The Old Firm ..... Enough is enough !!!

[NAE NOOKIE]

Following the Neil Lennon bomb incident is it not time that Scottish football got rid of both Celtic and Rangers.

Forgetting the very good football reasons for getting rid of them. Their dominance of the game totally ruining it for supporters of everybody else and as a result killing interest in the game being the most obvious, lets look at the other off field reasons.

CELTIC

A raging paranoia against the SPL / SFA which has led to them taking such a beligerant stand that it almost looks like they want to run the game.

A manager who is so out of control that any other club would be looking to get rid of him, not backing his every move.

A set of fans who are every bit as sectarian as their opposite numbers and who when abroad seem to be there to support an Irish club, not a Scottish one.

A set of fans who held up a banner opposing any support from their club for last years poppy appeal.

A willingness to drag every last cent out of TV deals to the detriment of the game in general.


RANGERS

Yet another threat by UEFA to sanction the club for sectarian chants and songs, leading the rest of Europe to view Scotland as a backward, socially underdeveloped country.

Under investigation by HMRC for tax evasion.

Shamelessly cashing in on the clubs sectarian leanings with the Orange shirt thing a few years back and now having a go at the same fans they sold them to because UEFA have become involved.

The same approach to TV deals as Celtic.

Chuck in both clubs cringe worthy attempts to jump on the EPL gravy train and you are left asking the question.

Why the hell would any country want two clubs like that in its football set up ?

[TRC]

Don't forget Chick Young being a supporter of Clyde(code For huns) enough there for them to get rid of them!

[Removed]

Don't forget Chick Young being a supporter of Clyde(code For huns) enough there for them to get rid of them!

I thought he supported St Mirren :confused:

[down the slope]

Following the Neil Lennon bomb incident is it not time that Scottish football got rid of both Celtic and Rangers.

Forgetting the very good football reasons for getting rid of them. Their dominance of the game totally ruining it for supporters of everybody else and as a result killing interest in the game being the most obvious, lets look at the other off field reasons.

CELTIC

A raging paranoia against the SPL / SFA which has led to them taking such a beligerant stand that it almost looks like they want to run the game.

A manager who is so out of control that any other club would be looking to get rid of him, not backing his every move.

A set of fans who are every bit as sectarian as their opposite numbers and who when abroad seem to be there to support an Irish club, not a Scottish one.

A set of fans who held up a banner opposing any support from their club for last years poppy appeal.

A willingness to drag every last cent out of TV deals to the detriment of the game in general.


RANGERS

Yet another threat by UEFA to sanction the club for sectarian chants and songs, leading the rest of Europe to view Scotland as a backward, socially underdeveloped country.

Under investigation by HMRC for tax evasion.

Shamelessly cashing in on the clubs sectarian leanings with the Orange shirt thing a few years back and now having a go at the same fans they sold them to because UEFA have become involved.

The same approach to TV deals as Celtic.

Chuck in both clubs cringe worthy attempts to jump on the EPL gravy train and you are left asking the question.

Why the hell would any country want two clubs like that in its football set up ?

Agree with every word you said, only wish the rest of the teams would grow some and tell them tae get tae !.

[TRC]

I thought he supported St Mirren :confused:


Think you are right stand corrected although he supports neither he's a hun!

[Ed De Gramo]

Following the Neil Lennon bomb incident is it not time that Scottish football got rid of both Celtic and Rangers.

Forgetting the very good football reasons for getting rid of them. Their dominance of the game totally ruining it for supporters of everybody else and as a result killing interest in the game being the most obvious, lets look at the other off field reasons.

CELTIC

A raging paranoia against the SPL / SFA which has led to them taking such a beligerant stand that it almost looks like they want to run the game.

A manager who is so out of control that any other club would be looking to get rid of him, not backing his every move.

A set of fans who are every bit as sectarian as their opposite numbers and who when abroad seem to be there to support an Irish club, not a Scottish one.

A set of fans who held up a banner opposing any support from their club for last years poppy appeal.

A willingness to drag every last cent out of TV deals to the detriment of the game in general.


RANGERS

Yet another threat by UEFA to sanction the club for sectarian chants and songs, leading the rest of Europe to view Scotland as a backward, socially underdeveloped country.

Under investigation by HMRC for tax evasion.

Shamelessly cashing in on the clubs sectarian leanings with the Orange shirt thing a few years back and now having a go at the same fans they sold them to because UEFA have become involved.

The same approach to TV deals as Celtic.

Chuck in both clubs cringe worthy attempts to jump on the EPL gravy train and you are left asking the question.

Why the hell would any country want two clubs like that in its football set up ?

Top post mate!

Lets not forget their tried and tested approach to tapping up other SPL players. They unsettle them first, their press pals then give the players coverage and then they unsettle the football club the player belongs to....forcing a cut price sale.

The parasites should be punted....they are truly the cancer of the Scottish game.

[Removed]

Think you are right stand corrected although he supports neither he's a hun!

:agree: thinks it's all a big joke. Canny stand the wee turd.

[JE89]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

[Removed]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

Pish. Imo.

Punt them and we have an exciting league where there is genuine competition and crowds will rise. Argument been done to death on here already. It won't happen unfortunately.

[zlatan]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

I disagree, but even if this was the case, who cares? Us 'provincial' clubs achieve nothing in Europe anyway, the standard can't get much worse and for what? Playing second fiddle to those increasingly tedious ****merchants for years on end.

If they disappear we all of a sudden have a league anyone could win, clubs have a better chance of holding on to promising youngsters for longer and crowds would increase if any club from 6 or 7 are pushing for a league title. Who cares what outsiders think (after spending a year in England they are barely aware it exists as it is) if we have something to be excited about every season?

[The_Sauz]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.
The only thing that will take us down the pan......is the Old firm!
What makes you think season tickets will go down? Do you think fans from all the SPL clubs buy season tickets to watch the old firm......don't think so!

Celtic and Rangers are a cancer to the whole off Scotland & Scottish football, and the only way to heal our game, is to remove the tumour from society :agree:

[CB_NO3]

Scottish football would go down the pan. We would get no TV deal, no sponsorship. The prize pots would get slashed by about 60%. We would never get any teams in the champions league.

[GreenCastle]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

The league has been going down the pan since their dominance ? :confused:

They have become stronger and made the competition a joke.

No team outside the old firm have won the league in about 26 years - any other league like that in the world ?

The league is a joke - and is falling behind the rest of the world every day.

Big changes are needed in the structure of Scottish Football and if included getting rid of the cancer called the Old Firm then I wouldn't be bothered one bit - would rather a competitive league where anyone can win it each year.

[GreenCastle]

Scottish football would go down the pan. We would get no TV deal, no sponsorship. The prize pots would get slashed by about 60%. We would never get any teams in the champions league.

We hardly have any teams in the Champions League anyway ?

The t.v deal is all set up for the Old Firm anyway...not like we benefit much from it.

[Fife-Hibee]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

I know a few folk that dont go to the games involving the ugly sisters' they cant stand the sight of them' or everything they stand for. Time to get rid !!!

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

OF or not, Scottish football is already down the pan, completely disillusioned with it all.

[marinello59]

Where are we going to send them? I did think we could ship them off to Libya whilst the authorities there were distracted but the Libyan people have probably suffered enough. Anybody got any contacts in North Korea?

[greenginger]

Where are we going to send them? I did think we could ship them off to Libya whilst the authorities there were distracted but the Libyan people have probably suffered enough. Anybody got any contacts in North Korea?



Send them to the same place Third Lanark went. OBLIVION !

[CelticEnd]

A raging paranoia against the SPL / SFA which has led to them taking such a beligerant stand that it almost looks like they want to run the game.



Celtic have appealed two decisions and won both... Should they just sit back and let the SFA do what they want and issue bans which are against their own rules to a manager they're probably paying a seven figure salary to?



A manager who is so out of control that any other club would be looking to get rid of him, not backing his every move.


Derek Adams, Craig Brown...?



A set of fans who are every bit as sectarian as their opposite numbers and who when abroad seem to be there to support an Irish club, not a Scottish one.


Where is the evidence of this? When have Celtic ever been charged for sectarian singing etc? Care to enlighten me?



A set of fans who held up a banner opposing any support from their club for last years poppy appeal.


Agree or disagree but since when has a peaceful protest been a crime? Isn't that what we're told the armed forces are fighting wars for? To preserve our freedom?


PS: What about the racist chanting from Hibs fans towards Rudi Skacel?

Selective memories!

What is happening to Neil Lennon is an absolute disgrace. Every SPL team and every football fan in this country should be doing everything they can to offer him support.

[down the slope]

Celtic have appealed two decisions and won both... Should they just sit back and let the SFA do what they want and issue bans which are against their own rules to a manager they're probably paying a seven figure salary to?



Derek Adams, Craig Brown...?



Where is the evidence of this? When have Celtic ever been charged for sectarian singing etc? Care to enlighten me?



Agree or disagree but since when has a peaceful protest been a crime? Isn't that what we're told the armed forces are fighting wars for? To preserve our freedom?


PS: What about the racist chanting from Hibs fans towards Rudi Skacel?

Selective memories!

What is happening to Neil Lennon is an absolute disgrace. Every SPL team and every football fan in this country should be doing everything they can to offer him support.

This is exactly why we should punt you lot. I would not care if i never saw the OF again.

[Barney McGrew]

This is exactly why we should punt you lot. I would not care if i never saw the OF again.

:top marks

[CallumLaidlaw]

Celtic have appealed two decisions and won both... Should they just sit back and let the SFA do what they want and issue bans which are against their own rules to a manager they're probably paying a seven figure salary to?



Derek Adams, Craig Brown...?



Where is the evidence of this? When have Celtic ever been charged for sectarian singing etc? Care to enlighten me?



Agree or disagree but since when has a peaceful protest been a crime? Isn't that what we're told the armed forces are fighting wars for? To preserve our freedom?


PS: What about the racist chanting from Hibs fans towards Rudi Skacel?

Selective memories!

What is happening to Neil Lennon is an absolute disgrace. Every SPL team and every football fan in this country should be doing everything they can to offer him support.

Exactly. Celtic SHOULDN'T have won those appeals. But surprise surprise, the sfa panicked.

So you are saying that because Celtic fans haven't been charged, then they've never done it!?! Open your eyes man!

You are saying the armed forces are fighting for freedom yet your lot don't want to support them so you can have that freedom. Kind of a contradiction, no?

I agree that Neil Lennon doesn't deserve what has happened. There is no place fr that anywhere never mind football

[The Gorf]

Following
Why the hell would any country want two clubs like that in its football set up ?


My concern is 100,000 knuckle draggers with nothing to do on a Sat/Sun. Glasgow would not be a nice place to be. Where would they go? Who would they support? And if they all changed to StMidden or the like. Would they then not turn those clubs into the same p--h?:confused:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Celtic have appealed two decisions and won both... Should they just sit back and let the SFA do what they want and issue bans which are against their own rules to a manager they're probably paying a seven figure salary to?



Derek Adams, Craig Brown...?



Where is the evidence of this? When have Celtic ever been charged for sectarian singing etc? Care to enlighten me?



Agree or disagree but since when has a peaceful protest been a crime? Isn't that what we're told the armed forces are fighting wars for? To preserve our freedom?


PS: What about the racist chanting from Hibs fans towards Rudi Skacel?

Selective memories!

What is happening to Neil Lennon is an absolute disgrace. Every SPL team and every football fan in this country should be doing everything they can to offer him support.

"What about"

Two words that sum up the Old Firm perfectly. Don't bother about the religious discrimination or the support for terrorists, as long as someone else chants a bad song it's alright.

They were born out of a sectarian society that they are now trying to persist for financial benefit, long after the real problems (ie religious discrimination) have died away. Scotland would be a better place if neither club existed.

[Sylar]

Celtic have appealed two decisions and won both... Should they just sit back and let the SFA do what they want and issue bans which are against their own rules to a manager they're probably paying a seven figure salary to?

But these were merely a reduction in the length of ban, based on a legal loophole about use of the word "consecutive". Hardly an exoneration.


Derek Adams, Craig Brown...?

Remind me at which game Craig Brown got in an opposing managers face screaming bloody murder at him, or manhandled a fourth official before launch a tirade of vitriol at the guy? Oh, and Derek Adams isn't an SPL manager.


Where is the evidence of this? When have Celtic ever been charged for sectarian singing etc? Care to enlighten me?

Aye, big bad Rangers, eh? "We dinnae dae it, coz wu'v never been charged for it" - awa' an bile yer heid - ignorance is as much a problem in tackling this issue as the morons in your support who frequently sing pro-IRA, anti-protestant nonsense.


Agree or disagree but since when has a peaceful protest been a crime? Isn't that what we're told the armed forces are fighting wars for? To preserve our freedom?

Were it not for those who died in the first and second World Wars, you're right, you wouldn't have that freedom to open your under-educated collective and spout forth such ironic and ungrateful bile. The Poppy Appeal might benefit those who currently serve on our front lines, but these soldiers aren't there on a political ideal - they're there to protect the very freedoms you so happily utilise as a vehicle to denounce them.


PS: What about the racist chanting from Hibs fans towards Rudi Skacel?

Selective memories!

I don't defend anyone who sings the Skacel song, as it is in rather bad taste, but which "race" of people do refugees belong to? I don't mean that as a defense, but dear God it's getting so easy to attach the word "racist" to something these days.


What is happening to Neil Lennon is an absolute disgrace. Every SPL team and every football fan in this country should be doing everything they can to offer him support.

Agree and disagree - it is an absolute disgrace, but every other SPL team should be steering well clear of getting involved and let the police and investigative bodies do their jobs.

[CallumLaidlaw]

But these were merely a reduction in the length of ban, based on a legal loophole about use of the word "consecutive". Hardly an exoneration.



Remind me at which game Craig Brown got in an opposing managers face screaming bloody murder at him, or manhandled a fourth official before launch a tirade of vitriol at the guy? Oh, and Derek Adams isn't an SPL manager.



Aye, big bad Rangers, eh? "We dinnae dae it, coz wu'v never been charged for it" - awa' an bile yer heid - ignorance is as much a problem in tackling this issue as the morons in your support who frequently sing pro-IRA, anti-protestant nonsense.



Were it not for those who died in the first and second World Wars, you're right, you wouldn't have that freedom to open your under-educated collective and spout forth such ironic and ungrateful bile. The Poppy Appeal might benefit those who currently serve on our front lines, but these soldiers aren't there on a political ideal - they're there to protect the very freedoms you so happily utilise as a vehicle to denounce them.



I don't defend anyone who sings the Skacel song, as it is in rather bad taste, but which "race" of people do refugees belong to? I don't mean that as a defense, but dear God it's getting so easy to attach the word "racist" to something these days.



Agree and disagree - it is an absolute disgrace, but every other SPL team should be steering well clear of getting involved and let the police and investigative bodies do their jobs.

:top marks You put it much better than I did

[Part/Time Supporter]

PS: What about the racist chanting from Hibs fans towards Rudi Skacel?



ps Celtic FC found that song so abhorrent that they signed the only football player associated with it.

[heretoday]

The usual talking heads were wheeled out on the radio this morning to comment on the latest atrocity.

Henry McLeish seems to have rehabilitated himself doesn't he? No matter.

The phrase "mindless minority" was duly trotted out. When I hear that I know the speaker either has no grasp of the situation, or has a vested interest in Rangers or Celtic. Someone else said a "twin-stream working party" is on the problem. Yeah.

Close down both grounds until the fans learn to behave like decent human beings. If they were dance halls or pubs they'd have been closed years ago.

Won't happen though. Nothing will be done unfortunately.

[JE89]

The standard can't get much worse and for what?

If they disappear we all of a sudden have a league anyone could win, clubs have a better chance of holding on to promising youngsters for longer and crowds would increase if any club from 6 or 7 are pushing for a league title.

Standard would get worse. We would be given even less TV money, less TV time IMO as Sky Sports/ESPN would a offer much, much lower package for TV and even if distributed evenly would be less than we get at the moment I'd imagine.

The second paragraph could be applied to the First Division in Scotland, which I reckon the SPL would only be slightly better in ten year time without the OF.



What makes you think season tickets will go down? Do you think fans from all the SPL clubs buy season tickets to watch the old firm......don't think so!


No but when I had my season ticket before move to Aberdeen for Uni, the games I really looked forward to where Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. If when I return from Uni, the league didn't accommodate the OF, I would seriously considering not buying one and going to the game as I choose. Also the prices for the Cat A matches are more, if we only had one(or two actually) Cat A matches per season would this mean a decrease in the price of season tickets... and therefore less money going into Hibs?


Scottish football would go down the pan. We would get no TV deal, no sponsorship. The prize pots would get slashed by about 60%. We would never get any teams in the champions league.

:agree:

[Diclonius]

Two words that sum up the Old Firm perfectly. Don't bother about the religious discrimination or the support for terrorists, as long as someone else chants a bad song it's alright.

Nail on the head.

For as long as each half of the parasite trots out the tried and tested "well we arny bad uz them ken" line, nothing will be done.

[JE89]

The phrase "mindless minority" was duly trotted out. When I hear that I know the speaker either has no grasp of the situation, or has a vested interest in Rangers or Celtic. Someone else said a "twin-stream working party" is on the problem. Yeah.

Close down both grounds until the fans learn to behave like decent human beings. If they were dance halls or pubs they'd have been closed years ago.


Do you actually think the majority of Rangers fans want Neil Lennon murdered? I think not. Of course it is a minority.

If they should be closed down then surely we should be as well for racist chanting? Believe it or not there are actually OF football supporters who go to watch the teams they love for footballing reasons and hate all the same bigoted crap we hate too.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Standard would get worse. We would be given even less TV money, less TV time IMO as Sky Sports/ESPN would a offer much, much lower package for TV and even if distributed evenly would be less than we get at the moment I'd imagine.

The second paragraph could be applied to the First Division in Scotland, which I reckon the SPL would only be slightly better in ten year time without the OF.



No but when I had my season ticket before move to Aberdeen for Uni, the games I really looked forward to where Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. If when I return from Uni, the league didn't accommodate the OF, I would seriously considering not buying one and going to the game as I choose. Also the prices for the Cat A matches are more, if we only had one(or two actually) Cat A matches per season would this mean a decrease in the price of season tickets... and therefore less money going into Hibs?

Money isn't everything. The standard of English football is no higher than it was 30 years ago, even though their top division is drowning in money.

Frankly all a marginal cut in the revenue for Hibs would mean is a cut in the wages for the (very average) senior players at the club. Same goes for every other SPL club. If the club has any sense it would continue to invest at the same level in youth development.

[JE89]

Money isn't everything. The standard of English football is no higher than it was 30 years ago, even though their top division is drowning in money.

Frankly all a marginal cut in the revenue for Hibs would mean is a cut in the wages for the (very average) senior players at the club. Same goes for every other SPL club. If the club has any sense it would continue to invest at the same level in youth development.

Your are correct, yet in those days there wasn't the lucrative offers from elsewhere that we have today. If a player was offered the chance to play in the Scottish top flight for £2,000 per week but was offered to play in England's Second tier for £8,000 per week, I know what I would choose.

[PeeJay]

Money isn't everything. The standard of English football is no higher than it was 30 years ago, even though their top division is drowning in money.


Do you really think that's true? :confused: English football has progressed immensely since those days, surely? Technical skill, athleticism, tactics - generally speaking - are all far better than in the days of "kick and rush", something Kaiser Franz loved to refer to at the drop of a hat when talk turned to the English game over here. The influx of "foreigners" alone has raised the level, I feel.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Your are correct, yet in those days there wasn't the lucrative offers from elsewhere that we have today. If a player was offered the chance to play in the Scottish top flight for £2,000 per week but was offered to play in England's Second tier for £8,000 per week, I know what I would choose.

So? The world doesn't stop spinning on its axis because Craig Conway decides to play for Hull City (to give a hypothetical example). If anything that would be beneficial for the Scottish game as a whole, because it means that Dundee United then have to develop a new player to replace him.

The Scottish game would return to something more like it's natural state in the 1960s and 1970s, when almost every talented non-OF (and some of the OF as well) player went south.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Do you really think that's true? :confused: English football has progressed immensely since those days, surely? Technical skill, athleticism, tactics - generally speaking - are all far better than in the days of "kick and rush", something Kaiser Franz loved to refer to at the drop of a hat when talk turned to the English game over here. The influx of "foreigners" alone has raised the level, I feel.

Last time I checked, English clubs were winning the European Cup just about ever year in the late 70s and early 80s. And those teams had next to no players from outside GB and Ireland. The "kick and rush" jibes apply more to the period after English football was banned from Europe.

[JE89]

So? The world doesn't stop spinning on its axis because Craig Conway decides to play for Hull City (to give a hypothetical example). If anything that would be beneficial for the Scottish game as a whole, because it means that Dundee United then have to develop a new player to replace him.

The Scottish game would return to something more like it's natural state in the 1960s and 1970s, when almost every talented non-OF (and some of the OF as well) player went south.

Higher quality players would move down south, like Conway as you said, yes. DUFC would indeed have to develop a player to replace him but that doesn't mean the said player would be reach the a level where he is good enough to compete in todays game. Maybe with this in mind, we would have a Scottish league of Scottish player brought through by our clubs, but they wouldn't reach the quality of the players moving down south and therefore the Scottish game would get worse. The youngsters coming through would help the national team but then as soon as they get an offer from England, they'd almost certainly leave. Instead of a selling team, we be a selling country.

I don't know too much about 60s/70s Scottish football so can't really comment. What it seems it we would have a more competitive league made up of far less talented players than we have today and the quality of football would be significantly lower.

[zlatan]

Standard would get worse. We would be given even less TV money, less TV time IMO as Sky Sports/ESPN would a offer much, much lower package for TV and even if distributed evenly would be less than we get at the moment I'd imagine.

The second paragraph could be applied to the First Division in Scotland, which I reckon the SPL would only be slightly better in ten year time without the OF.

No but when I had my season ticket before move to Aberdeen for Uni, the games I really looked forward to where Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. If when I return from Uni, the league didn't accommodate the OF, I would seriously considering not buying one and going to the game as I choose. Also the prices for the Cat A matches are more, if we only had one(or two actually) Cat A matches per season would this mean a decrease in the price of season tickets... and therefore less money going into Hibs?

With the first paragraph, none of that would bother me if it meant we were going into a league campaign, no matter how deprived of quality, thinking we could win it. Dunfermline play Raith this weekend in a huge top of the table game, over 10,000 tickets have been sold for that. Imagine we were playing Hearts in similar circumstances for the SPL? Couldn't give a monkeys if we were watching 22 Ali Dias running around, it would be sold out and the atmosphere would be incredible.

[Removed]

With the first paragraph, none of that would bother me if it meant we were going into a league campaign, no matter how deprived of quality, thinking we could win it. Dunfermline play Raith this weekend in a huge top of the table game, over 10,000 tickets have been sold for that. Imagine we were playing Hearts in similar circumstances for the SPL? Couldn't give a monkeys if we were watching 22 Ali Dias running around, it would be sold out and the atmosphere would be incredible.

:agree: get folk off their backsides and out the pubs back into the grounds. Make it worth buying a ST. Give us our game back. Sacking all the sky/espn Scottish football pundits would be an added bonus :thumbsup:

[PeeJay]

Last time I checked, English clubs were winning the European Cup just about ever year in the late 70s and early 80s. And those teams had next to no players from outside GB and Ireland. The "kick and rush" jibes apply more to the period after English football was banned from Europe.

Fair point, but I was referring more to the standard of football generally, not the amount of trophies being won - and kick and rush surely goes back a lot longer than you suggest?

[Hibercelona]

People just don't get it.

The men in charge will never get rid of rantic, because they're just as rotten to the core themselves. Most of them will be a follower of one or the other, so its pointless for us to keep saying "Isn't it about time...." It will never ever happen, regardless of how rotten they both are.

They'll always get away with murder, they'll always get things their own way and nothing will ever get done about it.

:brickwall

[JE89]

With the first paragraph, none of that would bother me if it meant we were going into a league campaign, no matter how deprived of quality, thinking we could win it. Dunfermline play Raith this weekend in a huge top of the table game, over 10,000 tickets have been sold for that. Imagine we were playing Hearts in similar circumstances for the SPL? Couldn't give a monkeys if we were watching 22 Ali Dias running around, it would be sold out and the atmosphere would be incredible.

The amount of abuse our current players get I can't imagine what it would be like losing these games. Imagine players we are releasing at the moment, Nish, Rankin, Smith for example, were the good players. Now that would grim.

[Bishop Hibee]

Sadly I don't think they'll go anywhere unless it's to a Sky run Euro League and that seems a fairly distant prospect.

Chairman and owners of the non-OF clubs need to band together and say enough is enough, banning OF away supporters if necessary and influencing the SPL and SFA of which they are members. We can go round and round in circles as to which songs are allowed or not allowed but a start would be to stamp out the overtly sectarian ones e.g. "No Pope of Rome" and "Roamin' in the Gloamin'" (NOT the Harry Lauder lyrics although that's pish too :wink:) and the polis should lift anyone in the ground giving it "dirty orange/fenian b".

[marinello59]

With the first paragraph, none of that would bother me if it meant we were going into a league campaign, no matter how deprived of quality, thinking we could win it. Dunfermline play Raith this weekend in a huge top of the table game, over 10,000 tickets have been sold for that. Imagine we were playing Hearts in similar circumstances for the SPL? Couldn't give a monkeys if we were watching 22 Ali Dias running around, it would be sold out and the atmosphere would be incredible.

So we just give up on all thoughts of Scottish Clubs ever having a realistic chance of winning European ties on a regular basis? Surely when we pay our money to see top flight football we expect to see players doing something that us mere mortals can only dream of. Simply giving up on all thoughts of achieving excellence in this country seems to lack ambition to say the least.
And an SPL title win without the Old Firm having taken part? (Presumably because they are elsewhere.) Who could truthfully call themselves Scottish champions if they weren't actually tested against the best in Scotland?

[DaveF]

One of the main drivers for NOT buying a season ticket for my son (as well as money!) is the fact that I don't want him subjected to OF bigotry 4 times a season.

So no OF would probably lead to a ST increase (in my house) rather than a decrease.

[heretoday]

Do you actually think the majority of Rangers fans want Neil Lennon murdered? I think not. Of course it is a minority.

If they should be closed down then surely we should be as well for racist chanting? Believe it or not there are actually OF football supporters who go to watch the teams they love for footballing reasons and hate all the same bigoted crap we hate too.

No I don't think they want him murdered. I'm speaking in general terms about the ongoing sectarian problem. If you stand next to the away support at a Hibs/Rangers game you'd take some convincing that the songs were coming from a "mindless minority" of fans.

"Huge minority" would be more accurate. In my book, 49% of 100 is a minority - but a huge one!

[21.05.2016]

:agree:

The old firm is the cancer of Scottish football. Their bigotted fans and secterian rivalry drags Scotland through the mud and makes us a complete laughing stock. I don't want Scotland to be associated with the extreme level of bigatory that these two bring.

[JE89]

No I don't think they want him murdered. I'm speaking in general terms about the ongoing sectarian problem. If you stand next to the away support at a Hibs/Rangers game you'd take some convincing that the songs were coming from a "mindless minority" of fans.

"Huge minority" would be more accurate. In my book, 49% of 100 is a minority - but a huge one!

In many ways you've made a fair point, yet you have to remember that fans that go to away games don't represent the majority. Even if 2,500 Rangers supporters sang sectarian songs at ER that is still a minority of the 50,000 or so that attend Ibrox, where, yes sectarian singing still occurs. But to say they should be banned for this is pretty unfair on those who attend game to see their team.

If you sit at the away end at Tynie, I'd say a similar 'huge majority' sing the Skacel song, should I and the rest of the Hibs fans singing about our club and not the racist Skacel chant be banned for sitting next to folk who think it's acceptable to sing this?

[lyonhibs]

One shouldn't really laugh, but it:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/scottish-premier-league-to-award-three-points-for-murder-201104203738/

On a serious note, people are kidding themselves if they think the average home attendances for Hibs would rise if Rangers and Celtic were replaced by - say - Dundee and Partick Thistle, unless ticket prices dropped proportionally to the drop in quality on show, and we know that isn't going to happen.

As mentioned elsewhere, imagine if Nish et all were the good players at our club, because we couldn't afford anything better - not that we're exactly bathing in asses milk at the moment, but it could be worse from a financial perspective.

[Greentinted]

One shouldn't really laugh, but it:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/scottish-premier-league-to-award-three-points-for-murder-201104203738/

Sadly though, this is the outsider's perception of SCOTTISH football. Being tarred with that tainted brush holds little appeal for me. All the arguments for keeping them are outweighed every time by their increasingly ******ed, embarrassing, verminous behaviour. OFGTF as soon as possible!

[ArabHibee]

Sadly though, this is the outsider's perception of SCOTTISH football. Being tarred with that tainted brush holds little appeal for me. All the arguments for keeping them are outweighed every time by their increasingly ******ed, embarrassing, verminous behaviour. OFGTF as soon as possible!
:agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

Where is the evidence of this? When have Celtic ever been charged for sectarian singing etc? Care to enlighten me?



your lot might not have been charged, but you can't deny that it happens.

As my name suggests I live near Pitlochry, and I will tell you that my eyes and ears don't lie. "We love the IRA, FTQ and the UDA" was belting out in and around the pubs when the Celtc game at Inverness was cancelled. Terrorising locals and tourist with bottles and glasses being thrown about the main street. And as for the Celtc fan who is not worth calling human that did a crap in the changing room of a clothes shop in town.

I hope I have enlightend you to the impecable behaviour of the (self proclaimed) best fans in the world. If you all went to the end of the earth and fell off I would be delighted. **** the lot of you.

:soapbox: over

[Speedway]

Scottish football would go down the pan. We would get no TV deal, no sponsorship. The prize pots would get slashed by about 60%. We would never get any teams in the champions league.

As opposed to the blossoming structure it is now you mean? The SPL is a dead horse. Removing it's mouth and its erse doesn't make it any more dead.



Where are we going to send them? I did think we could ship them off to Libya whilst the authorities there were distracted but the Libyan people have probably suffered enough. Anybody got any contacts in North Korea?

How about Turkey, hatred goes down well in the footie over there.


With the first paragraph, none of that would bother me if it meant we were going into a league campaign, no matter how deprived of quality, thinking we could win it. Dunfermline play Raith this weekend in a huge top of the table game, over 10,000 tickets have been sold for that. Imagine we were playing Hearts in similar circumstances for the SPL? Couldn't give a monkeys if we were watching 22 Ali Dias running around, it would be sold out and the atmosphere would be incredible.

Ali Dia. Now there was a player.


We all know that money is the only motivating factor. The OF equal money (although the government could just pay the giro's straight to the clubs and save themselves some admin) and as a result, nothing will be done.

[Joe Baker II]

In many ways you've made a fair point, yet you have to remember that fans that go to away games don't represent the majority. Even if 2,500 Rangers supporters sang sectarian songs at ER that is still a minority of the 50,000 or so that attend Ibrox, where, yes sectarian singing still occurs. But to say they should be banned for this is pretty unfair on those who attend game to see their team.

If you sit at the away end at Tynie, I'd say a similar 'huge majority' sing the Skacel song, should I and the rest of the Hibs fans singing about our club and not the racist Skacel chant be banned for sitting next to folk who think it's acceptable to sing this?

It was a minority at Tynecastle who sang the Skacel song, although I agree one might not have thought so hearing it from elsewhere. As with all singing it does not take that many to be construed as a majority, 50-100 fans can make a lot of noise.

Agree with all the rest of your comments in this thread by the way.

[Keith_M]

First off, Neil Lennon really gets on my Mammaries but he definitely doesn't deserve this.

Whilst this is the absolute extreme of OF sectarianism, it's unfortunately not a surprise. These extremists, bigots and terrorist sympathisers wear their support for either side of the OF as a badge of honour and, in their eyes, as a sign of which side of the sectarian divide they inhabit.

There is NO silent majority. Those who claim to be ordinary supporters have seen the songs they sing and associated prejudices as part and parcel of the team that they support. I fully believe that a lot of them genuinely are not so prejudiced in their day-to-day lives, but that's surely no excuse.

I'd already had it with the OF years ago and recent events haven't changed my view. I wish the rest of the clubs would show some bottle and form their own league but I don't believe that'll ever happen.

It's a bit sad that there are people on here that are content to be like the wee dog at his master's table, waiting to be thrown a couple of scraps. "We're just not good enough to go it alone". Get a grip!

[FromTheCapital]

Following the Neil Lennon bomb incident is it not time that Scottish football got rid of both Celtic and Rangers.

Forgetting the very good football reasons for getting rid of them. Their dominance of the game totally ruining it for supporters of everybody else and as a result killing interest in the game being the most obvious, lets look at the other off field reasons.

CELTIC

A raging paranoia against the SPL / SFA which has led to them taking such a beligerant stand that it almost looks like they want to run the game.

A manager who is so out of control that any other club would be looking to get rid of him, not backing his every move.

A set of fans who are every bit as sectarian as their opposite numbers and who when abroad seem to be there to support an Irish club, not a Scottish one.

A set of fans who held up a banner opposing any support from their club for last years poppy appeal.

A willingness to drag every last cent out of TV deals to the detriment of the game in general.


RANGERS

Yet another threat by UEFA to sanction the club for sectarian chants and songs, leading the rest of Europe to view Scotland as a backward, socially underdeveloped country.

Under investigation by HMRC for tax evasion.

Shamelessly cashing in on the clubs sectarian leanings with the Orange shirt thing a few years back and now having a go at the same fans they sold them to because UEFA have become involved.

The same approach to TV deals as Celtic.

Chuck in both clubs cringe worthy attempts to jump on the EPL gravy train and you are left asking the question.

Why the hell would any country want two clubs like that in its football set up ?
:top marks

[Speedway]

Blue Square League have expressed interest.

Rangers have insisted it's changed to Blue Nose League.

[Joe Baker II]

One of the main drivers for NOT buying a season ticket for my son (as well as money!) is the fact that I don't want him subjected to OF bigotry 4 times a season.

So no OF would probably lead to a ST increase (in my house) rather than a decrease.

There is a minority that claim they feel like you I do concede which I why I think Hibs could do more to offer season tickets excluding Rangers, Celtic and Hearts.

But suspect for some of these, this claim about subjecting others to "bigotry" is not the real reason, may be an excuse as much as anything. For example does one see them walking out when Skacel/Edinburgh song sung - no I suspect!

And attendance figures would suggest otherwise, extremely unusual (though not unheard of I admit) that the 5-6 games versus Rangers/Celtic/Hearts not the highest attended games of the season. 8,400 for Hamilton/9000 for St Mirren v 12/13000 for OF in January this year for example, and these 2 OF games were live on TV/not great times and were played when we were rubbish.

[Speedway]

Andreas Thom was some player though eh? so it's not all bad.

[Joe Baker II]

We hardly have any teams in the Champions League anyway ? The t.v deal is all set up for the Old Firm anyway...not like we benefit much from it.

Scotland had 3 teams in last 16 of the CHampions league 3 years running in recent times.

I agree tv deal imperfect but OF not the sole reason for this.

[Part/Time Supporter]

There is a minority that claim they feel like you I do concede which I why I think Hibs could do more to offer season tickets excluding Rangers, Celtic and Hearts.

But suspect for some of these, this claim about subjecting others to "bigotry" is not the real reason, may be an excuse as much as anything. For example does one see them walking out when Skacel/Edinburgh song sung - no I suspect!

And attendance figures would suggest otherwise, extremely unusual (though not unheard of I admit) that the 5-6 games versus Rangers/Celtic/Hearts not the highest attended games of the season. 8,400 for Hamilton/9000 for St Mirren v 12/13000 for OF in January this year for example, and these 2 OF games were live on TV/not great times and were played when we were rubbish.

Hibs' smallest league attendance this season (in terms of the number of fans in the home sections) was the game v Rangers in January. Total attendance was 11300 of which ~3700 were Rangers fans (their end wasn't quite sold out). It would be hard to quantify but there is definitely a minority of Hibs fans who regularly don't turn up for OF games. The only high attendance v the OF this season was the first game v Rangers, which was the first game played with the new stand open.

The derby has generally been the biggest draw unless the Jambos have been on one of their "boycotts".

[SlickShoes]

Celtc fans everywhere are now playing the victim.

Celebrity fans are saying they should leave Scottish football.

I don't think many of them understand that this stuff only exists so disgustingly in Glasgow. They don't realise it's rangers AND celtc that have the problems they think its one or the other and its never them.

Robert Florence from BBC1's Burnistoun posted this on twitter:

Here's the sad truth of Scotland. Celtic fans are always vigilant. Many quiet about who they support. Changing surname to sound less Irish.

This is the consensus from everyone I know that supports Celtc, and they just don't get it. They are the problem as well as rangers!

Unless both of them leave this will never end, this garbage is by far the worse thing about living in Glasgow.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Following the Neil Lennon bomb incident is it not time that Scottish football got rid of both Celtic and Rangers.

Forgetting the very good football reasons for getting rid of them. Their dominance of the game totally ruining it for supporters of everybody else and as a result killing interest in the game being the most obvious, lets look at the other off field reasons.

CELTIC

A raging paranoia against the SPL / SFA which has led to them taking such a beligerant stand that it almost looks like they want to run the game.

A manager who is so out of control that any other club would be looking to get rid of him, not backing his every move.

A set of fans who are every bit as sectarian as their opposite numbers and who when abroad seem to be there to support an Irish club, not a Scottish one.

A set of fans who held up a banner opposing any support from their club for last years poppy appeal.

A willingness to drag every last cent out of TV deals to the detriment of the game in general.


RANGERS

Yet another threat by UEFA to sanction the club for sectarian chants and songs, leading the rest of Europe to view Scotland as a backward, socially underdeveloped country.

Under investigation by HMRC for tax evasion.

Shamelessly cashing in on the clubs sectarian leanings with the Orange shirt thing a few years back and now having a go at the same fans they sold them to because UEFA have become involved.

The same approach to TV deals as Celtic.

Chuck in both clubs cringe worthy attempts to jump on the EPL gravy train and you are left asking the question.

Why the hell would any country want two clubs like that in its football set up ?


Reading your post, it looks like you have more a dislike for Celtic than of the other mob.

Do Rangers fans make themselves out to be SCOTTISH? Never appears that way to me. Red Hand and English flags hardly spouts out a Scottish thing to do.

Both as bad.

[Bristolhibby]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

I think you are right.

However what should happen, is a more equal distribution of SPL wealth.

The jump between 2nd and 3rd is incredible prize fund is laughable. The screw that they have on Scottish Football ensures that "we" are "kept in place".

How good would it be to be able to compete with the old firm regularly?

All I am asking for is fairness. Screwing the life out of the league is no good for Scottish football.

I dont want them gone, just want them to accept that they currently are a detriment to Scottish Football, and have to take a cut in revenue for the good of Scottish Football.

However they are businesses and they will tell us to take a hike.

But we all know what would be best for football.

J

[The_Sauz]

Standard would get worse. We would be given even less TV money, less TV time IMO as Sky Sports/ESPN would a offer much, much lower package for TV and even if distributed evenly would be less than we get at the moment I'd imagine.

The second paragraph could be applied to the First Division in Scotland, which I reckon the SPL would only be slightly better in ten year time without the OF.



No but when I had my season ticket before move to Aberdeen for Uni, the games I really looked forward to where Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. If when I return from Uni, the league didn't accommodate the OF, I would seriously considering not buying one and going to the game as I choose. Also the prices for the Cat A matches are more, if we only had one(or two actually) Cat A matches per season would this mean a decrease in the price of season tickets... and therefore less money going into Hibs?



:agree:

I agree losing TV money would be bad, but how much are we talking about, and who do you think will loose more....a club or a pub!
No TV games means going back to our roots and playing on a Saturday at 3pm just like we did when we were in the 1st division and none of this sat/sun 12 o'clock crap or even 6pm during the week.

When Hibs were in the first division, our gates went up because we had a better chance to win something and the league was more competitive :agree:
So the SPL without the OF would be a more competitive league and teams like Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs would start to fill up away ends around the country.

[Greentinted]

I agree losing TV money would be bad, but how much are we talking about, and who do you think will loose more....a club or a pub!
No TV games means going back to our roots and playing on a Saturday at 3pm just like we did when we were in the 1st division and none of this sat/sun 12 o'clock crap or even 6pm during the week.

When Hibs were in the first division, our gates went up because we had a better chance to win something and the league was more competitive :agree:
So the SPL without the OF would be a more competitive league and teams like Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs would start to fill up away ends around the country.

:agree:
In the following season I worked at Dunfermline and they were winning consistently in front of large crowds. I recall a fixture v St Mirren (who were also playing winning football) which was attended by around 11000 in the 1st division (capacity of EEP was 12810 at the time). Both clubs were promoted and the corresponding SPL fixture was watched by a shade over 4000. In the same season Dundee, Falkirk, Partick, Raith and even Livingston brought sizable supports to East End

Winning teams in a competitive league is an attractive option, much more so I'd say than the race for (a poor) 3rd place in a dead division controlled by and for the maintenance of a duopolistic hegemony. The myth that we need them is merely brainwashing and continually rinsing an already false footballing consciousness. They have no absolute right to dominate other than that which is self-appointed

I'd suggest that after 3-5 seasons or so, they (The OF) would be a distant memory. The various trophies all having been won by various clubs, new European experiences and perhaps a new enlightened media approach to all things Scottish Football. All it needs is a strong collective will to change things and allow it to flourish. All the naysayers have is a hypothesis (as indeed all those calling for their exile) but it really can't get much worse than it is presently. Surely?

[Stevie Reid]

I agree losing TV money would be bad, but how much are we talking about, and who do you think will loose more....a club or a pub!
No TV games means going back to our roots and playing on a Saturday at 3pm just like we did when we were in the 1st division and none of this sat/sun 12 o'clock crap or even 6pm during the week.

When Hibs were in the first division, our gates went up because we had a better chance to win something and the league was more competitive :agree:
So the SPL without the OF would be a more competitive league and teams like Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs would start to fill up away ends around the country.


:agree:
In the following season I worked at Dunfermline and they were winning consistently in front of large crowds. I recall a fixture v St Mirren (who were also playing winning football) which was attended by around 11000 in the 1st division (capacity of EEP was 12810 at the time). Both clubs were promoted and the corresponding SPL fixture was watched by a shade over 4000. In the same season Dundee, Falkirk, Partick, Raith and even Livingston brought sizable supports to East End

Winning teams in a competitive league is an attractive option, much more so I'd say than the race for (a poor) 3rd place in a dead division controlled by and for the maintenance of a duopolistic hegemony. The myth that we need them is merely brainwashing and continually rinsing an already false footballing consciousness. They have no absolute right to dominate other than that which is self-appointed

I'd suggest that after 3-5 seasons or so, they (The OF) would be a distant memory. The various trophies all having been won by various clubs, new European experiences and perhaps a new enlightened media approach to all things Scottish Football. All it needs is a strong collective will to change things and allow it to flourish. All the naysayers have is a hypothesis (as indeed all those calling for their exile) but it really can't get much worse than it is presently. Surely?

It's important to remember that Hibs spent a fortune when we were in the 1st in an attempt to get into the new SPL with the Sky TV deal, and were treated to signings in LAtapy and Sauzee, that we could only dream of now in the SPL. Dunfermline had a season of Sky TV money before they went down, and spent a lot of money getting Calderwood in and try to get the TV money back.

I can't think of many players at other 1st division clubs who were worth watching when we were in it - most were just former SPL players with their best days behind them.

[HibsMax]

I think it's easy to blame the teams (Celtic and Rangers) but they are only doing what the governing bodies let them away with. It's not really their fault. They shouldn't get preferential treatment. They shouldn't get the lion's share of any media deals. They (their fans) shouldn't be allowed to get away with the behaviour they do. In the interest of balance, I apply these same rules to ALL teams.

I have on doubt in my mind that if the SPL/SFA/Whomever took the right measures (not sure what they are exactly) that we could get this league back on an even keel.

I use the MLB as an example. Look at which teams have the most money and the largest followings. Compare that ordered list with the teams that have won the World Series over the last 20 years. What do you see? One or two teams dominating? The richest teams dominating? The Yankees have won it FIVE times since 1990, hardly a monopoly.

The problem is there is not enough control. People will argue about how much control is required, I myself don't have a clear idea, but it's obvious to everyone outside of the Old Firm that the current system is not working and hasn't worked for decades....and that makes for a very boring league. We've known for years now that the only "mystery" in the SPL is trying to figure out who will win the league, Rangers or Celtic.

So while it's real easy to point the finger at Rangers or Celtic I think we ought to point higher. The governing body has to do more governing.

It really mystifies me how nobody with any power has noticed this for so long. You would think that a totally unbiased body would want competition. How many years of dominance do we have to endure before these dumb f***ers wake up and change things for the better?

[hibbiedon]

Scottish football would go down the pan. We would get no TV deal, no sponsorship. The prize pots would get slashed by about 60%. We would never get any teams in the champions league.

When Hibs were in the first division our gates increased, St Mirren, St Johnston and every other team who were challenging for the league had similar increases, the reason was these teams were challenging for something, and without the old firm dominance we would see an increase in attendances for the clubs at the top, many people have stopped going because there is no competition because of the OF dominance. So I for one wont miss them

[Barney McGrew]

When Hibs were in the first division, our gates went up because we had a better chance to win something and the league was more competitive :agree:

That's not true. One of the great myths we have from the season of the Great Adventure is that we got big crowds - IIRC there were only four or five games that season where we had attendances of five figures. The biggest crowd we had was for the Falkirk game on the final day of the season and it was under 15k.

Our average attendance was bigger the season we went down - we only had a couple of games where our attendance dipped below 10k despite the fact we were crap.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I think it's easy to blame the teams (Celtic and Rangers) but they are only doing what the governing bodies let them away with. It's not really their fault. They shouldn't get preferential treatment. They shouldn't get the lion's share of any media deals. They (their fans) shouldn't be allowed to get away with the behaviour they do. In the interest of balance, I apply these same rules to ALL teams.

I have on doubt in my mind that if the SPL/SFA/Whomever took the right measures (not sure what they are exactly) that we could get this league back on an even keel.

I use the MLB as an example. Look at which teams have the most money and the largest followings. Compare that ordered list with the teams that have won the World Series over the last 20 years. What do you see? One or two teams dominating? The richest teams dominating? The Yankees have won it FIVE times since 1990, hardly a monopoly.

The problem is there is not enough control. People will argue about how much control is required, I myself don't have a clear idea, but it's obvious to everyone outside of the Old Firm that the current system is not working and hasn't worked for decades....and that makes for a very boring league. We've known for years now that the only "mystery" in the SPL is trying to figure out who will win the league, Rangers or Celtic.

So while it's real easy to point the finger at Rangers or Celtic I think we ought to point higher. The governing body has to do more governing.

It really mystifies me how nobody with any power has noticed this for so long. You would think that a totally unbiased body would want competition. How many years of dominance do we have to endure before these dumb f***ers wake up and change things for the better?

