Very Rare Early Celtic Photo with Hibees Phil Clarke and Pat Dowling - 1889

[glasgow]

Celtic fan here who has registered to show a very rare pic of a Celtic Team which has recently been discovered by the Celtic Graves Society, the pic is from the Corinthians v Celtic 16th February 1889. Note the names Phil Clarke and Pat Dowling at the front who were on loan from Hibs, i just thought this pic would be important to the Hibs Historian out there.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3822/celtic89.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/celtic89.jpg/)

[calumb]

Celtic fan here who has registered to show a very rare pic of a Celtic Team which has recently been discovered by the Celtic Graves Society, the pic is from the Corinthians v Celtic 16th February 1889. Note the names Phil Clarke and Pat Dowling at the front who were on loan from Hibs, i just thought this pic would be important to the Hibs Historian out there.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3822/celtic89.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/celtic89.jpg/)

A few ex Hibs players as well. I notice there is no sign of the brother who supposedly formed you a year earlier but John Glass is there. Shows how quickly ye just became a business.

[HNA6]

John Coleman..traitor !!! :grr:

[Alfred E Newman]

I believe the referee , a Mr Mason, failed to give Celtic a stonewall penalty in that game proving that even in 1889 there was already a conspiracy against the club.

[(((Fergus)))]

That photo shows how, even back then, football was a magnet for cynical money grabbing *******s.

[Jonnyboy]

I believe the referee , a Mr Mason, failed to give Celtic a stonewall penalty in that game proving that even in 1889 there was already a conspiracy against the club.

:tee hee:

[One Day]

thanks for posting the pic

[KWJ]

Thanks for sharing it.

Willie Maley is the name I recognise.

Wikid it to see why, 43 years manager 30 tropheys, even with them that's mighty impressive. Must recognise his name from the HoF in Champman!

[The_Sauz]

I'm sure Celtic had 6 players (Glasgow based)on loan from Hibs when the first started :agree:
Just a pity they forgot to give them back :wink:

[glasgow]

I believe the referee , a Mr Mason, failed to give Celtic a stonewall penalty in that game proving that even in 1889 there was already a conspiracy against the club.

Your right but you dont mention the other 2 goals we had disallowed with our manager sent to the stand,

Newspaper reports from the day blame the 2 Hibees, it reads:


" Celtic had 2 Hibernian Players on loan in place of the Maley Brothers, Phil Clarke missed a few sitters and Pat Dowling gifted the Corinthians 2 of the goals, needless to say these are 2 players Celtic wont be signing":wink:

[Cabbage East]

Thieving weejie bassas:agree:

[Phil D. Rolls]

" Celtic had 2 Hibernian Players on loan in place of the Maley Brothers, Phil Clarke missed a few sitters and Pat Dowling gifted the Corinthians 2 of the goals, needless to say these are 2 players Celtic wont be signing"

I take we expected a transfer fee then?

[The_Sauz]

Your right but you dont mention the other 2 goals we had disallowed with our manager sent to the stand,

Newspaper reports from the day blame the 2 Hibees, it reads:



Still, it does nae give you the right to steal our hooped strips from the washing line :na na:

[glasgow]

I take we expected a transfer fee then?

It was1889 Pre-Celtic paying Hibs transfer fees.

[glasgow]

Thieving weejie bassas:agree:

Good to see a Hibernian Historian taking part in the thread:thumbsup:

[Mikey]

John Coleman..traitor !!! :grr:

:greengrin

Some of us had a great grandfather who stayed :wink:

[HNA6]

:greengrin

Some of us had a great grandfather who stayed :wink::greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

It was1889 Pre-Celtic paying Hibs transfer fees.

No, you've lost me, run that by me again. :greengrin

(Thanks for the picture by the way, and welcome to the board.)

[glasgow]

No, you've lost me, run that by me again. :greengrin

(Thanks for the picture by the way, and welcome to the board.)

Im sure i read somewhere that the Hibs folded in 1891 and was reformed as a Professional club later that year, where Scottish non-professional clubs permitted to pay/receive transfer fees in 1889?

Found the Quote i was looking for


The Club lost many players to professionalism as the club was at that time still amateur and funding with help for the poor.

[crewetollhibee]

I'm sure Celtic had 6 players (Glasgow based)on loan from Hibs when the first started :agree:
Just a pity they forgot to give them back :wink:
Bit late to ask for them back now eh ? Mind you, they probably would still have showed up a bit better than some our current crop managed yesterday.

[The Harp]

Im sure i read somewhere that the Hibs folded in 1891 and was reformed as a Professional club later that year, where Scottish non-professional clubs permitted to pay/receive transfer fees in 1889?

Found the Quote i was looking for

... and did you look into the reason why we folded in 1891? I'm afraid your club's history is far from honourable when it comes to how Hibs generosity was repaid by Celtic back then. Sadly, it has continued down the years even though there would be no Celtic if it wasn't for the Hibs.
Thanks for the photo though.

[hibbybrian]

Many thanks for the photo :aok: as I previously had no record of Pat Dowling playing for Hibernian.

Actually, apart from John Kelly, all the players in the pic plus Willie Maley had previously played for Hibernian. :wink:

Perhaps the Society should be searching for photographs of the Hibernian Team pre 1888 to get more pics of their legends :greengrin

[glasgow]

Many thanks for the photo :aok: as I previously had no record of Pat Dowling playing for Hibernian.

Actually, apart from John Kelly, all the players in the pic plus Willie Maley had previously played for Hibernian. :wink:

Perhaps the Society should be searching for photographs of the Hibernian Team pre 1888 to get more pics of their legends :greengrin

Pat Dowling guested for Celtic on many occassions and actually played against Celtic for Port Glasgow Athletic,

About the photo, 2 Hibees guested for Celtic that day which i take it was to help Celtic out, does not seem to have been any animosity between them then so why moan now?:dummytit:

The CGS reckon this is the second oldest team photograph of Celtic and in my opinion its quite important to the Hibs historians, otherwise i would not have registered and posted it on here.

[hibbybrian]

Pat Dowling guested for Celtic on many occassions and actually played against Celtic for Port Glasgow Athletic,

thanks for the info as he's not listed in the League Players Records from 1891


About the photo, 2 Hibees guested for Celtic that day which i take it was to help Celtic out, does not seem to have been any animosity between them then so why moan now?:dummytit:

Erm - where exactly am I moaning - I simply thanked you for posting the photo, added further information about those in the Photo and suggested an alternative source where early pictures of players could be found :dunno:


The CGS reckon this is the second oldest team photograph of Celtic and in my opinion its quite important to the Hibs historians, otherwise i would not have registered and posted it on here.

Again - I thanked you for posting the photo - particularly as it contains a picture of an early Hibernian Player of whom I have no details.

I would have thought that the CGS might have been interested in the background of the players in the photo but apparently this is considered to be a dig at your clubs history. :confused:

Below is an older photo - presumably the one you refer to above.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/hibbybrian/th_Celtic1887-1888.jpg?t=1303216304

Not a moan but simply a point of information - all the Players except Willie Dunning had previously played for Hibernian - Willie did however briefly play for Glasgow Hibernians the following year.

