PDA

View Full Version : Imagine how strong Hibs could be next season if.........



Mikey
06-05-2011, 03:11 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

dangermouse
06-05-2011, 03:20 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

Sadly, there are too many on here that want to wait to see who is in the team before renewing (probably the same folk crying out for investment in the team - oh the irony). A false economy if ever there was one

R'Albin
06-05-2011, 03:26 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

:top marks exactly! Some of the folk on here are unbelievable sometimes!

Gus
06-05-2011, 03:28 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.


Sadly, there are too many on here that want to wait to see who is in the team before renewing (probably the same folk crying out for investment in the team - oh the irony). A false economy if ever there was one

So are you saying folk should renew there season ticket on the evidence of the last 18 months?

Do you really think the income from 12,000 st's would be invested into the team....I have my doubts.

Hibs are a football club aswell as a business and the support will be there if they are producing it on the pitch, as quite frankly that is why folk go to the games not to sit in a full ER watching rubbish.

Its a double ended sword IMO

Beefster
06-05-2011, 03:38 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

Although I've renewed, I think everyone blindly renewing every year without regard to the quality of the product or ambition shown by the Board is a dangerous thing to happen.

Those in charge need to do more to get folk through the door rather than taking everyone for granted.

Jack
06-05-2011, 03:49 PM
Well I bought twice as many this season than last season. If everyone did the same … :greengrin

matty_f
06-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Well I bought twice as many this season than last season. If everyone did the same … :greengrin

Same here.

The board have said every penny of season ticket sales goes to the team on the park. Come on folks, you know it makes sense!!

Brizo
06-05-2011, 04:06 PM
I am assuming that we had significantly higher ST numbers than three of the teams who made the top 6. Unfortunately better ST revenue than other clubs is no guarantee we will finish above them in the league.

I dont blame anyone for not renewing. Its a p@sh poor third rate league with third rate product and the entertainment value is next to zero. Time was if we were rotten you could grudgingly appreciate the skills of a De Cannio or Laudrup but theres no one in this league anywhere near that calibre. And if people have other financial priorities or are just fed up with Scottish fitba and cant be arsed who can blame them.

blackpoolhibs
06-05-2011, 04:12 PM
I am assuming that we had significantly higher ST numbers than three of the teams who made the top 6. Unfortunately better ST revenue than other clubs is no guarantee we will finish above them in the league.

I dont blame anyone for not renewing. Its a p@sh poor third rate league with third rate product and the entertainment value is next to zero. Time was if we were rotten you could grudgingly appreciate the skills of a De Cannio or Laudrup but theres no one in this league anywhere near that calibre. And if people have other financial priorities or are just fed up with Scottish fitba and cant be arsed who can blame them.

:agree: imagine we had a manager with the ability to manage a team properly with 12k season ticket holders?

It would be great to reach that number, but without the right guy in charge it makes little difference it seems.

matty_f
06-05-2011, 04:13 PM
:agree: imagine we had a manager with the ability to manage a team properly with 12k season ticket holders?

It would be great to reach that number, but without the right guy in charge it makes little difference it seems.
Sure Forrest must have had more than 12k season tickets when calderwood took them up...

PaulSmith
06-05-2011, 04:23 PM
So are you saying folk should renew there season ticket on the evidence of the last 18 months?

Do you really think the income from 12,000 st's would be invested into the team....I have my doubts.

Hibs are a football club aswell as a business and the support will be there if they are producing it on the pitch, as quite frankly that is why folk go to the games not to sit in a full ER watching rubbish.

Its a double ended sword IMO

Where would it go then, genuinely interested where you think the money would be spent?

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 04:33 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

Imagine indeed, or imagine a quality signing being made to whet the appetite and put 12,000 bums on seats?

500miles
06-05-2011, 04:47 PM
Imagine indeed, or imagine a quality signing being made to whet the appetite and put 12,000 bums on seats?

Aye. Like the short fading Riordan, the disappointing Liam Miller, the mystifying Edwin De Graff, the trouble maker that was Anthony Stokes.

That's the sort of quality that comes to teams like us. Damaged goods.

Jack
06-05-2011, 04:48 PM
So are you saying folk should renew there season ticket on the evidence of the last 18 months?

Do you really think the income from 12,000 st's would be invested into the team....I have my doubts.

Hibs are a football club aswell as a business and the support will be there if they are producing it on the pitch, as quite frankly that is why folk go to the games not to sit in a full ER watching rubbish.

Its a double ended sword IMO

So you think the Club are lying when they say that?

HibsMax
06-05-2011, 05:09 PM
It's a chicken and an egg scenario. Hibs need money to invest in more players to improve the team. Fans want to see what team they will be watching next season.

Someone has to take a risk, club or fans - the club can invest in the team without the financial backing of the fans.....or the fans can back the team without knowing exactly who they're backing.

We could talk and talk and talk about what the ideal scenario would be but unfortunately all we can do is speculate.

People talk about Hibs being a business and I think we need to drop that mentality (even though from a Hibs perspective it's perfectly true). Let's be honest, only an idiot would invest their money in a failing venture. If we looked at the SPL purely from a business perspective we would be nuts not to invest our hard-earned money in Celtic or Rangers. Hopefully reading that last sentence is enough to convince you that football is NOT a business as far as the fans are concerned. It runs deeper than that. The question for supporters is, do you want to continue to support the club you love or will you withdraw your backing and wait to see if they can survive / improve without you (or until such time that you think Hibs are again worthy of your money).

BroxburnHibee
06-05-2011, 05:18 PM
Pipe dream if you ask me

I'm not blindly handing over my cash to watch more dross

HibbyAndy
06-05-2011, 05:19 PM
Pipe dream if you ask me

I'm not blindly handing over my cash to watch more dross

Me neither. I stood up to be counted.Ill see what players are brought in before i even think about another ST..Hibs will get not one more penny from me till i see what qaulity is brought in.

HibsMax
06-05-2011, 05:36 PM
Pipe dream if you ask me

I'm not blindly handing over my cash to watch more dross


Me neither. I stood up to be counted.Ill see what players are brought in before i even think about another ST..Hibs will get not one more penny from me till i see what qaulity is brought in.

So just out of interest, from a purely financial viewpoint, how do you expect Hibs to get better with less support?

Before I get pilloried, this is NOT a "who's the best supporter post / thread", my questions are genuine. Obviously I am not a season ticket holder so I cannot point any fingers (would be interesting to know if there are ways for non-season ticket holders to assist somehow). It just perplexes me to see people saying they have had enough and will not hand over their cash because I don't see how that can help the club turnaround.

If you have more important things to spend your cash on, fair game.
If you can't afford to renew, no problems.
If you've just had enough of Hibs and don't want to spend any more money on them then I assume you will be done for good and not come running back if / when Hibs turn the corner because THAT would make you a fair weather fan. Not having a dig, just stating an irrefutable fact.

HibbyAndy
06-05-2011, 05:43 PM
So just out of interest, from a purely financial viewpoint, how do you expect Hibs to get better with less support?

Before I get pilloried, this is NOT a "who's the best supporter post / thread", my questions are genuine. Obviously I am not a season ticket holder so I cannot point any fingers (would be interesting to know if there are ways for non-season ticket holders to assist somehow). It just perplexes me to see people saying they have had enough and will not hand over their cash because I don't see how that can help the club turnaround.

If you have more important things to spend your cash on, fair game.
If you can't afford to renew, no problems.
If you've just had enough of Hibs and don't want to spend any more money on them then I assume you will be done for good and not come running back if / when Hibs turn the corner because THAT would make you a fair weather fan. Not having a dig, just stating an irrefutable fact.



If Hibs are active in the market in the summer and sign maybe 2 or 3 'well kent' Faces, It may entice me and several other Hibs fans to say 'Ok , I like the look of these guys'..'I have a feeling we are going to do well'..Ill purchase a new ST..Believe me, There are hundreds (thousands?) Like me waiting to see what qaulity we bring in before parting with over £400..I hear the other toss of the coin regarding buying a ST now and every penny goes to the club,Its chicken and egg as so many folk say..But for me, Myself..Im waiting to see who is brought in.

moredun
06-05-2011, 05:47 PM
If you've just had enough of Hibs and don't want to spend any more money on them then I assume you will be done for good and not come running back if / when Hibs turn the corner because THAT would make you a fair weather fan. Not having a dig, just stating an irrefutable fact.


Good post

The irony is brilliant on here.

" I want to see quality before i buy"

With what?

HibsMax
06-05-2011, 05:52 PM
If Hibs are active in the market in the summer and sign maybe 2 or 3 'well kent' Faces, It may entice me and several other Hibs fans to say 'Ok , I like the look of these guys'..'I have a feeling we are going to do well'..Ill purchase a new ST..Believe me, There are hundreds (thousands?) Like me waiting to see what qaulity we bring in before parting with over £400..I hear the other toss of the coin regarding buying a ST now and every penny goes to the club,Its chicken and egg as so many folk say..But for me, Myself..Im waiting to see who is brought in.

And that's where the chicken / egg scenario kicks in. Some people want to wait and see what faces Hibs bring in WITHOUT your money. To me it seems that Hibs would have better opportunities if they had the money from 12k season ticket sales at the start of the window rather than "half now, maybe half later". Let's say that's the way it goes, how many fans will complain (again - like they did during the January window) about Hibs leaving it too late to bring in new players? If they are genuinely relying on season ticket sales to invest in the club, it only makes sense for them to get this money sooner rather than later.

chorley_fm
06-05-2011, 06:19 PM
imagine if they had the money from 20,000 season tickets

:rolleyes:

HibsMax
06-05-2011, 06:24 PM
imagine if they had the money from 20,000 season tickets

:rolleyes:

Imagine if the league payouts were restructured to try and assure balance i.e., allocating the lion's share to those clubs that finish further down the league so they have more money to try and catch up. What!?!? Why would we ever do something as absurd as strive for a level playing field....

matty_f
06-05-2011, 06:32 PM
I heard a saying once which was ' what you want is what you have got', which basically says that if you really wanted something, you would do everything you could to get it.

We all say that we want hibs to sign quality players, but if we really wanted it, it is actually within our power to make it happen. The trouble is, we don't have enough people who want it enough to be prepared to do what hibs need them to do.

We will get the standard of player signed that we deserve, if we want better then time is running out to help the club get better.

marinello59
06-05-2011, 06:47 PM
And that's where the chicken / egg scenario kicks in. Some people want to wait and see what faces Hibs bring in WITHOUT your money. To me it seems that Hibs would have better opportunities if they had the money from 12k season ticket sales at the start of the window rather than "half now, maybe half later". Let's say that's the way it goes, how many fans will complain (again - like they did during the January window) about Hibs leaving it too late to bring in new players? If they are genuinely relying on season ticket sales to invest in the club, it only makes sense for them to get this money sooner rather than later.

:agree: It's seems rather strange to complain about the board not taking a leap of faith and investing in the team when you are not willing to do the same thing yourself.

Hiber-nation
06-05-2011, 06:52 PM
Aye. Like the short fading Riordan, the disappointing Liam Miller, the mystifying Edwin De Graff, the trouble maker that was Anthony Stokes.

That's the sort of quality that comes to teams like us. Damaged goods.

Yep, either damaged goods or good pros without the required ability.

Although Mikey's post is admirable, we just won't get people buying STs on a "what if" basis. There's a huge onus on the manager now and as expectations are so low I think the fans will give him time to turn things round if he can get a reasonable improvement from the limited resources at his disposal. A better youth policy is an absolute must - a couple more Booths would be great...

Barney McGrew
06-05-2011, 06:55 PM
Although Mikey's post is admirable, we just won't get people buying STs on a "what if" basis.

Have the thousands of people that have renewed already not done exactly that?

greenlex
06-05-2011, 06:58 PM
If I see the phrase chicken and egg in relation to season ticket sales I swear I'll do time.

HibsMax
06-05-2011, 06:59 PM
If I see the phrase chicken and egg in relation to season ticket sales I swear I'll do time.

Care to elaborate? Do you disagree? If so, in what way?

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 07:05 PM
If I see the phrase chicken and egg in relation to season ticket sales I swear I'll do time.

Is catch 22 better lex?

Hiber-nation
06-05-2011, 07:06 PM
Have the thousands of people that have renewed already not done exactly that?

Obviously but I don't mean renewers, I am meaning the fans he's trying to get the message to.

Alfred E Newman
06-05-2011, 07:09 PM
imagine if they had the money from 20,000 season tickets

:rolleyes:

The reality is between 6000 or 7000 season tickets will be nearer the mark. I`ve bought mine but would imagine most people will have more sense than blow £400 without knowing what sort of team we are likely to be watching next season and if other close seasons are anything to go by, the new season will probably be started before significant signings are made.

Geo_1875
06-05-2011, 07:11 PM
I bought mine what seems like months ago, while we were still deep in ****. No complaints, no moaning about prices. Just want to see Hibs and do my bit. If I wanted a cheap season ticket and to watch the quality that buys I'd become a Cowdenbeath supporter. If you want to watch Hibs buy a ST or just shut the **** up.

Sir David Gray
06-05-2011, 07:15 PM
So are you saying folk should renew there season ticket on the evidence of the last 18 months?

Do you really think the income from 12,000 st's would be invested into the team....I have my doubts.

Hibs are a football club aswell as a business and the support will be there if they are producing it on the pitch, as quite frankly that is why folk go to the games not to sit in a full ER watching rubbish.

Its a double ended sword IMO


Although I've renewed, I think everyone blindly renewing every year without regard to the quality of the product or ambition shown by the Board is a dangerous thing to happen.

Those in charge need to do more to get folk through the door rather than taking everyone for granted.

Totally agree with these two posts.

I've renewed as well but I cannot blame anyone who has chosen not to.

The last 15 months have been, by and large, absolute dross and people just aren't going to spend hundreds of pounds on a season ticket, when they'll have plenty of other things to spend their money on - things which are much more important than a season ticket for Easter Road.

A mother, father and two kids all buying season tickets wouldn't get much change out of £1,000. A lot of people just couldn't justify paying that, although they would find a way of affording it if the team on the pitch was worth watching.

Dundee Utd, Motherwell and even Kilmarnock all have around half the number of season ticket holders that we do and all these teams have managed to put teams on the pitch that are far better to watch than we have been over the past year or so. Whether we have 6,000 season ticket holders or 16,000 season ticket holders, we should be able to perform far better on the pitch than we've managed to do in recent times.

We were getting an average of around 14,500 people through the doors about 4 years ago and in that season, we only just scraped into the top six.

col02
06-05-2011, 07:22 PM
If Hibs have half the figure the thread starter suggested they will be doing well going by the past few seasons and they only have themselves to blame imho! I have had the same seat that I love in the West upper for 7.5 seasons and the last few performances at home have been enough to tip me over to the side of not renewing and picking and choosing what games I may attend. I used to make every effort to attend all away matches nevermind home games but what is the point when for so long the effort was not being replicated on the pitch? I don't earn the money our players earn but I work a lot harder and that sticks in the throat at times with how little they seemed to care. I find myself totally disillusioned with Hibs at the moment and the direction we seem to be taking as a club or should that be lack of direction!

NORTHERNHIBBY
06-05-2011, 07:22 PM
We always hear that football is a business. it didn't sit easy with me when Wallet Merger used to call fans customers, but there is a grain of truth in that. I will renew, but in this climate, and based on what we have seen, the logic of not throwing good money after bad is very much relevant, and I for one would not condem anyone for keeping their money permanently in the hipper or intending to dole it out a game at a time.

Brizo
06-05-2011, 07:23 PM
So just out of interest, from a purely financial viewpoint, how do you expect Hibs to get better with less support?

Before I get pilloried, this is NOT a "who's the best supporter post / thread", my questions are genuine. Obviously I am not a season ticket holder so I cannot point any fingers (would be interesting to know if there are ways for non-season ticket holders to assist somehow). It just perplexes me to see people saying they have had enough and will not hand over their cash because I don't see how that can help the club turnaround.

If you have more important things to spend your cash on, fair game.
If you can't afford to renew, no problems.
If you've just had enough of Hibs and don't want to spend any more money on them then I assume you will be done for good and not come running back if / when Hibs turn the corner because THAT would make you a fair weather fan. Not having a dig, just stating an irrefutable fact.

Imagine having the luxury of being able to pontificate about supporter loyalty and fair weather fans without actually having had to spend 350 plus on a ST and without having to have sat through match after match of turgid unentertaining hoofball. You talk about supporter loyalty without having to put it to the week in week out test yourself. Not having a dig , just stating an irrefutable fact.

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 07:23 PM
I bought mine what seems like months ago, while we were still deep in ****. No complaints, no moaning about prices. Just want to see Hibs and do my bit. If I wanted a cheap season ticket and to watch the quality that buys I'd become a Cowdenbeath supporter. If you want to watch Hibs buy a ST or just shut the **** up.

In the words of Roy Walker "say what you see Dode":greengrin

HibsMax
06-05-2011, 07:40 PM
Imagine having the luxury of being able to pontificate about supporter loyalty and fair weather fans without actually having had to spend 350 plus on a ST and without having to have sat through match after match of turgid unentertaining hoofball. You talk about supporter loyalty without having to put it to the week in week out test yourself. Not having a dig , just stating an irrefutable fact.
I've said as much myself but that doesn't make my point any less true. By all means, have a dig at me (not that you were, of course) but unless you have anything to say that disproves any of what I said I won't be holding my breath for your next non-dig. :wink:

EDIT : if you took the time to read and absorb what I said you may have noticed this:
"Before I get pilloried, this is NOT a "who's the best supporter post / thread", my questions are genuine. Obviously I am not a season ticket holder so I cannot point any fingers". But, again, as you were so kind to point out, you weren't having a dig.....which begs the question, what was your point?

jakki
06-05-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm buying my first ST on the 14th and a carer's one, albeit they are discounted but money the club has never had before. I'll only be able to go when the weather is good but it will guarantee me my usual seat.:thumbsup:

I am looking for a carer to help me. The season ticket will be paid for and in the East Stand. PM me if interested.

TheEastTerrace
06-05-2011, 08:31 PM
I don't think there will ever be consensus on this issue. You'll always have supporters who will back the club to the hilt, those who are more cautious and wait until summer signings make a statement of intent (or not), and those who decide to jack it until the club show more ambition in their eyes. And then you have supporters who have other things in their life that become more important. Doesn't make any of us less of a supporter. We're all Hibbies but our support of the club varies differently - we're not all lemmings or sheep after all.

Here's my take - I don't envy the commercial and marketing dept.'s job or task at hand at ANY of the football clubs in the SPL.

I don't remember Scottish football being at such a low ebb. This season's events have made us a laughing stock throughout Europe i.e referee revolts, SFA byelaws being torn a new ********, the damning McLeish Report, the bumbling SPL/SFL restructure, and there has also been some shameful incidents i.e. sectarianism in the guise of continual chanting and threats on people's lives.

Add to this that the football is plain Tom Kite to watch, playing against the same mugs four times a season in the hope of finishing best of the rest and maybe having a decent punt at the cups. The only refreshment may come from a European adventure, but let's face it folks, we get papped out in the early rounds before the real business gets underway anyways.

For me, I just can't get excited about watching Scottish football anymore - I was offered free tickets for the St Mirren game the other week and I turned them flat down. Nowt to do with my support for the club, will always love the club. But it's nae fun anymore, no banter or good times. My mates don't go either so the social has gone out of it. Maybe if I ever have kids, I'll get them down ER.

But until Scottish football changes for the better, which starts with the removal of the dinosaurs and freeloaders killing the game with mediocrity and incompetence, a wholesale investment and adoption of credible and effective youth development models to produce good footballers, and some radical new ideas in the sport......sorry guys not for me.

Good luck to Hibs on getting 12000 ST holders. I just won't be one of them I'm sorry to say.

BroxburnHibee
06-05-2011, 08:40 PM
So just out of interest, from a purely financial viewpoint, how do you expect Hibs to get better with less support?

Before I get pilloried, this is NOT a "who's the best supporter post / thread", my questions are genuine. Obviously I am not a season ticket holder so I cannot point any fingers (would be interesting to know if there are ways for non-season ticket holders to assist somehow). It just perplexes me to see people saying they have had enough and will not hand over their cash because I don't see how that can help the club turnaround.

If you have more important things to spend your cash on, fair game.
If you can't afford to renew, no problems.
If you've just had enough of Hibs and don't want to spend any more money on them then I assume you will be done for good and not come running back if / when Hibs turn the corner because THAT would make you a fair weather fan. Not having a dig, just stating an irrefutable fact.

Yes obviously that is the case. :rolleyes:

I've sat through too much crap in the last 2 seasons to contemplate wasting my weekends on Hibs.

IMO I've got far more enjoyable things to be doing with my family at the moment.

I took a 'leap of faith' last summer even when I didn't think Yogi had what it took and fully expected him to be gone quickly.

Quite frankly I've got better things to spend my money on.

I hadn't planned on giving up watching Hibs altogether though but obviously now I'll need to re-evaluate that given your 'irrefutable fact'

Is it ok if I get your permission when there's a game I fancy paying to watch?

Brizo
06-05-2011, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=HibsMax;2795201]I've said as much myself but that doesn't make my point any less true. By all means, have a dig at me (not that you were, of course) but unless you have anything to say that disproves any of what I said I won't be holding my breath for your next non-dig. :wink:

EDIT : if you took the time to read and absorb what I said you may have noticed this:
"Before I get pilloried, this is NOT a "who's the best supporter post / thread", my questions are genuine. Obviously I am not a season ticket holder so I cannot point any fingers". But, again, as you were so kind to point out, you weren't having athe dig.....which begs the question, what was your point?[/QUOTE

Get over yourself. Tbh there wasnt anything of sufficient substance to "absorb".

Your points as valid as the pub chunterings of any other armchair fan be they Barca Man U or Hibs. Which means in my book they have the credibility of the square root of heehaw.

If you really want to do something to assist the Hibs as you claim you do why dont you put your money where your mouth (or in your case your postings) is and buy a season ticket. I know of at least one other overseas Hibbie who does that. You would then be helping the club financially and could maybe even donate it for use by poor kids. Club and community , both winners.

BroxburnHibee
06-05-2011, 08:43 PM
I don't think there will ever be consensus on this issue. You'll always have supporters who will back the club to the hilt, those who are more cautious and wait until summer signings make a statement of intent (or not), and those who decide to jack it until the club show more ambition in their eyes. And then you have supporters who have other things in their life that become more important. Doesn't make any of us less of a supporter. We're all Hibbies but our support of the club varies differently - we're not all lemmings or sheep after all.

Here's my take - I don't envy the commercial and marketing dept.'s job or task at hand at ANY of the football clubs in the SPL.

I don't remember Scottish football being at such a low ebb. This season's events have made us a laughing stock throughout Europe i.e referee revolts, SFA byelaws being torn a new ********, the damning McLeish Report, the bumbling SPL/SFL restructure, and there has also been some shameful incidents i.e. sectarianism in the guise of continual chanting and threats on people's lives.

Add to this that the football is plain Tom Kite to watch, playing against the same mugs four times a season in the hope of finishing best of the rest and maybe having a decent punt at the cups. The only refreshment may come from a European adventure, but let's face it folks, we get papped out in the early rounds before the real business gets underway anyways.

For me, I just can't get excited about watching Scottish football anymore - I was offered free tickets for the St Mirren game the other week and I turned them flat down. Nowt to do with my support for the club, will always love the club. But it's nae fun anymore, no banter or good times. My mates don't go either so the social has gone out of it. Maybe if I ever have kids, I'll get them down ER.

But until Scottish football changes for the better, which starts with the removal of the dinosaurs and freeloaders killing the game with mediocrity and incompetence, a wholesale investment and adoption of credible and effective youth development models to produce good footballers, and some radical new ideas in the sport......sorry guys not for me.

Good luck to Hibs on getting 12000 ST holders. I just won't be one of them I'm sorry to say.

:top marks Great post.

IWasThere2016
06-05-2011, 09:06 PM
I don't think there will ever be consensus on this issue. You'll always have supporters who will back the club to the hilt, those who are more cautious and wait until summer signings make a statement of intent (or not), and those who decide to jack it until the club show more ambition in their eyes. And then you have supporters who have other things in their life that become more important. Doesn't make any of us less of a supporter. We're all Hibbies but our support of the club varies differently - we're not all lemmings or sheep after all.

Here's my take - I don't envy the commercial and marketing dept.'s job or task at hand at ANY of the football clubs in the SPL.

I don't remember Scottish football being at such a low ebb. This season's events have made us a laughing stock throughout Europe i.e referee revolts, SFA byelaws being torn a new ********, the damning McLeish Report, the bumbling SPL/SFL restructure, and there has also been some shameful incidents i.e. sectarianism in the guise of continual chanting and threats on people's lives.

Add to this that the football is plain Tom Kite to watch, playing against the same mugs four times a season in the hope of finishing best of the rest and maybe having a decent punt at the cups. The only refreshment may come from a European adventure, but let's face it folks, we get papped out in the early rounds before the real business gets underway anyways.

For me, I just can't get excited about watching Scottish football anymore - I was offered free tickets for the St Mirren game the other week and I turned them flat down. Nowt to do with my support for the club, will always love the club. But it's nae fun anymore, no banter or good times. My mates don't go either so the social has gone out of it. Maybe if I ever have kids, I'll get them down ER.

But until Scottish football changes for the better, which starts with the removal of the dinosaurs and freeloaders killing the game with mediocrity and incompetence, a wholesale investment and adoption of credible and effective youth development models to produce good footballers, and some radical new ideas in the sport......sorry guys not for me.

Good luck to Hibs on getting 12000 ST holders. I just won't be one of them I'm sorry to say.

Well said.

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 09:10 PM
I don't think there will ever be consensus on this issue. You'll always have supporters who will back the club to the hilt, those who are more cautious and wait until summer signings make a statement of intent (or not), and those who decide to jack it until the club show more ambition in their eyes. And then you have supporters who have other things in their life that become more important. Doesn't make any of us less of a supporter. We're all Hibbies but our support of the club varies differently - we're not all lemmings or sheep after all.

Here's my take - I don't envy the commercial and marketing dept.'s job or task at hand at ANY of the football clubs in the SPL.

I don't remember Scottish football being at such a low ebb. This season's events have made us a laughing stock throughout Europe i.e referee revolts, SFA byelaws being torn a new ********, the damning McLeish Report, the bumbling SPL/SFL restructure, and there has also been some shameful incidents i.e. sectarianism in the guise of continual chanting and threats on people's lives.

Add to this that the football is plain Tom Kite to watch, playing against the same mugs four times a season in the hope of finishing best of the rest and maybe having a decent punt at the cups. The only refreshment may come from a European adventure, but let's face it folks, we get papped out in the early rounds before the real business gets underway anyways.

For me, I just can't get excited about watching Scottish football anymore - I was offered free tickets for the St Mirren game the other week and I turned them flat down. Nowt to do with my support for the club, will always love the club. But it's nae fun anymore, no banter or good times. My mates don't go either so the social has gone out of it. Maybe if I ever have kids, I'll get them down ER.

But until Scottish football changes for the better, which starts with the removal of the dinosaurs and freeloaders killing the game with mediocrity and incompetence, a wholesale investment and adoption of credible and effective youth development models to produce good footballers, and some radical new ideas in the sport......sorry guys not for me.

Good luck to Hibs on getting 12000 ST holders. I just won't be one of them I'm sorry to say.

So someone who can't be arsed going, is the same as a supporter who attends every week.....Utter nonsense.....The word support means exactly that....

Not an uberfan post, but there are different types of supporter/fan from the ones who sit in pub and watch results on sky sports, to the ones who go religiously. Definitely not the same and to say so is disrespectful to the diehards imo

Andy74
06-05-2011, 09:12 PM
If Hibs are active in the market in the summer and sign maybe 2 or 3 'well kent' Faces, It may entice me and several other Hibs fans to say 'Ok , I like the look of these guys'..'I have a feeling we are going to do well'..Ill purchase a new ST..Believe me, There are hundreds (thousands?) Like me waiting to see what qaulity we bring in before parting with over £400..I hear the other toss of the coin regarding buying a ST now and every penny goes to the club,Its chicken and egg as so many folk say..But for me, Myself..Im waiting to see who is brought in.

I do get the thinking behind all that but really you are just looking for other people's money to be spent before you decide whether to join in.

greenlex
06-05-2011, 09:24 PM
Care to elaborate? Do you disagree? If so, in what way? No I agree that is the situation just the saying is geting on my thruppenies.


Is catch 22 better lex?
Much better. :agree:That other saying is getting used too much.:greengrin

TheEastTerrace
06-05-2011, 09:36 PM
So someone who can't be arsed going, is the same as a supporter who attends every week.....Utter nonsense.....The word support means exactly that....

Not an uberfan post, but there are different types of supporter/fan from the ones who sit in pub and watch results on sky sports, to the ones who go religiously. Definitely not the same and to say so is disrespectful to the diehards imo

Why is disrespectful?

You've taken that sentence out within the context it was meant. I said people differ in their level support and profess it in different ways. They are still all supporters of Hibernian Football Club are they not?

Judas Iscariot
06-05-2011, 09:37 PM
Pipe dream if you ask me

I'm not blindly handing over my cash to watch more dross

Same..

2 ST's not renewed and will be walk ups next year for the games we fancy..

That's the prob with a big massive stadium and naebody in it..

There'll ALWAYS be tickets available for walk up fans now!!

Stan Laurel
06-05-2011, 09:42 PM
Over the last few seasons Hibs have sold what were reported by the club as excellent numbers of season tickets, with sales reportedly increasing season on season. In return, the fans have been treated to one season of European football ending in a going over by the giants of Maribor and which was achieved as a result of an albeit decent start to that season which then fell apart alarmingly and went to the final day before we secured that Euro spot.

In buying these vast numbers of season tickets we still haven't been given all that much by way of quality signings on the park. Now whether that's been down to the managers identifying the wrong types of player or the board restricting the manager(s) in who they can or can't bring in whether wages or fee wise or both, I don't know. As with other posters however, I too can understand why some fans have now reached breaking point. Over the last few seasons we the fans have done our bit and put our cash in and in return we've largely still seen no better than mediocrity. Now we've appointed yet another new manager who so far the jury is still out on and who thus far in the minds of a number of fans hasn't said or done a great deal to whet people's appetite for the campaign ahead. That being the case and with times being tight you really can't blame people for losing faith in a product that's frankly been stale for years give or take the odd blip here or there.

The board now really need to step up to the plate and ensure we start getting it right consistently ON the pitch instead of just for the odd season under Tony Mowbray or Alex McLeish or one CIS Cup win under John Collins before that all went pear shaped. All the undoubted hard work off the park which has given us an infrastructure second to none in Scotland looks to have seriously outweighed the core product. It's allowed teams such as Motherwell, Dundee Utd & Kilmarnock to catch us up. At the end of the day it's the team on the park that will either put bums on all those shiny new seats or empty them even further! Neglect of the core product needs to end now before too many more fans are lost.

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 09:46 PM
Why is disrespectful?

You've taken that sentence out within the context it was meant. I said people differ in their level support and profess it in different ways. They are still all supporters of Hibernian Football Club are they not?

Here is an example. A guy in my golf club bangs on about Hibs and has been at two games in a Year....He had the audacity to say that unless we signed so many players he would not go back (the Board must be gutted at this loss in revenue)....Nothing to do with money, he is loaded. He just chooses to spend Saturdays in the pub....Not a supporter in my eyes.....So I think there are supporters and fans....Fans are ones who check the results in paper etc but dont really bother win lose or draw....Different, but to further my point, someone who does not bother going back because they have had enough is not as much of a supporter as someone who sticks by the cause. We all watch the same match and the same team, it just means more to others.....

TheEastTerrace
06-05-2011, 09:55 PM
Here is an example. A guy in my golf club bangs on about Hibs and has been at two games in a Year....He had the audacity to say that unless we signed so many players he would not go back (the Board must be gutted at this loss in revenue)....Nothing to do with money, he is loaded. He just chooses to spend Saturdays in the pub....Not a supporter in my eyes.....So I think there are supporters and fans....Fans are ones who check the results in paper etc but dont really bother win lose or draw....Different, but to further my point, someone who does not bother going back because they have had enough is not as much of a supporter as someone who sticks by the cause. We all watch the same match and the same team, it just means more to others.....

Ok, answer me this, when does blind loyalty kick in? In your eyes, and forgive me if I'm being presumptive, a true supporter is someone who goes week in, week out regardless? And those who don't, or may take issue with the club for one reason or another, are less of a supporter? Fair enough, but I don't think it's as black and white as that. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 09:58 PM
Ok, answer me this, when does blind loyalty kick in? In your eyes, and forgive me if I'm being presumptive, a true supporter is someone who goes week in, week out regardless? And those who don't, or may take issue with the club for one reason or another, are less of a supporter? Fair enough, but I don't think it's as black and white as that. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I have real issues with the club at present but still go regardless (not blind loyality as I have my share of grumps), but because it is in my blood, and I will be there long after Board members or players are gone....The Board are merely custodians of the Club.....

Speedway
06-05-2011, 10:09 PM
Here is an example. A guy in my golf club bangs on about Hibs and has been at two games in a Year....He had the audacity to say that unless we signed so many players he would not go back (the Board must be gutted at this loss in revenue)....Nothing to do with money, he is loaded. He just chooses to spend Saturdays in the pub....Not a supporter in my eyes.....So I think there are supporters and fans....Fans are ones who check the results in paper etc but dont really bother win lose or draw....Different, but to further my point, someone who does not bother going back because they have had enough is not as much of a supporter as someone who sticks by the cause. We all watch the same match and the same team, it just means more to others.....

You're in the same golf club as Garry? :wink:

Baldy Foghorn
06-05-2011, 10:13 PM
You're in the same golf club as Garry? :wink:

Blackpool is too far away for me to golf every week....:greengrin

greenlex
06-05-2011, 10:13 PM
You're in the same golf club as Garry? :wink:

:tee hee:

silverhibee
06-05-2011, 10:14 PM
You're in the same golf club as Garry? :wink:

:faf: :tee hee:

Removed
06-05-2011, 10:25 PM
You're in the same golf club as Garry? :wink:

I thought it, you posted it :faf:

NYHibby
07-05-2011, 12:05 AM
I thought this thread was going to be:

Imagine how strong Hibs could be next season if.........

Scotland was independent.

smurf
07-05-2011, 12:49 AM
Have the thousands of people that have renewed already not done exactly that?

We have. And it was done with heavy reluctance after this season.

The board and CC need to show imagination this summer to shift season tickets.

Steve-O
07-05-2011, 01:14 AM
We had 10,000 ST holders not too long ago and still sold all the good players and brought in pish as replacements so I can't see what difference an extra 2000 would make.

Be lucky to get 7000 ST's sold for next season IMO.

macca70
07-05-2011, 05:24 AM
But where's the incentive from the club to buy a season ticket.

In the current economic climate the club should be making it cheaper for me to fork out my £450 upfront, based on the current season, there's very little difference between having bought a season ticket and pay at the gate.

And I'm guessing that unless you got a free cup top up for being an early bird then you would have made a loss in past years compared to just paying at the gate for cup games.

It's the Club that want our hard earned cash so it should be the club proving to us that there is something worth forking out hundreds of pounds for. Over the last few weeks I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate I am going to get value for money next season. (1 man up front against a shocking St Johnstone team with everyone back defending corners)

I have renewed purely for the fact that I really like my seat and want to be gtd it for every game but had I not renewed before the last 3 home games, I seriously doubt whether I would be bothering as I cannot see how I am getting value for my money by buying a season ticket.

Look at what happened in January when we were told there was money to spend, everyone could see we needed new signings at the very start of the window but our season was over by the time anyone was brought in at the end of the transfer window.

Based on what we're seeing now and we have seen for the majority of this season I can fully understand why people would much rather have the option to pick and choose there games next season by paying at the gate, rather than paying up front.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 06:31 AM
But where's the incentive from the club to buy a season ticket.

In the current economic climate the club should be making it cheaper for me to fork out my £450 upfront, based on the current season, there's very little difference between having bought a season ticket and pay at the gate.

And I'm guessing that unless you got a free cup top up for being an early bird then you would have made a loss in past years compared to just paying at the gate for cup games.

It's the Club that want our hard earned cash so it should be the club proving to us that there is something worth forking out hundreds of pounds for. Over the last few weeks I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate I am going to get value for money next season. (1 man up front against a shocking St Johnstone team with everyone back defending corners)

I have renewed purely for the fact that I really like my seat and want to be gtd it for every game but had I not renewed before the last 3 home games, I seriously doubt whether I would be bothering as I cannot see how I am getting value for my money by buying a season ticket.

Look at what happened in January when we were told there was money to spend, everyone could see we needed new signings at the very start of the window but our season was over by the time anyone was brought in at the end of the transfer window.

Based on what we're seeing now and we have seen for the majority of this season I can fully understand why people would much rather have the option to pick and choose there games next season by paying at the gate, rather than paying up front.

The only way that the club can expect to compete and be in a position to lower prices significantly, is if the 'current economic climate' spread to footballer's value and wages.

As it hasn't done so yet to any significant degree, then the club still have to pay the going rate for players, the cost of which has to come from the various but limited revenue streams that the club has, of which one of the most significant is season ticket sales.

I wish people could see that Hibs aren't like Coca Cola or Tesco, where a huge profit margin leaves massive scope to cut costs for the customers. Hibs have virtually no room in the budgets going by the last few sets of accounts, to cut income and still be able to operate in the black.

It's fairly simple maths, if the support don't stump up the cash, the club can't spend it. Banks aren't giving clubs money hand over fist like they used to - it's too big a risk. Therefore the club has to generate what it wants to spend. We can either sell players to do so (and to be honest, every club does this to a degree, no matter who they are with only one or two exceptions), or it comes from the fans.

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 07:37 AM
The only way that the club can expect to compete and be in a position to lower prices significantly, is if the 'current economic climate' spread to footballer's value and wages.

As it hasn't done so yet to any significant degree, then the club still have to pay the going rate for players, the cost of which has to come from the various but limited revenue streams that the club has, of which one of the most significant is season ticket sales.

I wish people could see that Hibs aren't like Coca Cola or Tesco, where a huge profit margin leaves massive scope to cut costs for the customers. Hibs have virtually no room in the budgets going by the last few sets of accounts, to cut income and still be able to operate in the black.

It's fairly simple maths, if the support don't stump up the cash, the club can't spend it. Banks aren't giving clubs money hand over fist like they used to - it's too big a risk. Therefore the club has to generate what it wants to spend. We can either sell players to do so (and to be honest, every club does this to a degree, no matter who they are with only one or two exceptions), or it comes from the fans.

I agree with you re players' wages .. And hence offers to players have been same as before recently.

There must be scope for cuts in the number/remuneration in the Boardroom, M.

RP's taken a reduced role IIRC - wonder if his remuneration package has reduced?

matty_f
07-05-2011, 07:47 AM
I agree with you re players' wages .. And hence offers to players have been same as before recently.

There must be scope for cuts in the number/remuneration in the Boardroom, M.

RP's taken a reduced role IIRC - wonder if his remuneration package has reduced?

I don't know what the going rate is, tqm, but surely the same logic supplies to the board as it does to the players in that we get people as talented as the salary can attract. Would we be able to replace the board on less than we spend just now without a detrimental impact on the club?

Bear in mind that it's not just football clubs that these guys could work for, so they have to be paid at market rates same as everyone else.

Steve-O
07-05-2011, 07:50 AM
Maybe fans are sick of paying a fortune for STs so that we can pay 'top dollar' for supposedly 'decent' players who are making 5 times what the fans are and yet are ultimately fairly pish.

I know it's not Hibs fault that wages are the way they are, but just making the point.

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 08:09 AM
I don't know what the going rate is, tqm, but surely the same logic supplies to the board as it does to the players in that we get people as talented as the salary can attract. Would we be able to replace the board on less than we spend just now without a detrimental impact on the club?

Bear in mind that it's not just football clubs that these guys could work for, so they have to be paid at market rates same as everyone else.

Don't know what RP's remuneration is now but it is way ahead of market rates as a pay:income ratio. There's backlash about higher end Public Sector and Bank bosses deals .. RP's dawrfed these in % terms of turnover. This is a fact.

aberhibsfc
07-05-2011, 08:13 AM
I thought this thread was going to be:

Imagine how strong Hibs could be next season if.........

Scotland was independent.

It's not such a daft idea.

As part of the UK, incoming non EU's are subject to the UK Work & Pensions body. They apply a requirement of a non EU player having participated in 75% of their countries international matches over a given period. Now, down in Englandshire that's not a problem as they have more funds to go out and secure players fitting this criteria.

Scottish teams have nowhere near their English counterparts monies. We would not be in a position to capture full internationals from most countries, leaving us with the internationals from smaller countries or sticking to EU players. We are not able to speculate, as they do in Spain by bringing in young players full of potential from Brazil etc which would be our market. But as they haven't played significant full internationals then in the UK, in Scotland, nae chance of getting a permit.

I wouldn't want to see an an masse influx of these players, we have to protect our native players development and possibly an EU if good enough at a reasonable investment. But as a Scottish club in Scotland with new powers, the game could possibly broker a deal to make life a little easier to scour players within our price range that don't fulfill the current UK criteria. I am sure there would be plenty of budding young Brazilians ready to take their chance in Scotland if it was available.

Imagine a league producing a gem here and there in the ilk of Ronaldinho, it would also be nice to produce some Joe Bakers too.

Andy74
07-05-2011, 08:14 AM
What's this blind loyalty nonsense. It's Hibs, not Asda. Of course I am going to be loyal to them.

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 08:16 AM
What's this blind loyalty nonsense. It's Hibs, not Asda. Of course I am going to be loyal to them.

I think the point is the other financial priorities fans face A

Danderhall Hibs
07-05-2011, 10:18 AM
Imagine if the league payouts were restructured to try and assure balance i.e., allocating the lion's share to those clubs that finish further down the league so they have more money to try and catch up. What!?!? Why would we ever do something as absurd as strive for a level playing field....

I think half the money's split 12 ways and the other half is awarded on league places - seems pretty fair to me.

Are you suggesting paying 12th place more than 1st? Can you imagine the fight for 11th place post-split?! No relegation but more cash than the rest.

NAE NOOKIE
07-05-2011, 10:19 AM
What a depressing thread.

To read post after post from Hibs supporters saying that its not worth going to ER is really disheartening. Anybody who is still unsure about buying a season ticket must surely have any negative thinking on that score strengthened by finding that they are part of a reasonaby sizeable minority. At least I hope its a minority.

As a Hibs supporter I feel that it is part of the package to try my best to encourage folk to go and support my club. Not to dwell on the negatives, which I am not going to pretend dont exsist at ER or in Scottish football in general. However I for one feel that nothing can be fixed, changed or improved by withdrawing my financial or personal support.

I have some sympathy for those who feel that the product isn't worth the time, effort or expense, but that way of thinking isn't for me for the above reasons.

I have long since given up getting bent out of shape if ER isnt a swaying mass of 20,000 bodies on a Saturday. I would love it to be, but at the end of the day if Hibs do end up in a League of Ireland type situation with a couple of thousand die hards every home game along with the rest of Scottish football then I will at least be able to comfort myself by saying that I had always tried to be part of the solution, not the problem.

The rest, who still like football but just cant take the down side of supporting a reasonably sized club in a small league with modest crowds can go and join all those Irish guys who get interviewed outside Old Trafford or Anfield on a Saturday and say stuff like " I think we can beat Chelsea today" Aye they get to watch great football and Champions League etc. Mutch better than watching Bohemians or the like on a Saturday in a pish league with rubbish football.

But if thats all being a supporter is about and loyalty to your club through thick and thin doesnt come into it, then all you are is a customer, not a supporter in the true sense of the word.

BroxburnHibee
07-05-2011, 10:24 AM
What a depressing thread.

To read post after post from Hibs supporters saying that its not worth going to ER is really disheartening. Anybody who is still unsure about buying a season ticket must surely have any negative thinking on that score strengthened by finding that they are part of a reasonaby sizeable minority. At least I hope its a minority.

As a Hibs supporter I feel that it is part of the package to try my best to encourage folk to go and support my club. Not to dwell on the negatives, which I am not going to pretend dont exsist at ER or in Scottish football in general. However I for one feel that nothing can be fixed, changed or improved by withdrawing my financial or personal support.

I have some sympathy for those who feel that the product isn't worth the time, effort or expense, but that way of thinking isn't for me for the above reasons.

I have long since given up getting bent out of shape if ER isnt a swaying mass of 20,000 bodies on a Saturday. I would love it to be, but at the end of the day if Hibs do end up in a League of Ireland type situation with a couple of thousand die hards every home game along with the rest of Scottish football then I will at least be able to comfort myself by saying that I had always tried to be part of the solution, not the problem.

The rest, who still like football but just cant take the down side of supporting a reasonably sized club in a small league with modest crowds can go and join all those Irish guys who get interviewed outside Old Trafford or Anfield on a Saturday and say stuff like " I think we can beat Chelsea today" Aye they get to watch great football and Champions League etc. Mutch better than watching Bohemians or the like on a Saturday in a pish league with rubbish football.

But if thats all being a supporter is about and loyalty to your club through thick and thin doesnt come into it, then all you are is a customer, not a supporter in the true sense of the word.

Yet another poster trying to label the many fans/supporters who quite frankly cant be bothered committing hundreds of pounds of their hard earned cash on a depressingly poor product.

I've backed the club for quite some time. All of a sudden I'm not a real supporter anymore - whatever floats your boat eh!

jdships
07-05-2011, 10:37 AM
What a depressing thread.

To read post after post from Hibs supporters saying that its not worth going to ER is really disheartening. Anybody who is still unsure about buying a season ticket must surely have any negative thinking on that score strengthened by finding that they are part of a reasonaby sizeable minority. At least I hope its a minority.

As a Hibs supporter I feel that it is part of the package to try my best to encourage folk to go and support my club. Not to dwell on the negatives, which I am not going to pretend dont exsist at ER or in Scottish football in general. However I for one feel that nothing can be fixed, changed or improved by withdrawing my financial or personal support.

I have some sympathy for those who feel that the product isn't worth the time, effort or expense, but that way of thinking isn't for me for the above reasons.

I have long since given up getting bent out of shape if ER isnt a swaying mass of 20,000 bodies on a Saturday. I would love it to be, but at the end of the day if Hibs do end up in a League of Ireland type situation with a couple of thousand die hards every home game along with the rest of Scottish football then I will at least be able to comfort myself by saying that I had always tried to be part of the solution, not the problem.

The rest, who still like football but just cant take the down side of supporting a reasonably sized club in a small league with modest crowds can go and join all those Irish guys who get interviewed outside Old Trafford or Anfield on a Saturday and say stuff like " I think we can beat Chelsea today" Aye they get to watch great football and Champions League etc. Mutch better than watching Bohemians or the like on a Saturday in a pish league with rubbish football.

But if thats all being a supporter is about and loyalty to your club through thick and thin doesnt come into it, then all you are is a customer, not a supporter in the true sense of the word.



What's with the "I'm a better supporter than you" nonsense ?
This has been done to death over the past years .
" .....and loyalty to your club through thick and thin doesnt come into it, then all you are is a customer, not a supporter in the true sense of the word."
is downright arrogance on your part
Those of us who can't afford ST's show just as much loyalty to the club by attending as many matches as our finances allow.

Think before you post please !!!

:flag:

smurf
07-05-2011, 10:39 AM
Yet another poster trying to label the many fans/supporters who quite frankly cant be bothered committing hundreds of pounds of their hard earned cash on a depressingly poor product.

I've backed the club for quite some time. All of a sudden I'm not a real supporter anymore - whatever floats your boat eh!

I very nearly fell into your category of how you feel and not purchasing...

For you though what would it take the club to do to persuade you to buy a season ticket?

Hibbyradge
07-05-2011, 10:39 AM
I've been following Hibs since the 70's and I've hardly missed a home game in that time.

I may be a sad case, but I've still got all my season books dating back to 1994.

However, as it stands, I don't intend renewing for next season.

Scottish football is crap and getting steadily worse.

Why should I renew? What's in it for me?

BroxburnHibee
07-05-2011, 10:45 AM
I very nearly fell into your category of how you feel and not purchasing...

For you though what would it take the club to do to persuade you to buy a season ticket?

I'm not sure the club could do anything right now to be honest.

I've sat through the last season and a half and I honestly couldn't tell you any game I came away saying I enjoyed it. I think I need a break and just pay at the gate when it suits me and hopefully somewhere down the line the excitement will return.

I completely understand what some people are saying about the club needing the cash to invest but like most folk at the moment I have to prioritise my disposable income.

Hibs are nowhere near the top of that list just now.

smurf
07-05-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm not sure the club could do anything right now to be honest.

I've sat through the last season and a half and I honestly couldn't tell you any game I came away saying I enjoyed it. I think I need a break and just pay at the gate when it suits me and hopefully somewhere down the line the excitement will return.

I completely understand what some people are saying about the club needing the cash to invest but like most folk at the moment I have to prioritise my disposable income.

Hibs are nowhere near the top of that list just now.

Not a dig at you, yet the more like you, the tougher it becomes through less resources, for the club to get out of the hole that we are in.

I feel similar to you. Very rarely enjoy my visits to Easter Road these days. No build up anticipation and never leave feeling "I enjoyed that!".

The past four years have been dreadful and the complete disenchantment has IMHO penetrated our hardcore element of our support. That our board should be aware of because that's entering dangerous territories...

Andy74
07-05-2011, 10:57 AM
I think the point is the other financial priorities fans face A

CC not exciting you?

Hibbyradge
07-05-2011, 10:59 AM
The only thing that will change people's attitude is if the football becomes worth watching again.

I don't ever expect Hibs to win every week, but surely I'm allowed to expect a style of football that's actually worth watching.

Although I've got a season, I had no intentions of going to the Aberdeen game.

However, seeing as it's a tribute for Eddie Turnbull, I might force myself to go along, against my better instincts.

Sad state of affairs.

HibbyDave
07-05-2011, 11:02 AM
I very nearly fell into your category of how you feel and not purchasing...

For you though what would it take the club to do to persuade you to buy a season ticket?

Seemples......
The board need to stand up against the OF and move against a ten team league.


My loyalty to the club has stood the test of over 40 years supporting Hibs home away abroad etc etc. (OOH Uber Fan I hear you say????)

It's time the club paid attention to the fans/customers/followers call us what you want but dont p*ss on us and say it's raining.

No more cash up front from me till the board act in the way I believe the club/scottish football would benefit.

If they don't agree they can resign and let others run the club or as a supporter i can simply withold my contribution in future and choose the matches I want to attend.
Ignore the customer and close the doors of your business it has always been thus.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Don't know what RP's remuneration is now but it is way ahead of market rates as a pay:income ratio. There's backlash about higher end Public Sector and Bank bosses deals .. RP's dawrfed these in % terms of turnover. This is a fact.

Hibs aren't in the public sector and haven't been responsible for the erse falling out of the economy in the way that Banks have, so you're not comparing apples with apples here. The board's compensation should be in line with similar positions in companies in Edinburgh. On face value, I think they're probably about right.


I think the point is the other financial priorities fans face A

That's not the point, though. The point is people saying I'm not getting a season ticket until we make some ambitious signings. I don't think anyone would begrudge someone not getting a season ticket because they can't afford one for whatever reason.

HibbyAndy
07-05-2011, 11:23 AM
I do get the thinking behind all that but really you are just looking for other people's money to be spent before you decide whether to join in.

Im looking to see who Hibs sign before parting with my cash like thousands of other Hibs fans.

You can dress it up anyway you like.

Removed
07-05-2011, 11:45 AM
Im looking to see who Hibs sign before parting with my cash like thousands of other Hibs fans.

You can dress it up anyway you like.

Send the board an email with who you want them to buy and your credit card number with a commitment to buy a ST if they deliver their side of the bargain. :aok:

Everyone else who is waiting on the club buying first should do the same :agree:

marinello59
07-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Im looking to see who Hibs sign before parting with my cash like thousands of other Hibs fans.

You can dress it up anyway you like.

Will you be complaining when if the club can't afford to buy the quality of player you would like then?

moredun
07-05-2011, 11:50 AM
We had 10,000 ST holders not too long ago and still sold all the good players and brought in pish as replacements so I can't see what difference an extra 2000 would make.

Be lucky to get 7000 ST's sold for next season IMO.


You can add £17 million debt to that as well, nowhere to train and a run down stand.

Major changes there then

HibbyAndy
07-05-2011, 11:53 AM
Will you be complaining when if the club can't afford to buy the quality of player you would like then?

Ive been a ST holder for more years than i care to remember, For once in my lifetime im just waiting to see who comes in, Is that such a crime?.

BroxburnHibee
07-05-2011, 11:57 AM
Ive been a ST holder for more years than i care to remember, For once in my lifetime im just waiting to see who comes in, Is that such a crime?.

Not a crime Andy - just means you're not a real supporter, according to some on here.

HibbyAndy
07-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Not a crime Andy - just means you're not a real supporter, according to some on here.


Yeah i do get that impression .

HibbyAndy
07-05-2011, 12:01 PM
Send the board an email with who you want them to buy and your credit card number with a commitment to buy a ST if they deliver their side of the bargain. :aok:

Everyone else who is waiting on the club buying first should do the same :agree:

Tell you what, Ill give it to you before the Aberdeen game and you can hand it in for me?

Removed
07-05-2011, 12:08 PM
Tell you what, Ill give it to you before the Aberdeen game and you can hand it in for me?

:thumbsup:

Beefster
07-05-2011, 12:18 PM
Will you be complaining when if the club can't afford to buy the quality of player you would like then?

Why is it always the fans that are asked to take the leap of faith and not the club?

If the club can constantly live by the 'live within our means' mantra then fans can quite legitimately live within a 'not renewing until I feel I'm getting value for money' attitude.

marinello59
07-05-2011, 12:41 PM
Ive been a ST holder for more years than i care to remember, For once in my lifetime im just waiting to see who comes in, Is that such a crime?.

Of course it's not a crime. I wouldn't criticise anybody for not renewing, it's the logic of that particular reason that I just can't understand. Hence the reason I asked the question I did.

Spike Mandela
07-05-2011, 12:47 PM
The wages Hibs offer will stay the same so I'm guessing that no matter how many season tickets we sell the calibre of player signed will be the usual standard.

What does it matter if we sign three mediocre players or six mediocre players?

Franck is God
07-05-2011, 01:22 PM
The wages Hibs offer will stay the same so I'm guessing that no matter how many season tickets we sell the calibre of player signed will be the usual standard.

What does it matter if we sign three mediocre players or six mediocre players?

I'm not sure if this will be the case next season, from what CC has said he is looking to have a quite a tight first team squad with quality not quantity, limiting the squad to 20 allows a higher average wage.

And surely we should wait for players to arrive and play before they are labelled mediocre? Would the likes of Ryan Stevenson or Steven Elliot have sold season tickets last summer had we signed them? Both have been important players for Hearts this year

NAE NOOKIE
07-05-2011, 01:30 PM
What's with the "I'm a better supporter than you" nonsense ?
This has been done to death over the past years .
" .....and loyalty to your club through thick and thin doesnt come into it, then all you are is a customer, not a supporter in the true sense of the word."
is downright arrogance on your part
Those of us who can't afford ST's show just as much loyalty to the club by attending as many matches as our finances allow.

Think before you post please !!!

:flag:

I do. Perhaps you should read before you post.

At no point in my post ( or any other posts on this subject. Check my history ) have I said that people who cant afford STs are less of a Hibby than me, or any other ST holder.

In fact I have posted more than once that if you can afford one game per season and you go to that game, you are every bit as good a supporter as those who can afford to go week in and week out.

If you had read my post correctly you would have seen that it was a pop at those who dont go coz Hibs dont play like Barcelona, or they hate it coz there aint 20,000 there every Saturday. NOT at those who cant afford it and not even those who have different and probably more important priorities.

Arrogance ......... :fuming:

matty_f
07-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Why is it always the fans that are asked to take the leap of faith and not the club?

If the club can constantly live by the 'live within our means' mantra then fans can quite legitimately live within a 'not renewing until I feel I'm getting value for money' attitude.

There's a fairly simple answer to that, and that is that the club spend the money the fans contribute.

We don't have the money to spend without the fans dipping their hands in their pockets again to do it.

I'm sure the board (and the boards of other clubs) would love to just sign who they want on the hope that fans will buy into it and buy season tickets.

If the board take the leap of faith, overspend, and hope thousands of season tickets get sold and it backfires, then it leaves a helluva mess to clean up afterwards.

Spike Mandela
07-05-2011, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure if this will be the case next season, from what CC has said he is looking to have a quite a tight first team squad with quality not quantity, limiting the squad to 20 allows a higher average wage.

And surely we should wait for players to arrive and play before they are labelled mediocre? Would the likes of Ryan Stevenson or Steven Elliot have sold season tickets last summer had we signed them? Both have been important players for Hearts this year

We may have a tighter squad with more players near the top end of our current wage structure but the fact remains we will still be looking in the usual bargain basement bins.

Call them what you want, mediocre, average SPL players or hardworking pros the point I was making is the amount of season tickets we sell will not alter the 'quality' of the players we sign only the number of them we sign.

As for Stephenson and Elliot I doubt very much if they would have altered Hibs season very much but have clearly supplemented a far superior Hearts side this year. The days of us signing players that boost season ticket sales are long gone.

Franck is God
07-05-2011, 01:47 PM
We may have a tighter squad with more players near the top end of our current wage structure but the fact remains we will still be looking in the usual bargain basement bins.

Call them what you want, mediocre, average SPL players or hardworking pros the point I was making is the amount of season tickets we sell will not alter the 'quality' of the players we sign only the number of them we sign.


If we sign average players from average SPL sides then I might agree with you but in January we didn't do that so why would you think that is what will happen in the summer.

I also see nothing wrong with bargain basement signings if they work for you. Boozy came from a 2nd div French club, Sproule came from amateurs in Ireland, Murphy arrived from Midlesborough's reserves, Shiels came from Arsenal's youth team. Those players cost a grand total of £5k to bring to the club and don't remember them being headline signings when they arrived.

Spike Mandela
07-05-2011, 01:51 PM
If we sign average players from average SPL sides then I might agree with you but in January we didn't do that so why would you think that is what will happen in the summer.

I also see nothing wrong with bargain basement signings if they work for you. Boozy came from a 2nd div French club, Sproule came from amateurs in Ireland, Murphy arrived from Midlesborough's reserves, Shiels came from Arsenal's youth team. Those players cost a grand total of £5k to bring to the club and don't remember them being headline signings when they arrived.

Agree there are bargains out there and decent players but as a purely percentage game the chances are we will sign average players.

As for January it may be a matter of different peoples perceptions but despite the initial upturn in results and the look of Paalsson I can't think of a better way to describe our signings other than average.

Franck is God
07-05-2011, 02:14 PM
Agree there are bargains out there and decent players but as a purely percentage game the chances are we will sign average players.

As for January it may be a matter of different peoples perceptions but despite the initial upturn in results and the look of Paalsson I can't think of a better way to describe our signings other than average.

I think that Towell is the best right back I've seen since Whittaker, Palsson has a lot to learn but has all the attribute to be a quality midfielder, I like Thornhill a lot, he'll be a top player for us. Sodje is limited in his abilities but has an eye for a goal and leads the line well. Vaz Te may end up being the player that can give us something a little different, not sure about Scott yet.

I would say better than average and a good use of a transfer window that is difficult to work in.

Spike Mandela
07-05-2011, 02:23 PM
I think that Towell is the best right back I've seen since Whittaker, Palsson has a lot to learn but has all the attribute to be a quality midfielder, I like Thornhill a lot, he'll be a top player for us. Sodje is limited in his abilities but has an eye for a goal and leads the line well. Vaz Te may end up being the player that can give us something a little different, not sure about Scott yet.

I would say better than average and a good use of a transfer window that is difficult to work in.

Opinions eh Franck!:wink:

Towell is a Celtic player so I didn't include him though I agree he would be a useful addition. Thornhill hasn't shown anything yet IMO and I would be very disappointed if we started next season with Sodje or Vaz Te leading the line despite apko's sterling efforts this year.

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 02:53 PM
CC not exciting you?

More than Yogi - definitely!

Hibercelona
07-05-2011, 03:43 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

Sorry Mikey, but I certainly won't be looking to get a renewal for next season.

Personally I think i'd get a bigger kick out of watching golf or going fishing.

If the club expect high season ticket sales, then they have to earn that privilege instead of expecting fans to put up with the same guff each season.

DaveF
07-05-2011, 03:48 PM
.......the manager had the income from 12,000 season tickets to play with.

I imagine we'll still be struggling in the bottom 6 next season.

Where is the desire to show the supporters that the players actually give a ****?

I gave up on the season a few weeks back, and I'll only be at the Aberdeen game to pay tribute to a man who really did care about the club.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 03:57 PM
I imagine we'll still be struggling in the bottom 6 next season.

Where is the desire to show the supporters that the players actually give a ****?

I gave up on the season a few weeks back, and I'll only be at the Aberdeen game to pay tribute to a man who really did care about the club

:agree: Same here.

We definitely need more than rhetoric from CC and the players just now. I'm fed up reading and hearing about how the games still matter and we're still going for points. It certainly doesn't look like it. It looks like we've turned up to fulfil fixtures out of a sense of obligation.

It really does look like the team don't give a toss, and haven't done since we got clear of relegation.

Holmesdale Hibs
07-05-2011, 04:17 PM
Aye. Like the short fading Riordan, the disappointing Liam Miller, the mystifying Edwin De Graff, the trouble maker that was Anthony Stokes.

That's the sort of quality that comes to teams like us. Damaged goods.

Apart from De Graff who was pash, these are exactly the kind of signings that would attract more fans. Stokes, riordan and miller have all been reasonably successful but we need a manager who can motivate them. Before you say 'they should be motivated anyway' - I agree but sadly this isn't always the case.

We need to take a chance on some flair players who excite fans, Sproule is a good start. There's a place for players like Martin Scott but he's not going to have fans rushing out to renew their season tickets.

Barney McGrew
07-05-2011, 04:30 PM
I'd be interested to know from the people who are waiting to see who will sign before renewing exactly who would be a signing/singings that they would consider good enough to make them do so.

Realistic names please. Much though I'd love to see them in the green and white, we're not in the market for Messi or Ronaldo :greengrin

new malkyhib
07-05-2011, 04:32 PM
There's a fairly simple answer to that, and that is that the club spend the money the fans contribute.

We don't have the money to spend without the fans dipping their hands in their pockets again to do it.

I'm sure the board (and the boards of other clubs) would love to just sign who they want on the hope that fans will buy into it and buy season tickets.

If the board take the leap of faith, overspend, and hope thousands of season tickets get sold and it backfires, then it leaves a helluva mess to clean up afterwards.

aye but they're going to have to for once take a "leap of faith" - i've renewed through blind loyalty but it's alarming how many STs have dropped off in my circle of friends - you can't blame them. Time for Hibs to buck their recent trend of
being last in and getting the dross.

There should be enough free cash with releasing players and some residue from the Bamba/Stokes/Zemamma cash to give us at least one headline signing.

Andy74
07-05-2011, 04:33 PM
More than Yogi - definitely!

We obviously like different things from football then if you'd rather 'watch' this.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 04:38 PM
aye but they're going to have to for once take a "leap of faith" - i've renewed through blind loyalty but it's alarming how many STs have dropped off in my circle of friends - you can't blame them. Time for Hibs to buck their recent trend of
being last in and getting the dross.

There should be enough free cash with releasing players and some residue from the Bamba/Stokes/Zemamma cash to give us at least one headline signing.

How have you worked that out? :dunno:

FWIW, I totally understand people getting disillusioned with the team just now, we've been honking for a good while now and right at this moment in time there's very little to be optimistic about.

I just wish that everyone who was exasperated/disillusioned with it realised that the only way to improve it is to back the club and give the board the scope to support the manager to the extent that we all say we want.

DaveF
07-05-2011, 04:39 PM
I'd be interested to know from the people who are waiting to see who will sign before renewing exactly who would be a signing/singings that they would consider good enough to make them do so.

Realistic names please. Much though I'd love to see them in the green and white, we're not in the market for Messi or Ronaldo :greengrin

Why should fans draw up lists - that's the managers job, not ours.

To the fan on the street, they can see that Hibs have been ***** for ages and therefore what is the incentive to fork out £400 on a season ticket?

The product on the park has to be right and sadly for Hibs, our on field product - and therefore results - has been pish poor for far too long.

Barney McGrew
07-05-2011, 04:40 PM
Why should fans draw up lists - that's the managers job, not ours

I'm just interested in the players that people would be excited about enough to get a season ticket, that's all.

I'm not disagreeing we're totally pish at the moment and have been for a while now.

new malkyhib
07-05-2011, 04:44 PM
How have you worked that out? :dunno:

FWIW, I totally understand people getting disillusioned with the team just now, we've been honking for a good while now and right at this moment in time there's very little to be optimistic about.

I just wish that everyone who was exasperated/disillusioned with it realised that the only way to improve it is to back the club and give the board the scope to support the manager to the extent that we all say we want.

i'm disillusioned with the club but have renewed - so where does that leave the likes of me?

There's a malaise of mediocrity grips our club, and it starts at the very top IMO. -A dynamic, nothing but the best will do for Hibs, should be the hallmark of a Hibs CEO - what have we got instead?

matty_f
07-05-2011, 04:45 PM
Why should fans draw up lists - that's the managers job, not ours.

To the fan on the street, they can see that Hibs have been ***** for ages and therefore what is the incentive to fork out £400 on a season ticket?

The product on the park has to be right and sadly for Hibs, our on field product - and therefore results - has been pish poor for far too long.

What's the alternative, though? The only realistic way we can hope to (and even then, there's no way of guaranteeing it) improve sufficiently is to spend money on improving the team.

We don't have enough to cover costs and the spend currently without having to sell players. Where is the extra coming from if not the support?

There is only so much revenue a club the size of Hibs can take in from other avenues. We have less tv money this year than last, significantly so. We haven't had cup runs so income is down there, too.

There is a limited, concentrated customer base - and from that base and whatever commercial revenue can be generated, that we draw our income. To increase the income we need regular attendees in greater numbers than we have now.

The club aren't interested in turning a massive profit and paying out dividends to shareholders, the priority is the team.

DaveF
07-05-2011, 04:48 PM
What's the alternative, though? The only realistic way we can hope to (and even then, there's no way of guaranteeing it) improve sufficiently is to spend money on improving the team.

We don't have enough to cover costs and the spend currently without having to sell players. Where is the extra coming from if not the support?

There is only so much revenue a club the size of Hibs can take in from other avenues. We have less tv money this year than last, significantly so. We haven't had cup runs so income is down there, too.

There is a limited, concentrated customer base - and from that base and whatever commercial revenue can be generated, that we draw our income. To increase the income we need regular attendees in greater numbers than we have now.

The club aren't interested in turning a massive profit and paying out dividends to shareholders, the priority is the team.

You know what, if we can't cover costs then maybe we should not have spent £5 million on the training complex and done what Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United et al do when it comes to training.

We ain't Rangers or Celtc.

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 04:48 PM
We obviously like different things from football then if you'd rather 'watch' this.

One win in eighteen and the worst home form ever .. 4-1 at Accies, 5-1 in Perth - it was a joy right enough! It was in fact as poor as anything I'd seen under Blobby and Duff Jimmy.

CC's had one window - and with very limited striking options.

Yogi had long enough and the wheels had well and truly come off. Where is he now?

matty_f
07-05-2011, 04:48 PM
i'm disillusioned with the club but have renewed - so where does that leave the likes of me?

There's a malaise of mediocrity grips our club, and it starts at the very top IMO. -A dynamic, nothing but the best will do for Hibs, should be the hallmark of a Hibs CEO - what have we got instead?

I'd argue that point (as you'd probably expect :greengrin).

The board have tried to deliver 'nothing but the best' with a top class training facility, a cracking completed stadium, and some legitimately ambitious signings in Miller, Stokes, Riordan, Murray.

It's still not good enough, though?

matty_f
07-05-2011, 04:50 PM
You know what, if we can't cover costs then maybe we should not have spent £5 million on the training complex and done what Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United et al do when it comes to training.

We ain't Rangers or Celtc.

It was something consecutive managers were calling for - I've just finished posting a point saying that we have a board who want the best for Hibs, yet you are arguing that they shouldn't have bothered.

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 04:51 PM
I'd argue that point (as you'd probably expect :greengrin).

The board have tried to deliver 'nothing but the best' with a top class training facility, a cracking completed stadium, and some legitimately ambitious signings in Miller, Stokes, Riordan, Murray.

It's still not good enough, though?

Counts for nothing if the team falls way short of what's expected, and the stadium's half full. There's growing apathy or anger depending on your nature. Tough times.

DaveF
07-05-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm just interested in the players that people would be excited about enough to get a season ticket, that's all.

I'm not disagreeing we're totally pish at the moment and have been for a while now.

You're question is totally unrealistic though? If someone replies with a name like Yakubu (:greengrin) for example, then you'll laugh him out the forum.

Hibs problem is bigger than just signing a big name player for next season. The dross on the park for the last 2 years has had such a debilitating effect on the support, it's little wonder few can be arsed to purchase ST's.

Hamish
07-05-2011, 04:55 PM
I'd argue that point (as you'd probably expect :greengrin).

The board have tried to deliver 'nothing but the best' with a top class training facility, a cracking completed stadium, and some legitimately ambitious signings in Miller, Stokes, Riordan, Murray.

It's still not good enough, though?


Whilst not disagreeing with any of that I think what the main concern is that there is a malaise at the club which a succession of managers have had very little or no success of curing.

How this is eradicated , I don't know.:dunno:

Barney McGrew
07-05-2011, 04:57 PM
You're question is totally unrealistic though? If someone replies with a name like Yakubu (:greengrin) for example, then you'll laugh him out the forum.

Hibs problem is bigger than just signing a big name player for next season. The dross on the park for the last 2 years has had such a debilitating effect on the support, it's little wonder few can be arsed to purchase ST's.

But that's the difficulty Dave - there's a load of people saying they won't renew unless the quality of signings is what they expect. To my mind, we're either going to be signing young players with potential (which means like Murphy, Shiels, Boozy etc. we'll be unlikely to know much if anything about them) or players who are past their prime (Miller and Murray as examples). I don't see anyone getting excited enough about those types of players to make them renew again if that's the real reason they're not doing it now.

DaveF
07-05-2011, 04:59 PM
It was something consecutive managers were calling for - I've just finished posting a point saying that we have a board who want the best for Hibs, yet you are arguing that they shouldn't have bothered.

No, I'm making a point that if they can't cover the costs (as you suggest) then why did they go down that route?

If they (the board) were taking a punt that the fans would flock to buy STs because the stadium looked great and we had a nice shiny training complex but a ***** team, then would need shooting.

I live in hope that Hibs can bounce back next season but I've **** all evidence of it over recent times and I'm extremely disillusioned with all things Hibs at the moment.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 05:03 PM
Whilst not disagreeing with any of that I think what the main concern is that there is a malaise at the club which a succession of managers have had very little or no success of curing.

How this is eradicated , I don't know.:dunno:

I agree with you Hamish, and I don't know how it gets eradicated.

I'm hopeful that the clearout of players will improve things. We won't be in a position where we've got so many people on the periphery of the first team and should have a better quality, smaller pool of players.

In theory, I'd hope that would help engender a stronger team spirit, and give us a core 11 players who could be considered the first choice for their position. I don't believe we've had that since Collins came to the club, to be honest.

The club have tried several initiatives, as have some sections of the support, to lift the malaise, without any sustained success. We need to come out of the transitional stages of building teams, and actually have some consistency in the managers position, and throughout the team. From there, we build.

One of the big issues is that there is now a justified, widespread consensus that it's not worth going to watch us at the moment, and results and performances like todays do nothing whatsoever to abait that.

The last time I sensed anything like an excitement and togetherness between the club and the fans was when we beat St Mirren in February. The next few results gave people an optimism and enthusiasm again which was sadly scunnered in March and in failing to secure a top 6 spot, the season has finished with apathy from the players and the support.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 05:03 PM
Whilst not disagreeing with any of that I think what the main concern is that there is a malaise at the club which a succession of managers have had very little or no success of curing.

How this is eradicated , I don't know.:dunno:

I agree with you Hamish, and I don't know how it gets eradicated.

I'm hopeful that the clearout of players will improve things. We won't be in a position where we've got so many people on the periphery of the first team and should have a better quality, smaller pool of players.

In theory, I'd hope that would help engender a stronger team spirit, and give us a core 11 players who could be considered the first choice for their position. I don't believe we've had that since Collins came to the club, to be honest.

The club have tried several initiatives, as have some sections of the support, to lift the malaise, without any sustained success. We need to come out of the transitional stages of building teams, and actually have some consistency in the managers position, and throughout the team. From there, we build.

One of the big issues is that there is now a justified, widespread consensus that it's not worth going to watch us at the moment, and results and performances like todays do nothing whatsoever to abait that.

The last time I sensed anything like an excitement and togetherness between the club and the fans was when we beat St Mirren in February. The next few results gave people an optimism and enthusiasm again which was sadly scunnered in March and in failing to secure a top 6 spot, the season has finished with apathy from the players and the support.

matty_f
07-05-2011, 05:08 PM
No, I'm making a point that if they can't cover the costs (as you suggest) then why did they go down that route?

If they (the board) were taking a punt that the fans would flock to buy STs because the stadium looked great and we had a nice shiny training complex but a ***** team, then would need shooting.

I live in hope that Hibs can bounce back next season but I've **** all evidence of it over recent times and I'm extremely disillusioned with all things Hibs at the moment.

I reckon the thought was that we would continue to bring in income at the levels we were getting under Collins and Mowbray and as such the costs wouldn't be a burden. It's also likely that there is an expectation that over time the training centre will help Hibs produce youth players for the first team which is a more efficient way of bringing talent into the first team than having to go and make signings every window.

They also took the decision to build the stand when it looked likely that we would finish 3rd and therefore get European football, I don't think they or anyone expected the disintegration of performance that came about from February last year. I don't think anyone that follows a football club does so because of a stadium or a training facililty, however both of these things were built with the sole intention of improving the first team over a period of time.

Keith_M
07-05-2011, 05:20 PM
I've splashed out on a Season Ticket for myself and my Dad for four seasons, so you could say I've been playing my part. The fair on offer has rarely been worth the cost.

So, if I show 'faith' in the board and manager and do so again, only to see the same dross I've put up with for the last four years, will Hibs (or Mikey) be refunding me my £560?


And if anybody mentions Chickens and Eggs; I've seen enough chickens at ER already, thanks.

Andy74
07-05-2011, 05:31 PM
One win in eighteen and the worst home form ever .. 4-1 at Accies, 5-1 in Perth - it was a joy right enough! It was in fact as poor as anything I'd seen under Blobby and Duff Jimmy.

CC's had one window - and with very limited striking options.

Yogi had long enough and the wheels had well and truly come off. Where is he now?

Hughes had one window when we went seven months with great results which included our best defensive record in decades, Stokes among the top scorers in the SPL, Riordan getting 15 from left midfield, three cracking games against Motherwell who were going well, 5-1 v Hamilton, 3-0 v St Johnstone and generally playing passing, attacking football.

Why just ignore the first seven months?

Calderwood has had one good month in seven which is truly shocking. Are you going to judge him by the same standards?

If he is allowed such a shocking run why not Hughes?

I get the extra windows but a manager can't just be about managing his own players. His recent signings aren't exactly what they were getting cracked up to be. Even De Graaf has had more good games for Hibs than Palsson for example.

Let's see next year and we'll see if CC gets the same sort of criticism that Hughes even got when we third.

The Harp
07-05-2011, 05:44 PM
To be honest, it's probably only habit that's made me renew my season ticket. It would be a better fan than me that feels inspired to buy one.
We'd all appreciate the Club being able to attract a better class of player through significant season sales. But we're in the entertainment business and if fans aren't happy with what's on offer, they'll think twice about shelling out.
My main concern right now isn't about the class of player we have - it's the fact that the manager (and the previous one) seem incapable of getting anywhere near the best out of them.

Removed
07-05-2011, 06:14 PM
To be honest, it's probably only habit that's made me renew my season ticket.

:agree: and me.

Stevie Reid
07-05-2011, 06:18 PM
I've already bought my ST for next season but this is simply an act of blind faith, nothing else - sadly in this current financial climate, it is entirely unreasonable to expect many to do the same, despite the fact that it's the only way that the manager's budget is likey to increase.

It's unfortunate that our neighbours flaunt the rules by constantly going into debt to fund their huge wage bill and make signings to excite their fans - as a result, the Hearts ST sales have held up very well these last few years. We may have won a trophy more recently, but they are most likely going to qualify for Europe again this season, as well as continuing to comfortably win the derby fixtures on a depressingly regular basis.

However, what is without a doubt the most significant factor, we have a manager who has been in charge for almost a full season now, and has done very little to spark optimism for next season - mainly due to the fact that out of his 30 games, he has a win percentage of 27% and a loss percentage of an unbelievably depressing 57%. Add to that the fact that he signed more than half a new team in January, but Sodje's goals record aside, not one of them gets you excited about what they may be able to achieve next season.

We did look like relegation certainties earlier in the season, but now looks like we got out of it by having a bit of a boost from new blood coinciding with a great run of fixtures - our last 4 games (3 at home) have been against the bottom 3 teams in the league and we took 1 point. In short, this team has done just enough and absolutely no more to stay in this league, and as a result, any optimism for next season has all but disappeared.

I will continue to back the manager but I have serious doubts about where we will go under him. I very much hope I'm wrong to doubt him, but we simply cannot ask our support en masse to buy into what he has given us thus far, unfortunately.

BEEJ
07-05-2011, 06:21 PM
In short, this team has done just enough and absolutely no more to stay in this league, and as a result, any optimism for next season has all but disappeared.

I will continue to back the manager but I have serious doubts about where we will go under him. I very much hope I'm wrong to doubt him, but we simply cannot ask our support en masse to buy into what he has given us thus far, unfortunately.
Sums it up for me. :agree:

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 06:26 PM
Let's see next year and we'll see if CC gets the same sort of criticism that Hughes even got when we third.

Would be useful if we started looking forward .. Instead of hankering after the past

matty_f
07-05-2011, 06:32 PM
Would be useful if we started looking forward .. Instead of hankering after the past

Does this mean you'll finally give up on the daft Yogi-insults now? :greengrin

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 06:43 PM
Does this mean you'll finally give up on the daft Yogi-insults now? :greengrin

Aye - he's gonna become intelligent :wink: mare chance of that than Andy moving on.

Andy74
07-05-2011, 06:51 PM
Aye - he's gonna become intelligent :wink: mare chance of that than Andy moving on.

I'd be delighted to move on. If everyone accepts that CC is responsible for what's going on right now instead of blaming others.

Baldy Foghorn
07-05-2011, 07:00 PM
I'd be delighted to move on. If everyone accepts that CC is responsible for what's going on right now instead of blaming others.

If it is a rebuilding job for CC, and not having to work with youth at his disposal, then this is going to be a critical summer for all connected with the Club.

Andy74
07-05-2011, 07:07 PM
If it is a rebuilding job for CC, and not having to work with youth at his disposal, then this is going to be a critical summer for all connected with the Club.

Yep and with so many out of contract there can be no excuses. I'd like to see a bit of pace and flair and some attempt at entertainment.

IberianHibernian
07-05-2011, 08:55 PM
Why the obsession with season ticket numbers when everyone knows there are more than enough seats to go around ? Even when we`re doing well there are said to be 10% of STHs who don`t use their tickets while there are thousands of walk up fans who go to most home games . A team playing attacking football and hopefully winning most games will soon boost walk up sales and ST sales for whole or half season but we know that isn`t easy with financial and other restrictions . Apart from that , it`s up to the club`s marketing department to boost walk up sales - do more to attract kids , families , tourists , immigrants , sports clubs , pensioners , away fans etc etc . For example , we have supporters clubs in places such as London , Ireland and Orkney/Shetland - members of these clubs probably visit Holy Ground once or twice a year - do club do anything to encourage more frequent visits and members to bring friends and relatives with them ? Workplaces ? Invite companies to give tickets to their workers - not ties and executive stuff but cheap seats and the experience of watching Hibs with real fans . Fill those empty seats at front of South Stand that look so bad on telly . Charge away fans at catergory B matches a tenner ( a fiver for kids ) - word will get round that Hibs welcome away fans and more fans will come in other seasons and there`ll be some atmosphere in ground and maybe our fans will get a better deal at away matches and we`ll benefit from support ) . When there are big rugby matches or other sports ( ice hockey ? ) offer cheap tickets to our matches . Edinburgh is not a big city or a football city and is also very near to Glasgow plus the problem of lots of potential Hibernian fans being lured to games in England whether in pubs or actually in stadiums but with decent incentives people will go to see us . Some will become lifelong Hibbies , others will keep turning up a couple of times a year and all will talk about their vist to the home of Hibernian FC .

IWasThere2016
07-05-2011, 11:14 PM
I'd be delighted to move on. If everyone accepts that CC is responsible for what's going on right now instead of blaming others.

He had 4 of his signings out there today .. So if he is responsible, he needs time to address the mess he inherited. A squad full of poor and demoralised (and a fair few bullied) players. Roll on next season, and I have faith in CC and DA.

Beefster
08-05-2011, 08:00 AM
There's a fairly simple answer to that, and that is that the club spend the money the fans contribute.

We don't have the money to spend without the fans dipping their hands in their pockets again to do it.

I'm sure the board (and the boards of other clubs) would love to just sign who they want on the hope that fans will buy into it and buy season tickets.

If the board take the leap of faith, overspend, and hope thousands of season tickets get sold and it backfires, then it leaves a helluva mess to clean up afterwards.

They can't grumble when thousands of fans get fed up taking that leap of faith for no return then. We were selling high numbers when we had the 'Golden Generation' - we sold them (unavoidably in most cases) and reinvested it in capital projects rather than on the bread and butter that attracts or retains STs.

I don't care what anyone says or what 'free ticket' initiatives they can point to, the Board have been incredibly lazy or unimaginative in attracting folk long-term to ER. Time for them to step up to the plate - if they don't, they can't expect the fans to.

Beefster
08-05-2011, 08:01 AM
I'd be delighted to move on. If everyone accepts that CC is responsible for what's going on right now instead of blaming others.

Why don't you give him some time and more than one window? His objective this season was avoiding relegation - job done.

You are still defending Hughes - after 3 windows, 15 months, the worst run of home results in our history and guaranteed relegation form in the last 7 months of his reign.

Andy74
08-05-2011, 08:28 AM
Why don't you give him some time and more than one window? His objective this season was avoiding relegation - job done.

You are still defending Hughes - after 3 windows, 15 months, the worst run of home results in our history and guaranteed relegation form in the last 7 months of his reign.
In October and just 8 points or so off 3rd his objective wasn't just to avoid relegation. We had played 7 games.

Beefster
08-05-2011, 08:40 AM
In October and just 8 points or so off 3rd his objective wasn't just to avoid relegation. We had played 7 games.

Considering our relegation form for the previous 7 months, that was the objective.

And using the '8 points from 3rd' is a bit like saying we're only 3 points from top after losing our first game. We were a single point from bottom, had won one game and were picking up an average of 0.7 points per game. That scales up to 27 points for the season. Hamilton currently have 26 points.

Jones28
08-05-2011, 10:37 AM
WHY aren't people re-newing?

Cost:
£400 odd quid for a season ticket? Thats what my dad paid for him, a further £150 for me, total cost = £550. It's going to be impossible for many to re-new next season because of finances. There's nothing the club can do about that, they've already done quite a lot as incentives this season. Early Bird buyers get a free cup top-up and shop vouchers. The payment plan is also there, trying to help spread the cost out as much as possible.

Quality:
Let's face it, Scottish football is pish, and it's only going to get pisher as long as the whole thing is built on TV money. How is a club like St Mirren (or even Hibs at this rate) supposed to attract real quality when TV dictates where the money goes?

The Blazers
We (the fans) will ALWAYS come second. What was the last initiative brought forward by the SFA/SPL to make it as easy as possible for the fans to go to games? Name me one, seriously.
Take the SC semi-final at Hampden last month. St Johnstone vs Motherwell. A fixture which would rarely attract 7000 plus in the SPL was played at Hampden when Easter Road would have to have been the clear and obvious choice. Sure it would cost the SFA an extra few grand, but it would have sold out! The distances are similar (from Perth to Edinburgh and Lanarkshire to Edinburgh) at around fifty miles (please correct me if im way off). What about the 06/07 season when we had to trek fifty miles through to Hampden on BOTH occasions when we played Dunfermaline in the Scottish Cup? 20000 turned up on the first attempt, 8000 at the Second, when only 2 months earlier we played St Johnstone at Tynecastle and it sold out.

Lofarl
08-05-2011, 10:46 AM
If we got Steve Clark we'd have the league in the bag by now. Fact.

Prawn Sandwich
08-05-2011, 11:37 AM
If we got Steve Clark we'd have the league in the bag by now. Fact.

And I would have cleared the bookies out! :agree:

new malkyhib
08-05-2011, 11:57 AM
If we got Steve Clark we'd have the league in the bag by now. Fact.

I think money was the factor there though - that and it would have been an overly ambitious appointment.

Calderwood appears to be just the kind of guy to see us through yet another "transitional season" (copyright Hibernian FC).

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Considering our relegation form for the previous 7 months, that was the objective.

And using the '8 points from 3rd' is a bit like saying we're only 3 points from top after losing our first game. We were a single point from bottom, had won one game and were picking up an average of 0.7 points per game. That scales up to 27 points for the season. Hamilton currently have 26 points.

Ok, try this one then - when CC took over we were 3 points behind Hearts. They may have a much bigger wage bill than us, but we still finished 6 points above them last season and many expected us to do so again. Yes, Yogi was horrendous for his final few months and the time was right for him to go - and no one wants him back - however, the hypocrisy on here when it comes to CC is considerable.

In his 30 games, his record works out at 0.96 points per game, which would amass a whopping 36 points over an SPL season. He signed over half a team in January which is ample opportunity to stamp a manager's authority (and is probably as many signings as Waler Smith has made over the last 3 years) yet we are still rank rotten.

McLeish and Williamson were hired with the remit to avoid relegation in the final stages of the season - to suggest that CC was hired with the same objective after 7 games is utter nonsense. When he was hired everyone on here thought we could make the top 6, and if we got it together quickly, some thought we may have an outside chance of Europe - that we are 26 points behind a Hearts team that has 1 win in 9 and is stumbling over the finish line shows what an unmitigated disaster this season has been, and Calderwood is as much, if not more responsible than anyone. We all laughed at Hearts last season yet they still managed to gain a huge amount of points back on us when we were on our shocking run.

On that note, if there had been a team that was 26 points behind us at the end of last season and showing similar form to what we are now, would you look at their manager and think that there's huge potential on show? Or would you suspect that after 8 months it is reasonable for supporters to have severe doubts about him? How come Yogi was expected to match or better last season's performance with this squad yet Calderwood's was simply to avoid disaster?

Shoot Yogi down continually if you must, he certainly supplied lots of ammunition for his detractors - but your refusal to judge Calderwood by the same standards and objectives is grossly unfair. The main sticks that were used to beat Yogi were Hogg, Rankin and Nish, and not one of them was signed by him - yet when we struggle under Calderwood the excuse is automatically that they're not his players. Such excuses were not made for Yogi - the opposite, in fact. We were costantly told that we were underperforming considering the squad that we had. Incidentally, all the signs were that those were going to be moved on at the end of the season anyway - and, FWIW, we're not exactly much better off without those 3 in the team (not that I'd want them back).

I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man, but I do have real doubts - I still hold onto the hope that CC can make us stronger over the summer, he certainly has the scope to do so. But I feel much less optimistic about next season than I did about this one - and that's one thing that John Hughes cannot be blamed for.

Judas Iscariot
08-05-2011, 12:12 PM
Ok, try this one then - when CC took over we were 3 points behind Hearts. They may have a much bigger wage bill than us, but we still finished 6 points above them last season and many expected us to do so again. Yes, Yogi was horrendous for his final few months and the time was right for him to go - and no one wants him back - however, the hypocrisy on here when it comes to CC is considerable.

In his 30 games, his record works out at 0.96 points per game, which would amass a whopping 36 points over an SPL season. He signed over half a team in January which is ample opportunity to stamp a manager's authority (and is probably as many signings as Waler Smith has made over the last 3 years) yet we are still rank rotten.

McLeish and Williamson were hired with the remit to avoid relegation in the final stages of the season - to suggest that CC was hired with the same objective after 7 games is utter nonsense. When he was hired everyone on here thought we could make the top 6, and if we got it together quickly, some thought we may have an outside chance of Europe - that we are 26 points behind a Hearts team that has 1 win in 9 and is stumbling over the finish line shows what an unmitigated disaster this season has been, and Calderwood is as much, if not more responsible than anyone. We all laughed at Hearts last season yet they still managed to gain a huge amount of points back on us when we were on our shocking run.

On that note, if there had been a team that was 26 points behind us at the end of last season and showing similar form to what we are now, would you look at their manager and think that there's huge potential on show? Or would you suspect that after 8 months it is reasonable for supporters to have severe doubts about him? How come Yogi was expected to match or better last season's performance with this squad yet Calderwood's was simply to avoid disaster?

Shoot Yogi down continually if you must, he certainly supplied lots of ammunition for his detractors - but your refusal to judge Calderwood by the same standards and objectives is grossly unfair. The main sticks that were used to beat Yogi were Hogg, Rankin and Nish, and not one of them was signed by him - yet when we struggle under Calderwood the excuse is automatically that they're not his players. Such excuses were not made for Yogi - the opposite, in fact. We were costantly told that we were underperforming considering the squad that we had. Incidentally, all the signs were that those were going to be moved on at the end of the season anyway - and, FWIW, we're not exactly much better off without those 3 in the team (not that I'd want them back).

I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man, but I do have real doubts - I still hold onto the hope that CC can make us stronger over the summer, he certainly has the scope to do so. But I feel much less optimistic about next season than I did about this one - and that's one thing that John Hughes cannot be blamed for.

Excellent post :top marks

Beefster
08-05-2011, 01:02 PM
Ok, try this one then - when CC took over we were 3 points behind Hearts. They may have a much bigger wage bill than us, but we still finished 6 points above them last season and many expected us to do so again. Yes, Yogi was horrendous for his final few months and the time was right for him to go - and no one wants him back - however, the hypocrisy on here when it comes to CC is considerable.

In his 30 games, his record works out at 0.96 points per game, which would amass a whopping 36 points over an SPL season. He signed over half a team in January which is ample opportunity to stamp a manager's authority (and is probably as many signings as Waler Smith has made over the last 3 years) yet we are still rank rotten.

McLeish and Williamson were hired with the remit to avoid relegation in the final stages of the season - to suggest that CC was hired with the same objective after 7 games is utter nonsense. When he was hired everyone on here thought we could make the top 6, and if we got it together quickly, some thought we may have an outside chance of Europe - that we are 26 points behind a Hearts team that has 1 win in 9 and is stumbling over the finish line shows what an unmitigated disaster this season has been, and Calderwood is as much, if not more responsible than anyone. We all laughed at Hearts last season yet they still managed to gain a huge amount of points back on us when we were on our shocking run.

On that note, if there had been a team that was 26 points behind us at the end of last season and showing similar form to what we are now, would you look at their manager and think that there's huge potential on show? Or would you suspect that after 8 months it is reasonable for supporters to have severe doubts about him? How come Yogi was expected to match or better last season's performance with this squad yet Calderwood's was simply to avoid disaster?

Shoot Yogi down continually if you must, he certainly supplied lots of ammunition for his detractors - but your refusal to judge Calderwood by the same standards and objectives is grossly unfair. The main sticks that were used to beat Yogi were Hogg, Rankin and Nish, and not one of them was signed by him - yet when we struggle under Calderwood the excuse is automatically that they're not his players. Such excuses were not made for Yogi - the opposite, in fact. We were costantly told that we were underperforming considering the squad that we had. Incidentally, all the signs were that those were going to be moved on at the end of the season anyway - and, FWIW, we're not exactly much better off without those 3 in the team (not that I'd want them back).

I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man, but I do have real doubts - I still hold onto the hope that CC can make us stronger over the summer, he certainly has the scope to do so. But I feel much less optimistic about next season than I did about this one - and that's one thing that John Hughes cannot be blamed for.

When Calderwood's had a fair crack of the whip (e.g. 3 windows, 15 months and the backing that allows the signing of expensive guys like Stokes, De Graaf and Hart), I'll judge him in exactly the same way as I did Hughes and Mixu.

The point about Hearts completely ignores the previous 7 month's form and is a replica of Andy's '8 points from third' argument. Form isn't something that can just be ignored. We were 3 points behind Hearts because it was early in the season. It was nothing to do with us being as good as them.

Some folk expected miracles from any new manager when he came in but it wasn't realistic. Folk used to use Craig Brown as the poster boy for the argument that Calderwood should have been able to turn it around immediately. Not so much any longer though, funnily enough.

Keep trashing the manager without giving him a fair chance of rebuilding the squad though. Other than making the job harder for him, it doesn't really matter either way to me. Thankfully, I'm fairly sure that the Board won't be as reactionary as some on here.

PS If you believed the pish about an underperforming squad rather than the squad just being pish, I can sort of understand why you were expecting miracles. Stokes, as unpopular as he is on here, dragged us through a lot of last season. Without him, we're nothing special.

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 01:31 PM
In his 30 games, his record works out at 0.96 points per game, which would amass a whopping 36 points over an SPL season. He signed over half a team in January which is ample opportunity to stamp a manager's authority yet we are still rank rotten.

How many points per games did Yogi have last season before he left? How many players did he sign - over how many windows? IIRC, only one window was a January one also. Given Yogi signed a team or more - why was he playing Hogg, Nish, Rankin etc?

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 01:35 PM
When Calderwood's had a fair crack of the whip (e.g. 3 windows, 15 months and the backing that allows the signing of expensive guys like Stokes, De Graaf and Hart), I'll judge him in exactly the same way as I did Hughes and Mixu.

The point about Hearts completely ignores the previous 7 month's form and is a replica of Andy's '8 points from third' argument. Form isn't something that can just be ignored. We were 3 points behind Hearts because it was early in the season. It was nothing to do with us being as good as them.

Some folk expected miracles from any new manager when he came in but it wasn't realistic. Folk used to use Craig Brown as the poster boy for the argument that Calderwood should have been able to turn it around immediately. Not so much any longer though, funnily enough.

Keep trashing the manager without giving him a fair chance of rebuilding the squad though. Other than making the job harder for him, it doesn't really matter either way to me. Thankfully, I'm fairly sure that the Board won't be as reactionary as some on here.

PS If you believed the pish about an underperforming squad rather than the squad just being pish, I can sort of understand why you were expecting miracles. Stokes, as unpopular as he is on here, dragged us through a lot of last season. Without him, we're nothing special.

:agree:

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 01:37 PM
When Calderwood's had a fair crack of the whip (e.g. 3 windows, 15 months and the backing that allows the signing of expensive guys like Stokes, De Graaf and Hart), I'll judge him in exactly the same way as I did Hughes and Mixu.

The point about Hearts completely ignores the previous 7 month's form and is a replica of Andy's '8 points from third' argument. Form isn't something that can just be ignored. We were 3 points behind Hearts because it was early in the season. It was nothing to do with us being as good as them.

Some folk expected miracles from any new manager when he came in but it wasn't realistic. Folk used to use Craig Brown as the poster boy for the argument that Calderwood should have been able to turn it around immediately. Not so much any longer though, funnily enough.

Keep trashing the manager without giving him a fair chance of rebuilding the squad though. Other than making the job harder for him, it doesn't really matter either way to me. Thankfully, I'm fairly sure that the Board won't be as reactionary as some on here.

PS If you believed the pish about an underperforming squad rather than the squad just being pish, I can sort of understand why you were expecting miracles. Stokes, as unpopular as he is on here, dragged us through a lot of last season. Without him, we're nothing special.

But you are ignoring our form at the moment, are you not? 8 months of form under Calderwood.

In saying that, I'm not sure that you actually read the post properly as I haven't trashed Calderwood anywhere in my post, I've just assessed his performance since his arrival and even stated that "I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man" - I also said that I was glad Yogi was gone and didn't want him back, thus not ignoring anyone's form.

I'm perfectly aware of how crap we were for the final stages of last season thanks very much, and I don't think anyone was expecting miracles when Calderwood took over, I certainly wasn't - and I wasn't saying that we should be as good as Hearts, just that we shouldn't be anywhere near 26 points behind them. Just as the fact that we were only 3 points behind Hearts because we were only 7 games into the season, the fact that we were one point off bottom after the same number of games didn't mean that we should expect a relegation battle - we have never had anywhere near the worst squad in the SPL. But, as per your argument - if the squad was so bad, surely Yogi performed a miracle by getting us to 4th.

Did you honestly think when Calderwood was appointed that his remit was simply to avoid relegation? Neither board or supporters would accept that. And how come achieving 4th in the SPL and qualifying for Europe is no kind of achievement for Yogi, yet simply avoiding a complete and utter disaster (and no more) is worthy of a pat on the back for CC? Lots of Hibs managers have simply kept us in the SPL, hardly any have had us as high as 4th. As I said in my previous post, you are not playing fair.

Incidentally, I'm not making things harder for the manager at all, what a ridiculous thing to say. My ST for next season is already bought, so I am therefore doing all I can to back the manager - I've every right to raise my concerns on here though.

For what it's worth, Craig Brown's percentages are better than Calderwood's and Aberdeen were safer before we were - why write off Brown and not Calderwood?

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 01:43 PM
How many points per games did Yogi have last season before he left? How many players did he sign - over how many windows? IIRC, only one window was a January one also. Given Yogi signed a team or more - why was he playing Hogg, Nish, Rankin etc?

54 points from 38 games = 1.42 points per game.

It would have been much higher over the first 30 games too. Yogi certainly signed a good few players but if his first 8 months had been like Calderwood's he would never have made it to a third transfer window.

I'm guessing that he was playing Hogg, Nish and Rankin because they were a major part of a team who had an excellent defensive record and lost only 4 games in 7 months. He dropped them before the end of his reign.

Regardless, I do not wish to have these same arguments over again, I'm glad he's gone - I just would like the same rules applied to our new manager.

BEEJ
08-05-2011, 01:46 PM
54 points from 38 games = 1.42 points per game.

It would have been much higher over the first 30 games too. Yogi certainly signed a good few players but if his first 8 months had been like Calderwood's he would never have made it to a third transfer window.
Who's to say CC will?

Plenty on here seem desperate to hasten the day of his departure though.

blackpoolhibs
08-05-2011, 01:46 PM
But you are ignoring our form at the moment, are you not? 8 months of form under Calderwood.

In saying that, I'm not sure that you actually read the post properly as I haven't trashed Calderwood anywhere in my post, I've just assessed his performance since his arrival and even stated that "I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man" - I also said that I was glad Yogi was gone and didn't want him back, thus not ignoring anyone's form.

I'm perfectly aware of how crap we were for the final stages of last season thanks very much, and I don't think anyone was expecting miracles when Calderwood took over, I certainly wasn't - and I wasn't saying that we should be as good as Hearts, just that we shouldn't be anywhere near 26 points behind them. Just as the fact that we were only 3 points behind Hearts because we were only 7 games into the season, the fact that we were one point off bottom after the same number of games didn't mean that we should expect a relegation battle - we have never had anywhere near the worst squad in the SPL. But, as per your argument - if the squad was so bad, surely Yogi performed a miracle by getting us to 4th.

Did you honestly think when Calderwood was appointed that his remit was simply to avoid relegation? Neither board or supporters would accept that. And how come achieving 4th in the SPL and qualifying for Europe is no kind of achievement for Yogi, yet simply avoiding a complete and utter disaster (and no more) is worthy of a pat on the back for CC? Lots of Hibs managers have simply kept us in the SPL, hardly any have had us as high as 4th. As I said in my previous post, you are not playing fair.

Incidentally, I'm not making things harder for the manager at all, what a ridiculous thing to say. My ST for next season is already bought, so I am therefore doing all I can to back the manager - I've every right to raise my concerns on here though.

For what it's worth, Craig Brown's percentages are better than Calderwood's and Aberdeen were safer before we were - why write off Brown and not Calderwood?

:agree::top marks Every word.

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Who's to say CC will?

Plenty on here seem desperate to hasten the day of his departure though.

Logically, you would think it would be the same people who wanted Yogi sacked too though, wouldn't you?

Despite not seeing any improvement over Yogi, I don't want CC sacked. I'm actually looking forward to seeing what he can do in the summer - just nowhere near as much as I thought/hoped I would when he was appointed.

Anyway, I'm away oot - it's been fun :greengrin

matty_f
08-05-2011, 02:02 PM
But you are ignoring our form at the moment, are you not? 8 months of form under Calderwood.

In saying that, I'm not sure that you actually read the post properly as I haven't trashed Calderwood anywhere in my post, I've just assessed his performance since his arrival and even stated that "I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man" - I also said that I was glad Yogi was gone and didn't want him back, thus not ignoring anyone's form.

I'm perfectly aware of how crap we were for the final stages of last season thanks very much, and I don't think anyone was expecting miracles when Calderwood took over, I certainly wasn't - and I wasn't saying that we should be as good as Hearts, just that we shouldn't be anywhere near 26 points behind them. Just as the fact that we were only 3 points behind Hearts because we were only 7 games into the season, the fact that we were one point off bottom after the same number of games didn't mean that we should expect a relegation battle - we have never had anywhere near the worst squad in the SPL. But, as per your argument - if the squad was so bad, surely Yogi performed a miracle by getting us to 4th.

Did you honestly think when Calderwood was appointed that his remit was simply to avoid relegation? Neither board or supporters would accept that. And how come achieving 4th in the SPL and qualifying for Europe is no kind of achievement for Yogi, yet simply avoiding a complete and utter disaster (and no more) is worthy of a pat on the back for CC? Lots of Hibs managers have simply kept us in the SPL, hardly any have had us as high as 4th. As I said in my previous post, you are not playing fair.

Incidentally, I'm not making things harder for the manager at all, what a ridiculous thing to say. My ST for next season is already bought, so I am therefore doing all I can to back the manager - I've every right to raise my concerns on here though.

For what it's worth, Craig Brown's percentages are better than Calderwood's and Aberdeen were safer before we were - why write off Brown and not Calderwood?

Good post.:agree:

Beefster
08-05-2011, 02:06 PM
But you are ignoring our form at the moment, are you not? 8 months of form under Calderwood.

Nope. I'm saying a manager needs more time than some are giving Calderwood. We've a crap squad and it takes time to sort.

I said when he was appointed that he needed until the end of next season and again when folk were drooling over him during February and March. At this point in his tenure, it's pointless dishing out huge criticism or praise. Judge him, positively or negatively, when he's had a fair crack of the whip and a chance to adequately change the squad.

I didn't write off Craig Brown either. I said he was no longer the poster boy for why Calderwood isn't the answer.

matty_f
08-05-2011, 02:26 PM
Nope. I'm saying a manager needs more time than some are giving Calderwood. We've a crap squad and it takes time to sort.

I said when he was appointed that he needed until the end of next season and again when folk were drooling over him during February and March. At this point in his tenure, it's pointless dishing out huge criticism or praise. Judge him, positively or negatively, when he's had a fair crack of the whip and a chance to adequately change the squad.

I didn't write off Craig Brown either. I said he was no longer the poster boy for why Calderwood isn't the answer.

Good post as well.:agree:

It's a good point about the squad, it's going to take more than one window to fix and we need to be ready to accept that not all of CC's signings will be successes, given the market that Hibs have to shop in.

It is interesting that CC is looking at one year deals with some players (and has stated that players had better get used to the idea!) because he (or Hibs) wanted to avoid the situation where we can't move on unwanted players.

truehibernian
08-05-2011, 02:40 PM
You simply have to give a manager a few windows before you really start judging his teams. Look at Owain Coyle and more recently Jim McIntyre say. In the First Division these managers cut their teeth, had a few windows and created good sides. In the latter case, I am pretty sure the pressure was on for a club like Dunfermline to get out that division as soon as possible for financial reasons, however they are to be commended for sticking by the manager, having faith in his vision, and allowing him to over time develop a good footballing side.

We as fans deserve to give CC the same time, patience and support. I have made my feelings known on Hughes too often to repeat. But in CC we do have a very, very good manager who is proven at every level he has managed at. Give him plenty time is my stance.

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 02:58 PM
54 points from 38 games = 1.42 points per game.

It would have been much higher over the first 30 games too. Yogi certainly signed a good few players but if his first 8 months had been like Calderwood's he would never have made it to a third transfer window.

I'm guessing that he was playing Hogg, Nish and Rankin because they were a major part of a team who had an excellent defensive record and lost only 4 games in 7 months. He dropped them before the end of his reign.

Regardless, I do not wish to have these same arguments over again, I'm glad he's gone - I just would like the same rules applied to our new manager.

Sorry I meant this season when he left last year - I'm sure its poorer than CC's. To think Yogi is blameless for the mess is flawed IMHO.

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 04:09 PM
Sorry I meant this season when he left last year - I'm sure its poorer than CC's. To think Yogi is blameless for the mess is flawed IMHO.

Beefster stated that Yogi was averaging 0.7 points per game this season before his departure.

I have never, ever stated that Yogi is blameless -I'm happy he's no longer here, so you can assume that I wasn't happy with where he was taking us.

On the flipside, you simply cannot blame Hughes for everything - especially when he's been gone 8 months. Your feelings on Yogi are perfectly clear, but I have no agenda, I'm not trying to paint anything differently to what it is on either side.

But I'm sure we could go on forever, and neither one of us is going to change the other's mind.

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 04:15 PM
Nope. I'm saying a manager needs more time than some are giving Calderwood. We've a crap squad and it takes time to sort.

I said when he was appointed that he needed until the end of next season and again when folk were drooling over him during February and March. At this point in his tenure, it's pointless dishing out huge criticism or praise. Judge him, positively or negatively, when he's had a fair crack of the whip and a chance to adequately change the squad.

I didn't write off Craig Brown either. I said he was no longer the poster boy for why Calderwood isn't the answer.

No argument from me there. Indeed, that's never been my argument - I don't want him sacked. But you stated that you can't just ignore form and that is exactly what you are doing - though with a perfectly reasonable rationale.

We could go on forever, and we both want what's best for Hibs and we both want my doubts to be proven premature. But my only argument has ever been that I can't understand why so many are putting their trust in Calderwood despite the similarities in our fortunes to Yogi's latter period in charge - I just wanted to know if there was a reason that I wasn't seeing, but no one has managed to enlighten me.

Regardless, I'm glad that people are putting their trust in CC though - long may it continue.
Fair enough re: Craig Brown.

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 04:39 PM
Beefster stated that Yogi was averaging 0.7 points per game this season before his departure.

I have never, ever stated that Yogi is blameless -I'm happy he's no longer here, so you can assume that I wasn't happy with where he was taking us.

On the flipside, you simply cannot blame Hughes for everything - especially when he's been gone 8 months. Your feelings on Yogi are perfectly clear, but I have no agenda, I'm not trying to paint anything differently to what it is on either side.

But I'm sure we could go on forever, and neither one of us is going to change the other's mind.

CC's made mistakes - sure he'd admit that.

You said Yogi couldn't be blamed for form under CC .. I'm not sure that is the case he left a total mess with a poor squad bereft of confidence. CC had 3 months before he could add new personnel.

If I replaced Fergie with one game to go and ManUre won the league would it be all my doing? Hardly. Similarly, we cannot detach Yogi from where we are IMO.

sesoim
08-05-2011, 04:43 PM
Sure Forrest must have had more than 12k season tickets when calderwood took them up...


What about when he was taking them back down the following season (till Davies saved the day)?

sesoim
08-05-2011, 04:56 PM
So just out of interest, from a purely financial viewpoint, how do you expect Hibs to get better with less support?



A few teams with much less support are going to finish above us this season. By rights, even if our average crowd went down to 8,000 next season (which it wont), we'd still be the 5th biggest supported club in the country, with one of the lowest debts, so by rights we should still do a lot better next season than we have this season.

It is Hibs who have let the support down badly over the years, by failing to get a team on the park that matches the crowds. If the crowds keep going down, then that will just reflect the failings of Petrie and his ability to appoint the right manager.

matty_f
08-05-2011, 05:13 PM
What about when he was taking them back down the following season (till Davies saved the day)?

What about it? A manager takes a team up that struggles the next season - hardly unusual. There will be better managers than Calderwood have found themselves in that position.

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 05:16 PM
A few teams with much less support are going to finish above us this season. By rights, even if our average crowd went down to 8,000 next season (which it wont), we'd still be the 5th biggest supported club in the country, with one of the lowest debts, so by rights we should still do a lot better next season than we have this season.

It is Hibs who have let the support down badly over the years, by failing to get a team on the park that matches the crowds. If the crowds keep going down, then that will just reflect the failings of Petrie and his ability to appoint the right manager.

:agree: The team has for too long played second fiddle to the Balance Sheet. None more so than recently, when we have increased the capacity to an unnecessary level. We didn't need 21k in good footballing and economic times under TM why we need it now is beyond me. Now we have no cash, more debt, falling income/attendances and a piss poor team. All in all, good work by the Board :wink:

matty_f
08-05-2011, 05:20 PM
:agree: The team has for too long played second fiddle to the Balance Sheet. None more so than recently, when we have increased the capacity to an unnecessary level. We didn't need 21k in good footballing and economic times under TM why we need it now is beyond me. Now we have no cash, more debt, falling income/attendances and a piss poor team. All in all, good work by the Board :wink:

TQM, how does your claim that the team plays second fiddle to the balance sheet rack up against the fact that there was zero room for extra spending in the last accounts where you yourself have repeatedly made the point about player sales being necessary to balance the books?

Also, if you want the board to invest, you should consider going to Easter Road now and again.:greengrin

Stevie Reid
08-05-2011, 05:21 PM
You said Yogi couldn't be blamed for form under CC.

No I didn't - AGAIN, I'm happy Yogi is gone, meaning he is culpable; just nowhere near as much as Calderwood. All throughout my last few posts I've just stated that many fans are glossing over things that Hughes was hauled over the coals for (rightly, in most cases). I've been balanced, but I believe others have not.



If I replaced Fergie with one game to go and ManUre won the league would it be all my doing? Hardly. Similarly, we cannot detach Yogi from where we are IMO.

Ridiculous point really. But on that theme, if a manager retired in October and a team wins the league in May, do you give the manager who retired ALL the credit?

Anyway, I'm done - I've made all my points, nothing is going to change for either of us.

Ed De Gramo
08-05-2011, 05:25 PM
I have real issues with the club at present but still go regardless (not blind loyality as I have my share of grumps), but because it is in my blood, and I will be there long after Board members or players are gone....The Board are merely custodians of the Club.....

Bit in bold :top marks

I renewed as soon as it was announced.

Have been to all 36 so far and i'm looking forward to ICT on wednesday :agree:

DH1875
08-05-2011, 05:25 PM
But you are ignoring our form at the moment, are you not? 8 months of form under Calderwood.

In saying that, I'm not sure that you actually read the post properly as I haven't trashed Calderwood anywhere in my post, I've just assessed his performance since his arrival and even stated that "I'm not saying that CC is a bad manager or the wrong man" - I also said that I was glad Yogi was gone and didn't want him back, thus not ignoring anyone's form.

I'm perfectly aware of how crap we were for the final stages of last season thanks very much, and I don't think anyone was expecting miracles when Calderwood took over, I certainly wasn't - and I wasn't saying that we should be as good as Hearts, just that we shouldn't be anywhere near 26 points behind them. Just as the fact that we were only 3 points behind Hearts because we were only 7 games into the season, the fact that we were one point off bottom after the same number of games didn't mean that we should expect a relegation battle - we have never had anywhere near the worst squad in the SPL. But, as per your argument - if the squad was so bad, surely Yogi performed a miracle by getting us to 4th.

Did you honestly think when Calderwood was appointed that his remit was simply to avoid relegation? Neither board or supporters would accept that. And how come achieving 4th in the SPL and qualifying for Europe is no kind of achievement for Yogi, yet simply avoiding a complete and utter disaster (and no more) is worthy of a pat on the back for CC? Lots of Hibs managers have simply kept us in the SPL, hardly any have had us as high as 4th. As I said in my previous post, you are not playing fair.

Incidentally, I'm not making things harder for the manager at all, what a ridiculous thing to say. My ST for next season is already bought, so I am therefore doing all I can to back the manager - I've every right to raise my concerns on here though.

For what it's worth, Craig Brown's percentages are better than Calderwood's and Aberdeen were safer before we were - why write off Brown and not Calderwood?


You the man, top stuff :thumbsup:.

matty_f
08-05-2011, 05:26 PM
Bit in bold :top marks

I renewed as soon as it was announced.

Have been to all 36 so far and i'm looking forward to ICT on wednesday :agree:

I renewed early doors too, but the bit in bold - you are mental!! :greengrin

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 08:34 PM
TQM, how does your claim that the team plays second fiddle to the balance sheet rack up against the fact that there was zero room for extra spending in the last accounts where you yourself have repeatedly made the point about player sales being necessary to balance the books?

The cash has gone .. We added debt for the East - so any real investment will only come from new capital - something neither of the substantive owners will commit to.

It is not difficult to fathom M - the last operating profit coincided with some success eg the CIS and a team way ahead of that we have seen since. With the team being poor income will fall .. Fewer STs, walk ups, league points and SPL income etc, poorer earnings from the cups etc.

Given the way we are going, we'll need me and 7-8,000 mates also! That's not going to happen without some decent signings and some very decent football.

marinello59
08-05-2011, 08:36 PM
The cash has gone .. We added debt for the East - so any real investment will only come from new capital - something neither of the substantive owners will commit to.

It is not difficult to fathom M - the last operating profit coincided with some success eg the CIS and a team way ahead of that we have seen since. With the team being poor income will fall .. Fewer STs, walk ups, league points and SPL income etc, poorer earnings from the cups etc.

Given the way we are going, we'll need me and 7-8,000 mates also! That's not going to happen with some decent signings and some very decent football.

So can we assume you are not going to renew this season then?

matty_f
08-05-2011, 08:37 PM
The cash has gone .. We added debt for the East - so any real investment will only come from new capital - something neither of the substantive owners will commit to.

It is not difficult to fathom M - the last operating profit coincided with some success eg the CIS and a team way ahead of that we have seen since. With the team being poor income will fall .. Fewer STs, walk ups, league points and SPL income etc, poorer earnings from the cups etc.

Given the way we are going, we'll need me and 7-8,000 mates also! That's not going to happen with some decent signings and some very decent football.

I take it you mean without some decent signings etc? :greengrin

To be honest, we need you, your mates, my mates (both of them) and their mates if we want to put a side on the pitch that we want to watch because they are really good players.

Without us and our mates we'll always have a team that fails to deliver more often than it delivers, we'll always be looking for a miracle worker for a manager, and we'll always be moaning about the quality of the football.

greenlex
08-05-2011, 08:38 PM
The cash has gone .. We added debt for the East - so any real investment will only come from new capital - something neither of the substantive owners will commit to.

It is not difficult to fathom M - the last operating profit coincided with some success eg the CIS and a team way ahead of that we have seen since. With the team being poor income will fall .. Fewer STs, walk ups, league points and SPL income etc, poorer earnings from the cups etc.

Given the way we are going, we'll need me and 7-8,000 mates also! That's not going to happen with some decent signings and some very decent football.
Why ever not?:confused:

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 08:44 PM
Why ever not?:confused:

Typo - meant 'without' .. sorted it now but not before you and others pounced :wink:

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 08:47 PM
So can we assume you are not going to renew this season then?

We've established before that I've never had a ST.

greenlex
08-05-2011, 08:49 PM
Typo - meant 'without' .. sorted it now but not before you and others pounced :wink:
I knew that but couldnt resist.:greengrin Dangerous things typo's:greengrin

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 08:51 PM
Ridiculous point really. But on that theme, if a manager retired in October and a team wins the league in May, do you give the manager who retired ALL the credit?

Anyway, I'm done - I've made all my points, nothing is going to change for either of us.

The point is we cannot divorce where we are from the mess Yogi left. I think a more 'balanced' view would be allowing CC time eg 3 windows are per Yogi to sign more of his own players.

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 08:52 PM
I knew that but couldnt resist.:greengrin Dangerous things typo's:greengrin

Bassa! :grr:

:greengrin

new malkyhib
08-05-2011, 09:37 PM
TQM, how does your claim that the team plays second fiddle to the balance sheet rack up against the fact that there was zero room for extra spending in the last accounts where you yourself have repeatedly made the point about player sales being necessary to balance the books?

Also, if you want the board to invest, you should consider going to Easter Road now and again.:greengrin

I'm curioius as to the rationale from the Board for spending £10m combined on the stadium and the training centre to be honest...I wonder if we hadn't spent it if that same sum would've been lavished on the team?

blackpoolhibs
08-05-2011, 09:45 PM
I'm curioius as to the rationale from the Board for spending £10m combined on the stadium and the training centre to be honest...I wonder if we hadn't spent it if that same sum would've been lavished on the team?

I'm not sure it would have made the slightest difference if we had spent that money on the team instead of the infrastructure. Previous managers have been useless, the jurys out on this one, teams who have spent half as much as we have are finishing above us, why?

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 10:16 PM
I'm not sure it would have made the slightest difference if we had spent that money on the team instead of the infrastructure. Previous managers have been useless, the jurys out on this one, teams who have spent half as much as we have are finishing above us, why?

More money = better players and more choice, in my mind. As well as possibly holding on to the better ones a bit longer.

blackpoolhibs
08-05-2011, 10:32 PM
More money = better players and more choice, in my mind. As well as possibly holding on to the better ones a bit longer.

Clubs that spend half of what we do are finishing above us, how much more than twice their spending should we be doing to guarantee this not happening?

IWasThere2016
08-05-2011, 10:58 PM
Clubs that spend half of what we do are finishing above us, how much more than twice their spending should we be doing to guarantee this not happening?

No guarantees but it might have meant avoiding:

JC - Courier, Hong Long Thierry etc

Mixu - Keenan, Thicot etc

Yogi - Cregg, Trakys etc

And their subsequent pay-offs.

I know if I was recruiting a workforce have a larger budget to pay more would be something I'd want to attract better staff.

The case in point may be true of the managers also - JJ, Levein, Paw Broon, J Calderwood etc most likely earned more than JC, Mixu and Yogi :dunno:

greenlex
09-05-2011, 08:10 AM
I'm curioius as to the rationale from the Board for spending £10m combined on the stadium and the training centre to be honest...I wonder if we hadn't spent it if that same sum would've been lavished on the team?

It a chicken and egg thing. We have ourself a chicken. We need it to produce eggs. Or is it we have ourselves some eggs and need it to produce some chickens?

Andy Bee
09-05-2011, 10:19 AM
It a chicken and egg thing. We have ourself a chicken. We need it to produce eggs. Or is it we have ourselves some eggs and need it to produce some chickens?

Apparently we've to forget the eggs and catch 22 chickens :dunno:

Big Frank
09-05-2011, 06:53 PM
If I had £136,000,000 I would pump £36,000,000 into Hibernian over the next 5years, giving my manager the funds to put together a team to pump hertz and gie the uglies a real run for their money.

I would still have £100,000,000 plus interest in my bank.


:wink: