Wenger Angeloti & Mancini? These guys earned their positions by performance in their home countries before stepping up.
The same is sadly not true for Regan/Doncaster and so I think your comparison is unfair.

To be fair Regan and Doncaster have came into the situation rather than bringing it about.
At least they are pushing through change whether the old duffers from the South of Scotland or Highland leagues will vote a change is still unknown

[Luna_Asylum]

Does that criteria apply to non-Scots only then? :confused: I would hate to think that any Scottish business operating in an international market place would be so insular and backward looking to operate a restrictive recruitment policy based on nationality. Sorry, I still don't get what your point is.

I shouldn't worry about it - you win.

What does interest me is the history of the 11-1 vote.

I have found the following but it doesn't explain the full history. Someone must know how it all came about.

Any change to the size in the top flight, whether an expansion or reduction, requires a 10-2 majority, ie 83 per cent. Any change to the distribution of income needs an 11-1 vote (92 per cent). Most other resolutions, such as an earlier start to the season, play-offs and winter shut-down, can be passed with 67 per cent backing, an 8-4 majority.
The system is a legacy of the SPL's formation and Celtic and Rangers used it most notoriously in 2003 to vote against proposals for SPL TV.

[Luna_Asylum]

To be fair Regan and Doncaster have came into the situation rather than bringing it about.
At least they are pushing through change whether the old duffers from the South of Scotland or Highland leagues will vote a change is still unknown

That's true.

[marinello59]

What does interest me is the history of the 11-1 vote.

I have found the following but it doesn't explain the full history. Someone must know how it all came about.

Any change to the size in the top flight, whether an expansion or reduction, requires a 10-2 majority, ie 83 per cent. Any change to the distribution of income needs an 11-1 vote (92 per cent). Most other resolutions, such as an earlier start to the season, play-offs and winter shut-down, can be passed with 67 per cent backing, an 8-4 majority.
The system is a legacy of the SPL's formation and Celtic and Rangers used it most notoriously in 2003 to vote against proposals for SPL TV.


Strange that any other major decision is decided on a 10-2 majority. It is impossible to view it as anything other than a sop to the Old Firm.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Scottish football is going down the pan, don't know what Hibs options are!

[Jonnyboy]

If everything was running swimmingly well in either the league or international setup I would not see a problem either. Are you comparing the relative qualities of our administrators against Ferguson Wenger Angeloti & Mancini? These guys earned their positions by performance in their home countries before stepping up.
The same is sadly not true for Regan/Doncaster and so I think your comparison is unfair.

Don't know their backgrounds in great detail LA but am assuming they have the kind of track record that warrants them getting those posts. I suppose what I mean is that their place of birth should not be relative if they are capable of doing their jobs

[Luna_Asylum]

Don't know their backgrounds in great detail LA but am assuming they have the kind of track record that warrants them getting those posts. I suppose what I mean is that their place of birth should not be relative if they are capable of doing their jobs

Fair do's. Reckon we can we get someone from outside to replace alex salmond :wink:

[Jonnyboy]

Fair do's. Reckon we can we get someone from outside to replace alex salmond :wink:

Well we could borrow Nade's fork lift truck to get him out of his seat I guess :greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

That's true.

There's also the school of thought that they may can look at a problem without any baggage. A fresh set of eyes if you like.

I dont know the history of the 11-1 vote but I know it left the OF (who almost always vote the same way I am told) pretty much in control.

Does it still apply? I thought it had been relaxed to 8-4 or something?

[jdships]

Scottish football is going down the pan, don't know what Hibs options are!

Would agree with both your comments :thumbsup:
Personally I think European football as a whole is coming to a cross roads .
At sometime soon the whole business of football finances/wages /costs will have to be looked at to ensure the game doesn't disappear up its own a,,,,,e
Taking England as an example more and more clubs are being run by multi millionaires, conglomerates etc .
More and more clubs are operating at what appear to be unsustainable financial levels
TV money rules the operating side of the game - witness the number of Sunday/Monday matches we have now .
European football is moving in a direction which will surely, eventually, produce an "Elite" league of probably 16 clubs drawn from around Europe
It is looking very much the case that the " rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer"

Like you I just don't know what Hibs options are . We are in a stable financial position while at the same time we have very limited chances of increasing our turnover dramatically without a huge injection of cash .
The "status quo" looks like the option for the next few years at least

[Kaiser1962]

Like you I just don't know what Hibs options are . We are in a stable financial position while at the same time we have very limited chances of increasing our turnover dramatically without a huge injection of cash .
The "status quo" looks like the option for the next few years at least

Agree with nearly all of that.