[glasgow]

About the photo, 2 Hibees guested for Celtic that day which i take it was to help Celtic out, does not seem to have been any animosity between them then so why moan now?:dummytit:Although i was replying to your quotes, the one above was not directed at you, if you look back in the thread you will see a few moans if not groans from a few others,

There is no doubt that the Celtic Historians will have looked into the history of Hibernian before writing their books and i am aware of the early days of Celtic,

also speaking as a Celtic fan i think we all know the Hibees did everything first.:wink:

[basehibby]

Surprised that nobody's mentioned "Darling" Willie Groves - an absolute legend of a player for pre-Celtic Hibs who won the cup with us in 1887 before being tragically poached by the smellies the next season along with half his teammates.

PS - thanks to the OP for taking the time to share this interesting photo.

[glasgow]

I would have thought that the CGS might have been interested in the background of the players
in the photo but apparently this is considered to be a dig at your clubs history. :confused:
Never even thought about it as a dig at Celtics history :confused:

Seen you mention it, the Celtic Graves Society was set up last year by Celtic Supporters who will not forget their history and especially our early history, the CGS have located the graves of every single one of the players in the pic below (Celtic 1st ever team) and have made sure that their graves are marked and well maintained, only a suggestion but seen many of our early players where your early players, how about chipping in :greengrin

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5232/cgslogo.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/cgslogo.jpg/)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7995/1888e.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/1888e.jpg/)

[glasgow]

Hoping to get as much response to this early photo as i got from the other one i posted:thumbsup:

Another very early pic of Celtic, anyone recognise any Hibs players?

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2946/celticphotoearlyteam.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/celticphotoearlyteam.jpg/)

[Mikey]

John Coleman..traitor !!! :grr:

Still makes me laugh :tee hee:

[Baldy Foghorn]

"Darling" Willie Groves there as well......

[MSK]

Still makes me laugh :tee hee::greengrin

[glasgow]

"Darling" Willie Groves there as well......

Would be interested to know what one you think is Willie Groves? and Coleman if you also think hes in the pic:thumbsup:

[Aubenas]

Thanks for the pic. A good point well made. There is a Michael Whelaghan buried close to my grandad in Mount Vernon cemetery and I've always wondered if it is THE MW. Be good to mark that. My uncle played for Hibs a few times in the twenties & I got 'Hibernian FC' added when i had the stone redone a few years ago.

[Bostonhibby]

I'm sure Celtic had 6 players (Glasgow based)on loan from Hibs when the first started :agree:
Just a pity they forgot to give them back :wink:

I am sure Rod could probably wring some sort of back dated deal out of them.

[glasgow]

Thanks for the pic. A good point well made. There is a Michael Whelaghan buried close to my grandad in Mount Vernon cemetery and I've always wondered if it is THE MW. Be good to mark that. My uncle played for Hibs a few times in the twenties & I got 'Hibernian FC' added when i had the stone redone a few years ago.

Thats the stuff:thumbsup:

Lot of work marking someones grave and in most cases you need permission from the owner of the lair

We at the Celtic Graves Society will commemorate the grave of Celtic's first President, John Glass (no spitting please) this coming Sunday, with one for James McLaughlin a few days later, we have already had ceremonies for Barnie Battles, Sandy McMahon and a few more, also around 50 will be walking from Celtic Park to Cardenden (Johnny Thomsons 80th Anniversary) Charity Pilgrimage in September.

THEY NEVER DIE WHO LIVE IN THE HEARTS THEY LEAVE BEHIND

[SquashedFrogg]

I am sure Rod could probably wring some sort of back dated deal out of them.

The article at the bottom of the page also reports;

"In amongst the slums of Gorgie, the 'child friendly' football club, Heart Of Midlothian still owe 356 Groats to Queen Victoria's Tax collectors".

No one from the club would comment but it was suggested that their modern grand stand constructed from the new modern material (asbestos) could be sold to pay for any such debts.

[son of haggart]

Interesting thread. I live just along from Corinthian Casuals (succesor to corinthian) and have been meaning to delve into their archives for a while - they only played hearts twice, and much later. I'll ask them about the celtic games too, just in case

[fat freddy]

from 100 years of hibs...

Celtic's arrival on the scene wasn't fully appreciated at the time......Tom Maley was busy recruiting players for celtic and enticed McKeown, Gallagher, McLaren and Groves to defect from Easter Road. There were no contracts and, supposedly, no wages and a club had to rely on the loyalty of its players. Nobody could prove that these players had benefited financially though the circumstances were suspicious. Hibs supporters were angry and distressed and felt they had been betrayed. ....In September 1888 Celtic visited Edinburgh and the customers hooted and jeered at the Glasgow club who had stolen their stars. They invaded the pitch and caused the game to be abandoned.

[1875STEVE]

Thanks for the pic. A good point well made. There is a Michael Whelaghan buried close to my grandad in Mount Vernon cemetery and I've always wondered if it is THE MW. Be good to mark that. My uncle played for Hibs a few times in the twenties & I got 'Hibernian FC' added when i had the stone redone a few years ago.

YES that is Micheal Whelahan's grave (it has the same birth date and death date as the book), I done a lot of research after reading the book "the making of Hibernian" cracking read, and went out to find it.

I put a Hibs scarf round it after someone on the Bounce asked me to mark it so they could find it, but someone, im guessing a worker, removed it when i went up again to show my dad.

I took some photo's, I also went to Hannan's grave as well and took photo's.

Photo's all uploaded to the Hibernian-Mad facebook page see link below.


http://www.facebook.com/pages/WWWHIBERNIAN-MADCOUK/111565376573

[The Baldmans Comb]

... and did you look into the reason why we folded in 1891? I'm afraid your club's history is far from honourable when it comes to how Hibs generosity was repaid by Celtic back then. Sadly, it has continued down the years even though there would be no Celtic if it wasn't for the Hibs.
Thanks for the photo though.

Do you know the reason yourself why Hibs folded in 1891 as it's not quite as simple as you seem to imply?

Nice photo Mr Celtc fan and good luck with the graves project as that is a great idea.:greengrin

[Hibs90]

Hoping to get as much response to this early photo as i got from the other one i posted:thumbsup:

Another very early pic of Celtic, anyone recognise any Hibs players?

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2946/celticphotoearlyteam.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/celticphotoearlyteam.jpg/)

Couldn't tell you but the guy in the bottom row second from the right does look the spit of Scott Brown :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Hoping to get as much response to this early photo as i got from the other one i posted:thumbsup:Another very early pic of Celtic, anyone recognise any Hibs players? http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/2946/celticphotoearlyteam.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/celticphotoearlyteam.jpg/)Looks like John Rankin in the bowler, and a definite ringer for Scotty Brown bottom left.

[Keith_M]

Interesting photos, thanks for posting them.


Nice to see that us Hibs fans don't hold grudges

:greengrin

[glasgow]

Genuinely trying to identify everybody in the photo and was hoping some Hibs historians might help, would be interested to know if any websites show pics of the Hibs players/team from this period, i reckon it dates from 1891.

Celtic won the North Eastern Cup in both 1889 and 1890. In 1889 we beat Cowlairs 6-1 in the final and the team was : McLaughlin, Dowling, McKeown, W Maley, Kelly, McLaren, H Gallacher, Dowds, Groves, Coleman, Dunbar.

[glasgow]

Unbelievable this post jumped downed to 2nd page in less time it takes to play a fitba game

Anything to do with Hearts getting humped last night?

[1875STEVE]

Genuinely trying to identify everybody in the photo and was hoping some Hibs historians might help, would be interested to know if any websites show pics of the Hibs players/team from this period, i reckon it dates from 1891.

Celtic won the North Eastern Cup in both 1889 and 1890. In 1889 we beat Cowlairs 6-1 in the final and the team was : McLaughlin, Dowling, McKeown, W Maley, Kelly, McLaren, H Gallacher, Dowds, Groves, Coleman, Dunbar.

