Bin Laden dead (merged)

[Hibbie_Cameron]

Bin Laden is dead.

Obama to speak in next 5 mins!!

[Hibbie_Cameron]

Bin Laden is dead, killed last week by a US bomb but they have been awaiting DNA results to confirm Bin Laden.

Newscasters on fox news danicng with joy

[Ed De Gramo]

he's deed, he's deed, he's deed, he's deed :agree:

[McHibby]

Crazy. I didn't think they'd ever catch him to be honest. I guess Obama has just sealed the next election :greengrin

[CA Hibby]

Only took 10 years but at least they got the animal

[McHibby]

Hopefully this will be a massive psychological blow to al Qaeda.

[aussie_hibee]

Delighted.
USA USA USA

[Wembley67]

Great news but will he now be seen as a martyr and things now intensify?!?!

[Betty Boop]

Ha ha ! Is this the end of the 'War on Terror' ? :rolleyes:

[hibiedude]

Delighted but Al Qaeda won't stop there attacks but will almost certainly up their campainge around the world.

Pictures of a dead Bin Laden shown on skynews with a bullet hole in his head.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Whilst this is a historic day and one less murderer is the world. I feel America will milk this. In Obama's (the US one) address to his nation and the world it was all about the US and how the US killed Bin Laden. Let's not forget the men and women from the UK and other allied countries that have died in the war against terror and in the hunt for Bin Laden over the last 10years. Yes Weldone USA but let's respect all that have fallen.

[lucky]

Whilst he was a terrorist there is something wrong about the usa killing a person in Pakistan. Arrest yes, but is this not state sponsored killing?

[PeeJay]

Whilst he was a terrorist there is something wrong about the usa killing a person in Pakistan. Arrest yes, but is this not state sponsored killing?

Sure if it was "any" old person, BUT not this particular person IMO - good riddance to him. As to "arrest" I doubt he was prepared to come quietly.

[Beefster]

Whilst he was a terrorist there is something wrong about the usa killing a person in Pakistan. Arrest yes, but is this not state sponsored killing?

The stated intention has always been his assassination AFAIK.

As far as I'm concerned - happy days. The man is responsible for a lot more than just 9/11 and deserved to die. The only problem is that this would have dealt a much bigger blow to Al Qaeda if they had managed to get him 8 or 9 years ago. In the meantime, he's had plenty of time to further decentralise the organisation.

I'm assuming that we can expect something major to be attempted in the coming weeks and months by them now too.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Whilst he was a terrorist there is something wrong about the usa killing a person in Pakistan. Arrest yes, but is this not state sponsored killing?

You really believe the US or Allied force could just walking into this villa and say, sorry old fella your under arrest!!!

it is being stated he was asked to surrender and gave the right up, most probably tried to shot or escape and was shot.

i doubt very much it was a state sponsored killing, but thats just my opinion.

[lucky]

I'm glad that he is not on this planet no more but assassination of any one is wrong.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Bin Ladwn died when he joined the army.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I wonder if rhey'll bury him next to Lee Harvey Oswald.

[HH81]

Why throw his body in the sea so quick?

[H18sry]

Why throw his body in the sea so quick?

It will stop the martyrdom funeral, and all that goes with it :agree:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm glad that he is not on this planet no more but assassination of any one is wrong.

Surely the world isnt as black and white as that though - was it wrong of Hitler's Generals to try and assasinate him?

State-sponsored killinh happens all the time, this is just a more targeted method that is less likely to cause unintended civilian casualties. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why throw his body in the sea so quick?

Yeah i think it might have something to do with Islamic burial tradition, you have to be buried as quickly as possible or something like that?

Also i suppose it disposes of the problem of what to do with the body - Osama sleeps with the fishes:greengrin

[PeeJay]

Why throw his body in the sea so quick?

BBC saying muslims are required to be buried within 24 hours of death.

[lucky]

Islam dictates you must be buried within 24 hours so the USA have buried him under Islamic laws

[R'Albin]

I'm glad that he is not on this planet no more
but assassination of any one is wrong.

But had he not been assassinated then he would no doubt have killed more people, and as someone else said that will be a massive psychological blow to al qaeda. Surely there is some exceptions?

[Woody1985]

Major piece of news which will only intensify things I think.

It's amazing how stock markets can jump or fall based on a single persons death.

I liked how the American's implied that the never told the Pakistani government about this one and they finally got him.

[lapsedhibee]

Yeah i think it might have something to do with Islamic burial tradition, you have to be buried as quickly as possible or something like that?

Also i suppose it disposes of the problem of what to do with the body - Obama sleeps with the fishes:greengrin

Live by the sword, fly with the crows, sleep with the fishes. :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

I wonder if rhey'll bury him next to Lee Harvey Oswald.

The cover story is that he's had to be thrown in the sea to comply with Islamic tradition, but how convenient is it that no-one will now be able to check whether his brain is missing?

[Barney McGrew]

Where he's been hiding out is going to mean there will be a load of questions asked of the Pakistani security forces - only a hundred yards or so from one of their most prestigious military academies?

[IWasThere2016]

Where he's been hiding out is going to mean there will be a load of questions asked of the Pakistani security forces - only a hundred yards or so from one of their most prestigious military academies?

It was rather foolish to trust the Pakistani government on Osama IMHO. They had a vested interest in being allies with Afghanistan.

It is embarrassing for the Pakistani government IMO - and the US will not forgive easily.

[Leicester Fan]

Happy days, one less evil ******* in the world.

[hibsbollah]

he's deed, he's deed, he's deed, he's deed :agree:

O-bin-laden, six feet under...

I doubt it will make any difference to world terrorist activity. In fact it may even increase as the net-organised jihadists show they still have the means. Fundamentalist islamism is not dependent on one man.

[ArabHibee]

Why throw his body in the sea so quick?

Have they though? Or are they just saying this and his body is being dissected as we speak? We'll never know.

[Hillsidehibby]

O-bin-laden, six feet under...

I doubt it will make any difference to world terrorist activity. In fact it may even increase as the net-organised jihadists show they still have the means. Fundamentalist islamism is not dependent on one man.

Totally agree.

I'm still glad he is dead though.

[Onceinawhile]

Strange for the USA to execute one of their own agents.

Fully expecting the world to got crazy over the next few weeks.

[Pretty Boy]

It is generally accepted that in Afghanistan there has been around 2000 civilian deaths a year for the last 10 years. It's hard to comprehend that contrary to the words of Messrs Bush and Blair this was nothing more than a revenge attack to find one man. So the horrific death toll of 3000 deaths in New York and Washington DC has now multiplied into 20 000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan.

Add to that the deaths of hundreds of British and American military personnel, most of them from junior ranks. The US now measures the cost of the war in trillions whilst we brits measure it in billions. The fact that Bin ladens influence and command within Al Qaeda was lessened considerably years ago so we have essentially created a martyr who will inspire violence in his name rather than ordering it.

Still i'm sure all this death and destruction won't have any long term repercussions. You'll have to forgive me for not jumping for joy.

[HH81]

Has there been any proof he is dead? not seen any pictures or vids on him. :confused:

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Has there been any proof he is dead? not seen any pictures or vids on him. :confused:

this picture has made a few tabloids.

WARNING< a tad graphic.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/9/osama_bin_laden_dead0001_66.jpg

[lapsedhibee]

Has there been any proof he is dead? not seen any pictures or vids on him. :confused:

Also, very little information on who is now the world's most hated man. :confused:

And whereabout AO'B is on that list (though logically he must have moved up one place).

[Phil D. Rolls]

Peace, bread, land.

[heretoday]

Great news.

Does this mean we can bring our troops home to defend this country instead of getting shot at and blown up in a desert thousands of miles away?

Nope. Didn't think so.....

[Phil D. Rolls]

Other breaking news, Tooth Fairy's secret lair discovered, sky not falling, massive hole in finances not real.

All on Sky News now.

[Pretty Boy]

Great news.

Does this mean we can bring our troops home to defend this country instead of getting shot at and blown up in a desert thousands of miles away?

Nope. Didn't think so.....

We can send them on to liberate people living under corrupt and murderous regimes elsewhere. Just like we did in Rwanda, Darfur, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe.........

[Keith_M]

Does this mean the world's most evil man is dead or is Donald Rumsfeld actually still alive?

[BEEJ]

I'm assuming that we can expect something major to be attempted in the coming weeks and months by them now too.
:agree:

I don't think our American friends are doing themselves any favours being filmed out on the streets in great numbers in raucous celebration at the news. They're only making themselves the favourites for reprisals.

Quiet, understated satisfaction and reflection might have been a better reaction. But that wouldn't make good news footage.

[easty]

It's all a big cover up so that we don't notice Bin Laden was actually at the Royal Wedding over the weekend.

Intelligence agencies hoped at first we wouldn't notice as we were all too busy looking at Pippa Middletons ass to see past her, where Bin Laden could be seen taking photos of the infrastructure in the background. I wonder who invited him?

[Sir David Gray]

Absolutely delighted with this news, although I hope no-one's getting carried away.

Although the death of Osama Bin Laden is an extremely symbolic event, the ideology of Islamic terrorism will not be so easily killed off.

There are many millions of people, right across the globe, who remain absolutely committed to the aims of al-Qaeda and, if anything, the loss of their iconic leader will only toughen their stance against the USA and their allies and make them even more determined to attack them.

It's a great day for America though and almost 10 years after the worst terrorist attack the world has ever seen, the families of the 3,000 people who perished on that September morning finally have a degree of justice. Nothing can ever make up for the pain of losing them in such awful circumstances but at least their friends and family now know that the man in charge of the organisation who planned, organised and carried out those attacks on New York and Washington D.C. can never hurt their country again.

This will come as a major coup for President Obama, who was beginning to struggle in the polls. This successful operation has come on his watch as Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces and it should give him a massive boost.

A lot of people, including some on here, questioned America's continued operation to locate and apprehend Bin Laden because he had apparently been dead for years. I think this has vindicated their actions over the past few years. They obviously had intelligence on Bin Laden's whereabouts and their efforts have now been rewarded with the ultimate prize.

I also think that there are major questions that must be asked of the Pakistanis here. Bin Laden was located in an area that was just 200 metres from Pakistan's main military base and only about 60 miles from the country's capital city - Islamabad.

It's been reported that the Americans have known of his location since last August. How can he have been there for at least the past nine months, so close to a major base for Pakistan's military, without the authorities detecting anything?

Personally, I find that very strange.

Anyway, today is a cause for celebration and I think there's even more of a reason to celebrate this occasion than the Royal Wedding last week.

Bin Laden and his supporters probably believe that he's become a martyr for his cause after all this and that he's now entered Paradise to receive his 72 virgins.

Instead, one of the most evil men on the face of the planet has been taken out of the equation and I sincerely hope that he rots in Hell. :bye:

[EskbankHibby]

:agree:

I don't think our American friends are doing themselves any favours being filmed out on the streets in great numbers in raucous celebration at the news. They're only making themselves the favourites for reprisals.

Quiet, understated satisfaction and reflection might have been a better reaction. But that wouldn't make good news footage.

In complete agreement with you here, i find all this triumphalism a bit distasteful.

[ac1]

If Bush & Blair are next maybe I will head out on the street to celebrate!

What poor country are we going to hit next on the 'War on Terror'? :rolleyes:

[PeeJay]

this picture has made a few tabloids.

WARNING< a tad graphic.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/9/osama_bin_laden_dead0001_66.jpg

"Der Spiegel" claiming that this is a manipulated photo, based on a combination of Bin Laden and a corpse - six month old falsificiation!
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/0,1518,760104,00.html

[Woody1985]

:agree:

I don't think our American friends are doing themselves any favours being filmed out on the streets in great numbers in raucous celebration at the news. They're only making themselves the favourites for reprisals.

Quiet, understated satisfaction and reflection might have been a better reaction. But that wouldn't make good news footage.

Like our Muslim friends who celebrated by burning American flags etc when the twin towers were brought down?

And who else could have been considered favourites given that it was their operation?

Do you think that the firefighters who lost friends and families in the 9/11 attacks should just sit and smirk quietly. It's easy to say you should keep your reaction quiet, at the end of the day though, that's just pandering to their 'enemy' if they did that.

This crap will be going on long after we're gone. Best get used to it.

[Pretty Boy]

Like our Muslim friends who celebrated by burning American flags etc when the twin towers were brought down?

And who else could have been considered favourites given that it was their operation?

Do you think that the firefighters who lost friends and families in the 9/11 attacks should just sit and smirk quietly. It's easy to say you should keep your reaction quiet, at the end of the day though, that's just pandering to their 'enemy' if they did that.

This crap will be going on long after we're gone. Best get used to it.


The war to kill Bin Laden had led to over 20 000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan alone, thats before attacks on wedding parties in Pakistan are taken into account. Do you not think the families of these innocent victims might find the celebrations every bit as distasteful as the people of New York found the reaction of some to 9/11?

[ac1]

Like our Muslim friends who celebrated by burning American flags etc when the twin towers were brought down?

And who else could have been considered favourites given that it was their operation?

Do you think that the firefighters who lost friends and families in the 9/11 attacks should just sit and smirk quietly. It's easy to say you should keep your reaction quiet, at the end of the day though, that's just pandering to their 'enemy' if they did that.

This crap will be going on long after we're gone. Best get used to it.


:rolleyes:

Hermann Goering said -

'
“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”


This has been going on for years and 9/11 has been used for years for two wars, thousands of deaths and countless personal freedoms being taken away by our goverments. What happened on 9/11 was very very wrong and if Bin Laden was responsible then he has paid for it now but I worry what is next in this 'War on Terror'. Already Britain has been put on a 'High Alert' and I wonder what is around the corner - Libya? Iran?

[hibiedude]

The death of Bin Laden changes nothing but it's one less mad dog to worry about

the before and after picture of Bin Laden

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2011/05/fake-osama.jpg

[MrSmith]

You know a lot of things surprise me but to give credit to the Americans is just unbelievable!

Lest we forget the Americans trained him, supplied him with war weapons and vehicles to fight off the Russians. However, then he was known as a hero and freedom fighter for the people!

He was not responsible for 9/11 anyone who thinks this ought to go look more closely at the evidence for this extremely well executed plan supposedly organized by a man in a cave on dialysis!

I feel extremely sorry for all the brave servicemen who put their lives and risk and for those who have died in this war for oil.

It is not difficult to find the real criminals in this war however, if Bin Ladens death stops the mindless bombing of villages in Afghanistan killing families then good!

Again, lest we forget the millions of innocent people whose lives have been destroyed in Afghanistan and Iraq due to this war that was definitely NOT IN MY NAME!!

[hibiedude]

Security officials in US say's team's mission was kill Bin Laden NOT capture him.

Source Skynews :rolleyes:

[Hibs90]

9 years, 206 days
14,000 to 30,000 civilian deaths
2,355 Coalition deaths, 16,000 wounded
$455B spent on Afghanistan war efforts
$30B spent on contracts in Afghanistan
--------------------------------------------------
1 person found and killed

[Dashing Bob S]

It's being described as a 'death blow' to Al-Queida but it'll probably have the reverse effect as Osama was a pretty useless leader since 9-11, effectively under house arrest by his own people.

America and the west always like to propagate this idea of the charismatic 'bad barsteward' who then cons all those decent but gullible types into going along with them. The truth is that there's hundreds of nutters waiting to take his place, and provide some kind of demented leadership to those troubled young men who believe (rightly) that they are victims of western injustice.

I'm more worried about travel etc now, as I'm sure the new, emerging leadership will want to make a statement soon. Prepare for some atrocity followed by footage of dancing Muslim fundamentalists enjoying their own street party.

[Pretty Boy]

9 years, 206 days
14,000 to 30,000 civilian deaths
2,355 Coalition deaths, 16,000 wounded
$455B spent on Afghanistan war efforts
$30B spent on contracts in Afghanistan
--------------------------------------------------
1 person found and killed

:agree:

The irony is that after 2 wars, regime change in 2 countries ( ironicaly installing a leader in Afghanistan who retained power through electoral fraud ) and billions of pounds spent we are arguably less safe than when we started.

Did we ever find those pesky WMDs that could be utilised within 45 minutes by the way?

[Storar]

9 years, 206 days
14,000 to 30,000 civilian deaths
2,355 Coalition deaths, 16,000 wounded
$455B spent on Afghanistan war efforts
$30B spent on contracts in Afghanistan
--------------------------------------------------
1 person found and killed

Looks like you're suggesting that it wasn't worth it...

Use that stats however you like but you can guarantee that if you take away the $500bn spent on war and contracts in Afghanistan then the civilian death toll would have been a **** load higher.
This is fantastic news, well done to all involved.

[Woody1985]

The war to kill Bin Laden had led to over 20 000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan alone, thats before attacks on wedding parties in Pakistan are taken into account. Do you not think the families of these innocent victims might find the celebrations every bit as distasteful as the people of New York found the reaction of some to 9/11?

I'm sure they do but that really wasn't my point. My arguement applies to both sides equally who've felt like their on the losing side.

I don't think I articulated my point quite as well as I'd like to. What I was basically saying is that it's perpetual for both 'sides'.

I think when the level of emotions involved for some people that it's not really a possibility to sit and smirk quietly.

[BEEJ]

Like our Muslim friends who celebrated by burning American flags etc when the twin towers were brought down?
Indeed they did - and it was truly nauseating to behold at the time.

It would be good to aspire to higher standards of behaviour rather than to bring yourselves down to the gutter standards formerly exhibited by the other side.


Do you think that the firefighters who lost friends and families in the 9/11 attacks should just sit and smirk quietly. It's easy to say you should keep your reaction quiet, at the end of the day though, that's just pandering to their 'enemy' if they did that.
Utter nonsense. The victory is yours and 'the enemy' knows that full well. They don't need to witness public celebration to have it confirmed.

But rub their noses in it and how do you think they are likely to respond? With every fibre of their being what will they want to go and do now as a matter of priority?

This tendency towards the GIRUY reaction to such developments will only serve to escalate the conflict to ever higher levels of atrocity and barbarism.

[Onceinawhile]

Looks like you're suggesting that it wasn't worth it...

Use that stats however you like but you can guarantee that if you take away the $500bn spent on war and contracts in Afghanistan then the civilian death toll would have been a **** load higher.
This is fantastic news, well done to all involved.

How can you guarantee it?

If we hadn't gone to war in Afghanistan are you really suggesting that more than 14,000 -30,000 people would have died in terrorist attacks?

[Woody1985]

:rolleyes:

Hermann Goering said -

'
“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”


This has been going on for years and 9/11 has been used for years for two wars, thousands of deaths and countless personal freedoms being taken away by our goverments. What happened on 9/11 was very very wrong and if Bin Laden was responsible then he has paid for it now but I worry what is next in this 'War on Terror'. Already Britain has been put on a 'High Alert' and I wonder what is around the corner - Libya? Iran?

I'm not saying that using 9/11 is an excuse or a cop out, just that no matter who is in charge of countries (UK/US and some middle eastern countries) I don't expect anything to change and don't believe there is anything voters can do will change anything.

[One Day Soon]

Sends a very clear message to his successors and others in the future. You're not untouchable.

[easty]

How can you guarantee it?

If we hadn't gone to war in Afghanistan are you really suggesting that more than 14,000 -30,000 people would have died in terrorist attacks?

Nothing is certain. But, if we hadn't gone after Bin Laden when we knew he was behind 9/11 then I'm in little doubt a lot more people would have died in further terrorist atrocities.

He was never going to be easy to find, but we had to go after him. You can't be suggesting otherwise, can you?

[One Day Soon]

It is generally accepted that in Afghanistan there has been around 2000 civilian deaths a year for the last 10 years. It's hard to comprehend that contrary to the words of Messrs Bush and Blair this was nothing more than a revenge attack to find one man. So the horrific death toll of 3000 deaths in New York and Washington DC has now multiplied into 20 000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan.

Add to that the deaths of hundreds of British and American military personnel, most of them from junior ranks. The US now measures the cost of the war in trillions whilst we brits measure it in billions. The fact that Bin ladens influence and command within Al Qaeda was lessened considerably years ago so we have essentially created a martyr who will inspire violence in his name rather than ordering it.

Still i'm sure all this death and destruction won't have any long term repercussions. You'll have to forgive me for not jumping for joy.


Do you have any evidence for that statement or is it just an assertion?

You believe the Iraq war was for oil and the Afghan war to find bin Laden?

[Gatecrasher]

Mon the yanks

[Woody1985]

Indeed they did - and it was truly nauseating to behold at the time.

It would be good to aspire to higher standards of behaviour rather than to bring yourselves down to the gutter standards formerly exhibited by the other side.


Utter nonsense. The victory is yours and 'the enemy' knows that full well. They don't need to witness public celebration to have it confirmed.

But rub their noses in it and how do you think they are likely to respond? With every fibre of their being what will they want to go and do now as a matter of priority?

This tendency towards the GIRUY reaction to such developments will only serve to escalate the conflict to ever higher levels of atrocity and barbarism.

I agree that it's not the best thing to be doing on public and on news channels all over the world but I can certainly understand why.

I also agree that I think things will intensify as a whole now, as mentioned on my first post on the thread.

As for the GIRUY's, I didn't really want to bring sport into this but if you put it in context it's almost like sitting on your hands with a wry smile after Hibs have just scored a 90th minute derby winner after they did the same to us the previous (hypothetical) season .

As I say, take that comment in context and it's the same thing. People's emotions with generally override any rational thought. Take a derby for example, it's oneupmanship in the main, and the same applies here (but the stakes are a lot higher) and that's why this will rumble on and on long after we're gone.

[Pretty Boy]

Do you have any evidence for that statement or is it just an assertion?

You believe the Iraq war was for oil and the Afghan war to find bin Laden?

An assertion as i reckon it's fair to say evidence won't be easy to come by unless certain individuals have a change of heart and publicly acknowledge that there were ulterior motives for the war.

Afghanistan had been ruled by the Taliban for several years prior to 2001 and there had been little if any desire expressed by the US or UK to bring about a change of regime. There was probably a certain level of embarassment from the US given the Taliban had evolved out of various groups including the Mujihadeen who had been armed by the US to aid their fight against the Soviets. The US has shown a willingness to turn a blind eye to a lack of human right, murder, opression etc etc when it suits them see Saudi Arabia, China, Egypt, Iraq pre 1990. Suddenly after 9/11 it is the express desire to bring about democracy and freedom to Afghanistan. 10 years on we have a puppet government guilty of electoral fraud, an 'enemy' as resolute as ever and no sign of the war ending. So did the US and Uk plan regime change in Afghanistan for many years or was it, as i suggested, something of a revenge attack to find key men and one man in particular.

Iraq is similar, the US was quite happy to trade arms with Saddam Hussein, they backed him in his war with Iran and Mr Rumsfeld was only to happy to pose for the cameras with a stupid grin on his face. There was a perfect chance to remove Hussein from power in the early 90s but for whatever reason this chance wasn't taken. Fast forward to 2003 and murky talk of WMDs emerges, WMDs that could be used against us within 45 minutes no less. Dr David Kelly breaks rank and tells us that the dossier was 'sexed up' and the WMD threat was not as likely as suggested, he winds up dead in deserted woodland in England. Suddenly the war was about regime change all along and according to Mr Bush it was mission accomplished almost 8 years ago now.

I think i'll stick with my beliefs that revenge and oil were key motivating factors.

[hibsbollah]

It's being described as a 'death blow' to Al-Queida but it'll probably have the reverse effect as Osama was a pretty useless leader since 9-11, effectively under house arrest by his own people.

America and the west always like to propagate this idea of the charismatic 'bad barsteward' who then cons all those decent but gullible types into going along with them. The truth is that there's hundreds of nutters waiting to take his place, and provide some kind of demented leadership to those troubled young men who believe (rightly) that they are victims of western injustice.

I'm more worried about travel etc now, as I'm sure the new, emerging leadership will want to make a statement soon. Prepare for some atrocity followed by footage of dancing Muslim fundamentalists enjoying their own street party.

As far as ive heard from various middleeast based correspondents today, there has been no mourning parties or displays of public anger to be seen anywhere. Al Qaeda and its warped wahhabiism is very much a minority across the Islamic world.

I suspect that western security forces will have quietly increased their alert levels as a result of this.

[Pretty Boy]

Nothing is certain. But, if we hadn't gone after Bin Laden when we knew he was behind 9/11 then I'm in little doubt a lot more people would have died in further terrorist atrocities.

He was never going to be easy to find, but we had to go after him. You can't be suggesting otherwise, can you?

What exactly is acheived by killing Bin laden though? Other than him being dead.

Al Qaeda isn't one man, power has been de centralised for many years now and they operate a cell structure. Add to this the many other Jihadist groups that don't fall under the Al Qaeda umberella and i'm not convinced we are any safer or better off today than we were yesterday, last month or 10 years ago.

As for more people dying in terrorist attrocities had we not went to war in Afghanistan or Iraq. Would 7/7 have happened had Britain not been involved in these wars? Bali? various attacks on Uk and US embassies around the world? IMO these wars have fuelled the flames of the hatred far more than a more measured response may have. This is before we even take into account the death toll of military personnel and Afghan and Pakistani civilians which runs to the tens of thousands. No doubt this will be dismissed as being collateral damage though.

I am not totally against a change of regime in Afghnistan but one of the main justifications for this war was that it would keep British, American and the the rest of the worlds citizens safe, we are no safer now than when these wars started. Secondly the hypocrisy is astounding. There are far worse regimes than the Taliban that we have chose to at best turn a blind eye to, see Sudan, Zimbabwe or at worst got into bed with, see Saudi Arabia ( one of the most despicable regimes in the world ).

[One Day Soon]

An assertion as i reckon it's fair to say evidence won't be easy to come by unless certain individuals have a change of heart and publicly acknowledge that there were ulterior motives for the war.

Afghanistan had been ruled by the Taliban for several years prior to 2001 and there had been little if any desire expressed by the US or UK to bring about a change of regime. There was probably a certain level of embarassment from the US given the Taliban had evolved out of various groups including the Mujihadeen who had been armed by the US to aid their fight against the Soviets. The US has shown a willingness to turn a blind eye to a lack of human right, murder, opression etc etc when it suits them see Saudi Arabia, China, Egypt, Iraq pre 1990. Suddenly after 9/11 it is the express desire to bring about democracy and freedom to Afghanistan. 10 years on we have a puppet government guilty of electoral fraud, an 'enemy' as resolute as ever and no sign of the war ending. So did the US and Uk plan regime change in Afghanistan for many years or was it, as i suggested, something of a revenge attack to find key men and one man in particular.

Iraq is similar, the US was quite happy to trade arms with Saddam Hussein, they backed him in his war with Iran and Mr Rumsfeld was only to happy to pose for the cameras with a stupid grin on his face. There was a perfect chance to remove Hussein from power in the early 90s but for whatever reason this chance wasn't taken. Fast forward to 2003 and murky talk of WMDs emerges, WMDs that could be used against us within 45 minutes no less. Dr David Kelly breaks rank and tells us that the dossier was 'sexed up' and the WMD threat was not as likely as suggested, he winds up dead in deserted woodland in England. Suddenly the war was about regime change all along and according to Mr Bush it was mission accomplished almost 8 years ago now.

I think i'll stick with my beliefs that revenge and oil were key motivating factors.

So I think having read all that your answer is 'no' you don't have any evidence.

You state that "There was a perfect chance to remove Hussein from power in the early 90s but for whatever reason this chance wasn't taken." Surely your own analysis, if correct, would mean that these oil-obsessed western powers would have gone right ahead and taken him out? That they did not is both unfortunate for everyone and undermines your whole argument.

I think your Afghanistan argument is just bizarre. Still, if you are right there will be troop ships and transport planes returning with all the troops over the next few weeks now that the 'real' reason for going in has been accomplished.

Perish the thought that targeting one of the worst training grounds for terrorists might have been the reason for trying to promote stability and order in Aghanistan. It would all have been so much better if the place had been left to the Taliban, instead of promoting interfering western ideas like allowing women to be educated.

[One Day Soon]

What exactly is acheived by killing Bin laden though? Other than him being dead.

Al Qaeda isn't one man, power has been de centralised for many years now and they operate a cell structure. Add to this the many other Jihadist groups that don't fall under the Al Qaeda umberella and i'm not convinced we are any safer or better off today than we were yesterday, last month or 10 years ago.

As for more people dying in terrorist attrocities had we not went to war in Afghanistan or Iraq. Would 7/7 have happened had Britain not been involved in these wars? Bali? various attacks on Uk and US embassies around the world? IMO these wars have fuelled the flames of the hatred far more than a more measured response may have. This is before we even take into account the death toll of military personnel and Afghan and Pakistani civilians which runs to the tens of thousands. No doubt this will be dismissed as being collateral damage though.

I am not totally against a change of regime in Afghnistan but one of the main justifications for this war was that it would keep British, American and the the rest of the worlds citizens safe, we are no safer now than when these wars started. Secondly the hypocrisy is astounding. There are far worse regimes than the Taliban that we have chose to at best turn a blind eye to, see Sudan, Zimbabwe or at worst got into bed with, see Saudi Arabia ( one of the most despicable regimes in the world ).

Yes, your argument makes the case for intervening in more places around the world. Given the feeble incapacity of the UN to do anything useful, unilateral action looks just about the only way forward.

[easty]

What exactly is acheived by killing Bin laden though? Other than him being dead.

Al Qaeda isn't one man, power has been de centralised for many years now and they operate a cell structure. Add to this the many other Jihadist groups that don't fall under the Al Qaeda umberella and i'm not convinced we are any safer or better off today than we were yesterday, last month or 10 years ago.

As for more people dying in terrorist attrocities had we not went to war in Afghanistan or Iraq. Would 7/7 have happened had Britain not been involved in these wars? Bali? various attacks on Uk and US embassies around the world? IMO these wars have fuelled the flames of the hatred far more than a more measured response may have. This is before we even take into account the death toll of military personnel and Afghan and Pakistani civilians which runs to the tens of thousands. No doubt this will be dismissed as being collateral damage though.

I am not totally against a change of regime in Afghnistan but one of the main justifications for this war was that it would keep British, American and the the rest of the worlds citizens safe, we are no safer now than when these wars started. Secondly the hypocrisy is astounding. There are far worse regimes than the Taliban that we have chose to at best turn a blind eye to, see Sudan, Zimbabwe or at worst got into bed with, see Saudi Arabia ( one of the most despicable regimes in the world ).

The bit in bold...yes, for sure, I think they would still have happened. Those exact incidents, you couldn't be sure, but comparative ones certainly. In my opinion there would have been these, comparative, incidents plus many more. By choosing not to begin a 'war on terror' those on the other side, Al Qaeda, wouldn't have let up and decided against further attacks, they'd have continued, perhaps escalated the attacks.

If you were George Bush (I know it's a horrendous thought but go with me on this...) would you have decided to do something other than to go to war after 9/11? Alterior motives aside, that one act had only one possible repurcussion.

I agree with a lot of what you've posted, the part about the hypocrisy especially. But we both know, and I'm sure you'll agree, that hypocrisy is not going to change, not in our lifetime. Ever?

[Pretty Boy]

So I think having read all that your answer is 'no' you don't have any evidence.

You state that "There was a perfect chance to remove Hussein from power in the early 90s but for whatever reason this chance wasn't taken." Surely your own analysis, if correct, would mean that these oil-obsessed western powers would have gone right ahead and taken him out? That they did not is both unfortunate for everyone and undermines your whole argument.

I think your Afghanistan argument is just bizarre. Still, if you are right there will be troop ships and transport planes returning with all the troops over the next few weeks now that the 'real' reason for going in has been accomplished.

Perish the thought that targeting one of the worst training grounds for terrorists might have been the reason for trying to promote stability and order in Aghanistan. It would all have been so much better if the place had been left to the Taliban, instead of promoting interfering western ideas like allowing women to be educated.

Of course i have no evidence, Wikileaks and the Iraq Enquiry showed us just how little the governments want us to know.

Why Saddam Hussein wasn't removed in the early 90s i have no idea, better the devil you know perhaps? What mystifies me is why 2003 was decided as being the right time to do the job as it were. The WMDs was a red herring, the links to Islamic terrorism were just plain bizarre given the Ba'ath party operated on a secular basis, although admittedly with an 'Arab nationalist' belief at it's core.

As for troops leaving Afghanistan. This would not surprise me one little bit, maybe not in weeks but within months and the next couple of years. One of Barack Obama's key election promises was phased withdrawal from both Iraq and Afghanistan. It may be a case of a realisation that bringing real stability to a country that has resisted foreign powers throughout history was misguided. Bin Laden is dead, Al Qaeda is weakened, job done. I wasn't and am not against a change of regime in Afghanistan, the Taliban was a despicabe ruling power but the way in which it was gone about doesn't strike me as being totally honest.

As for the part about educationg women and destroying training grounds for terror, i trust an invasion of Saudi Arabia is just around the corner then or are they just a bit too willing to play ball?

[Pretty Boy]

Yes, your argument makes the case for intervening in more places around the world. Given the feeble incapacity of the UN to do anything useful, unilateral action looks just about the only way forward.

Exactly, which begs the question why we chose to get involved in those places that we did.

We seem to have picked a couple of targets and developed reasons for being there yet we choose to ignore comparable and, in some cases, worse abuses elsewhere.

[Onceinawhile]

Nothing is certain. But, if we hadn't gone after Bin Laden when we knew he was behind 9/11 then I'm in little doubt a lot more people would have died in further terrorist atrocities.

He was never going to be easy to find, but we had to go after him. You can't be suggesting otherwise, can you?

I'm not so sure about your first paragraph. 20,000 plus civilians have died because of the reaction to 9/11. That's more than 6 times the amount that died then. Are you suggesting that in 10 years we would have seen 7 attacks on the scale of the 9/11 atrocities?

If that's not what your suggesting then the USA and UK have been responsible for more deaths than bin laden would have been. This surely makes those two governments far worse? especially when one of them trained and armed bin laden in the first place!

Was there options other than waging all out war? I would imagine so. What about bringing him to justice through the courts?

[One Day Soon]

Exactly, which begs the question why we chose to get involved in those places that we did.

We seem to have picked a couple of targets and developed reasons for being there yet we choose to ignore comparable and, in some cases, worse abuses elsewhere.

Iraq: Because Saddam Hussein was a deranged, megalomaniac, mass murderer making increasingly belligerent statements about taking out Israel and who had already walked into one sovereign state because he felt like grabbing their oil?

Afghanistan: Because it was/is the focal point for much of the training of terrorists directed at western countries?

Presumably you don't disagree with the principle of unilateral armed intervention?

[easty]

I'm not so sure about your first paragraph. 20,000 plus civilians have died because of the reaction to 9/11. That's more than 6 times the amount that died then. Are you suggesting that in 10 years we would have seen 7 attacks on the scale of the 9/11 atrocities?

If that's not what your suggesting then the USA and UK have been responsible for more deaths than bin laden would have been. This surely makes those two governments far worse? especially when one of them trained and armed bin laden in the first place!

Was there options other than waging all out war? I would imagine so. What about bringing him to justice through the courts?

It's not really what I was suggesting, I was trying to say we'd have had as many, if not more, deaths from terrorist attacks had we not started the 'war on terror'.

As for your last sentence.........I don't think we could have just sent out Dog the Bounty Hunter to go bring him in to face trial. From watching Crimewatch it seems we can't even get junkies who mug OAP's to turn up to court when they're meant to!

[One Day Soon]

I'm not so sure about your first paragraph. 20,000 plus civilians have died because of the reaction to 9/11. That's more than 6 times the amount that died then. Are you suggesting that in 10 years we would have seen 7 attacks on the scale of the 9/11 atrocities?

If that's not what your suggesting then the USA and UK have been responsible for more deaths than bin laden would have been. This surely makes those two governments far worse? especially when one of them trained and armed bin laden in the first place!

Was there options other than waging all out war? I would imagine so. What about bringing him to justice through the courts?

:faf: Genuinely the funniest thing I think I have ever read on this message board.

[SteveHFC]

Great Job USA

Hope the B****** rots in Hell!

[Onceinawhile]

:faf: Genuinely the funniest thing I think I have ever read on this message board.

Because following proper protocol is hilarious...
The point of trying to getting it to court would have allowed the blood lust to subside and wouldn't have forced bushs hand as much to get revenge. This would then have allowed the USA to maybe take stock and look at the reasons why the attacks took place and then attempt to rectify them rather than get involved in a war that has just increased the cycle of violence.
I'm not exactly expecting osama to turn up at the high court ffs!

[easty]

Because following proper protocol is hilarious...
The point of trying to getting it to court would have allowed the blood lust to subside and wouldn't have forced bushs hand as much to get revenge. This would then have allowed the USA to maybe take stock and look at the reasons why the attacks took place and then attempt to rectify them rather than get involved in a war that has just increased the cycle of violence.
I'm not exactly expecting osama to turn up at the high court ffs!

The American public wouldn't have accepted anything less than war. It wasn't Bush's revenge, it was Americas retaliation.

Imagine getting the letter saying you were on jury duty for the Osama Bin Laden trial, could you go into that with a neutral opinion? :greengrin

[Onceinawhile]

It's not really what I was suggesting, I was trying to say we'd have had as many, if not more, deaths from terrorist attacks had we not started the 'war on terror'.

As for your last sentence.........I don't think we could have just sent out Dog the Bounty Hunter to go bring him in to face trial. From watching Crimewatch it seems we can't even get junkies who mug OAP's to turn up to court when they're meant to!

but we would have had less deaths in total which is my point. The USA and UK led coalition is now responsible for more deaths than bin laden could ever have hoped to be. It doesn't matter if people die in a terrorist attack or in armed strikes, its still been a loss of human life.
So unless American or UK life takes precedence over Afghan life the coalition has achieved nothing other than death and destruction.

[hibsbollah]

So unless American or UK life takes precedence over Afghan life the coalition has achieved nothing other than death and destruction.

Of course it does. If US life =1 unit, European/other white life=5 units, Other life=50-175 depending on economic power/racial profile/alliances. It'll be a long time before that changes.

[SkintHibby]

Sends a very clear message to his successors and others in the future. You're not untouchable.

They tend to like to blow themselves up so I don't think bin Ladens death will serve as any deterrent.:rolleyes:

[Leicester Fan]

Well I'm happy the evil ****** is dead and if I was in America I'd be dancing in the street too. All this retaliation nonsense, like they weren't already planning more atrocities. Why the hell should we be dictated to by a bunch of bigots and fanatics.

[ac1]

No one doubting the whole 'burial at sea' story? Seems a bit strange to me.........

[Brando7]

i thought you couldn't take a bin out on a public holiday :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Well I'm happy the evil ****** is dead and if I was in America I'd be dancing in the street too. All this retaliation nonsense, like they weren't already planning more atrocities. Why the hell should we be dictated to by a bunch of bigots and fanatics.

Hey Leicester, for the first and possibly the last time you and me agree.

The planet's too small, resources too scarce, deranged extremists nutters too influential and humans too self interested for everything to always be settled nice and tickety boo with a wee chin wag. Armed conflict has always been with us and always will be to one extent or another. If western nations don't protect their own interests no-one else will do it for them. As governing systems go, liberal democracy does as good a job as any other in trying to balance self-interest with global realpolitik. It certainly works very hard to be tolerant and inclusive of all views, faiths and cultures.

He didn't accidentally cause two jumbo jets to fly into the twin towers and he wasn't interested in having his day in court.

[One Day Soon]

No one doubting the whole 'burial at sea' story? Seems a bit strange to me.........

No. You're letting your conspiracy theory genes kick in.

Bury him and you have a shrine. Put him in the sea and there's nowhere to gather.

[ac1]

No. You're letting your conspiracy theory genes kick in.

Bury him and you have a shrine. Put him in the sea and there's nowhere to gather.

Your probably right about the conspiracy theory genes! :greengrin I always felt there was more to the 9/11 story as well.

Just seems very convenient to me! I await the proof from Obama with interest haha

[Sir David Gray]

I've also had another thought about this.

I know the official line is that Obama phoned David Cameron a couple of hours before he made his announcement to the world to inform him of events, which is suggesting that Cameron knew nothing about the whole operation.

However, is it just me or does anyone else think that Britain has encouraged America to wait until yesterday before carrying out their operation to kill Bin Laden, so that the Royal Wedding was over and done with?

Can anyone imagine the security nightmare that would have developed at this wedding, if Bin Laden had been killed this time last week?

The CIA and other governments around the world are warning the public about the serious threat of reprisal attacks to avenge the killing of Bin Laden. What better reprisal attack than an attack on the Royal Family of one of their fiercest enemies?

[CropleyWasGod]

I've also had another thought about this.

I know the official line is that Obama phoned David Cameron a couple of hours before he made his announcement to the world to inform him of events, which is suggesting that Cameron knew nothing about the whole operation.

However, is it just me or does anyone else think that Britain has encouraged America to wait until yesterday before carrying out their operation to kill Bin Laden, so that the Royal Wedding was over and done with?

Can anyone imagine the security nightmare that would have developed at this wedding, if Bin Laden had been killed this time last week?

The CIA and other governments around the world are warning the public about the serious threat of reprisal attacks to avenge the killing of Bin Laden. What better reprisal attack than an attack on the Royal Family of one of their fiercest enemies?

I am sure I read that it all happened last week. In that case, your scenario is relevant... don't let the story out until the wedding is over.

[Dunbar Hibee]

I seriously doubt this. I don't think they have killed him or even found him.... IMO of course.

[Leicester Fan]

.

However, is it just me or does anyone else think that Britain has encouraged America to wait until yesterday before carrying out their operation to kill Bin Laden, so that the Royal Wedding was over and done with?



?

Apparently he was watching the football on Sunday when the yanks heard him shout "come on you gunners".

[Frazerbob]

They should have captured him and made him go through airport security all day, every day for the rest of his life!

[hibsbollah]

Karma for Bin Laden? You're confusing wahhabi islam with buddhism there, that would get right on his goat :-)

[One Day Soon]

I seriously doubt this. I don't think they have killed him or even found him.... IMO of course.

Why?

[heretoday]

Apparently he was watching the football on Sunday when the yanks heard him shout "come on you gunners".


Nah he was watching Hibs.

"For Allah's sake, can ye no' shoot straight?"

[Leicester Fan]

Elton John is to release a commemorative single in reaction to Osama's death. ...


Sandals In The Bin

[J-C]

Also the the Beatles song, " You've Got to Love your Hideaway "

[cabbageandribs1875]

rubbish joke




p.s. well done the yanks, one less terrorist for innocent men,women,and children to worry about

[CropleyWasGod]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
--Martin Luther King, Jr

[Whos-the-poster]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
--Martin Luther King, Jr

I was about to post this. :agree:

[Dunbar Hibee]

Why?

Just something very suspicious going on IMO. The burial doesn't make sense to me at all. Obama seems very strange about it too.

[Sir David Gray]

Just something very suspicious going on IMO. The burial doesn't make sense to me at all. Obama seems very strange about it too.

What doesn't make sense about the burial?

Islamic law dictates that the deceased person must be buried within 24 hours of their death and they could hardly bury him on land as his gravesight would be used as a shrine for every single Jihadist on the planet to pay homage to.

Cremation is also strictly forbidden in Islam.

[ArabHibee]

What doesn't make sense about the burial?

Islamic law dictates that the deceased person must be buried within 24 hours of their death and they could hardly bury him on land as his gravesight would be used as a shrine for every single Jihadist on the planet to pay homage to.

Cremation is also strictly forbidden in Islam.
As I've already said in a previous post this morning, no danger has his body been dumped in the sea, the Americans will still have a hold of it.

[CropleyWasGod]

As I've already said in a previous post this morning, no danger has his body been dumped in the sea, the Americans will still have a hold of it.

To what end?

[Sir David Gray]

As I've already said in a previous post this morning, no danger has his body been dumped in the sea, the Americans will still have a hold of it.

What are they going to do with it if they do have it?

Apparently, Saudi Arabia was asked to take his body but they refused to do so. There's no country on Earth that would accept his body on their soil.

Supposing the Americans take his body back to the USA, what would they do with it then? :confused:

[ArabHibee]

What are they going to do with it if they do have it?

Apparently, Saudi Arabia was asked to take his body but they refused to do so. There's no country on Earth that would accept his body on their soil.

Supposing the Americans take his body back to the USA, what would they do with it then? :confused:

Who knows? Dissect it? Take his brain out and run experiments on it? Who can tell? One things for sure, I don't believe everything I'm being told about this story. Propaganda is very much alive and kicking in the Western world.

[Removed]

Who knows? Dissect it? Take his brain out and run experiments on it? Who can tell? One things for sure, I don't believe everything I'm being told about this story. Propaganda is very much alive and kicking in the Western world.

I agree with the propaganda bit. At least with Saddam there was evidence that he was killed. It wasn't hard to find the video of his hanging on the internet. Have any official pictures been released of Bin Ladens corpse or him being buried at sea?

[LALthehibeeGAL]

Absolutely delighted with this news, although I hope no-one's getting carried away.

Although the death of Osama Bin Laden is an extremely symbolic event, the ideology of Islamic terrorism will not be so easily killed off.

There are many millions of people, right across the globe, who remain absolutely committed to the aims of al-Qaeda and, if anything, the loss of their iconic leader will only toughen their stance against the USA and their allies and make them even more determined to attack them.

It's a great day for America though and almost 10 years after the worst terrorist attack the world has ever seen, the families of the 3,000 people who perished on that September morning finally have a degree of justice. Nothing can ever make up for the pain of losing them in such awful circumstances but at least their friends and family now know that the man in charge of the organisation who planned, organised and carried out those attacks on New York and Washington D.C. can never hurt their country again.

This will come as a major coup for President Obama, who was beginning to struggle in the polls. This successful operation has come on his watch as Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces and it should give him a massive boost.

A lot of people, including some on here, questioned America's continued operation to locate and apprehend Bin Laden because he had apparently been dead for years. I think this has vindicated their actions over the past few years. They obviously had intelligence on Bin Laden's whereabouts and their efforts have now been rewarded with the ultimate prize.

I also think that there are major questions that must be asked of the Pakistanis here. Bin Laden was located in an area that was just 200 metres from Pakistan's main military base and only about 60 miles from the country's capital city - Islamabad.

It's been reported that the Americans have known of his location since last August. How can he have been there for at least the past nine months, so close to a major base for Pakistan's military, without the authorities detecting anything?

Personally, I find that very strange.

Anyway, today is a cause for celebration and I think there's even more of a reason to celebrate this occasion than the Royal Wedding last week.

Bin Laden and his supporters probably believe that he's become a martyr for his cause after all this and that he's now entered Paradise to receive his 72 virgins.

Instead, one of the most evil men on the face of the planet has been taken out of the equation and I sincerely hope that he rots in Hell. :bye:

couldnt put it better myself :agree::top marks
Lal:wink:

[Pretty Boy]

Who knows? Dissect it? Take his brain out and run experiments on it? Who can tell? One things for sure, I don't believe everything I'm being told about this story. Propaganda is very much alive and kicking in the Western world.

:agree:

Theres just something about his whole story that doesn't sit right with me.

What i find especially suspicous is the complete lack of denial anywhere from Al Qaeda. I've looked on Al Jazeera and elsewhere for any kind of response from them and bar one flimsy comment from a minor player about martyrdom there is nothing. Even if he was killed in the way reported i would still have expected an Al Qaeda denial, a video release of Bin Laden from an unconfirmed date, anything really but total silence? Doesn't seem right.

The whole picture being painted by the media of Bin Laden trying to hide behind a woman whilst a gun battle took place just seems a wee bit to imaginative for my liking.

[Sir David Gray]

:agree:

Theres just something about his whole story that doesn't sit right with me.

What i find especially suspicous is the complete lack of denial anywhere from Al Qaeda. I've looked on Al Jazeera and elsewhere for any kind of response from them and bar one flimsy comment from a minor player about martyrdom there is nothing. Even if he was killed in the way reported i would still have expected an Al Qaeda denial, a video release of Bin Laden from an unconfirmed date, anything really but total silence? Doesn't seem right.

The whole picture being painted by the media of Bin Laden trying to hide behind a woman whilst a gun battle took place just seems a wee bit to imaginative for my liking.

I don't think the idea of him using a woman as a human shield is too far-fetched to be honest.

It's a common tactic of Islamic terrorists to hide behind women and children when they are being targeted. Other members of al-Qaeda, The Taliban, Hamas and Hezbollah have all done it in the past so I don't think it's outwith the realms of possibilities that he hid behind a woman as the Americans stormed in.

The people who lead these organisations are great at saying all the right things about brainwashing people into fighting Jihad, telling them to never surrender etc etc and to be brave as they will achieve martyrdom.

When it comes to it and they are the ones faced with a decision, they never practice what they preach. They are cowards, plain and simple.

[matty_f]

Who knows? Dissect it? Take his brain out and run experiments on it? Who can tell? One things for sure, I don't believe everything I'm being told about this story. Propaganda is very much alive and kicking in the Western world.

What experiments are they going to run on Bin Laden's brain?? Why would they have any need or desire to dissect his body?

Sure I think the story has been presented in a very propaganda-fuelled manner, however taking an Occam's Razor approach, it's much more likely that his body was buried at sea than them holding on to it for science and that.

[lapsedhibee]

What experiments are they going to run on Bin Laden's brain?? Why would they have any need or desire to dissect his body?

Sure I think the story has been presented in a very propaganda-fuelled manner, however taking an Occam's Razor approach, it's much more likely that his body was buried at sea than them holding on to it for science and that.

Some Rumsfeld-like spokesman character was on the tellybox yesterday answering why no pictures had been released by the US government. His reply was profoundly unconvincing - apparently pictures would be released in 24 hours, once the US was sure that the release was going to be orderly, etc etc.

They must have hunners and hunners of pictures of the dead body, of it "sliding gently into the sea" etc - wot they waiting for, why didn't they just pick a few and release? My guess is they're photoshopping on a pair of underpants, as they did with Saddam, to undermine his dignity and help prevent Bin Laden becoming a martyr.

[PeeJay]

Some Rumsfeld-like spokesman character was on the tellybox yesterday answering why no pictures had been released by the US government. His reply was profoundly unconvincing - apparently pictures would be released in 24 hours, once the US was sure that the release was going to be orderly, etc etc.

They must have hunners and hunners of pictures of the dead body, of it "sliding gently into the sea" etc - wot they waiting for, why didn't they just pick a few and release? My guess is they're photoshopping on a pair of underpants, as they did with Saddam, to undermine his dignity and help prevent Bin Laden becoming a martyr.

BBC quoting sources that the pictures are pretty gruesome and the authorities are worried about firing up resentment if they are released...sounds plausible to me.

[lapsedhibee]

BBC quoting sources that the pictures are pretty gruesome and the authorities are worried about firing up resentment if they are released...sounds plausible to me.

Pictures of the sea burial can't be gruesome though? :dunno:

[PeeJay]

Pictures of the sea burial can't be gruesome though? :dunno:

... that's a fair point, sorry I thought you meant photos of his corpse in general, must pay more attention!

[Twa Cairpets]

Just had a stroll through the thread, and can't believe the astonishing number of conspiracy theories starting to bud already around this story.

While every story like this should be looked at with a skeptical eye, the default position should equally not be one of conspiracy or cover up.

A vague feeling of "it doesnt all add up" isn't really a tenable position to take, unless there is something to back it up. The sea burial, the lack of photo's etc have all been explained. It does make one kind of wonder what evidence people would find acceptable - a live shooting? An appearance on Jeremy Kyle for those all important DNA results?

The guys dead, he's almost certainly been buried at sea, and these are both a good thing.

Anything that detracts from this takes away from the important question of how he had apparently been living down the road from Pakistani equivalent of Sandhurst. Keep the focus on real questions and concerns rather than inventing new and largely pointless ones.

[easty]

Pictures of the sea burial can't be gruesome though? :dunno:

Depends......how many pieces was he in?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Just had a stroll through the thread, and can't believe the astonishing number of conspiracy theories starting to bud already around this story.

While every stories like this should be looked at with a skeptical eye, the default position should equally not be one of conspiracy or cover up.

A vague feeling of "it doesnt all add up" isn't really a tenable position to take, unless there is something to back it up. The sea burial, the lack of photo's etc have all been explained. It does make one kind of wonder what evidence people would find acceptable - a live shooting? An appearance on Jeremy Kyle for those all important DNA results.

The guys dead, he's almost certainly been buried at sea, and these are both a good thing.

Anything that detracts from this takes away from the important question of how he had apparently been living down the road from Pakistani equivalent of Sandhurst. Keep the focus on real questions and concerns rather than inventing new and largely pointless ones.

It's like the birthers story, it seems like people nowadays don't accept the word of authority figures. The media were making a big deal about how US opinion polls were only showing that 38% or so of Americans believed that Obama was born in Hawaii. USA Today then did the same poll with Donald Trump (who demanded proof of Obama's birth), and found that only 43% believed Trump was born in the US!

I suppose it's hardly surprising given the amount of crap most of them have been talking for donkeys years.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I've also had another thought about this.

I know the official line is that Obama phoned David Cameron a couple of hours before he made his announcement to the world to inform him of events, which is suggesting that Cameron knew nothing about the whole operation.

However, is it just me or does anyone else think that Britain has encouraged America to wait until yesterday before carrying out their operation to kill Bin Laden, so that the Royal Wedding was over and done with?

Can anyone imagine the security nightmare that would have developed at this wedding, if Bin Laden had been killed this time last week?

The CIA and other governments around the world are warning the public about the serious threat of reprisal attacks to avenge the killing of Bin Laden. What better reprisal attack than an attack on the Royal Family of one of their fiercest enemies?

100% pish. The Yanks didn't tell anyone until it was done.

[Beefster]

Just had a stroll through the thread, and can't believe the astonishing number of conspiracy theories starting to bud already around this story.

While every stories like this should be looked at with a skeptical eye, the default position should equally not be one of conspiracy or cover up.

A vague feeling of "it doesnt all add up" isn't really a tenable position to take, unless there is something to back it up. The sea burial, the lack of photo's etc have all been explained. It does make one kind of wonder what evidence people would find acceptable - a live shooting? An appearance on Jeremy Kyle for those all important DNA results.

The guys dead, he's almost certainly been buried at sea, and these are both a good thing.

Anything that detracts from this takes away from the important question of how he had apparently been living down the road from Pakistani equivalent of Sandhurst. Keep the focus on real questions and concerns rather than inventing new and largely pointless ones.