That's all well and good, but the problem with that is that Celtic and Rangers more or less run the governing bodies, particularly the league. All of the hot air spouted this season is about a glorified turf war as to which of the two has slightly more of the power.

There is nobody with any power in Scottish football who examines what is in the overall interest of the game and acts upon it. Any proposal has to be run through the "will the OF accept it?" test first.

[HibsMax]

That's all well and good, but the problem with that is that Celtic and Rangers more or less run the governing bodies, particularly the league. All of the hot air spouted this season is about a glorified turf war as to which of the two has slightly more of the power.

There is nobody with any power in Scottish football who examines what is in the overall interest of the game and acts upon it. Any proposal has to be run through the "will the OF accept it?" test first.

That's exactly the problem I was talking about, without actually using the words that you did. :wink:

The problem isn't with Rangers or Celtic, it's with the way the league is governed.

[Part/Time Supporter]

That's exactly the problem I was talking about, without actually using the words that you did. :wink:

The problem isn't with Rangers or Celtic, it's with the way the league is governed.

I don't see how you fix that though (realistically).

There was a classic example when the SPL reform proposals were announced, one of which is relegation playoffs, which are seen to be a good, exciting thing.

Then Stephen Thompson (Dundee Utd chairman) suggested why not have playoffs for the top positions and all hell broke loose - "you can't have that", "farce", "makes a mockery of the league", :blah: :blah:

ie no chance of that ever happening because it directly affects those two.

[marinello59]

I don't see how you fix that though (realistically).

There was a classic example when the SPL reform proposals were announced, one of which is relegation playoffs, which are seen to be a good, exciting thing.

Then Stephen Thompson (Dundee Utd chairman) suggested why not have playoffs for the top positions and all hell broke loose - "you can't have that", "farce", "makes a mockery of the league", :blah: :blah:

ie no chance of that ever happening because it directly affects those two.

Possibly.
But it was still a dumb idea. :greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

Possibly.
But it was still a dumb idea. :greengrin

Then why is it seen as a good idea for the teams at the bottom of the league? It's still in the SPL proposal for a 10 team league.

[marinello59]

Then why is it seen as a good idea for the teams at the bottom of the league? It's still in the SPL proposal for a 10 team league.

Even with playoffs the bottom club is relegated regardless. So would the title play offs just be for 2nd spot?

[HibsMax]

I don't see how you fix that though (realistically).

There was a classic example when the SPL reform proposals were announced, one of which is relegation playoffs, which are seen to be a good, exciting thing.

Then Stephen Thompson (Dundee Utd chairman) suggested why not have playoffs for the top positions and all hell broke loose - "you can't have that", "farce", "makes a mockery of the league", :blah: :blah:

ie no chance of that ever happening because it directly affects those two.

I don't see an easy way to fix it either. It requires restructuring from the inside, from the top down. As I said earlier, I don't have the answers but that doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it mean the answers will be easy to implement.

Punting the Old Firm seems like an easy option. Let's say that happens. What happens in 20-30 years time when there are two different teams dominating? Don't say it won't happen because it already did. The only way to stop it from happening would be to reorg things to prevent it from happening. I'm suggesting that, in an ideal world, we should be able to perform this restructuring WITH the Old Firm still here. Unfortunately in our league there are teams with enough pull to prevent any such things happening.

Grow some balls, SPL!

EDIT : I realise I am being an idealist but I don't think that what I am suggesting should be that hard to implement. At the end of the day, it should be the LEAUGE that makes policy, not the teams.

[Greentinted]

It's important to remember that Hibs spent a fortune when we were in the 1st in an attempt to get into the new SPL with the Sky TV deal, and were treated to signings in LAtapy and Sauzee, that we could only dream of now in the SPL. Dunfermline had a season of Sky TV money before they went down, and spent a lot of money getting Calderwood in and try to get the TV money back.

I can't think of many players at other 1st division clubs who were worth watching when we were in it - most were just former SPL players with their best days behind them.

Of course there are logistical and financial challenges to be accounted for but the season to which I refer (99/00) had several 1st division clubs with decent supports most of which had not been nowhere near the SKY windfall; that is why I offered the following season as a comparison. same SKY money but different platform and a losing (mostly) team.
This guff about Scottish Football needing the Old Firm at the very least requires testing because meantime we will never know for sure; but to say it as fact is folly. Let's make it an even playing field for all or see how far they get without the rest of us.
Regardless of what the lassie Meja may proclaim, sometimes it isnt all about the money. :greengrin

[Vini1875]

This thread reads like a typical internet knee jerk reaction. We claim that OF are the problem, yet fail to address our own support.

One of the problems regarding OF dominance comes from the home side keeping the gate money and we voted for that around 1980. So it is no surprise that they have pulled away from the rest since then.

Also sectarian bigotry is not exclusive to Glasgow. I have lived in both Edinburgh and Glasgow, where there is no shortage of sectarian bigotry. East Lothian, Mid Lothian and Ayrshire have no shortage of marching bands. It is true that the OF give a focus for the bigots though.

However when all is said and done it is out of order to send bombs to people involved in sport, regardless of what you think of the individuals themselves they have done nothing to deserve it.

[GreenCastle]

Scotland had 3 teams in last 16 of the CHampions league 3 years running in recent times.

I agree tv deal imperfect but OF not the sole reason for this.

Really ? Who are those teams and when did it happen ?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Reading your post, it looks like you have more a dislike for Celtic than of the other mob.

Do Rangers fans make themselves out to be SCOTTISH? Never appears that way to me. Red Hand and English flags hardly spouts out a Scottish thing to do.

Both as bad.

I agree with you about the Rangers thing I just didnt have time to post everything in my mind regarding both clubs when I posted.

I have no preference when it comes to the Old Firm. This may surprise you, but I would prefer that both clubs continued to exsist and make a contribution to Scottish Football.

But the sad case is that their total dominance of the game has reduced the rest of the SPL to a side show. And now that we are at the point we have reached where the exsistance of these two clubs is dragging the name of Scotland through the mud through the actions of both clubs and fans. Manchester anybody ?

If the cure is Scottish Football minus the old firm with the biggest club having an average gate of 11,000 with the rest having between 4 and 8,000 then so be it.

I for one would still go and watch Hibs.

Games against the OF these days is something to endure, not to enjoy.

[WhileTheChief..]

Souness's first game for Rangers, Sproule's hat-trick, the 3-0's at Ibrox, humping them both out the cup on our way to being humped by Livi......

Scottish football without the Old Firm? Not for me. These are the games that i remember, that stand out, that get us all excited.

I still look forward to playing them as victory for us is so much sweeter for all the reasons that everyone on here is complaining about.

Yes they're horrible clubs with some horrible fans but I think they're a necessary evil. Winning a league without them in it would just feel a bit hollow.

[The_Todd]

If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan. We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

I don't care, really. I'd rather have a competitve league than what we have now. Who cares if there's no Scottish teams in the CL? Rangers and Celtic are the only teams to have qualified for the CL proper, and most of us want them pumped out at the first opportunity anyway.

[GreenCastle]

I don't care, really. I'd rather have a competitve league than what we have now. Who cares if there's no Scottish teams in the CL? Rangers and Celtic are the only teams to have qualified for the CL proper, and most of us want them pumped out at the first opportunity anyway.

:agree:

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

They still play off each other with snidey comments in the press and on TV especially from directors, we should be well used to it by now because it will never go away, I don't read or listen to anything old firm, never have done so it doesn't bother me in the least, all I can say is thank goodness I don't live in Glasgow and see this at first hand.

One thing's for sure the only way we will get rid of them is by them joining some kind of European league and to be honest I don't think that will happen but hope I'm wrong.

[JE89]

I don't care, really. I'd rather have a competitve league than what we have now. Who cares if there's no Scottish teams in the CL? Rangers and Celtic are the only teams to have qualified for the CL proper, and most of us want them pumped out at the first opportunity anyway.

See my other post which basically answers your post.
The first division is competitive but still pretty awful to watch.

[Sylar]

See my other post which basically answers your post.
The first division is competitive but still pretty awful to watch.

For a neutral, I guess it would be. However, each year, every team starts with realistic ambitions of winning the league, rather than aiming for 3rd at a best case.

The first division is never going to pull massive TV deals or attendances, because of the SPL and Old Firm "attraction" (very loosely defined) but if every club in the SPL had a realistic shot at winning the league, in a competitive setup, it WOULD be interesting to watch, surely?

[JE89]

For a neutral, I guess it would be. However, each year, every team starts with realistic ambitions of winning the league, rather than aiming for 3rd at a best case.

The first division is never going to pull massive TV deals or attendances, because of the SPL and Old Firm "attraction" (very loosely defined) but if every club in the SPL had a realistic shot at winning the league, in a competitive setup, it WOULD be interesting to watch, surely?

Again my other post answers this better, but a competitive league would be great, no doubt but if the OF are gone and the TV/Prize money etc is slashed the players who we would be watching are those who are not good enough in the current system AKA Nish, Rankin and the others who are being released, they would be the 'star' players. No thanks!

[weonlywon6-2]

]If the old firm left the SPL, Scottish football would go straight down the pan.[/B] We'd turn into a league like that of Lithuania or the likes with no recognisable teams (obviously we know Kaunas due to our neighbours) or teams in the Champions League. Also season ticket sales would plummet as we currently have 3 teams to seriously look forward to playing at home. If they left we'd have Yams. The OF are ****, but such **** is pretty much the only thing keeping Scottish football alive IMO.

absolutely correct. i wish people would understand that as much as we dont like them they are keeping our game at certain level and without them we would be watching dross every week,even worse than just now !

[HibsMax]

Souness's first game for Rangers, Sproule's hat-trick, the 3-0's at Ibrox, humping them both out the cup on our way to being humped by Livi......

Scottish football without the Old Firm? Not for me. These are the games that i remember, that stand out, that get us all excited.

I can't speak for you and I won't try to but surely those games are memorable because they are sort of David vs Goliath games? In my opinion, if we have a more competitive league then these sorts of games could become more of a regular occurrence.

The key to all of this, Old Firm or not, is that the league is competitive. Improve the level of competition, while not sacrificing on the quality, and I think the rest will follow.

[Removed]

Again my other post answers this better, but a competitive league would be great, no doubt but if the OF are gone and the TV/Prize money etc is slashed the players who we would be watching are those who are not good enough in the current system AKA Nish, Rankin and the others who are being released, they would be the 'star' players. No thanks!


absolutely correct. i wish people would understand that as much as we dont like them they are keeping our game at certain level and without them we would be watching dross every week,even worse than just now !

More like sucking the life out of it imo. We all want change but unfortunately we don't have many SPL chairmen with any backbone to tell Lawell & Bain to do one. The OF only tolerate us so that they can exist. They are only interested in themselves and as far as they are concerned the rest of Scottish Football is dragging them down :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter how many times you say it guys or put spin on it, you are just trotting out the same pish we hear from the media and OF sympathisers/fans on crap radio phone ins.

There are loads of us totally bored with football these days and you can't put the blame on players like Nish or Rankin. Our governing bodies, club directors and media pundits are all culpable imo.Who knows what we are going to end up with after reconstruction but it's a safe bet it'll not be any better value, quality or entertaining than what we have now.

The sooner we :bye: to the OF the better in my opinion.

[weonlywon6-2]

More like sucking the life out of it imo. We all want change but unfortunately we don't have many SPL chairmen with any backbone to tell Lawell & Bain to do one. The OF only tolerate us so that they can exist. They are only interested in themselves and as far as they are concerned the rest of Scottish Football is dragging them down :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter how many times you say it guys or put spin on it, you are just trotting out the same pish we hear from the media and OF sympathisers/fans on crap radio phone ins.

There are loads of us totally bored with football these days and you can't put the blame on players like Nish or Rankin. Our governing bodies, club directors and media pundits are all culpable imo.Who knows what we are going to end up with after reconstruction but it's a safe bet it'll not be any better value, quality or entertaining than what we have now.

The sooner we :bye: to the OF the better in my opinion.



your right with what you say but without them we will have really poor players in our league.

nobody really wants them anyway so they aint going anywhere.to much bother for other countries,even more so now with the lennon story

[woody47]

I agree losing TV money would be bad, but how much are we talking about, and who do you think will loose more....a club or a pub!
No TV games means going back to our roots and playing on a Saturday at 3pm just like we did when we were in the 1st division and none of this sat/sun 12 o'clock crap or even 6pm during the week.

When Hibs were in the first division, our gates went up because we had a better chance to win something and the league was more competitive :agree:
So the SPL without the OF would be a more competitive league and teams like Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs would start to fill up away ends around the country.

Absolutely agree 100%
Everyone keeps on about TV revenue and how much we need it. Look at it another way. Do NOT have live games and those people who would rather spend money in a pub and watch the game there will possibly decide to come back. From what I remember we get around £50k for a televised game. So all we would need is roughly an extra 2500 on the gate to cover that loss.
Get rid of the unfirm and crowds would come back as winning games and being in the top 3 with a chance of winning the league would add 1000's.

[hibee1994]

Celtic and Rangers could be considered an absolute disgrace to the Scottish game and it is clearly going too far when people's lives are endangered because of a football match. Im as passionate as any hibernian fan but i wouldn't dare send a bomb to Jim Jefferies and i don't think any other person here would. No matter how controversial Lennon has been, he didn't deserve getting beat up in the street or having to drop out of his national team because of death threats. Not only that but lets remember the bombs were sent to two people who supported Celtic but were not actually part of the team or staff so thats putting others lives in risk.

Never should a football manager have to have 24 hour security and live in a secret house to protect himself. Football should never be this violent and you only have to take a look at the Old firm matches themselves to see what im talking about. Fans fighting every match and some getting arrested. It's involving the Scottish Government for god's sake who frankly have a lot more to worry about than the latest Celtic and Ranger's scores and what happens when it goes too far which is in clinching distance? what happens then? Someone dies? Whoever is doing this should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

Maybe Celtic and Rangers do dominate the league, maybe they bring in players that wouldn't otherwise come and maybe they do bring a bigger TV deal but does any of that matter when someones life is in danger?

As for UEFA and the SFA, they should be ashamed of themselves for not acting on this and imposing severe consequences. As far as i know, Rangers and Celtic are the only rivals where fans send bombs to their rivals manager. To top it off, it's all based on Religion, get a grip.

Rant over

[cad]

When the clubs in Scottish football can run there business without the finance games against The Old Firm brings plus the TV money that Sky generates , hell will freeze over ,its no going to happen ,I hope it does but canny see it .
Being beholden to the finance the bigots bring or the 12.00 o clock Sunday kick offs
Sky have us going to ,maybe we are better just calling it a day ,tic toc tic toc is a slur thrown at our neighbours across the way , IMO I think the SPL is more likely to go down the tubes long before Hearts ever do .
The SFA have ruined or football , the Old Firm bring disgrace to our country
and Sky televises it all over the world what the SPL is all about
," But we are no all like that I hear you cry "
" True very true ,but Rangers and Celtic are Scottish football dont ye know ,bugger eh "

[seamus88]

I disagree, but even if this was the case, who cares? Us 'provincial' clubs achieve nothing in Europe anyway, the standard can't get much worse and for what? Playing second fiddle to those increasingly tedious ****merchants for years on end.

If they disappear we all of a sudden have a league anyone could win, clubs have a better chance of holding on to promising youngsters for longer and crowds would increase if any club from 6 or 7 are pushing for a league title. Who cares what outsiders think (after spending a year in England they are barely aware it exists as it is) if we have something to be excited about every season?
Very true!! They'll only ever put a scottish game of football on the telly if it's Rangers or Celtic on!!Something drastic has to be done so we get excieted about finishing higher than 3rd or 10 points behind 2nd!! Scottish football can't get more one sided IMO

[Moulin Yarns]

no lessons learned in the blue corner according to Dundee Utd fans

http://www.arabtrust.co.uk/current/?502-sectarian-chanting

at least they are doing something about it, reporting it to SFA and UEFA

Members of ArabTRUST have reported that illegal sectarian chants were sung by 'fans' of Glasgow Rangers at Tannadice Park last night.