This is the earliest known (I think) photo of Hibs. 1876.

http://www.stpatricksparish.co.uk/img/Hibs-team-medium.jpg

http://www.stpatricksparish.co.uk/hibernian.htm[

[1875STEVE]

You could also try this, plenty of old photos.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fraserpettigrew/sets/72157603733458502/

[hibbybrian]

Genuinely trying to identify everybody in the photo and was hoping some Hibs historians might help, would be interested to know if any websites show pics of the Hibs players/team from this period, i reckon it dates from 1891.

It's definitely not from 1891 as from 1889-1893 the Celtic jerseys had round necks:wink:

From 1893-1895 they had white collars and green cuffs then 1895-1897 striped collars and a white stripe on the green cuff as appears to be the case on the photo.

1895 Celtic players who had previously played for Hibernian included Mick Dunbar, James Kelly, James Blessington, Allan Martin (rejoined Hibernian from Celtic in 1896), Sandy McMahon, Dan Doyle and John Divers (rejoined Hibernian from Celtic in 1901).

[glasgow]

HibbyBrian - I was PMd by someone on here who says yir the man that can help me so cheers for posting in this thread

This un-named photographed surfaced a while back and i am hoping to name them all, according to our recent research this is a pic of the Celtic reserve team that defeated St Mirren 13-1,

M.Dolan, Collins, T.Dunbar, Murray, F.Dolan, Kyle, Cunningham, Devlin, Coleman, Foran, McGhee,

if you look at the names you will see there is a few ex Hibees amongst them and the last one is the original Diet Hunskelper James McGhee:greengrin

Hoping that someone on this forum has pics of any of the above players and can identify them to me:thumbsup:

[glasgow]

These are the Celtic pics from that era that i am using to identify some of the players:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5940/celticphotoearlyteam1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/celticphotoearlyteam1.jpg/)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5418/october1889photoofcommi.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/october1889photoofcommi.jpg/)

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8976/celticteam198889.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/celticteam198889.jpg/)

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7663/189192.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/189192.jpg/)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5278/1888noname.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/155/1888noname.jpg/)

[glasgow]

from 100 years of hibs...

Celtic's arrival on the scene wasn't fully appreciated at the time......Tom Maley was busy recruiting players for celtic and enticed McKeown, Gallagher, McLaren and Groves to defect from Easter Road. There were no contracts and, supposedly, no wages and a club had to rely on the loyalty of its players. Nobody could prove that these players had benefited financially though the circumstances were suspicious. Hibs supporters were angry and distressed and felt they had been betrayed. ....In September 1888 Celtic visited Edinburgh and the customers hooted and jeered at the Glasgow club who had stolen their stars. They invaded the pitch and caused the game to be abandoned.

Interesting:taxi

Always been interested in the Hibees history and have a couple of pieces of their memorabilia in my football collection.

Wondering what the Hibees on here think of this piece, my thoughts after reading it: The Hibees did it first which we are constantly reminded of :wink:


“My word of honour” - The Hibernian Affair

In season 1886-87 the Vale were able to expose the fiction of amateurism practiced by Hibernian in particular, but judging from the comments of many other SFA members, it’s a fair assumption that many clubs were paying players in contravention of the rules. That season the Vale won through to a semi-final against Hibernian without too much difficulty. The game was eventually played in Edinburgh in January 1887 (bad weather delayed it), and Hibs won 3-1. The Vale lodged a number of protests against the result immediately after the match. The most important of these was an accusation of professionalism against Hibs,

As soon as the protests were made, they were handled by the appropriate SFA committee, which met within a few days to consider their merits. There were two concerns voiced by some members of this committee, neither of which suggested that the facts in the case were going to be given a fair consideration. The first was that some committee members felt that because a date had been set for the cup final, time was of the essence and the matter had to be dealt with in the shortest possible time. The second was that if the Vale were proved right in their accusation of professionalism, then every other Hibs opponent from the first round onwards would have to be re-instated and a whole series of new games played throughout a succession of rounds. Some members made it clear that no matter what Hibs had done, they did not want the competition to be delayed or replayed. Hardly the fairest approach to considering the merits of the Vale’s protests, All of the other protests were quickly dismissed by the SFA committee, but that of professionalism was not.

After a 5 hour meeting at which the Hibs secretary, Mr McFadden, was grilled about payments to players, which he totally denied, it was decided to give the Vale 10 days to add substance to the accusation. The 10 days was actually the time limit which the Hibs secretary, McFadden, had asked be set on the investigation and this was further evidence of the less than even-handed approach of the Committee.

Two things are clear from that meeting. Firstly, the Hearts representative on the Committee had information, perhaps common gossip in Edinburgh, about possible payments to specific Hibs players, and he wasn’t going to let the matter just die quietly. Secondly, many Committee members thought that the 10 day limit would effectively close the matter down by not giving the Vale enough time to collect anything other than hearsay evidence. It’s probably fair to say that while there were those on the Committee who were happy to see Hibs mildly embarrassed, nobody expected or hoped that the Vale could prove their case with substantive evidence. The Committee members thought that they had kicked the ball into the long grass. However, they should have known better, since to slightly paraphrase Dr Johnston’s phrase about Scotsmen in general, “no one would mistake a Valeman with a grievance for a ray of sunshine”.

Even to-day, with modern high quality video evidence we have seen in many cases of monetary inducements either being offered or solicited in a number of different sports that proving illegality is notoriously difficult. 120 years ago it was infinitely more so, especially with the time limit set by the Committee. However, the Vale acted with speed and energy. They promptly hired a private detective to investigate Hibs. This was very daring and modern – Sherlock Holmes had not yet been created and private detectives were few and far between in Britain. Perhaps the most surprising thing about the whole affair was the amount of evidence which this detective managed to unearth in the few days available to him.

At the reconvened meeting of the SFA Committee on Thursday 10th February 1887, the private detective produced witnesses who claimed that:

the best Hibs forward, Willie Groves, was publicly boasting, and had boasted to them personally, that Hibs paid him, the whole Hibs team seemed not to be at work in the week before the game, and spent their time in a hotel in Edinburgh lunching and lounging about. The hotel owner appeared in front of the Committee and gave evidence to that effect.

Witnesses had been threatened with violence if they gave evidence of other payments made to Hibs players. To this piece of testimony the Hearts representative added his own statement that he too had been threatened by Hibs people for offering evidence of payments, the detective produced a number of letters and statements from people who couldn’t attend the committee meeting, but the committee refused to admit them as evidence.

Mr McFadden, the Hibs Secretary, was now put on the spot by the most damning piece of evidence, which proved the Vale’s case beyond any reasonable doubt. That evidence came from Hibs themselves in the shape of their cash book. The SFA had had anti-professionalism rules for a few years which required each club to have its cash book ready for inspection at a moment’s notice. The Committee asked Hibs to produce the cash book covering the last three years. During these three years there had been a number of different Hibs treasurers and secretaries who would all have made entries of income received and payments made. It should have consisted of a number of different sets of handwriting and inks. Instead, the entries in the Hibs cash book given to the Committee were all written in the same hand and looked as if it had all been written on the same day. The hapless Mr McFadden said he did not know why that was the case, because, he said, the cash book would have been posted up week by week. “I give you my word of honour it has not been written up for the occasion” he assured the Committee, The cash book entries also forced him to admit that the Hibs players had been paid, not only for time lost from work, but also for practice matches. Now proceedings took a comic turn. McFadden’s evidence was followed immediately by that from the player Groves who had clearly been told, in the best Baldric from Blackadder Goes Forth fashion, to deny everything.

Obviously McFadden did not have time to update Groves that he, McFadden, had had to admit that certain payments had been made to players, including Groves. So Groves tells the Committee that he had received no payments whatsoever from anyone at Hibs for anything at any time, in flat contradiction to McFadden. Needless to say, he couldn’t explain why McFadden had just said the exact opposite.

That should have been game up for Hibs, but this, after all, is the SFA that we are dealing with, so consistency and common sense can’t be counted on. This second meeting was held on Thursday February 10th and the final was due to be played on Saturday 12th i.e. in two days time. This was a situation which the SFA had allowed itself to be manoeuvred into by Hibs. The difficulties of throwing Hibs out of the Cup were bad enough, but to delay the Cup Final was probably the key consideration for the Committee chairman, who was very much an SFA man. When the meeting voted on whether or not the Vale had proved its case, the Committee members divided equally. After a wrangle about a secret vote, the meeting voted again, but it was tied again. The chairman used his casting voted to side with Hibs, saying they had had a narrow escape. It was a disgrace, of course, all the more galling for the Vale because of their experiences 13 years before in the John Ferguson Affair. McFadden claimed that Hibs had been exonerated and asked the Vale to withdraw their accusations. The Vale replied that Hibs had not been exonerated, certainly not to the public at large and particularly not to the Vale. The Vale never withdrew its accusation and the public at large mostly agreed and sympathised with them,

Hibs subsequent win in the cup final against Dumbarton two days later was widely viewed as tainted, but that was little consolation to the Vale. There was one indirect result of Hibs victory and this was altogether more positive. At the Hibs celebration dinner after their Cup Final win, McFadden told some of Hibs’ Glasgow well-wishers that Glasgow should form its own Irish football club. One of the attendees was Brother Walfrid and he was taken with the idea since he was looking for some way to help the poor of the east end of Glasgow, many of whom, but by no means all, were Irish immigrants. His vision, however, was far more expansive and inclusive than the Hibs model at the time.

Part 2 to follow:

[glasgow]

The Football Club which Brother Walfrid formed in Glasgow’s east end was to embrace both Scots and Irish supporters and players, on the basis that both Scots and Irish were Celts. That was reflected in the original pronunciation of the football club which had a hard “C” at the beginning i.e. “Keltic”. Almost from the outset, Celtic had of course a Renton connection: the great Renton centre half James Kelly and the Renton forward Neil McCallum went to play for them in the spring of 1888. So if the Vale had forced Hibs’ expulsion, Celtic would not have been founded when they were and perhaps not on the basis on which they were either,

The final word on the affair no doubt gave some grim satisfaction in the Vale. As Billy McNeil, one of the finest players and gentlemen ever to grace the Scottish game, is fond of saying “time wounds all heels”, and in this case, time acted pretty quickly. Within a few weeks of the SFA Committee’s decision, Mr McFadden whose “word of honour” the Committee had accepted in preference to the more obvious truth of the Vale evidence, fled to Canada with Hibernian’s funds, swollen of course by the Cup Final takings, and money belonging to the Archdiocese of Edinburgh. He was never heard of again. You can imagine the “we told you so” coming out of the Vale and hopefully a few red faces in the SFA when news of McFadden’s theft came out.

[Jonnyboy]

“My word of honour” - The Hibernian Affair

In season 1886-87 the Vale were able to expose the fiction of amateurism practiced by Hibernian in particular, but judging from the comments of many other SFA members, it’s a fair assumption that many clubs were paying players in contravention of the rules. That season the Vale won through to a semi-final against Hibernian without too much difficulty. The game was eventually played in Edinburgh in January 1887 (bad weather delayed it), and Hibs won 3-1. The Vale lodged a number of protests against the result immediately after the match. The most important of these was an accusation of professionalism against Hibs,

As soon as the protests were made, they were handled by the appropriate SFA committee, which met within a few days to consider their merits. There were two concerns voiced by some members of this committee, neither of which suggested that the facts in the case were going to be given a fair consideration. The first was that some committee members felt that because a date had been set for the cup final, time was of the essence and the matter had to be dealt with in the shortest possible time. The second was that if the Vale were proved right in their accusation of professionalism, then every other Hibs opponent from the first round onwards would have to be re-instated and a whole series of new games played throughout a succession of rounds. Some members made it clear that no matter what Hibs had done, they did not want the competition to be delayed or replayed. Hardly the fairest approach to considering the merits of the Vale’s protests, All of the other protests were quickly dismissed by the SFA committee, but that of professionalism was not.

After a 5 hour meeting at which the Hibs secretary, Mr McFadden, was grilled about payments to players, which he totally denied, it was decided to give the Vale 10 days to add substance to the accusation. The 10 days was actually the time limit which the Hibs secretary, McFadden, had asked be set on the investigation and this was further evidence of the less than even-handed approach of the Committee.

Two things are clear from that meeting. Firstly, the Hearts representative on the Committee had information, perhaps common gossip in Edinburgh, about possible payments to specific Hibs players, and he wasn’t going to let the matter just die quietly. Secondly, many Committee members thought that the 10 day limit would effectively close the matter down by not giving the Vale enough time to collect anything other than hearsay evidence. It’s probably fair to say that while there were those on the Committee who were happy to see Hibs mildly embarrassed, nobody expected or hoped that the Vale could prove their case with substantive evidence. The Committee members thought that they had kicked the ball into the long grass. However, they should have known better, since to slightly paraphrase Dr Johnston’s phrase about Scotsmen in general, “no one would mistake a Valeman with a grievance for a ray of sunshine”.

Even to-day, with modern high quality video evidence we have seen in many cases of monetary inducements either being offered or solicited in a number of different sports that proving illegality is notoriously difficult. 120 years ago it was infinitely more so, especially with the time limit set by the Committee. However, the Vale acted with speed and energy. They promptly hired a private detective to investigate Hibs. This was very daring and modern – Sherlock Holmes had not yet been created and private detectives were few and far between in Britain. Perhaps the most surprising thing about the whole affair was the amount of evidence which this detective managed to unearth in the few days available to him.

At the reconvened meeting of the SFA Committee on Thursday 10th February 1887, the private detective produced witnesses who claimed that:

the best Hibs forward, Willie Groves, was publicly boasting, and had boasted to them personally, that Hibs paid him, the whole Hibs team seemed not to be at work in the week before the game, and spent their time in a hotel in Edinburgh lunching and lounging about. The hotel owner appeared in front of the Committee and gave evidence to that effect.

Witnesses had been threatened with violence if they gave evidence of other payments made to Hibs players. To this piece of testimony the Hearts representative added his own statement that he too had been threatened by Hibs people for offering evidence of payments, the detective produced a number of letters and statements from people who couldn’t attend the committee meeting, but the committee refused to admit them as evidence.

Mr McFadden, the Hibs Secretary, was now put on the spot by the most damning piece of evidence, which proved the Vale’s case beyond any reasonable doubt. That evidence came from Hibs themselves in the shape of their cash book. The SFA had had anti-professionalism rules for a few years which required each club to have its cash book ready for inspection at a moment’s notice. The Committee asked Hibs to produce the cash book covering the last three years. During these three years there had been a number of different Hibs treasurers and secretaries who would all have made entries of income received and payments made. It should have consisted of a number of different sets of handwriting and inks. Instead, the entries in the Hibs cash book given to the Committee were all written in the same hand and looked as if it had all been written on the same day. The hapless Mr McFadden said he did not know why that was the case, because, he said, the cash book would have been posted up week by week. “I give you my word of honour it has not been written up for the occasion” he assured the Committee, The cash book entries also forced him to admit that the Hibs players had been paid, not only for time lost from work, but also for practice matches. Now proceedings took a comic turn. McFadden’s evidence was followed immediately by that from the player Groves who had clearly been told, in the best Baldric from Blackadder Goes Forth fashion, to deny everything.

Obviously McFadden did not have time to update Groves that he, McFadden, had had to admit that certain payments had been made to players, including Groves. So Groves tells the Committee that he had received no payments whatsoever from anyone at Hibs for anything at any time, in flat contradiction to McFadden. Needless to say, he couldn’t explain why McFadden had just said the exact opposite.

That should have been game up for Hibs, but this, after all, is the SFA that we are dealing with, so consistency and common sense can’t be counted on. This second meeting was held on Thursday February 10th and the final was due to be played on Saturday 12th i.e. in two days time. This was a situation which the SFA had allowed itself to be manoeuvred into by Hibs. The difficulties of throwing Hibs out of the Cup were bad enough, but to delay the Cup Final was probably the key consideration for the Committee chairman, who was very much an SFA man. When the meeting voted on whether or not the Vale had proved its case, the Committee members divided equally. After a wrangle about a secret vote, the meeting voted again, but it was tied again. The chairman used his casting voted to side with Hibs, saying they had had a narrow escape. It was a disgrace, of course, all the more galling for the Vale because of their experiences 13 years before in the John Ferguson Affair. McFadden claimed that Hibs had been exonerated and asked the Vale to withdraw their accusations. The Vale replied that Hibs had not been exonerated, certainly not to the public at large and particularly not to the Vale. The Vale never withdrew its accusation and the public at large mostly agreed and sympathised with them,

Hibs subsequent win in the cup final against Dumbarton two days later was widely viewed as tainted, but that was little consolation to the Vale. There was one indirect result of Hibs victory and this was altogether more positive. At the Hibs celebration dinner after their Cup Final win, McFadden told some of Hibs’ Glasgow well-wishers that Glasgow should form its own Irish football club. One of the attendees was Brother Walfrid and he was taken with the idea since he was looking for some way to help the poor of the east end of Glasgow, many of whom, but by no means all, were Irish immigrants. His vision, however, was far more expansive and inclusive than the Hibs model at the time.





Hi glasgow

Fascinating read - where was this published?

Also what are your views on the suggestion that many of the Hibs players enticed to Celtic in 1888 were rewarded by the giving of monies and in at least one instance ownership of a public house?

Seems likely that the game was not as clean as some would suggest. :wink:

[glasgow]

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply

The article is something i have had in my archives which was saved long time ago for a rainy day, not sure when or where it was published

First of all i would like to give my opinion on the article: It does challenge the view of Hibernian FC as being very much sinned against when, in reality, their success was largely down to having secured the services of the best Irish/Catholic players on the scene with under-the-counter payments, exactly what they criticised Celtic for subsequently. As the Vale of Leven experience suggests, the people running Hibs were no strangers to many of the tactics which they publicly 'deplored'. after reading and digesting this article the Hibees high moral ground doesn't look quite so secure anymore.

[Purple & Green]

Hi glasgow

Fascinating read - where was this published?

Also what are your views on the suggestion that many of the Hibs players enticed to Celtic in 1888 were rewarded by the giving of monies and in at least one instance ownership of a public house?

Seems likely that the game was not as clean as some would suggest. :wink:

As the 'article' includes the phrases


120 years ago it was infinitely more so, especially with the time limit set by the Committee

and


There was one indirect result of Hibs victory and this was altogether more positive. At the Hibs celebration dinner after their Cup Final win, McFadden told some of Hibs’ Glasgow well-wishers that Glasgow should form its own Irish football club. One of the attendees was Brother Walfrid and he was taken with the idea since he was looking for some way to help the poor of the east end of Glasgow, many of whom, but by no means all, were Irish immigrants. His vision, however, was far more expansive and inclusive than the Hibs model at the time.

I'd suggest the article is merely the modern trend for faction as exemplified by Celtic Football club.

[1875STEVE]

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply

The article is something i have had in my archives which was saved long time ago for a rainy day, not sure when or where it was published

First of all i would like to give my opinion on the article: It does challenge the view of Hibernian FC as being very much sinned against when, in reality, their success was largely down to having secured the services of the best Irish/Catholic players on the scene with under-the-counter payments, exactly what they criticised Celtic for subsequently. As the Vale of Leven experience suggests, the people running Hibs were no strangers to many of the tactics which they publicly 'deplored'. after reading and digesting this article the Hibees high moral ground doesn't look quite so secure anymore.

Im sorry but this smacks of pure desperation from Celtic supporters to try and make their club look better.

Why would Hibs pay to "secure the best Irish players" when nobody else, before Celtic arrived, would give them a game?????

The didn't have to pay them.

Hibs WERE sinned against, get over it.

Also find it funny that you can't remember where it was publised.

Bet it's a por-Celtic publication. :rolleyes:

[glasgow]

Somehow i dont think you read the article, if you did you would have clearly seen that its a Vale of Leven slant on what took place at the time,

As for me remembering when it was published, i have a online archive relating to Celtic, thousands of written articles and photographs of our early history most of which has been taken from the internet over the last 12 years, do try and copy some written material today and remember the source in a years time, i believe i first read this article 10 years ago and had no reason to remember the source as its obviously V-O-L orientated and has no Celtic FC influence whatsoever

I was hoping someone who has great knowledge of Hibernian FC early history would have replied to my posts, it appears to me that those ones have either not read the article or know it to be as read, no shame in not knowing your early history as i have a brother who has hardly missed a Celtic Match in 40 years and possibly very few in 50 years, when i mentioned i was attending a day for John Glass on Sunday (who i consider 2nd only to Brother Walfrid in Celtic FC early history) he did not know who he was and he had never heard of him..

[glasgow]

Jonnyboy i do not want to quote the whole article and by your response to it i can see you prefer to deal with facts and do know your history:wink:

Jim Craig who i consider a educated student of Celtic FC and its History once wrote a article for the Celtic View which i will quote:


The initial founding of Celtic in 1887, a group of enthusiasts in the east end of Glasgow decide to start a football club. With great enthusiasm they set about their task, lease the land, start building and within six months they have a lovely new stadium.

Only then does the committee decide to bring in some players. And who comes in? Not just any novice or has-been, but quality stars like Kelly and McCallum from Renton plus Dunbar, McKeown, McLaren and Groves from Hibs. And why should players of this standard join a brand new club? Yes, you've guessed it right; Celtic must have paid them - illegally. Within a year young Kelly went from a £2 a week joiner to the purchaser of a pub for £650!!

From my extensive reading on our early history I totally agree with Jim Craig :thumbsup:

[Purple & Green]

Somehow i dont think you read the article, if you did you would have clearly seen that its a Vale of Leven slant on what took place at the time,

There's nothing in the article that's new - it's all been covered in previous Hibs histories in a more balanced manner.

As for the article being from a "Vale of Leven" slant, I think the best you can say is that it's a Celtic take on what a Vale of Leven slant might have been. Quite what Billy McNeill has to do with Vale of Leven, I'm not sure.

