Hearts AGM - Scotsman Article 4/6/11

[Gala Foxes]

So the Hearts Board actually think that Edinburgh Council will "gift" the Club land in the West of Edinburgh for them to build a new "Super Stadium"

If we ever wanted an example of how deluded these guys are, not that we would need to look hard for examples in recent years, then here it is. The fact that Hearts think that a Council, that is currently reworking its budget to allow for funding cuts, will gift them land just endorses the fact that they operate with their heads in the sand every now and again coming out with supposedly "exciting" news for those within their support gullible and blinkered enough to believe it. Usually when they are trying to punt season tickets.

Even if they did get the land what building company would enter into a partnership with a club that has a chequered history of paying its dues.

You can't make it up !

[Bishop Hibee]

Article here - http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Hearts-look-to-council-in.6779444.jp

Anti-Hearts bias :faf: Any sniff of the Council helping Hearts out to the detriment of council tax payers should meet with a barrage of protest from all non-yam residents of Edinburgh.

Make no mistake, they are desperate to get out of Tiny and will try to influence the council in any way they can. Given CEC's record on trams etc anything is possible.

Contact your councillors here http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/councillors

[greenginger]

The behavior of Edinburgh City Council towards Hibernian Football Club should not be forgotten.

When the council was selling the old Norton Park school back in 1995 they refused to sell to Hibs a narrow strip of the playground behind the old main stand. This land was essential for the construction of the new West Stand but the Council snubbed Hibs and sold the whole site to Albion Equity Ltd .

Fortunately Hibs were able to strike a deal with Albion for the land and much to the annoyance of certain Councilors and City Officials were able to build the new West.

Hibs were forced to pay Albion Equity Ltd £ 90,000 for 526 squares metres of land in 2000 which I calculate to be just over £750,000 per acre.

Hearts should not be sold the land for a new stadium for anything less than £10 million if parity is to be maintained.

[ScottB]

Presumably this is all a rouse. When the Council doesn't give them the land Vlad can walk away blaming them.

It would be politically untenable for the Council to give away assets in the current climate. Hell, I bet plenty Hearts fans would also disagree with such a move. When people are losing their jobs, schools closing et all they simply could not fork over millions of pounds worth of land.

Even if they did, I still can't see how they could afford to build a new stadium. It all smacks of an exit plan for Vlad to me.

[The Falcon]

Absolutely spot on. You could argue a that this is a precedent and ECC need to maximise revenue, more so at this time, when they are cutting social care budgets for the most vulnerable (Yams excepted).

The fact they appear to have been in "discussions" for some time and the tie up with Murray and Vlad withdrawing players for the Rangers game is also a worry.

Am I paranoid?



The behavior of Edinburgh City Council towards Hibernian Football Club should not be forgotten.

When the council was selling the old Norton Park school back in 1995 they refused to sell to Hibs a narrow strip of the playground behind the old main stand. This land was essential for the construction of the new West Stand but the Council snubbed Hibs and sold the whole site to Albion Equity Ltd .

Fortunately Hibs were able to strike a deal with Albion for the land and much to the annoyance of certain Councilors and City Officials were able to build the new West.

Hibs were forced to pay Albion Equity Ltd £ 90,000 for 526 squares metres of land in 2000 which I calculate to be just over £750,000 per acre.

Hearts should not be sold the land for a new stadium for anything less than £10 million if parity is to be maintained.

[s.a.m]

"Speaking after the meeting, deputy council leader and Hearts season ticket holder Steve Cardownie said: "The council has committed, and will continue to commit, significant resources towards helping the club examine its options for future development."

That's the bit that annoyed me.:grr:

[Kaiser1962]

"Speaking after the meeting, deputy council leader and Hearts season ticket holder Steve Cardownie said: "The council has committed, and will continue to commit, significant resources towards helping the club examine its options for future development."

That's the bit that annoyed me.:grr:

Why are they commiting any resources at all to helping Hearts? Absolute scandal if they are.

[ronaldo7]

"Speaking after the meeting, deputy council leader and Hearts season ticket holder Steve Cardownie said: "The council has committed, and will continue to commit, significant resources towards helping the club examine its options for future development."

That's the bit that annoyed me.:grr:

Maybe it's about time we started asking the council exactly how much these resources are costing the local tax payers.

[sahib]

Article here -

the Council helping Hearts out to the detriment of council tax payers should meet with a barrage of protest from all non-yam residents of Edinburgh.

Contact your councillors here http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/councillors

Would some sort of legal challenge be possible?

Right! I have sent a couple of "Mr Angry of Portobello" emails to a two non SNP councillors in my ward.

[iwasthere1972]

"Speaking after the meeting, deputy council leader and Hearts season ticket holder Steve Cardownie said: "The council has committed, and will continue to commit, significant resources towards helping the club examine its options for future development."

That's the bit that annoyed me.:grr:

The same guy who introduced Vlad to Deans way back in 2004.

There's a whiff in the air and it's not very pleasant. Tynecastlegate.

[Kaiser1962]

Would some sort of legal challenge be possible?

I am sure someone who has had services withdrawn, or that were previously free and now being charged for, for an elderly, sick or disabled family member would be entitled to challenge ECC under "duty of care" legislation*, particularly if vital funds were being diverted elsewhere.

*NHS and Community Care Act 1990
*Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Act 2007

[Hibs Class]

Maybe it's about time we started asking the council exactly how much these resources are costing the local tax payers.

A freedom of information request would be a good start, although this administration does its best to slow down, block or confuse when dealing with such requests.

[Seanair]

What's all this c**p about anti-Hearts bias?

Aitchison (recently departed Chief Executive)---Hearts fan, plus assorted Councillors over the years in Lothian Regional Council and Edinburgh District Council and now CEC.

Pulling together 2 quotes about having a stadium "within walking distance of Tynecastle" and "wanting to own our stadium", it looks like the pitches at Saughton are in danger!

SOS (Save our Saughton), and every other green space they want to get their grubby hands on.:grr:

And where are they going to get the money from to buy their own stadium? Wonga?

[EasterRoad4Ever]

So the Hearts Board actually think that Edinburgh Council will "gift" the Club land in the West of Edinburgh for them to build a new "Super Stadium"

If we ever wanted an example of how deluded these guys are, not that we would need to look hard for examples in recent years, then here it is. The fact that Hearts think that a Council, that is currently reworking its budget to allow for funding cuts, will gift them land just endorses the fact that they operate with their heads in the sand every now and again coming out with supposedly "exciting" news for those within their support gullible and blinkered enough to believe it. Usually when they are trying to punt season tickets.

Even if they did get the land what building company would enter into a partnership with a club that has a chequered history of paying its dues.

You can't make it up !

Fact of the matter is HMFC is nothing more than a private company that is near wholly owned by a foreign national from Lithuania (or Lithuanian Bank). If the council did anything underhand to support this company financially on anything other than full commercial terms, it would be illegal. Given the scandal of expenses of public officials, they would be mad to do anything that did not stand up to full scrutiny.

[PeeKay]

Steve Cardownie said: "The council has committed, and will continue to commit, significant resources towards helping the club examine its options for future development."

What council "resources" could possibly not involve cost to Edinburgh ratepayers? Cardownie needs to be challenged on this.

[The Falcon]

Fact of the matter is HMFC is nothing more than a private company that is near wholly owned by a foreign national from Lithuania (or Lithuanian Bank). If the council did anything underhand to support this company financially on anything other than full commercial terms, it would be illegal. Given the scandal of expenses of public officials, they would be mad to do anything that did not stand up to full scrutiny.

Nobody can argue with this.

But.....it's the Cooncil........

[Gatecrasher]

A freedom of information request would be a good start, although this administration does its best to slow down, block or confuse when dealing with such requests.

in our work FOI requests are to be dealt within 20 working days, thats the law apparently.

[Kaiser1962]

in our work FOI requests are to be dealt within 20 working days, thats the law apparently.

I think its a quality assurance thing but not actually the Law.

Nonetheless if they do not deal with it then they would be in breach of their on standards.

My money's on nothing comes back under "commercial confidentiality" though!!

[Gatecrasher]

I think its a quality assurance thing but not actually the Law.

Nonetheless if they do not deal with it then they would be in breach of their on standards.

My money's on nothing comes back under "commercial confidentiality" though!!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2002/13/section/10

looks like 20 working days to me

[Dashing Bob S]

Steve Cardownie said: "The council has committed, and will continue to commit, significant resources towards helping the club examine its options for future development."

What council "resources" could possibly not involve cost to Edinburgh ratepayers? Cardownie needs to be challenged on this.

To be fair to Steve, he did stipulate that those significant resources could only be deployed if Hearts were to draw a club from the Ukraine on their forthcoming European adventure, thus enabling him to procure a seventh bride from that country.

[Kaiser1962]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2002/13/section/10

looks like 20 working days to me

I stand corrected :greengrin


my money's still on "commercial confidentiality" though :greengrin

[Gatecrasher]

I stand corrected :greengrin


my money's still on "commercial confidentiality" though :greengrin

probably, but i hope in these skint times for us, governments and councils that there is less scope for them to help the tramps

[brog]

Article here - http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Hearts-look-to-council-in.6779444.jp

Anti-Hearts bias :faf: Any sniff of the Council helping Hearts out to the detriment of council tax payers should meet with a barrage of protest from all non-yam residents of Edinburgh.

Make no mistake, they are desperate to get out of Tiny and will try to influence the council in any way they can. Given CEC's record on trams etc anything is possible.

Contact your councillors here http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/councillors

So if Yams can't expand beyond 20,000 due to the distillery having priority, how did they develop a model for a 40,000 capacity stadium & a hotel or has that all been airbrushed into history??
You couldn't make it up.

[iwasthere1972]

So if Yams can't expand beyond 20,000 due to the distillery having priority, how did they develop a model for a 40,000 capacity stadium & a hotel or has that all been airbrushed into history??
You couldn't make it up.

The answer lies somewhere within the 20 boxes of architect drawings and planning applications.

A needle in a haystack.

[BEEJ]

So if Yams can't expand beyond 20,000 due to the distillery having priority, how did they develop a model for a 40,000 capacity stadium & a hotel or has that all been airbrushed into history??
You couldn't make it up.
My thoughts exactly. :agree:

And if the pink palace is not, in fact, a viable long-term option why does it feature in their survey as one?

Yams being strung along, again. :greengrin

[PaulSmith]

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/704/access_to_information

Fill yer boots, they have 20 working days to reply to each request.

Can someone take this on and report back to us fellow tax paying council residents who do not wish for any penny from council funds, gifted or otherwise, to be used to prop up a wholly owned foreign company.

Just on the Sighthill question, I met with two council officials today involved in the Sighthill North development and they advised that there would be no way planning would be given now that the flats are coming down and low cost housing is being built plus the newly refurbished Napier University were given certain guarentees before they choose to stay at Sighthill and they certainly did not include the building of a football stadium on their door step.

[Benny Brazil]

I posted before that I contacted my local councillor a couple of weeks back - here it is again:

Thank you for your email regarding the new stadium proposals reported in the news.

The council as most local authorities do to certain degrees help sports clubs of all sizes as was the case with Boroughmuir Rugby club a few years ago and Spartans FC were also helped to find a new location more recently.

To answer your questions directly; The council are working with Hearts to try to find a suitable location, the council will not help financially and there will be no cost to the tax payer. Any community use will be up to HMFC and not the council as HMFC will own the stadium or will lease it from the owners but the owners will not be the council. As for planning permission any application will have to go through the usual rigorous process as with all other applications.

I hope this has answered your questions but please don't hesitate to contact me if you require further information.

Regards,


The bit in bold for me is key.

[Hibs Class]

in our work FOI requests are to be dealt within 20 working days, thats the law apparently.

That's what should happen. In my experience the council will reply within 20 days but will avoid answering where possible, or will selectively mis-interpret the request. I know it's based on the tone from the top, as I've direct experience of Jenny Dawe intervening and misdirecting the responses.

[Kaiser1962]

I posted before that I contacted my local councillor a couple of weeks back - here it is again:

Thank you for your email regarding the new stadium proposals reported in the news.

The council as most local authorities do to certain degrees help sports clubs of all sizes as was the case with Boroughmuir Rugby club a few years ago and Spartans FC were also helped to find a new location more recently.

To answer your questions directly; The council are working with Hearts to try to find a suitable location, the council will not help financially and there will be no cost to the tax payer. Any community use will be up to HMFC and not the council as HMFC will own the stadium or will lease it from the owners but the owners will not be the council. As for planning permission any application will have to go through the usual rigorous process as with all other applications.

I hope this has answered your questions but please don't hesitate to contact me if you require further information.

Regards,


The bit in bold for me is key.

Not being a resident of Edinburgh can I ask?

I would be interested in knowing if Hearts are paying for the man hours spent "working with Hearts"? If not then ECC is paying and then there is a definite and measurable cost to the taxpayer.

[Liberal Hibby]

Not being a resident of Edinburgh can I ask?

I would be interested in knowing if Hearts are paying for the man hours spent "working with Hearts"? If not then ECC is paying and then there is a definite and measurable cost to the taxpayer.

Sort of. But the Council has planning and economic development departments whose job it is to firstly agree the zoning rules and secondly work with any organisation (even Hearts) who are interested in developing things within these rules.

There's a cost of running these departments - but you can't really run a planning system without them - unless you want some sort of free for all where anyone can build anything on their own land. But it's pretty far fetched to say this is a council tax payer subsidy to Hearts.

Cardownie is a chancer and playing to the Hearts gallery with his comments, but with the lack of public cash at the moment even he would baulk at subsidising the Yams (but a couple of trips to east Europe might be another matter).

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

What team does the First Minister support again ? :wink:

[Springbank]

Sort of. But the Council has planning and economic development departments whose job it is to firstly agree the zoning rules and secondly work with any organisation (even Hearts) who are interested in developing things within these rules.

There's a cost of running these departments - but you can't really run a planning system without them - unless you want some sort of free for all where anyone can build anything on their own land. But it's pretty far fetched to say this is a council tax payer subsidy to Hearts.

Cardownie is a chancer and playing to the Hearts gallery with his comments, but with the lack of public cash at the moment even he would baulk at subsidising the Yams (but a couple of trips to east Europe might be another matter).

This isn't the full picture though.

Sure, the Planning Dept is a necessity and you wouldn't expect any planning applicant to pay on a pro-rata basis - there are planning fees when you submit an application and everyone has to pay those. So on that bit I agree with you…


…but…

Cardownie is not talking about Planning officials here.

He is giving Hearts a lot of man hours of (effectively) property and development consultants, which would cost a pretty 6 figure sum if they were instead working with your Retties, Savills, DTZs etc.

They are quite openly saying that Council officials time is being given to explore and identify different sites. You don't need to do that - you certainly don't need to do that to put in planning applications!

It's quite different and will be a very valuable resource to HMFC and - I would happily bet - will come at a considerable cost to taxpayers.

Conseratively at least 400 hours of employee time, and likely to be people on a wage that is nowhere near the minimum wage, shall we say…something in the region of £10k if it is around 400 hours.

[Woody1985]

I don't believe that the council should provide any subsidy on land etc but the council have a vested interest due to a football clubs contribution to the local economy.

[Green_one]

The bottom line is Hearts have already put up a notice that the whole move is dependent on something that will almost certainly NOT happen.

They obviously cannot afford the land themselves. End of story then. Another - 'what if' fantasy.

Meantime no new stand and even Hearts fans must see they have been down this route befoer. Maybe not. :rolleyes:

[Kaiser1962]

I don't believe that the council should provide any subsidy on land etc but the council have a vested interest due to a football clubs contribution to the local economy.

No they dont.

What do Hearts contribute. They dont even pay their bills on time. :greengrin

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

The same guy who introduced Vlad to Deans way back in 2004.

There's a whiff in the air and it's not very pleasant. Tynecastlegate.


And he's a Leither as well...:fuming:

[JimBHibees]

To be fair to Steve, he did stipulate that those significant resources could only be deployed if Hearts were to draw a club from the Ukraine on their forthcoming European adventure, thus enabling him to procure a seventh bride from that country.

Another DBS classic. :faf::faf:

[Phil MaGlass]

I don't believe that the council should provide any subsidy on land etc but the council have a vested interest due to a football clubs contribution to the local economy.

aye but what local economy if they move out to the greenbelt?