These chants were heard throughout the stadium and ArabTRUST condemns these so-called supporters who bring down their football club and tarnish the reputation of our national sport.

ArabTRUST has accordingly reported the matter to the relevant authorities.

Amongst many deplorable chants, at 9.06 pm, the following could clearly be heard in the stadium and on BBC Radio Scotland:

We are Rangers
Super Rangers
No one likes us
We don’t care
We hate Celtic
F****n b******s
We will chase them anywhere

We now challenge both the SFA and UEFA to take action. These chants have also been reported to Tayside Police and we await the outcome.

We are fully aware that many Glasgow Rangers supporters share our concerns.

It is time that both sectarianism and bigotry are ended in Scottish football, and Scottish society as a whole.

We invite all supporters' trusts to join together so that we may eradicate such vile prejudices.

[Greentinted]

Celtic and Rangers could be considered an absolute disgrace to the Scottish game and it is clearly going too far when people's lives are endangered because of a football match. Im as passionate as any hibernian fan but i wouldn't dare send a bomb to Jim Jefferies and i don't think any other person here would. No matter how controversial Lennon has been, he didn't deserve getting beat up in the street or having to drop out of his national team because of death threats. Not only that but lets remember the bombs were sent to two people who supported Celtic but were not actually part of the team or staff so thats putting others lives in risk.

Never should a football manager have to have 24 hour security and live in a secret house to protect himself. Football should never be this violent and you only have to take a look at the Old firm matches themselves to see what im talking about. Fans fighting every match and some getting arrested. It's involving the Scottish Government for god's sake who frankly have a lot more to worry about than the latest Celtic and Ranger's scores and what happens when it goes too far which is in clinching distance? what happens then? Someone dies? Whoever is doing this should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

Maybe Celtic and Rangers do dominate the league, maybe they bring in players that wouldn't otherwise come and maybe they do bring a bigger TV deal but does any of that matter when someones life is in danger?

As for UEFA and the SFA, they should be ashamed of themselves for not acting on this and imposing severe consequences. As far as i know, Rangers and Celtic are the only rivals where fans send bombs to their rivals manager. To top it off, it's all based on Religion, get a grip.

Rant over

What she/he said. Excellent post. :top marks

[greenginger]

Does anyone think this little misunderstanding will, will in any way impact negatively on the Old Firm's ambitions of joining the English Premier League. :greengrin

[hibs0666]

no lessons learned in the blue corner according to Dundee Utd fans

http://www.arabtrust.co.uk/current/?502-sectarian-chanting

at least they are doing something about it, reporting it to SFA and UEFA

Members of ArabTRUST have reported that illegal sectarian chants were sung by 'fans' of Glasgow Rangers at Tannadice Park last night.

These chants were heard throughout the stadium and ArabTRUST condemns these so-called supporters who bring down their football club and tarnish the reputation of our national sport.

ArabTRUST has accordingly reported the matter to the relevant authorities.

Amongst many deplorable chants, at 9.06 pm, the following could clearly be heard in the stadium and on BBC Radio Scotland:

We are Rangers
Super Rangers
No one likes us
We don’t care
We hate Celtic
F****n b******s
We will chase them anywhere

We now challenge both the SFA and UEFA to take action. These chants have also been reported to Tayside Police and we await the outcome.

We are fully aware that many Glasgow Rangers supporters share our concerns.

It is time that both sectarianism and bigotry are ended in Scottish football, and Scottish society as a whole.

We invite all supporters' trusts to join together so that we may eradicate such vile prejudices.

This is a good way forward - report the barstewards every week, and make sure the complaint is made public every time. Eventually the SFA and SPL will be shamed into action.

[Stevie Reid]

This guff about Scottish Football needing the Old Firm at the very least requires testing because meantime we will never know for sure; but to say it as fact is folly.

And how would we test this exactly?

[Part/Time Supporter]

And how would we test this exactly?

The first division has been testing it for the last 20 years with mixed results.

Dunfermline are having their first sellout in 15 years on Saturday. Funnily enough, their last sellout was also in the First Division, and not during the ten years or so they were in the top flight.

[Stevie Reid]

The first division has been testing it for the last 20 years with mixed results.

Dunfermline are having their first sellout in 15 years on Saturday. Funnily enough, their last sellout was also in the First Division, and not during the ten years or so they were in the top flight.

That's the first division, not the SPL without the Old Firm - John McGlynn was in he Metro this morning saying that Saturday's game is so huge because it's a chance to get in amongst the big boys again, with all the additional finance, and visits to Ibrox and Parkhead, as well as having the OF visit Stark's Park.

Going by your logic, why aren't tight games involving title chasing sides in the 2nd division always sold out? They must be dying to get into the competitive 1st division after all. East End Park will be a sell out because the supporters want their team get back into the SPL - Old Firm included.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This thread reads like a typical internet knee jerk reaction. We claim that OF are the problem, yet fail to address our own support.

One of the problems regarding OF dominance comes from the home side keeping the gate money and we voted for that around 1980. So it is no surprise that they have pulled away from the rest since then.

Also sectarian bigotry is not exclusive to Glasgow. I have lived in both Edinburgh and Glasgow, where there is no shortage of sectarian bigotry. East Lothian, Mid Lothian and Ayrshire have no shortage of marching bands. It is true that the OF give a focus for the bigots though.

However when all is said and done it is out of order to send bombs to people involved in sport, regardless of what you think of the individuals themselves they have done nothing to deserve it.

Do you know that all the high schools in East Lothian are non denominational? Hardly a sign of a society torn in two by sectarianism. I think people sometimes see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear.

[Phil D. Rolls]

That's the first division, not the SPL without the Old Firm - John McGlynn was in he Metro this morning saying that Saturday's game is so huge because it's a chance to get in amongst the big boys again, with all the additional finance, and visits to Ibrox and Parkhead, as well as having the OF visit Stark's Park.

Going by your logic, why aren't tight games involving title chasing sides in the 2nd division always sold out? They must be dying to get into the competitive 1st division after all. East End Park will be a sell out because the supporters want their team get back into the SPL - Old Firm included.

There are only so many supporters to go round, and there can't be a country in the world that has big attendances in its third tier.

[Stevie Reid]

There are only so many supporters to go round, and there can't be a country in the world that has big attendances in its third tier.

That sounds like a logical statement. But so does this: a league without the 2 best supported teams in it, will generate much less interest in it - not more.

[Vini1875]

Do you know that all the high schools in East Lothian are non denominational? Hardly a sign of a society torn in two by sectarianism. I think people sometimes see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear.

So not one single Catholic High School in East Lothian?

[Part/Time Supporter]

That sounds like a logical statement. But so does this: a league without the 2 best supported teams in it, will generate much less interest in it - not more.

Yes, it probably will generate less interest.

We need to get away from this kind of thinking - it places the cart before the horse. Scottish football should produce a good quality competitive product first, the money will then take care of itself. Even the OF fans are bored of this product - look at their average attendances this season and compare it with just three years ago.

[Part/Time Supporter]

That's the first division, not the SPL without the Old Firm - John McGlynn was in he Metro this morning saying that Saturday's game is so huge because it's a chance to get in amongst the big boys again, with all the additional finance, and visits to Ibrox and Parkhead, as well as having the OF visit Stark's Park.

Going by your logic, why aren't tight games involving title chasing sides in the 2nd division always sold out? They must be dying to get into the competitive 1st division after all. East End Park will be a sell out because the supporters want their team get back into the SPL - Old Firm included.

Because the first division is more comparable to the SPL in terms of the population centres it draws its teams from than the second division. Brechin City are in or near the second division playoff zone - Brechin has a population of less than 10,000.

BTW, St. Johnstone's home (ie, ignoring the away support) attendance is well down this season compared to their last three seasons in the first division.

[Keith_M]

I'm very interested in the argument that some people are making that we need the OF because of television money, so I thought it needs further examination. I just wondered if it would really make such a massive difference to the kind of players Hibs could afford.


Does anyone know what percentage of Hibs income is from TV?

[Stevie Reid]

Because the first division is more comparable to the SPL in terms of the population centres it draws its teams from than the second division. Brechin City are in or near the second division playoff zone - Brechin has a population of less than 10,000.

BTW, St. Johnstone's home (ie, ignoring the away support) attendance is well down this season compared to their last three seasons in the first division.

You undoubtedly make some valid points - but I still don't accept that the First Division is proof that an SPL without the OF would work.

[Stevie Reid]

Yes, it probably will generate less interest.

We need to get away from this kind of thinking - it places the cart before the horse. Scottish football should produce a good quality competitive product first, the money will then take care of itself. Even the OF fans are bored of this product - look at their average attendances this season and compare it with just three years ago.

Marinello made the best point on this whole debate for me - who could ever truly claim they were Scottish Champions in a league without the SPL? And how would we get rid of them anyway?

[Part/Time Supporter]

I'm very interested in the argument that some people are making that we need the OF because of television money, so I thought it needs further examination. I just wondered if it would really make such a massive difference to the kind of players Hibs could afford.


Does anyone know what percentage of Hibs income is from TV?

The current TV contract is for £13M for the whole league. About a third of that goes on merit payments, the bulk of which goes to the top two places in the league (ie meant for the OF). I think "the rest" usually end up getting about £1M each with the OF getting about £2M each. In Hibs' case it is somewhere around 15% of total income.

[Keith_M]

The current TV contract is for £13M for the whole league. About a third of that goes on merit payments, the bulk of which goes to the top two places in the league (ie meant for the OF). I think "the rest" usually end up getting about £1M each with the OF getting about £2M each. In Hibs' case it is somewhere around 15% of total income.


Thanks.




:thumbsup:

[easty]

I'm very interested in the argument that some people are making that we need the OF because of television money, so I thought it needs further examination. I just wondered if it would really make such a massive difference to the kind of players Hibs could afford.


Does anyone know what percentage of Hibs income is from TV?

I don't think it's as simple as saying that losing the OF TV money means we would get a poorer standard of players. It's not just the money, some players come to the likes of Hibs, using us as a stepping stone and hoping to move to a bigger club, I bet a lot of them expect that bigger club could be Rangers or Celtic. Stokes for example.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Marinello made the best point on this whole debate for me - who could ever truly claim they were Scottish Champions in a league without the SPL? And how would we get rid of them anyway?

You would need some sort of promotion / relegation from the SPL to whatever structure those two were in.

Personally I would rather that the authorities locked the doors at Ibrox and Parkhead and threw the keys away.

[Keith_M]

I don't think it's as simple as saying that losing the OF TV money means we would get a poorer standard of players. It's not just the money, some players come to the likes of Hibs, using us as a stepping stone and hoping to move to a bigger club, I bet a lot of them expect that bigger club could be Rangers or Celtic. Stokes for example.

I actually wasn't making that argument. I was just interested if there really was such a difference, financially.

If the figures quoted by PTS are correct, it's actually much more than I imagined. I'd still be happy to take the risk that we could get higher average attendances, even without the OF contribution, to partially make up for the difference.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I actually wasn't making that argument. I was just interested if there really was such a difference, financially.

If the figures quoted by PTS are correct, it's actually much more than I imagined. I'd still be happy to take the risk that we could get higher average attendances, even without the OF contribution, to partially make up for the difference.

Yeah, Hibs could (although they don't appear very willing) just about take that hit with a lower budget and enough warning. I think that's why you generally tend to get a different (ie more slavish) attitude towards the OF from the smaller non-OF clubs (eg Hamilton) than the bigger ones (eg Hertz). The TV money must be somewhere around 40% of Hamilton's total income. Avg gate of say 2,500 produces gate revenue of just below £1M, negligible corporate or merchandise income.

[easty]

I actually wasn't making that argument. I was just interested if there really was such a difference, financially.

If the figures quoted by PTS are correct, it's actually much more than I imagined. I'd still be happy to take the risk that we could get higher average attendances, even without the OF contribution, to partially make up for the difference.

More than I thought as well.:agree:

I would love to be able to get rid of the Old Firm, purely on the grounds that I can't stand the pair of them, but I really am not sure if it would be good for us/for Scottish football as a whole. I'd hate for us to end up like the Irish or Welsh leagues.

[hibs0666]

I actually wasn't making that argument. I was just interested if there really was such a difference, financially.

If the figures quoted by PTS are correct, it's actually much more than I imagined. I'd still be happy to take the risk that we could get higher average attendances, even without the OF contribution, to partially make up for the difference.

SPL commercial revenue, including all TV and league sponsorships, is put into a single pool and is split by league placing as follows:

1 17.0%
2 15.0%
3 9.5%
4 8.5%
5 8.0%
6 7.5%
7 7.0%
8 6.5%
9 6.0%
10 5.5%
11 5.0%
12 4.5%

The bigots take a bout a third of the total pot. The yams will get about double the amount that will go to Hamilton.

[cad]

So we lose the 1 Mil from Sky ,get back to a 3 O'clock kick off on a Saturday .
Lose the income the Uglies bring us, plus the party songs ,etc .
We then empty The SFA and the hangers on
We then play in a league of 18 teams with 5 teams ish having a chance to win the new league.
Seems a winner to me ,when do we start :wink:

[easty]

So we lose the 1 Mil from Sky ,get back to a 3 O'clock kick off on a Saturday .
Lose the income the Uglies bring us, plus the party songs ,etc .
We then empty The SFA and the hangers on
We then play in a league of 18 teams with 5 teams ish having a chance to win the new league.
Seems a winner to me ,when do we start :wink:

It wouldn't just be that. We'd lose money in sponsorship deals as well.

[cad]

It wouldn't just be that. We'd lose money in sponsorship deals as well.



Its money thats got us hanging onto theyre coat tails its money thats got the SFA , SPL and every other ...t jumping through hoops for them ( no pun intended )
Money is the problem we put up with them, they subsidise us ,I for one dont want theyre money anymore , nailbombs what the ...ks that all about .
Sponsers come and go if its a success they will come back if it falls flat on its arse ,we got rid of the Uglies its a win win situ :agree:


But just think nae Uglies ,3 O clock kick offs a chance to win a league.
Have a beer and natter with other supporters ,normal people like you and me ,
win .lose or draw .
Now that's got to be goer no


GGTTH

[silverhibee]

Its money thats got us hanging onto theyre coat tails its money thats got the SFA , SPL and every other ...t jumping through hoops for them ( no pun intended )
Money is the problem we put up with them, they subsidise us ,I for one dont want theyre money anymore , nailbombs what the ...ks that all about .
Sponsers come and go if its a success they will come back if it falls flat on its arse ,we got rid of the Uglies its a win win situ :agree:


But just think nae Uglies ,3 O clock kick offs a chance to win a league.
Have a beer and natter with other supporters ,normal people like you and me ,
win .lose or draw .
Now that's got to be goer no


GGTTH

Sounds like a plan to me. :thumbsup:

[Green_one]

First of all I got one Ranger's view this morning from a colleague. Apparently it was not them (it was you know who) - (the conspiracy angle)
If it was them then its just some nutter (hmmmm)
And anyway no-one made a fuss when Rangers players got threatened. (missing the point again plus conspiracy again)

Basically they just do not get it at all. So my view is that something must be done this time and I believe finally something wll be done. We simply cannot have football nutters attacking a member of the Faculty of Advocates and a Scottish politician. That is attacking the Justice and Political systems. The Establishment will not permit that. I suspect the SFA is going to lose control over the reaction to this. It will be out of their hands.

I think that reaction will and should be something that punishes OF supporters without killing the teams involved. The latter is not possible anyway. 'Alex Salmond says Rangers are finished' - I think not. If this is not the case then basically we are losing our society to mindless thugs. Punishing Rangers fans has little impact on the rest of us, perhaps with the exception of travelling supporters. Certainly thoughts of closed door games should be included and if Rangers temselves need 'encoragement' then points deductions. One poster mentioned what songs should be banned. I think that is difficult but a start should be made of the clear cut versions involving Fenian Blood etc. Celtic will catch some of the reaction but Rangers look like they are in the front line.

These guys are so stupid I suspect that the OF game will carry on in its usual cave man style. I hope it does as it will re-inforce the possibility of a strong counter reaction. Enough, as they say, is enough.

[Greentinted]

And how would we test this exactly?

I, like many others, am only able to offer an hypothesis. The point about 'testing' was made to highlight the way in which some people seem brainwashed into believing that it would be a total doomsday scenario.
The fact is, they cynically trade on their 'unique branding', so without this aspect of OF culture, they would be forced to manifest as the provincial clubs they truly are which I aver would level out the playing field. The OF without the sectarian garbage become just another two clubs and while I will concede their fan base would still be larger than other clubs in Scotland, the disparity would be a lesser one.

[marinello59]

I, like many others, am only able to offer an hypothesis. The point about 'testing' was made to highlight the way in which some people seem brainwashed into believing that it would be a total doomsday scenario.
The fact is, they cynically trade on their 'unique branding', so without this aspect of OF culture, they would be forced to manifest as the provincial clubs they truly are which I aver would level out the playing field. The OF without the sectarian garbage become just another two clubs and while I will concede their fan base would still be larger than other clubs in Scotland, the disparity would be a lesser one.

Brainwashed? Are people who disagree with you incapable of independent thought then? :confused:

[easty]

First of all I got one Ranger's view this morning from a colleague. Apparently it was not them (it was you know who) - (the conspiracy angle)
If it was them then its just some nutter (hmmmm)
And anyway no-one made a fuss when Rangers players got threatened. (missing the point again plus conspiracy again)

Basically they just do not get it at all. So my view is that something must be done this time and I believe finally something wll be done. We simply cannot have football nutters attacking a member of the Faculty of Advocates and a Scottish politician. That is attacking the Justice and Political systems. The Establishment will not permit that. I suspect the SFA is going to lose control over the reaction to this. It will be out of their hands.

I think that reaction will and should be something that punishes OF supporters without killing the teams involved. The latter is not possible anyway. 'Alex Salmond says Rangers are finished' - I think not. If this is not the case then basically we are losing our society to mindless thugs. Punishing Rangers fans has little impact on the rest of us, perhaps with the exception of travelling supporters. Certainly thoughts of closed door games should be included and if Rangers temselves need 'encoragement' then points deductions. One poster mentioned what songs should be banned. I think that is difficult but a start should be made of the clear cut versions involving Fenian Blood etc. Celtic will catch some of the reaction but Rangers look like they are in the front line.

These guys are so stupid I suspect that the OF game will carry on in its usual cave man style. I hope it does as it will re-inforce the possibility of a strong counter reaction. Enough, as they say, is enough.

Yes there's no defence for the actions of these idiots, but Trish Godman wearing the Celtc top to work was just not clever. She's in a position of authority, she was an MSP for ****'s sake. I don't turn up to my work in a Hibs top, she should know that idiots don't need much of an excuse to live up to their title.

But like I said, there's no excuse for what happened.

[silverhibee]

The SFA/SPL must be bricking thereself's over the OF game this weekend, it will be shown live around the world this Sunday, and with recent events, last game, death and bomb threats it will attract a bigger auidence this time round, they must be hoping for a miracle that this game passes of quietly with no trouble on or of the pitch.
You just know that this weekend the OF wont let us down though, there songs of hate will be heard for everyone who listens to the game, hopefully a bad tempered game with a few sendings off, maybe even a couple of them being arrested by the Police on the pitch for pulling out there handbags and having a set two,:greengrin, and both managers fighting in the tunnel at the end of the game, which turns into a full on brawl from all involved from both teams.
If this happens, hopefully it does, then the SFA/SPL would have to take serious action against those involved, points deducted can be the only answer with massive fines handed out to both clubs, iam sure this weekend Strathclyde police will be up for this game as much as the fans and players are, hopefully there snatch squads are kept very busy by the minority.:rolleyes:

[Rasta_Hibs]

The SFA/SPL must be bricking thereself's over the OF game this weekend, it will be shown live around the world this Sunday, and with recent events, last game, death and bomb threats it will attract a bigger auidence this time round, they must be hoping for a miracle that this game passes of quietly with no trouble on or of the pitch.
You just know that this weekend the OF wont let us down though, there songs of hate will be heard for everyone who listens to the game, hopefully a bad tempered game with a few sendings off, maybe even a couple of them being arrested by the Police on the pitch for pulling out there handbags and having a set two,:greengrin, and both managers fighting in the tunnel at the end of the game, which turns into a full on brawl from all involved from both teams.
If this happens, hopefully it does, then the SFA/SPL would have to take serious action against those involved, points deducted can be the only answer with massive fines handed out to both clubs, iam sure this weekend Strathclyde police will be up for this game as much as the fans and players are, hopefully there snatch squads are kept very busy by the minority.:rolleyes:

That could all happen and the SFA will do nothing! Maybe hold another meeting at Hampden and have a press release about it

[Greentinted]

Brainwashed? Are people who disagree with you incapable of independent thought then? :confused:

Not referring to people in disagreement with me personally. More the trotted out media types and acolytes, who perpetuate the OF hegemonic myth without any substantial rationale to bolster the bluster.
Nobody can claim to know for sure how things would pan out in the wake of a hypothetical OF removal (or distillation) yet we still hear ad-nauseum, 'Scottish Football couldn't survive without them'. To me thats a mantra equivalent to being brainwashed. I may be wrong, but thats merely my opinion (not something asserted as an absolute).

[Keith_M]

I was just thinking about how much money people have said we'd lose if the OF weren't in the league and I can't help feeling it's being exagerated.

The TV deal has been claimed as being worth in the region of £1M to Hibs. I think a league without the OF would still be attractive to TV. How much it's worth is a matter of debate, but I don't think Hibs would suddenly go from £1M per annum to no deal at all.

Sponsorship would STILL come in, especially if we were going to be on TV. Shirt Sponsors would still want their name on the front of Hibs, Hearts, A/deen, etc shirts, as it would give them the same level of public exposure as they get now.

The biggest problem, as mentioned already by another poster, is the clubs for whom the TV money and gate money from OF games is a much larger percentage of their income than it is for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen. I can't see them any more willing now to form a new league than when they bottled it a few years ago.

[easty]

I was just thinking about how much money people have said we'd lose if the OF weren't in the league and I can't help feeling it's being exagerated.

The TV deal has been claimed as being worth in the region of £1M to Hibs. I think a league without the OF would still be attractive to TV. How much it's worth is a matter of debate, but I don't think Hibs would suddenly go from £1M per annum to no deal at all.

Sponsorship would STILL come in, especially if we were going to be on TV. Shirt Sponsors would still want their name on the front of Hibs, Hearts, A/deen, etc shirts, as it would give them the same level of public exposure as they get now.

The biggest problem, as mentioned already by another poster, is the clubs for whom the TV money and gate money from OF games is a much larger percentage of their income than it is for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen. I can't see them any more willing now to form a new league than when they bottled it a few years ago.

I'd have to disagree. I don't think a league without the Old Firm would be attractive to tv companies. Shirt sponsors would then not give us as much money as we don't have the same mass audience that tv gives us. We'd still get big companies wanting to sponsor us, but for far less money.

[Keith_M]

I'd have to disagree. I don't think a league without the Old Firm would be attractive to tv companies.


You don't think it would be on TV at all? Despite the fact we've had such things as the Scottish 1st Division and the Blue Sky Premier shown on TV?

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you. I said it's debatable how much money it would be worth but I still think it would be an attractive enough proposition for some form of TV deal.

[easty]

You don't think it would be on TV at all? Despite the fact we've had such things as the Scottish 1st Division and the Blue Sky Premier shown on TV?

Sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you. I said it's debatable how much money it would be worth but I still think it would be an attractive enough proposition for some form of TV deal.

I do think it would be on TV in some form. There would be extremely little money in it though.

[Stevie Reid]

So say we decide that enough is enough and somehow get rid of the OF - we then proceed without them, and all clubs suffer a huge loss in revenue; what happens then?

Surely there will be redundancies at every single SPL club - some of them barely get by with things as they are.

[Luna_Asylum]

Not referring to people in disagreement with me personally. More the trotted out media types who perpetuate the OF hegemonic myth without any substantial rationale to bolster the bluster.
Nobody can claim to know for sure how things would pan out in the wake of a hypothetical OF removal (or distillation) yet we still hear ad-nauseum, 'Scottish Football couldn't survive without them'. To me thats a mantra equivalent to being brainwashed. I may be wrong, but thats merely my opinion (not something asserted as an absolute).

You may be but IMHO you are correct.
The SPL have issued figures which are pure fantasy to back their proposals and those who choose to believe without questioning indeed look brainwashed.

[marinello59]

Not referring to people in disagreement with me personally. More the trotted out media types and acolytes, who perpetuate the OF hegemonic myth without any substantial rationale to bolster the bluster.
Nobody can claim to know for sure how things would pan out in the wake of a hypothetical OF removal (or distillation) yet we still hear ad-nauseum, 'Scottish Football couldn't survive without them'. To me thats a mantra equivalent to being brainwashed. I may be wrong, but thats merely my opinion (not something asserted as an absolute).

It works both ways though doesn't it. Given the contempt and resentment that many of us (myself included) feel towards the Old Firm it is far to easy to dismiss any benefits they bring to the SPL. Just read through some of the posts on here, some suggest we should simply get rid. Would you dismiss that as a mantra equivalent of brainwashing?

[marinello59]

You may be but IMHO you are correct.
The SPL have issued figures which are pure fantasy to back their proposals and those who choose to believe without questioning indeed look brainwashed.

I take it you are talking about the ten team league here. A slightly different topic maybe?
But has anybody accepted the figures without question? The SPL have suggested a figure (or several actually :greengrin) and those against their !0 team proposals have produced a lower figure to back their arguments. The actual figure (and it is all guess work) probably lies somewhere in between. I don't think anybody would seriously deny that going to a 16 or 18 team league right now would result in a significant loss of media income. It's the severity of that loss that is up for discussion. Hardly a case of mass brainwashing of those who may not particularly like the proposals but can see the logic behind them.

[Beefster]

Is there a campaign down South to get rid of Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea?

As much as I detest them and everything they stand for, if the OF leave Scottish football, our co-efficient will plunge leading to all our qualifiers starting even earlier, the sponsors will go from 'Tennents' and 'Coca Cola' to 'Shuggie's Toffee' and 'Wee Betty's Tea and Cake Shop', we'll go back to STV and BBC Scotland paying £3.50 a year for the TV rights and we'll become about as relevant to football as the League of Ireland or the Slovakian Corgoň Liga.

The standard will go down, the wage budgets will go down, the professionalism of the clubs will go down because they won't be able to afford the staff and ultimately, the crowds will remain static or go down. Where's the glory in only winning stuff because the best teams left and where the standard of football is *****?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Is there a campaign down South to get rid of Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea?

As much as I detest them and everything they stand for, if the OF leave Scottish football, our co-efficient will plunge leading to all our qualifiers starting even earlier, the sponsors will go from 'Tennents' and 'Coca Cola' to 'Shuggie's Toffee' and 'Wee Betty's Tea and Cake Shop', we'll go back to STV and BBC Scotland paying £3.50 a year for the TV rights and we'll become about as relevant to football as the League of Ireland or the Slovakian Corgoň Liga.

The standard will go down, the wage budgets will go down, the professionalism of the clubs will go down because they won't be able to afford the staff and ultimately, the crowds will remain static or go down. Where's the glory in only winning stuff because the best teams left and where the standard of football is *****?

Myth. Why do Irn-Bru and the BBC sponsor the SFL competitions?

You probably wouldn't get any brands looking to push an international message, but frankly Scottish football doesn't get that with the Old Firm. Carling sponsored the OF because they wanted to break into the Scottish pishy lager market dominated by Tennents, not for brand awareness down south or overseas. Hibs have had local sponsors for the last few seasons (and the next few), even though they've had the "benefit" of OF exposure.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

All this fussing all because one Hun is scared of losing the League to Celtic and his way of trying to derail Celtics bid is to do what he's doing. This aint the work of Terrorists, this is a peeved off hun and i would suspect teeny keyboard one at that!

[Luna_Asylum]

I take it you are talking about the ten team league here. A slightly different topic maybe?
But has anybody accepted the figures without question? The SPL have suggested a figure (or several actually :greengrin) and those against their !0 team proposals have produced a lower figure to back their arguments. The actual figure (and it is all guess work) probably lies somewhere in between. I don't think anybody would seriously deny that going to a 16 or 18 team league right now would result in a significant loss of media income. It's the severity of that loss that is up for discussion. Hardly a case of mass brainwashing of those who may not particularly like the proposals but can see the logic behind them.

It may be a different topic but the response is very familiar - money is god!
We are told any reduction in £ from TV, or in this case OF away fans, will automatically drag down the standard of football. For every £ lost in TV revenue however there would be a gain in attendance as a game would both not on TV and not be at a 12.00 time people did not like. Some have tried to scare us into believing that Nish and Rankin would be the best we could see in a Hibs shirt. That is indeed a scary prospect unless you believe its just part of the brainwashing process.

[marinello59]

It may be a different topic but the response is very familiar - money is god!
We are told any reduction in £ from TV, or in this case OF away fans, will automatically drag down the standard of football. For every £ lost in TV revenue however there would be a gain in attendance as a game would both not on TV and not be at a 12.00 time people did not like. Some have tried to scare us into believing that Nish and Rankin would be the best we could see in a Hibs shirt. That is indeed a scary prospect unless you believe its just part of the brainwashing process.

Sorry I may have misunderstood. Are you suggesting that every £1 lost in TV revenue would be fully replaced by increased attendances? (With or without the Old Firm.)

[Stevie Reid]

It may be a different topic but the response is very familiar - money is god!
We are told any reduction in £ from TV, or in this case OF away fans, will automatically drag down the standard of football. For every £ lost in TV revenue however there would be a gain in attendance as a game would both not on TV and not be at a 12.00 time people did not like. Some have tried to scare us into believing that Nish and Rankin would be the best we could see in a Hibs shirt. That is indeed a scary prospect unless you believe its just part of the brainwashing process.

You make out that that is a statment of fact, when such a hypothesis would actually require a huge leap of faith from clubs (definite loss of tv revenue vs hopeful prospect of a significant number of fans returning). I would also reckon that a product deemed not good enough to show on the telly would hardly send thousands back to the grounds to see such a product in person.

FWIW, whilst awkward kick off times no doubt do preclude some people from going to games, I think many use it as an excuse not to go. I know many people who complain about kick off times (myself included), but it doesn't stop us going to the games.

[Luna_Asylum]

Sorry I may have misunderstood. Are you suggesting that every £1 lost in TV revenue would be fully replaced by increased attendances? (With or without the Old Firm.)

No. What I am suggesting is that there would be an incease in attendances for games not on TV and games on at 12.00
I am further suggesting that this would bring bring revenue. I do not know whether it would would be more, the same or less as the TV money lost.
The point is that if the lost money argument is to be compelling it must reflect the money gained also. Otherwise it's an attempt at brainwashing.

[marinello59]

No. What I am suggesting is that there would be an incease in attendances for games not on TV and games on at 12.00
I am further suggesting that this would bring bring revenue. I do not know whether it would would be more, the same or less as the TV money lost.
The point is that if the lost money argument is to be compelling it must reflect the money gained also. Otherwise it's an attempt at brainwashing.