The only thing would be that even with a huge injection of cash turnover is not going to increase comparitively. The Yams, and others, are evidence of this.

Football might not be at the crossroads just yet but we are very close. Where a millionaire businessman used to be able to get a team success it's increasingly become a toy for billionaires.

What I would hate is that we used all our money from sales to clear our debt and somehow everybody else got there's wiped to make a fresh start.

That would really piss me off!!!!

[jdships]

Agree with nearly all of that.

The only thing would be that even with a huge injection of cash turnover is not going to increase comparitively. The Yams, and others, are evidence of this.

Football might not be at the crossroads just yet but we are very close. Where a millionaire businessman used to be able to get a team success it's increasingly become a toy for billionaires.

What I would hate is that we used all our money from sales to clear our debt and somehow everybody else got there's wiped to make a fresh start.

That would really piss me off!!!!


:agree::thumbsup:

[Beefster]

Strange that any other major decision is decided on a 10-2 majority. It is impossible to view it as anything other than a sop to the Old Firm.

Early in the SPL, everything had to have an 11-1 majority. It was only after the 'Ten' threatened to breakaway in the early 2000's that the differing majorities were brought in as a sop to the 'Ten' in order to avert the breakaway.

I think.

[ScottB]

Beat me to it. That would give us our own niche TV market as well.

Would it?

Only in the summers there are no tournaments, and even then, it assumes people elsewhere will want to watch the SPL. Just because there's no football, doesn't mean folk will watch anything.

How will Summer football actually work? Presumably we'd have to have big shut downs every 2 years?

[MyJo]

How will Summer football actually work? Presumably we'd have to have big shut downs every 2 years?

run the season from february to October and restructure the league cup to be a champions league format competition with teams having to use players aged 23 or under and play these games during June/July so that when there are major tournaments the league is effectively suspended for 4 or 5 weeks and the games in the cup are using younger players who wouldn't be going to the world cup/euro championships anyway

[ScottB]

run the season from february to October and restructure the league cup to be a champions league format competition with teams having to use players aged 23 or under and play these games during June/July so that when there are major tournaments the league is effectively suspended for 4 or 5 weeks and the games in the cup are using younger players who wouldn't be going to the world cup/euro championships anyway

Isn't there rules about running top level games during major events? Such as UEFA's rules about the Champions League?

[Top Pans Hibby]

I think it is now up to Scottish Football to create and control its own destiny. As a starter for 10, isn't it about time that the SPL and the Scottish international team investigated the feasibility of setting up their own dedicated satellite channel whereby the Scottish Football authorities controlled their own product?

I feel we now have an opportunity for Scottish Football to really work together for the betterment of the whole game. When Setanta still existed I subscribed because I was able to watch Scottish football (as well as a bit of the EPL and Racing UK for that matter). However, I also subscribed knowing that Hibs were getting a cut of the (fairly substantial) revenues.

Surely we must try and grasp such an opportunity again, but this time the channel must be run by Scottish Football for Scottish Football.

The distribution of revenues must be fair for all SPL clubs, but we cannot ignore the fact that the revenue split would have to reflect the "pull" of the OF. Indeed, the OF would be used as a carrot to "sell" the league outwith the normal Scottish audience.

Agreement should be sought that a significant segment of the revenue stream be invested in youth football and academies of excellence. Reserve football should be restored and funded in order to blood young talent

Whilst the English premiership has been great to watch over the last 20 years or so it is fair to say that there seems to be may English clubs about to implode despite the billions of pounds coming their ways. I am sure that I read recently that something like 70 - 80% of TV revenues leave English football immediately i.e. to a number of mediocre foreign players. Unfortunately it would appear that English football has not taken advantage of investing in it's own home bred talent - look no further than the last world cup.

