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Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:01 AM
To the current incumbents of the Board, and I hope to God one of them gets passed this to read........

We have a terrific infrastructure in place, to which you have done well to achieve... A great training complex at East Mains, and a terrific Stadium to boot.....

However, NOW is the time to invest in the playing squad, and add some REAL quality...... There is no point in the Stadium being a third full on matchdays, we have to see some quality additions in the Summer or fans will be lost, maybe even for good.....

The fans want to see a successful team on the park, and pay handsomely to do so.....If quality is not added revenue will almost certainly be down.... At AGM in October then the re-arranged AGM after Hughes departed, Fife Hyland (now MD), said he was looking at ways to increase revenue and turnover, well I put it to you Mr Petrie and Mr Hyland, that the only real way of achieving that goal is by putting a watchable product on the park......

Please show us some level of ambition, give us a team to be excited about, if you are not willing to bring in quality, then you do not deserve to be custodians of our wonderful Club...... Time to step up to the plate Gentlemen.

matty_f
02-05-2011, 10:08 AM
Ten pages. :agree:

I agree with the sentiments of the o.p., but I would add that if we are calling on the board to invest then we as a support have to give them the means to do it, through season ticket purchases etc.

The board should (and are) be looking for other revenue streams but the fundamental principles of the club are that season ticket money goes directly on the team on the pitch.

If we want genuine quality players we need to dip into our pockets once more and help fund it.

I we do that and the board fail to back cc, then they should be held accountable. They can't, however, spend money that isn't there.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:09 AM
Is this a takeove bid?

Eh? :confused:

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:11 AM
Ten pages. :agree:

I agree with the sentiments of the o.p., but I would add that if we are calling on the board to invest then we as a support have to give them the means to do it, through season ticket purchases etc.

The board should (and are) be looking for other revenue streams but the fundamental principles of the club are that season ticket money goes directly on the team on the pitch.

If we want genuine quality players we need to dip into our pockets once more and help fund it.

I we do that and the board fail to back cc, then they should be held accountable. They can't, however, spend money that isn't there.

Chicken and Egg scenario Matty, fans want to see what signings are made before investing... Maybe now is the time for the Board to speculate to accumulate?

gorgie_harp
02-05-2011, 10:13 AM
To the current incumbents of the Board, and I hope to God one of them gets passed this to read........

We have a terrific infrastructure in place, to which you have done well to achieve... A great training complex at East Mains, and a terrific Stadium to boot.....

However, NOW is the time to invest in the playing squad, and add some REAL quality...... There is no point in the Stadium being a third full on matchdays, we have to see some quality additions in the Summer or fans will be lost, maybe even for good.....

The fans want to see a successful team on the park, and pay handsomely to do so.....If quality is not added revenue will almost certainly be down.... At AGM in October then the re-arranged AGM after Hughes departed, Fife Hyland (now MD), said he was looking at ways to increase revenue and turnover, well I put it to you Mr Petrie and Mr Hyland, that the only real way of achieving that goal is by putting a watchable product on the park......

Please show us some level of ambition, give us a team to be excited about, if you are not willing to bring in quality, then you do not deserve to be custodians of our wonderful Club...... Time to step up to the plate Gentlemen.

Spot on mate.:top marks:agree:

Phil D. Rolls
02-05-2011, 10:15 AM
Eh? :confused:

You can't go issuing ultimatums (LH, is this right), without an alternative strategy.

Fans: Invest or leave.
Board: Naw.
Fans: Please?

CropleyWasGod
02-05-2011, 10:15 AM
Devil's advocate...

Where is the money to come from?

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:17 AM
You can't go issuing ultimatums (LH, is this right), without an alternative strategy.

Fans: Invest or leave.
Board: Naw.
Fans: Please?

Ultimatum is clear FR, if no quality is added fans will not bother going......

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:17 AM
Devil's advocate...

Where is the money to come from?

Managable level of debt........ Other teams do it

truehibernian
02-05-2011, 10:20 AM
You can only invest with the finances you have got in place though. That is the strategy we work to as a club and to be honest, in this day and age, who could argue that it is the best policy at present.

The football side of things is again, to be honest, in quite a good position to work from. Lots of players we have all been shouting about getting rid of are now going. It is up to CC and DA to prove they have an eye for talent, within budget, to replace with better. I am sure they will, and if anything, the last few games have given them the perfect indication of where the team needs strengthened.

I would honestly rather be Hibernian than say Dundee Utd, Aberdeen or Motherwell, to compare competitors. Hearts are of course a wee law unto themselves and who knows what budgets they operate to anymore.

Take United - they are about to lose three star players for diddly squat this summer. Good, influential players that would walk into any other SPL side. Not a penny in though. Houston now has a real test of his management to see if he can get in players as good or better.......has he really been tested in the transfer market ? I would say this summer is the acid test. (no complete stadium or training ground to call their own)

Motherwell - they are going to lose Sutton, possibly Jennings, they sold Reynolds, and they are bound to get offers for young Murphy in the summer. Again, McCall got a tune out the side this last few games, but he has not been tested in the transfer windows. (no complete stadium or training ground)

Aberdeen - new stadium seems to be more pressing than football matters and Craig Brown now on record saying they can only replace like with like in number terms......they cannot add to squad really and certainly are working on a reduced budget. They will also lose Aluko (potentially), Hartley (age), and Diamond (to Hearts).....Brown does have decent contacts however with his time in England......similar to CC I would say. (about to move stadium, still train on community/university pitches)

I agree the football team needs a radical overhaul, however we are going to witness it in summer. Also add in Crawford, Welsh (hopefully) and the likes of possibly young Handling, Smith and Horner........patience and support is vital.

I know we are now long in the tooth to this "in transition" phrase..........but it has never ever more prevalent then now. In SPL and size of club terms, Hibs have always invested properly and in accordance with our position in Scottish football IMHO.......not to some's liking of course, but I accept it and agree with it as a fan and supporter. For me it is the players that have let the club down this season......not the Board.

lapsedhibee
02-05-2011, 10:23 AM
You can't go issuing ultimatums (LH, is this right), without an alternative strategy.


Must be. Plural's never have an apostrophe.

Andy Bee
02-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Ten pages. :agree:

I agree with the sentiments of the o.p., but I would add that if we are calling on the board to invest then we as a support have to give them the means to do it, through season ticket purchases etc.

The board should (and are) be looking for other revenue streams but the fundamental principles of the club are that season ticket money goes directly on the team on the pitch.

If we want genuine quality players we need to dip into our pockets once more and help fund it.

I we do that and the board fail to back cc, then they should be held accountable. They can't, however, spend money that isn't there.


TBF that's like Sir Tom asking his customers to just buy these chocolate exhausts until I have enough cash to get the real thing, you just can't expect people to shell out on a shoddy product, Hibs aint a charity.

IMO it's down to the manager, with so many out of contract and the wages saved because of it it's down to CC to make sure he gets the right quality, 3 out 1 in :agree:

CropleyWasGod
02-05-2011, 10:24 AM
Must be. Plural's never have an apostrophe.

Ultimata :wink:

Pedantic_Hibee
02-05-2011, 10:26 AM
You can only invest with the finances you have got in place though. That is the strategy we work to as a club and to be honest, in this day and age, who could argue that it is the best policy at present.

The football side of things is again, to be honest, in quite a good position to work from. Lots of players we have all been shouting about getting rid of are now going. It is up to CC and DA to prove they have an eye for talent, within budget, to replace with better. I am sure they will, and if anything, the last few games have given them the perfect indication of where the team needs strengthened.

I would honestly rather be Hibernian than say Dundee Utd, Aberdeen or Motherwell, to compare competitors. Hearts are of course a wee law unto themselves and who knows what budgets they operate to anymore.

Take United - they are about to lose three star players for diddly squat this summer. Good, influential players that would walk into any other SPL side. Not a penny in though. Houston now has a real test of his management to see if he can get in players as good or better.......has he really been tested in the transfer market ? I would say this summer is the acid test. (no complete stadium or training ground to call their own)

Motherwell - they are going to lose Sutton, possibly Jennings, they sold Reynolds, and they are bound to get offers for young Murphy in the summer. Again, McCall got a tune out the side this last few games, but he has not been tested in the transfer windows. (no complete stadium or training ground)

Aberdeen - new stadium seems to be more pressing than football matters and Craig Brown now on record saying they can only replace like with like in number terms......they cannot add to squad really and certainly are working on a reduced budget. They will also lose Aluko (potentially), Hartley (age), and Diamond (to Hearts).....Brown does have decent contacts however with his time in England......similar to CC I would say. (about to move stadium, still train on community/university pitches)

I agree the football team needs a radical overhaul, however we are going to witness it in summer. Also add in Crawford, Welsh (hopefully) and the likes of possibly young Handling, Smith and Horner........patience and support is vital.

I know we are now long in the tooth to this "in transition" phrase..........but it has never ever more prevalent then now. In SPL and size of club terms, Hibs have always invested properly and in accordance with our position in Scottish football IMHO.......not to some's liking of course, but I accept it and agree with it as a fan and supporter. For me it is the players that have let the club down this season......not the Board.

As ever, TH, the calculated and composed voice of reason amongst the hyperbole so often displayed on this board.

Some good points from the OP however and to echo the sentiments, it's a chicken and egg scenario. Maybe a bit of give and take, perchance? i.e the board bring in someone like Sproule for example and then say "Back us and buy season tickets in your droves and we'll provide signings of this ilk".

Someone has to start the ball rolling rather than us having an old school disco with us stuck to one wall and the board on the adjacent wall with everyone waiting for someone to make the first move.

ancient hibee
02-05-2011, 10:29 AM
Managable level of debt........ Other teams do it
Do they?Rangers are going to lose the title because they were forced to sell Miller for £300K-a disastrous decision-but I suspect by Lloyds not Rangers.Kilmarnock are for sale-no buyers-Dundee United will be next in trouble as Thompson Junior doesn't want to see the family fortune disappear altogether.I don't think there is much chance of Hibs trotting along to the bank and suggesting we are loaned a few million so we can finish third in the league.

Pretty Boy
02-05-2011, 10:32 AM
Managable level of debt........ Other teams do it

Unless i'm mistaken our last accounts showed that was roughy the financial position we where in - a manageable level of debt.

There seems to be this belief that Hibs are debt free or virtually debt free but this is simply not the case. There are still overdrafts, mortgages and day to day debts. Don't get me wrong Hibs are better placed financially than most in the SPL but we are still opearting with a burden of debt. Getting into more debt with no guarantee of success and/or European football to balance it off is a route we should be careful of treading.

On saying that i don't totally disagree with the sentiment in your original post, we do need investment on the park to keep fans attending and attract new fans along. I have a feeling we may see a bit of money spent in the summer on young guys with potential sell on value down the line. The Hibs board have built up a sound infastructure that will pay dividends in the coming years. In future years when clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc are spending money building new stadiums, adequate training facilities and whatever else we will be 2 or 3 steps ahead and be able to channel income into the football side of the business.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:34 AM
You can only invest with the finances you have got in place though. That is the strategy we work to as a club and to be honest, in this day and age, who could argue that it is the best policy at present.

The football side of things is again, to be honest, in quite a good position to work from. Lots of players we have all been shouting about getting rid of are now going. It is up to CC and DA to prove they have an eye for talent, within budget, to replace with better. I am sure they will, and if anything, the last few games have given them the perfect indication of where the team needs strengthened.

I would honestly rather be Hibernian than say Dundee Utd, Aberdeen or Motherwell, to compare competitors. Hearts are of course a wee law unto themselves and who knows what budgets they operate to anymore.

Take United - they are about to lose three star players for diddly squat this summer. Good, influential players that would walk into any other SPL side. Not a penny in though. Houston now has a real test of his management to see if he can get in players as good or better.......has he really been tested in the transfer market ? I would say this summer is the acid test. (no complete stadium or training ground to call their own)

Motherwell - they are going to lose Sutton, possibly Jennings, they sold Reynolds, and they are bound to get offers for young Murphy in the summer. Again, McCall got a tune out the side this last few games, but he has not been tested in the transfer windows. (no complete stadium or training ground)

Aberdeen - new stadium seems to be more pressing than football matters and Craig Brown now on record saying they can only replace like with like in number terms......they cannot add to squad really and certainly are working on a reduced budget. They will also lose Aluko (potentially), Hartley (age), and Diamond (to Hearts).....Brown does have decent contacts however with his time in England......similar to CC I would say. (about to move stadium, still train on community/university pitches)

I agree the football team needs a radical overhaul, however we are going to witness it in summer. Also add in Crawford, Welsh (hopefully) and the likes of possibly young Handling, Smith and Horner........patience and support is vital.

I know we are now long in the tooth to this "in transition" phrase..........but it has never ever more prevalent then now. In SPL and size of club terms, Hibs have always invested properly and in accordance with our position in Scottish football IMHO.......not to some's liking of course, but I accept it and agree with it as a fan and supporter. For me it is the players that have let the club down this season......not the Board.

Fair points.....We have to bring quality in now though, we can't rely on the youngsters getting us into the top six next season.... We have a huge potential fanbase, a couple of decent quality singings may just entice more bums on seats and add a couple of thousand onto the gates.... How long have Hibs been in transition? We could and should be a major force in the SPL, sadly at the moment we are far from it.......

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:36 AM
Unless i'm mistaken our last accounts showed that was roughy the financial position we where in - a manageable level of debt.

There seems to be this belief that Hibs are debt free or virtually debt free but this is simply not the case. There are still overdrafts, mortgages and day to day debts. Don't get me wrong Hibs are better placed financially than most in the SPL but we are still opearting with a burden of debt. Getting into more debt with no guarantee of success and/or European football to balance it off is a route we should be careful of treading.

On saying that i don't totally disagree with the sentiment in your original post, we do need investment on the park to keep fans attending and attract new fans along. I have a feeling we may see a bit of money spent in the summer on young guys with potential sell on value down the line. The Hibs board have built up a sound infastructure that will pay dividends in the coming years. In future years when clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc are spending money building new stadiums, adequate training facilities and whatever else we will be 2 or 3 steps ahead and be able to channel income into the football side of the business.

In the current economic climate Pretty Boy, I reckon there will be a host of quality players looking for new clubs. I just hope we can entice them by paying a reasonable wage, you only get what you pay for.....

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 10:39 AM
Do they?Rangers are going to lose the title because they were forced to sell Miller for £300K-a disastrous decision-but I suspect by Lloyds not Rangers.Kilmarnock are for sale-no buyers-Dundee United will be next in trouble as Thompson Junior doesn't want to see the family fortune disappear altogether.I don't think there is much chance of Hibs trotting along to the bank and suggesting we are loaned a few million so we can finish third in the league.

Hibs are not in the same level of debt as say Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, at least we have a managable level that is not astronomic, and not paying massive weekly interest like the other teams mentioned.... That is surely a bonus in this day and age, but obviously without going up to our neck in debt, we can surely bring in a better level of player than we currently have

Cocaine&Caviar
02-05-2011, 10:47 AM
I have to ask,

when Utd let Goodwillie, Bauben, Gomis and maybe even Kenneth go in the summer, do you think they will reinvest that money to keep them at the level they are currently performing at?

Not a chance, as shown with their releasing players like Myrie-Williams, Casinuovo, Sandaza etc in recent times, there is no money in their accounts for it, same as there isnt for us. This is the climate that all our competitors, Utd, Aberdeen, Well etc have to live with in the current climate, with only Hearts & the OF able to invest significantly in terms of transfer fees and wages.

Pretty Boy
02-05-2011, 10:47 AM
In the current economic climate Pretty Boy, I reckon there will be a host of quality players looking for new clubs. I just hope we can entice them by paying a reasonable wage, you only get what you pay for.....

Of course.

It is clear the playing side of things needs a real overhaul. The board have proved in the past that if the manager identifies a player that he feels will benefit the squad then they will sanction the move. They allowed Hughes to bring in Stokes and Miller, one for a fee and both on a decent wage. Mixu brought back Riordan for a fair wedge and Collins was given a huge weekly wage for one Alan O'Brien.

Hopefully the board and manager see what we all see and moves are made early in the summer to allow us build and gel a team ready to hit the ground running next year.

grunt
02-05-2011, 10:51 AM
Hibs are not in the same level of debt as say Rangers, Celtic, Hearts ...I think Celtic have a similar level of debt to us, and they have 8 or 9 times our turnover with which to service it.

Hibs Class
02-05-2011, 10:56 AM
To the current incumbents of the Board, and I hope to God one of them gets passed this to read........

We have a terrific infrastructure in place, to which you have done well to achieve... A great training complex at East Mains, and a terrific Stadium to boot.....

However, NOW is the time to invest in the playing squad, and add some REAL quality...... There is no point in the Stadium being a third full on matchdays, we have to see some quality additions in the Summer or fans will be lost, maybe even for good.....

The fans want to see a successful team on the park, and pay handsomely to do so.....If quality is not added revenue will almost certainly be down.... At AGM in October then the re-arranged AGM after Hughes departed, Fife Hyland (now MD), said he was looking at ways to increase revenue and turnover, well I put it to you Mr Petrie and Mr Hyland, that the only real way of achieving that goal is by putting a watchable product on the park......

Please show us some level of ambition, give us a team to be excited about, if you are not willing to bring in quality, then you do not deserve to be custodians of our wonderful Club...... Time to step up to the plate Gentlemen.

:agree: with this bit in particular.

Seveno
02-05-2011, 11:01 AM
Chicken and Egg scenario Matty, fans want to see what signings are made before investing... Maybe now is the time for the Board to speculate to accumulate?

Speculate is just that. No guarantee of a return.

Speculation can only be justified where there is spare cash available. It can never be justified if it involves debt and we have seen so many examples of this in the past and the present.

Give me Rod Petrie over David Murray any day.

NORTHERNHIBBY
02-05-2011, 11:03 AM
Just now we have the equivalent of a top of the range garage and forecourt for a dealer that sells old bangers. The board are not that naive as to think that the current level of investment in the team, will go anywhere near the amount needed to fill a 21,000 ground. I am more than sure that we will see decent money spent in the close season. Any other strategy does not make sense.

smurf
02-05-2011, 11:05 AM
We desparately need the right kind of activity at ER this summer. Otherwise season ticket sales will yet again drop.

The board have got to recognise that only positive moves in recruitment will shift season tickets.

We are not looking, expecting or wanting the club to be daft and spend silly.

What we want to see is a sign of genuine ambition. Not words of intent and ambition but action.

And it needs more than bringing back old faces.

I just really hope the board are aware of just how low feelings are within the support at the moment.

They need to address it and by doing so the support would IMHO respond positively.

Big Frank
02-05-2011, 11:10 AM
To the current incumbents of the Board, and I hope to God one of them gets passed this to read........

We have a terrific infrastructure in place, to which you have done well to achieve... A great training complex at East Mains, and a terrific Stadium to boot.....

However, NOW is the time to invest in the playing squad, and add some REAL quality...... There is no point in the Stadium being a third full on matchdays, we have to see some quality additions in the Summer or fans will be lost, maybe even for good.....

The fans want to see a successful team on the park, and pay handsomely to do so.....If quality is not added revenue will almost certainly be down.... At AGM in October then the re-arranged AGM after Hughes departed, Fife Hyland (now MD), said he was looking at ways to increase revenue and turnover, well I put it to you Mr Petrie and Mr Hyland, that the only real way of achieving that goal is by putting a watchable product on the park......

Please show us some level of ambition, give us a team to be excited about, if you are not willing to bring in quality, then you do not deserve to be custodians of our wonderful Club...... Time to step up to the plate Gentlemen.


Good stuff Baldy :agree:

The ball is most definately in the Boards' court.

I feel the fans have stood up and been counted over the last few years.

Quality not quantity required at ER.

Dalkeith
02-05-2011, 11:13 AM
We desparately need the right kind of activity at ER this summer. Otherwise season ticket sales will yet again drop.

The board have got to recognise that only positive moves in recruitment will shift season tickets.

We are not looking, expecting or wanting the club to be daft and spend silly.

What we want to see is a sign of genuine ambition. Not words of intent and ambition but action.

And it needs more than bringing back old faces.

I just really hope the board are aware of just how low feelings are within the support at the moment.

They need to address it and by doing so the support would IMHO respond positively.

If the board show a sign of genuine ambition then i will renew my ST without that sign then i won't spend another penny at ER thats how low i am after 40+ years

Antifa Hibs
02-05-2011, 11:18 AM
We desparately need the right kind of activity at ER this summer. Otherwise season ticket sales will yet again drop.

The board have got to recognise that only positive moves in recruitment will shift season tickets.

We are not looking, expecting or wanting the club to be daft and spend silly.

What we want to see is a sign of genuine ambition. Not words of intent and ambition but action.

And it needs more than bringing back old faces.

I just really hope the board are aware of just how low feelings are within the support at the moment.

They need to address it and by doing so the support would IMHO respond positively.

Not often I'll agree with you but that is spot on.

No one is wanting us to go back to the days of De La Cruz, Zitelli, paying wages we really can't afford. But a signing of £300/£400k, is that really too much for Hibs? Get him paraded in the press, make a big deal of it, get the excitement back.



Incidentally, when was the last signing that got us really excited? Riordan? Stokes maybe?

Ray_
02-05-2011, 11:19 AM
We desparately need the right kind of activity at ER this summer. Otherwise season ticket sales will yet again drop.

The board have got to recognise that only positive moves in recruitment will shift season tickets.

We are not looking, expecting or wanting the club to be daft and spend silly.

What we want to see is a sign of genuine ambition. Not words of intent and ambition but action.

And it needs more than bringing back old faces.

I just really hope the board are aware of just how low feelings are within the support at the moment.

They need to address it and by doing so the support would IMHO respond positively.

Totally agree, since 2006/7 we have gone from the most entertaining side in Scotland, to four years of utter garbage & I've gone from person who paid biweekly, to watch 20 minutes of a Hibs game, in my lunch hour, to somebody who struggles to turn on the T.V. when Hibs are on.

Since my first game in 1965, I've never felt anywhere near as apathetic towards Hibs as I do now & if somebody had told me I'd ever feel like this, I would never have believed them.

Bad Martini
02-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Nobody in their right mind is looking for Messi quality. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting a return to McLeish-esque spending...

We are all saying, we need better than what we have gotten before. If that's down to all the managers, then fair play but its hard to believe at least some of the reason why we got some utter sheite on the park was down to the budget.

So, we'll see come Summer. This season is (another) write off. Let it be noted that if we have yet (another) "transitional" season where everyone makes excuse after excuse for the; manager/board/players/ground/facilities/debt/etc, REGARDLESS of whom or what gets the blame, the fact is season tickets and walk-ups will fall still more.

We took the piss somewhat in expecting a real return to form a couple of seasons ago but NOW, there is no excuse. We've got all the things in place everyone seemed to want; finished stadium, training complex, big names have been punted and we've got nothing else TO spend on save for the team.

No more pish. No more excuses. No more rubbish. NOW, is the time to put every available resource into the team on the pitch or else, as baldyfoghorn and smurf says, we're ****ed. We'll go into a negative circle of decline and end up (ironically) NOT covering our outgoings = debt.

Stick a good team on the pitch, give it yer best and nobody will ask for more. lets invest no more in "infrastructure" as with the best will in the world, a fine infrastructure never scored a frickin goal in it's life, bolted doon the wing or stopped shots on the line. A team, of good players, motivated players, players who want to be here and most importantly, are GOOD enough, will.

ENDOF

3pm
02-05-2011, 11:28 AM
Not often I'll agree with you but that is spot on.

No one is wanting us to go back to the days of De La Cruz, Zitelli, paying wages we really can't afford. But a signing of £300/£400k, is that really too much for Hibs? Get him paraded in the press, make a big deal of it, get the excitement back.



Incidentally, when was the last signing that got us really excited? Riordan? Stokes maybe?

Patrick Cregg. :agree: :not worth

Craig_in_Prague
02-05-2011, 11:28 AM
We've had a very very poor season and I can understand the demand of fans wanting some quality in, and money spent.

I'm sure as always, the manager will get funds which are 'competitive' for the market we operate in.
He should have enough scope to shape his squad to be as close to what he'd like it too be.

We don't need to go throwing money around to get back up to 4th or better.

We need hungry committed players and a management team that get the side bursting a gut week in and week out for the club. Have us fit, organised and wise. Of course, we're all desperate for some quality, i.e. something to enjoy and get us excited.... It's not impossible, but on our budget we need to shop wisely.

All my life I've felt Hibs under achieve. It's frustrating as hell.

CC - over to you.

Sir David Gray
02-05-2011, 11:42 AM
I totally agree with the OP.

Whilst I completely understand the people who are saying that in order to afford to improve the squad, the club needs the fans to invest in season tickets, the club cannot expect the fans to blindly follow the club through thin or thinner.

Let's be honest, bar a couple of good runs including the start of last season and also in season 07/08, we have been getting worse and worse since our League Cup win four years ago. Our final league placing last season was good but our run in the final half of last season was absolutely awful and that continued into this season.

Not everyone who has been at Easter Road in the past few years is someone who will give unconditional support to the club. A lot of people will gladly come out to see Hibs but they're not going to pay £400 a year when they're seeing very few signs of any progress.

I realise that the club has debt that it has to manage and I would not wish to see the club return to the days of about 10 years ago when we were about £20 million in debt, but I refuse to accept that the board is unable to release enough funds to buy three or four high profile signings. If we do that and the club starts next season well then it won't be long before Easter Road starts filling up and then they will get their money back.

I am someone who will go to Easter Road no matter what, I would go and watch Hibs in the third division but this past year or so has really tested my patience with Hibs, this season alone has been one of the most monotonous since I started going to games in the early 90's.

I will be going back next season but, to be perfectly honest, I really have absolutely no appetite for another season like this one.

Viva_Palmeiras
02-05-2011, 11:42 AM
I agree with much of whats been said but would caution on the amount of speculation.

It's not an overnight fix though how long did Levein take to assemble and mould his team? Our already tested patience will be called for yet again still we could have gone for paw broon ;)

truehibernian
02-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Not often I'll agree with you but that is spot on.

No one is wanting us to go back to the days of De La Cruz, Zitelli, paying wages we really can't afford. But a signing of £300/£400k, is that really too much for Hibs? Get him paraded in the press, make a big deal of it, get the excitement back.



Incidentally, when was the last signing that got us really excited? Riordan? Stokes maybe?

Sadly, it is, and the Bosman ruling means that we will no doubt never see a signing for that amount again. Even our financially unastute neighbours in Gorgie are seeing that this is the way forward.

Why provide money for another rivals balance sheet when we can scour the market and get the same if not better for free ?

I know it's infuriating and frustration creeps in when you know that we have all put our money where our mouth is and bought into Hibs. But we simply have to remain realistic and cut the cloth. Any surplus money for me should be invested in youth, as for Hibs, it's key to our club being moderately successful and self financing. The next wee batch are about to filter through and there are a couple of really good players, still very young, but show good signs.

The 'impact signing' can of course still be made......but again, we don't have to shell out a transfer fee to do so IMHO.

Look at Portsmouth for example........all they got for their 'investments' was an FA Cup win. I wonder if the long suffering Pompey fans would swap the cup win for a place in the EPL or top end of the Championship, working within their means and challenging in all competitions ? In the end they were hours away from closure, under FA and Customs and Excise investigation and mid table in their league......all in two seasons. Middlesborough.......jeez if ever there was ever a club that invested badly it's them in the last season........their 'impact signings' of Boyd and Co have been truly awful.

Money is still swishing around down south, however clubs down there are still not living anywhere near their means. They will suffer, but it means in the meantime that our players/targets are undoubtedly going to look down there for financial gain....why wouldn't they after all. It's a job and career.

Hibs also need to look at their pricing strategy urgently. For me it is unacceptable to watch Hibernian for a season for four times that than I could watch Real Zaragoza in La Liga for. It is also unacceptable that walk up prices for games such as bottom 6 are full price. It brings into play the old season ticket debate of course, but I 'pays my fee I takes me chance' at the start of the season......I am not too flustered whether at the end of March watching Hibs v Hamilton I am sitting next to a season ticket holder or a young kid who got in for free and his old man got in for a tenner......as long as we collectively support the team. I appreciate fully though people's views are different on that front.

So many many ways Hibs (the club, not the fans) could be taking and seizing the initiative however have sat back and simply written the season off. Maybe 12 stunning blonde female cheerleaders would be a start instead of watching a guy hit a ball that barely reaches the dugout when trying to hit the boot of a car at the corner flag :greengrin

Hibbyradge
02-05-2011, 11:50 AM
As I see it, Scottish football is in terminal decline.

Only a fool or a madman would invest in it.

Spike Mandela
02-05-2011, 11:56 AM
We will see a big turnover of players this summer but change isn't always for the better. Some will say we can't get worse than what we had but to my mind 'if you pay peanuts all you get is Monkeys' lol.

With our current wages policy the likelihood is we'll get the usual flotsam and jetsum washing up at ER. A few might be decent players but I suspect we'll get the initial few weeks of optimism around the new signings but as their weaknesses and flaws become apparent the usual moans and groans will ring around the stands.

My worry is now that with the level of player we are signing and the dross type of football we are playing what is the incentive for someone to shell out their hard earned cash. We go in to a new season and realistically nobody expects us to challenge for anything, it's all balance sheets and budgets on .net.

We need an injection of excitement pronto or things are just going to fizzle out to mid 80s standards.

Franck is God
02-05-2011, 12:11 PM
If the board show a sign of genuine ambition then i will renew my ST without that sign then i won't spend another penny at ER thats how low i am after 40+ years

Tell me what that 'genuine ambition' looks like?

Was bringing Riordan back from Celtic or Murray from Norwich, Signing Stokes from Sunderland, Persuading Liam Miller to sign a deal. How about Palsson from Liverpool or Thornhill from Forest.

Everyone is talking about Sproule or O'Connor now, is that genuine ambition? How about if we only signed one of those players?

I've said it on other threads before, you either want to support or you don't. The only question is affordability anything else is just an excuse.

blackpoolhibs
02-05-2011, 12:15 PM
Hibs always back the manager, we already have manageable debt. Its the managers job whoever is in the hot seat, to get the right players in.

We do pay decent money, certainly more than a few teams above us in the league. More investment than we can actually afford will only bring back bigger debt, then cut backs as we have all seen before.

Get the right manager and we will be fine.

Do we have the right man, thats what we should be asking?

HUTCHYHIBBY
02-05-2011, 12:15 PM
As I see it, Scottish football is in terminal decline.

Only a fool or a madman would invest in it.

Couldnae agree more. The apathy level amongst guys I used to go to games with week in week out is at an all time high. I made it pretty much every week during the Miller/Blobby eras, but, just cannae be arsed anymore!

smurf
02-05-2011, 12:20 PM
Tell me what that 'genuine ambition' looks like?

Was bringing Riordan back from Celtic or Murray from Norwich, Signing Stokes from Sunderland, Persuading Liam Miller to sign a deal. How about Palsson from Liverpool or Thornhill from Forest.

Everyone is talking about Sproule or O'Connor now, is that genuine ambition? How about if we only signed one of those players?

I've said it on other threads before, you either want to support or you don't. The only question is affordability anything else is just an excuse.

Yet on the park we are constantly turgid.

We change managers. We have huge turnover of players but still we are consistently turgid poo poo.

Since the SPL was established that lanakshire force Motherwell have out performed us.

Our European qualification record is shameful the past thirty years.

Something is rotten within our club.

And the last few years have brought it to a head as far as the support is concerned.

SteveHFC
02-05-2011, 12:21 PM
Tell me what that 'genuine ambition' looks like?

Was bringing Riordan back from Celtic or Murray from Norwich, Signing Stokes from Sunderland, Persuading Liam Miller to sign a deal. How about Palsson from Liverpool or Thornhill from Forest.

Everyone is talking about Sproule or O'Connor now, is that genuine ambition? How about if we only signed one of those players?

I've said it on other threads before, you either want to support or you don't. The only question is affordability anything else is just an excuse.
How about doing what the OF have done for years and get the better players from other teams in spl,

Dirkster23
02-05-2011, 12:38 PM
Hibs always back the manager, we already have manageable debt. Its the managers job whoever is in the hot seat, to get the right players in.

We do pay decent money, certainly more than a few teams above us in the league. More investment than we can actually afford will only bring back bigger debt, then cut backs as we have all seen before.

Get the right manager and we will be fine.

Do we have the right man, thats what we should be asking?

Spot on BH :agree:

Apart from the OF and Hearts we can compete with anyone in the SPL for wages.

It's a big summer for CC, he's managed to clear out the dead wood, but now he has to prove he can bring in the right players in. Results and performances have been poor, but i'll reserve judgement until next season when he's got his own players in and can set the team up his way.

Brizo
02-05-2011, 12:41 PM
We need an injection of excitement pronto or things are just going to fizzle out to mid 80s standards.

:agree:

Saturdays crowd was approaching mid 80s levels and while I appreciate it could be viewed as a meaningless game when ST holders cant be arsed going on what for many is a holiday weekend that should send alarm bells ringing to the Board.

We have champagne infrastructure and pomagne players.
Now that infrastructures complete hopefully some very modest leeway can be given to slightly redress that inbalance. The standard of the SPL is the worst I can remember and our competitors are by and large operating under severe financial constraints. We are operating from a platform of relative strength. I wouldnt want us to jeapordise that position but the standard across the SPL is so poor that its imo worth the gamble to try and attract some better quality "Bosmans" to lift us out of the dross and into a top 6 Europa position.

Another round of journeyman signings and youngsters on loan isnt going to maintain current ST numbers let alone increase them.

c31
02-05-2011, 12:50 PM
:agree:

Another round of journeyman signings and youngsters on loan isnt going to maintain current ST numbers let alone increase them.

Just what we were talking about on Saturday night, in 2007 we were 14 ‘mates’ who all had season tickets and now only three have renewed.

It will take some major investment to get even one or two more to do so as the apathy is staggering, these are guys who have been season tickets holders for at least the last twenty years and any club that loses 80% of their income must be seriously worried.

Judas Iscariot
02-05-2011, 12:53 PM
Hibs always back the manager, we already have manageable debt. Its the managers job whoever is in the hot seat, to get the right players in.

We do pay decent money, certainly more than a few teams above us in the league. More investment than we can actually afford will only bring back bigger debt, then cut backs as we have all seen before.

Get the right manager and we will be fine.

Do we have the right man, thats what we should be asking?


That's more like it :agree:

Ray_
02-05-2011, 12:56 PM
Tell me what that 'genuine ambition' looks like?

Was bringing Riordan back from Celtic or Murray from Norwich, Signing Stokes from Sunderland, Persuading Liam Miller to sign a deal. How about Palsson from Liverpool or Thornhill from Forest.

Everyone is talking about Sproule or O'Connor now, is that genuine ambition? How about if we only signed one of those players?

I've said it on other threads before, you either want to support or you don't. The only question is affordability anything else is just an excuse.

You may have said it before but it doesn't make it anymore right than it was the first time you mention this philosophy.

Hibs do not have a god given right to expect support, thankfully, they are far more aware of that fact than you are, that's why I had a call from somebody from the club last week, selling the online TV service & the other initiatives they use to try & entice custom for the club.

You are being extremely naive if you believe that performance doesn't affect the amount of support a club can attract.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Hibs always back the manager, we already have manageable debt. Its the managers job whoever is in the hot seat, to get the right players in.

We do pay decent money, certainly more than a few teams above us in the league. More investment than we can actually afford will only bring back bigger debt, then cut backs as we have all seen before.

Get the right manager and we will be fine.

Do we have the right man, thats what we should be asking?

And that is down to the Board. How many poor appointments have this Board made....

down the slope
02-05-2011, 01:25 PM
Tell me what that 'genuine ambition' looks like?

Was bringing Riordan back from Celtic or Murray from Norwich, Signing Stokes from Sunderland, Persuading Liam Miller to sign a deal. How about Palsson from Liverpool or Thornhill from Forest.

Everyone is talking about Sproule or O'Connor now, is that genuine ambition? How about if we only signed one of those players?

I've said it on other threads before, you either want to support or you don't. The only question is affordability anything else is just an excuse.

Genuine ambition !, apart from Riorden the only one you could say that seriously improved the team was sold to Celtic !. Your last point is clearly wrong as it seems to suggest anyone who has the means and is not a ST holder is not a true supporter ? ,
if i want to withhold my cash when i see garbage i will, whether that makes you a better supporter than me i could not give monkeys.

Genuine ambition would be for that cheapskate that runs our club to invest in a proven SPL manager for a start , i have said this before on other threads we have a dead hand on the tiller and till he goes we will always suffer season after season.

1875 NO 1
02-05-2011, 01:28 PM
To the current incumbents of the Board, and I hope to God one of them gets passed this to read........

We have a terrific infrastructure in place, to which you have done well to achieve... A great training complex at East Mains, and a terrific Stadium to boot.....

However, NOW is the time to invest in the playing squad, and add some REAL quality...... There is no point in the Stadium being a third full on matchdays, we have to see some quality additions in the Summer or fans will be lost, maybe even for good.....

The fans want to see a successful team on the park, and pay handsomely to do so.....If quality is not added revenue will almost certainly be down.... At AGM in October then the re-arranged AGM after Hughes departed, Fife Hyland (now MD), said he was looking at ways to increase revenue and turnover, well I put it to you Mr Petrie and Mr Hyland, that the only real way of achieving that goal is by putting a watchable product on the park......

Please show us some level of ambition, give us a team to be excited about, if you are not willing to bring in quality, then you do not deserve to be custodians of our wonderful Club...... Time to step up to the plate Gentlemen.

spot on. at the agm petrie said success is at least 4th and cup runs. How many times under him have we achieved this? Petire time to go.

Time we had hibs minded men running the club not accountants.

Under the current budget we should be doing alot better. We need quality not quantity. A wee history lesson in signings:

1991 - Keith Wright
1992 - Darren Jackson
1193 - Jim Leighton, Crunchie and Michael O'Neill

Money was used wisely on quality

Cocaine&Caviar
02-05-2011, 01:34 PM
A wee history lesson in signings:

1991 - Keith Wright
1992 - Darren Jackson
1193 - Jim Leighton, Crunchie and Michael O'Neill

Money was used wisely on quality

There has been some quality brought in though, as well as the dross of AOB, De Graff, Zarabi etc

2008: Sol Bamba, Got international recognition, and went to a WC
2009: Anthony Stokes, 22 Goals in his first season
2009: Liam Miller, no doubting his CV.

Dirkster23
02-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Genuine ambition !, apart from Riorden the only one you could say that seriously improved the team was sold to Celtic !. Your last point is clearly wrong as it seems to suggest anyone who has the means and is not a ST holder is not a true supporter ? ,
if i want to withhold my cash when i see garbage i will, whether that makes you a better supporter than me i could not give monkeys.

Genuine ambition would be for that cheapskate that runs our club to invest in a proven SPL manager for a start , i have said this before on other threads we have a dead hand on the tiller and till he goes we will always suffer season after season.

Like who? Jimmy Calderwood? Mark McGhee? Gus McPherson? Billy Reid? There's a list that would get the fans back in their droves :rolleyes:

NAE NOOKIE
02-05-2011, 01:47 PM
Though nobody wants to see Hibs go into debt by spending silly money on players, it has to be said that we do need someone or something to bring the spark back.

I have hated over the years listening to all these SKY Sports Utd fans in the pub or at work telling me how crap Scottish football is when they have probably never been to a live match, and as a result I have backed the SPL to the hilt.

But I have to say that over the last few years the standard has been awfull. The point being that it is hugely disappointing that Hibs have been unable in that climate to compete with the likes of Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock or Motherwell.

The last time we were even in a semi final was 4 years ago and for a club like us that is unbelievable.

We all raved about Mowbrays team, but the truth is that over the last 10 years Dunfermline, QOTS, Dundee Utd, Falkirk, the yams, Ross County and now Motherwell have made it to the cup final while we have lost games in that competition to the likes of a Ayr Utd, Ross County and Dunfermline. Clubs with less than half the resources we have.

Put alongside our shocking derby record and constant failure to get into Europe it makes for sad viewing if you are a Hibby.

I renewed my ST last saturday by the way, but thats coz I cant help it. A lot of other folk dont think that way and a lot of people on here are right. If the product on the part is rubbish, they will not come. Its up to Hibs to realise that just like any other business it is sometimes good sense to spend money in order to improve the product.

blackpoolhibs
02-05-2011, 02:01 PM
And that is down to the Board. How many poor appointments have this Board made....

Thats not what you were asking though. The board always back the manager, the club is in debt, how much more should we get in debt before it becomes unmanageable?:confused:

matty_f
02-05-2011, 02:06 PM
TBF that's like Sir Tom asking his customers to just buy these chocolate exhausts until I have enough cash to get the real thing, you just can't expect people to shell out on a shoddy product, Hibs aint a charity.

IMO it's down to the manager, with so many out of contract and the wages saved because of it it's down to CC to make sure he gets the right quality, 3 out 1 in :agree:

It's nothing like STF asking people to buy choclate exhausts! It's like STF saying here's the exhausts and here's how much they cost. If you want an exhaust that's really, really good, then it will cost you more. If all you can afford is a basic exhaust then that's what you'll get.

Someone said on another post "you get what you pay for". The players we watch week in/week out are testimony to that. We only get what we pay for.


Unless i'm mistaken our last accounts showed that was roughy the financial position we where in - a manageable level of debt.

There seems to be this belief that Hibs are debt free or virtually debt free but this is simply not the case. There are still overdrafts, mortgages and day to day debts. Don't get me wrong Hibs are better placed financially than most in the SPL but we are still opearting with a burden of debt. Getting into more debt with no guarantee of success and/or European football to balance it off is a route we should be careful of treading.

On saying that i don't totally disagree with the sentiment in your original post, we do need investment on the park to keep fans attending and attract new fans along. I have a feeling we may see a bit of money spent in the summer on young guys with potential sell on value down the line. The Hibs board have built up a sound infastructure that will pay dividends in the coming years. In future years when clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc are spending money building new stadiums, adequate training facilities and whatever else we will be 2 or 3 steps ahead and be able to channel income into the football side of the business.

:agree:


Hibs always back the manager, we already have manageable debt. Its the managers job whoever is in the hot seat, to get the right players in.

We do pay decent money, certainly more than a few teams above us in the league. More investment than we can actually afford will only bring back bigger debt, then cut backs as we have all seen before.

Get the right manager and we will be fine.

Do we have the right man, thats what we should be asking?

Spot on.


And that is down to the Board. How many poor appointments have this Board made....

How many poor appointments does any football club's board make? There are only a handful of genuinely consistent successful teams on the planet. Getting the right man in is not an exact science and no matter how much money you throw at it, it doesn't guarantee success. Real Madrid, with arguably the best manager going, with a huge playing budget, look like they'll get knocked out of the Champions League and fail to win La Liga - have their board made the wrong appointment?

Fife-Hibee
02-05-2011, 02:08 PM
If the board show a sign of genuine ambition then i will renew my ST without that sign then i won't spend another penny at ER thats how low i am after 40+ years

Wot he said :agree:

EVENTUALLY
02-05-2011, 02:17 PM
Sign one player.Sign Alexei Eremenko.

He would single handedly improve the midfield in particular and the team overall.
His ability to keep possession and create chances takes the heat off the defence and makes the forwards job easier. He is great to watch as a spectator and its spectators that need to be encouraged to be fans. Eremenko would add numbers to the gate in my opinion.

Invest the budget in Eremenko. It would'nt be a big gamble in my opinion and would certainly go a long way to instantly improving the team and renew interest in the club for next season.

Sign Alexei Eremenko and things will happen.

blackpoolhibs
02-05-2011, 02:20 PM
Sign one player.Sign Alexei Eremenko.

He would single handedly improve the midfield in particular and the team overall.
His ability to keep possession and create chances takes the heat off the defence and makes the forwards job easier. He is great to watch as a spectator and its spectators that need to be encouraged to be fans. Eremenko would add numbers to the gate in my opinion.

Invest the budget in Eremenko. It would'nt be a big gamble in my opinion and would certainly go a long way to instantly improving the team and renew interest in the club for next season.

Sign Alexei Eremenko and things will happen.

I read he's on 20k a week at his parent club :dunno:. If true i'm sure although not 100% Petrie would have to cut back seriously on the tache wax to make that happen

bingo70
02-05-2011, 02:23 PM
Sign one player.Sign Alexei Eremenko.

He would single handedly improve the midfield in particular and the team overall.
His ability to keep possession and create chances takes the heat off the defence and makes the forwards job easier. He is great to watch as a spectator and its spectators that need to be encouraged to be fans. Eremenko would add numbers to the gate in my opinion.

Invest the budget in Eremenko. It would'nt be a big gamble in my opinion and would certainly go a long way to instantly improving the team and renew interest in the club for next season.

Sign Alexei Eremenko and things will happen.

What if he got injured and we've *****ed out budget on one player so got a squad of about 16 players?

basehibby
02-05-2011, 02:24 PM
:top marks to the OP - we as Hibs fans have displayed the patience of saints over the last decade or so (and the rest!) - watching a home grown team many thought capable of challenging for titles dismantled before our eyes as soon as they started to establish themselves - along with numerous other talents sold off in the years that followed. We have been asked to put our faith in the board's vision of investment in infrastructure and incremental improvement and have done so for the most part with little complaint.

Meanwhile, accross the city, our bitter rivals have continued to invest way beyond their means in their team - and regardless of the shabby state of their stadium and finances, it rankles that they have, as a result, dominated the derby fixtures and enjoyed better league finishes and European results on the whole.

Now, in 2011, the stadium etc is finally complete but is not even half full on matchdays following some of the worst form in the club's history displayed over the last season and a half - and it's hard to argue against the notion that this poor form is as much a result of continually selling off the family silver and replacing it with stock from the bargain basement, as it is a result of poor managerial decisions in the transfer market.

It's time to put a stop to this decline in our on field fortunes and the way to do that IMO is investment from the top - we as a support as well as a team are badly in need of a shot in the arm - something to get us excited - and if that means blowing the budget somewhat then so be it! The alternative will be a continuing decline in attendances and hence revenues as fans continue to get more and more disillusioned and vote with their feet.

Speculate to acumulate is hardly a viable business model in the long term but it has it's time and place - and for Hibs IMO that time is now!

jdships
02-05-2011, 02:26 PM
Managable level of debt........ Other teams do it


Who and with what success ?
Can't compare us with OF on the grounds of "turnover" .
Jambos are a law unto themselves re spending - with what success
D Utd, Motherwell, Aberdeen , Kilmarnock et al are living hand to mouth relying on income from sale of players.
Dundee , Livingston, Gretna tried to "buy a place " in SPL , result administration
Success cannot simply be bought - look at Leeds, Portsmouth etc in England .

Dirkster23 wrote

Apart from the OF and Hearts we can compete with anyone in the SPL for wages.

It's a big summer for CC, he's managed to clear out the dead wood, but now he has to prove he can bring in the right players in. Results and performances have been poor, but i'll reserve judgement until next season when he's got his own players in and can set the team up his way.

That for me is exactly the level where we are able to operate - an astute manager doing his job will being success

:flag:

DarlingtonHibee
02-05-2011, 02:28 PM
Genuine ambition !, apart from Riorden the only one you could say that seriously improved the team was sold to Celtic !. Your last point is clearly wrong as it seems to suggest anyone who has the means and is not a ST holder is not a true supporter ? ,
if i want to withhold my cash when i see garbage i will, whether that makes you a better supporter than me i could not give monkeys.

Genuine ambition would be for that cheapskate that runs our club to invest in a proven SPL manager for a start , i have said this before on other threads we have a dead hand on the tiller and till he goes we will always suffer season after season.

You are entitled to go and see Hibs as and when you wish, that is everyones option - I would like to see them more, but its a fair hike for me and my lad :thumbsup:

Your second point however is mis-guided, the Board have concentrated in finalising the core infrastructure - we have achieved excellent "value for money".

The recently annouced re-org at Board Level, means that we will have two focus areas -

1. The team.

2. Increase revenue to support the team.

It is very easy to come on a board and shout about "invest in the team or go" - life is not that simple, if it is I'm sure the Hibs board would be happy to meet and discuss if people have the answers !!

STF has total faith in Rod Petrie, and I agree, but that is my personal opinion :thumbsup:

Pretty Boy
02-05-2011, 02:34 PM
spot on. at the agm petrie said success is at least 4th and cup runs. How many times under him have we achieved this? Petire time to go.

Time we had hibs minded men running the club not accountants.
Under the current budget we should be doing alot better. We need quality not quantity. A wee history lesson in signings:

1991 - Keith Wright
1992 - Darren Jackson
1193 - Jim Leighton, Crunchie and Michael O'Neill

Money was used wisely on quality

The last time we had a 'Hibs man', Malcolm McPherson, behind the chairmans desk at ER we ended up in the kind of debt that necessitated the frugality of the last few years to keep us afloat.

Kaiser1962
02-05-2011, 03:04 PM
I have to ask,

when Utd let Goodwillie, Bauben, Gomis and maybe even Kenneth go in the summer, do you think they will reinvest that money to keep them at the level they are currently performing at?

Not a chance, as shown with their releasing players like Myrie-Williams, Casinuovo, Sandaza etc in recent times, there is no money in their accounts for it, same as there isnt for us. This is the climate that all our competitors, Utd, Aberdeen, Well etc have to live with in the current climate, with only Hearts & the OF able to invest significantly in terms of transfer fees and wages.

I am being a bit pedantic but I dont think invest is the right word. That would suggest there was an expectation of a profitable return when clearly, in the vast majority of cases, that dosent happen. There are exceptions but not many.

Not heard nothing new here yet. Usual folks saying the usual stuff that. Including me I may add.

1875 NO 1
02-05-2011, 03:19 PM
The last time we had a 'Hibs man', Malcolm McPherson, behind the chairmans desk at ER we ended up in the kind of debt that necessitated the frugality of the last few years to keep us afloat.

simply not true. Petrie is the power at ER not the non exec chairman. Source - ex non exec chairman.

when GJP went to the huns, he spoke out against them with passion. Something Rod has never done during his time at ER

down the slope
02-05-2011, 03:29 PM
You are entitled to go and see Hibs as and when you wish, that is everyones option - I would like to see them more, but its a fair hike for me and my lad :thumbsup:

Your second point however is mis-guided, the Board have concentrated in finalising the core infrastructure - we have achieved excellent "value for money".

The recently annouced re-org at Board Level, means that we will have two focus areas -

1. The team.

2. Increase revenue to support the team.

It is very easy to come on a board and shout about "invest in the team or go" - life is not that simple, if it is I'm sure the Hibs board would be happy to meet and discuss if people have the answers !!

STF has total faith in Rod Petrie, and I agree, but that is my personal opinion :thumbsup:

STF knows diddly squat about football and neither does Petrie ! , just look at the money he has squandered on duff managers alone. The trouble is Petrie has no one to answer to as i'm sure STF will look at the books at the end of the year and think that the club is more or less keeping it's nose clean. This is all very well but we are not selling tyres or exhausts we are selling passion for a football club that neither of them understand. Year on year we are urged to hand over our cash and for what ? , as soon as someone is worth anything they are gone, Petrie just sees players as another commodity and he knows that a significant number will renew their ST' regardless of what is put on the pitch. Well i think this year a lot of supporters will have had enough and they could be in for a shock when they look at the number of renewals. Maybe the board would shift their backsides if their salaries were linked to the clubs league position-see if they want to take that one on board for starters ?.

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 03:51 PM
simply not true. Petrie is the power at ER not the non exec chairman. Source - ex non exec chairman.

when GJP went to the huns, he spoke out against them with passion. Something Rod has never done during his time at ER

Who did this?

Andy74
02-05-2011, 04:05 PM
The mamager and the team underperform again and it's back to the sack the board posts!

Barney McGrew
02-05-2011, 04:11 PM
STF knows diddly squat about football and neither does Petrie !

With Petrie having been involved with Hibs on a daily basis for around 15 years, and been the man in charge for the vast majority of that, I'd wager he knows a lot more about football than a lot of the tracksuit managers/directors on here.

matty_f
02-05-2011, 04:18 PM
With Petrie having been involved with Hibs on a daily basis for around 15 years, and been the man in charge for the vast majority of that, I'd wager he knows a lot more about football than a lot of the tracksuit managers/directors on here.

:top marks

StevieC
02-05-2011, 04:22 PM
Managable level of debt........ Other teams do it

The only people that gain from manageable levels of debt are the banks .. and I'm buggered if I want to see them getting any more of my hard earned cash.

Why not clear the debt and then work within a budget (which I think is what the board are trying to do)?

Of course we could always spend the next 5 seasons putting ourselves into £40m of debt, then start handing over £5m of our annual turnover to whatever bank is pulling the strings .. and then see what's left for player investment?

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 04:28 PM
The only people that gain from manageable levels of debt are the banks .. and I'm buggered if I want to see them getting any more of my hard earned cash.

Why not clear the debt and then work within a budget (which I think is what the board are trying to do)?

Of course we could always spend the next 5 seasons putting ourselves into £40m of debt, then start handing over £5m of our annual turnover to whatever bank is pulling the strings .. and then see what's left for player investment?

No one is asking the Club to go into such debts as you quoted. I am asking for a decent level investment to bring in genuine quality, so we dont have to watch any more seasons like this one.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 04:29 PM
The mamager and the team underperform again and it's back to the sack the board posts!

Rubbish Andy, what I am saying is we have started clearing the decks, now is the time to invest in genuine quality...... Slight difference to your one sided slant....

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 04:34 PM
How many poor appointments does any football club's board make? There are only a handful of genuinely consistent successful teams on the planet. Getting the right man in is not an exact science and no matter how much money you throw at it, it doesn't guarantee success. Real Madrid, with arguably the best manager going, with a huge playing budget, look like they'll get knocked out of the Champions League and fail to win La Liga - have their board made the wrong appointment?

Come on Matty, the managerial appointments are down to the Board and we have had some real duds, the stats are frightening...... No one is asking for money to be thrown at it, or be squandered. We have to rebuild our team with quality, no one I know is happy watching the sub standard football that we have seen this term.

Ray_
02-05-2011, 04:38 PM
The mamager and the team underperform again and it's back to the sack the board posts!

Just like every other business, the buck stops at the top & rightly so, don't forget they have been the common factor throughout multiple managers reigns.

Ray_
02-05-2011, 04:45 PM
[I]Originally Posted by matty_fairnie

Originally Posted by matty_fairnie

How many poor appointments does any football club's board make? There are only a handful of genuinely consistent successful teams on the planet. Getting the right man in is not an exact science and no matter how much money you throw at it, it doesn't guarantee success. Real Madrid, with arguably the best manager going, with a huge playing budget, look like they'll get knocked out of the Champions League and fail to win La Liga - have their board made the wrong appointment?



Come on Matty, the managerial appointments are down to the Board and we have had some real duds, the stats are frightening...... No one is asking for money to be thrown at it, or be squandered. We have to rebuild our team with quality, no one I know is happy watching the sub standard football that we have seen this term.

Nice one Matty :greengrin, you seem to forget that in many people's eyes, Madrid's direct opposition, in both tournaments, are reputedly the best club side ever, or did that slip your mind?:greengrin

Barney McGrew
02-05-2011, 04:50 PM
you seem to forget that in many people's eyes, Madrid's direct opposition, in both tournaments, are reputedly the best club side ever, or did that slip your mind?:greengrin

It won't stop the Real board giving Jose the bullet though - Pellegrini got the highest league points total they'd ever had last season IIRC and still got punted!

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 05:04 PM
STF knows diddly squat about football and neither does Petrie ! , just look at the money he has squandered on duff managers alone. The trouble is Petrie has no one to answer to as i'm sure STF will look at the books at the end of the year and think that the club is more or less keeping it's nose clean. This is all very well but we are not selling tyres or exhausts we are selling passion for a football club that neither of them understand. Year on year we are urged to hand over our cash and for what ? , as soon as someone is worth anything they are gone, Petrie just sees players as another commodity and he knows that a significant number will renew their ST' regardless of what is put on the pitch. Well i think this year a lot of supporters will have had enough and they could be in for a shock when they look at the number of renewals. Maybe the board would shift their backsides if their salaries were linked to the clubs league position-see if they want to take that one on board for starters ?.

What utter utter drivel. Drivel at a level of drivelness seldom seen even on here.

new malkyhib
02-05-2011, 05:05 PM
Nobody in their right mind is looking for Messi quality. Nobody in their right mind is suggesting a return to McLeish-esque spending...

We are all saying, we need better than what we have gotten before. If that's down to all the managers, then fair play but its hard to believe at least some of the reason why we got some utter sheite on the park was down to the budget.

So, we'll see come Summer. This season is (another) write off. Let it be noted that if we have yet (another) "transitional" season where everyone makes excuse after excuse for the; manager/board/players/ground/facilities/debt/etc, REGARDLESS of whom or what gets the blame, the fact is season tickets and walk-ups will fall still more.

We took the piss somewhat in expecting a real return to form a couple of seasons ago but NOW, there is no excuse. We've got all the things in place everyone seemed to want; finished stadium, training complex, big names have been punted and we've got nothing else TO spend on save for the team.

No more pish. No more excuses. No more rubbish. NOW, is the time to put every available resource into the team on the pitch or else, as baldyfoghorn and smurf says, we're ****ed. We'll go into a negative circle of decline and end up (ironically) NOT covering our outgoings = debt.

Stick a good team on the pitch, give it yer best and nobody will ask for more. lets invest no more in "infrastructure" as with the best will in the world, a fine infrastructure never scored a frickin goal in it's life, bolted doon the wing or stopped shots on the line. A team, of good players, motivated players, players who want to be here and most importantly, are GOOD enough, will.

ENDOF

Bang-on. I've renewed for next season - basically because that's what I do on a Saturday, and it also gets my old man out the house - it's certainly not because of the dross i've been watching that's for sure.

Having removed possibly the three highest earners from the wage bill in Bamba, Stokes & Zemamma, and in the process trousered some £1.6m in transfer fees, there HAS to be some leeway given in bringing in a decent signing or two - starting with some of the better out-of-contract players at Dun Utd and M'well would be good.

What would also be desirable would be if they were signed post-haste at the first available opportunity instead of the usual "we'll make an announcement when we've something to say" or "it's hard to sign players at this time of year" etc, which are two of the mantras that this Board continually trot out time and again.

I wouldn't hold my breath for any of the above happening though - there's no winning mentality at any sphere of the club and it's sad to see.

I do like the notion of what someone else suggested in this thread though, that Director's remuneration is linked to team performance, derby record, cup runs, etc. - we'd have saved a rigth few quid if that had been in place during the last four years.

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 05:07 PM
Just like every other business, the buck stops at the top & rightly so, don't forget they have been the common factor throughout multiple managers reigns.

That could be levelled at every club in Scotland. Until someone buys them out we will never know.

There will be queue forming after this thread. :rolleyes:

new malkyhib
02-05-2011, 05:09 PM
What utter utter drivel. Drivel at a level of drivelness seldom seen even on here.

All in your humble opinion, of course.

Mikey
02-05-2011, 05:09 PM
Do we have to go through this yet again? It was done to death as recently as January.

We all know the club won't spend money they don't have.

:zzzzz!:

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 05:11 PM
No one is asking the Club to go into such debts as you quoted. I am asking for a decent level investment to bring in genuine quality, so we dont have to watch any more seasons like this one.

Which is how much exactly? What would you think is a decent level? I will not use the word "invest" as another poster pointed out its not an investment as such. More of a gamble I would say.

new malkyhib
02-05-2011, 05:13 PM
Do we have to go through this yet again? It was done to death as recently as January.

We all know the club won't spend money they don't have.

:zzzzz!:

You're right, let's just ignore a woeful derby record, another early exit in the cup to lower league team and a team with not of an ounce of spirit and fight amongst them. Everything fine as it is, Mikey.

If it wasn't for conflicting opinions you wouldn't have a fans' forum, would you?

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 05:13 PM
All in your humble opinion, of course.

Nope. I think the facts speak for themselves.

Petrie knows quite a bit about football.

None of the players that he refers to wanted to stay.

ergo its utter drivel. :greengrin

StevieC
02-05-2011, 05:17 PM
No one is asking the Club to go into such debts as you quoted. I am asking for a decent level investment to bring in genuine quality, so we dont have to watch any more seasons like this one.

The amount quoted was obviously a tongue in cheek dig at our neighbours.

Why go into any debt at all? Debt is nothing more than a short term fix with long term repurcussions.

As many have stated on here, we are in as good a position, if not better, to provide as good a playing staff as is available (and within the budget) as other teams in the league (OF excluded).

down the slope
02-05-2011, 05:35 PM
What utter utter drivel. Drivel at a level of drivelness seldom seen even on here.

Sorry Rod !.

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 05:49 PM
Sorry Rod !.


Oh! Ma sides! :faf:

Nearly as funny as your other post.

new malkyhib
02-05-2011, 05:56 PM
Oh! Ma sides! :faf:

Nearly as funny as your other post.

and on a par with yours.

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 06:05 PM
and on a par with yours.

Not at all. Mines was much better.

DarlingtonHibee
02-05-2011, 06:12 PM
STF knows diddly squat about football and neither does Petrie ! , just look at the money he has squandered on duff managers alone. The trouble is Petrie has no one to answer to as i'm sure STF will look at the books at the end of the year and think that the club is more or less keeping it's nose clean. This is all very well but we are not selling tyres or exhausts we are selling passion for a football club that neither of them understand. Year on year we are urged to hand over our cash and for what ? , as soon as someone is worth anything they are gone, Petrie just sees players as another commodity and he knows that a significant number will renew their ST' regardless of what is put on the pitch. Well i think this year a lot of supporters will have had enough and they could be in for a shock when they look at the number of renewals. Maybe the board would shift their backsides if their salaries were linked to the clubs league position-see if they want to take that one on board for starters ?.

STF and Rod are not football experts - correct - that is why we employ a Manager.

STF - not going to go over old ground again, but he has done more for this club than anyone else in out history.

Rod Petrie - when Rod took the job he was earning more in his previous role.

You need to start thinking about Hibs like a family budget.

Income - £xxxxx

Outgoings £yyyy

If y is bigger than x, you are in debt - banks start to get nervous, you could lose your asset's etc...

Do you want us to be like - Heatrs, Rangers, Motherwell, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc - all of whom are struggling financially.

Of cours it would not happen at Hibs, because you would expect STF to sort out the mess - yet again- why should he keep bailing us out ??

As alway's just my personal opinion :thumbsup:

Albion Hibs
02-05-2011, 06:26 PM
Ten pages. :agree:

I agree with the sentiments of the o.p., but I would add that if we are calling on the board to invest then we as a support have to give them the means to do it, through season ticket purchases etc.

The board should (and are) be looking for other revenue streams but the fundamental principles of the club are that season ticket money goes directly on the team on the pitch.

If we want genuine quality players we need to dip into our pockets once more and help fund it.

I we do that and the board fail to back cc, then they should be held accountable. They can't, however, spend money that isn't there.

I could not agree more with the above. I am sick of reading on here about how the board need to do this, Sir Tom needs to do that, the players need to do this. It is becoming really boring, if we want a better quality of player and team, then we need a better quality of fan, a fan that will turn up regardless, not sit there and decided to go when we are playing a bigger team, or see if we are going to sign anybody before buying a ST or ticket on matchday. Then deciding to call themselves a hibs fan and sit at home watching a random english team on sky sports (probably moaning at the same time about how tv is killing the game).

Our board have managed the club to provide training facilities, a sound financial structure, and a great stadium in a very short space of time. Hands in pockets or no moaning.

The quality of player on the pitch is a refection of the huge swing in people being or not being a hibs fan.

ancient hibee
02-05-2011, 06:38 PM
I totally agree with the OP.

Whilst I completely understand the people who are saying that in order to afford to improve the squad, the club needs the fans to invest in season tickets, the club cannot expect the fans to blindly follow the club through thin or thinner.

Let's be honest, bar a couple of good runs including the start of last season and also in season 07/08, we have been getting worse and worse since our League Cup win four years ago. Our final league placing last season was good but our run in the final half of last season was absolutely awful and that continued into this season.

Not everyone who has been at Easter Road in the past few years is someone who will give unconditional support to the club. A lot of people will gladly come out to see Hibs but they're not going to pay £400 a year when they're seeing very few signs of any progress.

I realise that the club has debt that it has to manage and I would not wish to see the club return to the days of about 10 years ago when we were about £20 million in debt, but I refuse to accept that the board is unable to release enough funds to buy three or four high profile signings. If we do that and the club starts next season well then it won't be long before Easter Road starts filling up and then they will get their money back.

I am someone who will go to Easter Road no matter what, I would go and watch Hibs in the third division but this past year or so has really tested my patience with Hibs, this season alone has been one of the most monotonous since I started going to games in the early 90's.

I will be going back next season but, to be perfectly honest, I really have absolutely no appetite for another season like this one.
These funds that the board should release-where are they exactly-under lock and key somewhere?Surely you don't think that the club has cash that they are refusing to spend?

Hermit Crab
02-05-2011, 06:39 PM
Until the board do invest properly in the team without limiting themselves to a ridiculous budget then Hibs will be known as sleeping giants as we have been known for years. I for one am fed up being in the shadow of Hearts!

We have the stadium,training complex facilities etc to attract decent players, the only thing holding us back IMO is the boards unwillingness to pay decent wages to bring decent players to ER

Until the boards attitude changes ie loosen the purse strings and live a little we are going to have a very good half empty stadium at every home game and mediocre journeymen producing Sunday amatuer style football on the pitch,as seen on Saturday against St J and against many other teams this season. Its a case of get used to it untill the board come out of their dream world and realise they are actually chasing fans away from the game and not attracting them which is what the board should be doing.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 06:44 PM
Do we have to go through this yet again? It was done to death as recently as January.

We all know the club won't spend money they don't have.

:zzzzz!:

Not quite sure why the need for the sleeping icon, but it is a serious question that needed raising, or are you happy to watch mediocrity?

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Which is how much exactly? What would you think is a decent level? I will not use the word "invest" as another poster pointed out its not an investment as such. More of a gamble I would say.

It would be more of a gamble not to sign quality and watch the crowds dwindle away to nowt......

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 06:48 PM
I could not agree more with the above. I am sick of reading on here about how the board need to do this, Sir Tom needs to do that, the players need to do this. It is becoming really boring, if we want a better quality of player and team, then we need a better quality of fan, a fan that will turn up regardless, not sit there and decided to go when we are playing a bigger team, or see if we are going to sign anybody before buying a ST or ticket on matchday. Then deciding to call themselves a hibs fan and sit at home watching a random english team on sky sports (probably moaning at the same time about how tv is killing the game).

Our board have managed the club to provide training facilities, a sound financial structure, and a great stadium in a very short space of time. Hands in pockets or no moaning.

The quality of player on the pitch is a refection of the huge swing in people being or not being a hibs fan.

It was I who started this thread, and I turn up every match home and away regardless, but I am seriously worried as to where we are heading as a team, if quality is not added, this season has been totally awful to watch.........

ancient hibee
02-05-2011, 06:48 PM
Until the board do invest properly in the team without limiting themselves to a ridiculous budget then Hibs will be known as sleeping giants as we have been known for years. I for one am fed up being in the shadow of Hearts!

We have the stadium,training complex facilities etc to attract decent players, the only thing holding us back IMO is the boards unwillingness to pay decent wages to bring decent players to ER

Until the boards attitude changes ie loosen the purse strings and live a little we are going to have a very good half empty stadium at every home game and mediocre journeymen producing Sunday amatuer style football on the pitch,as seen on Saturday against St J and against many other teams this season. Its a case of get used to it untill the board come out of their dream world and realise they are actually chasing fans away from the game.
The club can only spend the money that comes in-there is absolutely no way any bank is going to lend them money to sign players and pay wages-there is nothing in the purse so there is no point in loosening the strings.As always what comes in from seasons will be spent on the team.

DarlingtonHibee
02-05-2011, 06:49 PM
Until the board do invest properly in the team without limiting themselves to a ridiculous budget then Hibs will be known as sleeping giants as we have been known for years. I for one am fed up being in the shadow of Hearts!

We have the stadium,training complex facilities etc to attract decent players, the only thing holding us back IMO is the boards unwillingness to pay decent wages to bring decent players to ER

Until the boards attitude changes ie loosen the purse strings and live a little we are going to have a very good half empty stadium at every home game and mediocre journeymen producing Sunday amatuer style football on the pitch,as seen on Saturday against St J and against many other teams this season. Its a case of get used to it untill the board come out of their dream world and realise they are actually chasing fans away from the game.

HC

Who do you think gave us the stadium - the only UEFA complaint ground outside Glasgow ?

Who do you think provided the finance for the training ground ?

As per my previous post outgoings must not excede income - simple economics.:rolleyes:

Hermit Crab
02-05-2011, 06:56 PM
The club can only spend the money that comes in-there is absolutely no way any bank is going to lend them money to sign players and pay wages-there is nothing in the purse so there is no point in loosening the strings.As always what comes in from seasons will be spent on the team.


Its a downward spiral then and will be for years. Next seasons renewals alone is not going to get us decent players on the pitch.

ancient hibee
02-05-2011, 06:57 PM
Its a downward spiral then and will be for years. Next seasons renewals alone is not going to get us decent players on the pitch.


Except that there are going to be a lot of players looking for a job and wages throughout our level will be revised downwards so it's not all doom and gloom.

Kaiser1962
02-05-2011, 06:59 PM
It would be more of a gamble not to sign quality and watch the crowds dwindle away to nowt......

So who decides just who the money, what limited funds we do have, gets spent on? Collins (and Craig's) marque signings failed spectacularly. Yogi's did ok with Stokes, and to a degree Miller (although he's out of contract in the summer so if he walks is that an "investment"?) although Yogi's BIG signings last summer fared very badly.

So do we gamble our future on one or two players who may, or may not, make it. If the do make it will we then slag the board when said players want to leave and increase their wages ten times? Or do we "lure" players here on more money than we can afford in the hope that things go well? If they go badly who's left with the tab.

If by spending, say, £1m? £2m? more? we could guarantee making profit then fine.

Hermit Crab
02-05-2011, 07:00 PM
HC

Who do you think gave us the stadium - the only UEFA complaint ground outside Glasgow ?

Who do you think provided the finance for the training ground ?

As per my previous post outgoings must not excede income - simple economics.:rolleyes:



It was the sale of players that got us these things not season ticket renewals or sales from the club shop.

Yes the only uefa complient ground outside Glasgow. Big deal because the way were are going without investment in the team the only uefa complient ground outside Glasgow wont see a uefa cup game because the team that plays infront of it is pash :rolleyes:

Kaiser1962
02-05-2011, 07:00 PM
Except that there are going to be a lot of players looking for a job and wages throughout our level will be revised downwards so it's not all doom and gloom.

I agree and I think we're in as good as a position as any to pick up some of those.

Albion Hibs
02-05-2011, 07:01 PM
It was I who started this thread, and I turn up every match home and away regardless, but I am seriously worried as to where we are heading as a team, if quality is not added, this season has been totally awful to watch.........

I was not commenting on who started the thread or your attendance. I am just pointing out that a large percentage of our fans expect so much and consider giving so little. Should Rod and the rest of the board be coming round to wipe there a£se as well?!

My simple message is put up or shut up - the board have done more than plenty for the club and fans, I bet you there are so many out there that are happy to criticise but only willing to pay to go and watch hearts or rangers etc.

I would be willing to put money on it that if the fans walked through the door, handed over there money, the board would do the same in terms of investment on the pitch.

new malkyhib
02-05-2011, 07:01 PM
Not at all. Mines was much better.

You need an apostrophe in there; it's "mine's".

ancient hibee
02-05-2011, 07:05 PM
You need an apostrophe in there; it's "mine's".
No you just need the singular "mine".The apostrophe could be used if was is deleted.

A Japanese learning English committed suicide when he saw a poster"play pronounced success".

Removed
02-05-2011, 07:07 PM
I was not commenting on who started the thread or your attendance. I am just pointing out that a large percentage of our fans expect so much and consider giving so little. Should Rod and the rest of the board be coming round to wipe there a£se as well?!

My simple message is put up or shut up - the board have done more than plenty for the club and fans, I bet you there are so many out there that are happy to criticise but only willing to pay to go and watch hearts or rangers etc.

I would be willing to put money on it that if the fans walked through the door, handed over there money, the board would do the same in terms of investment on the pitch.

Baldy Foghorn does put up. There are plenty others too but not enough. So should BF have had a pop at stayaway fans? All that would happen is accusations of being an uber fan and over the top posts towards him.

So as others have said its a chicken and egg situation but imo it is up to the board to get us in a place where supporters want to come and support the team and get the stadium filled to generate the funds to improve the squad.

new malkyhib
02-05-2011, 07:09 PM
So who decides just who the money, what limited funds we do have, gets spent on? Collins (and Craig's) marque signings failed spectacularly. Yogi's did ok with Stokes, and to a degree Miller (although he's out of contract in the summer so if he walks is that an "investment"?) although Yogi's BIG signings last summer fared very badly.

So do we gamble our future on one or two players who may, or may not, make it. If the do make it will we then slag the board when said players want to leave and increase their wages ten times? Or do we "lure" players here on more money than we can afford in the hope that things go well? If they go badly who's left with the tab.

If by spending, say, £1m? £2m? more? we could guarantee making profit then fine.

Or do you try and build a team to fill a stadium, and in doing that bring in a better class of players, breed a wee bit of success and try and establish a base to build from that and in turn attract better players - an "upward spiral" maybe?

Or do you sell anything that moves, replace it with journeyman and breed a culture of mediocrity?

Oh, and one related point with soundbites or catchphrases: If this Board are looking to increase revenue, they could do a lot worse than copyrght the words "it's a transitional season" - that way every time it's uttered around here they could charge royalties and make a small fortune.

No winning mentality exists at Easter Road - and that'll never change so long as this present Board have anything to do with it.

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 07:17 PM
You need an apostrophe in there; it's "mine's".


No you just need the singular "mine".The apostrophe could be used if was is deleted.

A Japanese learning English committed suicide when he saw a poster"play pronounced success".

Thankyou Gentlemen. As always the educational qualities of this board shine through. I have learned more about the correct use of an apostrophe on here in the last two months that in 13 years of school and six at university. :greengrin

The Falcon
02-05-2011, 07:21 PM
Or do you try and build a team to fill a stadium, and in doing that bring in a better class of players, breed a wee bit of success and try and establish a base to build from that and in turn attract better players - an "upward spiral" maybe?

Or do you sell anything that moves, replace it with journeyman and breed a culture of mediocrity?

Oh, and one related point with soundbites or catchphrases: If this Board are looking to increase revenue, they could do a lot worse than copyrght the words "it's a transitional season" - that way every time it's uttered around here they could charge royalties.

No winning mentality exists at Easter Road - and that'll never change so long as this present Board have anything to do with it.

I think the secret is striking a balance between investment and gambling. Thats the difficult bit.

"sell anything that moves" is a charge often levelled at the club, Petrie in particular. How many players (I will assume the usual ones you are on about) begged to stay? How many went in the papers claiming to have been sold against their will by Big Bad Hibs when all they wanted to do was stay at ER?

Albion Hibs
02-05-2011, 07:22 PM
Baldy Foghorn does put up. There are plenty others too but not enough. So should BF have had a pop at stayaway fans? All that would happen is accusations of being an uber fan and over the top posts towards him.

So as others have said its a chicken and egg situation but imo it is up to the board to get us in a place where supporters want to come and support the team and get the stadium filled to generate the funds to improve the squad.

It is not really chicken and egg is it? As far as I am aware the board committ to invest money from season ticket sales - the sale of season tickets is launched well in advance of the season in question. On this basis it is simple, the board make a committment to spend what the fans give. To imply the process is circular is not the case, it is clearly liner.

At the end of the day if you are a fan of the club you turn up, this is not an uber fan debate, or a chicken and egg debate, it is a question of fans who consistantly wanting more - it is the 'Oliver/Please Sir Can I have More' mentality. Your request for the board to get us somewhere so the 'fans' come and watch is asking the club to take a massive risk that even with investment people will turn up, there will always be an excuse.

As a season ticket holder I dont want the club to take a financial risk, possibly sending us into a similar situation to other clubs in the league, for the sake of trying to attract fans. I want hibs fans to be a£sed about supporting the club, turn up pay there money and take the credit for putting the club up there, not turn up when we are winning, hunting glory and then asking for more again.

Removed
02-05-2011, 07:32 PM
It is not really chicken and egg is it? As far as I am aware the board committ to invest money from season ticket sales - the sale of season tickets is launched well in advance of the season in question. On this basis it is simple, the board make a committment to spend what the fans give. To imply the process is circular is not the case, it is clearly liner.

At the end of the day if you are a fan of the club you turn up, this is not an uber fan debate, or a chicken and egg debate, it is a question of fans who consistantly wanting more - it is the 'Oliver/Please Sir Can I have More' mentality. Your request for the board to get us somewhere so the 'fans' come and watch is asking the club to take a massive risk that even with investment people will turn up, there will always be an excuse.

As a season ticket holder I dont want the club to take a financial risk, possibly sending us into a similar situation to other clubs in the league, for the sake of trying to attract fans. I want hibs fans to be a£sed about supporting the club, turn up pay there money and take the credit for putting the club up there, not turn up when we are winning, hunting glory and then asking for more again.

Imo it is circular. There are only so many folk who will renew st's no matter what. Even some hardcore have got to the stage where they have had enough. Fife Hyland told me he thinks we can fill the stadium. Time for him to back that up with some action.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 07:36 PM
Imo it is circular. There are only so many folk who will renew st's no matter what. Even some hardcore have got to the stage where they have had enough. Fife Hyland told me he thinks we can fill the stadium. Time for him to back that up with some action.

A pretty bold statement for a Director to make....Lets hope they have something up their sleeves

Removed
02-05-2011, 07:38 PM
A pretty bold statement for a Director to make....Lets hope they have something up their sleeves

He said it at the fans forum about league reconstruction a few months ago. I hope so too.

The marketing team did a great job with green day, I'm sure they will have some more innovative ideas.

Albion Hibs
02-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Imo it is circular. There are only so many folk who will renew st's no matter what. Even some hardcore have got to the stage where they have had enough. Fife Hyland told me he thinks we can fill the stadium. Time for him to back that up with some action.


A pretty bold statement for a Director to make....Lets hope they have something up their sleeves

Either that or unless he was intending to clone himself he is asking the fans to take some resposibility.

Put it this was as a season ticket holder I would not want the club to take a financial punt on investing more than we can necessarily afford to attract these fans, what if we have a good season and the numbers dont turn up? and then as fans who attend anyway we have to watch the team being sold and poor equivilents brought in and the standard drop for 3 or 4 years to pay off an experiment - is that what you want?

Brizo
02-05-2011, 07:59 PM
Or do you try and build a team to fill a stadium, and in doing that bring in a better class of players, breed a wee bit of success and try and establish a base to build from that and in turn attract better players - an "upward spiral" maybe?

Or do you sell anything that moves, replace it with journeyman and breed a culture of mediocrity?

:agree:

When a company build a new cinema / gym / hotel / supermarket / club / pub etc they do their utmost to fill that venue offering all sorts of introductory offers and attractions. Our stadium like these is an entertainment venue. When the FF stand was opened there seemed to be a real buzz about the place which I didnt see with the opening of the new East. There was the opportunity for some creative pricing and marketing to fill the new East but I didnt see get any sense of that. Its left us with an emperors new clothes situation where the stadium looks great from the outside but walk in through the doors and its half empty or in saturdays case two thirds empty.

The "id go to watch them on Leith Links" mentality will always ensure a hardcore of say 5000 to 7000 fans but isnt going to attract the numbers who want to be entertained , who want value for money and who wont sit through the turgid rubbish on display out of commendable blind loyalty. And its that group who need to be encouraged into the ground.

Many on here seem happy with financial prudence and the status quo. But once ST holders give up their tickets and the Hibs habit / addiction its extremely difficult to get them back. It took a long time to build up the ST fanbase but will take little time to eriode it back down to a hardcore few thousand.

Its a gamble to loosen the purse strings but its equally a gamble to plough the current financial furrow which could leave a hardcore of 7000 fans rattling about in a two thirds empty stadium watching mid table mediocrity.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:00 PM
He said it at the fans forum about league reconstruction a few months ago. I hope so too.

The marketing team did a great job with green day, I'm sure they will have some more innovative ideas.

Maybe so Billy, but filling the stadium seems a tad unrealistic in my opinion:confused:

matty_f
02-05-2011, 08:02 PM
Imo it is circular. There are only so many folk who will renew st's no matter what. Even some hardcore have got to the stage where they have had enough. Fife Hyland told me he thinks we can fill the stadium. Time for him to back that up with some action.

I actually agree with Albion here, the board back the manager with the funds that come in through season ticket sales. They promise that the manager will get that money for players, it's a commitment that they make to the support.

To get the Millers and Stokes etc, we need people to put up the money to support the cost. It's simple economics. We have debt. Without player sales we'd have hit a loss the last couple of years IIRC, so the budget is being stretched as much as possible.

I know you're a home and away fan, as is Baldy Foghorn and many more on this forum. I buy a season ticket and get other stuff from the club because I know if Hibs fans don't do it, nobody else will.

I've said before that the commercial and other income avenues for a club like Hibs are minimal. We don't have mass marketing appeal, we don't have a nationwide fanbase. The club have, and will always have, a limited population from which to draw income. That's the reality.

If we want a team to challenge at the top end of the table, we need to be buying up significantly more season tickets than we do currently.

Yes, I agree that some people will only buy a season ticket if the product on the pitch is right, but these are exactly the fans that need to decide whether or not they're going to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

ScottB
02-05-2011, 08:02 PM
Oh good, it's been awhile since we had one of these threads...

Basically I'll sum my feelings on the issue up with one thing, where does the money to invest come from exactly?

We don't make a profit before player sales, we've likely lost a fortune this year. So where does all this cash to invest in 'quality' (and don't even get me started on the idea that paying more always equals better players, step forward Maka and O'Brien et all) come from, short of plunging ourselves deeper into the red?

And even if we do take a punt, when we have been winning games and playing great football we never sell out every week, never mind the to the new capacity.


Personally I think it needs to happen long term, not a sudden spending splurge.

matty_f
02-05-2011, 08:07 PM
Come on Matty, the managerial appointments are down to the Board and we have had some real duds, the stats are frightening...... No one is asking for money to be thrown at it, or be squandered. We have to rebuild our team with quality, no one I know is happy watching the sub standard football that we have seen this term.

I'm not happy with the standard either, Baldy, but other than Rangers (and even then it's discounting Polly Gwen), which team in Scotland have been consistently successful with their managerial appointments?


[I]Originally Posted by matty_fairnie

Originally Posted by matty_fairnie

How many poor appointments does any football club's board make? There are only a handful of genuinely consistent successful teams on the planet. Getting the right man in is not an exact science and no matter how much money you throw at it, it doesn't guarantee success. Real Madrid, with arguably the best manager going, with a huge playing budget, look like they'll get knocked out of the Champions League and fail to win La Liga - have their board made the wrong appointment?




Nice one Matty :greengrin, you seem to forget that in many people's eyes, Madrid's direct opposition, in both tournaments, are reputedly the best club side ever, or did that slip your mind?:greengrin

I know fine well who Madrid's opposition are, however The Special One was brought in to beat them. He's not done it (other than in the Copa Del Ray). The big prizes of the CL and La Liga are heading Barca's way once again. Does that mean that the Madrid board made the wrong appointment?

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:10 PM
Either that or unless he was intending to clone himself he is asking the fans to take some resposibility.

Put it this was as a season ticket holder I would not want the club to take a financial punt on investing more than we can necessarily afford to attract these fans, what if we have a good season and the numbers dont turn up? and then as fans who attend anyway we have to watch the team being sold and poor equivilents brought in and the standard drop for 3 or 4 years to pay off an experiment - is that what you want?

What I want is a team on the park that can challenge the old firm and secure regular European football..... Get it right and the financial rewards would follow...Needs to be some middle ground obviously, but we all want to see a better product surely?

Andy74
02-05-2011, 08:14 PM
You may have said it before but it doesn't make it anymore right than it was the first time you mention this philosophy.

Hibs do not have a god given right to expect support, thankfully, they are far more aware of that fact than you are, that's why I had a call from somebody from the club last week, selling the online TV service & the other initiatives they use to try & entice custom for the club.

You are being extremely naive if you believe that performance doesn't affect the amount of support a club can attract.

Where do you go to between Board threads? Never seem to notice you at other times.

matty_f
02-05-2011, 08:15 PM
What I want is a team on the park that can challenge the old firm and secure regular European football..... Get it right and the financial rewards would follow...Needs to be some middle ground obviously, but we all want to see a better product surely?

I think all of us would say we want a better product on the park, but how many want it enough to dip into their own pockets to make it happen? That's the crucial point about it all. I know you do, I do, and a good few others do but it's not enough.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:15 PM
Oh good, it's been awhile since we had one of these threads...

Basically I'll sum my feelings on the issue up with one thing, where does the money to invest come from exactly?

We don't make a profit before player sales, we've likely lost a fortune this year. So where does all this cash to invest in 'quality' (and don't even get me started on the idea that paying more always equals better players, step forward Maka and O'Brien et all) come from, short of plunging ourselves deeper into the red?

And even if we do take a punt, when we have been winning games and playing great football we never sell out every week, never mind the to the new capacity.


Personally I think it needs to happen long term, not a sudden spending splurge.

Sensible response but without spending we could be a bottom six club next season and so on, thus losing further monies from league positions and gate receipts.... Wish we could spend a bit more than our norm, and start the rebuilding process thereafter

Removed
02-05-2011, 08:16 PM
I actually agree with Albion here, the board back the manager with the funds that come in through season ticket sales. They promise that the manager will get that money for players, it's a commitment that they make to the support.

To get the Millers and Stokes etc, we need people to put up the money to support the cost. It's simple economics. We have debt. Without player sales we'd have hit a loss the last couple of years IIRC, so the budget is being stretched as much as possible.

I know you're a home and away fan, as is Baldy Foghorn and many more on this forum. I buy a season ticket and get other stuff from the club because I know if Hibs fans don't do it, nobody else will.

I've said before that the commercial and other income avenues for a club like Hibs are minimal. We don't have mass marketing appeal, we don't have a nationwide fanbase. The club have, and will always have, a limited population from which to draw income. That's the reality.

If we want a team to challenge at the top end of the table, we need to be buying up significantly more season tickets than we do currently.

Yes, I agree that some people will only buy a season ticket if the product on the pitch is right, but these are exactly the fans that need to decide whether or not they're going to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

New marketing campaign then. Forget all the nice Hibs family stuff and give it to them with both barrels

"Are you part of the problem or part of the solution".

"Do you really want to Hibs to win the Scottish Cup before you die? Buy a season ticket and put your money where your mouth is"

:dunno:

Mibbe good that I don't work in marketing :greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:18 PM
I think all of us would say we want a better product on the park, but how many want it enough to dip into their own pockets to make it happen? That's the crucial point about it all. I know you do, I do, and a good few others do but it's not enough.

This is what frustrates me the most about it all Matty, fans have stopped going because the product on offer has been poor, but without signings of quality these same fans might never return....Catch 22 isnt it

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:19 PM
New marketing campaign then. Forget all the nice Hibs family stuff and give it to them with both barrels

"Are you part of the problem or part of the solution".

"Do you really want to Hibs to win the Scottish Cup before you die? Buy a season ticket and put your money where your mouth is"

:dunno:

Mibbe good that I don't work in marketing :greengrin

This should be the new marketing slogan......Buy now or forever watch mediocrity....

matty_f
02-05-2011, 08:21 PM
New marketing campaign then. Forget all the nice Hibs family stuff and give it to them with both barrels

"Are you part of the problem or part of the solution".

"Do you really want to Hibs to win the Scottish Cup before you die? Buy a season ticket and put your money where your mouth is"

:dunno:

Mibbe good that I don't work in marketing :greengrin

If it was me in charge there I'd do something like that, too, to be honest. The problem is, the Board have said time and again that the ST money goes on the team, but in my opinion I would have no problem at all with them laying down the gauntlet to the support.

The board should consider promising a specific value of spend on the team if a specific volume of season ticket (full price) sales are reached. Make it black and white and make it a very high profile commitment. I know it throws up some issues with the board not wanting other clubs to know what we've got to spend, but that's an issue they'd need to work around.

Removed
02-05-2011, 08:21 PM
This is what frustrates me the most about it all Matty, fans have stopped going because the product on offer has been poor, but without signings of quality these same fans might never return....Catch 22 isnt it

:agree:

Is catch 22 the same as chicken and egg :greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:23 PM
:agree:

Is catch 22 the same as chicken and egg :greengrin

similar I think:wink:

matty_f
02-05-2011, 08:26 PM
This is what frustrates me the most about it all Matty, fans have stopped going because the product on offer has been poor, but without signings of quality these same fans might never return....Catch 22 isnt it

Definitely.:agree: There have been references made, though, to investments that are beyond modest on our terms - the likes of Maka, AOB, De Graaf, Hart, Stokes, Miller, etc etc - the poor product hasn't only been down to a lack of spend, it's been down to poor signings, inconsistent managerial performance, the lack of any kind of consistency with a manager (we're on how many managers in how many years now??). We've never had a chance to build a team without it being dismantled and rebuilt within 18 months or so because managers have either been taken from us (Mowbray) or have walked/been pushed.

We need some consistency in the manager's position and allow for a team to be built before we can expect to be anything other than a mediocre side.

Albion Hibs
02-05-2011, 08:27 PM
What I want is a team on the park that can challenge the old firm and secure regular European football..... Get it right and the financial rewards would follow...Needs to be some middle ground obviously, but we all want to see a better product surely?

We do, and we know how to get it, we need to take responsibility. If we sell 16,000 season tickets this year I have no doubt we would make a huge investment on the pitch. But at times I actually feel sory for the board, they work day in day out and have built a stadium for the club we have to be proud of. I have read posts on here recently about folk turning down tickets to watch Sky sports - if that is the mentality we are never going to get were so many of us want to be.


New marketing campaign then. Forget all the nice Hibs family stuff and give it to them with both barrels

"Are you part of the problem or part of the solution".

"Do you really want to Hibs to win the Scottish Cup before you die? Buy a season ticket and put your money where your mouth is"

:dunno:

Mibbe good that I don't work in marketing :greengrin

I will disagree with you again, the one in bold is my favourite - think about how much money we would have taken off the fans over the past hundred years if it had worked.

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 08:32 PM
Definitely.:agree: There have been references made, though, to investments that are beyond modest on our terms - the likes of Maka, AOB, De Graaf, Hart, Stokes, Miller, etc etc - the poor product hasn't only been down to a lack of spend, it's been down to poor signings, inconsistent managerial performance, the lack of any kind of consistency with a manager (we're on how many managers in how many years now??). We've never had a chance to build a team without it being dismantled and rebuilt within 18 months or so because managers have either been taken from us (Mowbray) or have walked/been pushed.

We need some consistency in the manager's position and allow for a team to be built before we can expect to be anything other than a mediocre side.

:agree:however we cannot continually be in transition

Removed
02-05-2011, 08:39 PM
I will disagree with you again, the one in bold is my favourite - think about how much money we would have taken off the fans over the past hundred years if it had worked.

Sorry but you have lost me with that response :confused:

matty_f
02-05-2011, 08:44 PM
:agree:however we cannot continually be in transition

Well, hopefully CC is good enough to stick around for a few years and let's see where he takes us!:pray:

ScottB
02-05-2011, 08:45 PM
Sensible response but without spending we could be a bottom six club next season and so on, thus losing further monies from league positions and gate receipts.... Wish we could spend a bit more than our norm, and start the rebuilding process thereafter

Agreed. To be honest I think we pushed the boat out to an extent in January, when we were in danger, and I'm sure we will make the necessary moves in the summer to move things forward.

Well, I hope anyway!

scoopyboy
02-05-2011, 08:48 PM
:agree:however we cannot continually be in transition

I can see where you are coming from and don't disagree.

However if I was a board member I would ask you what do you do if we spend a considerable amount of money but then don't make the top six?

Baldy Foghorn
02-05-2011, 09:11 PM
I can see where you are coming from and don't disagree.

However if I was a board member I would ask you what do you do if we spend a considerable amount of money but then don't make the top six?

Pull my hair out and cry.....:wink:

We are being continually told that we are aiming to be a top 4 club, but this season is a write off....I do not have that answer Jock, but hopefully the players CC brings in get us back into top 6 or higher....

lapsedhibee
02-05-2011, 09:18 PM
You need an apostrophe in there; it's "mine's".



No you just need the singular "mine".The apostrophe could be used if was is deleted.
A Japanese learning English committed suicide when he saw a poster"play pronounced success".

Disagree with the sentence in bold. I'll go for The apostrophe can be used if was is deleted OR The apostrophe could be used if was were deleted.

scoopyboy
02-05-2011, 09:22 PM
Pull my hair out and cry.....:wink:

We are being continually told that we are aiming to be a top 4 club, but this season is a write off....I do not have that answer Jock, but hopefully the players CC brings in get us back into top 6 or higher....

Brockie, I don't have the answer either.

I'm kinda hoping Motherwell, Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock are poorer next season, I believe they will be due to losing players and not having money to replace them. Their then untried managers will hopefully be found out.

Then looking for us to improve, surely CC can get enough in to get us above the rest. Hibs will give him an amount to play with, he had better get it right or else we could struggle again.

I couldnae face another managerial change and all the upheavel that goes with it,

Ray_
02-05-2011, 09:25 PM
Where do you go to between Board threads? Never seem to notice you at other times.

Selective memory I think, I've been posting on Hibsnet since 1998.

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?208803-Like-Father-Like-Son&p=2788455&highlight=#post2788455

Kaiser1962
02-05-2011, 09:49 PM
What I want is a team on the park that can challenge the old firm and secure regular European football..... Get it right and the financial rewards would follow...Needs to be some middle ground obviously, but we all want to see a better product surely?

If you are 38 Baldy i would say, with no pleasure whatsoever, that we havent done this in your lifetime. I am 10 years older than you and can remember Turnbull's team when I was a boy and even then we only pushed them for three or four years.

What I am saying is that your wishes may prove to be more elusive than you think.

R'Albin
02-05-2011, 09:59 PM
Definitely.:agree: There have been references made, though, to investments that are beyond modest on our terms - the likes of Maka, AOB, De Graaf, Hart, Stokes, Miller, etc etc - the poor product hasn't only been down to a lack of spend, it's been down to poor signings, inconsistent managerial performance, the lack of any kind of consistency with a manager (we're on how many managers in how many years now??). We've never had a chance to build a team without it being dismantled and rebuilt within 18 months or so because managers have either been taken from us (Mowbray) or have walked/been pushed.

We need some consistency in the manager's position and allow for a team to be built before we can expect to be anything other than a mediocre side.
:agree:

Bobby's Cinema
02-05-2011, 10:01 PM
Well this is depressing as f###

skint, apathetic and out of town hibby...with another season ticket in the post :greengrin

Sammy7nil
02-05-2011, 10:06 PM
I have been a Hibby for 50 years I have never craved instant success (Just as well) apart from 5 or 6 years in those 50 Years Hibs have been RANK AVERAGE we are always promised better. When better comes it is sold immeadiately.

I have watched Aberdeen St Mirren, Dun Utd, Hearts and Motherwell all win the Scottish Cup (some more than once) and a couple of them won the league. My dad a life long Hibby died without seeing Hibs win the cup and I fear I will too.

I dont think we are demanding or craving success but what we have achieved by comparrison with others is LAUGHABLE

I posted that on another thread on Saturday , I have been a ST holder for what seems like for ever. Hibs fans are played like a fiddle promises of better next year but next year arrives and the same pish is on show. No idea how to end the cycle we probably cant.

Jones28
02-05-2011, 10:08 PM
Managable level of debt........ Other teams do it

Thats the stumbling block I think

The board have thus far shown clear resistance to going into any kind of debt apart from long term mortgages on the stadium, even East Mains was bought and paid for by transfers

Hibs are always going to be a selling club, there is no 2 ways about it. We've gotten rid of some younger players over the past few months (Byrne and Flynn spring to mind) that were hailed by most as the next Golden Generation. We've still got Booth and Welsh, not too sure who else, but to add quality will they not have to be sold on too?

We've never really replaced the likes of Whittiker, Brown, Thomson and O'Connor - home grown - or Murphy and Boozy - brought in by Mowbray. If the same is to happen with Booth and his fellow youth players then we will be in the same scenario 10 years down the line

Holding on to our youth players is the answer :agree:

ScottB
02-05-2011, 10:18 PM
Thats the stumbling block I think

The board have thus far shown clear resistance to going into any kind of debt apart from long term mortgages on the stadium, even East Mains was bought and paid for by transfers

Hibs are always going to be a selling club, there is no 2 ways about it. We've gotten rid of some younger players over the past few months (Byrne and Flynn spring to mind) that were hailed by most as the next Golden Generation. We've still got Booth and Welsh, not too sure who else, but to add quality will they not have to be sold on too?

We've never really replaced the likes of Whittiker, Brown, Thomson and O'Connor - home grown - or Murphy and Boozy - brought in by Mowbray. If the same is to happen with Booth and his fellow youth players then we will be in the same scenario 10 years down the line

Holding on to our youth players is the answer :agree:

Our debt is around £6million or so isn't? People seem to think we are a profit making, debtless club. We are a loss making indebted club.

I'd say what we have now is manageable.

HibbyAndy
02-05-2011, 10:22 PM
Our debt is around £6million or so isn't? People seem to think we are a profit making, debtless club. We are a loss making indebted club.

I'd say what we have now is manageable.


It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

Removed
02-05-2011, 10:27 PM
It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

:agree:

And multiply Andy's response by a good few thousand and it doesn't take a Phd to work out what the outcome will be.

IberianHibernian
02-05-2011, 10:32 PM
Our debt is around £6million or so isn't? People seem to think we are a profit making, debtless club. We are a loss making indebted club.

I'd say what we have now is manageable."Manageable" presumably depends on all income . In previous years we had good players to sell which is no longer the case . Season ticket numbers will be even lower than last year because of poor entertainment value and results of last couple of years added to economic climate and large number of seats available all of which will have a negative knock on affect on sales of strips etc . Some interesting signings before next season would undoubtedly increase ST sales , walk up sales for early matches , sales of new shirts and chance of attractive pre season friendlies . Presuming club is being promoted in a professional way of course .

Sammy7nil
02-05-2011, 10:32 PM
It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

Andy it is sad but true I feel the same.

I remeber the crowd I went with to ER had 18 ST between us (Inc 8 kids) just over 6 years ago. next year it will be 2 adults and one kid. I blame Hibs for this you could name 10 - 12 fans favs that have left the club in that time and only 1 or 2 decent players have arrived.

HibsMax
02-05-2011, 10:34 PM
To the current incumbents of the Board, and I hope to God one of them gets passed this to read........

We have a terrific infrastructure in place, to which you have done well to achieve... A great training complex at East Mains, and a terrific Stadium to boot.....

However, NOW is the time to invest in the playing squad, and add some REAL quality...... There is no point in the Stadium being a third full on matchdays, we have to see some quality additions in the Summer or fans will be lost, maybe even for good.....

The fans want to see a successful team on the park, and pay handsomely to do so.....If quality is not added revenue will almost certainly be down.... At AGM in October then the re-arranged AGM after Hughes departed, Fife Hyland (now MD), said he was looking at ways to increase revenue and turnover, well I put it to you Mr Petrie and Mr Hyland, that the only real way of achieving that goal is by putting a watchable product on the park......

Please show us some level of ambition, give us a team to be excited about, if you are not willing to bring in quality, then you do not deserve to be custodians of our wonderful Club...... Time to step up to the plate Gentlemen.
For the record, I am not on the Board. :D

But I do think that given all the investments that have been made off the pitch, now is the time to invest on the pitch. It's my hope that that is what the club / Board will be doing. I've supported the Board this far, "allowing" them to get our house in order.....but that's done now, so let's see what happens next.

Onwards and upwards!

HibsMax
02-05-2011, 10:36 PM
It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

Why would you quit now after supporting the club for so long.

I would say give the club the opportunity to invest in the club now that the infrastructure is in place.

To me it seems a shame to support the club this far only to quit when we're almost there....almost there meaning we're in a position to start investing in the team (players). But that's just my opinion.

Sammy7nil
02-05-2011, 10:46 PM
Why would you quit now after supporting the club for so long.

I would say give the club the opportunity to invest in the club now that the infrastructure is in place.

To me it seems a shame to support the club this far only to quit when we're almost there....almost there meaning we're in a position to start investing in the team (players). But that's just my opinion.

Max I have been going for over 40 years that is a long time with very little success and a dire derby record. Hibs were at one time the most important thing to me (When I was a Youngster and up to about 22), we all change and our lives changeI now know you cant do everything you want to, and unfortunately Hibs is no longer top of my list sad as that maybe.

HibbyAndy
02-05-2011, 10:51 PM
Why would you quit now after supporting the club for so long.

I would say give the club the opportunity to invest in the club now that the infrastructure is in place.

To me it seems a shame to support the club this far only to quit when we're almost there....almost there meaning we're in a position to start investing in the team (players). But that's just my opinion.



Tell you what ill do then....Ill wait to see who we sign before investing in another ST....But its chicken and egg scenario... Who makes the 1st move , US or Hibs.?...If guys like me are ready to wave the white flag then what are other Hibby's thinking?.

StevieC
02-05-2011, 10:54 PM
Even if we managed to get an extra 3,000 supporters to buy into the idea of season tickets for quality on the field .. that's only an extra £1m .. Or the equivalent of 2 £250k players on 5k a week. Hardly likely to be world beaters in that price range.

Youth and Bosmans are what we have to concentrate on, same as everyone else, and hopefully a good manager to gel them all together.

I seriously cringe everytime I hear the phrase "speculate to accumulate".

ScottB
02-05-2011, 11:00 PM
It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

A totally acceptable opinion.

Hell I live in Glasgow, £12 return on the train, £22 walk up on Saturday, to see that.

Something needs to be done about the cost, particularly in the current climate.

ScottB
02-05-2011, 11:04 PM
Even if we managed to get an extra 3,000 supporters to buy into the idea of season tickets for quality on the field .. that's only an extra £1m .. Or the equivalent of 2 £250k players on 5k a week. Hardly likely to be world beaters in that price range.

Youth and Bosmans are what we have to concentrate on, same as everyone else, and hopefully a good manager to gel them all together.

I seriously cringe everytime I hear the phrase "speculate to accumulate".

Indeed, since there is no pot of gold in Scottish football to strive for to justify it, and considering the Old Firm get papped out of Europe long before they get near the big bucks, all we'd do is build up debt, then have to go through the cost cutting phase all over again.

Iain G
03-05-2011, 12:28 AM
A totally acceptable opinion.

Hell I live in Glasgow, £12 return on the train, £22 walk up on Saturday, to see that.

Something needs to be done about the cost, particularly in the current climate.

Isn't that a big reason to buy a season ticket, as the cost per match is lower than the walk up prices?

Moulin Yarns
03-05-2011, 05:16 AM
A totally acceptable opinion.

Hell I live in Glasgow, £12 return on the train, £22 walk up on Saturday, to see that.

Something needs to be done about the cost, particularly in the current climate.


Isn't that a big reason to buy a season ticket, as the cost per match is lower than the walk up prices?

Not forgetting the difficulty of getting to matches at 12:00 on Sundays. The travelling time and cost to get to matches is a big factor for those of us living outside Edinburgh, it made me give up my season ticket. Now I pick and choose the games I go to.

Kaiser1962
03-05-2011, 06:42 AM
I have been a Hibby for 50 years I have never craved instant success (Just as well) apart from 5 or 6 years in those 50 Years Hibs have been RANK AVERAGE we are always promised better. When better comes it is sold immeadiately.

I have watched Aberdeen St Mirren, Dun Utd, Hearts and Motherwell all win the Scottish Cup (some more than once) and a couple of them won the league. My dad a life long Hibby died without seeing Hibs win the cup and I fear I will too.

I dont think we are demanding or craving success but what we have achieved by comparrison with others is LAUGHABLE

I posted that on another thread on Saturday , I have been a ST holder for what seems like for ever. Hibs fans are played like a fiddle promises of better next year but next year arrives and the same pish is on show. No idea how to end the cycle we probably cant.

I probably agree(ish) with most of this STB although I do believe that the custodians over those fifty years have set out with the best of intentions but, despite planning, things dont always go the way you want it. If spending cash was the issue then we would never have been relegated with George Best in the side, but we did.

The "When better comes it is sold immeadiately." bit is the only bit I really disagree with you about. I do not think that we intend to sell those players but if they make clear that they want to leave then surely it is the clubs duty to get as much as they can for them. There is no way we match the OF or the English on wages.

Incidentally we are losing £2m pa (on average) so we would really need to increase our attendances by 6k just to break even. Other comments suggest that while the price here is expensive, relatively speaking, with leagues in Spain or England, I would think that is more to do with TV money than anything else and if folk want us to compete, or even try to compete, then income has to come from somewhere to finance this.

Speedway
03-05-2011, 08:09 AM
So, are we asking the board to source external investment?

If not, who on the board has got any money other than STF who we know has given millions to a project he only got involved in because he was asked to keep it afloat.

He's kept it afloat for 20 years. He's not sinking big money in.

So again, where's the money coming from that we're asking the board to invest?

bingo70
03-05-2011, 08:28 AM
So, are we asking the board to source external investment?

If not, who on the board has got any money other than STF who we know has given millions to a project he only got involved in because he was asked to keep it afloat.

He's kept it afloat for 20 years. He's not sinking big money in.

So again, where's the money coming from that we're asking the board to invest?

Not read the whole thread and i'm actually on the boards side in this argument, i think they're doing the right thing by improving the infrastructure and increasing the playing budget year on year but i think the argument from the other side is that they would like us to spend more, go into debt but hope that by doing so it would pay off by increased attendences, good cup runs and better league positions.

Can understand both sides but as frustrating as it is i'd rather we continue down the route we're going just now rather than gambling on players that could get injured, might not settle or just be pish.

down the slope
03-05-2011, 08:36 AM
Every club in the SPL has money worries, us less than most but what have we got to show for it ?. We should have been rebuilding the ground on the back of a good team instead of trying to do it the other way round , the bricks and mortar was the easy bit and now the board have no hiding place so to speak as they only have one agenda to address namely getting a good team on the park. Lets see if all the Petrie worshipers are so happy in a few years.

bingo70
03-05-2011, 08:39 AM
Every club in the SPL has money worries, us less than most but what have we got to show for it ?. We should have been rebuilding the ground on the back of a good team instead of trying to do it the other way round , the bricks and mortar was the easy bit and now the board have no hiding place so to speak as they only have one agenda to address namely getting a good team on the park. Lets see if all the Petrie worshipers are so happy in a few years.

If you build the stand after a good team then you're knocking a stand down just as fans want to get in to see them play, by doing it this way it means when we do finally get a good team we can build on that success by attracting more fans and make more money to continue to build on that success.

jdships
03-05-2011, 08:52 AM
Every club in the SPL has money worries, us less than most but what have we got to show for it ?. We should have been rebuilding the ground on the back of a good team instead of trying to do it the other way round , the bricks and mortar was the easy bit and now the board have no hiding place so to speak as they only have one agenda to address namely getting a good team on the park. Lets see if all the Petrie worshipers are so happy in a few years.


Conversly will the Petrie detractors stand up and apologise if things do
improve. :greengrin
How do any of us , as supporters, have the slightest idea what the board are planning to do over the next two/three years ?

:rolleyes::flag:

dangermouse
03-05-2011, 08:54 AM
I could not agree more with the above. I am sick of reading on here about how the board need to do this, Sir Tom needs to do that, the players need to do this. It is becoming really boring, if we want a better quality of player and team, then we need a better quality of fan, a fan that will turn up regardless, not sit there and decided to go when we are playing a bigger team, or see if we are going to sign anybody before buying a ST or ticket on matchday. Then deciding to call themselves a hibs fan and sit at home watching a random english team on sky sports (probably moaning at the same time about how tv is killing the game).

Our board have managed the club to provide training facilities, a sound financial structure, and a great stadium in a very short space of time. Hands in pockets or no moaning.

The quality of player on the pitch is a refection of the huge swing in people being or not being a hibs fan.

Common sense prevails at last.

blackpoolhibs
03-05-2011, 09:08 AM
It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

7k crowds are what some of the teams above us would kill for. Each Hibs manager gets backed, its entirely down to them how we perform. They get more money to spend than most teams bar the obvious, giving them more is not guaranteed to bring them success.

Let them whoevers in charge start to manage properly, and show some management skills before we start putting the club in more debt than it already is.

Speedway
03-05-2011, 09:09 AM
7k crowds are what some of the teams above us would kill for. Each Hibs manager gets backed, its entirely down to them how we perform. They get more money to spend than most teams bar the obvious, giving them more is not guaranteed to bring them success.

Let them whoevers in charge start to manage properly, and show some management skills before we start putting the club in more debt than it already is.

:agree: Basically.

smurf
03-05-2011, 09:36 AM
I hope we go with a small squad with kids.

Quality over quantity is one way of getting in better quality...

There is no easy answer. However, i don't think anyone should underestimate the depression within the support at our club. Lots of real hardcore supporters have totally had enough. Hibs are and have been very poor within a turgid SPL set-up.

And if this depression has penetrated the hardcore element (it has) then it doesn't take much to extrapolate from that the consequences of the fairweather support base.

The current custodian/board business model needs averages at ER above 12,000 to make ER viable.

Us supporters do need to support our club through purchasing season tickets but we do need to see some imagination from the board and manager this summer in order to punt them...

ScottB
03-05-2011, 09:47 AM
Isn't that a big reason to buy a season ticket, as the cost per match is lower than the walk up prices?

Only if you can get to every game, I can't. For example there's no chance of me making any sort of half 7 kick off after work, when I've tried I've inevitably missed chunks of the first half.

In general, more than £20 to see us play ST Johnstone for the 4th time this season in a totally meaningless game is far too much, no wonder the ground was empty!

Stevie Reid
03-05-2011, 09:47 AM
7k crowds are what some of the teams above us would kill for. Each Hibs manager gets backed, its entirely down to them how we perform. They get more money to spend than most teams bar the obvious, giving them more is not guaranteed to bring them success.

Let them whoevers in charge start to manage properly, and show some management skills before we start putting the club in more debt than it already is.

Exactly. Incidentally, what has Dundee Utd's average attendance been this year on the back of finishing comfortably 3rd and winning the Scottish Cup (ignoring the rearranged fixtures)? Given their success in the 80s they should surely have a large latent support to call upon, and given the recent troubles of their bitter rivals, things could hardly be better for a Dundee Utd supporter, surely - but they don't turn up.

They invested heavily when Eddie Thompson took over and ended up in the bottom 6 every year, going through several managers. It was only when they appointed Levein that they started really progressing and that was purely through astute management and great use of the transfer market, not investing heavily. They will now lose several key players in the summer due to the excesses of previous years.

CC will have a more than ample budget to attract quality to ER - he just has to find the players and use them well.

Andy74
03-05-2011, 09:47 AM
7k crowds are what some of the teams above us would kill for. Each Hibs manager gets backed, its entirely down to them how we perform. They get more money to spend than most teams bar the obvious, giving them more is not guaranteed to bring them success.

Let them whoevers in charge start to manage properly, and show some management skills before we start putting the club in more debt than it already is.

Yep, this debtate only comes up when the manager/team are doing badly.

The chat during February was that the right players had been delivered.

Well, the Board provided them but we are seeing now that maybe they might either be not as good as we thought or that the manager isn't getting the best out of them.

Let's see where we are at the end of August. I believe the manager will get backed the same way as previous ones have been. We can then see if we have any better a managment team and players than we had previously.

greenlex
03-05-2011, 09:49 AM
Only if you can get to every game, I can't. For example there's no chance of me making any sort of half 7 kick off after work, when I've tried I've inevitably missed chunks of the first half.

In general, more than £20 to see us play ST Johnstone for the 4th time this season in a totally meaningless game is far too much, no wonder the ground was empty!
If it was for the first time at ER this season do you really think it would have made any difference to the size of the crowd?

greenlex
03-05-2011, 09:50 AM
Yep, this debtate only comes up when the manager/team are doing badly.

The chat during February was that the right players had been delivered.

Well, the Board provided them but we are seeing now that maybe they might either be not as good as we thought or that the manager isn't getting the best out of them.

Let's see where we are at the end of August. I believe the manager will get backed the same way as previous ones have been. We can then see if we have any better a managment team and players than we had previously.
I agree Andy but I think we need to wait till this time next year to see where we are.

down the slope
03-05-2011, 09:55 AM
[/U][/B]


Conversly will the Petrie detractors stand up and apologise if things do
improve. :greengrin
How do any of us , as supporters, have the slightest idea what the board are planning to do over the next two/three years ?

:rolleyes::flag:

I will stand up and apologise if he gets things right , what's been haudin him up though ? .

Speedway
03-05-2011, 09:56 AM
I will stand up and apologise if he gets things right , what's been haudin him up though ? .

Nae fans.

Fans - Invest in larger numbers...or leave.

Speedway
03-05-2011, 09:57 AM
I agree Andy but I think we need to wait till this time next year to see where we are.

Lex, ultimately I think that, wherever we end up next year, we'll see that this is where we will be at that time.

bingo70
03-05-2011, 09:58 AM
I will stand up and apologise if he gets things right , what's been haudin him up though ? .

How quickly do you expect to build a new stadium, training ground, clear £18m debt and put out a winning team :dunno:

ScottB
03-05-2011, 09:59 AM
If it was for the first time at ER this season do you really think it would have made any difference to the size of the crowd?

Quite possibly, but it surely doesn't help!

StevieC
03-05-2011, 10:17 AM
We should have been rebuilding the ground on the back of a good team

That's exactly what we did.

We had a good team (Brown/Whittaker/Thomson/O'Connor/Murphy/Fletcher) ...

... and then we sold most of them to clear debt and improve the stadium.

Ray_
03-05-2011, 10:21 AM
[/U][/B]


Conversly will the Petrie detractors stand up and apologise if things do
improve. :greengrin
How do any of us , as supporters, have the slightest idea what the board are planning to do over the next two/three years ?

:rolleyes::flag:

Conversely, will the board apologise for the last three years of mind numbingly dull & inferior football?

Baldy Foghorn
03-05-2011, 10:30 AM
It will only get worse.

Our 7k crowds will be the norm...No decent named signings and im dun..Hibs have had far to much of my cash.No ****ing more.

That is the slant the Board will give us for not adding signings of quality. They only spend the monies received on player budgets from season ticket sales, so if you and many others dont renew we are doomed I tell thee.....

Stevie Reid
03-05-2011, 10:33 AM
Let's have a wee run down of the teams that have speculated in an attempt to accumulate and secure 3rd in the SPL: -

Hearts have done it for several years from Chris Robinson onwards, with increasing levels of debt with every passing year. They have been more successful than anyone else, and due to the unique position that they are in with their owner they can keep trading with a debt of £36M. Have still managed a bottom 6 finish in the last 3 years, and we have finished above them 3 times since Romanov arrived, despite them spending around £30M more on wages than us.

Dundee - got nowhere near 3rd and got to one SC Final prior to being relegated after going into administration. Last year they spent big to get out of the 1st but failed, and again have gone into administration. Ironically, working with an enforced managerial appointment and threadbare squad, they are the best team in the 1st division.

Dunfermline - got a 4th place finish and a SC Final before going into administration and being relegated. Have only just returned having kept faith in a manager for the last 3 years in that division.

Livingston - finished 3rd in the SPL. Relegation and administration were not far behind, and have just been promoted back into the First Division.

Motherwell - finished 4th and went into administration shortly after. Avoided relegation one year only due to the 1st division winners not having a suitable stadium. Finished 3rd under McGhee a few years later on a fraction of the budget Billy Davies had for the team that finished 4th. Were favourites for relegation last year having lost many of their better players and finished 4th again.

We did it, very soon after investing heavily to get out of the 1st division - we secured 3rd and a SC Final place but were £17M in debt and on the verge of administration very soon after, and needed a concerted effor from both the Board and the fans (SUABC) to avoid us having to sell our spiritual home to stay afloat. 3 years after that initiative, Tony Mowbray led us to 3rd place with a fraction of the budget that McLeish had, and then JC managed the team that won the League Cup in 2007 - increased amounts spent on transfer fees and wages brought no further success for the rest of JC's or MP's time, then we finished 4th last year under Yogi, one of our highest ever finishes in the SPL. 8 years after we almost had to sell ER, we had a completed 21,000 seater stadium. This year is our first bottom 6 finish in 7 years.

To summarise, "speculation" = unsustainable debt, and 3rd place is achievable with good management on a budget more limited than we will have in the summer.

basehibby
03-05-2011, 10:34 AM
I was not commenting on who started the thread or your attendance. I am just pointing out that a large percentage of our fans expect so much and consider giving so little. Should Rod and the rest of the board be coming round to wipe there a£se as well?!

My simple message is put up or shut up - the board have done more than plenty for the club and fans, I bet you there are so many out there that are happy to criticise but only willing to pay to go and watch hearts or rangers etc.

I would be willing to put money on it that if the fans walked through the door, handed over there money, the board would do the same in terms of investment on the pitch.

You express some very noble sentiments, but lets get real here for a moment - we are slap bang in the middle of a recession and a significant amount of fans have lost their jobs/are worried about their futures and tightening their belts.

In these circumstances it is simply ludicrous for many to splash out money for a ST when the outlook suggests the prospect of being subjected to a long series of depressing and humiliating failures against teams we know we should be beating.

That has been the story most weeks for over a year now and IMO a lot of fans will not be renewing STs unless they see positive signs of a brighter future just around the corner. For me that means a positive statement from the top in the shape of solid investment on the park.

The morale of the support is at a very low ebb and who can blame us having witnessed some of the worst form in the club's history along with the usual flogging off of the club's best talent over the last year or so. We need something to excite us and restore our faith - do that and the STs will be sold and the coffers will be restocked in due course - hanging around until August to deal in free transfers will only result in further disillusionment and reduced revenues.

It's a chicken and egg situation alright - and this time round the board need to take a leap of faith IMO and provide the incentives in the shape of exciting signings that will see the new stand filled up with eager ST holders.

FranckSuzy
03-05-2011, 11:05 AM
Let's have a wee run down of the teams that have speculated in an attempt to accumulate and secure 3rd in the SPL: -

Hearts have done it for several years from Chris Robinson onwards, with increasing levels of debt with every passing year. They have been more successful than anyone else, and due to the unique position that they are in with their owner they can keep trading with a debt of £36M. Have still managed a bottom 6 finish in the last 3 years, and we have finished above them 3 times since Romanov arrived, despite them spending around £30M more on wages than us.

Dundee - got nowhere near 3rd and got to one SC Final prior to being relegated after going into administration. Last year they spent big to get out of the 1st but failed, and again have gone into administration. Ironically, working with an enforced managerial appointment and threadbare squad, they are the best team in the 1st division.

Dunfermline - got a 4th place finish and a SC Final before going into administration and being relegated. Have only just returned having kept faith in a manager for the last 3 years in that division.

Livingston - finished 3rd in the SPL. Relegation and administration were not far behind, and have just been promoted back into the First Division.

Motherwell - finished 4th and went into administration shortly after. Avoided relegation one year only due to the 1st division winners not having a suitable stadium. Finished 3rd under McGhee a few years later on a fraction of the budget Billy Davies had for the team that finished 4th. Were favourites for relegation last year having lost many of their better players and finished 4th again.

We did it, very soon after investing heavily to get out of the 1st division - we secured 3rd and a SC Final place but were £17M in debt and on the verge of administration very soon after, and needed a concerted effor from both the Board and the fans (SUABC) to avoid us having to sell our spiritual home to stay afloat. 3 years after that initiative, Tony Mowbray led us to 3rd place with a fraction of the budget that McLeish had, and then JC managed the team that won the League in 2007 - increased amounts spent on transfer fees and wages brought no further success for the rest of JC's or MP's time, then we finished 4th last year under Yogi, one of our highest ever finishes in the SPL. 8 years after we almost had to sell ER, we had a completed 21,000 seater stadium. This year is our first bottom 6 finish in 7 years.

To summerise, "speculation" = unsustainable debt, and 3rd place is achievable with good management on a budget more limited than we will have in the summer.

Very good post but I feel you've over-egged the pudding re JC's success. Perhaps the word cup is missing? :wink:

Peevemor
03-05-2011, 11:06 AM
Let's have a wee run down of the teams that have speculated in an attempt to accumulate and secure 3rd in the SPL: -

Hearts have done it for several years from Chris Robinson onwards, with increasing levels of debt with every passing year. They have been more successful than anyone else, and due to the unique position that they are in with their owner they can keep trading with a debt of £36M. Have still managed a bottom 6 finish in the last 3 years, and we have finished above them 3 times since Romanov arrived, despite them spending around £30M more on wages than us.

Dundee - got nowhere near 3rd and got to one SC Final prior to being relegated after going into administration. Last year they spent big to get out of the 1st but failed, and again have gone into administration. Ironically, working with an enforced managerial appointment and threadbare squad, they are the best team in the 1st division.

Dunfermline - got a 4th place finish and a SC Final before going into administration and being relegated. Have only just returned having kept faith in a manager for the last 3 years in that division.

Livingston - finished 3rd in the SPL. Relegation and administration were not far behind, and have just been promoted back into the First Division.

Motherwell - finished 4th and went into administration shortly after. Avoided relegation one year only due to the 1st division winners not having a suitable stadium. Finished 3rd under McGhee a few years later on a fraction of the budget Billy Davies had for the team that finished 4th. Were favourites for relegation last year having lost many of their better players and finished 4th again.

We did it, very soon after investing heavily to get out of the 1st division - we secured 3rd and a SC Final place but were £17M in debt and on the verge of administration very soon after, and needed a concerted effor from both the Board and the fans (SUABC) to avoid us having to sell our spiritual home to stay afloat. 3 years after that initiative, Tony Mowbray led us to 3rd place with a fraction of the budget that McLeish had, and then JC managed the team that won the League in 2007 - increased amounts spent on transfer fees and wages brought no further success for the rest of JC's or MP's time, then we finished 4th last year under Yogi, one of our highest ever finishes in the SPL. 8 years after we almost had to sell ER, we had a completed 21,000 seater stadium. This year is our first bottom 6 finish in 7 years.

To summerise, "speculation" = unsustainable debt, and 3rd place is achievable with good management on a budget more limited than we will have in the summer.

Great post. :top marks

basehibby
03-05-2011, 11:13 AM
Even if we managed to get an extra 3,000 supporters to buy into the idea of season tickets for quality on the field .. that's only an extra £1m .. Or the equivalent of 2 £250k players on 5k a week. Hardly likely to be world beaters in that price range.

Youth and Bosmans are what we have to concentrate on, same as everyone else, and hopefully a good manager to gel them all together.

I seriously cringe everytime I hear the phrase "speculate to accumulate".

Speculate to acumulate doesn't just refer to transfer fees - it can equally refer to being prepared to pay that bit more wages before the rest in order to secure quality rather than hanging around and settling for second best.

In any case, the phrase is totally relevent to this thread - what we are talking about after all is the board offering a carrot in the shape of good signings to tempt fans into buying STs - as oposed to maybe waiting until August to see what's in the pot and spending it on the players who remain unsigned.

That IS speculation in order to accumulate ST holders - so cringe away!

Stevie Reid
03-05-2011, 11:14 AM
Very good post but I feel you've over-egged the pudding re JC's success. Perhaps the word cup is missing? :wink:

Ha, fair dos!

IWasThere2016
03-05-2011, 11:19 AM
Let's have a wee run down of the teams that have speculated in an attempt to accumulate and secure 3rd in the SPL: -

Hearts have done it for several years from Chris Robinson onwards, with increasing levels of debt with every passing year. They have been more successful than anyone else, and due to the unique position that they are in with their owner they can keep trading with a debt of £36M. Have still managed a bottom 6 finish in the last 3 years, and we have finished above them 3 times since Romanov arrived, despite them spending around £30M more on wages than us.

Dundee - got nowhere near 3rd and got to one SC Final prior to being relegated after going into administration. Last year they spent big to get out of the 1st but failed, and again have gone into administration. Ironically, working with an enforced managerial appointment and threadbare squad, they are the best team in the 1st division.

Dunfermline - got a 4th place finish and a SC Final before going into administration and being relegated. Have only just returned having kept faith in a manager for the last 3 years in that division.

Livingston - finished 3rd in the SPL. Relegation and administration were not far behind, and have just been promoted back into the First Division.

Motherwell - finished 4th and went into administration shortly after. Avoided relegation one year only due to the 1st division winners not having a suitable stadium. Finished 3rd under McGhee a few years later on a fraction of the budget Billy Davies had for the team that finished 4th. Were favourites for relegation last year having lost many of their better players and finished 4th again.

We did it, very soon after investing heavily to get out of the 1st division - we secured 3rd and a SC Final place but were £17M in debt and on the verge of administration very soon after, and needed a concerted effor from both the Board and the fans (SUABC) to avoid us having to sell our spiritual home to stay afloat. 3 years after that initiative, Tony Mowbray led us to 3rd place with a fraction of the budget that McLeish had, and then JC managed the team that won the League Cup in 2007 - increased amounts spent on transfer fees and wages brought no further success for the rest of JC's or MP's time, then we finished 4th last year under Yogi, one of our highest ever finishes in the SPL. 8 years after we almost had to sell ER, we had a completed 21,000 seater stadium. This year is our first bottom 6 finish in 7 years.

To summarise, "speculation" = unsustainable debt, and 3rd place is achievable with good management on a budget more limited than we will have in the summer.

One significant flaw S - we sold a golden generation of players to cover trading losses (incurred without "speculation" per se) and we will need to do so going forward as we are losing money. The trouble is we are not guaranteed to produce players of similar quality and value???

FranckSuzy
03-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Ha, fair dos!

:aok: Made me laugh anyway :greengrin

Stevie Reid
03-05-2011, 11:29 AM
One significant flaw S - we sold a golden generation of players to cover trading losses (incurred without "speculation" per se) and we will need to do so going forward as we are losing money. The trouble is we are not guaranteed to produce players of similar quality and value???

The £17M loss was very much accumulated by speculation - the wages spent during the McLeish era were huge, and we paid a few transfer fees during his time also.

I very much appreciate that we could not be where we are without the golden generation, but given the investment in the training centre and commitment to bringing on youngsters, there is every chance that it may happen again. It also bothers me when many on here say that we got lucky with that group of youngsters - whilst it was certainly unusual to get so many quality players coming through at one time, there was nothing lucky about it, it was the result of a good youth set up.

The golden generation accumulated more income than any speculation on transfer fees and wages ever did. Reinvesting the money to get the club out of debt and completed infrastructure is sound business - if we ever do have anything close to another golden generation, it will be reinvested in the team, unless we get into seriously unsustainable debt again.

The mistakes of the past will not be forgotten by this board - I for one am very grateful for that.

Stevie Reid
03-05-2011, 11:30 AM
:aok: Made me laugh anyway :greengrin

We almost won the first quarter of the league under JC :greengrin

IWasThere2016
03-05-2011, 11:34 AM
The £17M loss was very much accumulated by speculation - the wages spent during the McLeish era were huge, and we paid a few transfer fees during his time also.

I very much appreciate that we could not be where we are without the golden generation, but given the investment in the training centre and commitment to bringing on youngsters, there is every chance that it may happen again. It also bothers me when many on here say that we got lucky with that group of youngsters - whilst it was certainly unusual to get so many quality players coming through at one time, there was nothing lucky about it, it was the result of a good youth set up.

The golden generation accumulated more income than any speculation on transfer fees and wages ever did. Reinvesting the money to get the club out of debt and completed infrastructure is sound business - if we ever do have anything close to another golden generation, it will be reinvested in the team, unless we get into seriously unsustainable debt again.

The mistakes of the past will not be forgotten by this board - I for one am very grateful for that.

The £17m wasn't a loss - it was debt.

The funds from the car park/player sales were required to repay debt (which we still) have, invest in East Mains and the ground (we took on more debt for the East Stand) - but we are still losing money now.

Barring new investment, the only things IMHO that will reverse this is a good team on the park (and future player sales).

ScottB
03-05-2011, 11:34 AM
Speculate to acumulate doesn't just refer to transfer fees - it can equally refer to being prepared to pay that bit more wages before the rest in order to secure quality rather than hanging around and settling for second best.

In any case, the phrase is totally relevent to this thread - what we are talking about after all is the board offering a carrot in the shape of good signings to tempt fans into buying STs - as oposed to maybe waiting until August to see what's in the pot and spending it on the players who remain unsigned.

That IS speculation in order to accumulate ST holders - so cringe away!

Guys like O'Brien and Maka very much fit into the 'speculate' category. It aint no guarantee for anything. Any player of talent is going to be lured off to England on wages we can never afford, regardless of how much we 'speculate' and I'm sick of wasting big bucks on washed up / unfit / personal issues blighted players that have bombed down south. Has Liam Miller been worth the top dollar we've been paying him? I don't think so.

And as was well put a few points up, clubs have often performed better when they've been forced into fielding teams of hungry players rather than the class of over overpaid has been we could attract for more money.

Sammy7nil
03-05-2011, 11:34 AM
I hope we go with a small squad with kids.

Quality over quantity is one way of getting in better quality...

There is no easy answer. However, i don't think anyone should underestimate the depression within the support at our club. Lots of real hardcore supporters have totally had enough. Hibs are and have been very poor within a turgid SPL set-up.

And if this depression has penetrated the hardcore element (it has) then it doesn't take much to extrapolate from that the consequences of the fairweather support base.

The current custodian/board business model needs averages at ER above 12,000 to make ER viable.

Us supporters do need to support our club through purchasing season tickets but we do need to see some imagination from the board and manager this summer in order to punt them...

:top marks:top marks:top marks

Stevie Reid
03-05-2011, 12:11 PM
The £17m wasn't a loss - it was debt.

The funds from the car park/player sales were required to repay debt (which we still) have, invest in East Mains and the ground (we took on more debt for the East Stand) - but we are still losing money now.

Barring new investment, the only things IMHO that will reverse this is a good team on the park (and future player sales).

Sorry, debt is what I meant, and it was accumulated by spending beyond our means.

basehibby
03-05-2011, 01:25 PM
Guys like O'Brien and Maka very much fit into the 'speculate' category. It aint no guarantee for anything. Any player of talent is going to be lured off to England on wages we can never afford, regardless of how much we 'speculate' and I'm sick of wasting big bucks on washed up / unfit / personal issues blighted players that have bombed down south. Has Liam Miller been worth the top dollar we've been paying him? I don't think so.

And as was well put a few points up, clubs have often performed better when they've been forced into fielding teams of hungry players rather than the class of over overpaid has been we could attract for more money.

You've got a point that there's never any guarantees - however, I think that the support (and the team!) is in desperate need of a shot in the arm, so cutting the budget in response to poor ST sales would not be the answer.
On the other hand, if the right kind of signing is made in the summer - showing a bit of urgency, ambition and imagination - then I think the fans will respond at the box office and the extra expense incurred (within reason) would be justified.

I think with the completion of the stadium, Hibs are now at something of a crossroads whereby sufficient investmant on the park could kick into life something of an upward spiral in the club's fortunes both financially and on the field of play, while an overcautious approach may well end up undoing much of the good work done over the last decade or so.

bingo70
03-05-2011, 01:38 PM
You've got a point that there's never any guarantees - however, I think that the support (and the team!) is in desperate need of a shot in the arm, so cutting the budget in response to poor ST sales would not be the answer.
On the other hand, if the right kind of signing is made in the summer - showing a bit of urgency, ambition and imagination - then I think the fans will respond at the box office and the extra expense incurred (within reason) would be justified.

I think with the completion of the stadium, Hibs are now at something of a crossroads whereby sufficient investmant on the park could kick into life something of an upward spiral in the club's fortunes both financially and on the field of play, while an overcautious approach may well end up undoing much of the good work done over the last decade or so.

Good post :agree:

I generally back the board and i think they'll be aware of the issue they now face with the stadium completed and i've got a feeling that'll be reflected with this summers spending, if it's not then i may well start to get a lot more critical of them.

In general we should always try to be run at a profit but the occasional year of loss might be necessary from time to time.

IMO one thing that is important this year is getting players in earlier than we have done in recent windows, i'm aware of the annual excuses but this is a massive transfer window for the club and business needs to be done early this year to stop fans becoming even more fed up with the club.

Spike Mandela
03-05-2011, 03:00 PM
Good post :agree:

I generally back the board and i think they'll be aware of the issue they now face with the stadium completed and i've got a feeling that'll be reflected with this summers spending, if it's not then i may well start to get a lot more critical of them.

In general we should always try to be run at a profit but the occasional year of loss might be necessary from time to time.

IMO one thing that is important this year is getting players in earlier than we have done in recent windows, i'm aware of the annual excuses but this is a massive transfer window for the club and business needs to be done early this year to stop fans becoming even more fed up with the club.

It will not matter how early or late the players come in. If the wagws we spend stay roughly the same we will be trolling around in the usual bargain bucket trying to find gems along with Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell and even Hearts.

I suspect the faces will be different but it will be more of the same and (yet another) year in transition.

Albion Hibs
03-05-2011, 03:09 PM
You express some very noble sentiments, but lets get real here for a moment - we are slap bang in the middle of a recession and a significant amount of fans have lost their jobs/are worried about their futures and tightening their belts.

In these circumstances it is simply ludicrous for many to splash out money for a ST when the outlook suggests the prospect of being subjected to a long series of depressing and humiliating failures against teams we know we should be beating.

That has been the story most weeks for over a year now and IMO a lot of fans will not be renewing STs unless they see positive signs of a brighter future just around the corner. For me that means a positive statement from the top in the shape of solid investment on the park.

The morale of the support is at a very low ebb and who can blame us having witnessed some of the worst form in the club's history along with the usual flogging off of the club's best talent over the last year or so. We need something to excite us and restore our faith - do that and the STs will be sold and the coffers will be restocked in due course - hanging around until August to deal in free transfers will only result in further disillusionment and reduced revenues.

It's a chicken and egg situation alright - and this time round the board need to take a leap of faith IMO and provide the incentives in the shape of exciting signings that will see the new stand filled up with eager ST holders.

You are quite correct that given these uncertain times it is an ask for people to spend money on anything other than essentials, I know only to well working in a line of work that has been severly affected by the recession.

What I would say is that given the both acknowledge that - what makes Hibs the sort of business that has additional money to spend during a recession, and furthermore what certainty is there they will see a return on this given the personal situation of many?

Surely your opening paragraph confirms even more that this risky strategy by acknowledging the times we are in. I would suggest such investment without the backing of the fans or any certainty is ludocrous, and in reality what makes anyone think a bank or lender would support it - perhaps the board do want to invest but it is a simple case of even during good economic times there is no certainty crowds and revenue will increase.

In summary we are asking the club as a whole, that represents all hibs fans, to do something that so many individual fans would not.

If I hold the club responsible for anything it is perhaps not making more of the fact that early purchases and more season tickets sold WILL result in better player/increased budget much sooner into the season before.

Cocaine&Caviar
03-05-2011, 03:16 PM
It will not matter how early or late the players come in. If the wagws we spend stay roughly the same we will be trolling around in the usual bargain bucket trying to find gems along with Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell and even Hearts.

I suspect the faces will be different but it will be more of the same and (yet another) year in transition.

But Calderwood has already said that he is looking for a squad of 20, much smaller than recent seasons, and with the possibility of big earners, Riordan, Miller and De Graff leaving in addition to Zemmama, Bamba etc that have left in recent times, theres a possiblility of more quality than quantity that we have amassed in recent years. Wage budget staying the same, but utilised differently.

We are in a far stronger position than the other clubs highlighted, not in terms of performance this season, but in terms of attractability with better finances in place, better stadium, better training facilities, and a generally better place to live...

HibsMax
03-05-2011, 03:31 PM
Tell you what ill do then....Ill wait to see who we sign before investing in another ST....But its chicken and egg scenario... Who makes the 1st move , US or Hibs.?...If guys like me are ready to wave the white flag then what are other Hibby's thinking?.

I hear ya. Your chicken / egg analogy is right on the money. But I think things are a little different this time around.

We've finished the stand.
We've built the training facility.

What else is there other than the players? If the Board does not invest in the team NOW, why bother investing in the infrastructure for the past few years? That would make no sense (to me) and that's why I think the next year or so will be very telling.

HibsMax
03-05-2011, 03:33 PM
Even if we managed to get an extra 3,000 supporters to buy into the idea of season tickets for quality on the field .. that's only an extra £1m .. Or the equivalent of 2 £250k players on 5k a week. Hardly likely to be world beaters in that price range.

Youth and Bosmans are what we have to concentrate on, same as everyone else, and hopefully a good manager to gel them all together.

I seriously cringe everytime I hear the phrase "speculate to accumulate".

And so you should because that means taking a risk and we all know, from reading these message boards, what happens when Hibs takes a risk that doesn't pay off. I'm talking about taking risks on players, tactics, etc. Only this weekend CC was hauled over the coals for experimenting. Risk is risk whether it be investing, playing, coaching, trading, etc.

HibsMax
03-05-2011, 03:41 PM
[/U][/B]


Conversly will the Petrie detractors stand up and apologise if things do
improve. :greengrin
How do any of us , as supporters, have the slightest idea what the board are planning to do over the next two/three years ?

:rolleyes::flag:

Good point. I don't think (m)any of us do. While I am equally as unhappy with the quality of football on display, I still think the club is taking the right approach. Slow and steady wins the race. That said I am now expecting BIG things from the Board over the next couple of years in terms of cash for players.

jdships
03-05-2011, 03:48 PM
Good point. I don't think (m)any of us do. While I am equally as unhappy with the quality of football on display, I still think the club is taking the right approach. Slow and steady wins the race. That said I am now expecting BIG things from the Board over the next couple of years in terms of cash for players.

:top marks
I'll happily go along with that :agree:

:flag:

Barney McGrew
03-05-2011, 04:02 PM
theres a possiblility of more quality than quantity that we have amassed in recent years. Wage budget staying the same, but utilised differently.

I'm fairly certain that is the aim for CC and the board.

HUTCHYHIBBY
03-05-2011, 04:56 PM
That said I am now expecting BIG things from the Board over the next couple of years in terms of cash for players.

Does anyone seriously believe this will happen though? I just cant see it.

Kaiser1962
03-05-2011, 05:08 PM
One significant flaw S - we sold a golden generation of players to cover trading losses (incurred without "speculation" per se) and we will need to do so going forward as we are losing money. The trouble is we are not guaranteed to produce players of similar quality and value???

Wasnt it that they wanted to leave?

As an aside, and been pointed out already, for a "Golden" generation they've not exactly set the world on fire. Been dissapointing overall I might say.

son of haggart
03-05-2011, 05:10 PM
The big issue surely is not the overall wage bill but the salary offered - it is that which will determine the type of player who Hibs can buy.

My guess is that Hibs will go for young players with potential - 1st division players or out of contract players from abroad, where the wage offered will be a step up. In both cases there is a chance of sell on level.
The alternative would be to set a differential wage level for some high quality players of experience. I don't see any evidence in previous behaviour by Petrie to suggest he will go down that route.

If it is a 20 player squad I would expect 6 or 7 players on good wages rather than 2 or 3 on a higher level.

WhileTheChief..
03-05-2011, 05:22 PM
But Calderwood has already said that he is looking for a squad of 20, much smaller than recent seasons, and with the possibility of big earners, Riordan, Miller and De Graff leaving in addition to Zemmama, Bamba etc that have left in recent times, theres a possiblility of more quality than quantity that we have amassed in recent years. Wage budget staying the same, but utilised differently.

Totally agree that this is what we should be doing. The level of investment in the playing squad is adequate enough to compete for 3rd or 4th in the league when compared to Aberdeen, Utd, Motherwell etc.

What is worrying is how we spend it. Whilst CCs signings in January have certainly helped, to me they are no better than average.

A new contract for Stevenson and linked with Sproule won't do enough to get me to renew next year.

I'm one of the Hibs' fans so loathed on here. Stopped going for years and watched on tv instead. Decided to start going again when we signed Stokes and Millar because i thought fair play, Hibs are spending so i should do my bit.

I just can't see me going back for more as the last 2 seasons have generally been woeful. I guess I'm part of the problem.

HibsMax
03-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Let's say the Hibs board grant CC 2 million UKP to spend over the summer on new players (not re-signing existing players). How would you like to see that money spent?

Ryan69
03-05-2011, 06:11 PM
Its about time they invested!

We have had our dreams shattered for years...cost cutting and reinvesting in the club!

Now is the time! Celtic and Rangers are struggling these days! Celtic will also have to sell in summer,Rangers will obviously be selling!

If the board want to run it like a business,then they gotta start have to doing so!

The fact remains that in business if your product is garbage,nobody will buy....Its only a matter of time before our fans stop buying!

Westie1875
03-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Two at 1/2 mil each (centre half and striker) and 4 at 1/4 mil each. :greengrin

HibsMax
03-05-2011, 07:18 PM
Its about time they invested!

We have had our dreams shattered for years...cost cutting and reinvesting in the club!

Now is the time! Celtic and Rangers are struggling these days! Celtic will also have to sell in summer,Rangers will obviously be selling!

If the board want to run it like a business,then they gotta start have to doing so!

The fact remains that in business if your product is garbage,nobody will buy....Its only a matter of time before our fans stop buying!
I agree and disagree. Football is a product that is bought with passion.

Let's say you always bought BMWs and then they stopped producing cars that you like so you move to Audi. Not a big deal, it's not like your dumping Hibs for Hearts. Let's say BMW introduces a model that you love...you sell your Audi and jump back on the BMW wagon. Nothing wrong with any of that, it's how consumers operate. Chances are you're not going to keep buying a brand of car that you are not satisfied with. The same cannot be said about a football team. If you stopped buying BMWs and they went out of business, you probably wouldn't be that gutted. If you stopped investing in Hibs and they went into administration, chances are you would be upset.

It's the tug on the heart strings that gets you and I don't know how you put a price on that. I don't know about you but there aren't that many products that I feel that tightly coupled with.

You more than likely buy things because they are quality, or out of necessity. That is not the case with football. If it was then everyone would be supporting either Rangers or Celtic. I know, ludicrous!

"Your point, Caller?" - Oh, yeah! :) Hibs is a product that we buy not because we're guaranteed wins or beautiful football or immense talent on display every week.....but we sure as hell would LOVE all of those. We buy it because we love them. Unfortunately we need to be patient (I know!) and wait for that day....and enjoy it when it comes.

ancient hibee
03-05-2011, 07:26 PM
The reason for a 20 man squad is that now there is no reserve team it is not a good idea to sign players to sit in the stand every week.A smaller squad bolstered by players who can step up from the u19s is the right idea.I believe most of the u19s are being retained.

IWasThere2016
03-05-2011, 08:26 PM
Wasnt it that they wanted to leave?

As an aside, and been pointed out already, for a "Golden" generation they've not exactly set the world on fire. Been dissapointing overall I might say.

Really?!? You saying you wouldn't have them back? Look at some of the replacements ..

GOC - Nish
KT - Rankin
Broon - Keenan
Sproule - O'Brien
Whittaker - Hart
Murphy - Grounds
Jones - Dickoh
Fletcher - Trakys

joebakerforever
03-05-2011, 08:36 PM
Prefer when we have decent players, we ensure they stay longer, rather than hawking them off asap.

Kaiser1962
03-05-2011, 09:09 PM
Really?!? You saying you wouldn't have them back? Look at some of the replacements ..

GOC - Nish
KT - Rankin
Broon - Keenan
Sproule - O'Brien
Whittaker - Hart
Murphy - Grounds
Jones - Dickoh
Fletcher - Trakys


Not what I said TQM.

Charge often levelled at the club is they have actively sold anybody of any worth. How many of those on the left wanted to stay? I would suggest Ivan maybe wasnt that keen to go but the others were desperate to leave.

I would add that I expected GOC, KT, Broon to have done much better than they have. I rate Fletch but he's about to be relegated for the 2nd time in as many years. Murph is in a side that could still go down, although they won the League Cup although Murphy didn't feature. Whittaker is doing ok at Rangers but no more than that. Jones side have been relegated and Jones loaned out despite being their record signing (unlucky with injuries though) and Ivan has been released.

Yes I would have them all back in a heartbeat,

dangermouse
04-05-2011, 08:37 AM
Good point. I don't think (m)any of us do. While I am equally as unhappy with the quality of football on display, I still think the club is taking the right approach. Slow and steady wins the race. That said I am now expecting BIG things from the Board over the next couple of years in terms of cash for players.


Does anyone seriously believe this will happen though? I just cant see it.

I agree with Hutchyhibby. The club are losing money hand over fist and only staying afloat through player sales. Non renewal of season tickets is only going to exacerbate the problem. If people think that now the infrastructure is in place the funds for the team will rocket they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Money can only be allocated to the team if we the fans supply it. Don't renew your season ticket then expect more of the same unless CC can work miracles.

Beefster
04-05-2011, 08:48 AM
Really?!? You saying you wouldn't have them back? Look at some of the replacements ..

GOC - Nish
KT - Rankin
Broon - Keenan
Sproule - O'Brien
Whittaker - Hart
Murphy - Grounds
Jones - Dickoh
Fletcher - Trakys

I don't believe that most of them were replacements. Some of them signed years after the folk that you're saying they replaced. A bit like saying that Dickoh replaced Sauzee.

smurf
04-05-2011, 08:55 AM
And the board are costing us how much as a % of Turnover?

mjhibby
04-05-2011, 09:06 AM
The board doesnt sign the players the managers do.Utd got good players from the lower divisions,killie who have a far smaller budget got erimenko and taoil in and well have done well with a few of their buys.Tony mowbray showed you can get decent players in at a reasonable price so its now over to cc to get the right players in.I do wish we wouldnt keep blaming the board.The manager gets the budget and its up to him how he spends it.

matty_f
04-05-2011, 09:58 AM
And the board are costing us how much as a % of Turnover?

Does the phrase "you get what you pay for" only apply to players or do we want a cheaper, poorer quality board? :dunno:

blackpoolhibs
04-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Given we are losing money now, how much more debt should the club be putting us in before they should be leaving?:confused:

Cropley10
04-05-2011, 11:03 AM
Does the phrase "you get what you pay for" only apply to players or do we want a cheaper, poorer quality board? :dunno:

We are very fortunate to be able to afford such a talented and well paid Board, IMHO...

aberhibsfc
04-05-2011, 11:12 AM
I'm not voting on this as the budget will be spent were necessary as CC sees fit via free's+wages and fee's+wages.

My understanding is that CC wants to operate with a smaller pool with better quality supported by players developed at the club.

I also understand that player movement (contracts ending with wages being freed up) this close season that CC would have around £2 Million to invest in playing staff. I hope we do see one or two prize signings but as lonf as the team is bolstered with a better calibre of player to that witnessed in the last two seasons I will be happier.

I hope he can dig out gems similar to that of Palsson, up and coming promising players wanting 1st team football and can bring some class to the team. Hopefully we can look to garner young players with real potential on decent length contracts, encourage them to blossom, do well for our club short term, begin a transition of better times and leave with our blessing courtesy of decent transfer fees.

If that's airy fairy bunkem don't worry, it's just my eutopia after all.

Albion Hibs
04-05-2011, 11:25 AM
I'm not voting on this as the budget will be spent were necessary as CC sees fit via free's+wages and fee's+wages.

My understanding is that CC wants to operate with a smaller pool with better quality supported by players developed at the club.

I also understand that player movement (contracts ending with wages being freed up) this close season that CC would have around £2 Million to invest in playing staff. I hope we do see one or two prize signings but as lonf as the team is bolstered with a better calibre of player to that witnessed in the last two seasons I will be happier.

I hope he can dig out gems similar to that of Palsson, up and coming promising players wanting 1st team football and can bring some class to the team. Hopefully we can look to garner young players with real potential on decent length contracts, encourage them to blossom, do well for our club short term, begin a transition of better times and leave with our blessing courtesy of decent transfer fees.

If that's airy fairy bunkem don't worry, it's just my eutopia after all.

I dont want anymore players like Palsson. I would prefer any incoming players to be more along the lines of Sodje - i.e. actually contribute to postive results.

I am sure CC will carve any budget well, using short contracts for older players with maybe slighly more money, and a few quid less for younger players that he thinks can become something.

IWasThere2016
04-05-2011, 11:38 AM
Charge often levelled at the club is they have actively sold anybody of any worth. How many of those on the left wanted to stay? I would suggest Ivan maybe wasnt that keen to go but the others were desperate to leave.

Yes - I am sure they were .. the point is take the car park and player sales away and there's not a lot left to differentiate us with the Arabs, Muthas, Killie etc. And we will need to same players sales again to address the £2m trading loss that a poor team = poor ST sales = poor attendances brings with it.


I don't believe that most of them were replacements. Some of them signed years after the folk that you're saying they replaced. A bit like saying that Dickoh replaced Sauzee.

Agreed - but I am sure you were aware the point was the drastic drop in quality :wink:

bawheid
04-05-2011, 11:59 AM
And the board are costing us how much as a % of Turnover?

Ha! Surprised it took you until the thread was 225 posts long! :greengrin

smurf
04-05-2011, 12:01 PM
Ha! Surprised it took you until the thread was 225 posts long! :greengrin

Only asked a question?:wink:

smurf
04-05-2011, 12:05 PM
Does the phrase "you get what you pay for" only apply to players or do we want a cheaper, poorer quality board? :dunno:

Only asked the question...

If you are interested in answering questions though rather than answering a question with a question...:greengrin

Then just what is the % cost to our turnover and exactly what do we get ahead of cheaper and indeed more expensive boards as a % to Turnover?

I'm not saying that they are too expensive.

Just curious to opinions on them...

And i would really love to know how our actual wage bill compares to others on PLAYERS ONLY in the SPL.

down the slope
04-05-2011, 12:09 PM
And the board are costing us how much as a % of Turnover?

Watch out , the Uber fans will get ye ! , meanwhile we are doing fine , crowds are up , good league position , improvement year on year , good cup runs. I'm surprised anyone could question the board !.

Speedway
04-05-2011, 12:41 PM
Only asked a question?:wink:

Ultimately, I think that the board are cheap when compared to other similar options that are more expensive.

matty_f
04-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Only asked the question...

If you are interested in answering questions though rather than answering a question with a question...:greengrin

Then just what is the % cost to our turnover and exactly what do we get ahead of cheaper and indeed more expensive boards as a % to Turnover?

I'm not saying that they are too expensive.

Just curious to opinions on them...

And i would really love to know how our actual wage bill compares to others on PLAYERS ONLY in the SPL.

I don't know, is the answer from me.

Also, from historic threads on here I believe it's difficult to measure the comparable cost of our board against others because of how we account for them.

I suppose there is also a question as to what you're measuring success on, and which other clubs are appropriate to measure against.

By the way, you've answered a question with a question as well...:wink:

Cocaine&Caviar
04-05-2011, 01:26 PM
Really?!? You saying you wouldn't have them back? Look at some of the replacements ..

KT - Palsson
Broon - Miller
Sproule - Riordan
Jones - Bamba
Fletcher - Stokes



You could just as easily say the above, altohugh not immediate replacements, they filled the void of the said players as well as couldve been done within our level of club.

And when GOC left, we have Killen, a more than adequate replacement, its the replacement of the latter than has failed to emerge.

Although some have left, the board needs at least a summer to replace such assets.

Overall, the only transfers that have been discussed but failed to occur that im dissapointed with are Hammell, Griffiths, and Webster...

Cropley10
04-05-2011, 03:57 PM
I'm not voting on this as the budget will be spent were necessary as CC sees fit via free's+wages and fee's+wages.

My understanding is that CC wants to operate with a smaller pool with better quality supported by players developed at the club.

I also understand that player movement (contracts ending with wages being freed up) this close season that CC would have around £2 Million to invest in playing staff. I hope we do see one or two prize signings but as lonf as the team is bolstered with a better calibre of player to that witnessed in the last two seasons I will be happier.

I hope he can dig out gems similar to that of Palsson, up and coming promising players wanting 1st team football and can bring some class to the team. Hopefully we can look to garner young players with real potential on decent length contracts, encourage them to blossom, do well for our club short term, begin a transition of better times and leave with our blessing courtesy of decent transfer fees.

If that's airy fairy bunkem don't worry, it's just my eutopia after all.

Palsson? I know form is temporary and class is permanent but how many decent games has he had? Shows how far we've come and what dross came before him IMHO.

Kaiser1962
04-05-2011, 04:09 PM
Ultimately, I think that the board are cheap when compared to other similar options that are more expensive.


Agreed

Arch Stanton
04-05-2011, 05:07 PM
And the board are costing us how much as a % of Turnover?

Our executive/managerial costs are on a par with other similar-sized clubs -

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?202230-Why-do-the-board-take-over-10-....&highlight=hagan

Do you not read the threads you contribute to?

.

smurf
06-05-2011, 01:04 PM
Our executive/managerial costs are on a par with other similar-sized clubs -

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?202230-Why-do-the-board-take-over-10-....&highlight=hagan

Do you not read the threads you contribute to?

.

Lot of sensitivity when it comes to discussing the board of our club.

Obviously.

Arch Stanton
06-05-2011, 04:32 PM
Lot of sensitivity when it comes to discussing the board of our club.

Obviously.

It's nice that you recognise I am a very sensitive person however, there have been many excellent posts explaining about boards and finance and stuff - it's just a shame that people can't, or won't, understand them.

Bottom line is that no amount of wishful thinking or popular uprisings will change the board - it's just not how it works.

And "obviously"??? It certainly isn't obvious to me why you asked a question on this thread that was answered in the thread I linked back to.

Ants
06-05-2011, 07:37 PM
The ultimate answer will be in the number of season tickets sold.

If the fans have the confidence in the board, sales will be on a par with last season or even up.

If there is no confidence, sales will be down, I suspect this will be the case.

new malkyhib
15-05-2011, 11:09 PM
Do we need a new hand on the tiller at ER to push us on?

matty_f
15-05-2011, 11:16 PM
Definitely.

matty_f
15-05-2011, 11:22 PM
Sorry, I misread the question, I thought at first it was "Are you bored to death with this debate which comes up relentlessly with the folk asking the questions refusing point blank to concede any ground on them thus rendering the initial question redundant".

My bad.

I'm looking forward to reading the new and exciting points that this particular debate throws up every single time it's raised every other day.

Removed
15-05-2011, 11:23 PM
Sorry, I misread the question, I thought at first it was "Are you bored to death with this debate which comes up relentlessly with the folk asking the questions refusing point blank to concede any ground on them thus rendering the initial question redundant".

My bad.

I'm looking forward to reading the new and exciting points that this particular debate throws up every single time it's raised every other day.

Are you on the payroll as well :wink:

Was shocked when I saw your first post though. Defo a Back Four :slipper: moment :greengrin

new malkyhib
15-05-2011, 11:24 PM
Sorry, I misread the question, I thought at first it was "Are you bored to death with this debate which comes up relentlessly with the folk asking the questions refusing point blank to concede any ground on them thus rendering the initial question redundant".

My bad.

I'm looking forward to reading the new and exciting points that this particular debate throws up every single time it's raised every other day.

You're reading too much into the question, mehtinks.

matty_f
15-05-2011, 11:26 PM
Are you on the payroll as well :wink:

Was shocked when I saw your first post though. Defo a Back Four :slipper: moment :greengrin

Obviously.:agree:


You're reading too much into the question, mehtinks.

I very much doubt it. Particularly as about 14 of your last 20 posts have been having a go at either Petrie or folk who don't turn red with rage whenever they hear his name.