That all depends on how much TV revenue would be lost which none of us can know for sure. It would be substantial though. Look at the reduction in TV money the lower league clubs down South had to take recently. That's who we are competing against for TV exposure.
I see you are determined to persist with the brainwashing term. If the SPL are attempting to brainwash people then they have done a pretty poor job so far.:greengrin Surely most people are intelligent enough to see through the spin from both sides of the argument.

[Beefster]

Myth. Why do Irn-Bru and the BBC sponsor the SFL competitions?

You probably wouldn't get any brands looking to push an international message, but frankly Scottish football doesn't get that with the Old Firm. Carling sponsored the OF because they wanted to break into the Scottish pishy lager market dominated by Tennents, not for brand awareness down south or overseas. Hibs have had local sponsors for the last few seasons (and the next few), even though they've had the "benefit" of OF exposure.

I wasn't aware of the BBC sponsorship, tbh (what do they sponsor?). Irn Bru sponsor the SFL because they are a Scottish company but it gives 30 clubs £1m a season. That's an average of just over £33,000 per club per season. Scale that up to a OF-less SPL and we'd get more but a lot less than we do now.

I notice that you don't argue against my other points. Getting rid of the OF is one of these things that sounds great in principle - give other teams a chance to win stuff, remove the cancer of sectarianism etc etc - but in theory would devastate the game up here. No OF - no Riordan, no Miller, no Stokes, no de Graaf (every cloud and all that) and more.

[Greentinted]

It works both ways though doesn't it. Given the contempt and resentment that many of us (myself included) feel towards the Old Firm it is far to easy to dismiss any benefits they bring to the SPL. Just read through some of the posts on here, some suggest we should simply get rid. Would you dismiss that as a mantra equivalent of brainwashing?

As the ensuing debate rages on, the posts in this thread and on the boards generally are fairly well considered and thought out. I'd like to think that the majority of posters here have the faculty to personally unravel many of the issues individually and the nature of discourse here tends to bear this out. There are many here who are clearly highly intelligent people who have the ability to apply a certain circumspect rationality to their expression and that's why I believe that its not merely a knee-jerk type reaction.

Challenging the status quo is always difficult but there is a momentum increasing exponentially as the Old Firm continue to arrogantly propagate this 'youse need us' mentality while shooting themselves spectacularly in the feet. There does appear to be an appetite for real change, to grasp an opportunity devoid of the toxins vomited from the followers of the Old Firm and I would suggest that this is borne out of people, like the many on this board, who can and do employ their ability to think freely.

[marinello59]

As the ensuing debate rages on, the posts in this thread and on the boards generally are fairly well considered and thought out. I'd like to think that the majority of posters here have the faculty to personally unravel many of the issues individually and the nature of discourse here tends to bear this out. There are many here who are clearly highly intelligent people who have the ability to apply a certain circumspect rationality to their expression and that's why I believe that its not merely a knee-jerk type reaction.

Challenging the status quo is always difficult but there is a momentum increasing exponentially as the Old Firm continue to arrogantly propagate this 'youse need us' mentality while shooting themselves spectacularly in the feet. There does appear to be an appetite for real change, to grasp an opportunity devoid of the toxins vomited from the followers of the Old Firm and I would suggest that this is borne out of people, like the many on this board, who can and do employ their ability to think freely.

And you could employ free thought and come to a different conclusion. Couldn't you?

[Greentinted]

And you could employ free thought and come to a different conclusion. Couldn't you?

Of course, thats kinda the point of independent thinking, isn't it?

[marinello59]

Of course, thats kinda the point of independent thinking, isn't it?

So we agree on something then. That'll do me. :greengrin

[Greentinted]

So we agree on something then. That'll do me. :greengrin

Sounds good to me anaw. :greengrin

[discman]

That all depends on how much TV revenue would be lost which none of us can know for sure. It would be substantial though. Look at the reduction in TV money the lower league clubs down South had to take recently. That's who we are competing against for TV exposure.
I see you are determined to persist with the brainwashing term. If the SPL are attempting to brainwash people then they have done a pretty poor job so far.:greengrin Surely most people are intelligent enough to see through the spin from both sides of the argument.



According to PWC's fianancial revue August 2010, £13mill was the sum from tv an

media that all SPL clubs shared collectively,this compares with £45mill that each

EPL club receives!

The report suggests ....."We need to see a period of consolidation perhaps with

clubs nurturing home grown talent with a view to selling them on to richer clubs

in order to help service the debt,a scheme already successfully adopted by the

likes of Hibernian"

So does that not make us little more than a feeder club,with little oppertunity to

build a winning side that can compete against the "richer clubs" and in Europe?

The report is worth a read given the topic of this thread :coolhib:

[greenginger]

The Jambos accounts actually have a bit more detail of income than ours ( when they're eventually published)

For 2008 they have broadcasting income as £1.29 million 14% of total.

2009 broadcasting income is £ 1.874 million 22.5% of total.


It probably includes the money for Vlad-Telly in Lithland :greengrin

[Sammy7nil]

The Jambos accounts actually have a bit more detail of income than ours ( when they're eventually published)

For 2008 they have broadcasting income as £1.29 million 14% of total.

2009 broadcasting income is £ 1.874 million 22.5% of total.


It probably includes the money for Vlad-Telly in Lithland :greengrin

There is no such thing. Vlad is sent faxed pictures of all hearts games :agree::greengrin

[Removed]

This is a good way forward - report the barstewards every week, and make sure the complaint is made public every time. Eventually the SFA and SPL will be shamed into action.

I know for a fact that Macar wrote to the police after every Rangers visit to ER. He always got a very patronising reply. He regularly brings it up on the radio at. The problem is the pundits all have OF agendas so nobody ever took him seriously.

[hibbysam]

not read the rest of the thread but lets be serious us as a country dont need them or there money!

i can live with being a supporter of a club the size of an irish league team.. lets not kid on even with the money our league is rid of any ability.. i can live without televised games as i go to every home game and any away games i can afford.. we might have to lower our wage budgets but thats the way it is.. in the short term its a backwards step, but we have to go backwards to go forwards, take the cancer out and in the long term we can have a competitive league and cups.. and they will have nowhere to go..

OFGTF!

[Shearer]

Hibbysam - couldnt have put it better myself.

who cares if we lose out financially? every team would lose out so we wouldnt be any more disadvantaged than other SPL teams. As for not competing with english teams wages, well we dont compete anyway! Motherwell were out-bid by an English non-league team for a player in January!

same goes for europe, who cares if we lose a champions league place, scottish teams get humped in the first round anyway.

We'd lose the tv deal? Good! Would mean more fans would have to come to the games to watch their teams and also more 3pm saturday kick offs. Dont want a tv deal anyway!

Some people need to realise we dont need the OF at all, we need to shaft them for all they are worth like they've been doing to us for years

[HibsMax]

SPL commercial revenue, including all TV and league sponsorships, is put into a single pool and is split by league placing as follows:

1 17.0%
2 15.0%
3 9.5%
4 8.5%
5 8.0%
6 7.5%
7 7.0%
8 6.5%
9 6.0%
10 5.5%
11 5.0%
12 4.5%

The bigots take a bout a third of the total pot. The yams will get about double the amount that will go to Hamilton.

So it would appear that the league wants the winning teams to get stronger while letting the losing teams get weaker. Seems to make perfect sense to me.....

[Beefster]

Hibbysam - couldnt have put it better myself.

who cares if we lose out financially? every team would lose out so we wouldnt be any more disadvantaged than other SPL teams. As for not competing with english teams wages, well we dont compete anyway! Motherwell were out-bid by an English non-league team for a player in January!

same goes for europe, who cares if we lose a champions league place, scottish teams get humped in the first round anyway.

We'd lose the tv deal? Good! Would mean more fans would have to come to the games to watch their teams and also more 3pm saturday kick offs. Dont want a tv deal anyway!

Some people need to realise we dont need the OF at all, we need to shaft them for all they are worth like they've been doing to us for years

You're deluded if you think that Hibs attendences would go up if the standard of football was even more painful to watch.

[Nuitdelune]

Did you hear the person at the end on 606 saying in response to the the St Mirren fan who had been on earlier, that they (OF) have been carrying the rest of us for years and he supposed they would have to keep on doing so:faf:

[Luna_Asylum]

You're deluded if you think that Hibs attendences would go up if the standard of football was even more painful to watch.

count me in a deluded also

[hibbysam]

You're deluded if you think that Hibs attendences would go up if the standard of football was even more painful to watch.

I couldn't care if more turned up to games or not, but I know a lot of people that stay away from old firm games at ER because of the "atmosphere" and a lot more people would come if we were one of the top teams in the league challenging for trophies more often no?

But even then I would rather have a half empty ER without the old firm in our leagues and us challenging in a clean environment with less of there crap than a half empty ER going for top 6 most years without a hint of success and the old firm here too!

[Removed]

count me in a deluded also

And me.

[IWasThere2016]

The Scottish game is dying - and it's a slow and painful death at that - with the OF therein.

I'd expect something of a recovery without them - and long for the day.

I sincerely hope they kick oneanother all 90 mins long! I'll happily watch on field spats/fights/red cards etc as I'm not sure they can embarrass anymore than they have done so in recent weeks.

OFGTF

[GreenCastle]

Full house for Dunfermline v Raith today.

Yes it was pretty much a league decider but the people are there - but they want to watch a winning team and not Rangers and Celtic walk the league every year.

I think ER would easily be full for a title decider between Hibs / Hearts / Aberdeeb / Dundee Utd and many teams outside the Old Firm.

The power of the Old Firm is over rated and I would rather watch a fair league without them and all their baggage.

[givescotlandfreedom]

I'd love to see them go. They're two horrible institutions that belong in a museum with dinosaurs. OFGTF

[Cameron1875]

Full house for Dunfermline v Raith today.

Yes it was pretty much a league decider but the people are there - but they want to watch a winning team and not Rangers and Celtic walk the league every year.

I think ER would easily be full for a title decider between Hibs / Hearts / Aberdeeb / Dundee Utd and many teams outside the Old Firm.

The power of the Old Firm is over rated and I would rather watch a fair league without them and all their baggage.

The hunger for supporters teams is still there as i have mates who support both fife teams and they were excited all week. Today there was a tiny article in the paper about it:rolleyes:. BUT there is a massive problem in Scotland. Most of the newspapers are full of articles about neil lennon/walter smith etc and the build up to the old firm game. I hope i speak for most of us and say that we dont really give a toss. Obviously no one wants a manager sent bombs in the post but at 12 tomorrow the whole country isnt going to grind to a halt like the west coast media thinks to watch this sectarian rubbish.

Also i study in Glasgow and people ask me who i support and when I say hibs they then ask, no but who do you actually support? :confused: Ridiculous. I hate both the old firm and would much rather a team like Dundee United or Aberdeen won the league if it wasn't hibs. The more the old firm disgrace themselves the better :greengrin

[IWasThere2016]

Full house for Dunfermline v Raith today.

Yes it was pretty much a league decider but the people are there - but they want to watch a winning team and not Rangers and Celtic walk the league every year.

I think ER would easily be full for a title decider between Hibs / Hearts / Aberdeeb / Dundee Utd and many teams outside the Old Firm.

The power of the Old Firm is over rated and I would rather watch a fair league without them and all their baggage.

Nail. Heid. Whallop! :agree:

[Beefster]

Full house for Dunfermline v Raith today.

Yes it was pretty much a league decider but the people are there - but they want to watch a winning team and not Rangers and Celtic walk the league every year.

I think ER would easily be full for a title decider between Hibs / Hearts / Aberdeeb / Dundee Utd and many teams outside the Old Firm.

The power of the Old Firm is over rated and I would rather watch a fair league without them and all their baggage.

Dunfermine's attendance for the home game before that was just over three thousand so it's hardly a long term trend.

I'm not talking about the power of the Old Firm either. I'm talking about the standard of football being absolutely pish rather than just pish. We'd be asked to pay more for a worse product (to compensate for the loss of sponsorship, tv and away supporter money) yet folk think we'd get more fans through the gates on a regular basis.

There is also an assumption that we'd be challenging for the title on a regular basis. I'm not convinced that would be the case either.

[Phil D. Rolls]

So not one single Catholic High School in East Lothian?

Says it all, eh? If you think there is a sectarian problem in East Lothian then you are wrong. I don't know if kids going to the same school has something to do with it or not, but iMO it probably helps.

There isn't a single Protestant high school in East Lothian either. They are non denominational.

[greenginger]

The T V companies are a bit like drug-pushers in a way. They got football clubs hooked on the income they supply and when the clubs think they can't survive without that income the T V companies keep demanding more.

Must have 4 O. F. games, mid-day kick-offs, 10 team leagues etc. Eventually when the only necessity becomes T V money everything else gets forgotten.

Ground atmosphere, competitive league, attractive football all play second fiddle to the "pushers".

I think Scottish Football needs to go Cold Turkey if it ever to prosper again.

[Kaiser1962]

Says it all, eh? If you think there is a sectarian problem in East Lothian then you are wrong. I don't know if kids going to the same school has something to do with it or not, but iMO it probably helps.

There isn't a single Protestant high school in East Lothian either. They are non denominational.

My kids go to a Catholic School because its handy and closest to home. They are not Catholic and neither I nor their mother are Catholic. While they do go to church with the school (at Easter and stuff) they do not partake in any of the ceremonial stuff and they are not alone in this, other kids at the school are in the same position. The school is excellent and does not exclude them in any way from day to day activities. If they expressed a wish or desire to partake in the religous stuff then I would chat to the school about it and I sure they would do what they could to accomodate us, but they havent.

I do not believe this is the problem in the East that some are suggesting.

[lapsedhibee]

Says it all, eh? If you think there is a sectarian problem in East Lothian then you are wrong. I don't know if kids going to the same school has something to do with it or not, but iMO it probably helps.

There isn't a single Protestant high school in East Lothian either. They are non denominational.

:confused: How do E Lothian pupils know which of the OF they should support then? :dunno:

[Phil D. Rolls]

:confused: How do E Lothian pupils know which of the OF they should support then? :dunno:

They ask their priest of course.

[GreenCastle]

Dunfermine's attendance for the home game before that was just over three thousand so it's hardly a long term trend.

I'm not talking about the power of the Old Firm either. I'm talking about the standard of football being absolutely pish rather than just pish. We'd be asked to pay more for a worse product (to compensate for the loss of sponsorship, tv and away supporter money) yet folk think we'd get more fans through the gates on a regular basis.

There is also an assumption that we'd be challenging for the title on a regular basis. I'm not convinced that would be the case either.

I never said they were getting 11,000 / 12,000 every week but the key to decent attendances =

1 - reasonable ticket prices - right now the SPL prices are too much for the lack of quality on show - it's not value for money.

2 - quality of football on show - think Tony Mowbray - Hibs fans came back to watch good free flowing football.

3 - success - not always true - but helps massively - Rangers and Celtic didn't always get 50,000 each week.

I am not assuming we would challenge for the title every year - though I currently expect us to be fighting for 3rd as that's where we should be - but I bet fans would be more excited knowing at the start of the season we have the chance to win the league - there would also be a knock on with other clubs supports showing larger attendances.

Rangers and Celtic have been so greedy over the years they are a victim of their own success and are now stuck in a rut as Scottish teams hate them and England doesn't need them.

[Beefster]

I never said they were getting 11,000 / 12,000 every week but the key to decent attendances =

1 - reasonable ticket prices - right now the SPL prices are too much for the lack of quality on show - it's not value for money.

2 - quality of football on show - think Tony Mowbray - Hibs fans came back to watch good free flowing football.

3 - success - not always true - but helps massively - Rangers and Celtic didn't always get 50,000 each week.

I am not assuming we would challenge for the title every year - though I currently expect us to be fighting for 3rd as that's where we should be - but I bet fans would be more excited knowing at the start of the season we have the chance to win the league - there would also be a knock on with other clubs supports showing larger attendances.

Rangers and Celtic have been so greedy over the years they are a victim of their own success and are now stuck in a rut as Scottish teams hate them and England doesn't need them.

My argument is that the first two things on your list would be unlikely to happen as the clubs make the fans pay for the drop in income from elsewhere and the standard of football would drop because we'd pay even less in wages so couldn't attract guys like Miller, Riordan, Stokes and anyone else at the top end of our wage structure.

We got lucky under Mowbray with the 'golden generation' coming through. If we had had to pay market rates for those guys, they wouldn't have been at Hibs.

[Phil D. Rolls]

All this OF talk means that issues in the Scottish elections aren't getting much attention. You'd think it was to someone's advantage to take the spotlight off of them.

In a less mature democracy, you'd be pointing the finger at the ruling party dictating the agenda.

[GreenCastle]

My argument is that the first two things on your list would be unlikely to happen as the clubs make the fans pay for the drop in income from elsewhere and the standard of football would drop because we'd pay even less in wages so couldn't attract guys like Miller, Riordan, Stokes and anyone else at the top end of our wage structure.

We got lucky under Mowbray with the 'golden generation' coming through. If we had had to pay market rates for those guys, they wouldn't have been at Hibs.

Do people think the current offering of football in the league is value for money ?

We are paying for Rangers and Celtic trying to stay with the English leagues and over spending for better players they can't always afford = higher prices.

As for Hibs attracting those type of players - as we know a name doesn't always mean a success. Mowbray showed you can pick players up - play well and do well in the league.

The aim should be to develop from within at a reasonable cost - there still would be players wanting to play in Scotland if given the chance.

Think ahead to where the league is going - can we see anyone out with the old firm winning the league in the near future ? They may be getting slightly weaker but it's still not a fully competitive league.

[Beefster]

Do people think the current offering of football in the league is value for money ?

We are paying for Rangers and Celtic trying to stay with the English leagues and over spending for better players they can't always afford = higher prices.

As for Hibs attracting those type of players - as we know a name doesn't always mean a success. Mowbray showed you can pick players up - play well and do well in the league.

The aim should be to develop from within at a reasonable cost - there still would be players wanting to play in Scotland if given the chance.

Think ahead to where the league is going - can we see anyone out with the old firm winning the league in the near future ? They may be getting slightly weaker but it's still not a fully competitive league.

Nope, it's not value for money but paying more and getting less quality won't be either.

Mowbray did pick up some gems (Murphy in particular) but, without the once in a lifetime jackpot from the youth system, we wouldn't have even finished third - seeing as we only scraped it from Aberdeen on goal difference. I'd argue that managers like Mowbray (with his impact on Hibs) don't come around very often either.

I don't believe that we will win the SPL any time soon though. I don't think that Wigan, West Ham, Bolton or Newcastle will win the EPL either but no-one's suggesting that they get rid of Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal to give them a chance of competing for it.

We're evidently never going to agree but, as much as I hate them, I can see Scottish football become far poorer and irrelevant (even to half the population of Scotland - it's not like the Old Firm are going to cease to exist) without them.

Think about the Welsh Premier League where the two biggest clubs play elsewhere. It is irrelevant, the quality is absolutely murder and hardly anyone turns up. Yet it seems to be competitive in that no club has dominated it recently.

[The_Todd]

The Welsh Premier League is a red herring. Unlike the Scottish leagues, the Welsh league has only existed since the 90's. Also Cardiff and Swansea have played in the English system since they started, they never outgrew or left a Welsh league.

Wales also has a much smaller population, Cardiff and Swansea are the two large cities and both teams play in the English leagues - the other two clubds from large towns (Newport and Wrexham) are also in the English pyramid and always have been. Outside of those towns there aren't anymore large population centres like we have Aberdeen, Inverness, Falkirk, Dunfermline etc.

Another thing is in Wales football isn't the number one sport like it is here, folks are more inclined to go watch their local rugby team than football.

Lastly, the one thing Scottish football minus the OF has which Welsh football doesn't is teams with histories, fanbases and rivalries built up over 120 years or so. Would they all just disapppear?

In conclusion any comparison to the Welsh league is wide of the margin.

[Beefster]

The Welsh Premier League is a red herring. Unlike the Scottish leagues, the Welsh league has only existed since the 90's. Also Cardiff and Swansea have played in the English system since they started, they never outgrew or left a Welsh league.

Wales also has a much smaller population, Cardiff and Swansea are the two large cities and both teams play in the English leagues - the other two clubds from large towns (Newport and Wrexham) are also in the English pyramid and always have been. Outside of those towns there aren't anymore large population centres like we have Aberdeen, Inverness, Falkirk, Dunfermline etc.

Another thing is in Wales football isn't the number one sport like it is here, folks are more inclined to go watch their local rugby team than football.

Lastly, the one thing Scottish football minus the OF has which Welsh football doesn't is teams with histories, fanbases and rivalries built up over 120 years or so. Would they all just disapppear?

In conclusion any comparison to the Welsh league is wide of the margin.

There is no other league where the biggest clubs don't play in that country as far as I know. Substitute WPL for the League of Ireland or the Slovakian First Divisin though, the main points still stand.

Add in the fact that the OF will either go to England or a European League and Hibs will be even less of a draw for young yins.

[Phil D. Rolls]

There is no other league where the biggest clubs don't play in that country as far as I know. Substitute WPL for the League of Ireland or the Slovakian First Divisin though, the main points still stand.

Add in the fact that the OF will either go to England or a European League and Hibs will be even less of a draw for young yins.

The way I see it is that it could be like American sport, where both national and local (college) teams can draw big crowds.

[GreenCastle]

Nope, it's not value for money but paying more and getting less quality won't be either.

Mowbray did pick up some gems (Murphy in particular) but, without the once in a lifetime jackpot from the youth system, we wouldn't have even finished third - seeing as we only scraped it from Aberdeen on goal difference. I'd argue that managers like Mowbray (with his impact on Hibs) don't come around very often either.

I don't believe that we will win the SPL any time soon though. I don't think that Wigan, West Ham, Bolton or Newcastle will win the EPL either but no-one's suggesting that they get rid of Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal to give them a chance of competing for it.

We're evidently never going to agree but, as much as I hate them, I can see Scottish football become far poorer and irrelevant (even to half the population of Scotland - it's not like the Old Firm are going to cease to exist) without them.

Think about the Welsh Premier League where the two biggest clubs play elsewhere. It is irrelevant, the quality is absolutely murder and hardly anyone turns up. Yet it seems to be competitive in that no club has dominated it recently.

Who says pay more for less quality ? We agree it's not value for money so we just accept that or actually come down to a realistic level where we actually are and expect more youth to come through and pay similar prices to the German league for example for tickets?

I agree with you about the English league but I also think that's lost it's appeal and is close to becoming like the SPL but with 4 / 5 teams - if not already @so called big 4".

Some think the Championship is more exciting as it's so close - hard not to agree as teams like Man City bring in billions and others just can't compete in the Premiership.

The Welsh league has been discussed by others - but the bottom line is change is needed for both the Old Firm and other teams in Scotland as I believe the Old Firm are becoming weaker (look at their European results) and the quality of player in the SPL is already dropping with English leagues being able to attract better quality.

[Mili Tant]

I know for a fact that Macar wrote to the police after every Rangers visit to ER. He always got a very patronising reply. He regularly brings it up on the radio at. The problem is the pundits all have OF agendas so nobody ever took him seriously.

I agree that most of the pundits have an Old Firm agenda and there is little or no chance that the SPL will take any serious action. So do we as fans just accept the fact that 4 times a season we have to put up with their sectarian bile or do we genuinely want to do something about it. Here's what I suggest as a first step.

Hibs board contact the Old Firm (and indeed Hearts) and inform the clubs that if there is any sectarian singing or chanting from their "fans" at our ground, then they will receive no tickets for their next match at Easter Road. It should be made clear what songs/chants would be deemed offensive and include the 2 national anthems they are so hung up on.
The Hibs board should then pursue a case agaiinst the SPL for lost revenue on the basis that, as the National body responsible for the behaviour of fans, they have failed to address the situation in line with UEFA guidelines. I would also hope that alll other SPL clubs would follow suit and maybe force the powers that be into action.

[marinello59]

I agree that most of the pundits have an Old Firm agenda and there is little or no chance that the SPL will take any serious action. So do we as fans just accept the fact that 4 times a season we have to put up with their sectarian bile or do we genuinely want to do something about it. Here's what I suggest as a first step.

Hibs board contact the Old Firm (and indeed Hearts) and inform the clubs that if there is any sectarian singing or chanting from their "fans" at our ground, then they will receive no tickets for their next match at Easter Road. It should be made clear what songs/chants would be deemed offensive and include the 2 national anthems they are so hung up on.
The Hibs board should then pursue a case agaiinst the SPL for lost revenue on the basis that, as the National body responsible for the behaviour of fans, they have failed to address the situation in line with UEFA guidelines. I would also hope that alll other SPL clubs would follow suit and maybe force the powers that be into action.

If anybody is genuinely offended by a National Anthem being sung then the world truly has gone mad.

[Mili Tant]

If anybody is genuinely offended by a National Anthem being sung then the world truly has gone mad.

Are you denying that people are offended by these songs? Here's a challenge. Go to Ibrox Copeland Road and sing the Irish National Anthem. Or indeed, go to Celtic Park and sing the UK Anthem. You may not be personally offened but these are sung by the respective fans to incite sectarian bigotry. Not to recognise that is to follow the lead of the powers that be and bury your head in the sand.

[dangermouse]

I agree that most of the pundits have an Old Firm agenda and there is little or no chance that the SPL will take any serious action. So do we as fans just accept the fact that 4 times a season we have to put up with their sectarian bile or do we genuinely want to do something about it. Here's what I suggest as a first step.

Hibs board contact the Old Firm (and indeed Hearts) and inform the clubs that if there is any sectarian singing or chanting from their "fans" at our ground, then they will receive no tickets for their next match at Easter Road. It should be made clear what songs/chants would be deemed offensive and include the 2 national anthems they are so hung up on.
The Hibs board should then pursue a case agaiinst the SPL for lost revenue on the basis that, as the National body responsible for the behaviour of fans, they have failed to address the situation in line with UEFA guidelines. I would also hope that alll other SPL clubs would follow suit and maybe force the powers that be into action.

A fair argument but that is like turkey's voting for Christmas as the SPL are unlikely to cough up any money so the club would be out of pocket making the OF even stronger.

[marinello59]

Are you denying that people are offended by these songs? Here's a challenge. Go to Ibrox Copeland Road and sing the Irish National Anthem. Or indeed, go to Celtic Park and sing the UK Anthem. You may not be personally offened but these are sung by the respective fans to incite sectarian bigotry. Not to recognise that is to follow the lead of the powers that be and bury your head in the sand.

So we ban our country's National Anthem from Easter Road because it offends some deluded Celtic fans. Good luck with your campaign to get that one passed.

[Mili Tant]

So we ban our country's National Anthem from Easter Road because it offends some deluded Celtic fans. Good luck with your campaign to get that one passed.

Which Country are you referring to? I'm happy for Flower of Scotland to be sung at any time by any group of fans. I'm not happy for songs to be sung in a blatantly sectarian manner and, according to the reception the UK national anthem receives at Easter Road, neither are most Hibs fans.

[easty]

Are you denying that people are offended by these songs? Here's a challenge. Go to Ibrox Copeland Road and sing the Irish National Anthem. Or indeed, go to Celtic Park and sing the UK Anthem. You may not be personally offened but these are sung by the respective fans to incite sectarian bigotry. Not to recognise that is to follow the lead of the powers that be and bury your head in the sand.

:agree:

Just because the lyrics aren't offensive doesn't mean that the song isn't being sung to provoke a reaction. It's sad that this is the way it is, but it can't be denied that Rangers fans singing God Save The Queen aren't doing so while welling up with pride thinking of thier favourite Lizzy down in London.

[marinello59]

Which Country are you referring to? I'm happy for Flower of Scotland to be sung at any time by any group of fans. I'm not happy for songs to be sung in a blatantly sectarian manner and, according to the reception the UK national anthem receives at Easter Road, neither are most Hibs fans.

The British National Anthem. You know, the country on our passports. Banning that might be legally difficult. As would banning the Irish National anthem which I assume you find equally as offensive. (Whether you want to recognise GSTQ as our Anthem or not is a whole differnet argument surely, I ain't going there. :greengrin)
If a song blatantly discriminates of the grounds of religion, race etc then of course it should be banned. Those two songs do not fall in to that category do they?

[Greentinted]

:agree:

Just because the lyrics aren't offensive doesn't mean that the song isn't being sung to provoke a reaction. It's sad that this is the way it is, but it can't be denied that Rangers fans singing God Save The Queen aren't doing so while welling up with pride thinking of thier favourite Lizzy down in London.

Aye, its all about context, intent and interpretation. But saying that it would be a nightmare to legislate for. I personally have no truck with GSTQ but just because I have issue with most of what it connotes and how its appropriated by certain societal factions in certain situations is most likely my problem. I'd be getting rid of the explicitly racist/sectarian/homophobic stuff before Betty's Tune.

[easty]

Aye, its all about context, intent and interpretation. But saying that it would be a nightmare to legislate for. I personally have no truck with GSTQ but just because I have issue with most of what it connotes and how its appropriated by certain societal factions in certain situations is most likely my problem. I'd be getting rid of the explicitly racist/sectarian/homophobic stuff before Betty's Tune.

It's be more than a nightmare, it'd be impossible I'd imagine.

There's nothing anyone except the Rangers fans who actually stand there singing it can actually do. You ignore them and they all join in thinking they're brilliant and keeping the opposition support quiet. You boo them and they get the reaction they want and sing it even more.

It's a toughie. I've never been this confused as to what to do since the time I was trapped in a lift with Graham Norton, Kerry Katona and a gun with only one bullet.

[Mili Tant]

The British National Anthem. You know, the country on our passports. Banning that might be legally difficult. As would banning the Irish National anthem which I assume you find equally as offensive. (Whether you want to recognise GSTQ as our Anthem or not is a whole differnet argument surely, I ain't going there. :greengrin)
If a song blatantly discriminates of the grounds of religion, race etc then of course it should be banned. Those two songs do not fall in to that category do they?

Without invoking the old 4th verse of the UK anthem "Rebellious Scots to crush" etc. I do accept that it would legally imossible to ban the anthems and humbly and recluctantly amend the original suggestion. However, it does not take away from the orginal point that we as supporters should not be just sitting back accepting this vile sectarian nonsense and we should be encouraging our club to challenge it by excluding these people from our home. Given the UEFA initiative the SPL would be in a sticky position, to say the least, if they were to continue to ignore club concerns.

[marinello59]

[/B]

Without invoking the old 4th verse of the UK anthem "Rebellious Scots to crush" etc. I do accept that it would legally imossible to ban the anthems and humbly and recluctantly amend the original suggestion. However, it does not take away from the orginal point that we as supporters should not be just sitting back accepting this vile sectarian nonsense and we should be encouraging our club to challenge it by excluding these people from our home. Given the UEFA initiative the SPL would be in a sticky position, to say the least, if they were to continue to ignore club concerns.

I'll agree with that. I would favour pressing for a straight points deductions though. Banning them from Easter Road would only hit us financially, not them. Taking three points away every time they belt out their folk songs would get the message across alright.

[Mikey]

It's a toughie. I've never been this confused as to what to do since the time I was trapped in a lift with Graham Norton, Kerry Katona and a gun with only one bullet.

Just line them up.

Although if you suggest a line up to either of them....................

[marinello59]

Just line them up.

Although if you suggest a line up to either of them....................

Katona would probably produce a credit card and a rolled up fiver.

[GreenCastle]

In future can we have all Old Firm posts in here - :agree: