Sectarianism in Scotland - event at Edinburgh University

[Drew]

Dear All,

Given the recent debate on the subject, I wanted to make you aware of an event which has been organised at the University of Edinburgh on the 23rd of this month which will attempt to offer productive and informed discussion on the topic of sectarianism in Scotland - both on and off the football pitch. All are welcome, tickets are free but please do register via the link below if you are interested. Would be great to get a strong Edinburgh football supporter presence along.

Cheers,
Drew

The Scottish-Irish Group
The Scottish Centre for Diaspora Studies
School of History, Classics and Archaeology
University of Edinburgh

presents

An Evening of Debate and Discussion on

SECTARIANISM IN SCOTLAND: MYTH or REALITY?

Monday 23 May 2011 at 6.00pm

University of Edinburgh

The major recent controversy over the perceived issue of sectarian problems in Scotland has stimulated much national soul-searching, media comment, both at home and abroad, and political reactions. But the voice of most of those in the universities who study this problem from an academic perspective has been little heard. This event will bring together a number of scholars from the University of Edinburgh with different views on this complex subject in an evening discussion to be chaired by the distinguished journalist and commentator, Joyce McMillan.

The members of the panel are:

Professor Thomas M Devine, Sir William Fraser Professor of Scottish History and Palaeography and

Director of the Scottish Centre of Diaspora Studies

Mr Owen Dudley Edwards, Honorary Fellow, School of History, Classics and Archaeology

Dr John Kelly, Lecturer in Sport and Recreation Business Management, School of Education

Dr Michael Rosie (tbc), Senior Lecturer in Sociology, School of Social and Political Science

In Part One the panel will be asked to address a series of key questions on this topic which are set out below. In Part Two a question and answer session will follow involving both audience and panellists.


* What is sectarianism?
* Scotland is the only jurisdiction where Irish Catholic and Protestants settled throughout the world which maintains an anti-sectarian policy at governmental level in 2011. Why?
* Is this issue essentially about football rivalry in the West of Scotland?
* ' Not sectarianism but blatant anti-Catholicism' (The Cardinal Archbishop of Edinburgh). The response of the panel?
* ' The Catholic [educational] system is the greatest example of institutional racism in the land ... and should be abolished forthwith' (Letter to The Scotsman, December, 2006). The response of the panel?

This is a free, but ticketed, event.

Given the current high-profile of this topic, demand for places is likely to be high. Early application is therefore strongly recommended in order to avoid disappointment.

Please book your place in advance at

www.shca.ed.ac.uk/centres/scdt/events.h ... nism230511

The venue will be confirmed once demand has been assessed.

Details will be emailed to you on the email address given when registering.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i imagine all they speakers will get sent parcel bombs as well

[Drew]

That's why we're trying to attract the right sort of audience!

[Keith_M]

Genuine question here. What do you hope to achieve? I'm afraid it sounds, pardon the pun, 'academic' to me.

Maybe you could add the question to your list:

"In what way is a group of well meaning intellectuals discussing sectarianism going to stop it being passed from father to son and mother to daughter in homes throughout Scotland?"

[Drew]

I'd say the more people who are actively trying to understand and challenge the issue the better, no?

Also, if the event draws a wider audience than simply an academic one (hence posting it on a football messageboard), it's not entirely "academic" and will help inform debate in other arenas.

Part of the reason I posted the link here was to try and attract a more varied audience who might ask questions like the one you just asked.

[jdships]

Genuine question here. What do you hope to achieve? I'm afraid it sounds, pardon the pun, 'academic' to me.

Maybe you could add the question to your list:

"In what way is a group of well meaning intellectuals discussing sectarianism going to stop it being passed from father to son and mother to daughter in homes throughout Scotland?"

Agree totally with what you say !
This problem starts " at your mothers knee " .
Last year I watched an orange parade where a youngster of no more than ten years of age , armed with a pair if cymbels , shouted at the appropriate time "NO SURRENDER " to be patted on the head by his doting mother .
What chance has that kid !
Likewise at a charity amateur football match recently young lad ( 9/10)came back to his parents beside me with blue raffle tickets and was told to take them f .....g back
I worked in a Leith shipyard as a teenager and one of the first questions I was asked was "whit fit dae ye kick with then ? - nothing to do with football :greengrin:

I have no relgious beliefs and while it may sound naive just can't get my head round this nonsense among gtwin men .

[Keith_M]

I'd say the more people who are actively trying to understand and challenge the issue the better, no?

Also, if the event draws a wider audience than simply an academic one (hence posting it on a football messageboard), it's not entirely "academic" and will help inform debate in other arenas.

Part of the reason I posted the link here was to try and attract a more varied audience who might ask questions like the one you just asked.

I'm sorry if I sound negative about it but the only people who are going to turn up are the people that are appalled by sectarianism. How do you plan to get the message across to those that hold those views?

I've personally tried reasoning with people that hold strongly felt views on the subject and it's a bit like hitting your head with a brick, the only pleasure you get is when you stop doing it.

Have you posted your message on Follow Follow and Kerrydale St? I think you might just find out what I'm talking about.

[The Harp]

Thanks for posting Drew. With such a distinguished panel it deserves to be well attended.
Jdships' post is pretty much spot on IMO. Kids will always be likely to inherit their parents' prejudices, unfortunately.

[Drew]

I'm sorry if I sound negative about it but the only people who are going to turn up are the people that are appalled by sectarianism. How do you plan to get the message across to those that hold those views?

I've personally tried reasoning with people that hold strongly felt views on the subject and it's a bit like hitting your head with a brick, the only pleasure you get is when you stop doing it.

Have you posted your message on Follow Follow and Kerrydale St? I think you might just find out what I'm talking about.

No worries, it's an important question and judging by your listed location, obviously one you can't ask in person.

Michael Rosie is actually of the Steve Bruce school of thought on the problem of sectarianism in Scotland - and argues it quite reasonably. In case you didn't see this a couple of weeks ago - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/24/scotland-sectarianism-research-data

I suspect we will post the message on those messageboards, but we have yet to discuss this fully - the event is not just about sectarianism in football so we don't want it flooded with football-based discussions, although John Kelly will undoubtedly provide interesting insights on that particular issue, as some of you may be aware if you recall his letter to the scotsman after the last derby.

In terms of the kids-parents angle, I think you can challenge that through peer groups. For example, if you have a kid whose parents are both vehemently anti-Catholic who mixes with kids who are more tolerant, there's a chance they might fall under their influence. As you'll have noticed above, the issue of separate schooling will also be raised.

Obviously the wider issue of solving such problems is far beyond the scope of this discussion, but we hope this to merely be the start of open fora on the subject, which members of hibs.net as well as other messageboards can engage with.

[Drew]

Last time I'll push this back up the board. For those who are attending, in case you hadn't read this, panel member John Kelly contributed an article to yesterday's Scotsman:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/theoldfirm/John-Kelly-Scotland39s-Shame-is.6767358.jp

[Peevemor]

Last time I'll push this back up the board. For those who are attending, in case you hadn't read this, panel member John Kelly contributed an article to yesterday's Scotsman:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/theoldfirm/John-Kelly-Scotland39s-Shame-is.6767358.jp

So the catholic/oirish are the victims? They have no blame in any of this? :rolleyes:

[Brizo]

An interesting panel many of whom it could cynically be argued , have made good wee careers for themselves on the back of the sectarian issue. :devil:

Strikes me as yet another love the sound of their own verbosity museli munchers academic love in. All beards and tweed jackets .... and thats just the women.

The only thing it will advance is the egos and academic reputations of those involved. It will have heehaw effect on doing anything to stop the problem of bigotry out in the real world.

Yours cynically

[Beefster]

So the catholic/oirish are the victims? They have no blame in any of this? :rolleyes:

No, it's obviously the sectarian bigots that are the victims and all the fault of the Catholics......

[hibsbollah]

What Kelly is saying is that it IS possible to celebrate a clubs cultural or ethnic identity(as happens all over the world) without that leading to problems. Its when that identity is used as a stick to beat others that it becomes a problem. I agree with him completely.

[Peevemor]

No, it's obviously the sectarian bigots that are the victims and all the fault of the Catholics......

All I was getting at is that in the entire article, he doesn't acknowledge that the "catholic" side are also at fault.

I very much Scottish, but have Irish catholic roots (both sets of paternal great grandparents). I'm totally comfortable with this and cringe at the plastic paddys at Celtic Park and elsewhere.

[Drew]

An interesting panel many of whom it could cynically be argued , have made good wee careers for themselves on the back of the sectarian issue. :devil:

Strikes me as yet another love the sound of their own verbosity museli munchers academic love in. All beards and tweed jackets .... and thats just the women.

The only thing it will advance is the egos and academic reputations of those involved. It will have heehaw effect on doing anything to stop the problem of bigotry out in the real world.

Yours cynically

As I sort of said above - surely it's better to have the issue challenged at all levels in order to try and effect some sort of lasting change. The purpose of this event is to stimulate debate and foster understanding. It's very defeatist to take the "it wont make a difference in the real world, so lets not bother" line. But of course, feel free not to come. I thought that seeing as other football forums had been invited (indeed, Kerrydale street has been aware of the event for about a week) it was only fair to invite any hibees who might be interested.

[Beefster]

All I was getting at is that in the entire article, he doesn't acknowledge that the "catholic" side are also at fault.

I very much Scottish, but have Irish catholic roots (both sets of paternal great grandparents). I'm totally comfortable with this and cringe at the plastic paddys at Celtic Park and elsewhere.

I think part of the problem is that some folk see 'Celtic' and 'Catholic' as interchangeable. They're not.

PS This isn't a go at you btw. As a Catholic, I'm just fed up reading that the 'Catholic' side are to blame too when folk actually mean the 'Celtic' side.