Spot on but there's no reasoning with a conspiracy theorist. They just come up with some more nonsense to justify the trashing of their original beliefs.

[Betty Boop]

BBC quoting sources that the pictures are pretty gruesome and the authorities are worried about firing up resentment if they are released...sounds plausible to me.

That didn't stop the Americans from showing photos of Uday and Quasay Hussein when they were taken out.

[lapsedhibee]

Just had a stroll through the thread, and can't believe the astonishing number of conspiracy theories starting to bud already around this story.

While every stories like this should be looked at with a skeptical eye, the default position should equally not be one of conspiracy or cover up.

A vague feeling of "it doesnt all add up" isn't really a tenable position to take, unless there is something to back it up. The sea burial, the lack of photo's etc have all been explained. It does make one kind of wonder what evidence people would find acceptable - a live shooting? An appearance on Jeremy Kyle for those all important DNA results.

The guys dead, he's almost certainly been buried at sea, and these are both a good thing.

Anything that detracts from this takes away from the important question of how he had apparently been living down the road from Pakistani equivalent of Sandhurst. Keep the focus on real questions and concerns rather than inventing new and largely pointless ones.

Almost certainly. So mibbes aye and mibbes naw, aye?

The burial at sea has been explained, and the lack of photos of the dead body has been explained, but not afaik the lack of photos of the burial at sea. As the US govt has been keen to point out that everything was done in accordance with Islamic tradition, why not show a pic of whatever ceremony or events took place out there on the water?

100% definite conspiracy. :agree: You could see Obama was hiding something in the manner of his announcements. 100% definite cover-up. :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Depends......how many pieces was he in?

Way I heard it explained on the tellybox, Islamic burial at sea involves the body being in a bag of some sort before being lowered into the water, so missing pieces (etc) shouldn't preclude snaps of the event.

[Steve-O]

You all realise that when this burial at sea footage is released it will just be 'something' in a white sheet getting pushed into the water?

[lapsedhibee]

You all realise that when this burial at sea footage is released it will just be 'something' in a white sheet getting pushed into the water?

Yes. Which makes it all the more strange that it hasn't been released yet. What's the hold-up? Is the US govt still seeking relatives to inform them first, as a matter of courtesy? :dunno:

[Betty Boop]

Yes. Which makes it all the more strange that it hasn't been released yet. What's the hold-up? Is the US govt still seeking relatives to inform them first, as a matter of courtesy? :dunno:

He's deid again ! They dropped him in the sea to make the story more fishy ! :greengrin

[Leicester Fan]

Pictures of the sea burial can't be gruesome though? :dunno:

And all the conspiracy nuts will just accept that and not claim that it's a fake.

[Part/Time Supporter]

That didn't stop the Americans from showing photos of Uday and Quasay Hussein when they were taken out.

At that time their thinking was that it would be advantageous to convince Iraqis they were dead. Part of the reluctance to release the pictures now is the backlash they got in Iraq.

[lapsedhibee]

And all the conspiracy nuts will just accept that and not claim that it's a fake.

Yes, but they will release it, won't they, despite the consequence you've outlined. The question is, what's to be gained by delaying the release? :dunno:

[Betty Boop]

And all the conspiracy nuts will just accept that and not claim that it's a fake.

Maybe people don't just swallow everything that governments and the media feed them hook, line and sinker ? Its healthy to ask questions surely ? :greengrin

[khib70]

Maybe people don't just swallow everything that governments and the media feed them hook, line and sinker ? Its healthy to ask questions surely ? :greengrin

Of course it is BB. But automatically assuming some kind of convoluted, illogical conspiracy when there are much simpler explanations which don't suit someone's political stance is just plain daft.

The usual kneejerk anti-USA, CIA conspiracy stuff is present and correct on this thread, like every other one.

However, the real question that needs to be asked, is how Bin Laden managed to live for some time in a large fortified mansion, full of tooled-up bodyguards, a few hundred yards from a major Pakistani military establishment - while allegedly being the most wanted man in Pakistan.

If there is any grounds for a conspiracy theory, that's it right there, but since it doesn't involve the CIA/George Bush/Israel etc, it's not likely to be aired much. (Although to be fair, Robert Fisk in this morning's cheapo version of the Independent pauses in his customary anti-US conspiracy theorising to state more or less categorically that Pakistan knew fine well, and at a high level)

[easty]

Of course it is BB. But automatically assuming some kind of convoluted, illogical conspiracy when there are much simpler explanations which don't suit someone's political stance is just plain daft.

The usual kneejerk anti-USA, CIA conspiracy stuff is present and correct on this thread, like every other one.

However, the real question that needs to be asked, is how Bin Laden managed to live for some time in a large fortified mansion, full of tooled-up bodyguards, a few hundred yards from a major Pakistani military establishment - while allegedly being the most wanted man in Pakistan.

If there is any grounds for a conspiracy theory, that's it right there, but since it doesn't involve the CIA/George Bush/Israel etc, it's not likely to be aired much. (Although to be fair, Robert Fisk in this morning's cheapo version of the Independent pauses in his customary anti-US conspiracy theorising to state more or less categorically that Pakistan knew fine well, and at a high level)

That is the real question here. :agree:

But, if it comes out, with evidence, that Pakistan knew he was there all along and had no intention of doing anything about it, what then?

[PeeJay]

However, the real question that needs to be asked, is how Bin Laden managed to live for some time in a large fortified mansion, full of tooled-up bodyguards, a few hundred yards from a major Pakistani military establishment - while allegedly being the most wanted man in Pakistan.


Personally I do wonder if incompetence is more likely a factor here than any conspiracy on the part of the CIA/Pakistanis. The image presented by Hollywood movies of clever-clever CIA/FBI people is hardly reflected by the reality. And - let's face it - if the CIA didn't know (with all their resources) what chance do Pakistani security forces have of actually knowing where Public Enemy No 1 is at any given time?

[khib70]

That is the real question here. :agree:

But, if it comes out, with evidence, that Pakistan knew he was there all along and had no intention of doing anything about it, what then?
If it is definitively proved that the above happened, we come to the important question of - "How far was Bin Laden really removed from the Islamic "mainstream"? And what, exactly is the Islamic "mainstream" these days?

If it comes out, which is equally likely on present evidence, that it was simply down to sheer incompetence on the part of the authorities, or devious cleverness on the part of al Qaida, then these faults need to be urgently addressed.

[Twa Cairpets]

Almost certainly. So mibbes aye and mibbes naw, aye?

The burial at sea has been explained, and the lack of photos of the dead body has been explained, but not afaik the lack of photos of the burial at sea. As the US govt has been keen to point out that everything was done in accordance with Islamic tradition, why not show a pic of whatever ceremony or events took place out there on the water?

100% definite conspiracy. :agree: You could see Obama was hiding something in the manner of his announcements. 100% definite cover-up. :agree:

:fishin:

[Twa Cairpets]

Maybe people don't just swallow everything that governments and the media feed them hook, line and sinker ? Its healthy to ask questions surely ? :greengrin


It is, absolutely.

The standard position to take for this type of thing should be one of informed skepticism, which is very different from assumption of conspiracy.

Do the facts as presented make sense? Are there any obvious anomalies in what is being reported? When the answers you get back from these questions are sensible and viable, then it is very difficult indeed to form a coherent argument suggesting conspiracy without resorting to "I just feel..." or "clearly something fishy...". Anyones entitled to hold these views, but its a very short discussion or argument when they are asked to put any kind of flesh on the bones to back up a conspiracy hypothesis.

[easty]

Almost certainly. So mibbes aye and mibbes naw, aye?

The burial at sea has been explained, and the lack of photos of the dead body has been explained, but not afaik the lack of photos of the burial at sea. As the US govt has been keen to point out that everything was done in accordance with Islamic tradition, why not show a pic of whatever ceremony or events took place out there on the water?

100% definite conspiracy. :agree: You could see Obama was hiding something in the manner of his announcements. 100% definite cover-up. :agree:

Water got into the camera, from the splash Bin Laden made when he was dropped into the sea. The camera was 1 month out of its 12 month warranty and they're too busy arguing with Argos about getting a free replacement to worry about getting any photos out.

[lapsedhibee]

However, the real question that needs to be asked, is how Bin Laden managed to live for some time in a large fortified mansion, full of tooled-up bodyguards, a few hundred yards from a major Pakistani military establishment - while allegedly being the most wanted man in Pakistan.

If there is any grounds for a conspiracy theory, that's it right there, but since it doesn't involve the CIA/George Bush/Israel etc, it's not likely to be aired much.

If that is the real question, then one person who might be able to shed some light on an answer would be Bin Laden himself. In which case it would make sense for the US to take him alive and question him for a few days, stalling reporters, conspiracy theorists, etc, who want to see pictures of a dead body, burial at sea, etc.

[Leicester Fan]

If that is the real question, then one person who might be able to shed some light on an answer would be Bin Laden himself. In which case it would make sense for the US to take him alive and question him for a few days, stalling reporters, conspiracy theorists, etc, who want to see pictures of a dead body, burial at sea, etc.

You're assuming that OBL would have been amenable to being captured alive.

[lapsedhibee]

You're assuming that OBL would have been amenable to being captured alive.

Who says he wasn't likes? :wink:

[(((Fergus)))]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
--Martin Luther King, Jr

"People believe anything they read on the internet if it fits their preconceived notions."

--Thomas Jefferson.

Actually, it's from here: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-a-fake-quotation-is-born/238220/

:wink:

[Betty Boop]

Of course it is BB. But automatically assuming some kind of convoluted, illogical conspiracy when there are much simpler explanations which don't suit someone's political stance is just plain daft.

The usual kneejerk anti-USA, CIA conspiracy stuff is present and correct on this thread, like every other one.

However, the real question that needs to be asked, is how Bin Laden managed to live for some time in a large fortified mansion, full of tooled-up bodyguards, a few hundred yards from a major Pakistani military establishment - while allegedly being the most wanted man in Pakistan.

If there is any grounds for a conspiracy theory, that's it right there, but since it doesn't involve the CIA/George Bush/Israel etc, it's not likely to be aired much. (Although to be fair, Robert Fisk in this morning's cheapo version of the Independent pauses in his customary anti-US conspiracy theorising to state more or less categorically that Pakistan knew fine well, and at a high level)


The reason I was skeptical, is because I watched an interview by David Frost , in which Benazir Bhutto categorically states that Bin Laden died in 2007. It seems ordinary Joes are not the only ones questioning the version of events, I have just heard a press conference with the Pakistani foreign minister and many of the reporters seemed skeptical. I agree with your point regarding the Pakistanis would have had knowledge of his whereabouts, in a luxury compound 70 miles from Islamabad, a bit different from a cave in Tora Bora. :rolleyes: I fully expect that American troops will be pulled out of Afghanistan now that they have got their man, although Ayman Al Zawahiri is still on the loose. Don't you think its strange there has been no response from him, given that he is Bin Laden's right hand man ?

Bhuttos interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDTEEXG3ge8

[Woody1985]

How do we know she was telling the truth or that her information was accurate?

[IWasThere2016]

Love The Sun's front page - Bin Bagged (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3319526/The-Sun-will-publish-iPad-edition-of-the-paper-in-historic-move-this-Christmas-Day.html) :faf:

Check also the artist's impression of sea burial (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3560143/Osama-Bin-Laden-burial-off-aircraft-carrier.html) :faf:

PRICELESS! :thumbsup:

[RyeSloan]

The reason I was skeptical, is because I watched an interview by David Frost , in which Benazir Bhutto categorically states that Bin Laden died in 2007. It seems ordinary Joes are not the only ones questioning the version of events, I have just heard a press conference with the Pakistani foreign minister and many of the reporters seemed skeptical. I agree with your point regarding the Pakistanis would have had knowledge of his whereabouts, in a luxury compound 70 miles from Islamabad, a bit different from a cave in Tora Bora. :rolleyes: I fully expect that American troops will be pulled out of Afghanistan now that they have got their man, although Ayman Al Zawahiri is still on the loose. Don't you think its strange there has been no response from him, given that he is Bin Laden's right hand man ?
Bhuttos interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDTEEXG3ge8

You can turn this around though:

1) If Bin Laden is still alive then I'm sure AQ would have been pretty quick to show this US deception up

2) If he died some time ago then AQ would now be free to state this and again show the US up...why would they not do so now that the rest of the world knows their figure head is gone?

I seriously doubt that the USA and Obama have came to the conclusion that after 10 years they would make up a story on how they killed Bin Laden just to get a propaganda coup...it's a bit like the moon conspiracy in my eyes...it would simply take too much time and effort to keep the lies under wraps and considering my points 1 & 2 above there is plenty people outside of the control of the Whitehouse that could easily show this deception up if it was a fabrication.

I'm not saying the whole story is 100% as it happened but I'm really struggling to believe that the USA would simply make up this story, especially as it involved an operation on the Pakistani mainland.

[Betty Boop]

You can turn this around though:

1) If Bin Laden is still alive then I'm sure AQ would have been pretty quick to show this US deception up

2) If he died some time ago then AQ would now be free to state this and again show the US up...why would they not do so now that the rest of the world knows their figure head is gone?

I seriously doubt that the USA and Obama have came to the conclusion that after 10 years they would make up a story on how they killed Bin Laden just to get a propaganda coup...it's a bit like the moon conspiracy in my eyes...it would simply take too much time and effort to keep the lies under wraps and considering my points 1 & 2 above there is plenty people outside of the control of the Whitehouse that could easily show this deception up if it was a fabrication.

I'm not saying the whole story is 100% as it happened but I'm really struggling to believe that the USA would simply make up this story, especially as it involved an operation on the Pakistani mainland.

Agree with both your points :greengrin Its early days though I suppose.

[khib70]

Agree with both your points :greengrin Its early days though I suppose.
Me too.

It is early days indeed. There is a lot more that hasn't come out. With regard to al Zawahiri, I'd imagine he's gone deep into hiding, since the loss of both him and bin Laden would be a huge blow to al Qaida.

Mind you, I wouldn't rule out his hiding place being the stationery cupboard in the headquarters of the Pakistani intelligence service:greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

The reason I was skeptical, is because I watched an interview by David Frost , in which Benazir Bhutto categorically states that Bin Laden died in 2007. It seems ordinary Joes are not the only ones questioning the version of events, I have just heard a press conference with the Pakistani foreign minister and many of the reporters seemed skeptical. I agree with your point regarding the Pakistanis would have had knowledge of his whereabouts, in a luxury compound 70 miles from Islamabad, a bit different from a cave in Tora Bora. :rolleyes: I fully expect that American troops will be pulled out of Afghanistan now that they have got their man, although Ayman Al Zawahiri is still on the loose. Don't you think its strange there has been no response from him, given that he is Bin Laden's right hand man ?

Bhuttos interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDTEEXG3ge8

That was quite odd wasnt it? It's a throwaway remark made in the middle of an interview about something else.

I suppose the way to think about it is that if you'e the US, you just wouldnt make this declaration unless you were sure, 100%, you'd got your man.

It would be pretty easy for him to prove he was alive, as he has done in the time since the Bhutto interview, I think I'm right in saying.

[Betty Boop]

That was quite odd wasnt it? It's a throwaway remark made in the middle of an interview about something else.

I suppose the way to think about it is that if you'e the US, you just wouldnt make this declaration unless you were sure, 100%, you'd got your man.

It would be pretty easy for him to prove he was alive, as he has done in the time since the Bhutto interview, I think I'm right in saying.

I'm not too sure, I can't recall having heard anything from him for years now.

[Gatecrasher]

Love The Sun's front page - Bin Bagged (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3319526/The-Sun-will-publish-iPad-edition-of-the-paper-in-historic-move-this-Christmas-Day.html) :faf:

Check also the artist's impression of sea burial (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3560143/Osama-Bin-Laden-burial-off-aircraft-carrier.html) :faf:

PRICELESS! :thumbsup:

brilliant :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Agree with both your points :greengrin Its early days though I suppose.


Me too.
It is early days indeed. There is a lot more that hasn't come out. With regard to al Zawahiri, I'd imagine he's gone deep into hiding, since the loss of both him and bin Laden would be a huge blow to al Qaida.

Mind you, I wouldn't rule out his hiding place being the stationery cupboard in the headquarters of the Pakistani intelligence service:greengrin

Wow two people agreeing with me on the same day on the same thread....about as likely as Bin Laden being found and shot :greengrin

[easty]

I'm not too sure, I can't recall having heard anything from him for years now.

He's away working on new material. The charts are too dominated by the likes of Lady Gaga just now anyway, Bin Laden would struggle.:wink:

[steakbake]

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone, but this I think, isn't one. There was no way he could be taken alive. He had to be killed in the raid and his body disposed of shortly after.

What I reckon has happened here is that the US decided to do what they probably should have done a long time ago and planned and executed a unilateral mission without inviting their hosts.

I think this all makes Pakistan look well dodgy. The worlds most wanted man, living a few miles from the capital in a massive walled compound a couple of blocks away from the national military academy? And they say they didn't know he was there? Give me a break.

It also makes me think that people like Robert Fisk were absolutely right: never mind Afghanistan and Iraq - Pakistan all along is the country which should have been under the most scrutiny.

Still, we live and don't learn...

[lapsedhibee]

There was no way he could be taken alive. He had to be killed in the raid.

How do we know this? :confused:

[steakbake]

How do we know this? :confused:

Because if he was taken alive, his captors would have to deal with the ensuing months of securing their captive, some kind of trial during which all kinds of information would come out which would be embarrassing to the US and their client states and finally, with a judgement carried out, there would be a countdown to his inevitable execution and his martyrdom.

If his followers knew that the US had him, do you think they'd just sit by and read about it in the newspapers or do you think it would make the US even more of a target, giving time for pro-Bin Laden elements to coalesce around an event and in that event, provide a cohesion which has so far been lacking in the AlQaida movement?

Essentially, carrying out due process and a democratic form of justice would have been too much of a sustained focal point which would have benefited the US's enemies.

Far better to do the raid in the night, kill their man in an act of summary justice (or as the result of an apparent fire fight within the compound), give him a quick burial somewhere that a tomb can't be erected than to hand AQ on a plate, a platform for gathering support, targetting attacks etc that would have been involved in taking him alive.

He was always going to have to be killed upon capture. He knew it - he even said so himself.

[hibsbollah]

Theres no way hes dead. Hes holed up somewhere with Elvis, Shergar and that bloke from the Manics.

[steakbake]

Theres no way hes dead. Hes holed up somewhere with Elvis, Shergar and that bloke from the Manics.

Lucan's backpacker hostel, Shangri-La?

Seems to me far more likely he's there than in paradise surrounded by virgins, but you know...

[ac1]

Everyday Obama's Nobel Peace Prize gets more laughable!

[khib70]

Everyday Obama's Nobel Peace Prize gets more laughable!
It's looking a lot less laughable than when he got it. The killing of this bigoted warmongering fanatic more than justifies it for me.

[ac1]

' bigoted warmongering fanatic'

Osama or Obama? :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Lucan's backpacker hostel, Shangri-La?

Seems to me far more likely he's there than in paradise surrounded by virgins, but you know...

Would be a wild shangri-la. Bevvies of virginal beauties for OBL, all the hay and carrots in the world for Shergar, copious lines of coke for richie manic and cheeseburgers for The King. Paradise city.

[Dashing Bob S]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the young guard in AQ had grassed Osama BL up to the Yanks. Let's face it, for the last eleven years he wasn't a particularly great terrorist leader, dining out (or in) for this efforts on the World Trade Centre back in 9-11.

Above all, he diverted a lot of AQ resources in looking after him, keeping him safe etc, resources which surely could have been better spent, from an AQ perspective, on terror campaigns?

You could imagine that he would be a pompous, boring old barsteward as well. All those hotheaded young bloods asking "when do we get to suicide bomb?" and him replying, "just let's watch that video of the World Trade Centre going down one more time, then get me a takeaway from Domino's." He'd probably have been like Hitler in the bunker, all dotty and delusional, and there's probably big bucks for some young AQ guy to slip the story to Hollywood - I'd be surprised if some commissioning agent wasn't on the case right now.

As time went on, you sense that the Yanks probably realised that it was better that AQ kept him under house arrest as an ineffective leader, rather than unleash new cells of terrorists from a different, modern era, with perhaps, new and unpredictable ways of plying their trade.

In other words, I think ridding the world of this spent force has probably made it a far more dangerous place.

[PeeJay]

Latest breaking news suggests Osama Bin Laden was unarmed, but offered resistance! Wonder what else we will be told in the coming days?

[Wembley67]

Bottom line is no-one outwith the top brass will know what ever happened. Still doesn't make it any less fun trying to make up conspiracies though.

[Twa Cairpets]

Everyday Obama's Nobel Peace Prize gets more laughable!

Well as it was awarded primarily for his efforts to remove nuclear weapons, your point isn't really valid.

Now, if he'd nuked Osama, that would be different...

[ArabHibee]

What experiments are they going to run on Bin Laden's brain?? Why would they have any need or desire to dissect his body?

Sure I think the story has been presented in a very propaganda-fuelled manner, however taking an Occam's Razor approach, it's much more likely that his body was buried at sea than them holding on to it for science and that.

FFS Matty, have you never seen the X-Files? :rolleyes:
:greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Well as it was awarded primarily for his efforts to remove nuclear weapons, your point isn't really valid.

Now, if he'd nuked Osama, that would be different...

I think they were scared they might hit Omaha by mistake.

[ArabHibee]

Latest breaking news suggests Osama Bin Laden was unarmed, but offered resistance! Wonder what else we will be told in the coming days?

So. How do you resist capture whilst being unarmed?
And why did they ask him to surrender if they were told to assasinate him?

These are not conspiracy theories, just genuine questions that I have not seen any answers to.

And someone else commented that the Burial at sea question has been answered. How has it? I agree with the reasons behind why they said they did it, what I'm unclear about is that they cannot prove that it actually happened.

[Removed]

On the news they said that photos will be released.

[Phil D. Rolls]

On the news they said that photos will be released.

On the news they told us he put up a fight and used his wife as a shield. I'm notit commenting on whether it was actually him that was killed, merely pointing out that we are at the mercy of inaccurate stories all the time.

I remember when De Menezes was murdered, our news carried the story that he was an armed terrorist for at least 24 hours. Either journalists are in cahoots with the establishment, or they aren't sceptical enough of official stories to check facts before putting a story out,

[lapsedhibee]

On the news they said that photos will be released.

It'll take a while for the CIA to locate a suitable lookalike. They were able to get photos of "Saddam" out straightaway because there was a ready-made pool of available lookalikes who had made public appearances for him.

[Part/Time Supporter]

A Septic vowed on 9/11 not to shave until Bin Laden was caught (no, really).

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://media.komonews.com/images/110502_gary_weddle.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.komonews.com/news/local/121107609.html&usg=__276FDz0kcT9aY3zAuHx2VcAiaRM=&h=304&w=405&sz=40&hl=en&start=0&sig2=Fg29-Hx7r6B0OUnLdOVShw&zoom=1&tbnid=jKd0J9wBvZqYGM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=160&ei=MhrBTeCFCM6WhQes3ZiuBQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522bin%2Bladen%2522%2Bteacher%2Bsha ved%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1020%26bih %3D537%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=360&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0&tx=62&ty=48

[JimBHibees]

On the news they told us he put up a fight and used his wife as a shield. I'm notit commenting on whether it was actually him that was killed, merely pointing out that we are at the mercy of inaccurate stories all the time.

I remember when De Menezes was murdered, our news carried the story that he was an armed terrorist for at least 24 hours. Either journalists are in cahoots with the establishment, or they aren't sceptical enough of official stories to check facts before putting a story out,

And also Scotland yard gave a doctored picture to the Evening Standard which had Menezes distorted to look like one of the terrorists.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It'll take a while for the CIA to locate a suitable lookalike. They were able to get photos of "Saddam" out straightaway because there was a ready-made pool of available lookalikes who had made public appearances for him.

They are saying his head took so many hits that his face will most likely be unrecognisable. But I saw a picture in the paper with a bullet hole in the middle of his head, so who is telling the truth?

No point in asking any of the neighbours, because they had no idea who lived in that house. In fact, some of them didn't even know it was a house.

I don't think it was a compound built by the Pakistan military for training exercises or anything. The British Army train in mocked up city streets, but anyone can see they aren't real, because nobody would want to live in them.

Besides, I saw a graphic on the TV and it had pictures of satellite dishes, and even showed you where they burned all their rubbish, so it must be a real house.

[Phil D. Rolls]

And also Scotland yard gave a doctored picture to the Evening Standard which had Menezes distorted to look like one of the terrorists.

A doctored picture, what's that?

[JimBHibees]

A doctored picture, what's that?

They put out a picture which was of Menezes which was doctored (changed, amended) to look more like one of the terrorists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/menezes-picture-manipulated-to-look-like-bomber-397156.html

[Phil D. Rolls]

They put out a picture which was of Menezes which was doctored (changed, amended) to look more like one of the terrorists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/menezes-picture-manipulated-to-look-like-bomber-397156.html

Sorry, I was just acting the goat. That just illustrates why you have to take everything you see in the media with a pinch of salt.

[ArabHibee]

A Septic vowed on 9/11 not to shave until Bin Laden was caught (no, really).
Isn't that Osama in the photo on the left?
:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Sorry, I was just acting the goat. That just illustrates why you have to take everything you see in the media with a pinch of salt.

Completely agree the amount of lies and spin we ae fed is embarressing. Aparently Menezes vaulted the barrier, had a black puffer jacket on and sprinted into the train carriage. A little different from the reality of him in a denim jacket, strolling through the barrier, being that desperate to blow up a train as to stop and pick up a metro then getting on the train.

[Betty Boop]

Completely agree the amount of lies and spin we ae fed is embarressing. Aparently Menezes vaulted the barrier, had a black puffer jacket on and sprinted into the train carriage. A little different from the reality of him in a denim jacket, strolling through the barrier, being that desperate to blow up a train as to stop and pick up a metro then getting on the train.

:agree:

[Betty Boop]

*** News really going to town, apparently OBL had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes. :greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

Completely agree the amount of lies and spin we ae fed is embarressing. Aparently Menezes vaulted the barrier, had a black puffer jacket on and sprinted into the train carriage. A little different from the reality of him in a denim jacket, strolling through the barrier, being that desperate to blow up a train as to stop and pick up a metro then getting on the train.

But what people forget is that when things are clearly spun and fabricated, like the Menezes stuff, the truth comes out through questions being unable to be answered or a clear and unequivocal reason for doubt being raised.

People in power doing less than honest things is not anything new or limited to the UK/USA - it doesnt mean its right and it doesnt mean its something that we should roll over and accept, but at least in the West there is the opportunity for investigation and redress, again like Menezes.

What really depresses me is the knee-jerk to point a finger and automatically disbelieve. The detail of the Bin Laden death is to be honest a matter of inconsequence - whether he was armed or unarmed, behind a human shield or not doesnt bother me in the slightest - it may be the case that the facts are not even clearly known by the people who did the raid such, I would think, would be the pandemonium going on.

The fact we have not been given the gory minutiae in the days immediately after the event isnt an issue - when you think about it why would we expect to receive this in news bite format or in You-Tube ready chunks. To be honest I dont care if they publish a photo or not - whatever they do its a no-win - it'll either be deemed a fake or decried for being triumphalist.

[khib70]

But what people forget is that when things are clearly spun and fabricated, like the Menezes stuff, the truth comes out through questions being unable to be answered or a clear and unequivocal reason for doubt being raised.

People in power doing less than honest things is not anything new or limited to the UK/USA - it doesnt mean its right and it doesnt mean its something that we should roll over and accept, but at least in the West there is the opportunity for investigation and redress, again like Menezes.

What really depresses me is the knee-jerk to point a finger and automatically disbelieve. The detail of the Bin Laden death is to be honest a matter of inconsequence - whether he was armed or unarmed, behind a human shield or not doesnt bother me in the slightest - it may be the case that the facts are not even clearly known by the people who did the raid such, I would think, would be the pandemonium going on.

The fact we have not been given the gory minutiae in the days immediately after the event isnt an issue - when you think about it why would we expect to receive this in news bite format or in You-Tube ready chunks. To be honest I dont care if they publish a photo or not - whatever they do its a no-win - it'll either be deemed a fake or decried for being triumphalist.

:agree:That's a very good post.

Always amazes me that people who bang on about not ever believing the official version of events will buy the most farcical conspiracy theories in a totally uncritical manner. Whether it's 9/11 or the moon landings or Roswell, any challenge to the official version is not subjected to the "show us the evidence" routine which we're now experiencing.

And it's just obscene to compare a mass murderer like bin Laden with a totally innocent man like de Menezes. bin Laden died by the rules he himself made, and good riddance.

[JimBHibees]

But what people forget is that when things are clearly spun and fabricated, like the Menezes stuff, the truth comes out through questions being unable to be answered or a clear and unequivocal reason for doubt being raised.

People in power doing less than honest things is not anything new or limited to the UK/USA - it doesnt mean its right and it doesnt mean its something that we should roll over and accept, but at least in the West there is the opportunity for investigation and redress, again like Menezes.

What really depresses me is the knee-jerk to point a finger and automatically disbelieve. The detail of the Bin Laden death is to be honest a matter of inconsequence - whether he was armed or unarmed, behind a human shield or not doesnt bother me in the slightest - it may be the case that the facts are not even clearly known by the people who did the raid such, I would think, would be the pandemonium going on.

The fact we have not been given the gory minutiae in the days immediately after the event isnt an issue - when you think about it why would we expect to receive this in news bite format or in You-Tube ready chunks. To be honest I dont care if they publish a photo or not - whatever they do its a no-win - it'll either be deemed a fake or decried for being triumphalist.

Dont disagree with any of that though I would suggest that just because we are in the West doesnt mean things arent hushed up or hidden forever just more difficult.

Personally not that interested in seeing photos of Bin Laden and as you say the default position for some seems to be to assume a conspiracy when in most cases there will be none.

[Leicester Fan]

The funny thing is is that the people who would normally be crying crocodile tears the loudest about the shooting of an unarmed man can't complain now without admitting that the US actually did kill OBL on Sunday.

[hibsbollah]

The funny thing is is that the people who would normally be crying crocodile tears the loudest about the shooting of an unarmed man can't complain now without admitting that the US actually did kill OBL on Sunday.

You've lost me there.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree:That's a very good post.

Always amazes me that people who bang on about not ever believing the official version of events will buy the most farcical conspiracy theories in a totally uncritical manner. Whether it's 9/11 or the moon landings or Roswell, any challenge to the official version is not subjected to the "show us the evidence" routine which we're now experiencing.

And it's just obscene to compare a mass murderer like bin Laden with a totally innocent man like de Menezes. bin Laden died by the rules he himself made, and good riddance.

I wasn't comparing anybody. I was saying keep an open mind about facts before forming opinions, as the media cannot be trusted.

Yesterday morning they were saying Bin Laden used his wife as a shield. By the evening it transpired that wasn't true. Just as the Menezes story changed in 24 hours. Oh then there was the Scottish girl who was blown up by her captors, until it turned out her rescuers had killed her. Bloody Sunday wasn't caused by Republicans firing on British troops either, and the Guidlford 4 were innocent.

I've yet to see conclusive proof that Lee Harvey Oswald fired a single shot, but fair does no one can prove that he didn't either. We're just as well off without animals like him anyway, so we shouldn't really ask too many questions.

What doesn't help anybody is naivety. Right now there will be people in Pakistan listening to an alternative version of events, and they too will believe it is all true.

I know lifes a lot easier if you believe that the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys dress in black. An objective analysis of facts, and an open mind can often show that it's not that simple.

But the media treat us like we are simple. A lot of people seem to be prepared to go along with it.

[PeeJay]

But the media treat us like we are simple.

You're certainly correct in not wishing to take everything the "media" presents us with at face value. Yet, would it be fair to say that people get the media they deserve?

Anyway, not all information is provided by the media, surely - some comes from governments, agencies or the people involved, some events etc. are live, i.e. not edited, manipulated: we can see for ourselves - and we can still get it wrong. Not everything presented by the media is tainted surely? It's too much of a generalisation to say we can't trust the media: the media is a good thing, if we do as you say and we are careful in how we use it.

[hibsbollah]

Brilliant (as usual) from Adam Curtis.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/03/osama-bin-laden-soviet-union-baddie?cat=commentisfree&type=article

[Phil D. Rolls]

You're certainly correct in not wishing to take everything the "media" presents us with at face value. Yet, would it be fair to say that people get the media they deserve?

Anyway, not all information is provided by the media, surely - some comes from governments, agencies or the people involved, some events etc. are live, i.e. not edited, manipulated: we can see for ourselves - and we can still get it wrong. Not everything presented by the media is tainted surely? It's too much of a generalisation to say we can't trust the media: the media is a good thing, if we do as you say and we are careful in how we use it.

At their best, journalists can expose lies and flush out the manipulators. However, at times, they are too quick to get a story out.

If they were corrupt, things like Menezes would never have been exposed. It's just that, if I had my doubts about the police story that day, then surely broadcasters must have as well. It's at times like that they let themselves (and the public) down.

There are questions to be asked. I suppose that they cover themselves by making it clear they are reporting what they have been told. Things like The Sun, saying "A Coward to the End" have no place in civilised society though.

[PeeJay]

Things like The Sun, saying "A Coward to the End" have no place in civilised society though.

Yet in the civilised society that is the UK the Sun is one of the leading newspapers - crazy! Anyway "Gotcha!" killed off that particular excuse for a newspaper for me a long time ago.

[CropleyWasGod]

After a couple of days' reflection, my take on all of this is.... assuming that, yes, it's him...

What value is there in even disclosing that fact?

Other than political kudos for Obama in the US, what really is the point? All it will do, in a practical sense, is create hundreds of new jihadists. I would have thought that the way to dismantle Al-qaida and the likes would have been quietly and systematically. That way, in ten years or so, the jihad would be more or less over and the conditions that caused it (US triumphalist foreign policy) would no longer exist.

[Leicester Fan]

After a couple of days' reflection, my take on all of this is.... assuming that, yes, it's him...

What value is there in even disclosing that fact?



Can you imagine the conspiracy nuts if they didn't, it's not like he was living in the middle of a desert and nobody would notice.

Anyway what is the value of not disclosing the fact.

[ac1]

No release of photo - still waiting on proof........................:I'm waiti

[CropleyWasGod]

Can you imagine the conspiracy nuts if they didn't, it's not like he was living in the middle of a desert and nobody would notice.

Anyway what is the value of not disclosing the fact.

Eh? If they didn't disclose it, then no one would know that he was dead. :confused:

The value of not disclosing it is the avoidance of martyrdom, and the recruitment of hundreds of jihadists.

[lapsedhibee]

Eh? If they didn't disclose it, then no one would know that he was dead. :confused:

The value of not disclosing it is the avoidance of martyrdom, and the recruitment of hundreds of jihadists.

:agree: When he was killed in 2007 everybody kept quiet about it (except that blabbermouth Benazir Bhutto, but nobody took any notice of her because she's a wumman), and they should have kept quiet about it this time round as well.

[EH6 Hibby]

US officials hav recovered Osama Bin Ladens mobile. It had 1 voice mail message - "Osama mate, its Gazza! Divent worry, am on my way with me fishing rod"

[hibsdaft]

And it's just obscene to compare a mass murderer like bin Laden with a totally innocent man like de Menezes. bin Laden died by the rules he himself made, and good riddance.

:agree::agree:

as for the conspriracy theories, i'm yet to hear one which makes any actual sense - usually a good starting point for these things, is a logical explanation for the theory.

the idea that he's out there alive and Obama is just calling him dead with his finger crossed is so stupid its funny.

[hibsdaft]

The funny thing is is that the people who would normally be crying crocodile tears the loudest about the shooting of an unarmed man can't complain now without admitting that the US actually did kill OBL on Sunday.

not really. most conspiracy theorists do not care about such things, they just need to come up with ludicrous stories to blame everything and anything on the Jews (which the vast majority of conspiracy theories do at some point).

[TheGreenMan]

I'm one that does not believe Obama in all of this. I've read and watched a lot of the news coverage from UK and USA and it does not add up to me.

I'm not saying he's not dead. But there is no danger that they got him on Sunday night. It was staged. How can the US Govt release statements then retract them and change it altogether if they watched this live through video feed?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491113/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-White-House-backtracks-on-how-bin-Laden-died.html

He is dead already I reckon, this was staged to help Obama get another term in the White House. It also helps the US economy in its recession.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/us/politics/05poll.html?hp

This is now obviously seen as the most “politically expedient” time -

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/04-May-2011/Bin-Ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade-EU-Times/1

A video of Wayne Madsen discussing why he also thinks this has been staged with a few other reasons why it has been staged in his opinion. Interesting viewing; http://youtu.be/Z678cpylUIc

And Surprise surprise, Mr Obama decides not to release the mythical photo's of a dead Bin Laden http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13287977 . They've changed their original story about how he was killed and there is so much conflicting information coming from different sources within the White House, CIA and other 'Intelligence Officials' that the USA are being made to look stupid.

[TheGreenMan]

I'm one that does not believe Obama in all of this. I've read and watched a lot of the news coverage from UK and USA and it does not add up to me.

I'm not saying he's not dead. But there is no danger that they got him on Sunday night. It was staged. How can the US Govt release statements then retract them and change it altogether if they watched this live through video feed?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491113/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-White-House-backtracks-on-how-bin-Laden-died.html

He is dead already I reckon, this was staged to help Obama get another term in the White House. It also helps the US economy in its recession.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/us/politics/05poll.html?hp

This is now obviously seen as the most “politically expedient” time -

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/04-May-2011/Bin-Ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade-EU-Times/1

A video of Wayne Madsen discussing why he also thinks this has been staged with a few other reasons why it has been staged in his opinion. Interesting viewing; http://youtu.be/Z678cpylUIc

And Surprise surprise, Mr Obama decides not to release the mythical photo's of a dead Bin Laden http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13287977 . They've changed their original story about how he was killed and there is so much conflicting information coming from different sources within the White House, CIA and other 'Intelligence Officials' that the USA are being made to look stupid.

I know there is a lot of reading/watching to be done in this post and most wont bother reading the linked articles but for anyone who does - you cant seriously believe fully that Obama and the USA raided this house and killed OBL on Sunday.

For all asking the question - How come Pakistan never knew he was living in this house in a town dominated by military presence....maybe its because he never actually lived there? The only house in the town with high security walls, barbed wire and CCTV security and no questions were ever asked? :confused:

[Betty Boop]

Brilliant (as usual) from Adam Curtis.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/03/osama-bin-laden-soviet-union-baddie?cat=commentisfree&type=article

:agree: Another bogey-man will be along soon.

[Phil D. Rolls]

US officials hav recovered Osama Bin Ladens mobile. It had 1 voice mail message - "Osama mate, its Gazza! Divent worry, am on my way with me fishing rod"

:faf: Koala tea.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree::agree:

as for the conspriracy theories, i'm yet to hear one which makes any actual sense - usually a good starting point for these things, is a logical explanation for the theory.

the idea that he's out there alive and Obama is just calling him dead with his finger crossed is so stupid its funny.

Kind of like that conspiracy theory that all the Moslems in the world are in league to bring down the west, and they have this guy leading them from a cave in Afghanistan. Or was it Iraq, or maybe Iran, or possibly Pakistan, I can never get my head round these wacky ideas.

Here's another crazy one. Israel are after all the water in the surrounding countries and are in league with the Americans, who will intervene to "restore stability", once they find the right excuse.

What about the strategic importance of the Middle East as a buffer against Chinese expansionism? Naw, these theories do my nut in, I much prefer to see the world as a war between good (us) and evil (the rest).

[Betty Boop]

Reuters have images of three dead men from the compound, but no Osama. :greengrin

LINK REMOVED

[easty]

I'm one that does not believe Obama in all of this. I've read and watched a lot of the news coverage from UK and USA and it does not add up to me.

I'm not saying he's not dead. But there is no danger that they got him on Sunday night. It was staged. How can the US Govt release statements then retract them and change it altogether if they watched this live through video feed?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8491113/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-White-House-backtracks-on-how-bin-Laden-died.html

He is dead already I reckon, this was staged to help Obama get another term in the White House. It also helps the US economy in its recession.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/us/politics/05poll.html?hp

This is now obviously seen as the most “politically expedient” time -

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/04-May-2011/Bin-Ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade-EU-Times/1

A video of Wayne Madsen discussing why he also thinks this has been staged with a few other reasons why it has been staged in his opinion. Interesting viewing; http://youtu.be/Z678cpylUIc

And Surprise surprise, Mr Obama decides not to release the mythical photo's of a dead Bin Laden http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13287977 . They've changed their original story about how he was killed and there is so much conflicting information coming from different sources within the White House, CIA and other 'Intelligence Officials' that the USA are being made to look stupid.

No more stupid than those running round believing the conspiracy theories. :confused:

[Twa Cairpets]

I know there is a lot of reading/watching to be done in this post and most wont bother reading the linked articles but for anyone who does - you cant seriously believe fully that Obama and the USA raided this house and killed OBL on Sunday.

For all asking the question - How come Pakistan never knew he was living in this house in a town dominated by military presence....maybe its because he never actually lived there? The only house in the town with high security walls, barbed wire and CCTV security and no questions were ever asked? :confused:

Well I did read through and I did watch Alex Jones.

There is not a shred of evidence that can in any way be verified posted in any of the links. From the Pakistani newspaper referencing Jones:


"Alex Jones was separately told by a high level Republican source that Bin Laden was dead and that his body was being kept “on ice” until Osama’s death could be announced at the most “politically expedient” time."

So an ex Republican candidate talk-show host who describes himself as a paleoconservative quotes mysterious un-named "senior" Republican sources for a story that lessens the positive impact for Obama. Is that a conspiracy theory from the GOP, or is is just politics in action in such a way that people are happy to believe it because it fits in with their own political preconceptions?

Why do you choose to believe a talk show host with an agenda rather than the US President with the potential to lose everything?

The Pakistani news source you link to has him dying in:

2001 and being buried in an unmarked grave
2001 dying of kidney disease
2005 dying in an earthquake
2007 killed by Omar Sheikh

Plus a host of people saying "probably" "maybe" "dont think" and other guesswork proposals concerning his life. Which of these deaths do you think happened? Why is any one of these more likely than his death at the hands of the US? Why didnt they trumpet the claim to support Bush if they belived the death to be true?

It also finishes with the spectacualr line which entirely rubbishes any validity the rest of the article may have had:


The fact that the myth behind Al-Qaeda has been completely demolished and that the group, through a myriad of revelations, including Anwar Al-Alawki’s post-9/11 visit to the Pentagon, is now widely known to be a US intelligence front, perhaps now means that Al-Qaeda will be swept under the rug and a new enemy will be invented in order to legitimize the continued US military-complex domination of the globe..

[Leicester Fan]

Eh? If they didn't disclose it, then no one would know that he was dead. :confused:


His compound was in the middle of a town. You can't just fly a load of helicopters in there, shoot the place up and hope that nobody notices.

[bighairyfaeleith]

His compound was in the middle of a town. You can't just fly a load of helicopters in there, shoot the place up and hope that nobody notices.

yeah but you can be the worlds most wanted man and live there for five years without anyone noticing:wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

His compound was in the middle of a town. You can't just fly a load of helicopters in there, shoot the place up and hope that nobody notices.

You're not getting me. Yeah, sure, something happened... but my point is that we didn't need to be told what. These kind of operations probably happen often in Pakistan, but I bet we only hear about some of them.

[H18sry]

No release of photo - still waiting on proof........................:I'm waiti
Here's proof that he was buried at sea
7363

[bighairyfaeleith]

Not even the americans would be stupid enough to make this up. The story might have holes but the headline is beyond doubt.

[lapsedhibee]

Not even the americans would be stupid enough to make this up. The story might have holes but the headline is beyond doubt.

More holes than a calendar.

[bighairyfaeleith]

More holes than a calendar.

sorry I'm probably being dim, but my calendar doesn't have holes:confused:

[Removed]

sorry I'm probably being dim, but my calendar doesn't have holes:confused:

My wife's does. It's a big silver bowl thing :wink:

[bighairyfaeleith]

My wife's does. It's a big silver bowl thing :wink:

Ok I'm being dim, just tried googling it though and nothing, anyone point me in the right direction here:greengrin

[Sylar]

[QUOTE=Betty Boop;2794050]Reuters have images of three dead men from the compound, but no Osama. :greengrin

Link removed..................

I struggle to see the need for the ":greengrin" in all honesty, and being that this IS a family forum, perhaps some modicum of warning as to what lies within would be beneficial, as the photos are bloody (no pun intended) grizzly.

In such an age of photoshop and digitally altered images, no doubt people will remain unsatisfied when the image is finally released.

I'm personally in no rush to look at any such image.

[ballengeich]

Ok I'm being dim, just tried googling it though and nothing, anyone point me in the right direction here:greengrin

Directions are M9 to Stirling then get on to the A84. It's the place where the original tv series of Dr Finlay's casebook was filmed.:greengrin

[bighairyfaeleith]

Directions are M9 to Stirling then get on to the A84. It's the place where the original tv series of Dr Finlay's casebook was filmed.:greengrin

PISS OFF:greengrin

[ballengeich]

PISS OFF:greengrin

I shall, as the Europa league semis are about to start.

The earlier poster was looking for the word colander.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I shall, as the Europa league semis are about to start.

The earlier poster was looking for the word colander.

Gotcha, new what that was honest:greengrin

[Betty Boop]

I struggle to see the need for the ":greengrin" in all honesty, and being that this IS a family forum, perhaps some modicum of warning as to what lies within would be beneficial, as the photos are bloody (no pun intended) grizzly.

In such an age of photoshop and digitally altered images, no doubt people will remain unsatisfied when the image is finally released.

I'm personally in no rush to look at any such image.

Sorry if you were offended. Admins please remove if deemed inappropriate.

[Sylar]

Sorry if you were offended. Admins please remove if deemed inappropriate.

Don't get me wrong, I spent a term studying forensic science and I'm more than used to looking at graphic pictures, including some horrific crime scene photos, so it wasn't that which bothered me.

It's all fair and well that these photos are now in the public domain but I'm guessing there are some younger posters (and indeed guests) who will be able to view that so freely.

[ArabHibee]

Here's proof that he was buried at sea
7363

:faf:
:top marks

[Woody1985]

What surprised me most was how graphic those images are. Strangely they were more gory than those you see in films.

Interesting all the same.

[ac1]

Here's proof that he was buried at sea
7363

:greengrin :aok:

[hibsbollah]

As the archbishop of canterbury expresses his concern, there is joy at the news in Eastern Europe...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fw atch%3Fv%3DHtt4TX8_WKw%26sns%3Dfb&sns=fb&v=Htt4TX8_WKw&gl=GB

[Sylar]

:greengrin :aok:

I was hoping you of all people would have responded to my second comment:

In an age of photoshop and digital enhancement, would you accept a photo as "proof" of death, seeing as you seem to already have a well established opinion about the invalidity of his killing.

[ac1]

I was hoping you of all people would have responded to my second comment:

In an age of photoshop and digital enhancement, would you accept a photo as "proof" of death, seeing as you seem to already have a well established opinion about the invalidity of his killing.


I would certainly be interested in seeing a photo but as I already said before I have doubted the official 9/11 story since almost day 1 so I would have to see the photo before commenting. I am not a 'conspiracy lunatic' about every media event but when you really look into the government story of that tragedy there is so many unanswered questions that I do question events relating to it more.

[Sylar]

I would certainly be interested in seeing a photo but as I already said before I have doubted the official 9/11 story since almost day 1 so I would have to see the photo before commenting. I am not a 'conspiracy lunatic' about every media event but when you really look into the government story of that tragedy there is so many unanswered questions that I do question events relating to it more.

I can't believe that there are still "conspiracy theories" which are abound surrounding 9/11. I was in NY that fateful day, caught up in the unfolding horrors and I have utterly no doubt in my mind as to what happened.

I guess the "great" thing about conspiracy theories though is that due to a lack of evidence (Towers fell, Bin Laden's body offed into the ocean...) nothing can really be proven. Even the most hardline of skeptics would dismiss a photo for my aforementioned reasons.

[ac1]

I can't believe that there are still "conspiracy theories" which are abound surrounding 9/11. I was in NY that fateful day, caught up in the unfolding horrors and I have utterly no doubt in my mind as to what happened.

I guess the "great" thing about conspiracy theories though is that due to a lack of evidence (Towers fell, Bin Laden's body offed into the ocean...) nothing can really be proven. Even the most hardline of skeptics would dismiss a photo for my aforementioned reasons.


That must have been unreal being in New York that day! Scary stuff!

[ArabHibee]

I can't believe that there are still "conspiracy theories" which are abound surrounding 9/11. I was in NY that fateful day, caught up in the unfolding horrors and I have utterly no doubt in my mind as to what happened.

I guess the "great" thing about conspiracy theories though is that due to a lack of evidence (Towers fell, Bin Laden's body offed into the ocean...) nothing can really be proven. Even the most hardline of skeptics would dismiss a photo for my aforementioned reasons.

I don't think anyone is doubting that 9/11 never happened though? :confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think anyone is doubting that 9/11 never happened though? :confused:

... no, that it did happen :wink:

He means the theories that it was an inside job.

[ArabHibee]

... no, that it did happen :wink:

He means the theories that it was an inside job.

:doh:

You know what I mean!! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

:doh:

You know what I mean!! :greengrin

You're a woman. I have to know these things.....:greengrin

[ArabHibee]

You're a woman. I have to know these things.....:greengrin

:grr:

[Sir David Gray]

I think the Americans have made the correct decision not to release the images of Bin Laden's body, for the reasons that Obama gave.

I can imagine that the images would be extremely gruesome and, if released, there is a realistic chance that his supporters could be whipped up into a frenzy over it and the images of him could be used as a tool against the US.

As for the debate that's now raging as to whether or not it was correct for the US to shoot Bin Laden when he was unarmed, I absolutely cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone can criticise the Americans for shooting Bin Laden dead and I personally could not care less that he was unarmed.

I'm sitting watching Question Time just now and I'm honestly stunned at some of the criticism coming America's way, both from the audience and some panelists.

I support America's actions 100% over this whole operation and I am so pleased for the friends and families of the victims of 9/11/01, who will now hopefully feel a sense of closure after waiting nearly 10 years for some justice.

[lapsedhibee]

I think the Americans have made the correct decision not to release the images of Bin Laden's body, for the reasons that Obama gave.

I can imagine that the images would be extremely gruesome and, if released, there is a realistic chance that his supporters could be whipped up into a frenzy over it and the images of him could be used as a tool against the US.

As for the debate that's now raging as to whether or not it was correct for the US to shoot Bin Laden when he was unarmed, I absolutely cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone can criticise the Americans for shooting Bin Laden dead and I personally could not care less that he was unarmed.

I'm sitting watching Question Time just now and I'm honestly stunned at some of the criticism coming America's way, both from the audience and some panelists.

I support America's actions 100% over this whole operation and I am so pleased for the friends and families of the victims of 9/11/01, who will now hopefully feel a sense of closure after waiting nearly 10 years for some justice.

FFS Falkirk, Falkirk's still in Scotland (unfortunately). It's 11/9/01 :grr:

[khib70]

I think the Americans have made the correct decision not to release the images of Bin Laden's body, for the reasons that Obama gave.

I can imagine that the images would be extremely gruesome and, if released, there is a realistic chance that his supporters could be whipped up into a frenzy over it and the images of him could be used as a tool against the US.

As for the debate that's now raging as to whether or not it was correct for the US to shoot Bin Laden when he was unarmed, I absolutely cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone can criticise the Americans for shooting Bin Laden dead and I personally could not care less that he was unarmed.

I'm sitting watching Question Time just now and I'm honestly stunned at some of the criticism coming America's way, both from the audience and some panelists.

I support America's actions 100% over this whole operation and I am so pleased for the friends and families of the victims of 9/11/01, who will now hopefully feel a sense of closure after waiting nearly 10 years for some justice.
:agree:Well said that man.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think the Americans have made the correct decision not to release the images of Bin Laden's body, for the reasons that Obama gave.

I can imagine that the images would be extremely gruesome and, if released, there is a realistic chance that his supporters could be whipped up into a frenzy over it and the images of him could be used as a tool against the US.

As for the debate that's now raging as to whether or not it was correct for the US to shoot Bin Laden when he was unarmed, I absolutely cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone can criticise the Americans for shooting Bin Laden dead and I personally could not care less that he was unarmed.

I'm sitting watching Question Time just now and I'm honestly stunned at some of the criticism coming America's way, both from the audience and some panelists.

I support America's actions 100% over this whole operation and I am so pleased for the friends and families of the victims of 9/11/01, who will now hopefully feel a sense of closure after waiting nearly 10 years for some justice.

I tend to agree. Obama seems to have the sense that it's as much how you handle "victory" as defeat. Jt looks to me that he is trying to draw a line under the whole episode and is sensitive to the damage that rubbing their noses in it would cause.

[PeeJay]

Al Qaida has now confirmed the death of Bin Laden!

[Sir David Gray]

FFS Falkirk, Falkirk's still in Scotland (unfortunately). It's 11/9/01 :grr:

I'll let the Falkirk dig go this time. :wink:

I know it's 11/9/01 and I would never usually write the date with the month coming first. But because it happened in America, everyone refers to 9/11 (even in Britain) not 11/9 and it would have looked odd if I had written it that way. :agree:


Al Qaida has now confirmed the death of Bin Laden!

They also say they want his body to be handed over to his family.

I would quite happily supply each of them with a pair of flippers and goggles, if they fancy a spot of swimming in the shark infested Arabian Sea. :agree:

There's also been reports of evidence pointing towards Bin Laden planning an attack on America's rail network at some point this year to mark the 10 years since September 11th.

The fact that anyone is showing any degree of sympathy towards Bin Laden's fate is quite staggering.

[lapsedhibee]

But because it happened in America, everyone refers to 9/11 (even in Britain)
We're supposed to have been decimalised since 1970 something, yet still you Americophiles insist on your vulgar fractions. Being a modern peep, I prefer to think of the atrocity as 81.82%, even when I'm in America. :agree:



Al Qaida has now confirmed the death of Bin Laden!

Jeezo, they're in on it too! :faint:

[BEEJ]

Al Qaida has now confirmed the death of Bin Laden!
You can just picture all the conspiracy theorists deep in thought tonight trying desperately to find a vaguely plausible way to build this latest piece of news into their complex theories of intrigue and double-dealing.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

:greengrin