Panorama last night

[poolman]

There's not a lot of things that made me angry as that programme last night about the residential care home "winterbourne View" in Bristol last night.

So called "care workers" unqualified as well, systematically abusing and torturing, yes torturing, residential patients under their so called care, daily physical abuse, verbal and physical including cold showersand cold water getting poured over them and then thrown outside into temperatures around freezing point until one poor lass was convulsing with the cold.

****in animals the lot of them and only jail time ( and a good belting IMO) should be coming to them.

I could not believe in this so called "civilised country" that this went on :fuming:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8549228/BBC-Panorama-care-home-investigation-four-arrested.html

[Betty Boop]

There's not a lot of things that made me angry as that programme last night about the residential care home "winterbourne View" in Bristol last night.

So called "care workers" unqualified as well, systematically abusing and torturing, yes torturing, residential patients under their so called care, daily physical abuse, verbal and physical including cold showersand cold water getting poured over them and then thrown outside into temperatures around freezing point until one poor lass was convulsing with the cold.

****in animals the lot of them and only jail time ( and a good belting IMO) should be coming to them.

I could not believe in this so called "civilised country" that this went on :fuming:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8549228/BBC-Panorama-care-home-investigation-four-arrested.html

'Lessons will be learned' ? The whistleblower complained to managers and the Care Commission and both failed to act. The way the vulnerable and elderly are treated is a shocking disgrace, in a so called civilised society.

[Beefster]

I didn't see it. Is action only being taken now because the abuse was filmed?

[lapsedhibee]

I didn't see it. Is action only being taken now because the abuse was filmed?

That's how it looks.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I didn't see it. Is action only being taken now because the abuse was filmed?


That's how it looks.

I can't imagine where this is going. :greengrin


There's not a lot of things that made me angry as that programme last night about the residential care home "winterbourne View" in Bristol last night.

So called "care workers" unqualified as well, systematically abusing and torturing, yes torturing, residential patients under their so called care, daily physical abuse, verbal and physical including cold showersand cold water getting poured over them and then thrown outside into temperatures around freezing point until one poor lass was convulsing with the cold.

****in animals the lot of them and only jail time ( and a good belting IMO) should be coming to them.

I could not believe in this so called "civilised country" that this went on :fuming:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8549228/BBC-Panorama-care-home-investigation-four-arrested.html

There a lot of bad people around in every walk of life. I'm interested to know what qualification care workers are supposed to have. Most of the ones I know are not qualified.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this home was in England, and the system there is different from here. I think it is right to ask questions but also to keep a sense of perspective.

As far as filming is concerned, there are lots of things cruel people can do that won't be picked up on camera. That said, I have nothing but contempt for the people who did these things, and those higher up that let them off with it.

[Hibs Class]

I think the only appropriate perspective is to be outraged at such behaviour. It doesn't take a qualification to know that the torture evidenced in the programme is wrong. That staff have been suspended should be just the start; there should be prosecutions and harsh punishments for those found guilty.

[Woody1985]

I can't imagine where this is going. :greengrin



There a lot of bad people around in every walk of life. I'm interested to know what qualification care workers are supposed to have. Most of the ones I know are not qualified.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this home was in England, and the system there is different from here. I think it is right to ask questions but also to keep a sense of perspective.

As far as filming is concerned, there are lots of things cruel people can do that won't be picked up on camera. That said, I have nothing but contempt for the people who did these things, and those higher up that let them off with it.

What do you make of the Elsie Inglish case in Abbeyhill?

A friend of mine's mother was the home manager who resigned last week, and he's not got a clue what's going on or what's meant to have happened but she's keeping a low profile.

[BEEJ]

There's not a lot of things that made me angry as that programme last night about the residential care home "winterbourne View" in Bristol last night.

So called "care workers" unqualified as well, systematically abusing and torturing, yes torturing, residential patients under their so called care, daily physical abuse, verbal and physical including cold showersand cold water getting poured over them and then thrown outside into temperatures around freezing point until one poor lass was convulsing with the cold.

****in animals the lot of them and only jail time ( and a good belting IMO) should be coming to them.

I could not believe in this so called "civilised country" that this went on :fuming:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8549228/BBC-Panorama-care-home-investigation-four-arrested.html
:agree: Horrific. It is truly disgusting that vulnerable people should be treated in this way and there ought to be prison sentences imposed on at least a dozen members of staff, including the off-screen senior managers of the organisation who allowed this culture of bullying and physical torture to prevail.

The home charged local authorities an unbelievable £3,500 per resident per week in fees and yet they put a psychopath in charge of 'care' who ruled the roost and set the tone for the environment and culture of the Home..


'Lessons will be learned' ? The whistleblower complained to managers and the Care Commission and both failed to act.
The regulator will now respond as only it knows how. There will be even tighter standards imposed on things they can measure (e.g. paperwork, processes and box-ticking) and sadly cases such as this will still escape their attention. :rolleyes:


The way the vulnerable and elderly are treated is a shocking disgrace, in a so called civilised society.
That sounds like you believe that what that programme revealed last night is widespread in the UK?

[Dinkydoo]

Only caught bits of this as I was in and out of the living room for most the night but what gets me the most is that poorly paid and subsequently, unqualified staff are allowed to look after people with learning difficulties.

Someone living close to me has an Autistic son (think he may be around 11 - 12 yrs old) and the parents - having over a decades worth of experience - still at times struggle to cope. There is now support in place in the form of a special boarding school during the week (think it works on a 'every other week' type of basis) which apart meeting the boy's learning needs gives the parents a well needed rest.

In no way, shape or form am I going to try to justify poorly paid and unqualified staff members abusing anyone - never mind those who have conditions that make everyday life for themselves (and the people who care about them) that bit harder - but the government really needs to take a look at the type of people and (just as importantly) the qualification level of personnel who are supposed to be providing a service to give the elderly and people with learning difficulties an element of dignity.

[heretoday]

It happens all over the country all the time. It's one of the hidden scandals in UK.

Pay peanuts..........get low life monkeys.

[Greentinted]

What do you make of the Elsie Inglish case in Abbeyhill?

A friend of mine's mother was the home manager who resigned last week, and he's not got a clue what's going on or what's meant to have happened but she's keeping a low profile.

Just hearing that another Elsie Inglis resident has died: http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/253923-second-resident-of-elsie-inglis-died-after-moved-out-of-the-care-home/

[Beefster]

It happens all over the country all the time. It's one of the hidden scandals in UK.

Pay peanuts..........get low life monkeys.

I agree with the first paragraph but not the second. There are a lot of low-paid workers who do a sterling job and take proper pride in what they do.

Some folk are just *****, irrespective of what they are paid.

[RyeSloan]

I agree with the first paragraph but not the second. There are a lot of low-paid workers who do a sterling job and take proper pride in what they do.

Some folk are just *****, irrespective of what they are paid.

Agreed.

Clearly higher wages can help to attract higher quality of staff in terms of specific skills and education but wage levels cannot be used as an excuse for what was contained within that programme....it wasn't incompetence or lack or knowledge or even purely down to lack of training, from what I could see it was simply people taking advantage of people who couldn't defend themselves, higher wages wouldn't have changed that.

[heretoday]

Higher wages, better training and good leadership has to be the answer in these sorts of environments. Constant monitoring of homes too.

Fat chance of that happening, I fear, under this or any other government.

Whenever you have a situation in which one set of people is put in charge of another more vulnerable set of people you are always going to get these problems occurring unless the above safeguards are in place.

Bullying and scolding would appear to be the default of human behaviour.

[steakbake]

Bullying and scolding would appear to be the default of human behaviour.

Yes, I agree. It is our default. I think the problem in these situation is that these jobs don't attract good wages but they need them. It is a hard, hard job which requires the very best out of people.

As it is, often we try to keep it cheap just to get the job done.

[speedy_gonzales]

Only caught bits of this as I was in and out of the living room for most the night but what gets me the most is that poorly paid and subsequently, unqualified staff are allowed to look after people with learning difficulties.

Are they that poorly paid though, it was quoted they get £16K a year. I know there's a hell of a lot more to it, but that seems no bad money for no apparent qualifications and having ratios of almost 1:1.
As for being unqualified, I know it is slightly (if not a lot) different but private nursery staff don't exactly get a kings ransom but are expected have all the relevant NVQ's for childcare, why aren't careworkers the same?

Regardless, I don't know how the undercover reporter, Joe, managed to go there every day, even under the guise as an employee, and not knock the $h!t out of that Wayne bully! What they done to the two main cases(Simone and ?) was despicable!

[ArabHibee]

Are they that poorly paid though, it was quoted they get £16K a year. I know there's a hell of a lot more to it, but that seems no bad money for no apparent qualifications and having ratios of almost 1:1.
As for being unqualified, I know it is slightly (if not a lot) different but private nursery staff don't exactly get a kings ransom but are expected have all the relevant NVQ's for childcare, why aren't careworkers the same?

Regardless, I don't know how the undercover reporter, Joe, managed to go there every day, even under the guise as an employee, and not knock the $h!t out of that Wayne bully! What they done to the two main cases(Simone and ?) was despicable!

16k is a rubbish wage for what these folk have to do, I'll bet this is more than likely at least a 40 hour a week job which brings their hourly rate way down.

[speedy_gonzales]

16k is a rubbish wage for what these folk have to do, I'll bet this is more than likely at least a 40 hour a week job which brings their hourly rate way down.
S'pose it all depends on what they do, or what they are supposed to do.
A couple of my cousins are support workers, FWIW both are young & female. They don't seem to complain about the pay as much as you might think, they basically have to spend 8hrs a day 1:1, sometimes they do sleepovers as well. Depending on the person they are working with/for they have to take them to the docs, shopping, outings, appointments. They reckon they get a lot of time to do their own 'messages' whilst still getting paid. There is off course the 'support' side of their daily routine including bathing, changing, toilet etc but that has to be expected.
Again, only my opinion, but there could be a lot worse 'jobs' (this 'aint a job, it's a vocation) that pay less and require more qualifications.
Personally, I don't think I have the patience or nature to do it so no amount of money would make the position attractive to me.

[poolman]

What in the name o Jeez has wages got to do with this :bitchy:

So the excuse is if your poorly paid that gives them the right to hand out abuse, assaults and general brutality :bitchy:

[Woody1985]

I read it that the suggestion is if you're unqualified and take a poor wage then you're more likely to be a low life ****bag who would do that sort of thing rather than the actual wage being a factor.

[Dinkydoo]

Are they that poorly paid though, it was quoted they get £16K a year. I know there's a hell of a lot more to it, but that seems no bad money for no apparent qualifications and having ratios of almost 1:1.
As for being unqualified, I know it is slightly (if not a lot) different but private nursery staff don't exactly get a kings ransom but are expected have all the relevant NVQ's for childcare, why aren't careworkers the same?


They are poorly paid in the sense that I'd expect someone who was given the responsibility of looking after a person with exceptionally special needs - for example, in the case of a child with some form of autism - to specialise in Learning Disabilities and be trained to Staff Nurse level.

I'm not saying that the level of pay is directly related to the abuse these people were recieving (as has already been mentioned, many lower paid workers take pride in the exceptional job they do), I'm more just generally taken back by the level of expertise you'd need to have to be eligible to apply for such a position - which is related to the level of pay you'd need to offer to attract appropriately qualified staff.

I might be being unrealistic though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What do you make of the Elsie Inglish case in Abbeyhill?

A friend of mine's mother was the home manager who resigned last week, and he's not got a clue what's going on or what's meant to have happened but she's keeping a low profile.

Haven't got a clue, it has to have been serious for the home to be closed down. I've only seen the bits in the papers, and they don't really tell much of a story.

Residents eating with their hands is quite common in even the best homes. Using, and recognising cutlery is a skill that can be wiped out by dementia.

Not saying that there hasn't been abuse, just that journalists sometimes select things to sensationalise the piece.


It happens all over the country all the time. It's one of the hidden scandals in UK.

Pay peanuts..........get low life monkeys.

There has to be something in that. However, you get low life on high wages too. In fact it seems to me, the higher the rewards, the less people care about others' rights. Nursing is like other professions, unfortunately many people put their career before the needs of patients.


I agree with the first paragraph but not the second. There are a lot of low-paid workers who do a sterling job and take proper pride in what they do.

Some folk are just *****, irrespective of what they are paid.

That's the way I am looking at it. You will get vermin at all levels. What the Bristol case has illustrated is that managers failed to act, as their salaries were on the line.

I am in favour of undercover filming in a situation like this. The real failing has been at a higher level as whistleblowers were ignored. Heavier penalties for those who ignore, and abuse whistleblowers might be a road to go down.


Are they that poorly paid though, it was quoted they get £16K a year. I know there's a hell of a lot more to it, but that seems no bad money for no apparent qualifications and having ratios of almost 1:1.
As for being unqualified, I know it is slightly (if not a lot) different but private nursery staff don't exactly get a kings ransom but are expected have all the relevant NVQ's for childcare, why aren't careworkers the same?

Regardless, I don't know how the undercover reporter, Joe, managed to go there every day, even under the guise as an employee, and not knock the $h!t out of that Wayne bully! What they done to the two main cases(Simone and ?) was despicable!

I don't know about the Bristol home. From experience, patient to staff ratios in most private care homes is something like 5:1. In simple terms, that amounts to one person getting up, washing and dressing 5 people - in time for breakfast. Hard, backbreaking work.

Most private homes pay minimum wage, with no shift weightings. You also have to man the place 24/7 meaning there is unsociable hours.

Personally, I don't think qualifications are that big a deal - providing the employer does proper training. The Care Commission checks staff records, and for that reason, most employers are very strict on delivering training.

What they aren't so good at is making sure it is being applied. That also happens in the NHS. Too many people are ready to cut corners, and too few people will takie responsibility for picking them up on it.

[ArabHibee]

What in the name o Jeez has wages got to do with this :bitchy:

So the excuse is if your poorly paid that gives them the right to hand out abuse, assaults and general brutality :bitchy:

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. No-one was saying that. See the post below:


They are poorly paid in the sense that I'd expect someone who was given the responsibility of looking after a person with exceptionally special needs - for example, in the case of a child with some form of autism - to specialise in Learning Disabilities and be trained to Staff Nurse level.

I'm not saying that the level of pay is directly related to the abuse these people were recieving (as has already been mentioned, many lower paid workers take pride in the exceptional job they do), I'm more just generally taken back by the level of expertise you'd need to have to be eligible to apply for such a position - which is related to the level of pay you'd need to offer to attract appropriately qualified staff.

I might be being unrealistic though.

:top marks Good post and exactly what I feel.

I have a friend who has recently been doing some care work. I have no idea what her title is and I do know that she has had training but I was shocked when she told me the sort of folk she was looking after overnight, on her own.

[jakki]

Similar happens with children in care. I was a foster parent for over 20 years . my fees paid for our caravan down at Seton Sands. My kids and the foster kids all enjoyed their "holidays" there. Every weekend and all the school holidays,

I was told by many foster parents that they were only in it for the money!Why did I not report them to the social works.

I did report a conversation with the police. I had been at a neighbourhood meeting and the hostess enquired that she hadn't seen C around. I explained that she had gone to new permanent foster parents A B at E and immediatelly the police seargent in our company asked for confirmation of the name. He couldn't believe that A B was a foster parent as A B had a list of criminal convictions the lenghth of his arm and he was currently being investigated for
tobacoo smuggling. The next day I phoned the SW dept and explaned my concerns and I was treated with contempt and was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't my business.After that I knew that the only children I had concern with with the ones in my car.e

A few years later I stopped being a foster parent as I couldn't accept their new rules re smoking .

Thank God my only crime was being a smoker

[AgentDaleCooper]

although i know i'm conflating correlation with cause here - these things always seem to happen in private care homes. IMO, care homes should not be run for profit.

[Sir David Gray]

although i know i'm conflating correlation with cause here - these things always seem to happen in private care homes. IMO, care homes should not be run for profit.

There have been various cases of shocking levels of care provided for the elderly and other vulnerable groups in numerous NHS hospitals in recent times. In fact, I actually have personal experience of it, myself.

A close relative went into an NHS hospital at the beginning of 2010 with pneumonia. They are in their late 70s and was very unwell at the time of their admission to hospital. For a start it took about 5 days for the hospital to provide them with antibiotics intravenously, up until then they were given antibiotics orally, which had been completely ineffective.

Then after about two weeks, when they were still clearly unwell, the hospital took the decision to discharge them because, and I quote, "we must take patients wishes into account and they are desperate to get out."

We were talking here about a person who is nearly 80 years of age and who had been, and still was, very ill with pneumonia. The hospital was also very aware of the fact that, despite having a close family network, they stayed on their own. But because my relative had stated that they wanted home, they took the decision to send them home.

They were discharged, over a weekend, and within one night they had collapsed and only just managed to get to a phone to raise the alarm. The GP was called out first thing on Monday morning and he took one look at them and immediately called for an ambulance. The GP checked their lungs and they still had pneumonia and it was still very serious. They should never have been released by the hospital and the decision to do so was completely irresponsible at best.

They were in hospital for a further three weeks, during which time they were found to be extremely dehydrated. Eventually they were deemed well enough to go home and thankfully, well over a year later they haven't had to go back to hospital.

However at the end of last year, we were hit with the devastating news that they now have vascular dementia which, we were told, was probably brought on by the fact that the pneumonia they had had a few months earlier had been so severe, their brain had been deprived of oxygen for a certain period of time.

They are now a totally different person to the one they had been just 18 months ago. They now cannot remember what they had for their tea about 10 minutes after they've finished it, they have no idea what day it is and they have no recollection of being out shopping with family just a few hours after they've come home.

The way that they are now is totally heartbreaking because I remember how they used to be before the dementia and as I was growing up they looked after me so much. For me the blame lies firmly at the door of the NHS doctors and nurses who were supposed to be looking after them last year and, as far as I'm concerned, they completely neglected their duty of care. Their last few years of life have been totally robbed from them and that is completely unforgivable.

I also have another relative who worked as a nurse for many years in the NHS and they said that this kind of attitude towards the elderly and the infirm was quite prevalent within the organisation, in their experience.

I don't see the argument that says private companies should not be in charge of care homes. You get bad people who worm their way into jobs working with vulnerable people all the time and it doesn't make any difference if it's the government who's paying them or a private businessman.

If someone wants to act in a cruel or neglectful manner towards vulnerable people in society, they will find a way of doing it.

[bighairyfaeleith]

There have been various cases of shocking levels of care provided for the elderly and other vulnerable groups in numerous NHS hospitals in recent times. In fact, I actually have personal experience of it, myself.

A close relative went into an NHS hospital at the beginning of 2010 with pneumonia. They are in their late 70s and was very unwell at the time of their admission to hospital. For a start it took about 5 days for the hospital to provide them with antibiotics intravenously, up until then they were given antibiotics orally, which had been completely ineffective.

Then after about two weeks, when they were still clearly unwell, the hospital took the decision to discharge them because, and I quote, "we must take patients wishes into account and they are desperate to get out."

We were talking here about a person who is nearly 80 years of age and who had been, and still was, very ill with pneumonia. The hospital was also very aware of the fact that, despite having a close family network, they stayed on their own. But because my relative had stated that they wanted home, they took the decision to send them home.

They were discharged, over a weekend, and within one night they had collapsed and only just managed to get to a phone to raise the alarm. The GP was called out first thing on Monday morning and he took one look at them and immediately called for an ambulance. The GP checked their lungs and they still had pneumonia and it was still very serious. They should never have been released by the hospital and the decision to do so was completely irresponsible at best.

They were in hospital for a further three weeks, during which time they were found to be extremely dehydrated. Eventually they were deemed well enough to go home and thankfully, well over a year later they haven't had to go back to hospital.

However at the end of last year, we were hit with the devastating news that they now have vascular dementia which, we were told, was probably brought on by the fact that the pneumonia they had had a few months earlier had been so severe, their brain had been deprived of oxygen for a certain period of time.

They are now a totally different person to the one they had been just 18 months ago. They now cannot remember what they had for their tea about 10 minutes after they've finished it, they have no idea what day it is and they have no recollection of being out shopping with family just a few hours after they've come home.

The way that they are now is totally heartbreaking because I remember how they used to be before the dementia and as I was growing up they looked after me so much. For me the blame lies firmly at the door of the NHS doctors and nurses who were supposed to be looking after them last year and, as far as I'm concerned, they completely neglected their duty of care. Their last few years of life have been totally robbed from them and that is completely unforgivable.

I also have another relative who worked as a nurse for many years in the NHS and they said that this kind of attitude towards the elderly and the infirm was quite prevalent within the organisation, in their experience.

I don't see the argument that says private companies should not be in charge of care homes. You get bad people who worm their way into jobs working with vulnerable people all the time and it doesn't make any difference if it's the government who's paying them or a private businessman.

If someone wants to act in a cruel or neglectful manner towards vulnerable people in society, they will find a way of doing it.

ahem, is there not another thread your due a post on:wink:

[Beefster]

although i know i'm conflating correlation with cause here - these things always seem to happen in private care homes. IMO, care homes should not be run for profit.

As FH has said, this isn't true. I know it's not necessarily representative but my experience is the exact opposite.

[Allant1981]

I worked in a hospital for years and can assure you this type of thing doesnt just happen in care homes, ive seen countless things happen that you can only dream wouldnt happen to any of your family and know of things that get swept under the carpet and families never get told

[Dinkydoo]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. No-one was saying that. See the post below:



:top marks Good post and exactly what I feel.

I have a friend who has recently been doing some care work. I have no idea what her title is and I do know that she has had training but I was shocked when she told me the sort of folk she was looking after overnight, on her own.