What is unexplained by the article, is why Hibs players would up and leave for Celtic if they were professionals in all but name at Hibs. That would have made no sense then, and it still makes no sense now.

The article is acutely ignorant in suggesting that Hibs were not expansive and inclusive - Hibs were founded to give a football team to the people that every other team excluded.

Edit: the original article seems to have come from here http://www.valeofleven.org.uk/football05.html which is an interesting enough site, but the fawning references to Celtic are bizarre in the context of the content and what the site is about i.e. Vale of Leven.

[glasgow]

Its a Celtic slant, its a Vale of Leven slant, its a Celtic :confused:

Thanks for finding the source:thumbsup:

[hibbybrian]

The game was eventually played in Edinburgh in January 1887 and Hibs won 3-1. The Vale lodged a number of protests against the result immediately after the match. The most important of these was an accusation of professionalism against Hibs

The tie had been scheduled for the 15th but was postponed by the Ref at the last minute with both teams, including Willie Groves on the field and less than 2 months prior to the cup tie Vale had played Hibs and Groves was in the Hibs team - why was the protest lodged only after they lost?


As soon as the protests were made, they were handled by the appropriate SFA committee, which met within a few days to consider their merits. All of the other protests were quickly dismissed by the SFA committee, but that of professionalism was not. After a 5 hour meeting at which the Hibs secretary, Mr McFadden, was grilled about payments to players, which he totally denied, it was decided to give the Vale 10 days to add substance to the accusation. The 10 days was actually the time limit which the Hibs secretary, had asked be set on the investigation and this was further evidence of the less than even-handed approach of the Committee. Two things are clear from that meeting. Firstly, the Hearts representative on the Committee had information, perhaps common gossip in Edinburgh, about possible payments to specific Hibs players, and he wasn’t going to let the matter just die quietly. Secondly, many Committee members thought that the 10 day limit would effectively close the matter down by not giving the Vale enough time to collect anything other than hearsay evidence.

Hibs did not enter in the first round - our first tie was a 5-1 win over Hearts and the only other cup game prior to the SF with Vale was won 7-3 againt QoS Wanderers - the point made is factually incorrect.

It is also fair to assume that the 10 days was given due to the fact that the final was 12 days away on 12th February - the next meeting when Vale were to give substantiation was therefore 19 days after the protest was lodged which hardly seems less than even handed.

Hibernian were represented at the meeting by John McFadden whilst Vale had 3 people making representation- their Detective, their Mr Campbell and their Mr Spence, who is misrepresented in the Vale report as Hearts representative on THE Committee but was rather an ex-Hearts committee man who had been on Hearts committee in October 1884 when Hearts were found guilty of Professionalism.


At the reconvened meeting of the SFA Committee on Thursday 10th February 1887, the private detective produced witnesses who claimed that:

Willie Groves, was publicly boasting, and had boasted to them personally, that Hibs paid him, the whole Hibs team seemed not to be at work in the week before the game, and spent their time in a hotel in Edinburgh lunching and lounging about. The hotel owner appeared in front of the Committee and gave evidence to that effect.

Witnesses had been threatened with violence if they gave evidence of other payments made to Hibs players. To this piece of testimony the Hearts representative added his own statement that he too had been threatened by Hibs people for offering evidence of payments, the detective produced a number of letters and statements from people who couldn’t attend the committee meeting, but the committee refused to admit them as evidence.

This is incorrect as at the meeting on the evening of Thursday 10th February, only John McFadden and the 3 Vale representatives were questioned. At the conclusion of the meeting, Vale were required to produce a written report the next day and a further meeting was arranged for the 15th.


Mr McFadden, the Hibs Secretary, was now put on the spot by the most damning piece of evidence, which proved the Vale’s case beyond any reasonable doubt. That evidence came from Hibs themselves in the shape of their cash book. The SFA had had anti-professionalism rules for a few years which required each club to have its cash book ready for inspection at a moment’s notice. The Committee asked Hibs to produce the cash book covering the last three years. During these three years there had been a number of different Hibs treasurers and secretaries who would all have made entries of income received and payments made. It should have consisted of a number of different sets of handwriting and inks. Instead, the entries in the Hibs cash book given to the Committee were all written in the same hand and looked as if it had all been written on the same day. The hapless Mr McFadden said he did not know why that was the case, because, he said, the cash book would have been posted up week by week. “I give you my word of honour it has not been written up for the occasion” he assured the Committee, The cash book entries also forced him to admit that the Hibs players had been paid, not only for time lost from work, but also for practice matches. Now proceedings took a comic turn. McFadden’s evidence was followed immediately by that from the player Groves who had clearly been told, in the best Baldric from Blackadder Goes Forth fashion, to deny everything.

Obviously McFadden did not have time to update Groves that he, McFadden, had had to admit that certain payments had been made to players, including Groves. So Groves tells the Committee that he had received no payments whatsoever from anyone at Hibs for anything at any time, in flat contradiction to McFadden. Needless to say, he couldn’t explain why McFadden had just said the exact opposite.

That should have been game up for Hibs, but this, after all, is the SFA that we are dealing with, so consistency and common sense can’t be counted on. This second meeting was held on Thursday February 10th and the final was due to be played on Saturday 12th i.e. in two days time. This was a situation which the SFA had allowed itself to be manoeuvred into by Hibs. The difficulties of throwing Hibs out of the Cup were bad enough, but to delay the Cup Final was probably the key consideration for the Committee chairman, who was very much an SFA man. When the meeting voted on whether or not the Vale had proved its case, the Committee members divided equally. After a wrangle about a secret vote, the meeting voted again, but it was tied again. The chairman used his casting voted to side with Hibs, saying they had had a narrow escape. It was a disgrace, of course, all the more galling for the Vale because of their experiences 13 years before in the John Ferguson Affair. McFadden claimed that Hibs had been exonerated and asked the Vale to withdraw their accusations. The Vale replied that Hibs had not been exonerated, certainly not to the public at large and particularly not to the Vale. The Vale never withdrew its accusation and the public at large mostly agreed and sympathised with them,

Hibs subsequent win in the cup final against Dumbarton two days later was widely viewed as tainted, but that was little consolation to the Vale.

All this happened on the 15th, 3 days after Hibernian had won the cup

On the 15th, the meeting started with evidence from Vale, the accuser with Hibernian later being called for their response.

First up was an ex-worker from Willie Groves work who stated that Willie had said that he had received payment from Hibs, but he did not say how much or what for (it was perfectly legal to collect expenses for lost pay, piece work etc) and when questioned, he admitted that he did not know Willie very well and he had not been threatened in any way.

Next up were the Vale representatives who mentioned the players had breakfast in St Marys Street Halls and dinner in the Suburban Hotel.

Willie Groves was next and he agreed that he had been paid by Hibs for loss of earnings such as 3/6 for a game in Dundee and 10/- for a trip to Middlesbrough and other times for loss of earnings. He also admitted that the players ate at the Hotel but at the expense of staunc Hibernian supporters such as a Paddy McGrail but had never breakfasted at St Marys Halls.

Next was Mr Wallace, the proprietor of the Suburban Hotel who stated that he was under strict instruction from Hibernian not to supply the players with food or refreshments at the expense of the club except when the club were entertaining visitors from other clubs. He added that he had outstanding bills from some of the players who had meals at their own expense.

Last up was John McFadden who admitted that he paid players for lost wages when on duty for the club and further that perhaps 3/6 was generous for a day in Dundee.

A vote was taken and the result was 6 - 6 and with 6 abstentions. A second vote resulted 9 - 9 and Hibernian were given the casting vote of the Chairman (Queens Park - a staunchy amateur club so hardly likely to take proffessionalism lightly)

As for the books made out in the same hand and ink, it is entirely possible that the Treasurer or Secretary would have a long-term Clerk who handled the books which would then be signed off - presumably all with the same type of ink for the quill.

Vale appealed the decision of the meeting on 15th February and the appeal was due to be heard on 8th March 1887 - however a telegraph was received from Vale stating

"We withdraw appeal lodged against the Hibernians" and Hibernian were finally handed the Scottish Cup almost 4 weeks after winning the trophy :thumbsup:

7607

[hibbybrian]

McFadden told some of Hibs’ Glasgow well-wishers that Glasgow should form its own Irish football club. One of the attendees was Brother Walfrid and he was taken with the idea since he was looking for some way to help the poor of the east end of Glasgow, many of whom, but by no means all, were Irish immigrants. His vision, however, was far more expansive and inclusive than the Hibs model at the time.The Football Club which Brother Walfrid formed in Glasgow’s east end was to embrace both Scots and Irish supporters and players, on the basis that both Scots and Irish were Celts. That was reflected in the original pronunciation of the football club which had a hard “C” at the beginning i.e. “Keltic”. Almost from the outset, Celtic had of course a Renton connection: the great Renton centre half James Kelly and the Renton forward Neil McCallum went to play for them in the spring of 1888. So if the Vale had forced Hibs’ expulsion, Celtic would not have been founded when they were and perhaps not on the basis on which they were either.

Strange comment for him to make given that Cambuslang Hibernian and Glasgow Hibernian both pre-date the formation of Glasgow Celtic as of course do Partick Celts


The final word on the affair no doubt gave some grim satisfaction in the Vale. As Billy McNeil, one of the finest players and gentlemen ever to grace the Scottish game, is fond of saying “time wounds all heels”, and in this case, time acted pretty quickly. Within a few weeks of the SFA Committee’s decision, Mr McFadden whose “word of honour” the Committee had accepted in preference to the more obvious truth of the Vale evidence, fled to Canada with Hibernian’s funds, swollen of course by the Cup Final takings, and money belonging to the Archdiocese of Edinburgh. He was never heard of again. You can imagine the “we told you so” coming out of the Vale and hopefully a few red faces in the SFA when news of McFadden’s theft came out.

Rather than absonding to Canada within a few weeks of the meeting on 8th March 1887, John McFadden was actually appointed to the SFA Committee on Professionalism in August 1888 and he subsequently resigned from his position as Hibernian Secretary and was succeeded by Tom Nolan. John McFadden was later appointed as Secretary to the Edinburgh CYMS and in March 1889, some 2 years after the meeting he absconded to North America with the princely sum of 260 pounds from the CYMS funds.

Perhaps the writer of the article should have spent a bit more time on reseaching the "facts" he propounds rather than watching Blackadder for his comedic embellishments :greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

Strange comment for him to make given that Cambuslang Hibernian and Glasgow Hibernian both pre-date the formation of Glasgow Celtic as of course do Partick Celts



Rather than absonding to Canada within a few weeks of the meeting on 8th March 1887, John McFadden was actually appointed to the SFA Committee on Professionalism in August 1888 and he subsequently resigned from his position as Hibernian Secretary and was succeeded by Tom Nolan. John McFadden was later appointed as Secretary to the Edinburgh CYMS and in March 1889, some 2 years after the meeting he absconded to North America with the princely sum of 260 pounds from the CYMS funds.

Perhaps the writer of the article should have spent a bit more time on reseaching the "facts" he propounds rather than watching Blackadder for his comedic embellishments :greengrin

Nice one Brian :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

Nice one Brian :greengrin

Well done on puting the typical Celtic revisionist right on these matters.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Also, not sure how it can be very rare when it is a picture on the internet? Millions will have access to it:confused:

[andudare2]

Strange comment for him to make given that Cambuslang Hibernian and Glasgow Hibernian both pre-date the formation of Glasgow Celtic as of course do Partick Celts



Rather than absonding to Canada within a few weeks of the meeting on 8th March 1887, John McFadden was actually appointed to the SFA Committee on Professionalism in August 1888 and he subsequently resigned from his position as Hibernian Secretary and was succeeded by Tom Nolan. John McFadden was later appointed as Secretary to the Edinburgh CYMS and in March 1889, some 2 years after the meeting he absconded to North America with the princely sum of 260 pounds from the CYMS funds.

Perhaps the writer of the article should have spent a bit more time on reseaching the "facts" he propounds rather than watching Blackadder for his comedic embellishments :greengrintypical celtic misrepresentation of facts. you have the truth, the whole truth, then the celtic version of the truth. strangely enought the last one is always the one they choose to believe!!!!!!. cracking post by the way mate.

[Kato]

You can imagine the “we told you so” coming out of the Vale and hopefully a few red faces in the SFA when news of McFadden’s theft came out.

When reading historical reading matter it's best to be as cold hearted as possible so as to avoid bias being read into a piece and extracting bias from a piece to come to a conclusion one favours.

Looking at both angles here it seems we are faced with a choice of choosing from either a well judged presentation of primary sources or "You can imagine....". I think the latter wins the day hands down.

Saying that when it comes to Hibernian I've always found Celtic fans imagine a lot, even when faced with factual evidence they cling onto "You can imagine..."



As the Vale of Leven experience suggests, the people running Hibs were no strangers to many of the tactics which they publicly 'deplored'. after reading and digesting this article the Hibees high moral ground doesn't look quite so secure anymore.

Why would you pick out an article, take it for granted without any recourse to looking at further reading then try and get a leg up onto the "moral high ground".


One of the attendees was Brother Walfrid and he was taken with the idea since he was looking for some way to help the poor of the east end of Glasgow, many of whom, but by no means all, were Irish immigrants. His vision, however, was far more expansive and inclusive than the Hibs model at the time.

It's an interesting idea that Walfrid was attempting to be more inclusive than Hibs who were bound by being the team of the CYMS. Walfrid of course was a Hibs fan of the longest standing in Glasgow even to the point of acting as their kit-man when Hibs played through there and setting up the dressing room prior to the team's arrival. I don't know if he ever attempted to get some validity from the CYMS in Glasgow but it remains that Celtic had no Church connection at their inception. What has to said is that although Hibernian only included CYMS members they were an expansive club helping almost one hundred other football clubs set-up.

There's a couple of other strands to this story. Celtic took advantage of members of the Edinburgh CYMS' support for Irish Home Rule. Whilst committee men and players of Hibs were stopped from playing by the Catholic Church, which suspended all CYMS activities for a while due to their support of Parnell's call to Civil Disobedience, Celtic being run and financed by John Glass had no such hindrance and could continue playing on - during that time a few Hibs players were persuaded to go west.

The other matter is Bro. Walfrid's rapid exit from Celtic. What gives with that? One theory is that he was called away by his parish down to work in London the other is that he left of his own accord, sickened by Glass's greed.

The other (cheeky) question is - Exactly how much money did the Celtic board provide toward The Poor Children's Dinner Table compared to the money they took over the counter in their Gin Palaces from the The Poor Children's parents?

I think (or I can imagine:aok:) there's a Celtic history book (McNee's) which details that they didn't provide that much at first then nothing at all, as to Glass et al's personal income it's safe to say they and their offspring probably earned more from Celtic than their boozers.

Hope your big enough to come back glasgow as you took a pounding from hibbybrian there, it should be acknowledged.

[Iggy Pope]

This is an excellent thread and Hibbybrian is truly HibbyPetrocelli . He and Kato have walked all over your 'view / slant' there Glasgow. You letting that lie?

[bawheid]

Owned.

End of.

[glasgow]

The tie had been scheduled for the 15th but was postponed by the Ref at the last minute with both teams, including Willie Groves on the field and less than 2 months prior to the cup tie Vale had played Hibs and Groves was in the Hibs team - why was the protest lodged only after they lost?



Hibs did not enter in the first round - our first tie was a 5-1 win over Hearts and the only other cup game prior to the SF with Vale was won 7-3 againt QoS Wanderers - the point made is factually incorrect.

It is also fair to assume that the 10 days was given due to the fact that the final was 12 days away on 12th February - the next meeting when Vale were to give substantiation was therefore 19 days after the protest was lodged which hardly seems less than even handed.

Hibernian were represented at the meeting by John McFadden whilst Vale had 3 people making representation- their Detective, their Mr Campbell and their Mr Spence, who is misrepresented in the Vale report as Hearts representative on THE Committee but was rather an ex-Hearts committee man who had been on Hearts committee in October 1884 when Hearts were found guilty of Professionalism.



This is incorrect as at the meeting on the evening of Thursday 10th February, only John McFadden and the 3 Vale representatives were questioned. At the conclusion of the meeting, Vale were required to produce a written report the next day and a further meeting was arranged for the 15th.



All this happened on the 15th, 3 days after Hibernian had won the cup

On the 15th, the meeting started with evidence from Vale, the accuser with Hibernian later being called for their response.

First up was an ex-worker from Willie Groves work who stated that Willie had said that he had received payment from Hibs, but he did not say how much or what for (it was perfectly legal to collect expenses for lost pay, piece work etc) and when questioned, he admitted that he did not know Willie very well and he had not been threatened in any way.

Next up were the Vale representatives who mentioned the players had breakfast in St Marys Street Halls and dinner in the Suburban Hotel.

Willie Groves was next and he agreed that he had been paid by Hibs for loss of earnings such as 3/6 for a game in Dundee and 10/- for a trip to Middlesbrough and other times for loss of earnings. He also admitted that the players ate at the Hotel but at the expense of staunc Hibernian supporters such as a Paddy McGrail but had never breakfasted at St Marys Halls.

Next was Mr Wallace, the proprietor of the Suburban Hotel who stated that he was under strict instruction from Hibernian not to supply the players with food or refreshments at the expense of the club except when the club were entertaining visitors from other clubs. He added that he had outstanding bills from some of the players who had meals at their own expense.

Last up was John McFadden who admitted that he paid players for lost wages when on duty for the club and further that perhaps 3/6 was generous for a day in Dundee.

A vote was taken and the result was 6 - 6 and with 6 abstentions. A second vote resulted 9 - 9 and Hibernian were given the casting vote of the Chairman (Queens Park - a staunchy amateur club so hardly likely to take proffessionalism lightly)

As for the books made out in the same hand and ink, it is entirely possible that the Treasurer or Secretary would have a long-term Clerk who handled the books which would then be signed off - presumably all with the same type of ink for the quill.

Vale appealed the decision of the meeting on 15th February and the appeal was due to be heard on 8th March 1887 - however a telegraph was received from Vale stating

"We withdraw appeal lodged against the Hibernians" and Hibernian were finally handed the Scottish Cup almost 4 weeks after winning the trophy :thumbsup:

7607


Not really familiar with the forum but if you have a poster of the month get HibbyBrian nominated:not worth just the response i was hoping for, picked out a few untruths myself especially with this part:


Within a few weeks of the SFA Committee’s decision, Mr McFadden whose “word of honour” the Committee had accepted in preference to the more obvious truth of the Vale evidence, fled to Canada with Hibernian’s funds, swollen of course by the Cup Final takings, and money belonging to the Archdiocese of Edinburgh. He was never heard of again. You can imagine the “we told you so” coming out of the Vale and hopefully a few red faces in the SFA when news of McFadden’s theft came out.

still cannot see the Celtic slant in that VOL article

[glasgow]

Also, not sure how it can be very rare when it is a picture on the internet? Millions will have access to it:confused:



Change that POTM nomination for HB to this one:top marks

[glasgow]

This is an excellent thread and Hibbybrian is truly HibbyPetrocelli . He and Kato have walked all over your 'view / slant' there Glasgow. You letting that lie?

:confused:

[glasgow]

Owned.

End of.

Hope no

Love reading about the Hibees early stuff:thumbsup:

[Iggy Pope]

:confused:

Take that as a yes then. Without us you'd be nothing and it sticks in yer craw that we won the Scottish Cup with a team of Irishmen, all proud Catholics and nationalists, before you bought your way in and pretended to be something the same. Facts are always better than versions.

[glasgow]

Take that as a yes then. Without us you'd be nothing and it sticks in yer craw that we won the Scottish Cup with a team of Irishmen, all proud Catholics and nationalists, before you bought your way in and pretended to be something the same. Facts are always better than versions.

Sorry not got a clue what your on about:confused::confused:

[glasgow]

Will look in sometime see if the thread is still alive :wink:

[Iggy Pope]

Will look in sometime see if the thread is still alive :wink:

Well, Hibbybrian seems to have provided the necessary impetus, thought, insight and narrative but with his absence you seem to have got a bit, well, pointless.
Maybe later.
EGB.

[Kato]

Will look in sometime see if the thread is still alive :wink:


You can keep it alive yourself, glasgow.

The above query abut Bro. Walfrid's exit from Celtic was genuine. Do you have anything on this in your collection of Celtic slanted:wink: articles?

[Waxy]

They stole our players.
They have stolen our players ever since.
Lets getintaethem.

[hibsbollah]

They stole our players.
They have stolen our players ever since.
Lets getintaethem.

****in amen to that

[monktonharp]

Celtic fan here who has registered to show a very rare pic of a Celtic Team which has recently been discovered by the Celtic Graves Society, the pic is from the Corinthians v Celtic 16th February 1889. Note the names Phil Clarke and Pat Dowling at the front who were on loan from Hibs, i just thought this pic would be important to the Hibs Historian out there.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3822/celtic89.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/celtic89.jpg/)well done to you for digging oot that auld photie. you will get some stick on here, nae doot but thanks fur that. why did everyone have mostaches then? was it before mach 3 razors were invented? :greengrin can still be a bit o' a bugger, when yer tryin' tae get they wee bits near yer nose done, without cutting yersel:wink:

[MSK]

well done to you for digging oot that auld photie. you will get some stick on here, nae doot but thanks fur that. why did everyone have mostaches then? was it before mach 3 razors were invented? :greengrin can still be a bit o' a bugger, when yer tryin' tae get they wee bits near yer nose done, without cutting yersel:wink:Oi ..my great great ..not so great Uncle is in that pic, can ye spot him ...:greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Oi ..my great great ..not so great Uncle is in that pic, can ye spot him ...:greengrin

Is he the one with the mostache

[MSK]

Is he the one with the mostacheMmmm...close ...:agree:

[nic81]

Think Glasgow has taken some unfair stick here, HibbyBrian and Glasgow have made this thread really interesting and i have enjoyed it but some folk need to get a grip, Celtic will always have issues with us and vice versa, it's about time we all got over it!