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patlowe
07-04-2011, 11:22 AM
I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

Alex Trager
07-04-2011, 11:27 AM
How longs he been in the job now? As soon as the unbeaten run ends people begin to doubt him...AGAIN
Still has the same ***** players he had at the start except a few of his own... surely needs another transfer window? Personally i dont care if hibs dont play with 'flair' if they get results. I'd imagine he does indeed have a long term plan

Franck is God
07-04-2011, 11:28 AM
Calderwood's job in January was to put a side on the pitch to avoid being dragged into a prolonged relegation battle. That has now been achieved with the minimum of fuss.

Top six two months ago would have been laughed at however we almost gave ourselves a wee chance of making it thanks to a good run of results.

Last night we got beat away from home by the best team in the country so to suggest that it is simply history repeating itself is surely the quickest kneejerk ever?

Alex Trager
07-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Calderwood's job in January was to put a side on the pitch to avoid being dragged into a prolonged relegation battle. That has now been achieved with the minimum of fuss.

Top six two months ago would have been laughed at however we almost gave ourselves a wee chance of making it thanks to a good run of results.

Last night we got beat away from home by the best team in the country so to suggest that it is simply history repeating itself is surely the quickest kneejerk ever?
Just saying, after ayr i said as we left sommerset, we'll be challenging for top six and was laughed at, however i put hibernian to finish in the top six on at 80-1 and every week people would say that my bet had such a good chance to come in.. Obviously it wont now but thats not the point

Andy74
07-04-2011, 11:40 AM
I don't think so.

Any team can go on a bad run but there was a combination of things that made our run happen and as it went on it became more difficult to get back out.

We currently don't really have any of those things happening, other than a couple of players missing, it was just a bad night against a good team.

patlowe
07-04-2011, 11:44 AM
Gosh, people are sensitive on here. It's not a "kneejerk reaction", I'm quite happy with CC as manager and am impressed with the moderate stability he has brought. I could have just as easily posted this four weeks ago as I do not base my opinion on a defeat to Celtic at Parkhead! I just feel this is a similar scenario to the beginning of Yogi's tenure and as such, I have similar reservations about the current team.

hibee62
07-04-2011, 11:51 AM
Gosh, people are sensitive on here. It's not a "kneejerk reaction", I'm quite happy with CC as manager and am impressed with the moderate stability he has brought. I could have just as easily posted this four weeks ago as I do not base my opinion on a defeat to Celtic at Parkhead! I just feel this is a similar scenario to the beginning of Yogi's tenure and as such, I have similar reservations about the current team.

The difference is that instead of being told a player he liked was available and signing him without any thought as to whether he was needed or not (Cregg, McBride) Calderwood has identified where improvements were needed and signed players on that basis:

Right back: Towell
Strong midfielder: Palsson
Creative: Vaz Te
Big guy upfront: Sodje

Given this he will do the same in the summer and we will be better still...

patlowe
07-04-2011, 12:08 PM
The difference is that instead of being told a player he liked was available and signing him without any thought as to whether he was needed or not (Cregg, McBride) Calderwood has identified where improvements were needed and signed players on that basis:

Right back: Towell
Strong midfielder: Palsson
Creative: Vaz Te
Big guy upfront: Sodje

Given this he will do the same in the summer and we will be better still...

Fair point but I'd argue that some of Yogi's signings were similarly targeted. Hart appeared a good signing for RB which was a problem area (though it's not quite worked out!) and McBride/Miller were definitely required through the middle. As I say, the good results Yogi achieved early on gave the impression that he had the midas touch in terms of signings and results but the reality was that we scraped a few results before being found out.

As for CC's signings, I'm 100% giving them all the benefit of the doubt but I'm pretty unconvinced by Scott, Thornhill and Sodje. Pallson has the athleticism and potential to go far but I'd question his technical ability up to this point. Vaz Te I have high hopes for but he has "Benji" written all over him (not necessarily a bad thing!). Towell is another with potential and I'd like to see him stay.

hibee62
07-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Fair point but I'd argue that some of Yogi's signings were similarly targeted. Hart appeared a good signing for RB which was a problem area (though it's not quite worked out!) and McBride/Miller were definitely required through the middle. As I say, the good results Yogi achieved early on gave the impression that he had the midas touch in terms of signings and results but the reality was that we scraped a few results before being found out.

As for CC's signings, I'm 100% giving them all the benefit of the doubt but I'm pretty unconvinced by Scott, Thornhill and Sodje. Pallson has the athleticism and potential to go far but I'd question his technical ability up to this point. Vaz Te I have high hopes for but he has "Benji" written all over him (not necessarily a bad thing!). Towell is another with potential and I'd like to see him stay.

I think Sodje is unspectacular but gives us something we don't have and definitely contributes to the team. Agree re Thornhill and Scott. Palsson I think looks the pick of them and I think Towell looks good but will probably be heading back...

Elephant Stone
07-04-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

I had similar worries, but I'm quite confident we won't see a similar pattern.

I see more potential in the current squad than I saw in Yogi's unconvincing team that went on the decent run and I'm hoping that they'll continue to improve further.

dangermouse
07-04-2011, 12:19 PM
I think Sodje is unspectacular but gives us something we don't have and definitely contributes to the team. Agree re Thornhill and Scott. Palsson I think looks the pick of them and I think Towell looks good but will probably be heading back...

I think Thornhill will turn out to be a really good player for us. He was injured just before he signed and with a good pre season and regular first team action I reckon he will be a first pick next season.

Albion Hibs
07-04-2011, 12:22 PM
I dont think we can say it is the same as with Yogi or that things have not improved. Since the January window we have been a much better team, and unlike the run under Yogi I dont think there are any games I would say we definatly got a result that we did not deserve, if anything maybe the opposite when you look at games like Sunday.

Whilst I am not convinced that some of the signings are anything more than 'get us safely to the end of the season ones', they have certainly managed to get rid of all of the relegation threads from this board, which in the space of 7 games is a pretty reasonable achievement.

I think Calderwood has showen he can identify a problem and prepare a fix. Hopefully come the summer window his judgements are as good and we can take on a couple more players that make us more competative at the end of the table we all want to be playing at.

Andy74
07-04-2011, 12:26 PM
The difference is that instead of being told a player he liked was available and signing him without any thought as to whether he was needed or not (Cregg, McBride) Calderwood has identified where improvements were needed and signed players on that basis:

Right back: Towell
Strong midfielder: Palsson
Creative: Vaz Te
Big guy upfront: Sodje

Given this he will do the same in the summer and we will be better still...

Hold on, Cregg, McBride and Miller were required because we had a midfield of the likes of Chisholm and Keenan up to then. Cregg didn't work out, mainly because Miller then arrived, but Miller and McBride were key to a great run.

As mentioned further down Hart was needed as we had DVZ before and Wotherspoon wasn't really a right back.

Stack improved the keeper position, Stokes improved the striking position.

Dickoh and Stephens were identified to help with the height and muscle at the back.

So yes, Calderwood has done fine with the signings he has made so far but it's not correct to say he is alone in that in recent times and we still need to see how well they do over time.

Even De Graaf, Trakys and Duffy were actually the right type of players for gaps we had but evidently didn't work out.

Hibs90
07-04-2011, 12:26 PM
I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

CallumLaidlaw
07-04-2011, 12:32 PM
Under Hughes, we needed a right-back. Yes he got Hart, but I dont remember Hart ever having a decent game. CC brought in Towell, who apart from a couple of silly mistakes (which you can forgive a youngster) he has been solid and likes to go forward.

We needed a left back. Hughes loaned out Booth, and loaned in Grounds, who had maybe 1 decent game.

We need a tough presence in midfield. Hughes brought in Cregg & McBride. CC brought in Palsson & Scott. The 2nd two are literally in a different league!!

We needed a strong man upfront. Hughes brought in a very unfit Trakys. CC brought in an extremely fit and ready to go Sodje.

I have 100% faith in CC

Andy74
07-04-2011, 12:32 PM
I dont think we can say it is the same as with Yogi or that things have not improved. Since the January window we have been a much better team, and unlike the run under Yogi I dont think there are any games I would say we definatly got a result that we did not deserve, if anything maybe the opposite when you look at games like Sunday.

.

I think that is being a little bit daft.

Under Hughes, to begin with, we were challenging for second place up until February. That was done by getting results against teams in all parts of the league.

We had one of the best defensive records up until the turn of the year, for decades, and we had Stokes and Riordan amongst the top scorers in the SPL.

So, things were going just fine, it's just not credible to say that wasn't deserved or that the run we have just produced betters it in any way. We've hardly been in sparkling, dominant and attacking form.

Yes, things went down from there but really, the arguments about that part of it would be a bit more credible without all the writing off the early results part.

patlowe
07-04-2011, 12:36 PM
I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

I have to bite on this one and respond to all your points:

We dominated most of the second half on Sunday because they got a man sent off at the end of an abject first half. I'm not criticising CC here, just stating how I felt the game went.

I understand that it's a work in progress and I (unlike some in recent months) am willing to give him as long as he needs, but that is what all managers say at all times so I'm not going to expect wonders as a result of that statement.

I'm not saying I wouldn't take scrappy wins if it meant relative success, I'm just asking whether that is what we should come to expect.

We are not Brazil or Barcelona but I have seen hibs completely overrun by just about every team in this league at some point over the last 3/4 years and I'd quite like to see us do the same at some stage.

Andy74
07-04-2011, 12:49 PM
I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

I suspect, that if that was a John Hughes side in the exact same circumstances the chat would be that were over-run for most of the first half, defended woefully, were lightweight in midfield and were very lucky, through bad finishing from Hearts, and some luck, not be two or three down.

That after we were a man up we were tippy tappy, slow, lacked ideas, pace or ingenuity and that the huddy he'd signed up front had a mare and didn't win a header all day.

And that having scored we had the usual calamity at the back and lacked the desire, experince or ability to defend a simple ball in the box.

That would have been the chat, without doubt, eh?

Keith_M
07-04-2011, 01:41 PM
To be fair to the OP, he's perfectly entitled to raise his concerns. I'm not of the opionion that it's ever OK to go to Celtc Park and be happy that at least we weren't beaten by 6 or 7 goals.

CCs first job was to get us out of the relegation zone, which he's done. However, we need to move on from there. That will take time and the only thing we can do is wait and see. There are no guarantees that CC will take Hibs to the next level, but it's a bit early to say the team have fallen apart. I really hope to see yet more new players appear over the summer and a stronger squad developed.

Onward and upwards.

dangermouse
07-04-2011, 01:48 PM
I seen Calderwoods team dominate an Edinburgh Derby on Sunday. FFS, he's also himself said its a continuing work in progress. Hibs fans were warned that scrappy wins are what he does. We are not Brazil. We are not Barcelona. Get over it and get used to it.

Rome was not built in a day. I doubt even the "Special One" could get us from relegation contenders to top of the league (well 3rd) challengers in the short space of time CC has been in charge.

He has turned the team around of that there is no doubt but the real challenge will be to further improve what we have at present and of what I've seen so far I have more faith in CC to do so than in Hughes.

Kato
07-04-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

You're missing out on the big difference.

Hughes is a balloon.

Calderwood isn't.

jdships
07-04-2011, 02:42 PM
Surely the bottom line here is "WORK IN PROGRESS "
For pity's sake let's give CC a chance to show us what he is made of

:rolleyes::confused:

Sodje_18
07-04-2011, 02:52 PM
FFS the man clearly knows what he's doing, he still has the same dross he inherited, let him get more of his own players in then you'll see more change for the better. You can't doubt him every time things don't go his way :confused:

bighairyfaeleith
07-04-2011, 03:01 PM
SACK HIM!!!!!:grr:

sambajustice
07-04-2011, 03:11 PM
I would say that History is repeating itself in that Hughes was like Duff Jim, while Calderwood has come in and brought in some steady players a la McLeish! Mind McLeish had a very dodgy First Division start before we got on the straight and narrow. We were toiling right up til about November time! Calderwood has steadied the ship and hopefully we can progress next season.

if Hughes was still here I have no doubt we'd be looking at serious relegation scrap with Hamilton. Its a position a team like Hibs should never be in but that b'loon managed to drag us down.

I think we're over the worst of it!

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 03:16 PM
How longs he been in the job now? As soon as the unbeaten run ends people begin to doubt him...AGAIN
Still has the same ***** players he had at the start except a few of his own... surely needs another transfer window? Personally i dont care if hibs dont play with 'flair' if they get results. I'd imagine he does indeed have a long term plan

I think he will aim to have Hibs like a top performing Championship side, which to some may seem lacking ambition, however if we could consistently perform to that level, I would argue that that would be good enough to make us consistently compete at the top of the SPL

I also like the way he goes about his business in a very professional manner, compare CC to the antics of the Hearts bench, or indeed to Yogi and Mixu.

I reckon I'd like to see him at ER for a few years.

--------
07-04-2011, 03:16 PM
I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?



There IS no doubt we've got better against the teams in the lower half of the League - if they're 'dross', then so are we, realistically - but I do think we've shown clear signs of being better able to hold the ball and dictate play than we did over the previous 2 years at least.