If the likes of Liverpool TV and MUFC TV can survive then surely a Scottish Footbal channel can thrive. However, it would take a good piece of goodwill from a number of parties, the OF, the SPL, SFA AND ULTIMATELY THE SUPPORTERS.

The product may need to be "enhanced" in order that a satellite package would be deemed as a viable option for fans across the country. Whilst it may be unpalatable to a number of dedicated football fans perhaps the lure of the channel could be widened to Scottish sport as a whole e.g. rugby, golf, ice hockey, racing etc etc.

Perhaps deals could be done with existing Season Ticket holders??

There are obviously an infinite number of options and possibilities but surely the time has come for those in authority to seriously invest in, and explore this feasibilty further. Whilst finances will ultimately determine the viabilty of such a venture, surely the least Scottish football can do is to explore this option.

Can things be any worse for the game at the moment?

GGTTH

[ScottB]

I think it is now up to Scottish Football to create and control its own destiny. As a starter for 10, isn't it about time that the SPL and the Scottish international team investigated the feasibility of setting up their own dedicated satellite channel whereby the Scottish Football authorities controlled their own product?

I feel we now have an opportunity for Scottish Football to really work together for the betterment of the whole game. When Setanta still existed I subscribed because I was able to watch Scottish football (as well as a bit of the EPL and Racing UK for that matter). However, I also subscribed knowing that Hibs were getting a cut of the (fairly substantial) revenues.

Surely we must try and grasp such an opportunity again, but this time the channel must be run by Scottish Football for Scottish Football.

The distribution of revenues must be fair for all SPL clubs, but we cannot ignore the fact that the revenue split would have to reflect the "pull" of the OF. Indeed, the OF would be used as a carrot to "sell" the league outwith the normal Scottish audience.

Agreement should be sought that a significant segment of the revenue stream be invested in youth football and academies of excellence. Reserve football should be restored and funded in order to blood young talent

Whilst the English premiership has been great to watch over the last 20 years or so it is fair to say that there seems to be may English clubs about to implode despite the billions of pounds coming their ways. I am sure that I read recently that something like 70 - 80% of TV revenues leave English football immediately i.e. to a number of mediocre foreign players. Unfortunately it would appear that English football has not taken advantage of investing in it's own home bred talent - look no further than the last world cup.

If the likes of Liverpool TV and MUFC TV can survive then surely a Scottish Footbal channel can thrive. However, it would take a good piece of goodwill from a number of parties, the OF, the SPL, SFA AND ULTIMATELY THE SUPPORTERS.

The product may need to be "enhanced" in order that a satellite package would be deemed as a viable option for fans across the country. Whilst it may be unpalatable to a number of dedicated football fans perhaps the lure of the channel could be widened to Scottish sport as a whole e.g. rugby, golf, ice hockey, racing etc etc.

Perhaps deals could be done with existing Season Ticket holders??

There are obviously an infinite number of options and possibilities but surely the time has come for those in authority to seriously invest in, and explore this feasibilty further. Whilst finances will ultimately determine the viabilty of such a venture, surely the least Scottish football can do is to explore this option.

Can things be any worse for the game at the moment?

GGTTH

UEFA sells all international rights together now, hence the SFA are getting more money than they did before.

As for MUTV, well Man Utd probably have more fans ready to put their hands in their pockets that the population of Scotland. Whether SPL TV would make more money than our current deal or not I don't know, but it was considered again post Setanta collapse and it came to nothing. I suspect if they were certain it was worth more, they'd have gone ahead with it...

[Luna_Asylum]

Don't know their backgrounds in great detail LA but am assuming they have the kind of track record that warrants them getting those posts. I suppose what I mean is that their place of birth should not be relative if they are capable of doing their jobs

Prior to working for the sfa Stewart Regan worked in the brewing industry for 16 years then for 4 years for Yorkshire County Cricket Club.

Neil Doncaster worked for Norwich City for 12 years becoming chief exec and was sacked in 2009.

Suitable track records?

[GreenCastle]

It's a good question - and a serious one also.

The game is in turmoil in Scotland - last season was a prime example how bad things are both on the pitch and off it. Numerous incidents like the ref strike, Lennon being attacked - continued sectarian singing etc etc.

If I was in charge of football in Scotland you need to start with a few basics.

Sort out the product on the park -

Make the league competitive and split the TV money / prize money more evenly to reduce the massive gap between the top 2 and rest of the league.

Make the league system a pyramid - so lower teams have something to aim for.

Have one pathway / group of people in charge and take away the Glasgow / Old Firm bias.

The product on the park must be value for money - right now it's not - paying EPL prices for SPL quality.

They need to entice supporters back into the stadiums and make the game competitive / exciting to attend again.

I could go on but that's just a basic starter.....the generation of people currently who have been brought up with old firm dominance are giving up on the game and not going - the game in Scotland will continue to get weaker until something dramatically is changed.

[Beefster]

Prior to working for the sfa Stewart Regan worked in the brewing industry for 16 years then for 4 years for Yorkshire County Cricket Club.

Neil Doncaster worked for Norwich City for 12 years becoming chief exec and was sacked in 2009.

Suitable track records?

I know that you are trying to push an agenda but this isn't strictly true. He resigned after Norwich were relegated. A simple search of Google will confirm this.

What track record would you expect for a sporting CEO? Someone who came through the ranks at the SFA? An ex-agent? An ex-player?

[Luna_Asylum]

I know that you are trying to push an agenda but this isn't strictly true. He resigned after Norwich were relegated. A simple search of Google will confirm this.

What track record would you expect for a sporting CEO? Someone who came through the ranks at the SFA? An ex-agent? An ex-player?

Point taken.

Mixu resigned as Hibs manager also

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hibernian/5408828/Mixu-Paatelainen-resigns-as-Hibs-manager.html

as did John Hughes

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/hibernian/200891-john-hughes-hibs-timeline/

A track record for chief of the SFA would include having worked in either scotland or in football perhaps?

And the main reason for disliking him - or pushing an agenda - is that he is another advocate of a 10 team league which means he is not intererested in what the majority of fans want. As that cos he's an OF lacky or he doesn't know what the fans want or simply doesn't care!

[NAE NOOKIE]

Well, as I said, that isn't going to happen.

However, the fact is that the Old Firm would suck the money out of Scotland whether they were in the SPL or elsewhere. If they were in the EPL, the SPL would become irrelevant to the media, and therefore the public, in its own country.

I haven't renewed this season cos the standard is so poor. I'm certainly not the only one fed up with Scottish football. Loads of Jambos I know have stopped going and I'm sure the same is replicated with clubs up and down the country.

I can't imagine ever wanting to pay to watch Scottish football again if 80% of the money goes west and the standard goes through the floor.

The inescapable fact is then that if folk stop going coz of whats being served up now then there will be less money in the game and the standard will get even worse. That means even less folk going and Abra Cadabra .... Welsh League.

If you aint part of the solution you are part of the problem.

[jdships]

The inescapable fact is then that if folk stop going coz of whats being served up now then there will be less money in the game and the standard will get even worse. That means even less folk going and Abra Cadabra .... Welsh League.

If you aint part of the solution you are part of the problem.


Agree totally with the highlighted part of your post
The whole scenario as it stands is lose/lose !!!!
However !
Football is part of the entertainment business and regardless who/what you are if the paying public doesn't think they are getting value for money/ being entertained they stop attending matches/concerts , buying records/books etc .
Which is their right after all !
Somehow Scottish football has to rebrand itself without the threat of being "screwed" by the OF.

Unfortunately I can't see the SFA/SPL having the "balls" to do that

:confused:

[NAE NOOKIE]

SPL games on SKY and ESPN are shown in England and I am pretty sure that apart from the OF games the audience down south is pretty average ( or lets face it, probably rubbish ) in comparison with EPL and Championship games.

However, EPL and Championship games shown up here are probably watched by most Scottish SKY sports subscribers. Lets face it, its why most Scots subscribe.

If that is the case how much revenue would SKY / ESPN stand to lose if Scottish Football refused to allow English games to be shown north of the border. Which they are perfectly entitled to do by the way.

If they gave the Scottish game nothing, would it save them more than they would lose by not being able to show English, not to mention Spanish, football up here.

It would be interesting to see the figures, and if they did stack up in our favour, would it be good leverage to use to squeeze more ( hopefully a lot more ) cash out of them.

Its also interesting for the folk in the game to take note that yet another player leaving the SPL has cited the lack of variety of opposition as at least part of the reason for wanting to go down south. Yet another reason for a 14 or 16 team league, which seems to be ignored by the head in the sand brigade.

[steakbake]

I was with you right up until the word 'brigade'.

[GreenCastle]

Agree totally with the highlighted part of your post
The whole scenario as it stands is lose/lose !!!!
However !
Football is part of the entertainment business and regardless who/what you are if the paying public doesn't think they are getting value for money/ being entertained they stop attending matches/concerts , buying records/books etc .
Which is their right after all !
Somehow Scottish football has to rebrand itself without the threat of being "screwed" by the OF.

Unfortunately I can't see the SFA/SPL having the "balls" to do that

:confused:

The standard of the Old Firm will get even worse :agree: but that may help other teams in the league and make it more competitive. :agree:

I really agree with the part in bold - re-branding is ESSENTIAL soon otherwise like the crowds at ER - it's going to be very hard to get supporters to watch and pay for it when they are spoilt by SKY / ESPN showing English leagues and Spanish Football etc.

I don't expect Scotland to be a top nation in the world of football or be the top league but I expect a competitive league which is exciting and value for money and here it is again....without the huge Old Firm bias - T.V money etc.

This thread can be dug up in about 5 years and many posters have made some good points about the change of the game - can look back and say I told you so...

Just recently this took place - Will this vote affect change ? The new 2020 vision in Scotland ?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scotland/255340-in-detail-what-the-sfa-clubs-are-voting-on/

[Kaiser1962]

I was with you right up until the word 'brigade'.

Thats actually all the way SB :greengrin

[greenlad]

If that is the case how much revenue would SKY / ESPN stand to lose if Scottish Football refused to allow English games to be shown north of the border. Which they are perfectly entitled to do by the way.

If they gave the Scottish game nothing, would it save them more than they would lose by not being able to show English, not to mention Spanish, football up here.

No such rule exists AFAIK. We are a seperate country in a footballing sense from England, but the UK is one single territory as far as broadcasting rights go. Until the early mid-90s the SFL did have power of veto over TV games being on at the same time as domestic fixtures which is why you had such ridiculous cases as Norwich UEFA Cup games vs Bayern and Inter being blocked at 15 mins notice because Montrose were playing East Stirling the same night and they though it would affect the crowd! The veto was ceded about 1994 or 1995 I think.

Basically there is no way you can ban English games from Scottish TV nor should we want to.

[Caversham Green]

As many have already said on this thread the real problem with Scottish football is the complete domination of the Old Firm. A second problem is that the authorities appear to be doing everything they can to avoid addressing or even acknowledging the issue. Celtic and Rangers are probably at saturation point regarding fan numbers - they couldn't really handle any more, while the other clubs struggle to attract supporters because they have no real chance of winning the league. Hearts had a half-hearted tilt at it in 2005/06 and probably gained a reasonable number of fans in the process - unfortunately they had to sell their future to do so.

As much as most of us would like them to, the OF are not going to go away – there is little chance of them going out of business (Rangers current financial problems notwithstanding) and if they moved to another league they would take their fans (and possibly others because they would have more scope to grow in the EPL) with them to the detriment of the Scottish game. So the problem becomes one of accommodating them while trying to give other clubs at least a shout of winning something meaningful. I believe this would also help the OF become more competitive in Europe in the long-term because their domestic games would be that bit more competitive.

IMO none of the proposed league reconstructions will solve this - a larger league/two game set-up would undoubtedly lose money for the game as a whole (although the £20m suggested by Doncaster is ridiculous and indicative of his incompetence) while the 10 team set-up is really just more of the same. A fairer distribution of funds, the sharing of gate money, active promotion of non-OF teams locally and abroad and a less rigged voting system would all help while a more imaginitive league set-up is probably beyond the current lot, given that after all the surveys, inquiries and meetings the 10 team league was the best they could come up with.

There's no easy solution or quick fix, but the first step to finding a solution is to understand the problem and I don't think the authorities are anywhere near doing that at the moment.