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Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 08:39 AM
"not disappointed", "not being harsh", "a good squad will change everything"...

Was I at a different match Colin, not ONE single shot on target.... How can you not be disappointed in that???

Something fundementally wrong......

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 08:41 AM
He has now lost 58% of his 31 matches in charge, absolutely horrendous. Hoping for the best but do I trust him to do what is necessary during the summer to dramatically change our fortunes? Not really.

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 08:49 AM
He has now lost 58% of his 31 matches in charge, absolutely horrendous. Hoping for the best but do I trust him to do what is necessary during the summer to dramatically change our fortunes? Not really.

1 win out of the last 9 matches, and 1 point out of the last 5 against bottom six clubs..... absolutely horrendous as you say....

blackpoolhibs
12-05-2011, 08:54 AM
Surely we dont have another slaver? How was his plan B last night?:devil:

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 08:58 AM
Surely we dont have another slaver? How was his plan B last night?:devil:

Plan B would maybe have been his choice of music on the team bus???

blackpoolhibs
12-05-2011, 09:00 AM
Plan B would maybe have been his choice of music on the team bus???

I'm not up with the music, is that what you kids of today are listening to?:confused:

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 09:04 AM
1 win out of the last 9 matches, and 1 point out of the last 5 against bottom six clubs..... absolutely horrendous as you say....

The trouble is, he doesn't get a fresh start with next season either - we won our last match of last season and our first league one of this, but the horrible home run that we were on was continually brought up by fans and media alike.

If we don't win on Saturday, we go in to next season with 1 win in 10, and that bring it's own pressures. We could easily start next season with a couple of tricky fixtures as well.

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 09:12 AM
I'm not up with the music, is that what you kids of today are listening to?:confused:

Yes G, not Neil Sedaka like you older boys:greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 09:14 AM
The trouble is, he doesn't get a fresh start with next season either - we won our last match of last season and our first league one of this, but the horrible home run that we were on was continually brought up by fans and media alike.

If we don't win on Saturday, we go in to next season with 1 win in 10, and that bring it's own pressures. We could easily start next season with a couple of tricky fixtures as well.

Agreed, which makes signing quality in the transfer window imperative

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 09:23 AM
Agreed, which makes signing quality in the transfer window imperative

Absolutely - however any optimism that I had regarding the quality of player we will bring in and Calderwood's ability to improve things has all but gone.

Let's be honest, not a single person on this board would have believed that after 8 months CC's record would be thus: -

P 31 W 8 D 5 L 18

Win percentage - 26%; Loss percentage 58%

What's even more unbelievable is the amount of people defending him. I'll not knock anyone for backing him and I don't want him sacked, but no one can convince me there's any grounds for optimism.

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 09:26 AM
Absolutely - however any optimism that I had regarding the quality of player we will bring in and Calderwood's ability to improve things has all but gone.

Let's be honest, not a single person on this board would have believed that after 8 months CC's record would be thus: -

P 31 W 8 D 5 L 18

Win percentage - 26%; Loss percentage 58%

What's even more unbelievable is the amount of people defending him. I'll not knock anyone for backing him and I don't want him sacked, but no one can convince me there's any grounds for optimism.

Certainly no grounds for optimism at present, but we have to see who is brought in and how we start the new campaign.... It might turn out OK, but then again:devil:

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 09:31 AM
Certainly no grounds for optimism at present, but we have to see who is brought in and how we start the new campaign.... It might turn out OK, but then again:devil:

I'm generally really very optimistic when it comes to Hibs, I was looking forward to this season! But the last 4 years has taken its toll, there's no reason to believe that we will get significantly stronger, we can only hope.

It seems our best chance of our league position improving will come from Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock losing key players - though who's to say that they won't replace them well? Dundee Utd certainly have proved more than capable.

bawheid
12-05-2011, 09:32 AM
Win percentage - 26%; Loss percentage 58%

What's even more unbelievable is the amount of people defending him. I'll not knock anyone for backing him and I don't want him sacked, but no one can convince me there's any grounds for optimism.

Especially when you compare with previous managers, who were hounded out of the club.

Hughes - 35%/42% (top 4 finish)
Paatelainen - 31%/40% (top 6 finish)

The problem here has not been the managers, it's been the inability of the fans and board to see a job through.

Captain Trips
12-05-2011, 09:46 AM
Absolutely - however any optimism that I had regarding the quality of player we will bring in and Calderwood's ability to improve things has all but gone.


Let's be honest, not a single person on this board would have believed that after 8 months CC's record would be thus: -

P 31 W 8 D 5 L 18

Win percentage - 26%; Loss percentage 58%

What's even more unbelievable is the amount of people defending him. I'll not knock anyone for backing him and I don't want him sacked, but no one can convince me there's any grounds for optimism.

I would agree, my hopes for next season are 100% based on hope alone. I havent seen anything really in 8 months to suggest to why we should finish higher next season. You would like to along with the hope take something tangible in along side it to say we might do well because of this or that.

I fear along with the hope the only tangible is lots of poor displays.

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 09:48 AM
Especially when you compare with previous managers, who were hounded out of the club.

Hughes - 35%/42% (top 4 finish)
Paatelainen - 31%/40% (top 6 finish)

The problem here has not been the managers, it's been the inability of the fans and board to see a job through.

Board especially more so than the fans, the fans deserve much much better fare than has been served up

Baldy Foghorn
12-05-2011, 09:49 AM
I would agree, my hopes for next season are 100% based on hope alone. I havent seen anything really in 8 months to suggest to why we should finish higher next season. You would like to along with the hope take something tangible in along side it to say we might do well because of this or that.

I fear along with the hope the only tangible is lots of poor displays.

:top marks

Nail hit firmly on the napper

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 09:51 AM
Especially when you compare with previous managers, who were hounded out of the club.

Hughes - 35%/42% (top 4 finish)
Paatelainen - 31%/40% (top 6 finish)

The problem here has not been the managers, it's been the inability of the fans and board to see a job through.

The football under Mixu was utterly brutal but I would have felt far more optimistic had he taken us into a second full season than I do now. The end of last season was horrendous but we still finished in one of our highest positions ever in the SPL and qualified for Europe.

Currently, Calderwood has no redeeming features - as I pointed out in another thread yesterday, a Forest supporting journalist in an article currently on the BBC Football page described Calderwood as 'unconvincing'. That now looks like a compliment considering what he has served up at ER.

Yet, whilst our previous two managers (who served Hibs well and played in legendary derby wins) were dismissed and insulted in quite pathetic fashion on here, lacerated for such things as their weight and the way they spoke, Calderwood is spared. I do not wish him to be subjected to similar abuse, but the fact that so many who were clamouring for Hughes to get removed do not feel the same about CC is truly perplexing.

I'm still behind CC (just), but it's looking like it will take something truly miraculous for him to turn us around.

JimBHibees
12-05-2011, 10:04 AM
The football under Mixu was utterly brutal but I would have felt far more optimistic had he taken us into a second full season than I do now. The end of last season was horrendous but we still finished in one of our highest positions ever in the SPL and qualified for Europe.

Currently, Calderwood has no redeeming features - as I pointed out in another thread yesterday, a Forest supporting journalist in an article currently on the BBC Football page described Calderwood as 'unconvincing'. That now looks like a compliment considering what he has served up at ER.

Yet, whilst our previous two managers (who served Hibs well and played in legendary derby wins) were dismissed and insulted in quite pathetic fashion on here, lacerated for such things as their weight and the way they spoke, Calderwood is spared. I do not wish him to be subjected to similar abuse, but the fact that so many who were clamouring for Hughes to get removed do not feel the same about CC is truly perplexing.
I'm still behind CC (just), but it's looking like it will take something truly miraculous for him to turn us around.

Staggering comment, Hughes had any number of transfer windows and when he left which almost everyone agreed should happen we were in complete freefall. Calderwood has done worse than hoped no doubt but he has managed to keep us up and brought an improvement with a number of signings in January. We are finishing very poorly of that there is no doubt but he must be given a chance to oversee the massive transition in players in the next couple of months and mould them into something resembling a team. His transfers were in the main good for a short time however I wouldnt underestimate the management job he has had with regard to players knowing they are leaving and the uncertainty of not knowing what is going on wiht others.

The best thing that can happen is for the league to end and the unwanted leaving the building allowing him a bit of leeway to plan for next season including bringing in his own players who will improve us into a team probably nearer the 5th, 6th position. Personally think he can do it but the fans need to get off his back and give him time, not something Hibs fans are known for.

bawheid
12-05-2011, 10:08 AM
Yet, whilst our previous two managers (who served Hibs well and played in legendary derby wins) were dismissed and insulted in quite pathetic fashion on here, lacerated for such things as their weight and the way they spoke, Calderwood is spared. I do not wish him to be subjected to similar abuse, but the fact that so many who were clamouring for Hughes to get removed do not feel the same about CC is truly perplexing.

I'm still behind CC (just), but it's looking like it will take something truly miraculous for him to turn us around.

Good post Stevie, and I totally agree with the bit in bold.

I'm not for getting rid of yet another manager. My view is we ran the last two out of town far too quickly.

When you look back at the history of Hibernian FC, we sure know how to treat our legends. From Gordon Smith to Joe Baker right through to Sauzee, Paatelainen and Hughes.

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 10:09 AM
Staggering comment, Hughes had any number of transfer windows and when he left which almost everyone agreed should happen we were in complete freefall. Calderwood has done worse than hoped no doubt but he has managed to keep us up and brought an improvement with a number of signings in January. We are finishing very poorly of that there is no doubt but he must be given a chance to oversee the massive transition in players in the next couple of months and mould them into something resembling a team. His transfers were in the main good for a short time however I wouldnt underestimate the management job he has had with regard to players knowing they are leaving and the uncertainty of not knowing what is going on wiht others.

The best thing that can happen is for the league to end and the unwanted leaving the building allowing him a bit of leeway to plan for next season including bringing in his own players who will improve us into a team probably nearer the 5th, 6th position. Personally think he can do it but the fans need to get off his back and give him time, not something Hibs fans are known for.

Hardly - we have been worse than we were under Hughes.

There has been no improvement at all. I've said this before but we thought that CC might be a manager to have us winning ugly - losing ugly was never in the equation, but that is all he has served us up.

JimBHibees
12-05-2011, 10:13 AM
Hardly.

Good point. :greengrin

I think it is the guy must be given the chance to see the job through properly and not binned before he has the chance to do it. I would have liked to have seen better results however he was brought in to keep us in the league and oversee a massive player transition which hasnt taken place yet. If by Xmas we are still junk and no improvement is obvious then he can be questioned whether he is the man for the job IMO.

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 10:15 AM
Good point. :greengrin

I think it is the guy must be given the chance to see the job through properly and not binned before he has the chance to do it. I would have liked to have seen better results however he was brought in to keep us in the league and oversee a massive player transition which hasnt taken place yet. If by Xmas we are still junk and no improvement is obvious then he can be questioned whether he is the man for the job IMO.

I did elaborate, eventually :greengrin

I will not knock you for backing him. But to say that he was brought in to keep us in the SPL is not true. It wasn't Hughes' remit at the start of the season, and it certainly wasn't Calderwood's ten games later.

Phil MaGlass
12-05-2011, 10:19 AM
Maybe its just me, but Im confident for the beginning of the season, CC has had to completely turn the team upside down, inside out, he cant bring in everyone he wants until the close season, he is giving the young guys a run out, guys he wont be using regularly next year, he has brought in a few and they, IMO, look like they could do a good job next season. We cant keep chasing managers out the door all the time, we need a settled team/management team. Gie the guy a bit of time to build the team he sees as his own, then judge him.

EasterRoad4Ever
12-05-2011, 10:20 AM
The trouble is, he doesn't get a fresh start with next season either - we won our last match of last season and our first league one of this, but the horrible home run that we were on was continually brought up by fans and media alike.

If we don't win on Saturday, we go in to next season with 1 win in 10, and that bring it's own pressures. We could easily start next season with a couple of tricky fixtures as well.

It does looks like a mirror image of the Hughes debacle. If he doesn't sort it out in the summer, CC could be gone by Oct.

JimBHibees
12-05-2011, 10:21 AM
I did elaborate, eventually :greengrin

I will not knock you for backing him. But to say that he was brought in to keep us in the SPL is not true. It wasn't Hughes' remit at the start of the season, and it certainly wasn't Calderwood's ten games later.

Your probably right when he started however that was the case when he was able to bring in some of his own signings. Lets see where we are next season.

matty_f
12-05-2011, 10:37 AM
Surely we dont have another slaver? How was his plan B last night?:devil:
:agree:

Like groundhog day.

Sir David Gray
12-05-2011, 10:50 AM
To put it mildly, the signs are not great for next season but the two things going for him is that he did inherit a poor squad and he has only had one transfer window to bring in his own players.

If we are in the position where we are just now, by Christmas time, then we should probably look at things. I said it a while back and I'll say it again.

If Calderwood does turn out to be a flop, we need to see big changes at boardroom level as well because that would be 3 managers in a row who will have turned out to be failures and the board have to be held responsible for making these massive decisions.

Craig_in_Prague
12-05-2011, 10:54 AM
since 2007 we've been on a nice downward spiral.

Can't see us improving.
Not enough quality in the side or coming through and we won't sign sufficient quality.

We're simply another bog standard SPL side.

California-Hibs
12-05-2011, 10:55 AM
It was a very worrying interview indeed. Almost Yogi-like. Pleased with THAT?! Honestly what game was he watching?! We need HUGE changes made to that team, they are so so brutal its painful, and sorry but i included everyone in that statement. Even peoples favorites - Hanlon & Wotherspoon etc.

Franck Stanton
12-05-2011, 11:09 AM
This is the most important close-season our club has faced for many a long year, if not ever in our history. With the ammount of players already released, have still to be released no other manager in my living memory has had the opportunity to completly overhaul his playing staff in one fell swoop. Do I personally think that CC is up to the task? Can't answer that question, he has only had 1 transfer window, a January one at that when there aren't as many bargains going about, so I suppose we will just have to wait and see what this window brings. I hope to god for everyones sake he gets it right, after all it is only the SPL we are talking about - the standard of football is dire and with a wee bit investment and football know-how with quality players and not just the usual journeymen we have a tendancy to sign we could quite easily be fighting it out for 3rd/4th every seaqson, if [ dare I say it] even splitting the ugly sisters.

BSEJVT
12-05-2011, 11:23 AM
This is the most important close-season our club has faced for many a long year, if not ever in our history. With the ammount of players already released, have still to be released no other manager in my living memory has had the opportunity to completly overhaul his playing staff in one fell swoop. Do I personally think that CC is up to the task? Can't answer that question, he has only had 1 transfer window, a January one at that when there aren't as many bargains going about, so I suppose we will just have to wait and see what this window brings. I hope to god for everyones sake he gets it right, after all it is only the SPL we are talking about - the standard of football is dire and with a wee bit investment and football know-how with quality players and not just the usual journeymen we have a tendancy to sign we could quite easily be fighting it out for 3rd/4th every seaqson, if [ dare I say it] even splitting the ugly sisters.

The most worrying thing for me over CC's appointment is the lack of fight /commitment exhibited by his teams since taking over, (and Hughes's teams before in fairness)

I had thought that a guy who slapped himself around the coupon pre-match as a player to get wound up for the battle would have at least been able to improve that.

I havent seen any signs to date.

As I believe we will continue our recent policy of signing lesser lights the man in charge will need to get them up for the fight.

If he can do that we have a chance, if he cant we are relegation candidates (again)

ahibby
12-05-2011, 11:31 AM
C'mon guys, look at the bigger picture here. Since we built up enough points to secure our place in the SPL, I think we have only won one game. Which means, we have saved a small fortune in win bonuses, intentionally, so that the club can afford to pay out all the win bonuses coming next year. I thought that was obvious? The other thing is that since sufficient points were accumulated many players have been told their services are no longer required and that has an affect.

Stevie Reid
12-05-2011, 11:37 AM
The most worrying thing for me over CC's appointment is the lack of fight /commitment exhibited by his teams since taking over, (and Hughes's teams before in fairness)

I had thought that a guy who slapped himself around the coupon pre-match as a player to get wound up for the battle would have at least been able to improve that.

I havent seen any signs to date.

As I believe we will continue our recent policy of signing lesser lights the man in charge will need to get them up for the fight.

If he can do that we have a chance, if he cant we are relegation candidates (again)

Agreed. The very, very least you need in the SPL is workrate and spirit - Calderwood has instilled neither in his 8 months in charge.

Speedway
12-05-2011, 11:57 AM
Speaking ahead of the match at Inverness, Calderwood said: "We know what we've got building here, but we've got to produce it.

"It will be difficult for us next year. I envisage a tough season in terms of getting to the level where everyone expects us to be, but I'm quite excited that we might get there."

A host of players out of contract at the end of the season have already been told they are surplus to requirements, while Calderwood is waiting until after Saturday's final game of the campaign against Aberdeen to determine the futures of Derek Riordan and Liam Miller, among others.

But, irrespective of the make-up of his squad next term, top six of the SPL is the minimum target for Calderwood.

He added: "That's got to be the least of our ambitions. We'll strive for that.

"We're definitely capable of getting in there, but it's not a given."

After missing out on the top six this term, Calderwood had hoped to finish the campaign on a high in the five post-split games.

It has not happened, but the former Northampton and Nottingham Forest boss insists the period has been beneficial.

He added: "We're not getting results and points we would want.

"Is that the most important thing to me? No.

"It's the development of the club and an opportunity.

"We can suffer reverses and they don't mean too much at the minute.

"At the end it's a record that will always be labelled with me and I'll have to accept that.

"In terms of going forward I think what we'll gain out of it will be better than the points tally and my individual record - that's inconsequential at this moment."



Calderwood praised Inverness for wrapping up seventh place, with Caley Thistle holding an unassailable lead with two games remaining.

He said: "They've had a terrific season. The last couple of results have topped off what has been a fine season for them.

"It was based on their away form earlier in the season but it's always difficult to go there and not many teams come back with three points.

"We'll need to try and do something that hasn't happened too often before."


http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8670_6925483,00.html

Andy74
12-05-2011, 12:19 PM
Especially when you compare with previous managers, who were hounded out of the club.

Hughes - 35%/42% (top 4 finish)
Paatelainen - 31%/40% (top 6 finish)

The problem here has not been the managers, it's been the inability of the fans and board to see a job through.

Yep

BEEJ
12-05-2011, 05:04 PM
What's even more unbelievable is the amount of people defending him [CC]. I'll not knock anyone for backing him and I don't want him sacked, but no one can convince me there's any grounds for optimism.


Especially when you compare with previous managers, who were hounded out of the club.

The problem here has not been the managers, it's been the inability of the fans and board to see a job through.


Yet, whilst our previous two managers (who served Hibs well and played in legendary derby wins) were dismissed and insulted in quite pathetic fashion on here, lacerated for such things as their weight and the way they spoke, Calderwood is spared. I do not wish him to be subjected to similar abuse, but the fact that so many who were clamouring for Hughes to get removed do not feel the same about CC is truly perplexing.
So let's see if I've got the gist of this argument.

Point 1: Previous Hibs Managers have been hounded out of their jobs far too soon by an impatient and intolerant support who hold completely unreasonable expectations.
(Yogi was 'ousted' having had three transfer windows, Mixu after two and a bit transfer windows.)

Point 2: The Hibs support are guilty of outrageous inconsistency because they are not already standing outside the West Stand in their thousands baying for CC's blood.
(CC has had one transfer window so far.)

Point 3: But, of course, there is no suggestion of there being the desire for such a witch-hunt. None whatsoever. Absolutely not!

So either the much maligned Hibs support are actually more tolerant than they are given credit for here and they recognise that a Manager needs at least a year (or alternatively, at least two transfer windows) to demonstrate what he can do, or perhaps it's dawning upon the majority that we can't keep shipping managers at the same rate - we're learning to be more patient! :greengrin

You can't have it both ways. You either give the support some credit for showing more tolerance than you actually are during this particular managerial reign or you succumb to your baser instincts and call for CC's sacking, in so doing demonstrating the lack of patience that you so deride in others.


I'm not for getting rid of yet another manager. My view is we ran the last two out of town far too quickly.

When you look back at the history of Hibernian FC, we sure know how to treat our legends. From Gordon Smith to Joe Baker right through to Sauzee, Paatelainen and Hughes.
:tee hee: I think you're guilty of stretching your argument a bit there. Legend? Liked him as a player, but he does not belong in that list of names.


It does looks like a mirror image of the Hughes debacle. If he doesn't sort it out in the summer, CC could be gone by Oct.
100% correct :top marks If CC doesn't do the business during the summer window and we continue this kind of form through the first set of SPL fixtures next season, the Hibs support will have lost any faith in him and in time-honoured fashion will be calling for him to leave. Normality will have been restored.

It seems that that this scenario can't come soon enough for some folks. Then they can start to criticise the fans again for not giving new managers enough time ...... :wink:

sesoim
12-05-2011, 06:04 PM
Let's be honest, not a single person on this board would have believed that after 8 months CC's record would be thus: -

P 31 W 8 D 5 L 18

Win percentage - 26%; Loss percentage 58%

What's even more unbelievable is the amount of people defending him. I'll not knock anyone for backing him and I don't want him sacked, but no one can convince me there's any grounds for optimism.


Erm, I can't agree there. I was against his appointment from the start. It's just been another sorry, disastrous period in the history of Hibs brought on by Petrie's inability to appoint a decent manager.

It's just so frustrating when a half decent manger could easily get us 4th place with the wage budget we have at the moment. CC might fluke a few decent signings in the summer (or Adams might save us), but I just don't see us ever getting back to where we should be with CC in charge.

sesoim
12-05-2011, 06:07 PM
Especially when you compare with previous managers, who were hounded out of the club.

Hughes - 35%/42% (top 4 finish)
Paatelainen - 31%/40% (top 6 finish)

The problem here has not been the managers, it's been the inability of the fans and board to see a job through.


NO! It is the inability of Petrie to make a decent appointment. I'll admit I did want Mixu, and I was shocked how badly he did his job, but Collins, Hughes and CC were the wrong appointments, and this should have been obvious to our chairman from the start.

bawheid
12-05-2011, 06:18 PM
So let's see if I've got the gist of this argument.

Not really, but nice try. :wink:



Point 1: Previous Hibs Managers have been hounded out of their jobs far too soon by an impatient and intolerant support who hold completely unreasonable expectations.
(Yogi was 'ousted' having had three transfer windows, Mixu after two and a bit transfer windows.)


Correct. On both occasions the job wasn't complete, in my view. The board saw the 90% polls and heard the boos from the stands and, ultimately, shat it.



Point 2: The Hibs support are guilty of outrageous inconsistency because they are not already standing outside the West Stand in their thousands baying for CC's blood.
(CC has had one transfer window so far.)


No, but unfortunately some already are calling for his head, or suggesting he gets a few games at the start of next season to "turn things around". This is a nonsense. It could take years to create conditions at the club which will bring success. Time I think the previous managers could have been given.



Point 3: But, of course, there is no suggestion of there being the desire for such a witch-hunt. None whatsoever. Absolutely not!


It's what the Hibs support does best is it not? I have no desire for a witch-hunt - it harms the club. Shamefully, you can see it starting to build already though.



So either the much maligned Hibs support are actually more tolerant than they are given credit for here and they recognise that a Manager needs at least a year (or alternatively, at least two transfer windows) to demonstrate what he can do, or perhaps it's dawning upon the majority that we can't keep shipping managers at the same rate - we're learning to be more patient! :greengrin

You can't have it both ways. You either give the support some credit for showing more tolerance than you actually are during this particular managerial reign or you succumb to your baser instincts and call for CC's sacking, in so doing demonstrating the lack of patience that you so deride in others.


I certainly don't want to see another sacking at Easter Road. I reckon there's been far too many of those recently.


:tee hee: I think you're guilty of stretching your argument a bit there. Legend? Liked him as a player, but he does not belong in that list of names.

Point taken, he's not a legend. A decent servent to Hibs though, derided and ridiculed towards the end. The point still stands.



100% correct :top marks If CC doesn't do the business during the summer window and we continue this kind of form through the first set of SPL fixtures next season, the Hibs support will have lost any faith in him and in time-honoured fashion will be calling for him to leave. Normality will have been restored.

It seems that that this scenario can't come soon enough for some folks. Then they can start to criticise the fans again for not giving new managers enough time ...... :wink:

Again, the last thing I want to see is another managerial sacking. The board need to show some balls and see the thing through. Just like they should have done before...

Thigh ar la
13-05-2011, 10:28 AM
One thing that struck me the other night from sitting in the main stand was that Caley seemed to play for their manager in the sense that when Butcher shouted instructions you could see the players listening. They seemed to have a certain spirit about them and whether Hibs lack of spirit is down to Calderwood or an awful collection of players remains to be seen. It is worrying that he said he is satisfied with that because it must be one of the poorest group of players I have ever seen and also one of the poorest collective attitudes as well!

Stevie Reid
13-05-2011, 10:42 AM
So let's see if I've got the gist of this argument.

Point 1: Previous Hibs Managers have been hounded out of their jobs far too soon by an impatient and intolerant support who hold completely unreasonable expectations.
(Yogi was 'ousted' having had three transfer windows, Mixu after two and a bit transfer windows.)

Point 2: The Hibs support are guilty of outrageous inconsistency because they are not already standing outside the West Stand in their thousands baying for CC's blood.
(CC has had one transfer window so far.)

Point 3: But, of course, there is no suggestion of there being the desire for such a witch-hunt. None whatsoever. Absolutely not!

So either the much maligned Hibs support are actually more tolerant than they are given credit for here and they recognise that a Manager needs at least a year (or alternatively, at least two transfer windows) to demonstrate what he can do, or perhaps it's dawning upon the majority that we can't keep shipping managers at the same rate - we're learning to be more patient! :greengrin

You can't have it both ways. You either give the support some credit for showing more tolerance than you actually are during this particular managerial reign or you succumb to your baser instincts and call for CC's sacking, in so doing demonstrating the lack of patience that you so deride in others.


:tee hee: I think you're guilty of stretching your argument a bit there. Legend? Liked him as a player, but he does not belong in that list of names.


100% correct :top marks If CC doesn't do the business during the summer window and we continue this kind of form through the first set of SPL fixtures next season, the Hibs support will have lost any faith in him and in time-honoured fashion will be calling for him to leave. Normality will have been restored.

It seems that that this scenario can't come soon enough for some folks. Then they can start to criticise the fans again for not giving new managers enough time ...... :wink:

For clarification purposes, please allow me to state my stance again. My points were simply that many of those who were fiercely crtitical of Yogi are now defending Calderwood with no basis, which I find strange - those who were impatient with Yogi are now asking people to be patient with Calderwood, despite the fact that we have been horrendous under him, with no signs of progress whatsover.

I find it strange that the people who criticised Yogi so vociferously do not either give CC similar criticism, or revise their opinion of Yogi getting us to 4th place not being any kind of achievement - they are 'having it both ways' if you like. People have told me that they'll reserve judgement until CC has had as many transfer windows as Yogi - to them I speculated that Yogi would never have got to 3 transfer windows had he enjoyed as poor a start as Calderwood.

So those are my points, as they have always been - and in conclusion, I do not want Yogi back, nor do I want CC sacked. I have merely been highlighting inconsistencies in people's assessments of our last two managers, which I believe are borne out of simple prejudice against/dislike of Hughes.

blackpoolhibs
13-05-2011, 10:56 AM
For clarification purposes, please allow me to state my stance again. My points were simply that many of those who were fiercely crtitical of Yogi are now defending Calderwood with no basis, which I find strange - those who were impatient with Yogi are now asking people to be patient with Calderwood, despite the fact that we have been horrendous under him, with no signs of progress whatsover.

I find it strange that the people who criticised Yogi so vociferously do not either give CC similar criticism, or revise their opinion of Yogi getting us to 4th place not being any kind of achievement - they are 'having it both ways' if you like. People have told me that they'll reserve judgement until CC has had as many transfer windows as Yogi - to them I speculated that Yogi would never have got to 3 transfer windows had he enjoyed as poor a start as Calderwood.

So those are my points, as they have always been - and in conclusion, I do not want Yogi back, nor do I want CC sacked. I have merely been highlighting inconsistencies in people's assessments of our last two managers, which I believe are borne out of simple prejudice against/dislike of Hughes.

Post of the year imo. :top marks

Stan Laurel
13-05-2011, 11:23 AM
I fear Calderwood is another "treading water" appointment by the board. By all accounts he was 2nd behind Hughes in that interview process and has now taken over from Hughes who interviewed better but has largely been seen as a failure. Calderwood to me, like Hughes, just doesn't appear to be of the managerial standing to manage a club like Hibs.
IMO he's a bit of a Jim Duffy appointment.
He did well at Northampton, a club who at this stage I don't expect have much by way of expectations of qualifying for Europe or reaching cup finals or maybe just winning a derby. He then went to Notts Forest and messed up promotion at the first attempt thereby incurring the wrath of the Forest support which in fairness he calmed a little the folowing season by gaining promotion to the Championship. At Forest though the levels of expectation are even greater than that given their previous standing and Calderwood couldn't take them further.
He couldn't manage the pressure of expectation and by God whetehr rightly or wrongly he's got that in sackloads at Hibernian.
I don't blame Colin Calderwood for where Hibernian find themselves at present. I have no doubt he is a hard working guy who will do what he can to the best of his ability and I'd love to see him silence his doubters. I do fear however that his track record suggests he just may not be the man we need. I long for the day when our board actually look to spend a little more money in appointing an experienced manager with a good track record of success at a decent level. We can't afford to keep trying inexperience in the hope of finding one Tony Mowbray in amongst a succession of Bobby Williamsons!

BEEJ
13-05-2011, 12:07 PM
For clarification purposes, please allow me to state my stance again. My points were simply that many of those who were fiercely crtitical of Yogi are now defending Calderwood with no basis, which I find strange - those who were impatient with Yogi are now asking people to be patient with Calderwood, despite the fact that we have been horrendous under him, with no signs of progress whatsover.

I find it strange that the people who criticised Yogi so vociferously do not either give CC similar criticism, or revise their opinion of Yogi getting us to 4th place not being any kind of achievement - they are 'having it both ways' if you like. People have told me that they'll reserve judgement until CC has had as many transfer windows as Yogi - to them I speculated that Yogi would never have got to 3 transfer windows had he enjoyed as poor a start as Calderwood.

So those are my points, as they have always been - and in conclusion, I do not want Yogi back, nor do I want CC sacked. I have merely been highlighting inconsistencies in people's assessments of our last two managers, which I believe are borne out of simple prejudice against/dislike of Hughes.
Ah, so that's the real core of the debate.

The support were prejudiced against Yogi because he wasn't Hibs minded (well, no, he was actually), because he was a West coast import (no again, he was Leith born and bred) because he had never played for the club (this is a struggle, isn't it?). Perhaps his slight speech impediment was the reason. :wink:

Nothing to do with the man's failings to pull his team out of a steep nose-dive from mid February 2010 or his wasting of our player budget last summer on two profile signings of dubious quality when his future actually depended on bolstering his jaded squad through player acquisition? No, the Hibs support all had it in for Yogi from the very beginning.

Wow! :greengrin

And the Board's role in all this seems strangely to be of second-order importance.

But despite all the sophisticated caveats, the bottom line is you won't be happy until the Hibs support show that 'consistency' (as you interpret it) and give CC that same 'vociferous criticism' until he either shapes up or ships out - probably the latter.

Then, instead of criticising the support for being inconsistent, we can switch to bemoaning how they don't give our new Managers any time at all.

You are a Hughes man and you fundamentally believe that he should still be here - we couldn't have done any worse etc. Whereas others, like myself, are just delighted that the budget available to the club this summer is not in the hands of someone who thought de Graaf and Hart would be good additions to the squad.

Stevie Reid
13-05-2011, 12:37 PM
Ah, so that's the real core of the debate.

The support were prejudiced against Yogi because he wasn't Hibs minded (well, no, he was actually), because he was a West coast import (no again, he was Leith born and bred) because he had never played for the club (this is a struggle, isn't it?). Perhaps his slight speech impediment was the reason. :wink:

Nothing to do with the man's failings to pull his team out of a steep nose-dive from mid February 2010 or his wasting of our player budget last summer on two profile signings of dubious quality when his future actually depended on bolstering his jaded squad through player acquisition? No, the Hibs support all had it in for Yogi from the very beginning.

Wow! :greengrin

And the Board's role in all this seems strangely to be of second-order importance.

But despite all the sophisticated caveats, the bottom line is you won't be happy until the Hibs support show that 'consistency' (as you interpret it) and give CC that same 'vociferous criticism' until he either shapes up or ships out - probably the latter.

Then, instead of criticising the support for being inconsistent, we can switch to bemoaning how they don't give our new Managers any time at all.

You are a Hughes man and you fundamentally believe that he should still be here - we couldn't have done any worse etc. Whereas others, like myself, are just delighted that the budget available to the club this summer is not in the hands of someone who thought de Graaf and Hart would be good additions to the squad.

What an utterly ridiculous post - I outlined exactly what my stance is in the previous post and you respond by telling me what my stance actually is. Pathetic.

Stevie Reid
13-05-2011, 01:10 PM
For clarification purposes, please allow me to state my stance again. My points were simply that many of those who were fiercely crtitical of Yogi are now defending Calderwood with no basis, which I find strange - those who were impatient with Yogi are now asking people to be patient with Calderwood, despite the fact that we have been horrendous under him, with no signs of progress whatsover.

I find it strange that the people who criticised Yogi so vociferously do not either give CC similar criticism, or revise their opinion of Yogi getting us to 4th place not being any kind of achievement - they are 'having it both ways' if you like. People have told me that they'll reserve judgement until CC has had as many transfer windows as Yogi - to them I speculated that Yogi would never have got to 3 transfer windows had he enjoyed as poor a start as Calderwood.

So those are my points, as they have always been - and in conclusion, I do not want Yogi back, nor do I want CC sacked. I have merely been highlighting inconsistencies in people's assessments of our last two managers, which I believe are borne out of simple prejudice against/dislike of Hughes.


Ah, so that's the real core of the debate.

The support were prejudiced against Yogi because he wasn't Hibs minded (well, no, he was actually), because he was a West coast import (no again, he was Leith born and bred) because he had never played for the club (this is a struggle, isn't it?). Perhaps his slight speech impediment was the reason. :wink:

Nothing to do with the man's failings to pull his team out of a steep nose-dive from mid February 2010 or his wasting of our player budget last summer on two profile signings of dubious quality when his future actually depended on bolstering his jaded squad through player acquisition? No, the Hibs support all had it in for Yogi from the very beginning.

Wow! :greengrin

And the Board's role in all this seems strangely to be of second-order importance.

But despite all the sophisticated caveats, the bottom line is you won't be happy until the Hibs support show that 'consistency' (as you interpret it) and give CC that same 'vociferous criticism' until he either shapes up or ships out - probably the latter.

Then, instead of criticising the support for being inconsistent, we can switch to bemoaning how they don't give our new Managers any time at all.

You are a Hughes man and you fundamentally believe that he should still be here - we couldn't have done any worse etc. Whereas others, like myself, are just delighted that the budget available to the club this summer is not in the hands of someone who thought de Graaf and Hart would be good additions to the squad.

There's the two posts again, just to fully highlight how ridiculous your responses are.

For the record, I have never stated that we could not do any worse under Hughes, and I do not wish Calderwood to receive vociferous abuse from the support as a whole, (as you will see from above) I merely quesioned why Hughes received it on here and Calderwood doesn't. Just to be clear, (though again a simple look at my previous post shows) I stated that I believe that those who do not criticise Calderwood whilst castigating Hughes are prejudiced against Hughes, not the support as a whole. I couldn't make it clearer that I am neither pro-Hughes nor anti-Calderwood, yet your response has me down as both.

I am unsure what your point regarding the board means given that I didn't mention them in my post - but just to be clear, I have stated in another thread that they are seriously culpable should the appointment of Calderwood turn (even more) sour.

I would suggest that you read my posts properly before replying to them - I have no problem with you having a differing opinion to me, I enjoy a good debate - but please do not come on here and tell me I am one thing when I have stated clearly in a previous post that I am not.

matty_f
13-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Ah, so that's the real core of the debate.

The support were prejudiced against Yogi because he wasn't Hibs minded (well, no, he was actually), because he was a West coast import (no again, he was Leith born and bred) because he had never played for the club (this is a struggle, isn't it?). Perhaps his slight speech impediment was the reason. :wink:

Nothing to do with the man's failings to pull his team out of a steep nose-dive from mid February 2010 or his wasting of our player budget last summer on two profile signings of dubious quality when his future actually depended on bolstering his jaded squad through player acquisition? No, the Hibs support all had it in for Yogi from the very beginning.

Wow! :greengrin

And the Board's role in all this seems strangely to be of second-order importance.

But despite all the sophisticated caveats, the bottom line is you won't be happy until the Hibs support show that 'consistency' (as you interpret it) and give CC that same 'vociferous criticism' until he either shapes up or ships out - probably the latter.

Then, instead of criticising the support for being inconsistent, we can switch to bemoaning how they don't give our new Managers any time at all.

You are a Hughes man and you fundamentally believe that he should still be here - we couldn't have done any worse etc. Whereas others, like myself, are just delighted that the budget available to the club this summer is not in the hands of someone who thought de Graaf and Hart would be good additions to the squad.

Bit in bold was the turning point for Yogi in the way that I thought about him. I said for a long time that he was working with sub-standard players throughout the squad, save for a couple of exceptions. However, his signings of De Graaf, Dickoh, and Hart were not successful and added nothing to, if not detracted from, the quality of the squad.

basehibby
13-05-2011, 01:38 PM
For clarification purposes, please allow me to state my stance again. My points were simply that many of those who were fiercely crtitical of Yogi are now defending Calderwood with no basis, which I find strange - those who were impatient with Yogi are now asking people to be patient with Calderwood, despite the fact that we have been horrendous under him, with no signs of progress whatsover.

I find it strange that the people who criticised Yogi so vociferously do not either give CC similar criticism, or revise their opinion of Yogi getting us to 4th place not being any kind of achievement - they are 'having it both ways' if you like. People have told me that they'll reserve judgement until CC has had as many transfer windows as Yogi - to them I speculated that Yogi would never have got to 3 transfer windows had he enjoyed as poor a start as Calderwood.

So those are my points, as they have always been - and in conclusion, I do not want Yogi back, nor do I want CC sacked. I have merely been highlighting inconsistencies in people's assessments of our last two managers, which I believe are borne out of simple prejudice against/dislike of Hughes.

:agree: There was definately an ELEMENT of the support who were falling over themselves to take pot shots at Hughes from the word go - anything would do: his strong accent, his manner in interviews, his record with Falkirk, his alleged pally attitude with players. All these factors were targetted relentlessly up until the point where the form slumped on field and this again was dived upon with relish and zeal by certain individuals.
Thankfully this is not in evidence to nearly the same extent with Calderwood despite his slow start. It is thoroughly unconstructive and if anything disruptive to start taking pot shots at the manager before he's had a realistic chance to prove his overall abilities.
Calderwood deserves our full support while he has a PROPER go at the job of improving our club's fortunes, as did all his predecessors.

Stevie Reid
13-05-2011, 01:52 PM
:agree: There was definately an ELEMENT of the support who were falling over themselves to take pot shots at Hughes from the word go - anything would do: his strong accent, his manner in interviews, his record with Falkirk, his alleged pally attitude with players. All these factors were targetted relentlessly up until the point where the form slumped on field and this again was dived upon with relish and zeal by certain individuals.
Thankfully this is not in evidence to nearly the same extent with Calderwood despite his slow start. It is thoroughly unconstructive and if anything disruptive to start taking pot shots at the manager before he's had a realistic chance to prove his overall abilities.
Calderwood deserves our full support while he has a PROPER go at the job of improving our club's fortunes, as did all his predecessors.

Calderwood has my full support, I have bought my ST for next season, so I couldn't possibly support him any more. Whilst I have raised many a doubt and question about him on here, I have never resorted to name calling or calling into question his intelligence, or how he speaks in interviews and such like (I appreciate that many had genuine concerns about his assessment of the team's performance in Inverness the other night, which is completely different). I hope that Calderwood is never subjected to the unbelievably disrespectful abuse that was dished out to our previous two managers on here.

A part of me is looking forward to seeing who he can bring in in the summer, there's always an element of excitement regarding new players coming in - it's just that my hopes and expectations have taken a severe dent due to his time in charge so far. Although that there have been many I have seen happy to go, I have never called for a Hibs manager to be sacked, and very much hope Calderwood can turn things around.

Stevie Reid
13-05-2011, 02:34 PM
Bit in bold was the turning point for Yogi in the way that I thought about him. I said for a long time that he was working with sub-standard players throughout the squad, save for a couple of exceptions. However, his signings of De Graaf, Dickoh, and Hart were not successful and added nothing to, if not detracted from, the quality of the squad.

No one will argue that the signings have been hugely disappointing (though Stephens may turn out to be a shrewd acquisition, eventually).

The alarm bells had been ringing louder and louder for a while, and the final straw for me was the St. Johnstone game, no shots on target and no subs made - that was the action (or inaction) of a man hoping for a miracle, and he had to go after that. Thankfully the board agreed.

matty_f
13-05-2011, 02:51 PM
No one will argue that the signings have been hugely disappointing (though Stephens may turn out to be a shrewd acquisition, eventually).

The alarm bells had been ringing louder and louder for a while, and the final straw for me was the St. Johnstone game, no shots on target and no subs made - that was the action (or inaction) of a man hoping for a miracle, and he had to go after that. Thankfully the board agreed.

Yep, that was a particular low as well.:agree:

persevere1875
13-05-2011, 03:20 PM
Speaking ahead of the match at Inverness, Calderwood said: "We know what we've got building here, but we've got to produce it.

"It will be difficult for us next year. I envisage a tough season in terms of getting to the level where everyone expects us to be, but I'm quite excited that we might get there."

A host of players out of contract at the end of the season have already been told they are surplus to requirements, while Calderwood is waiting until after Saturday's final game of the campaign against Aberdeen to determine the futures of Derek Riordan and Liam Miller, among others.

But, irrespective of the make-up of his squad next term, top six of the SPL is the minimum target for Calderwood.

He added: "That's got to be the least of our ambitions. We'll strive for that.

"We're definitely capable of getting in there, but it's not a given."

After missing out on the top six this term, Calderwood had hoped to finish the campaign on a high in the five post-split games.

It has not happened, but the former Northampton and Nottingham Forest boss insists the period has been beneficial.

He added: "We're not getting results and points we would want.

"Is that the most important thing to me? No.

"It's the development of the club and an opportunity.

"We can suffer reverses and they don't mean too much at the minute.

"At the end it's a record that will always be labelled with me and I'll have to accept that.

"In terms of going forward I think what we'll gain out of it will be better than the points tally and my individual record - that's inconsequential at this moment."



Calderwood praised Inverness for wrapping up seventh place, with Caley Thistle holding an unassailable lead with two games remaining.

He said: "They've had a terrific season. The last couple of results have topped off what has been a fine season for them.

"It was based on their away form earlier in the season but it's always difficult to go there and not many teams come back with three points.

"We'll need to try and do something that hasn't happened too often before."


http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8670_6925483,00.html

I personally find it strange that some folk on here are calling into question Calderwoods ability to get results from the current squad and set up at Easter Rd towards the latter end of the season, reading speedways post which quotes from the Calderwood interview pre and post inverness match, IMO this to me sounds like a man who's all too aware of what his job entails and what is expected of him.

Lets rewind to the dismissal of Collins, Mixu and Hughes, at that time it became all to apparent to me and to many other Hibs supporters that our club not only had issues with the inability of squad members to rise to the occasion and turn out a result but more importantly we had fundamental issues in the club over players who had too much power "the players / Petrie meeting behind Collins back etc " and the complete lack of desire to deliver for the club whether this be a belief that they were bigger than the club, possible clauses in their contracts or even the way there contracts were negotiated and by whom, this discussion raised its ugly head time and time again under the reign of these three managers and I belive the common concensus was that something was badly wrong at Easter Road / East Mains.

Fast forward to January and having had the time to assess the situation, Calderwood brings in stop gap signings during the window with the sole remit of securing SPL status whilst the inevitable cull happens in January.

Now whilst he may have been able to get some if not all players to respond and deliver while the prospect of a new or continued contract was in the air with the help of his new signings, subsequently it has undoubtably become all to apparant to the present incumbents of the Hibs shirts that in the majority of cases their days were numbered. I dont know how many people on this forum have ever been in a position where your told your all being laid off and your marking time waiting for the day to come, but having been there myself, I can assure you the last thing you want to do is deliver for your current employer.

To my mind, and its only an opinion, Calderwood has assessed the situation,realised along with alot of folk on here that the current set up is rotten, said the right things in the right ears for long enough to ensure our continued SPL status and then laid it on the line safe in the knowledge that the ONLY way to change the attitude at ER was to clear the lot of them out and start again, he quite clearly states that at present whilst results would be nice, its not the be all and end all of his remit at present and he's concentrating on the development of the club, lets give the guy the time he needs over the summer and see what he delivers, only then can we fairly and accuratly assess whether or not Calderwood is the man to address the problems at Hibs.