I wouldn't say we lack any sort of attacking flair - we haven't been taking our chances, sure, but I would say that was more to do with the fact that Derek's been off the boil and we're carrying three forwards of rather limited capacity (to say the least) in Trakys, Duffy, and Nish, which severely limits CC's options up front.

The main thing after the New Year was to bring in players immediately who could keep us in the SPL. CC did this. We're not going down, and we're looking a lot more competitive and aggressive in defence and midfield. The next task is to plug a few more of the gaps in defence and up front and push for a top-6 finish and maybe even a Cup run or two.

I'm sure CC will be releasing a fair number of the present squad, and signing replacements for them. Palsson, Scott, Thornhill and Sodje all look more than useful; I hope we sign Vaz Te in the summer, and I'd like to see Richie Towell stay on, though I rather think he'll be back at Parkhead in July. We've yet to see what Divis can do; Stack should be fit by the end of the season and I hope he stays on too - with Brown that would make a useful trio of keepers. Of course, if CC spots a better one in the meantime....

But of course, CC may just have decided to spite us all by building a completely mediocre team that has just enough ability to stay in the SPL without ever challenging for anything other than an occasional top-6 finish.

[I would say we were actually a bit unlucky on Sunday. As for last night, I would say that if nothing else it shows that the team isn't anything more than a work in progress right now, and that we urgently need to sign a right-back all of our very own before the new season opens. And our back four needs to learn to push up the park a bit more - we were defending on a dreadfully deep line too often in the first half IMO.]

Beefster
07-04-2011, 03:31 PM
I suspect, that if that was a John Hughes side in the exact same circumstances the chat would be that were over-run for most of the first half, defended woefully, were lightweight in midfield and were very lucky, through bad finishing from Hearts, and some luck, not be two or three down.

That after we were a man up we were tippy tappy, slow, lacked ideas, pace or ingenuity and that the huddy he'd signed up front had a mare and didn't win a header all day.

And that having scored we had the usual calamity at the back and lacked the desire, experince or ability to defend a simple ball in the box.

That would have been the chat, without doubt, eh?

That might have been the chat but only after Hughes had broken records for runs without wins and we had been piss-poor for months. It certainly wouldn't have been the chat if Hughes had had us currently unbeaten in 7 games (or since January) at the time of the game.

I'm all for a bit of revisionism-spotting but let's not pretend that folk were always ultra-critical of Hughes. A manager doing well gets the benefit of the doubt, a manager having a mare doesn't.

patlowe
07-04-2011, 03:37 PM
There IS no doubt we've got better against the teams in the lower half of the League - if they're 'dross', then so are we, realistically - but I do think we've shown clear signs of being better able to hold the ball and dictate play than we did over the previous 2 years at least.

I wouldn't say we lack any sort of attacking flair - we haven't been taking our chances, sure, but I would say that was more to do with the fact that Derek's been off the boil and we're carrying three forwards of rather limited capacity (to say the least) in Trakys, Duffy, and Nish, which severely limits CC's options up front.

The main thing after the New Year was to bring in players immediately who could keep us in the SPL. CC did this. We're not going down, and we're looking a lot more competitive and aggressive in defence and midfield. The next task is to plug a few more of the gaps in defence and up front and push for a top-6 finish and maybe even a Cup run or two.

I'm sure CC will be releasing a fair number of the present squad, and signing replacements for them. Palsson, Scott, Thornhill and Sodje all look more than useful; I hope we sign Vaz Te in the summer, and I'd like to see Richie Towell stay on, though I rather think he'll be back at Parkhead in July. We've yet to see what Divis can do; Stack should be fit by the end of the season and I hope he stays on too - with Brown that would make a useful trio of keepers. Of course, if CC spots a better one in the meantime....

But of course, CC may just have decided to spite us all by building a completely mediocre team that has just enough ability to stay in the SPL without ever challenging for anything other than an occasional top-6 finish.

[I would say we were actually a bit unlucky on Sunday. As for last night, I would say that if nothing else it shows that the team isn't anything more than a work in progress right now, and that we urgently need to sign a right-back all of our very own before the new season opens. And our back four needs to learn to push up the park a bit more - we were defending on a dreadfully deep line too often in the first half IMO.]

:agree: One of only a small number on this thread that has answered the question with reason. I have no vendetta against Calderwood!

As I've said earlier, I like the athleticism and aggression of Palsson. However, I have concerns regarding the other new signings but as you say they were brought in to do a job until the summer. I'm interested to see CC's ability to bring in players with more of an emphasis on ball retention, disciplined technical ability and pace (if they are available on our budget) as while I'm delighted with the stability achieved in recent months, I'm desperate to see entertaining football at ER again in the long term.

Arch Stanton
07-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Having had 3 transfer windows Hughes went into a new season getting results (not convincing results but with the likes of Stokes in your team who needs to be convincing) - then a downward spiral started.

CC on the other hand started off in mid-season with a team heading towards relegation and after one transfer window got us unto a winning streak with a run of convincing performances.

Now, I must tell you, I'm struggling to see the historic parallels here.

PaulSmith
07-04-2011, 03:56 PM
I did think that folk were getting a little carried away at beating St Mirren twice, Hamilton and the last 3 games (St Johnstone away, Hearts home and Celtic away) were more of a test in regards to see if we have got any better and I'm still unconvinced to be honest.

I don't believe that the current board will stretch the playing budget any more until the SPL set up is voted on and actually believe that it will still be shrunk with CC asked to use a reduced first team pool supplemented by untried younger players.

Beefster
07-04-2011, 04:01 PM
I don't believe that the current board will stretch the playing budget any more until the SPL set up is voted on and actually believe that it will still be shrunk with CC asked to use a reduced first team pool supplemented by untried younger players.

Surely that will depend entirely in how ST sales go?

scottp1875
07-04-2011, 04:40 PM
I'm beginning to wonder whether the current side is an iteration of the Hughes team that went on a decent run in the early part of last season but remained utterly unconvincing and just as likely to suffer a disastrous turnaround. There's no doubt we've got better recently against the league's dross but I've yet to see Calderwood's team dominate a match (though you could argue the same for Yogi and Mixu) and we lack any sort of attacking flair. Should I get used to 5th-10th place finishes and scrappy wins or does CC have a long-term plan for improvement?

a wee bit harsh,we lose away to the probable champions and its all doom and gloom. we won the 2nd half so they at least put a bit of a fight, yogis team would have probably lost by 5 or 6 in similar circumstances.

simple fact is weve improved since bringing in CC's own players and the summer will be the time when he genuinely has his own team. judge him them

PeeJay
07-04-2011, 05:10 PM
a wee bit harsh,we lose away to the probable champions and its all doom and gloom. we won the 2nd half so they at least put a bit of a fight, yogis team would have probably lost by 5 or 6 in similar circumstances.

simple fact is weve improved since bringing in CC's own players and the summer will be the time when he genuinely has his own team. judge him them

Never mind Celtic, the lack of pace, aptitude, creativity and lack of bite in the final third were fairly clear to see in the game against Bohemians, which although "only a friendly", was arranged to get us back up to speed for the league games.

As to a "simple fact", surely a bottom six place is not actually an improvement on 4th and a European spot? - We may well go on to improve one day, but we have actually gone backwards, as far as I can see. In fact if we don't make third next season we still don't have an improvement - neither is reaching fourth (measured against "useless" Yogi that is!).

Arch Stanton
07-04-2011, 05:37 PM
Never mind Celtic, the lack of pace, aptitude, creativity and lack of bite in the final third were fairly clear to see in the game against Bohemians, which although "only a friendly", was arranged to get us back up to speed for the league games.

As to a "simple fact", surely a bottom six place is not actually an improvement on 4th and a European spot? - We may well go on to improve one day, but we have actually gone backwards, as far as I can see. In fact if we don't make third next season we still don't have an improvement - neither is reaching fourth (measured against "useless" Yogi that is!).

Not quite. I reckon a fair like for like comparison would have us finishing 4th, then a year at the bottom. and then a year in Div 1.

By the way, your analysis of the Bohs game is mince - our play was pretty decent in the first half and I doubt there was more than a couple of first team players on the field for the 2nd half.

Cropley10
07-04-2011, 05:53 PM
Fair point but I'd argue that some of Yogi's signings were similarly targeted. Hart appeared a good signing for RB which was a problem area (though it's not quite worked out!) and McBride/Miller were definitely required through the middle. As I say, the good results Yogi achieved early on gave the impression that he had the midas touch in terms of signings and results but the reality was that we scraped a few results before being found out.

As for CC's signings, I'm 100% giving them all the benefit of the doubt but I'm pretty unconvinced by Scott, Thornhill and Sodje. Pallson has the athleticism and potential to go far but I'd question his technical ability up to this point. Vaz Te I have high hopes for but he has "Benji" written all over him (not necessarily a bad thing!). Towell is another with potential and I'd like to see him stay.

Hart!? - There's no way anyone could've watched Hart last April or May and said 'aye, he's a player', same with De Graaf. Yogi like to pretend he knew what he was doing, but truth is Miller and Stokes apart, he's signed no-one who's worth a bolt. Add that to the fact that we've needed a LB since Murph left and rather than blood Booth, as he did 'Spoony - he sent him out on loan.

Scott is an improvement on any midfielder signed by Yogi bar Miller. Sodje wont be here long but doesn't fall over like Nish does. As for Vaz Te - my god, honestly, who exactly do we expect to be signing?:confused: He's talented, can beat a man, cross, shoot, head, link, set-up etc. Sure he's had issues, if he didn't he wouldn't be here FFS.

Love the way you question Pallson 'technical ability' - good enough for Liverpool but not for Hibs.

CallumLaidlaw
07-04-2011, 05:57 PM
Never mind Celtic, the lack of pace, aptitude, creativity and lack of bite in the final third were fairly clear to see in the game against Bohemians, which although "only a friendly", was arranged to get us back up to speed for the league games.

As to a "simple fact", surely a bottom six place is not actually an improvement on 4th and a European spot? - We may well go on to improve one day, but we have actually gone backwards, as far as I can see. In fact if we don't make third next season we still don't have an improvement - neither is reaching fourth (measured against "useless" Yogi that is!).

Youre comparing where we are now to how we finished last season tho. Try comparing us now to how we were when Hughes left.

ancient hibee
07-04-2011, 06:04 PM
I think we've beaten Celtic 6 times in the last 40 games.Last nights result has absolutely no bearing on how good the new manager is going to be in developing his own team.

I DO prefer listening to what he has to say compared to Hughes.

DH1875
07-04-2011, 06:18 PM
I did think that folk were getting a little carried away at beating St Mirren twice, Hamilton and the last 3 games (St Johnstone away, Hearts home and Celtic away) were more of a test in regards to see if we have got any better and I'm still unconvinced to be honest.

I don't believe that the current board will stretch the playing budget any more until the SPL set up is voted on and actually believe that it will still be shrunk with CC asked to use a reduced first team pool supplemented by untried younger players.


While I kinda agree with you I hope your wrong.
We are in desperate need of some width and pace in the team.

CallumLaidlaw
07-04-2011, 07:14 PM
I think we've beaten Celtic 6 times in the last 40 games.Last nights result has absolutely no bearing on how good the new manager is going to be in developing his own team.

I DO prefer listening to what he has to say compared to Hughes.

Without a doubt. At least its not the same old excuses week in week out. Calderwood was the first one last night to say the performance wasnt good enough.

IWasThere2016
07-04-2011, 07:56 PM
I suspect, that if that was a John Hughes side in the exact same circumstances the chat would be that were over-run for most of the first half, defended woefully, were lightweight in midfield and were very lucky, through bad finishing from Hearts, and some luck, not be two or three down.

That after we were a man up we were tippy tappy, slow, lacked ideas, pace or ingenuity and that the huddy he'd signed up front had a mare and didn't win a header all day.

And that having scored we had the usual calamity at the back and lacked the desire, experince or ability to defend a simple ball in the box.

That would have been the chat, without doubt, eh?

:rolleyes:


That might have been the chat but only after Hughes had broken records for runs without wins and we had been piss-poor for months. It certainly wouldn't have been the chat if Hughes had had us currently unbeaten in 7 games (or since January) at the time of the game.

I'm all for a bit of revisionism-spotting but let's not pretend that folk were always ultra-critical of Hughes. A manager doing well gets the benefit of the doubt, a manager having a mare doesn't.

:agree:


I think we've beaten Celtic 6 times in the last 40 games.Last nights result has absolutely no bearing on how good the new manager is going to be in developing his own team.

I DO prefer listening to what he has to say compared to Hughes.

:top marks

jacomo
07-04-2011, 09:30 PM
I suspect, that if that was a John Hughes side in the exact same circumstances the chat would be that were over-run for most of the first half, defended woefully, were lightweight in midfield and were very lucky, through bad finishing from Hearts, and some luck, not be two or three down.

That after we were a man up we were tippy tappy, slow, lacked ideas, pace or ingenuity and that the huddy he'd signed up front had a mare and didn't win a header all day.

And that having scored we had the usual calamity at the back and lacked the desire, experince or ability to defend a simple ball in the box.

That would have been the chat, without doubt, eh?

You seem to be implying that Hughes wasn't given a fair chance by the Hibs support. Is that really what you mean?

To my mind, what undid him was a catastrophic run of results, as bad as anyone can remember, allied to increasingly incomprehensible comments from the man himself.

brydekirk
07-04-2011, 09:35 PM
:agree:
How longs he been in the job now? As soon as the unbeaten run ends people begin to doubt him...AGAIN
Still has the same ***** players he had at the start except a few of his own... surely needs another transfer window? Personally i dont care if hibs dont play with 'flair' if they get results. I'd imagine he does indeed have a long term plan

brydekirk
07-04-2011, 09:38 PM
:agree:
Youre comparing where we are now to how we finished last season tho. Try comparing us now to how we were when Hughes left.

HibeeSince85
07-04-2011, 09:50 PM
Madness, 1 defeat and comparing Calderwood to Hughes!

Complete faith in the man, his signings are looking good too, Vaz Te looks very good, might have a player here.

Man management aswell looks very good.

The start of his time with us I can remember him getting stick for no animation, dour at games, the man was taking stock of the shambles we were, now look, his stamps on this team now and you seen how he was against they radges.

I guarantee you Hibs will be quite decent to follow next season.

IberianHibernian
07-04-2011, 10:06 PM
Every time we change manager we expect new man to get his own players in . Usually the new ones are no better than what we had before . With CC I think it`s still too soon to say new signings are going to be a success - the unbeaten run and introduction of new players ( even if no better than players they replaced ) means players have been more confident and playing in bottom six we should get some good results before summer to further boost confidence . By Christmas we should know if recent signings have been good ones but as always it`s a question of expectations - I suspect next season will see us stuck between 4th and 7th , never in relegation trouble but hardly challenging for a place at top either . Cup results and style of play will determine if midtable is considered acceptable .

Tyler Durden
07-04-2011, 10:40 PM
I don't agree with the OP at all but playing devil's advocate, also have to take issue with several people claiming that Calderwood's job was to save us from a relegation scrap. Eh no.

He got the job in October (?) not January. And while Yogi definitely left him with a poor squad lacking quality and cover in key areas, we only got into serious relegation problems, after Calderwood's Hibs won 2 out of 13 or 14.

When he came in I was aiming for 6th place, perhaps unrealistically and despite our recent good run, we've got a long way to go as he'd be the first to admit.

Thankfully the rest of the SPL is also gash, so let's build a solid team that can defend next year and we'll be flying on dour 1-0 wins!

patlowe
08-04-2011, 06:16 AM
Hart!? - There's no way anyone could've watched Hart last April or May and said 'aye, he's a player', same with De Graaf. Yogi like to pretend he knew what he was doing, but truth is Miller and Stokes apart, he's signed no-one who's worth a bolt. Add that to the fact that we've needed a LB since Murph left and rather than blood Booth, as he did 'Spoony - he sent him out on loan.

Scott is an improvement on any midfielder signed by Yogi bar Miller. Sodje wont be here long but doesn't fall over like Nish does. As for Vaz Te - my god, honestly, who exactly do we expect to be signing?:confused: He's talented, can beat a man, cross, shoot, head, link, set-up etc. Sure he's had issues, if he didn't he wouldn't be here FFS.

Love the way you question Pallson 'technical ability' - good enough for Liverpool but not for Hibs.

I was replying to the suggestion that Hughes didn't sign players based on need when I reckon that most people welcomed the signing of Hart when announced. He's turned out to be rank, fair doos.

On Palsson, it's just an observation, I don't think his passing or shooting have been anything to write home about thus far. Playing for Liverpool and being shunted off to an SPL team is no guarantee of quality BTW. John Rankin played for Man Utd FFS.



Madness, 1 defeat and comparing Calderwood to Hughes!

Complete faith in the man, his signings are looking good too, Vaz Te looks very good, might have a player here.

Man management aswell looks very good.

The start of his time with us I can remember him getting stick for no animation, dour at games, the man was taking stock of the shambles we were, now look, his stamps on this team now and you seen how he was against they radges.

I guarantee you Hibs will be quite decent to follow next season.

This has nothing to do with last night's defeat, if anything it has more relevance to our wins and performances pre-St Johnstone. My point is that the SPL is so tight that a winning streak of close games against the also-rans, while welcome, should not be seen as a guarantee that CC is going to take hibs where we want them to go. I used Hughes' run as an example to warn of this. However, I have a certain amount of faith in CC, I'm just concerned that there has been little improvement in the style of football we play (over 3 years BTW, not just under CC) and I wonder whether Calderwood intends to implement this pragmatic style permanently or temporarily.

The Falcon
08-04-2011, 07:14 AM
As opposed to Yogi winning 1 game up till he left? Calderwood was brought in in October to give him time to assess the squad if required and taking measured steps in January if required. He did that.

Not knocking Yogi as I really wanted him to do well but it just didnt work out.


I don't agree with the OP at all but playing devil's advocate, also have to take issue with several people claiming that Calderwood's job was to save us from a relegation scrap. Eh no.

He got the job in October (?) not January. And while Yogi definitely left him with a poor squad lacking quality and cover in key areas, we only got into serious relegation problems, after Calderwood's Hibs won 2 out of 13 or 14.

When he came in I was aiming for 6th place, perhaps unrealistically and despite our recent good run, we've got a long way to go as he'd be the first to admit.

Thankfully the rest of the SPL is also gash, so let's build a solid team that can defend next year and we'll be flying on dour 1-0 wins!

PeeJay
08-04-2011, 09:02 AM
Not quite. I reckon a fair like for like comparison would have us finishing 4th, then a year at the bottom. and then a year in Div 1.

By the way, your analysis of the Bohs game is mince - our play was pretty decent in the first half and I doubt there was more than a couple of first team players on the field for the 2nd half.

My comparison was based on facts: your's isn't for some reason?
"Pretty decent" - the performance against Bohemians was poor overall when one considers it was a game meant to get us up to speed for competitive games, I don't see any other way of appraising this game: it was a wasted opportunity. Looked to me like the Hibs team couldn't be bothered, which is part of the reason we are now in the bottom six.
Next season will be interesting though...

smurf
08-04-2011, 09:15 AM
We are STILL a long long way from being a top six side let alone challenging the Yams for third.

A LOT of work required in the summer.

Should the board back CC he will do it IMHO.

Dirkster23
08-04-2011, 09:25 AM
We are STILL a long long way from being a top six side let alone challenging the Yams for third.

A LOT of work required in the summer.

Should the board back CC he will do it IMHO.

:agree:

I'm confident we'll see a much better team next season when CC's had the summer to address our weaknesses.

Stevie Reid
08-04-2011, 09:31 AM
This has nothing to do with last night's defeat, if anything it has more relevance to our wins and performances pre-St Johnstone. My point is that the SPL is so tight that a winning streak of close games against the also-rans, while welcome, should not be seen as a guarantee that CC is going to take hibs where we want them to go. I used Hughes' run as an example to warn of this. However, I have a certain amount of faith in CC, I'm just concerned that there has been little improvement in the style of football we play (over 3 years BTW, not just under CC) and I wonder whether Calderwood intends to implement this pragmatic style permanently or temporarily.

I share your concerns to a degree also, I am fully behind CC (have my ST again for next season) and am looking forward to seeing who he can bring in in what will be a huge overhaul of the playing squad during the summer - however, I feel that people are going overboard by predicting great things for next season (and I very much hope I'm wrong, obviously).

The upturn since January and the new signings has been great, but as has been pointed out we had a favourable run of fixtures (which still had to be won) and in the most demnding matches (Dundee Utd, St. Johstone, Hearts and Celtic), we took 2 points. However, given how desperate things looked in January, I am delighted that the rest of the season is now essentially meaningless.

It is only natural to compare new managers to old ones and you're correct to highlight how fine the line was between 6 months of good results and 3 months of freefall under Yogi. I also think that you may well be correct in your assertion that any succes we have will be built on solid, unspectacular displays based around being hard to beat, and edging victories.

Whilst this would undoubtedly be a huge improvement from where we were, and steady improvement should certainly not be dismissed, I fear that that may not be enough for many in our support. When Mixu came in after JC, a great run of results took us into the top 6 several weeks before the split, then after a disappointing final 5 games we finished the season on a downer - the next season we were never real European challengers, but certainly never even close to relegation candidates, and Mixu was hounded out.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't upset when Mixu left and I'm not going to pretend that the football wasn't largely of the eye bleeding type - but we were anything but a pushover and enjoyed some good victories over Celtic and Hearts. I do believe that CC will have us a slightly more attractive proposition than that, but if not, would the majority accept a season like Mixu's last next season? Given how quickly Hibs managers can go from hero to zero, I hope that CC is afforded some patience next season - and this is coming from someone who raised real concerns about him earlier this season.