I have a friend who was a Care Worker for a while who I wouldn't trust to look after my dog overnight, never mind the kind of vunerable people she was trusted to help dress and take to the shops every other day.

She's not a bad person and very kind hearted, but wouldn't exactly be my ideal choice to have around when an elderly person goes into cardiac arrest - the friend in question barley has any standard grades!

Not that, not having qualifications in general are an issue, but to be able to respond to the many potential emergency situations that could arise when looking after someone like that, appropriate qualifications are essential IMO.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I have a friend who was a Care Worker for a while who I wouldn't trust to look after my dog overnight, never mind the kind of vunerable people she was trusted to help dress and take to the shops every other day.

She's not a bad person and very kind hearted, but wouldn't exactly be my ideal choice to have around when an elderly person goes into cardiac arrest - the friend in question barley has any standard grades!

Not that, not having qualifications in general are an issue, but to be able to respond to the many potential emergency situations that could arise when looking after someone like that, appropriate qualifications are essential IMO.

We're talking about care workers, not paramedics. I think part of the problem is that people start to talk about other people's jobs without knowing exactly what the job entails.

It's ill informed hysteria that leads to bad decisions being made by government. I think I heard someone on Question Time say that any government minister wanting to comment on care should do a day's work as a carer.

[Greentinted]

We're talking about care workers, not paramedics. I think part of the problem is that people start to talk about other people's jobs without knowing exactly what the job entails.

Would a care worker not have to be competent in basic first-aid/CPR techniques? (Honest question, not a gratutious dig)

It's ill informed hysteria that leads to bad decisions being made by government. I think I heard someone on Question Time say that any government minister wanting to comment on care should do a day's work as a carer.

Overall, I find this state of affairs very sad and I'm glad, that on a personal level my mum is a fit auld bird who into her 70s now, is still entirely self-sufficient. Perhaps moot as both my sister and I have always said that should it become an issue, we would both ensure she was cared for by us.

[Dinkydoo]

We're talking about care workers, not paramedics. I think part of the problem is that people start to talk about other people's jobs without knowing exactly what the job entails.

It's ill informed hysteria that leads to bad decisions being made by government. I think I heard someone on Question Time say that any government minister wanting to comment on care should do a day's work as a carer.


That is a fair enough comment to make as I don't know exactly what the job entails however, I would say that people should be trained relative to the potential risk of an emergency situation arising, rather than purely on those things that make up thier core duties - this includes having the appropriate qualifications.

Not in every type of job but certainly within a healthcare setting IMO - again though, I may be being a tad unrealistic.

[BEEJ]

Would a care worker not have to be competent in basic first-aid/CPR techniques? (Honest question, not a gratutious dig).
Not each and every one of them, no.

In a Residential Home there will be at least one person on each shift with these skills. In a Nursing Home the duty nurse takes responsibility for these areas (in the case of CPR, after checking first of all that the resident in question has not signed a Non Resuscitation Request form).

[Greentinted]

Not each and every one of them, no.

In a Residential Home there will be at least one person on each shift with these skills. In a Nursing Home the duty nurse takes responsibility for these areas (in the case of CPR, after checking first of all that the resident in question has not signed a Non Resuscitation Request form).

Ta for that. At once concerning (re the first-aid at any rate) and symptomatic of a lot of the problems emerging from the care sectors.

[Beefster]

We're talking about care workers, not paramedics. I think part of the problem is that people start to talk about other people's jobs without knowing exactly what the job entails.

It's ill informed hysteria that leads to bad decisions being made by government. I think I heard someone on Question Time say that any government minister wanting to comment on care should do a day's work as a carer.

This site wouldn't exist but for folk talking about other folk's jobs!

I'm not sure that what a nurse / care worker / doctor's job entails is that relevant. Folk aren't looking for a crash course in the difficulties they face any more than they'd be interested in hearing how some terrible code can ruin my week.

Folk are only expecting basic levels of care to be given and common decency to be extended to some old people. The fact that a care worker may be having a ****ty day and has spent three hours mopping up piss doesn't (or shouldn't) affect the care given and if it does, I'd suggest that they might be in the wrong job.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Overall, I find this state of affairs very sad and I'm glad, that on a personal level my mum is a fit auld bird who into her 70s now, is still entirely self-sufficient. Perhaps moot as both my sister and I have always said that should it become an issue, we would both ensure she was cared for by us.

I think many people set off hoping to care for their loved ones, but find it harder to keep going as things get worse. There is no shame in turning over care that's needed 24/7 to others. I think in an ideal world, advances in technology will mean it is possible for people to remain in their own homes much longer.


That is a fair enough comment to make as I don't know exactly what the job entails however, I would say that people should be trained relative to the potential risk of an emergency situation arising, rather than purely on those things that make up thier core duties - this includes having the appropriate qualifications.

Not in every type of job but certainly within a healthcare setting IMO - again though, I may be being a tad unrealistic.

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in what I was saying, I just wanted to stress that carers aren't nurses or paramedics. Their job is to ensure that their clients are kept clean, and fed, and safe.

Anyone with common sense can spot when an old person is in distress, and they should be able to pass that information onto the nurse in charge. Then it's a case of letting them lead the way, and often there is nothing to be done, because the majority of people in care homes have DNR orders in place.

I agree that common sense is definitely an attribute that is needed though, and dippy chicks are maybe in the wrong job.


This site wouldn't exist but for folk talking about other folk's jobs!

I'm not sure that what a nurse / care worker / doctor's job entails is that relevant. Folk aren't looking for a crash course in the difficulties they face any more than they'd be interested in hearing how some terrible code can ruin my week.

Folk are only expecting basic levels of care to be given and common decency to be extended to some old people. The fact that a care worker may be having a ****ty day and has spent three hours mopping up piss doesn't (or shouldn't) affect the care given and if it does, I'd suggest that they might be in the wrong job.

I think your last paragraph is the crux of the matter. I'd agree that someone who can't handle a bit of wee and poo is in the wrong job. Common decency or humanity is what is required in the job.

That said, I'd challenge anyone to clean up someone who is covered head to toe in excrement, not to have an ironic laugh, or wrinkle their nose, or want to puke. It's these sort of things that would soon be seized upon by watchers on CCTV.

Because, when it comes to the bit, there are very few accurate ways of measuring humanity. The failing at the Bristol home wasn't that people didn't care about the actions of a few twisted people, it's that no-one was prepared to act on it.

You say people are only expecting basic levels of care. My point is that there are maybe different interpretations of what that involves.

[ArabHibee]

But we're not just talking about care workers in old folk homes FR, we're talking about them in all aspects. The example I gave was of someone I know looking after a mentally and physically disabled person in their home, on their own. The point I was trying to make was my friend has had very little training imo, to be put in such a position of trust.

[Sir David Gray]

A little bit of added information to the post I made earlier;

The same relative that I was referring to above was found to be shaking and in a state of confusion yesterday evening so a family member phoned for NHS 24.

After passing on some details of the symptoms, a doctor was sent out to their home. When the doctor arrived, he went straight up to them and asked them what was wrong, even although they could barely talk.

He then asked why they weren't getting a certain type of medication which he said they should be on for their various ailments. This is despite the fact that their own GP takes a great deal of care when dealing with them and we are very happy with him as a doctor.

After doing a few checks (I use that term loosely), he came to the conclusion that they had a chest infection and a fever. Again, this is despite the fact that the GP had been out yesterday morning to carry out some routine checks so we found it hard to believe that a chest infection was the cause of their problems.

Given the very high temperatures of yesterday and the fact that they had been outside for a period of time, we asked the doctor if it could be heatstroke. To which he replied with great ridicule that it had not been hot enough to suffer heatstroke yesterday. That's despite the fact that it was about 75 degrees yesterday and my relative is almost 80 years old.

How a doctor can dismiss the possibility of heatstroke so readily beggars belief.

Anyway he prescribed some antibiotics and also recommended paracetamol, which he didn't have on him. However, he did say, and I quote, "Don't worry, you can get it at any garage."

It was an unbelievable experience and given the fact that my relative is now fine today and has never coughed once, there is absolutely no chance that they have a chest infection and no-one will tell me that their problem last night was not heatstroke.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the NHS is a valuable organisation and I am glad that we have it but it is not immune from having incompetent, lazy and unsympathetic people working for it.

[nic81]

Right some of the comments in this thread are ludicrous, stop tarring everyone with the same brush ffs!!!

I am a team leader for an organisation who supports adults and children with learning disabilities and mental health issues, i run a service which suports 3 adults to live in their own home and have a staff team of 8 underneath me

All our staff have disclosre checks and must complete adult support and protection training before comencing in any service or child protection if working wth kids, we have a barrel load of training that includes first aid, health and safety, person centred approach, and much much more

The abuse that this programme uncovered has nothing to do with training or pay, some people are so clever that they can talk the talk but when it comes to walking the walk they are completely hopeless, this is where the problems begin, you can give staff the best training in the world but if they want to be abusive they will so to say that it happens because of pay and training is just rediculous in my opinion

The responsibilty for this lies soley with the senior management ad the care quality commision who were both told that this abuse was going on and failed to do nothing, there are many many people who work in care and couldnt give a monkeys about the pay, it's not a job that you take on thinking about the money, if it was then there would be a lot more folk on the dole

Every single memebr of staff that worked in that hospital should be sacked for gross misconduct wether they dished out abuse or not, the ones that didnt abuse anyone are just as guilty as the abusers as they knew it was going on!!

Sadly these types of cases will always come up from time to time if someone wants to hurt someone they will regardless of the situation

[Phil D. Rolls]

But we're not just talking about care workers in old folk homes FR, we're talking about them in all aspects. The example I gave was of someone I know looking after a mentally and physically disabled person in their home, on their own. The point I was trying to make was my friend has had very little training imo, to be put in such a position of trust.

Sorry, I hadn't read your earlier post. Sounds like your friend has taken on a very difficult job.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Right some of the comments in this thread are ludicrous, stop tarring everyone with the same brush ffs!!!

I am a team leader for an organisation who supports adults and children with learning disabilities and mental health issues, i run a service which suports 3 adults to live in their own home and have a staff team of 8 underneath me

All our staff have disclosre checks and must complete adult support and protection training before comencing in any service or child protection if working wth kids, we have a barrel load of training that includes first aid, health and safety, person centred approach, and much much more

The abuse that this programme uncovered has nothing to do with training or pay, some people are so clever that they can talk the talk but when it comes to walking the walk they are completely hopeless, this is where the problems begin, you can give staff the best training in the world but if they want to be abusive they will so to say that it happens because of pay and training is just rediculous in my opinion

The responsibilty for this lies soley with the senior management ad the care quality commision who were both told that this abuse was going on and failed to do nothing, there are many many people who work in care and couldnt give a monkeys about the pay, it's not a job that you take on thinking about the money, if it was then there would be a lot more folk on the dole

Every single memebr of staff that worked in that hospital should be sacked for gross misconduct wether they dished out abuse or not, the ones that didnt abuse anyone are just as guilty as the abusers as they knew it was going on!!

Sadly these types of cases will always come up from time to time if someone wants to hurt someone they will regardless of the situation

Agreed, this is the main problem that whistleblowers face. Namely that the employer cannot sack every one. What tends to happen is that it is the whistle blower who is moved on.

I know lots of stories of nurses who have shopped their colleagues and then find themselves in a very difficult situation. In one case a charge nurse was claiming that she was working weekends.

All the other nurses would sign the off duty to say that she had been in. However when it came to the person I know's turn to do it, she refused.

She then had to draw attention to the dishonesty that was taking place. After being sent to Coventry by her co - workers, she had to get a move to another hospital. The charge nurse's defence was that her line manager was aware of what was going on.

The nurses who had colluded with the charge nurse were given acting up money as they had to cover her work whilst she was being investigated.

It makes my blood boil just typing this. Honesty is one of the most fundamental requirements for a nurse, and these low life have laughed in the face of every right thinking nurse.

However, they have been aided and abetted by a weak incompetent management that would have to acknowledge its own failings to discipline the crooked charge nurse.

[Dinkydoo]

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in what I was saying, I just wanted to stress that carers aren't nurses or paramedics. Their job is to ensure that their clients are kept clean, and fed, and safe.

Anyone with common sense can spot when an old person is in distress, and they should be able to pass that information onto the nurse in charge. Then it's a case of letting them lead the way, and often there is nothing to be done, because the majority of people in care homes have DNR orders in place.

I agree that common sense is definitely an attribute that is needed though, and dippy chicks are maybe in the wrong job.


I didn't think your post was harsh and I agree that Carers jobs in essence are to ensure thier clients are fed, safe, washed and comfortable - this is about as far as my understaning of thier job goes so in that respect, I felt your comment was fair enough.

However, where I think we disagree is that I feel these Carers should be appropriately qualified to deal with at least some of the potential situations that could (and in all probability, will) arise whilst providing care for the elderly or learning disabled.

The friend I was talking about previously did provide care for for people with learning disabilities as well as the elderly - the elderly person going into cardiac arrest was only an example, and probably not a great one at that!

In many cases the care provided was at the individuals home and not in a specialised unit or anything like that.

Therefore IMO, the knowledge and skills possessed by this type of carer should absolutley go further than simply having the common sense to spot when someone appears to be in distress and sufficiently report it to a Nurse.

Upon reflection though, I probably didn't make it very clear that my feelings on the subject are more applicable to care being provided outwith specialised units, where clinical assistance isn't always 30 seconds away.

[MSK]

I didn't think your post was harsh and I agree that Carers jobs in essence are to ensure thier clients are fed, safe, washed and comfortable - this is about as far as my understaning of thier job goes so in that respect, I felt your comment was fair enough.

However, where I think we disagree is that I feel these Carers should be appropriately qualified to deal with at least some of the potential situations that could (and in all probability, will) arise whilst providing care for the elderly or learning disabled.

The friend I was talking about previously did provide care for for people with learning disabilities as well as the elderly - the elderly person going into cardiac arrest was only an example, and probably not a great one at that!

In many cases the care provided was at the individuals home and not in a specialised unit or anything like that.

Therefore IMO, the knowledge and skills possessed by this type of carer should absolutley go further than simply having the common sense to spot when someone appears to be in distress and sufficiently report it to a Nurse.

Upon reflection though, I probably didn't make it very clear that my feelings on the subject are more applicable to care being provided outwith specialised units, where clinical assistance isn't always 30 seconds away.Care organisations differ Dinkydoo & when it comes down to specific training many baulk at the cost, moreso the private operators who's profit before person syndrome kicks in.

I work for the NHS in Adult Learning Disabilities & I cant fault the training given before I started working in the "wings" most other than CPR I have used within my time there, all at a cost but all vital to my role in supporting patients within my place of work or within the community.

Back to the "profit before person syndrome"

My Wife worked in a private care home before she took up her nursing degree. She started off as a care assistant before moving up to a more senior position. She previously had experience as a Nursing Assistant in cardiac/stroke before taking up this role.

In starting this position she was astounded at the immaturity & lack of skills as well as the language barrier within the staff group. There was also a togetherness or as I would call it ..a "clique" and it didnt take her long to realise the aspect of basic care was very minimal or to the point non-existant.

She used all her nursing experience & her approach skills to integrate with the owners of the care home & managed to get them to agree to sending her staff on courses such as oral hygiene & bed sore management etc. Some couldnt even work the electric bath/bed hoist.

The management were lax in their responsibilities & were detached from the practices of daily living within their own care home as they mostly lived away & most likely sat back watching the money pour in.

My Wife went through that place like a dose of salts, staff became more patient aware & realised the responsibilities of their job. Training tasks & rota's were set up as to keep them on their toe's as well as my Wife mentoring & supporting two staff whilst doing their SVQ 2's in Health & Social Care.

The care setting is probably the most easy employment to get into with regards minimal or no experience, so in light of all this recent abuse perhaps the vetting system should be more challenging ..it is a job you have to want to do, no-one forces you to do it so excuses of pay peanuts gets monkeys is total bollox..to be in care you have to care ...same cant be said about the bullies sadly ..

[RyeSloan]

Care organisations differ Dinkydoo & when it comes down to specific training many baulk at the cost, moreso the private operators who's profit before person syndrome kicks in.

I work for the NHS in Adult Learning Disabilities & I cant fault the training given before I started working in the "wings" most other than CPR I have used within my time there, all at a cost but all vital to my role in supporting patients within my place of work or within the community.

Back to the "profit before person syndrome"

My Wife worked in a private care home before she took up her nursing degree. She started off as a care assistant before moving up to a more senior position. She previously had experience as a Nursing Assistant in cardiac/stroke before taking up this role.

In starting this position she was astounded at the immaturity & lack of skills as well as the language barrier within the staff group. There was also a togetherness or as I would call it ..a "clique" and it didnt take her long to realise the aspect of basic care was very minimal or to the point non-existant.

She used all her nursing experience & her approach skills to integrate with the owners of the care home & managed to get them to agree to sending her staff on courses such as oral hygiene & bed sore management etc. Some couldnt even work the electric bath/bed hoist.

The management were lax in their responsibilities & were detached from the practices of daily living within their own care home as they mostly lived away & most likely sat back watching the money pour in.

My Wife went through that place like a dose of salts, staff became more patient aware & realised the responsibilities of their job. Training tasks & rota's were set up as to keep them on their toe's as well as my Wife mentoring & supporting two staff whilst doing their SVQ 2's in Health & Social Care.

The care setting is probably the most easy employment to get into with regards minimal or no experience, so in light of all this recent abuse perhaps the vetting system should be more challenging ..it is a job you have to want to do, no-one forces you to do it so excuses of pay peanuts gets monkeys is total bollox..to be in care you have to care ...same cant be said about the bullies sadly ..

Excellent example of where bad management is the starting place for a lot of these issues.

I do though wonder about the "profit before person syndrome"

Surely to have a long term profitable business care homes need to provide adequate care and well trained staff or they will ultimately suffer the same fate as the Elsie Inglis....under investing in staff in most businesses normally comes home to roost sooner rather than later.

It would seem however that care homes are dodging this 'normal' effect to some degree and I wonder why that is, especially considering that there is an inspection scheme in place and of course plenty of relatives and government agencies spending a lot of money to keep people in these places.

A crap hotel gets poor online reviews and occupancy goes down. The hotel either changes up and improves or goes out of business...why is the inspection and 'customer' reviews of care homes not working in the same way? Surely not all patients in these homes are incapable of informing relatives or the authorities when they suffer or see malpractice?

[MSK]

Excellent example of where bad management is the starting place for a lot of these issues.

I do though wonder about the "profit before person syndrome"

Surely to have a long term profitable business care homes need to provide adequate care and well trained staff or they will ultimately suffer the same fate as the Elsie Inglis....under investing in staff in most businesses normally comes home to roost sooner rather than later.

It would seem however that care homes are dodging this 'normal' effect to some degree and I wonder why that is, especially considering that there is an inspection scheme in place and of course plenty of relatives and government agencies spending a lot of money to keep people in these places.

A crap hotel gets poor online reviews and occupancy goes down. The hotel either changes up and improves or goes out of business...why is the inspection and 'customer' reviews of care homes not working in the same way? Surely not all patients in these homes are incapable of informing relatives or the authorities when they suffer or see malpractice?When basic requirements & standards are met by the care homes & audits are in place then I would assume the care commision will be satisfied. Corners are cut in everyday practices & nursing is no different..if basic standards are being met then there is no real complaint by the CC ..

Recently there was an audit & review of care homes in Edinburgh (covered by the EEN) ...most if not all failed basic audits but most of the failures were minor & nowhere near the sad extremeties of what happened in the Elsie Inglis care home.

The profit before person syndrome I refer too can mean as much as paying £50 for a low quality mattress or paying £2000 for a pressure sore mattress...£500 to do a room up or £50 to give it a lick of paint...cheap food from Aldi's or decent quality from Marks & Sparks ...

Most of the Women in my Wife's care eventually got the best, or near as damn it ..a hairdresser came in ..a beutician came in ..entertainment on a monthly basis (singers etc) ..art therapy.. you name it they got it ..what price for a bit of happiness eh ..all my Wife wanted was for those Women to be treated with the same dignity & respect she or any of her relatives would command..it shouldnt have taken my Wife to lift that place up from its knee's ..most or not all should be a given ..every day of every single week of every year of those Women's lives ..:agree:

[MSK]

We read about the physical neglect of those poor folk in the Panorama prog & the recent Elsie Inglis case ..but mental neglect is rife in those & other places too ..

I remember reading a sad report from an undercover reporter for the EEN in an Edinburgh care home. The reporter took the time to sit down & have a conversation with the old fella ..the old guy thanked the reporter (carer) for taking the time to sit & talk with him, he said " The Nusing staff are lovely but are under pressure to do other tasks & dont have the time to sit down & talk with me"..

All the guy wanted was company, someone to talk too, he didnt complain about the care he recieved but more the point that he was sat in a chair & ignored for the best part of the day with only fellow patients for company.

My Dad may be going into care ..I dread to think where he will end up ..

[Dinkydoo]

Care organisations differ Dinkydoo & when it comes down to specific training many baulk at the cost, moreso the private operators who's profit before person syndrome kicks in.

I work for the NHS in Adult Learning Disabilities & I cant fault the training given before I started working in the "wings" most other than CPR I have used within my time there, all at a cost but all vital to my role in supporting patients within my place of work or within the community.

I can't really fault any of the mandatory training down here either for clinical staff - the Immediate Life Support course seems quite comprehensive, although it's not mandatory for all staff groups.

The Child Protection training however, for a significant amount of NHS staff, is an 8 question online assessment - but that's another gripe for another day. :wink:


Back to the "profit before person syndrome"

My Wife worked in a private care home before she took up her nursing degree. She started off as a care assistant before moving up to a more senior position. She previously had experience as a Nursing Assistant in cardiac/stroke before taking up this role.

In starting this position she was astounded at the immaturity & lack of skills as well as the language barrier within the staff group. There was also a togetherness or as I would call it ..a "clique" and it didnt take her long to realise the aspect of basic care was very minimal or to the point non-existant.

She used all her nursing experience & her approach skills to integrate with the owners of the care home & managed to get them to agree to sending her staff on courses such as oral hygiene & bed sore management etc. Some couldnt even work the electric bath/bed hoist.

The management were lax in their responsibilities & were detached from the practices of daily living within their own care home as they mostly lived away & most likely sat back watching the money pour in.

My Wife went through that place like a dose of salts, staff became more patient aware & realised the responsibilities of their job. Training tasks & rota's were set up as to keep them on their toe's as well as my Wife mentoring & supporting two staff whilst doing their SVQ 2's in Health & Social Care.

The care setting is probably the most easy employment to get into with regards minimal or no experience, so in light of all this recent abuse perhaps the vetting system should be more challenging ..it is a job you have to want to do, no-one forces you to do it so excuses of pay peanuts gets monkeys is total bollox..to be in care you have to care ...same cant be said about the bullies sadly ..

Bit in bold is exactly what I'm talking about, I hate to use this cliche but "Can we really put a price on someone's life?"

I'd hope not and I'm sure most families of individuals recieving care wouldn't think so either.

The bit around paying peanuts and getting monkeys is bollox IMO too. What I initially (iirc) posted, was that organisation's need to be very careful around the types of people they are putting into care roles as someone is essentially going to be dependant on them in some way shape or form.

Paying higher wages alone won't get rid of ********s and bullies wanting to become Carer's as unfortuantely being an ******** and a bully isn't measured by how educated you are. Paying higher will though, hopefully, attract a better quality of candidate for positions like these. Ones that hopefully would be able to respond appropriately to some of the potential situations that could occur when looking after a vunerable person; which is especially important if you aren't based somewhere that clinical help can reach you in minutes.

Hats off to your wife btw, sounds like she did a fantastic job there. :top marks

[MSK]

The Child Protection training however, for a significant amount of NHS staff, is an 8 question online assessment - but that's another gripe for another day. :wink:





Hats off to your wife btw, sounds like she did a fantastic job there. :top marksI agree with the online assessment ..a bit of a joke really ..:agree:

With regards my Wife, thanks...she only done what others with an ounce of savvy should have done, it works both ways too though as the reputation of the care home has increased too ..for the better ..:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

We read about the physical neglect of those poor folk in the Panorama prog & the recent Elsie Inglis case ..but mental neglect is rife in those & other places too ..

I remember reading a sad report from an undercover reporter for the EEN in an Edinburgh care home. The reporter took the time to sit down & have a conversation with the old fella ..the old guy thanked the reporter (carer) for taking the time to sit & talk with him, he said " The Nusing staff are lovely but are under pressure to do other tasks & dont have the time to sit down & talk with me"..

All the guy wanted was company, someone to talk too, he didnt complain about the care he recieved but more the point that he was sat in a chair & ignored for the best part of the day with only fellow patients for company.

My Dad may be going into care ..I dread to think where he will end up ..

Got to say having worked in a private home, and in the NHS wards across the road - sometimes caring for the same patients - the care in the private home was much better. Admittedly it was one of the best run homes in that particular group, and probably one of the best in Scotland.

I have come across excellent facilities in the NHS and I also know wards where the needs of the staff drive the care given to the patients. I have to stress that it isn't abuse I'm talking about, but more cutting corners unecessarily so they can get out for a fag.

I, personally, am a staunch supporter of the principles of the NHS, and just can't see how a profit can be morally made out of people's distress. What I don't like in the NHS is the size of the organisation and its bureacracy - this often gets in the way of care.

My example is that we are often prevented from activities like cooking a curry with the patients due to food safety, and demarcation issues. This is maybe another example of how rules put in to protect people, ultimately get in the way of what they really need. (Gio back to the example of whether it is OK to cuddle a patient).

The public are often well meaning in their concerns, and sometimes they are well founded. I just feel that in our risk averse culture, the easiest thing for management to do is to prohibit everything.

[RyeSloan]

Got to say having worked in a private home, and in the NHS wards across the road - sometimes caring for the same patients - the care in the private home was much better. Admittedly it was one of the best run homes in that particular group, and probably one of the best in Scotland.

I have come across excellent facilities in the NHS and I also know wards where the needs of the staff drive the care given to the patients. I have to stress that it isn't abuse I'm talking about, but more cutting corners unecessarily so they can get out for a fag.

I, personally, am a staunch supporter of the principles of the NHS, and just can't see how a profit can be morally made out of people's distress. What I don't like in the NHS is the size of the organisation and its bureacracy - this often gets in the way of care.

My example is that we are often prevented from activities like cooking a curry with the patients due to food safety, and demarcation issues. This is maybe another example of how rules put in to protect people, ultimately get in the way of what they really need. (Gio back to the example of whether it is OK to cuddle a patient).

The public are often well meaning in their concerns, and sometimes they are well founded. I just feel that in our risk averse culture, the easiest thing for management to do is to prohibit everything.

An argument seen often in NHS v Private discussions…to me it's clear...if the profit is made by providing a high quality yet efficient service at a cost lower and a quality higher than what could be provided through a huge and inefficient bureaucracy then there is no moral hazard what so ever.

Health Service provision in the UK may be 'universal' but it sure as hell isn't 'free' so who provides it and if a profit is made would seem to be a much smaller concern than the level of care provided, sadly it seems pretty tricky to have a sensible debate around that without people hyperbolising the argument into an attack on universal access which it is not. Not referring to your post here, just the general timbre of the political landscape a around the NHS...it's a bit like the war on drugs, we all know it’s failing but yet anyone trying to discuss the alternatives are shouted down and painted as some sort of potential destroyer of society.

Back to the OP it seems to me that there is a general lack of proper review by the care commission or whoever, the wrong measurements are being taken and thus the inspection regime is giving the wrong answers. There also seems to be a significant lack of ability for the people in these care homes to raise concerns/issues and for those to be taken seriously….sounds to me like there needs to be an independent body responsible for investigating such claims, a bit like what the financial ombudsman does (quite successfully) in the financial world. Finally there needs to be some sort of public ranking of care homes (a bit like the start system for hotels) and increased availability of choice to ensure homes are forced to drive their standard of care up to keep their customers.

[Phil D. Rolls]

An argument seen often in NHS v Private discussions…to me it's clear...if the profit is made by providing a high quality yet efficient service at a cost lower and a quality higher than what could be provided through a huge and inefficient bureaucracy then there is no moral hazard what so ever.

Health Service provision in the UK may be 'universal' but it sure as hell isn't 'free' so who provides it and if a profit is made would seem to be a much smaller concern than the level of care provided, sadly it seems pretty tricky to have a sensible debate around that without people hyperbolising the argument into an attack on universal access which it is not. Not referring to your post here, just the general timbre of the political landscape a around the NHS...it's a bit like the war on drugs, we all know it’s failing but yet anyone trying to discuss the alternatives are shouted down and painted as some sort of potential destroyer of society.

Back to the OP it seems to me that there is a general lack of proper review by the care commission or whoever, the wrong measurements are being taken and thus the inspection regime is giving the wrong answers. There also seems to be a significant lack of ability for the people in these care homes to raise concerns/issues and for those to be taken seriously….sounds to me like there needs to be an independent body responsible for investigating such claims, a bit like what the financial ombudsman does (quite successfully) in the financial world. Finally there needs to be some sort of public ranking of care homes (a bit like the start system for hotels) and increased availability of choice to ensure homes are forced to drive their standard of care up to keep their customers.

I'm open minded about the whole thing. I love the principle of the NHS, but you look at other European countries and people aren't exactly dropping like flies.

Having been in medical admission wards in two different hospitals recently, it struck me that a lot of those pitching up for treatment needn't have been there at all. I wonder if so many people would go if they had to pay.

That's the crux of the issue IMO. How do you balance putting people off seeking treatment, with treating the malingerers and attention seekers? It's the fact that people are expecting too much from the NHS that is bringing it down from what I can see.

The other side of it is that when the profit motive comes in, you see clinical decisions being based on the cost. Of course, the NHS is doing that anyway - GPs often prescribe the cheapest drug instead of the best one.

Regarding regulation of care homes, the irony is that all the things you suggest are already in place. My argument is that without these mechanisms things would probably be a lot worse, it is to the Care Commission's credit that Elsie Inglis was dealt with so quickly. Short of having daily and weekly inspections of what is going on, what do you do?

I really hope that there aren't other failing homes out there that are being missed.

[MSK]

Regarding regulation of care homes, the irony is that all the things you suggest are already in place. My argument is that without these mechanisms things would probably be a lot worse, it is to the Care Commission's credit that Elsie Inglis was dealt with so quickly. Short of having daily and weekly inspections of what is going on, what do you do?

I really hope that there aren't other failing homes out there that are being missed.More training is what is required FR, expensive or not folk coming into the service must have a level of training & competency to prepare them for the job ahead, that should be compulsory & cost v human life should/must not become a factor. We have both seen it, we have both worked with staff who are just thrown in to "get on with it"...& by training I dont mean a 2 week induction course where half a day consists of making beds & getting your "hospital corners" right ..& the other half spent in the canteen !!

If my Dad goes into a care home & is suffering from dementia I want him nursed by someone who knows about dementia....if my Dad needs palliative care I want him nursed by someone who knows about palliative care..in this day & age we shouldnt be worried about where our elderly relatives go ..we do though ..

[Phil D. Rolls]

More training is what is required FR, expensive or not folk coming into the service must have a level of training & competency to prepare them for the job ahead, that should be compulsory & cost v human life should/must not become a factor. We have both seen it, we have both worked with staff who are just thrown in to "get on with it"...& by training I dont mean a 2 week induction course where half a day consists of making beds & getting your "hospital corners" right ..& the other half spent in the canteen !!

If my Dad goes into a care home & is suffering from dementia I want him nursed by someone who knows about dementia....if my Dad needs palliative care I want him nursed by someone who knows about palliative care..in this day & age we shouldnt be worried about where our elderly relatives go ..we do though ..

To be honest, my experience in Lothian has been that it is lack of consistency of staff that is the major problem in the NHS. You will often work a shift with 50% of the people being bank staff.

As for dementia training, and palliative care such as the Liverpool Care Pathway, I agree these should be pushed more. However, I have to say that the nurses I have worked with in "continuing care" have been very good on both these subjects.

It's when you go to other areas that you find the real deficit. Maybe the reason that they aren't encouraged is because the Health Board is more bothered with ensuring those compulsory subjects like Manual Handling and CPR are covered.

Slight echoes of an earlier post there, in that the public demands a lot of things, but possibly isn't prepared to pay for it. Surely it can't just be because management in the NHS is so fragmented, and so many managers don't understand their job?

[MSK]

To be honest, my experience in Lothian has been that it is lack of consistency of staff that is the major problem in the NHS. You will often work a shift with 50% of the people being bank staff.

As for dementia training, and palliative care such as the Liverpool Care Pathway, I agree these should be pushed more. However, I have to say that the nurses I have worked with in "continuing care" have been very good on both these subjects.

It's when you go to other areas that you find the real deficit. Maybe the reason that they aren't encouraged is because the Health Board is more bothered with ensuring those compulsory subjects like Manual Handling and CPR are covered.

Slight echoes of an earlier post there, in that the public demands a lot of things, but possibly isn't prepared to pay for it. Surely it can't just be because management in the NHS is so fragmented, and so many managers don't understand their job?Good points FR..too many Chiefs & not enough Indians perhaps ..Senior Nursing staff becoming submerged in politics & paperwork whilst becoming more detached from the patient & leaving unskilled or newly qualified staff on the floor (thats just a wee rant :greengrin)

Im not doubting there are many class facilities out there with first class hard working staff running those places, hats off to them ..now we need the CC tae get their fingers oot their erses so we can prevent another Elsies or Castlebeck Bristol happening.. :agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Good points FR..too many Chiefs & not enough Indians perhaps ..Senior Nursing staff becoming submerged in politics & paperwork whilst becoming more detached from the patient & leaving unskilled or newly qualified staff on the floor (thats just a wee rant :greengrin)

Im not doubting there are many class facilities out there with first class hard working staff running those places, hats off to them ..now we need the CC tae get their fingers oot their erses so we can prevent another Elsies or Castlebeck Bristol happening.. :agree:

I can relate to that!

I know someone that told me, as member of staff on a ward, getting a visit from the Mental Welfare Commission, is a bit like when the Red Cross used to visit POWs. Strangely, the minute their visit is announced, management are out checking care plans, and making sure documentation is completed properly.

Maybe we need to resource the MWC etc better so that they are coming more often - or maybe we need to make sure that underperforming managers are hammered when things go wronf that they could have prevented?

[J-C]

Missed the original programme but caught up with it, I was gob smacked when watching, couldn't believe that there are still some cruel evil people living and working in these care homes. We've heard over the years of intolerable cruelty in some of these homes and indeed some people get charged years later but to see that even today it's still going on, it's just unbelievable. What makes it more unreal is that it's taking part in this country and not in some third world middle east country, this so called modern western best of everything country. That's all I have to say, I am dumbstruck with the evil and so called care these poor people have to put up with.:confused:

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-13848877

A residential hospital for vulnerable adults near Bristol where alleged abuse was secretly filmed by the BBC Panorama programme is to close on Friday.

you would think they would try and keep a purpose-built building open, who is it that actually owns the building(castlebeck just ran it as far as i'm aware) ? get in good decent caring people and run it properley.

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-13848877

A residential hospital for vulnerable adults near Bristol where alleged abuse was secretly filmed by the BBC Panorama programme is to close on Friday.

you would think they would try and keep a purpose-built building open, who is it that actually owns the building(castlebeck just ran it as far as i'm aware) ? get in good decent caring people and run it properley.

I think this, and the Southern Loss debacle, are great reasons why the stock exchange is not the best way to deliver compassionate services.

[cabbageandribs1875]

just thought i would resurrect this thread, remember it ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-20092894

Six out of 11 care workers who admitted a total of 38 charges of neglect or abuse of patients at a private hospital have been jailed.

big hard ****** cowardly bullies