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Irish Dave
05-04-2011, 08:18 AM
http://www.scotsman.com/news/Bigotry-39not-unique-to-the.6746071.jp?articlepage=1

Unacceptable behaviour: yes. Bigoted no , not on Hibs behalf, racist maybe. 3 arrests.

Beefster
05-04-2011, 08:20 AM
http://www.scotsman.com/news/Bigotry-39not-unique-to-the.6746071.jp?articlepage=1

Unacceptable behaviour: yes. Bigoted no , not on Hibs behalf, racist maybe. 3 arrests.

Racism is bigotry.

marinello59
05-04-2011, 08:21 AM
Racism is bigotry.

Exactly. And the songs are defended by those who sing them in exactly the same way. Sometimes we have to see ourselves as others see us no matter how uncomfortable that makes us feel.

CropleyWasGod
05-04-2011, 08:22 AM
http://www.scotsman.com/news/Bigotry-39not-unique-to-the.6746071.jp?articlepage=1

Unacceptable behaviour: yes. Bigoted no , not on Hibs behalf, racist maybe. 3 arrests.

If the story about the Skacel chants is true, then yes it is bigotry.

marinello59
05-04-2011, 08:27 AM
http://www.scotsman.com/news/Bigotry-39not-unique-to-the.6746071.jp?articlepage=1

Unacceptable behaviour: yes. Bigoted no , not on Hibs behalf, racist maybe. 3 arrests.

Even if racism wasn't bigotry it's not the best defense to use against the accusation is it. How very dare you sir, we're not bigots, we're racist.

steakbake
05-04-2011, 08:29 AM
I'm glad that a light is getting shown on this. I like a passionate atmosphere at ER but sometimes, people forget that it's just a football match.

H18sry
05-04-2011, 08:32 AM
A LEADING academic has warned Scotland's football authorities that measures to tackle bigotry should not just focus on the Old Firm, after describing the as "completely unacceptable" the behaviour of fans at the Edinburgh derby at the weekend.
Dr John Kelly, an expert in sport and sectarianism at Edinburgh University, said he could clearly hear the singing of offensive chants by both Hibs and Hearts supporters during the match at Easter Road.

He also said he was shocked to witness Hibs supporters close to where he was sitting hurling missiles - including a slice of pizza and a large cup of soft drink - from their seats towards the Easter Road pitch, and at the sight of dozens of Hearts fans leaping over barriers to goad their rivals after snatching a late equaliser.

The Scotsman can reveal 20 fans were thrown out of the stadium for "unruly behaviour" by police or stewards, with a further three arrested for alleged drunkenness and encroaching on to the pitch.

These figures compared to six arrests at the recent Old Firm cup final and 34 at the previous Celtic-Rangers encounter at Parkhead that triggered a Scottish Government investigation into bigotry and violence problems in the game.

The Edinburgh derby disorder flared just days after Richie Towell, on loan at Hibs from Celtic, said he had met more hostility at Tynecastle than at Ibrox as an Irish Catholic.

Hibs last night revealed the club had supplied Lothian and Borders Police with a dossier of CCTV footage of all areas of the club following the disorder, and warned any fans either who were arrested or ejected from the game would be facing a ban from Easter Road.

The force said it would "fully investigate" any complaints received over sectarian, racist, or other offensive chanting.

The behaviour of Scottish football fans has been in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons over the last month since senior police officers called for Old Firm matches to be played behind closed doors due to the levels of violence that surround the fixture.

Strathclyde Police asked the Scottish Government to convene a high-profile summit just days later after 187 offences were reported in the force area in the wake of the next Old Firm game, which saw Rangers assistant manager Ally McCoist and Celtic coach Neil Lennon confront each other following the final whistle.

A taskforce involving the police and football authorities is drawing up a new code of conduct which will tackle the issue of offensive chants and possible sanctions for clubs.

Writing in The Scotsman today, Dr Kelly, who claims to have no affiliation with either Hibs or Hearts, said: "The latest Hibs-Hearts derby at Easter Road exposed the bigoted, intolerant and inflammatory behaviour of some Edinburgh fans that seems to have escaped scrutiny from the police and media alike.

"Tackling ethno-religious bigotry requires all guilty parties are held culpable if genuine solutions are to be found."

He told The Scotsman: "It was certainly not two or three supporters. I am talking hundreds who were all around me, who were singing 'Rudi Skacel's a f***ing refugee'. And there were thousands of Hearts supporters singing about being 'up to their knees in Fenian blood'.

"In many ways there was a great atmosphere, but there is no doubt these chants are bigoted and offensive. The conduct of a lot of supporters was completely unacceptable.

"I watched around 20 missiles being thrown from the Hibs end when a Hearts player went to take a corner, including a slice of pizza and a full cup of soft drink.

"When Hearts equalised, around 30 of their supporters, tried to encroach onto the sidelines and some got on to the pitch."




The highlighted area's

He says he has no support for Hibs so why was he sitting in the Hibs end how did he get a ticket? :confused:

Sergey
05-04-2011, 08:37 AM
On a slightly separate matter; did Hertz get pulled-up earlier this season for lobbing potatoes at Stokes or was that simply ignored (or not reported by the referee)?

hibsbollah
05-04-2011, 08:37 AM
Its true. Uncomfortable reading but true. Just because we're not as bad as the Old firm doesnt mean theres not improvement to be made.

The fenian blood chant from Hearts fans on Sunday was just as clearly audible and undeniable as when Rangers are at ER. And i cant remember thinking that before. Its definitely getting worse with them...

marinello59
05-04-2011, 08:39 AM
The highlighted area's

He says he has no support for Hibs so why was he sitting in the Hibs end how did he get a ticket? :confused:

Does that matter? Hopefully we don't go down the Old Firm route of shooting the messenger.

Part/Time Supporter
05-04-2011, 08:48 AM
A LEADING academic has warned Scotland's football authorities that measures to tackle bigotry should not just focus on the Old Firm, after describing the as "completely unacceptable" the behaviour of fans at the Edinburgh derby at the weekend.

Dr John Kelly, an expert in sport and sectarianism at Edinburgh University, said he could clearly hear the singing of offensive chants by both Hibs and Hearts supporters during the match at Easter Road.

He also said he was shocked to witness Hibs supporters close to where he was sitting hurling missiles - including a slice of pizza and a large cup of soft drink - from their seats towards the Easter Road pitch, and at the sight of dozens of Hearts fans leaping over barriers to goad their rivals after snatching a late equaliser.
....

"I watched around 20 missiles being thrown from the Hibs end when a Hearts player went to take a corner, including a slice of pizza and a full cup of soft drink.

"When Hearts equalised, around 30 of their supporters, tried to encroach onto the sidelines and some got on to the pitch."
....

He says he has no support for Hibs so why was he sitting in the Hibs end how did he get a ticket? :confused:

I think he attended the game in order to keep up to date in his field of study.

I also think the real problems with the behaviour on Sunday had naff all to do with any religious / sectarian aspect, it was plain old bampottery (ie the Hibbies that chucked any items to hand and the Jambos that decided to set up base camp in the Hibs penalty box).

H18sry
05-04-2011, 08:49 AM
Does that matter? Hopefully we don't go down the Old Firm route of shooting the messenger.

Just asking a valid question, I do not disagree with what he is saying,but to get a ticket for the Hibs end you have to be on the data base, he is either a liar or an interloper.:agree:

Part/Time Supporter
05-04-2011, 08:52 AM
Just asking a valid question, I do not disagree with what he is saying,but to get a ticket for the Hibs end you have to be on the data base, he is either a liar or an interloper.:agree:

Like I say, he's probably attended a number of games at various grounds to further his research. It's not exactly difficult to get and stay on the Hibs database (ie buy a ticket for A.N. Other game and then behave yourself).

JimBHibees
05-04-2011, 08:59 AM
Just asking a valid question, I do not disagree with what he is saying,but to get a ticket for the Hibs end you have to be on the data base, he is either a liar or an interloper.:agree:

Does it matter what he says is completely spot on? No doubt some Hibee he knows got it for him.

CropleyWasGod
05-04-2011, 09:03 AM
Just asking a valid question, I do not disagree with what he is saying,but to get a ticket for the Hibs end you have to be on the data base, he is either a liar or an interloper.:agree:

..or someone who is on the database at ER and Tynie.

Irish Dave
05-04-2011, 09:07 AM
the article is incorrect . it labels the actions of the hibs support as bigoted (which in the scottish football context is seen as intolerance of catholics or protestants) . thats what annoyed me. I agree there were unacceptable elements on Sunday, but ones common to many derbies in England, for example. The article attempted to lump hibs and hearts in with the old firm, and both teams (hibs to a greater extent) have moved well away from that.

I certainly wasn't condoning the skacel chant which is wrong. However, I don't think many people who sing the skacel chant are actually really racist against czechs. The intolerance is of hearts, thats what we need to talk about. and I think the motivation of singing the song is to cause offence to hearts and their followers.

marinello59
05-04-2011, 09:12 AM
the article is incorrect . it labels the actions of the hibs support as bigoted (which in the scottish football context is seen as intolerance of catholics or protestants) . thats what annoyed me. I agree there were unacceptable elements on Sunday, but ones common to many derbies in England, for example. The article attempted to lump hibs and hearts in with the old firm, and both teams (hibs to a greater extent) have moved well away from that.

I certainly wasn't condoning the skacel chant which is wrong. However, I don't think many people who sing the skacel chant are actually really racist against czechs. The intolerance is of hearts, thats what we need to talk about. and I think the motivation of singing the song is to cause offence to hearts and their followers.

Which is exactly how the Hearts fans will defend singing the Billy Boys garbage. And how the Old Firm defend their ditties.

RIP
05-04-2011, 10:23 AM
The Skacel song is a disgrace. It has to go and if it means booting the song starters the hell out of Easter Road then it can't happen soon enough. It's no coincidence that some of these individuals are openly racist and enjoy reinforcing racial stereotypes - "Edinburgh Song", "All East Europeans are refugees", All darkies are hung". Their predictable response of "it's only banter" cannot be allowed to go unchallenged

I'm sure there's plenty Hibbies from an ethnic background who would appreciate the message this action would send out

Liberal Hibby
05-04-2011, 10:32 AM
Its true. Uncomfortable reading but true. Just because we're not as bad as the Old firm doesnt mean theres not improvement to be made.


Three arrests out of 18,000 is actually worse than six out of 52,000.

LancashireHibby
05-04-2011, 10:34 AM
I get the impression that the media have been looking desperately for an "it's not just the Old Firm" line and, well, we didn't have to make them delve too deeply.

Kato
05-04-2011, 10:45 AM
Dr John Kelly, an expert in sport and sectarianism at Edinburgh University,


Can't believe tax-payers money has been spent on this guy becoming an "expert" on this.

Part/Time Supporter
05-04-2011, 10:58 AM
Can't believe tax-payers money has been spent on this guy becoming an "expert" on this.

I can't believe the behaviour that makes the field of study viable.

Phil D. Rolls
05-04-2011, 10:58 AM
http://www.scotsman.com/news/Bigotry-39not-unique-to-the.6746071.jp?articlepage=1

Unacceptable behaviour: yes. Bigoted no , not on Hibs behalf, racist maybe. 3 arrests.

Well, that's OK then.


Does that matter? Hopefully we don't go down the Old Firm route of shooting the messenger.

Having taken much stick for raising the subject of the Skacel song 6 years ago (I think it ended up about six pages), I have to say that some people do not take kindly to any sort of criticism.

The song is out of order, anyone who thinks otherwise, just doesn't think IMO.

Pretty Boy
05-04-2011, 11:11 AM
Simple fact is we can't keep sweeping this kind of crap under the carpet and the sooner we drop the 'OF are worse than us so it's ok' mentality the better.

The Skacel song is embarassing and it's racist, simple as. The Edinburgh song is definitely racist, anyone who says otherwise is just plain stupid.

I was in town on Sunday night and was treated to a group of Hearts fans singing a little ditty that went like this: 'If you cannae do the bouncy you're a taig' apparently they got this idea from Rangers. Unfortunately any attempt to demonise them looks pretty hypocritical when you have morons in your own support singing about refugees, pakis, jews and whatever else.

Words and phrases like fenian *******, taig, paki etc etc just aren't acceptable. This isn't 'PC gone mad' (the most overused and misused phrase in the English language) it's just a fact. The sooner some muppets drag themselves out of the dark ages and realise it's not just banter the better for all concerned IMO.

johnrebus
05-04-2011, 11:14 AM
Strikes me that this guy is probably a fan of either of the Old Firm, like the school bully saying ' aye, but he does it too'.

Half of the familes in Edinburgh have supporters of both Hibs and Hearts within them, how often can this be said of Rangers and Celtic?

I don't like Hearts or their fans because they are ignorant, arrogant and deluded, not because of their bloody religion!

:grr:

Phil D. Rolls
05-04-2011, 11:18 AM
Does that matter? Hopefully we don't go down the Old Firm route of shooting the messenger.

We can fully expect a debate on: why Skacel is not a refugee; why it is no more offensive than singing about Gorgie/Glasgow slums; why fat people deserve just as much protection as immigrants; how the PC brigade are ruining football; and also how someone's best friend is black and he really doesn't mind being called a n*gger.

The majority of these posts will come from people backing up their pals, and will are very likely to be made by people living in areas where 99.5 of the population is white, and 99.4 is the fourth generation of their family to live within half a mile of Fathell, Midlothian/West Lothian/Lanarkshire Cross.

There will also be a few from East Lothian farmers, who say no-one in their local has ever objected to a bit of banter. A Fifer will also post to say that anyone from overseas should be repatriated, and demand the immediate closure of the Forth and Tay road bridges.

Where's my Benzos?

Beefster
05-04-2011, 11:33 AM
Strikes me that this guy is probably a fan of either of the Old Firm, like the school bully saying ' aye, but he does it too'.

Half of the familes in Edinburgh have supporters of both Hibs and Hearts within them, how often can this be said of Rangers and Celtic?

I don't like Hearts or their fans because they are ignorant, arrogant and deluded, not because of their bloody religion!

:grr:

He's an academic. I can guarantee you that he's not saying what he's saying in an attempt to make Rangers or Celtic look better, irrespective of who, if anyone, he actually supports.

He's right too.

Andy74
05-04-2011, 11:43 AM
We can fully expect a debate on: why Skacel is not a refugee; why it is no more offensive than singing about Gorgie/Glasgow slums; why fat people deserve just as much protection as immigrants; how the PC brigade are ruining football; and also how someone's best friend is black and he really doesn't mind being called a n*gger.

The majority of these posts will come from people backing up their pals, and will are very likely to be made by people living in areas where 99.5 of the population is white, and 99.4 is the fourth generation of their family to live within half a mile of Fathell, Midlothian/West Lothian/Lanarkshire Cross.

There will also be a few from East Lothian farmers, who say no-one in their local has ever objected to a bit of banter. A Fifer will also post to say that anyone from overseas should be repatriated, and demand the immediate closure of the Forth and Tay road bridges.

Where's my Benzos?
I don't fit into any of those categories but to me the Skacel song is just slightly poor taste banter. Same as comparing someone to gay, fat, ugly or illegitimate people.

The focus of the song is Skacel, the refugee thing is not what the target of the song is about.

I can see where people get the opposite argument but I think that's giving it a stretch that the song didn't intend.

I do think some sing it now because they do think it is racist though but going back to the origins of the song in Dnipro it wasn't that at all.

You do refer to it and dismiss it earlier but shouting at someone as a fat bassa is probably more hurtful and offensive than this.

--------
05-04-2011, 11:54 AM
I don't fit into any of those categories but to me the Skacel song is just slightly poor taste banter. Same as comparing someone to gay, fat, ugly or illegitimate people.

The focus of the song is Skacel, the refugee thing is not what the target of the song is about.

I can see where people get the opposite argument but I think that's giving it a stretch that the song didn't intend.

I do think some sing it now because they do think it is racist though but going back to the origins of the song in Dnipro it wasn't that at all.

You do refer to it and dismiss it earlier but shouting at someone as a fat bassa is probably more hurtful and offensive than this.


Right.

So it's "slightly poor taste banter" to abuse someone because of his or her sexuality, obesity, personal appearance or parentage.

"Pig-faced poofter ******* whale" is "slightly poor taste banter"?

Does this only apply to non-Hibs footballers and football supporters, or is it OK to do this to anyone on any circumstances?

JimBHibees
05-04-2011, 11:54 AM
Simple fact is we can't keep sweeping this kind of crap under the carpet and the sooner we drop the 'OF are worse than us so it's ok' mentality the better.

The Skacel song is embarassing and it's racist, simple as. The Edinburgh song is definitely racist, anyone who says otherwise is just plain stupid.

I was in town on Sunday night and was treated to a group of Hearts fans singing a little ditty that went like this: 'If you cannae do the bouncy you're a taig' apparently they got this idea from Rangers. Unfortunately any attempt to demonise them looks pretty hypocritical when you have morons in your own support singing about refugees, pakis, jews and whatever else.

Words and phrases like fenian *******, taig, paki etc etc just aren't acceptable. This isn't 'PC gone mad' (the most overused and misused phrase in the English language) it's just a fact. The sooner some muppets drag themselves out of the dark ages and realise it's not just banter the better for all concerned IMO.

Good post agree completely.

MCameron
05-04-2011, 11:55 AM
I don't like Hearts or their fans because they are ignorant, arrogant and deluded, not because of their bloody religion!

:grr:

Do you truly believe that? They support their team and wear those rose-tinted glasses that those who support our team do too. Do we really 'hate' people from our own city who just happen to follow a different team? I think it's a sad day if true hate is what football has come to. Perhaps getting a perspective on the things that really matter and the problems faced by millions in life might help put football into perspective - it's a game at the end of the day.

On the subject of the skacel song I agree that there is no place for this (not only within football but in society). Anyone who thinks it's a bit of a laugh should think about how they would feel if they were living in another country earning a living and people were chanting that they were a refugee while thousands of others (including kids) were watching. Certainly not a clip Visit Scotland is likely to use in it's adverts!

The excuse that it's to wind up the hearts fans is quite simply pathetic and the defence that 'Am no a racist / bigot / homophobe' just doesn't wash. They may think they're none of these but they are a) kidding themselves on, b) are lying and know they are one or c) just don't have the mental capacity to understand what racism / homophobia or bigotry actually are.

It's not about how the chant sounds or what it means to you - it's all about how it makes the recipient or others feel.

That said for me to hope that those who think it acceptable to use such chants would even consider the impact of their actions first requires them to be capable of showing any feeling towards others which I think sadly many just aint capable of doing.

JoJo_07
05-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Strikes me that this guy is probably a fan of either of the Old Firm, like the school bully saying ' aye, but he does it too'.

:grr:

Perhaps!
(http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=604:sectarian-summit-flawed-basis-flawed-solutions&catid=45:season-2010-2011&Itemid=80)

Here. (http://sport.scotsman.com/theoldfirm/Analysis-Can-we-really-expect.6730816.jp)

Here (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a778574287&fulltext=713240928)

He is an academic and his research interest is in this area BUT personally I would say he is "observing" stuff (in his studies) that simply is not there. Hibs re-asserting their Irishness WTF???

HOWEVER what cannot be disputed is what did happen on Saturday with the incidents (stuff being thrown, RS chant, The Billy Boys etc.).

I take it we will get a similar analysis when Celtic and Rangers come to ER?

MCameron
05-04-2011, 12:00 PM
[QUOTE=Andy74;2773094]I don't fit into any of those categories but to me the Skacel song is just slightly poor taste banter. Same as comparing someone to gay, fat, ugly or illegitimate people.

The focus of the song is Skacel, the refugee thing is not what the target of the song is about.

I can see where people get the opposite argument but I think that's giving it a stretch that the song didn't intend.



Just not the case Andy. Even if the intention of the singer isn't to be racist the bottom line is the song is a racist song. It's not about the message the singer thins they're giving be but how it affects others. Put the shoe on the otehr foot and think about it.

superfurryhibby
05-04-2011, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=Andy74;2773094]I don't fit into any of those categories but to me the Skacel song is just slightly poor taste banter. Same as comparing someone to gay, fat, ugly or illegitimate people.

The focus of the song is Skacel, the refugee thing is not what the target of the song is about.

I can see where people get the opposite argument but I think that's giving it a stretch that the song didn't intend.

Just not the case Andy. Even if the intention of the singer isn't to be racist the bottom line is the song is a racist song. It's not about the message the singer thins they're giving be but how it affects others. Put the shoe on the otehr foot and think about it.

Totally agree with that. The song is stupid and offensive. Says a lot about the moron's who sing it. The fact that the Czech Republic is being confused, I assume, with one of the former Yugoslavian territories just highlights how dumb some folk are.

Andy74
05-04-2011, 12:08 PM
Right.

So it's "slightly poor taste banter" to abuse someone because of his or her sexuality, obesity, personal appearance or parentage.

"Pig-faced poofter ******* whale" is "slightly poor taste banter"?

Does this only apply to non-Hibs footballers and football supporters, or is it OK to do this to anyone on any circumstances?

If you want to look at this logically, no, it's not okay to call anyone any of these things at any time.

Is going to the football a bit different? Yes probably it has been. When trying to wind up or put the opposition off its game it has been traditional to take the mic out of them in all sorts of ways that would be unacceptable face to face.

That doesn't make it right at all, but what I'm getting at is the selectivism here which is suggesting something like the Skacel song takes us from wind up merchants who have crossed a line of normal in the street beahviou to something well beyond that which is intentionally bigoted or racist with that being the main point of us sinnging it.

Take a simple example of two guys sitting in the stand, one is illegitimate and the other a genuine refugee.

The first chant is to the referee asking who the bassa in the black is. The insinutation is that there is something wrong with being a bassa that you would take issue with or be upset about.

That's offensive to the illegitimate guy in the crowd as he now thinks being a bassa seesm to be accepted by the crowd as bad thing. Was he the target? No, but as he is the real bassa he is the one likely to take offence.

The next chant is to skacel about being a refugee. Is he one? No, so the intenttion is to paint as something he is not so that he takes issue with it.

So, the offense is to the refugee in the crowd who now thinks that being a refugee seems to be painted as a negative thing. Was the refugee the target, with the intention to show offence or disrepect to them? No.

If you can't see the difference between that and shouting directly about a dislike of refugees, illegitimate people or something else then I'd disagree.

Being offensive to anyone is wrong but taken in the context of football and what the intention is, some things are very much more wrong than others and my proble is that things which are intetended one way are being taken as evidence that there is another far darket intetnion.

Viva_Palmeiras
05-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Even if racism wasn't bigotry it's not the best defense to use against the accusation is it. How very dare you sir, we're not bigots, we're racist.

Were not the peoples front of judaia ...

Andy74
05-04-2011, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=MCameron;2773110]

Totally agree with that. The song is stupid and offensive. Says a lot about the moron's who sing it. The fact that the Czech Republic is being confused, I assume, with one of the former Yugoslavian territories just highlights how dumb some folk are.

The whole point is that it wasn't thought about that deeply. It wasn't meant to be about the Czech Republic. Stupid and offensive, aye, like the most basic of football songs down the years but really, this has been given arms and legs it never had.

MCameron
05-04-2011, 12:24 PM
If you want to look at this logically, no, it's not okay to call anyone any of these things at any time.

Is going to the football a bit different? Yes probably it has been. When trying to wind up or put the opposition off its game it has been traditional to take the mic out of them in all sorts of ways that would be unacceptable face to face.

That doesn't make it right at all, but what I'm getting at is the selectivism here which is suggesting something like the Skacel song takes us from wind up merchants who have crossed a line of normal in the street beahviou to something well beyond that which is intentionally bigoted or racist with that being the main point of us sinnging it.

Take a simple example of two guys sitting in the stand, one is illegitimate and the other a genuine refugee.

The first chant is to the referee asking who the bassa in the black is. The insinutation is that there is something wrong with being a bassa that you would take issue with or be upset about.

That's offensive to the illegitimate guy in the crowd as he now thinks being a bassa seesm to be accepted by the crowd as bad thing. Was he the target? No, but as he is the real bassa he is the one likely to take offence.

The next chant is to skacel about being a refugee. Is he one? No, so the intenttion is to paint as something he is not so that he takes issue with it.

So, the offense is to the refugee in the crowd who now thinks that being a refugee seems to be painted as a negative thing. Was the refugee the target, with the intention to show offence or disrepect to them? No.

If you can't see the difference between that and shouting directly about a dislike of refugees, illegitimate people or something else then I'd disagree.

Being offensive to anyone is wrong but taken in the context of football and what the intention is, some things are very much more wrong than others and my proble is that things which are intetended one way are being taken as evidence that there is another far darket intetnion.

I think I understand where you're coming from but just can't agree.

I think those people in the crowd in your example hearing those 2 songs have every right to be upset.

Societies attitudes are (thankfully) moving on from where they were a few years ago - after all it wasn't that long ago Scotland (including Leith) was importing slaves from Africa which was seen as perfectly acceptable.

Jack
05-04-2011, 12:34 PM
Writing in The Scotsman today, Dr Kelly, who claims to have no affiliation with either Hibs or Hearts, said: "The latest Hibs-Hearts derby at Easter Road exposed the bigoted, intolerant and inflammatory behaviour of some Edinburgh fans that seems to have escaped scrutiny from the police and media alike.


For someone who claims to have no affiliation with Hibs, he seems intent on weaving a relationship between Hibernian FC and its fans with Celtic and Hearts that has taken up a fair bit of his time over the last few years. And of course such publicity will do HIM no harm whatsoever for possible work in the future as he milks a few minutes of the match for all its worth.

I’m beginning to wonder just who does sing these songs because its not me either but I still heard them! There's no place for them in a decent society.

If its like the Mercer songs though, which I suspect it is, then its [daft] wee laddies who have no idea of the significance of these songs other than they attract news headlines, courtesy of the likes of Dr John Kelly or some self publicist politician, and the ire of other fans. Of course its unlikely Dr John Kelly could make a career out of that though.

As for the abstract was I asleep when Hibernian FC and their fans tried to reclaim their Irishness? :confused: Because I was certainly asleep when Celtc questioned the legitimacy of their Oirishness! :faf:



Dr John Kelly

Profile

http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/education/about-us/people/academic-staff?person_id=224&cw_xml=profile.php

[includes]

My research interests lie within the broad area of the sociological analysis of sport and physical education. My research seeks to critically evaluate the relationships between class, nation, ethnicity and sport within Scotland and the UK in particular. Developing theoretical explanations and potential recommendations for lived realities within sport and society is of primary concern

[And]

I am prepared to consider supervising research in the areas described above and

[And]

The main areas I'm currently researching involve:
Irish diaspora communities and Scottish football - The supporters of Hibernian Football Club and its relationship with Celtic and Heart of Midlothian Football Clubs

[Also]

Hibernian Football Club: The Forgotten Irish?

Abstract
The popular expression of the Irish sporting diaspora in Scotland has traditionally been closely associated with Celtic Football Club, despite Hibernian Football Club (Hibs), formed in 1875 by the Catholic Young Men's Society, being the first prominent Irish Catholic football club in Scotland. During Hibs' history, with increasing assimilation into Edinburgh and Scottish society, there have been periods when the club's Irish Catholic ethos has been challenged, resulting in its identity having to be renegotiated. For some supporters (Catholic) 'Irish' symbols signify a simplistic and pejorative association to 'sectarian' and as such there have been periods when they have downplayed this element of their identity. [1] This makes erroneous any claims that Hibs is the Celtic of the East. However, at the same time, it is naive to disregard the efficacy which 'Irishness' holds for sections of Hibs' supporters. In the increasingly secularized and corporatized environment of the Scottish Premier League, there are renewed attempts, for different reasons perhaps, at reclaiming Hibs' 'Irishness' within the club itself and among some of its supporters. Ironically, this process of Hibs reclaiming its 'Irishness' is occurring when sections of Celtic's supporters are increasingly questioning the legitimacy of their 'Irishness'. [2] This essay attempts to locate and analyse the sense of 'Irishness' existing among Hibs supporters today. Hibs' relationship with its main 'other', Heart of Midlothian Football Club (Hearts), is shown to exhibit a unique inter-city Edinburgh rivalry that intimately affects the nature of Hibs' 'Irishness', ensuring its differences from that of Celtic's. The interconnected nature of Hibs' and Celtic fans' respective sense of 'Irishness' is demonstrated in the increased confidence and desire of Hibs FC to begin reclaiming its 'Irishness' without fear of being associated with the often disdainfully viewed Celtic or 'sectarianism'.


This isn't shooting the messenger BTW, its questioning his motive(s) – and that stuff about Celtc I thought was just ****ing hilarious.

Keith_M
05-04-2011, 12:36 PM
I was a bit worried that on reading this thread that most people would be criticising the article and defending the songs/behaviour. I'm pleasantly surprised to see that the majority have looked past any inaccuracies or anything else to concentrate on the main point, that the guy has pointed out something that is wrong.

There really isn't the same division in the East of Scotland over religion, which spills over into support of the two main clubs, despite the writer generally hinting at such a scenario. However, there are things I'm personally unhappy about in the behaviour of some of our so-called supporters. I'm sure the Hibs fan in the East Stand on Sunday that was felled by an object thrown from the back of the stand would agree.

One other thing. The OF defence is to paint the opposition as just as bad, or worse, as if that justified what they say and do. That's one of the reasons they've never got round to fixing the problem. Let's concentrate on what goes on among the Hibs support and leave the behaviour of the Hearts 'fans' to themselves and their club.

--------
05-04-2011, 12:36 PM
If you want to look at this logically, no, it's not okay to call anyone any of these things at any time.

Is going to the football a bit different? Yes probably it has been. When trying to wind up or put the opposition off its game it has been traditional to take the mic out of them in all sorts of ways that would be unacceptable face to face.

That doesn't make it right at all, but what I'm getting at is the selectivism here which is suggesting something like the Skacel song takes us from wind up merchants who have crossed a line of normal in the street beahviou to something well beyond that which is intentionally bigoted or racist with that being the main point of us sinnging it.

Take a simple example of two guys sitting in the stand, one is illegitimate and the other a genuine refugee.

The first chant is to the referee asking who the bassa in the black is. The insinutation is that there is something wrong with being a bassa that you would take issue with or be upset about.

That's offensive to the illegitimate guy in the crowd as he now thinks being a bassa seesm to be accepted by the crowd as bad thing. Was he the target? No, but as he is the real bassa he is the one likely to take offence.

The next chant is to skacel about being a refugee. Is he one? No, so the intenttion is to paint as something he is not so that he takes issue with it.

So, the offense is to the refugee in the crowd who now thinks that being a refugee seems to be painted as a negative thing. Was the refugee the target, with the intention to show offence or disrepect to them? No.

If you can't see the difference between that and shouting directly about a dislike of refugees, illegitimate people or something else then I'd disagree.

Being offensive to anyone is wrong but taken in the context of football and what the intention is, some things are very much more wrong than others and my proble is that things which are intetended one way are being taken as evidence that there is another far darket intetnion.



Eh? What? :confused:

Using EITHER "refugee" OR "b*st*ard" as a term of abuse is offensive. Offensive to people who are in the unfortunate position of being refugees; offensive to those who have had their parentage thrown at them as an insult in the past.

It's not about hurling direct insults at people sitting around you. It's about seeing certain groups of people as inferior to yourself, and then using the names of those groups as insults at a football match.

The Skacel song's a disgrace. The stuff sung and chanted at referees is disgraceful too. Racist, sectarian, homopohobic abuse as well.

I support Hibs, and I'm trying very hard NOT to hate, despise or belittle the players and fans of other clubs - even the OF, even Hearts. Because supporting Hibs isn't about hating or despising everyone else. Or shouldn't be.

Because songs and chants of hate and contempt and mockery say nothing at all about the people they're aimed at; they say all that needs to be said about the people doing the singing and chanting.

Sir David Gray
05-04-2011, 12:37 PM
I don't fit into any of those categories but to me the Skacel song is just slightly poor taste banter. Same as comparing someone to gay, fat, ugly or illegitimate people.

The focus of the song is Skacel, the refugee thing is not what the target of the song is about.

I can see where people get the opposite argument but I think that's giving it a stretch that the song didn't intend.

I do think some sing it now because they do think it is racist though but going back to the origins of the song in Dnipro it wasn't that at all.

You do refer to it and dismiss it earlier but shouting at someone as a fat bassa is probably more hurtful and offensive than this.

Agree with this.

Like I said a couple of months ago when a similar thread popped up on this issue, Skacel is targeted because he's an :asshole:.

Why have various other Central/Eastern Europeans who have played for Hearts in recent years not received this kind of 'abuse'?

Marian Kello
Janos Balogh
Dawid Kucharski
Adrian Mrowiec
Saulius Mikoliunas
Deividas Cesnauskis
Arvydas Novikovas
Marius Zaliukas
Roman Bednar

Those players have all played for Hearts in recent years and are from Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and the Czech Republic and none of those players have been bothered by the Hibs fans.

The problem is with Rudi Skacel, nothing else.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with Hibs fans throwing objects at Hearts players. Skacel was targeted during the derby in November with coins and other missiles just after Riordan got sent off and I thought that was absolutely disgraceful.

If I was in his position and I played for a team in the Czech Republic and I had 10 people throwing coins and lighters at my head and another 500 people calling me a refugee, I know which of the two I would be most concerned about.

The song is politically incorrect but I just can't get too excited about people singing it and I certainly don't see the need for reporting anyone to Hibs over it.

marinello59
05-04-2011, 12:43 PM
Agree with this.

Like I said a couple of months ago when a similar thread popped up on this issue, Skacel is targeted because he's an :asshole:.

Why have various other Central/Eastern Europeans who have played for Hearts in recent years not received this kind of 'abuse'?

Marian Kello
Janos Balogh
Dawid Kucharski
Adrian Mrowiec
Saulius Mikoliunas
Deividas Cesnauskis
Arvydas Novikovas
Marius Zaliukas
Roman Bednar

Those players have all played for Hearts in recent years and are from Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and the Czech Republic and none of those players have been bothered by the Hibs fans.

The problem is with Rudi Skacel, nothing else.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with Hibs fans throwing objects at Hearts players. Skacel was targeted during the derby in November with coins and other missiles just after Riordan got sent off and I thought that was absolutely disgraceful.

If I was in his position and I played for a team in the Czech Republic and I had 10 people throwing coins and lighters at my head and another 500 people calling me a refugee, I know which of the two I would be most concerned about.

The song is politically incorrect but I just can't get too excited about people singing it and I certainly don't see the need for reporting anyone to Hibs over it.

So your defense is that we ignore the racist singing (which you feel is justified because he is an erse) because we behaved much more badly when we chucked stuff at him?

Tricla
05-04-2011, 12:45 PM
TBF, singing that Skacel is a refugee isn't racist or bigoted surely.

The definition of 'refugee' is someone who is an exile fleeing for safety.

So by definition are we (me excluded BTW) not just singing that he has fled for safety?

:dunno:

IWasThere2016
05-04-2011, 12:50 PM
Is Trakys a refugee?

--------
05-04-2011, 12:53 PM
Agree with this.

Like I said a couple of months ago when a similar thread popped up on this issue, Skacel is targeted because he's an :asshole:.

Why have various other Central/Eastern Europeans who have played for Hearts in recent years not received this kind of 'abuse'?

Marian Kello
Janos Balogh
Dawid Kucharski
Adrian Mrowiec
Saulius Mikoliunas
Deividas Cesnauskis
Arvydas Novikovas
Marius Zaliukas
Roman Bednar

Those players have all played for Hearts in recent years and are from Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and the Czech Republic and none of those players have been bothered by the Hibs fans.

The problem is with Rudi Skacel, nothing else.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with Hibs fans throwing objects at Hearts players. Skacel was targeted during the derby in November with coins and other missiles just after Riordan got sent off and I thought that was absolutely disgraceful.

If I was in his position and I played for a team in the Czech Republic and I had 10 people throwing coins and lighters at my head and another 500 people calling me a refugee, I know which of the two I would be most concerned about.

The song is politically incorrect but I just can't get too excited about people singing it and I certainly don't see the need for reporting anyone to Hibs over it.


Read this again and think about it, mate.

The dirty names and the racist songs are one side of the same coin as the missiles thrown at him.

Calling him dirty names leads on very easily to throwing things at him - the same people with the same dirty attitudes.

You call a man a dirty Yid, then you throw bricks through his windows, then you make him wear a yellow star, then you put him in a camp, then you gas him - all part of the same vicious circle.

Beefster
05-04-2011, 12:55 PM
For someone who claims to have no affiliation with Hibs, he seems intent on weaving a relationship between Hibernian FC and its fans with Celtic and Hearts that has taken up a fair bit of his time over the last few years. And of course such publicity will do HIM no harm whatsoever for possible work in the future as he milks a few minutes of the match for all its worth.

I’m beginning to wonder just who does sing these songs because its not me either but I still heard them! There's no place for them in a decent society.

If its like the Mercer songs though, which I suspect it is, then its [daft] wee laddies who have no idea of the significance of these songs other than they attract news headlines, courtesy of the likes of Dr John Kelly or some self publicist politician, and the ire of other fans. Of course its unlikely Dr John Kelly could make a career out of that though.

As for the abstract was I asleep when Hibernian FC and their fans tried to reclaim their Irishness? :confused: Because I was certainly asleep when Celtc questioned the legitimacy of their Oirishness! :faf:




This isn't shooting the messenger BTW, its questioning his motive(s) – and that stuff about Celtc I thought was just ****ing hilarious.

Your post is the sort of thing that pops up on Sickbag when a journalist, academic or politician says anything that doesn't follow the Hearts party line.

You haven't said that any of the things he claims is pish. You just criticise him for saying it.

Kato
05-04-2011, 12:56 PM
I can't believe the behaviour that makes the field of study viable.

What I meant was there are, sadly, already thousands of experts who picked up a deep knowledge of sport and sectarianism merely by attending Scottish football games over the years and being forced to listen to that crap - and it didn't cost the tax-payer a penny in their education.

Beefster
05-04-2011, 12:59 PM
Agree with this.

Like I said a couple of months ago when a similar thread popped up on this issue, Skacel is targeted because he's an :asshole:.

Why have various other Central/Eastern Europeans who have played for Hearts in recent years not received this kind of 'abuse'?

Marian Kello
Janos Balogh
Dawid Kucharski
Adrian Mrowiec
Saulius Mikoliunas
Deividas Cesnauskis
Arvydas Novikovas
Marius Zaliukas
Roman Bednar

Those players have all played for Hearts in recent years and are from Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and the Czech Republic and none of those players have been bothered by the Hibs fans.

The problem is with Rudi Skacel, nothing else.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with Hibs fans throwing objects at Hearts players. Skacel was targeted during the derby in November with coins and other missiles just after Riordan got sent off and I thought that was absolutely disgraceful.

If I was in his position and I played for a team in the Czech Republic and I had 10 people throwing coins and lighters at my head and another 500 people calling me a refugee, I know which of the two I would be most concerned about.

The song is politically incorrect but I just can't get too excited about people singing it and I certainly don't see the need for reporting anyone to Hibs over it.

Would you be happy for someone to target your disability as a stick to beat you with, if they thought you were an ****hole?

Beefster
05-04-2011, 01:01 PM
TBF, singing that Skacel is a refugee isn't racist or bigoted surely.

The definition of 'refugee' is someone who is an exile fleeing for safety.

So by definition are we (me excluded BTW) not just singing that he has fled for safety?

:dunno:

Did he? When did this happen?

Your logic is the same as the folk that say 'the song about Sodje's tadger isn't racist because we're complimenting the size of it'.

dangermouse
05-04-2011, 01:08 PM
I thought one of the main problems post OF games was the increase in domestic violence. I see this has not been raised in any way shape or form post an Edinburgh Derby.

It does sadden me the way some sections of our fans behaved themselves on Sunday, the away support, I couldn't care less how they behaved. We should be able to rise above it all and be a credit to our club not a millstone round their neck.

basehibby
05-04-2011, 01:08 PM
Just asking a valid question, I do not disagree with what he is saying,but to get a ticket for the Hibs end you have to be on the data base, he is either a liar or an interloper.:agree:

Are neutrals not allowed to watch a football match these days then :confused:

basehibby
05-04-2011, 01:11 PM
the article is incorrect . it labels the actions of the hibs support as bigoted (which in the scottish football context is seen as intolerance of catholics or protestants) . thats what annoyed me. I agree there were unacceptable elements on Sunday, but ones common to many derbies in England, for example. The article attempted to lump hibs and hearts in with the old firm, and both teams (hibs to a greater extent) have moved well away from that.

I certainly wasn't condoning the skacel chant which is wrong. However, I don't think many people who sing the skacel chant are actually really racist against czechs. The intolerance is of hearts, thats what we need to talk about. and I think the motivation of singing the song is to cause offence to hearts and their followers.

Nah - sorry mate - the Rudi Refugee song is bigotted in any language - against refugees of any religeous persuasion but bigotted nevertheless. I take your point that the Hibs support have largely eliminated religeous bigotry from our song book by means of decades of self policing and changed attitudes (unlike the Yams and the OF) but that doesn't let folk off the hook when they decide to indulge in songs like that which have a definite edge of intolerance to them.
The only criticism offered by the good doctor which I think is misplaced is when he objects to us pointing out the presence of a sex offender (and not for the first time either) amongst the Hearts ranks - its hardly our fault if the Yams follow a policy of signing kiddie fiddlers is it?!?

Andy74
05-04-2011, 01:19 PM
Nah - sorry mate - the Rudi Refugee song is bigotted in any language - against refugees of any religeous persuasion but bigotted nevertheless.

As is the Paul Hartley is gay song, the booked for being ugly song, the list goes on.

Of course in reality they are all wrong but one of these ilk is no worse than another and that is what is being suggested, that we have intentions far worse than just using something someone isn't to wind them up.

That's not the same as singing ' all refugees are tossers' really, is it, that would be quite another intention.

football songs, like jokes, set out to offend some of the time, not sure i'd want to clean them all up to be honest as that isn't life. There are lines and over time we can see some where we didn't before and things change but I think and always have, that well intentioned people have just got the Skacel thing all wrong.

I haven't heard many call the Hartley song a disgrace for example.

Baldy Foghorn
05-04-2011, 01:28 PM
Its true. Uncomfortable reading but true. Just because we're not as bad as the Old firm doesnt mean theres not improvement to be made.

The fenian blood chant from Hearts fans on Sunday was just as clearly audible and undeniable as when Rangers are at ER. And i cant remember thinking that before. Its definitely getting worse with them...

Agree with the above, it is getting worse.....

greenlex
05-04-2011, 01:29 PM
I was giving the young Ginger full back it tight when he was taking throw ins. I dont dislike Ginger people ( my sister is one) but was attempting to wind him up. Is this acceptable?

marinello59
05-04-2011, 01:32 PM
I was giving the young Ginger full back it tight when he was taking throw ins. I dont dislike Ginger people ( my sister is one) but was attempting to wind him up. Is this acceptable?

I don't think it was the colour of his that got you going. More likely it was because he had hair at all.:greengrin

greenlex
05-04-2011, 01:33 PM
I don't think it was the colour of his that got you going. More likely it was because he had hair at all.:greengrin

Aye these Gingers don't know how lucky they are.

Baldy Foghorn
05-04-2011, 01:34 PM
Does it matter what he says is completely spot on? No doubt some Hibee he knows got it for him.

He is spot on, and that is hard to accept, we do have bigots and racist elements within our support.....

Pretty Boy
05-04-2011, 01:38 PM
As is the Paul Hartley is gay song, the booked for being ugly song, the list goes on.

Of course in reality they are all wrong but one of these ilk is no worse than another and that is what is being suggested, that we have intentions far worse than just using something someone isn't to wind them up.

That's not the same as singing ' all refugees are tossers' really, is it, that would be quite another intention.

football songs, like jokes, set out to offend some of the time, not sure i'd want to clean them all up to be honest as that isn't life. There are lines and over time we can see some where we didn't before and things change but I think and always have, that well intentioned people have just got the Skacel thing all wrong.

I haven't heard many call the Hartley song a disgrace for example.

Andy i can see where you are coming from but i think a lot of the problem comes from the perception of the song as well as the content. I personally find it racist but i accept we may have to agree to disagree on that point.

I'm sure a lot of people who sing the Skacel song aren't racist but the simple fact is the song is now being perceived as racist by sections of our own support, by Hearts fans and not for the first time it's been mentioned in a newspaper. Maybe on that basis it's about time those that sing it realise it doesn't look good and reflects poorly on the club and maybe it's about time we gave it a rest.

In reply to FH if the song has no racist connotations at all then why 'Rudi Skacel is a ****ing refugee' why not 'Rudi Skacel yer a ******', a song we have aimed at many people over the years. I'm not accusing you, or anyone who sings the song, of being racist but i absolutely refuse to accept that the refugee reference has nothing to do with a mistaken belief that Skacel comes from a poor country in Eastern Europe (when in fact he comes from a reasonably well off country in Central Europe). To argue it's acceptable to throw out any old insult at someone just because you think they are a bit of an erse is just plain wrong IMO. As has been previously asked if someone was to aim an insult at you based on your use of a wheelchair just because they thought you were a bit of an erse would you be as understanding as you appear to be regarding the Skacel song?

basehibby
05-04-2011, 01:41 PM
As is the Paul Hartley is gay song, the booked for being ugly song, the list goes on.

Of course in reality they are all wrong but one of these ilk is no worse than another and that is what is being suggested, that we have intentions far worse than just using something someone isn't to wind them up.

That's not the same as singing ' all refugees are tossers' really, is it, that would be quite another intention.

football songs, like jokes, set out to offend some of the time, not sure i'd want to clean them all up to be honest as that isn't life. There are lines and over time we can see some where we didn't before and things change but I think and always have, that well intentioned people have just got the Skacel thing all wrong.

I haven't heard many call the Hartley song a disgrace for example.

Fair point - if we cut out ALL references that might offend someone then ER would be a pretty quiet place on match days. I myself will admit to shouting at a certain Yam taking a throw in that I'd ****ged his Ma the night before (and she was pish) - it was Mother Day afterall, and was it meant to be offensive ? - absolutely.
BUT - we have to draw the line somewhere and for me there's some things that are very easy to rule out rather than in - religous and racial intolerance among them.

Tricla
05-04-2011, 02:17 PM
Did he? When did this happen?

Your logic is the same as the folk that say 'the song about Sodje's tadger isn't racist because we're complimenting the size of it'.

I'm not saying that it did happen just that that is what refugee means.

As someone else has said, the Skacel song isn't entirely PC but sod PC.

It cannot be compared to the bile that is spouted by Hertz and the ugly two.

In regards to the Sodje song, that's a bit of banter. I was at St Mirren when it was introduced and it was all just a bit of fun.

Honestly, people are far, far too easlily offended these days.

Jack
05-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Your post is the sort of thing that pops up on Sickbag when a journalist, academic or politician says anything that doesn't follow the Hearts party line.

You haven't said that any of the things he claims is pish. You just criticise him for saying it.

No I agree with what he’s saying – these songs are just wrong and I said that.

I do however question his motives for making such a big deal of it when our support sung the offending song for no more than a couple of minutes in total and the yams sang their song only once, that I only just made out. In total the time it takes to read his article is longer than the time the errant chants took at the game, I’m still not justifying the chants/songs. I’ll make no excuse for them at all but I’ll react if I feel the response to them is disproportionate, or there are other possible motives for such a response.

Just because he’s an academic or its academia doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be challenged, in fact that’s partly what academic papers are about – standing up to questioning – if that abstract is any sort of accurate reflection on his work then IMO its seriously flawed – but that’s not about his observations of what was sung. However, if we must …

“… seems to have escaped scrutiny from the police and media alike.”

If he had been keeping up with his subject he would have known the police would take no action at the match. Following the OF match it was stated as a matter of policy that the police ‘would (or could) not arrest their way through this (or out of it)’ [sectarian singing] – either way the police were going to do nothing at the match. He makes no mention of asking the police commander after the match if anything was going to happen. They would of course say they would ‘act robustly’.

The media didn’t cover it because the incidents were not deemed significant enough to warrant a mention. Now there's a thing in its own right. The Glasgow media, always trying to dilute the OF negatives have had a pop at both Hibs and hearts in the past when there's been a hint of naughtiness from the Edinburgh pair, not a peep this time. Could that have been because it was a tiny proportion of the crowd that sang for a tiny proportion of the time and to give it any credence would have been disproportionate?

I wonder if Dr John’s departmental budgets are being cut?

marinello59
05-04-2011, 02:25 PM
I'm not saying that it did happen just that that is what refugee means.

As someone else has said, the Skacel song isn't entirely PC but sod PC.

It cannot be compared to the bile that is spouted by Hertz and the ugly two.

In regards to the Sodje song, that's a bit of banter. I was at St Mirren when it was introduced and it was all just a bit of fun.

Honestly, people are far, far too easlily offended these days.

It doesn't call him a refugee. It calls him a ******* refugee. It can be compared to the bile that the Hertz and Old Firm spout because it is no better.

And sorry when people start using the PC term I switch off. At best it's meaningless. At worst it's a lazy dismissal of those who disagree with a viewpoint without any attempt to engage in debate properly.

Phil D. Rolls
05-04-2011, 03:02 PM
[QUOTE=superfurryhibby;2773114]

The whole point is that it wasn't thought about that deeply. It wasn't meant to be about the Czech Republic. Stupid and offensive, aye, like the most basic of football songs down the years but really, this has been given arms and legs it never had.


TBF, singing that Skacel is a refugee isn't racist or bigoted surely.

The definition of 'refugee' is someone who is an exile fleeing for safety.

So by definition are we (me excluded BTW) not just singing that he has fled for safety?

:dunno:


As is the Paul Hartley is gay song, the booked for being ugly song, the list goes on.



Do I win 5 pounds?

Honestly, we go over the same tiresome counter arguments every time this issue is raised. There is so much supposition about what people meant or intended by singing the song.

As it isn't practical to ask each individual's thoughts on why they sang the song, surely the safest thing to do is to take it at face value and just admit it is racist.

Every time this debate comes up we hear the most pathetic attempts to use semantics to dismiss what (IMO) most people would consider to be a racist and offensive song.

I do appreciate that a lot of people will just see it as banter, but likewise there will be others who mean it as a venomous racist taunt, aimed not just at Skacel but at every immigrant to these shores.

It's shades of grey like this that racist groups play on. The sort of person who is anti immigration is also the sort of person who is not bright enough to appreciate irony. Of course the greatest irony is that Hibs were founded by immigrants, and many in our support would take great offence at anything that they deemed to be derogatory about that.

Things like "up to our knees etc........". And I don't buy this line that tthe football can't be fun without a bit of offensiveness. It is possible to wind up the opposition, and have a laugh, without being deeply offensive to many people in our community.

For example, the rugby ball getting thrown on the pitch was funny. Using words like sc*m and racist songs like "Ode to Skacel" is only funny to the sort of people that would laugh at a dog eating its own poo.

Grow up and move on. The song is just wrong, and defenders of it only make themselves look more pathetic and petty with every "yeah but, no but" excuse they come out with.

I hope Hibs take this seriously and take steps to have these people ejected from the ground. It's not on.

No offence meant to the posters above, I just don't agree with your arguments.

JimBHibees
05-04-2011, 03:06 PM
[QUOTE=Andy74;2773122]





Do I win 5 pounds?

Honestly, we go over the same tiresome counter arguments every time this issue is raised. There is so much supposition about what people meant or intended by singing the song.

As it isn't practical to ask each individual's thoughts on why they sang the song, surely the safest thing to do is to take it at face value and just admit it is racist.

Every time this debate comes up we hear the most pathetic attempts to use semantics to dismiss what (IMO) most people would consider to be a racist and offensive song.

I do appreciate that a lot of people will just see it as banter, but likewise there will be others who mean it as a venomous racist taunt, aimed not just at Skacel but at every immigrant to these shores.

It's shades of grey like this that racist groups play on. The sort of person who is anti immigration is also the sort of person who is not bright enough to appreciate irony. Of course the greatest irony is that Hibs were founded by immigrants, and many in our support would take great offence at anything that they deemed to be derogatory about that.

Things like "up to our knees etc........". And I don't buy this line that tthe football can't be fun without a bit of offensiveness. It is possible to wind up the opposition, and have a laugh, without being deeply offensive to many people in our community.

For example, the rugby ball getting thrown on the pitch was funny. Using words like sc*m and racist songs like "Ode to Skacel" is only funny to the sort of people that would laugh at a dog eating its own poo.

Grow up and move on. The song is just wrong, and defenders of it only make themselves look more pathetic and petty with every "yeah but, no but" excuse they come out with.

I hope Hibs take this seriously and take steps to have these people ejected from the ground. It's not on.

No offence meant to the posters above, I just don't agree with your arguments.

Totally agree the song is a complete embarressment.

johnrebus
05-04-2011, 03:32 PM
Do you truly believe that? They support their team and wear those rose-tinted glasses that those who support our team do too. Do we really 'hate' people from our own city who just happen to follow a different team? I think it's a sad day if true hate is what football has come to. Perhaps getting a perspective on the things that really matter and the problems faced by millions in life might help put football into perspective - it's a game at the end of the day.

On the subject of the skacel song I agree that there is no place for this (not only within football but in society). Anyone who thinks it's a bit of a laugh should think about how they would feel if they were living in another country earning a living and people were chanting that they were a refugee while thousands of others (including kids) were watching. Certainly not a clip Visit Scotland is likely to use in it's adverts!

The excuse that it's to wind up the hearts fans is quite simply pathetic and the defence that 'Am no a racist / bigot / homophobe' just doesn't wash. They may think they're none of these but they are a) kidding themselves on, b) are lying and know they are one or c) just don't have the mental capacity to understand what racism / homophobia or bigotry actually are.

It's not about how the chant sounds or what it means to you - it's all about how it makes the recipient or others feel.

That said for me to hope that those who think it acceptable to use such chants would even consider the impact of their actions first requires them to be capable of showing any feeling towards others which I think sadly many just aint capable of doing.

Where exactly in my post did I mention the word hate?

:confused:

Beefster
05-04-2011, 03:40 PM
I'm not saying that it did happen just that that is what refugee means.

As someone else has said, the Skacel song isn't entirely PC but sod PC.

It cannot be compared to the bile that is spouted by Hertz and the ugly two.

In regards to the Sodje song, that's a bit of banter. I was at St Mirren when it was introduced and it was all just a bit of fun.

Honestly, people are far, far too easlily offended these days.

Someone on here posted a few weeks ago that Sodje and his family find it offensive. What does Sodje know though, eh?

Phil D. Rolls
05-04-2011, 03:45 PM
Someone on here posted a few weeks ago that Sodje and his family find it offensive. What does Sodje know though, eh?

Needs to lighten up. :rolleyes:

marinello59
05-04-2011, 03:48 PM
Needs to lighten up. :rolleyes:

Probably part of the PC brigade. :agree:

Pretty Boy
05-04-2011, 03:58 PM
Probably part of the PC brigade. :agree:

Definitely got at by the liberal media. Bunch of pinkos.

NAE NOOKIE
05-04-2011, 03:59 PM
We do have to be carefull as to crossing the line between winding up opposition fans and players and being bigoted or racist.

I have heard some sick chants at ER in my time which were bloody funny at the time, but in reality should perhaps have been left in the song book unused.

But there are certain things that should be a no brainer.

For instance if you know for sure that an opposition player is gay that is not an excuse to abuse him because of it. It also goes without saying that a players colour or ethnic origin should be a no go area and rightly so.

Rudi Scatchel for instance clearly isnt a refugee, so who are the dummies ?

Also ..... All of the Hibees clearly are not gay, in fact as far as I am aware isnt it the case that statistically around 5 to 10% of us are gay. Just like the Yams in fact :greengrin

As for Edinburgh is wonderful:

Yes it is, its one of the worlds most beautiful cities with fantastic culture, history and architecture, the worlds best football club and a whole host of other things that make it a great town.

I was born there and am hugely proud of that fact.

In fact the only time I have ever been ashamed to be from Edinburgh was at Hampden before that semi when I heard a gang of neds singing that disgusting song. I got over the result that day ... eventually. I could never get over the thought that anybody hearing so called Hibs fans singing that tripe would think that I as a Hibby would want anything to do with it.

If you want to sing that ***** and really believe it, then sod off and follow the KKK ..... and leave HFC to the 99% of us ( I hope ) who have managed to grow a brain.

Rant over.

Dunbar Hibee
05-04-2011, 04:02 PM
It doesn't call him a refugee. It calls him a ******* refugee. It can be compared to the bile that the Hertz and Old Firm spout because it is no better.

And sorry when people start using the PC term I switch off. At best it's meaningless. At worst it's a lazy dismissal of those who disagree with a viewpoint without any attempt to engage in debate properly.

And?

marinello59
05-04-2011, 04:07 PM
And?

Do I really have to expand on that. Seriously? Maybe you think adding ******* makes it less offensive?

Tricla
05-04-2011, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=Andy74;2773122]





Do I win 5 pounds?

Honestly, we go over the same tiresome counter arguments every time this issue is raised. There is so much supposition about what people meant or intended by singing the song.

As it isn't practical to ask each individual's thoughts on why they sang the song, surely the safest thing to do is to take it at face value and just admit it is racist.

Every time this debate comes up we hear the most pathetic attempts to use semantics to dismiss what (IMO) most people would consider to be a racist and offensive song.

I do appreciate that a lot of people will just see it as banter, but likewise there will be others who mean it as a venomous racist taunt, aimed not just at Skacel but at every immigrant to these shores.

It's shades of grey like this that racist groups play on. The sort of person who is anti immigration is also the sort of person who is not bright enough to appreciate irony. Of course the greatest irony is that Hibs were founded by immigrants, and many in our support would take great offence at anything that they deemed to be derogatory about that.

Things like "up to our knees etc........". And I don't buy this line that tthe football can't be fun without a bit of offensiveness. It is possible to wind up the opposition, and have a laugh, without being deeply offensive to many people in our community.

For example, the rugby ball getting thrown on the pitch was funny. Using words like sc*m and racist songs like "Ode to Skacel" is only funny to the sort of people that would laugh at a dog eating its own poo.

Grow up and move on. The song is just wrong, and defenders of it only make themselves look more pathetic and petty with every "yeah but, no but" excuse they come out with.
I hope Hibs take this seriously and take steps to have these people ejected from the ground. It's not on.

No offence meant to the posters above, I just don't agree with your arguments.

No offence taken.

I wasn't defending it though. I was merely pointing out the definition of the word 'refugee'.

I couldn't care what is sung in the away end or the home end.

Sticks and stones as far as I'm concerned.

This 'problem' of bigotry, racism, sectarianism etc is made all the worse by how much people get their knickers in a twist about it.

It happened on the terraces all the way through the 60's, 70's and 80's and virtually nobody cared. Everyone went to the game and had a good time according to the stories I am told by my Dad and older Hibbys.

Then the world got PC and all of a sudden everyone is offended by everything.

Barney McGrew
05-04-2011, 04:09 PM
I'm sure a lot of people who sing the Skacel song aren't racist but the simple fact is the song is now being perceived as racist by sections of our own support, by Hearts fans and not for the first time it's been mentioned in a newspaper. Maybe on that basis it's about time those that sing it realise it doesn't look good and reflects poorly on the club and maybe it's about time we gave it a rest.

That's it in a nutshell :agree:

Whether people think it's racist or not, there's many, many people out there that think it is. Carrying on belting it out is only going to get the club in trouble in the long term and ruin our reputation.

marinello59
05-04-2011, 04:11 PM
This 'problem' of bigotry, racism, sectarianism etc is made all the worse by how much people get their knickers in a twist about it.

It happened on the terraces all the way through the 60's, 70's and 80's and virtually nobody cared. Everyone went to the game and had a good time according to the stories I am told by my Dad and older Hibbys.

Then the world got PC and all of a sudden everyone is offended by everything.

No it isn't. It is made worse by people tolerating those who indulge in it.

Dunbar Hibee
05-04-2011, 04:16 PM
Do I really have to expand on that. Seriously? Maybe you think adding ******* makes it less offensive?

I don't really think it makes it any more offensive tbh

CropleyWasGod
05-04-2011, 04:18 PM
[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2773264]

No offence taken.

I wasn't defending it though. I was merely pointing out the definition of the word 'refugee'.

I couldn't care what is sung in the away end or the home end.

Sticks and stones as far as I'm concerned.

This 'problem' of bigotry, racism, sectarianism etc is made all the worse by how much people get their knickers in a twist about it.

It happened on the terraces all the way through the 60's, 70's and 80's and virtually nobody cared. Everyone went to the game and had a good time according to the stories I am told by my Dad and older Hibbys.

Then the world got PC and all of a sudden everyone is offended by everything.

You mean people on the receiving end of it decided to stand up against it? Well, damn them for doing so... and shoot the rest of us for actually supporting them.

As for your quote about "everyone having a good time" in the 60's etc... nah, so many people got turned off in those eras, particularly by the nonsense that used to go on.

Like Marinello, I am turned off by the use of the term PC. Substitute it by the word "respect" and we might be on to something...

Dashing Bob S
05-04-2011, 04:19 PM
Anybody who knows anything about Scottish football and culture knows that the OF have cultivated and sustained sectarianism in this country for their own benefit. Sadly, in doing so, they have also infected the whole of Scotland, so none of us, unfortunately, are immune from the repercussions of this tedious crap.

What we're seeing now, (as we generally do), is the Scottish establishment in journalism, politics and academia etc coming together in order to protect the OF and the status quo, by stressing that this is a Scottish-wide problem, rather than anything specifically to do with those vile institutions.

It involves shifting the emphasis of any inquiry to look at the effects of this bigoted culture, rather than its root causes. It's about creating a smokescreen, rather than going to the heart of the problem. The few hundred Hibs fans who sing the Skackel song, and the few thousand Hearts ones who sing about 'being up to their knees in Fenian blood' to 'annoy us' (who cares) or, more likely, arselick the bigots in the west, are merely colluding with this shabby project.

Every non-OF fan will be put under the microscope by the authorities now, in order that they 'prove' sectarianism is a widespread phenomenon and therefore, as is the usual practice, do absolutely nothing about Rangers and Celtic.

It puts us in this position of having to be holier than thou, not the reason why most of us go to football and let of steam.

That can't be achieved. In fact, we might as well bring along tricolours and union jacks and belt out turgid old republican and loyalists ballads every week. If everyone was doing it and Rantic had no advantage in attracting idiots/glory hunters, then it would probably get even more tedious and meaningless than it already is and stop this nonsense far more quickly, than through any half-arsed attempts at social engineering by the hapless authorities in Scotland.

Tricla
05-04-2011, 04:46 PM
No it isn't. It is made worse by people tolerating those who indulge in it.

In your opinion.

I couldn't give a hoot and if everyone else felt the same then this debate wouldn't be taking place.

We could just leave those who are bigots on all sides to scrap it out amongst themselves.

IMO of course.

There are much more important things to worry about in the world than religion and race IMO.

Tricla
05-04-2011, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=Tricla;2773309]

You mean people on the receiving end of it decided to stand up against it? Well, damn them for doing so... and shoot the rest of us for actually supporting them.

As for your quote about "everyone having a good time" in the 60's etc... nah, so many people got turned off in those eras, particularly by the nonsense that used to go on.

Like Marinello, I am turned off by the use of the term PC. Substitute it by the word "respect" and we might be on to something...

Is there anything I can do to turn you on again!

:devil:

RIP
05-04-2011, 05:12 PM
On this thread it appears that the vocal majority want to see us stop singing songs that bring the club into disrepute and upset minority groups. A minority say they can't see the problem.

I think we can eradicate these songs from Easter Road and for I for one will be happy to join with like-minded souls to build an intiative to knock it on the head before the start of next season

Our procrastination must cease. It is time for action

:flag::cgwa

ancient hibee
05-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Didn't take long after Towell's stupid interview for all this to start in the press did it?What next" Edinburgh Derby worse than Old Firm-sitting in the West Stand at Easter Road was far more frightening than anything I've experienced against Rangers"says Lennon."SPL to crack down on Edinburgh sectarian bile"says Traynor.

Brizo
05-04-2011, 06:20 PM
Recent years imo have seen an increase in racism both individual shouts and songs in the ground and and in the streets and pubs. We by and large self policed the rebs out of ER. Time to shout down the racist stuff. Its difficult when it usually comes out the mouths of drugged up pond life who only ever seem to come out for the big games. In that regard id like to see polis and stewards in the stands with a clear brief to identify and huckle racists. Instead of said polis and stewards being half a mile away down on the touchlines as is the case in the East.

My only concern being that non racist Hibbies in misguided tribalism would turn on polis / stewards who attempt to huckle these morons :devil:

Bishop Hibee
05-04-2011, 06:45 PM
The Rudi Skacel song is unacceptable as it uses the word 'refugee' as an insult. Refugees are people fleeing their country of origin to escape persecution, not leaving through choice. The overwhelming majority come nowhere near Scotland.

I can remember me and a few mates telling a guy selling the NF publication "Bulldog" outside ER in no uncertain terms he was unwelcome and helped by a policeman who shared our view he was punted. Never saw that vile publication again at ER. We all need to be vigilant against racism and confront it both at the football and going about our everyday business.

BEEJ
05-04-2011, 06:55 PM
Anybody who knows anything about Scottish football and culture knows that the OF have cultivated and sustained sectarianism in this country for their own benefit. Sadly, in doing so, they have also infected the whole of Scotland, so none of us, unfortunately, are immune from the repercussions of this tedious crap.

What we're seeing now, (as we generally do), is the Scottish establishment in journalism, politics and academia etc coming together in order to protect the OF and the status quo, by stressing that this is a Scottish-wide problem, rather than anything specifically to do with those vile institutions.

It involves shifting the emphasis of any inquiry to look at the effects of this bigoted culture, rather than its root causes. It's about creating a smokescreen, rather than going to the heart of the problem. The few hundred Hibs fans who sing the Skackel song, and the few thousand Hearts ones who sing about 'being up to their knees in Fenian blood' to 'annoy us' (who cares) or, more likely, arselick the bigots in the west, are merely colluding with this shabby project.

Every non-OF fan will be put under the microscope by the authorities now, in order that they 'prove' sectarianism is a widespread phenomenon and therefore, as is the usual practice, do absolutely nothing about Rangers and Celtic.
:top marks

The article highlighted in the OP is no more than a self-serving publicity stunt from a Celtic-minded academic eager to promote his own credentials and even more keen to deflect the stain of the recent antics of his favourite club by pointing to the national disease.

So he buys a seat in the Edinburgh derby and surprise, surprise hears both sets of fans coming away with chants and songs that don't do the game in Edinburgh any favours. None of it commendable but it has, sadly, become predictable, particularly in the derby fixture.

However, the self-seeking Dr Kelly presents it as something of a fresh discovery and is taking the acclaim of somehow lifting the lid on the problem nationally. In reality, he would have had his narrative for that piece finalised on the Saturday night.

MCameron
05-04-2011, 07:07 PM
Answer me this those of you whohave posted that it's okay or no problem to sing the Skacel song (or use racism/bigotry/homophobia or any other form of intolerenc). Even if your take is " it's 'just a joke to wind someone up"

Would you be happy for Hibs.net to give the club your personal details and your posts on this subject?

You might just find the club's take on this is that it's clearly racism and that you'd be facing a ban from ER.

For johnrebus - yup fair do's you never mentioned the word hate and I wasn't specifically aiming that post solely at you. However your general aspertions that all Hearts fans are ignorant, arrogant and deluded and that's why you don't like them is imo pretty petty and wide of the mark. Like I said we all wear our rose tinted glasses.

MCameron
05-04-2011, 07:19 PM
:top marks

The article highlighted in the OP is no more than a self-serving publicity stunt from a Celtic-minded academic eager to promote his own credentials and even more keen to deflect the stain of the recent antics of his favourite club by pointing to the national disease.

So he buys a seat in the Edinburgh derby and surprise, surprise hears both sets of fans coming away with chants and songs that don't do the game in Edinburgh any favours. None of it commendable but it has, sadly, become predictable, particularly in the derby fixture.

However, the self-seeking Dr Kelly presents it as something of a fresh discovery and is taking the acclaim of somehow lifting the lid on the problem nationally. In reality, he would have had his narrative for that piece finalised on the Saturday night.

I don't see what the article actually has to do with the problem. Who cares what the media think (and I actually find it difficult to believe there is some hidden agenda against the other clubs).

What I know for sure and it seems to be backed up on here is that these songs and comments are being routinely churned out at ER - we don't need the media to tell us that.

I also fail to believe that we should point the finger at the OF for polluting others in Scotland (which is what I took from Dashing Bob's post). I think Scotland still has racist/bigotry/homophobia and other types of intolerance and that can't be pinned on the OF - it's a wider social issue and I don't know what can be done quickly to change opinion. I'm encourages however that intolerance of others is now out in the open and discussed and a gradual move in the right direction is happening - so those who faced abuse in the past in silence are beginning to see a more tolerant society (although football still has a way to go).

NOLA
05-04-2011, 07:41 PM
so is skacel a refugee or not? :devil:

Tricla
05-04-2011, 08:08 PM
Answer me this those of you whohave posted that it's okay or no problem to sing the Skacel song (or use racism/bigotry/homophobia or any other form of intolerenc). Even if your take is " it's 'just a joke to wind someone up"

Would you be happy for Hibs.net to give the club your personal details and your posts on this subject?

You might just find the club's take on this is that it's clearly racism and that you'd be facing a ban from ER.

For johnrebus - yup fair do's you never mentioned the word hate and I wasn't specifically aiming that post solely at you. However your general aspertions that all Hearts fans are ignorant, arrogant and deluded and that's why you don't like them is imo pretty petty and wide of the mark. Like I said we all wear our rose tinted glasses.

Answer me this. How could the club ever have a problem with someone who doesn't care what other people are shouting or singing at the game.

I (and others with a similar opinion) am not racist, homophobic or bigoted just because I choose not to bother myself with what I see as a non subject and one not worth spending any of my life concerning myself with.

IMO the people who hurl things at the pitch/players or invade the pitch are the real problem. The ones who sit/stand where they are supposed to and shout or sing songs aren't so troublesome IMO. I'm a sticks and stones person though.

Also, what you're suggesting is a potential breach of data protection. :rules:

MCameron
05-04-2011, 08:13 PM
Answer me this. How could the club ever have a problem with someone who doesn't care what other people are shouting or singing at the game.

I (and others with a similar opinion) am not racist, homophobic or bigoted just because I choose not to bother myself with what I see as a non subject and one not worth spending any of my life concerning myself with.

IMO the people who hurl things at the pitch/players or invade the pitch are the real problem. The ones who sit/stand where they are supposed to and shout or sing songs aren't so troublesome IMO. I'm a sticks and stones person though.

Also, what you're suggesting is a potential breach of data protection. :rules:

.....you typify the whole social problem in my view. You just don't get it and it's therefore not worth trying to reason with you.

As for the data protection breach - why did you think I asked the question whether people with those opinions would be happy for Hibs.net to give there details (ie giving authority to do so). I suspect there won't be many lining up to do so.....and am sure you'll be among them.

Tricla
05-04-2011, 08:17 PM
so is skacel a refugee or not? :devil:

By definition, no!

However, he is a manky faced, nauseating, vomit inducing, erroneous, cave dwelling, knuckle dragging, pube styling, arrogant, big mouthed, cheating mutant.

I think you'll find this an acceptable attack on him as I haven't used anything that could be construed as racist, sectarian, bigoted or homophobic.

At least I hope not otherwise I'm in for it tight!

Tricla
05-04-2011, 08:21 PM
.....you typify the whole social problem in my view. You just don't get it and it's therefore not worth trying to reason with you.

As for the data protection breach - why did you think I asked the question whether people with those opinions would be happy for Hibs.net to give there details (ie giving authority to do so). I suspect there won't be many lining up to do so.....and am sure you'll be among them.

I typify the whole social problem. :confused:

You can tell all that because I don't care about about bigotry?

You've got me to a T my friend.

MCameron
05-04-2011, 08:24 PM
I typify the whole social problem. :confused:

You can tell all that because I don't care about about bigotry?

You've got me to a T my friend.

so you don't care that inocent people are killed because of it?

So would you be happy for the club to have your details?

Tricla
05-04-2011, 08:34 PM
so you don't care that inocent people are killed because of it?

So would you be happy for the club to have your details?

What I have said is that I choose not to get in a faff about what is sung in the stands at the football. Settle down FFS.

The only place I am ever exposed to bigotry is at the football and I don't let it upset me. I know that songs that are seen as unacceptable come from both the home and away ends at ER. I don't really care. I am there to watch the game and support the team.

Don't be ridiculous in your comments about people being killed. Of course I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Can you show me any of my posts that the club might be interested in like?

Iggy Pope
05-04-2011, 08:35 PM
so you don't care that inocent people are killed because of it?

So would you be happy for the club to have your details?

The club would need his details why exactly?

Because he has an opinion on something or because he does not?

A ban from football for having a view on here? An over reaction surely.

Hurling abuse amongst a mob at sporting events and sharing your opinion (or ambivalence) on forums like this are two very different things.
Take away freedom of speech however and you may find yourself surrounded by Nazis quicker than you imagine my friend.

CropleyWasGod
05-04-2011, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;2773319]

Is there anything I can do to turn you on again!

:devil:

Not in public, please, :greengrin

Tricla
05-04-2011, 09:24 PM
The club would need his details why exactly?

Because he has an opinion on something or because he does not?

A ban from football for having a view on here? An over reaction surely.

Hurling abuse amongst a mob at sporting events and sharing your opinion (or ambivalence) on forums like this are two very different things.
Take away freedom of speech however and you may find yourself surrounded by Nazis quicker than you imagine my friend.

:agree:

MCameron
05-04-2011, 10:14 PM
What I have said is that I choose not to get in a faff about what is sung in the stands at the football. Settle down FFS.

The only place I am ever exposed to bigotry is at the football and I don't let it upset me. I know that songs that are seen as unacceptable come from both the home and away ends at ER. I don't really care. I am there to watch the game and support the team.

Don't be ridiculous in your comments about people being killed. Of course I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Can you show me any of my posts that the club might be interested in like?

So you don't watch or listen to the news and hear the continual reports of death and serious injuries ad a result of bigotry, racism or other types of intolerence?

The comments by Hamilton handling crack me up. Do bigots deserve freedoms of speech? Surely the views of those who stand by and shrug their shoulders at these songs are more in line with Nazi views than those of us willing to challenge the intolerance in our midst? It was only 60 years ago that the villagers near Bergen belsen pretended the problem on their doorstep wasn't their problem! but I guess that's alright - no?

CropleyWasGod
05-04-2011, 10:20 PM
So you don't watch or listen to the news and hear the continual reports of death and serious injuries ad a result of bigotry, racism or other types of intolerence?

The comments by Hamilton handling crack me up. Do bigots deserve freedoms of speech? Surely the views of those who stand by and shrug their shoulders at these songs are more in line with Nazi views than those of us willing to challenge the intolerance in our midst? It was only 60 years ago that the villagers near Bergen belsen pretended the problem on their doorstep wasn't their problem! but I guess that's alright - no?

Unfortunately, they do. By denying them freedom of speech you turn them into martyrs. Look at Thatcher's attempts to deny the IRA the "oxygen of publicity"... it brought more attention and sympathy to the terrorist apologists than would have been the case otherwise.

Bigots should be given a platform... and then metaphorically shot down by reason and public opinion. I don't agree with Tricla's views in this thread, but he has the right to air them, and by doing so should expect to have them challenged, not censored.

Kato
05-04-2011, 10:49 PM
Unfortunately, they do. By denying them freedom of speech you turn them into martyrs. Look at Thatcher's attempts to deny the IRA the "oxygen of publicity"... it brought more attention and sympathy to the terrorist apologists than would have been the case otherwise.

Bigots should be given a platform... and then metaphorically shot down by reason and public opinion. I don't agree with Tricla's views in this thread, but he has the right to air them, and by doing so should expect to have them challenged, not censored.

Does freedom of speech stretch to abusive songs in football grounds?

Jack
06-04-2011, 08:15 AM
The club would need his details why exactly?

Because he has an opinion on something or because he does not?

A ban from football for having a view on here? An over reaction surely.

Hurling abuse amongst a mob at sporting events and sharing your opinion (or ambivalence) on forums like this are two very different things.
Take away freedom of speech however and you may find yourself surrounded by Nazis quicker than you imagine my friend.

It was only after WWII (1948) that there were officially any universal human rights when they were brought in by the UN – even they said that with these rights come responsiblities - something too many seem to forget / ignore as they vent their bile.

What happens when people exercise freedom of speech without any thought for the rights of others? :confused:

Freedom of speech can't override the rights for another. Defaming another person, for example, through the use of lies is illegal; slanderous or libellous. Similarly anyone making racists or bigoted remarks, which are considered to be illegal, from the stands should be dealt with, that is not within their right of freedom of speech.

Some people feel justified to do anything they want at a football match, but what they are doing is illegal. Some claim to practice their right of free speech when what they're really doing is exploiting the fact they are hiding behind or as part of a mob – where they think they are unlikely to be identified. Cowards.


The point is that in order to maintain everyone’s rights, everyone must exercise responsibility.

There must be a balance between one's own rights and the rights of others.

MCameron
06-04-2011, 08:27 AM
Unfortunately, they do. By denying them freedom of speech you turn them into martyrs. Look at Thatcher's attempts to deny the IRA the "oxygen of publicity"... it brought more attention and sympathy to the terrorist apologists than would have been the case otherwise.

Bigots should be given a platform... and then metaphorically shot down by reason and public opinion. I don't agree with Tricla's views in this thread, but he has the right to air them, and by doing so should expect to have them challenged, not censored.

I don't disagree that Tricla has the right to air his views on the subject on here - that was never in question.

My issue is that the club have a policy (that I wholeheartedly agree with) that does not tolerate intolerance on grounds of race, religion, sexual orientation against others. There are 'supporters' of our club blatantly flaunting a stance taken by our club and then trying to argue here that it's no biggy the songs are just meant as a wind up.

I guess my point about the people with those views being happy to let the club know was kind of linked to right to freedom of speech:

If you take away the security of being able to hide behind a .net user name and if they truly beleive there's nothing wrong with those songs and believe they're not showing these prejudices then why don't they have the confidence to let the club know (freedom of speech and all that) - why don't the challenge back so they can sing the songs?

See what the clubs view is on it (you know that club we are all supposed to 'support' who have made thier views clear) - I'm pretty sure I know what they'd say.

MCameron
06-04-2011, 08:31 AM
It was only after WWII (1948) that there were officially any universal human rights when they were brought in by the UN – even they said that with these rights come responsiblities - something too many seem to forget / ignore as they vent their bile.

What happens when people exercise freedom of speech without any thought for the rights of others? :confused:

Freedom of speech can't override the rights for another. Defaming another person, for example, through the use of lies is illegal; slanderous or libellous. Similarly anyone making racists or bigoted remarks, which are considered to be illegal, from the stands should be dealt with, that is not within their right of freedom of speech.

Some people feel justified to do anything they want at a football match, but what they are doing is illegal. Some claim to practice their right of free speech when what they're really doing is exploiting the fact they are hiding behind or as part of a mob – where they think they are unlikely to be identified. Cowards.


The point is that in order to maintain everyone’s rights, everyone must exercise responsibility.

There must be a balance between one's own rights and the rights of others.


10/10 Jack.

What are the views of Hibs 12th Man on this topic? Could there be an initiative as part of that group to do something meaningful to stamp this out? It sounds as if collectively there is a strong group against this - we are in the majority - we could have the influence to crack this?

Tricla
06-04-2011, 08:32 AM
This thread has gotten way too deep and I think some people are picking others up wrong which is normal for forums.

CropleyWasGod
06-04-2011, 08:51 AM
Does freedom of speech stretch to abusive songs in football grounds?

I would say not.... as has been pointed out, Hibs have rules in place to challenge them, backed up by law. As they should. The point I was making was more to do with opinions being aired in this forum.

MCameron
06-04-2011, 09:02 AM
This thread has gotten way too deep and I think some people are picking others up wrong which is normal for forums.

I think you're right it is easy to pick people up wrong.

For me it seems easy - if the question is 'is the skacel song racist, the 'all hibees are gay' song homophobic or the 'up to our knees in......' bigoted?

The answer is Yes and that should not be tolerated by others just because it doesn't directly affect them (as my admittedly severe Bergen Belsen example was trying to highlight).

You appeared to be saying that you didn't think it was racist (or have I picked that up wrong) and if I have I apologise but it seemed you were advocating that you weren't bothered by it as it didn't affect you. Is that right. The reason it's getting deep is that it is a serious topic - maybe everyone needs to start getting serious about it for it to change?

NOLA
06-04-2011, 09:14 AM
By definition, no!

However, he is a manky faced, nauseating, vomit inducing, erroneous, cave dwelling, knuckle dragging, pube styling, arrogant, big mouthed, cheating mutant.

I think you'll find this an acceptable attack on him as I haven't used anything that could be construed as racist, sectarian, bigoted or homophobic.

At least I hope not otherwise I'm in for it tight!

thanks bud, dont know if i can get all those words into a song though:hmmm:

Phil D. Rolls
06-04-2011, 10:17 AM
[QUOTE=Filled Rolls;2773264]

No offence taken.

I wasn't defending it though. I was merely pointing out the definition of the word 'refugee'.

I couldn't care what is sung in the away end or the home end.

Sticks and stones as far as I'm concerned.

This 'problem' of bigotry, racism, sectarianism etc is made all the worse by how much people get their knickers in a twist about it.

It happened on the terraces all the way through the 60's, 70's and 80's and virtually nobody cared. Everyone went to the game and had a good time according to the stories I am told by my Dad and older Hibbys.

Then the world got PC and all of a sudden everyone is offended by everything.

That's one way of looking at it. I have to say that the chants in that period were nothing like as offensive as the ones we hear now.

The world didn't suddenly get PC though, as there were always people who would stand up against bullying, racism etc It's just that for the slowest learners in our society it took a while for them to catch on, and the worst offenders had to have it explained to them in rules that were straightforward, that decent people don't agree with these things.

I know you say the thread is getting too deep, and you have already said that if it doesn't bother you then it isn't an issue. For (IMO) the majority of people it is an issue, and that's why it is being discussed in great depth.


[QUOTE=Tricla;2773309]

You mean people on the receiving end of it decided to stand up against it? Well, damn them for doing so... and shoot the rest of us for actually supporting them.

As for your quote about "everyone having a good time" in the 60's etc... nah, so many people got turned off in those eras, particularly by the nonsense that used to go on.

Like Marinello, I am turned off by the use of the term PC. Substitute it by the word "respect" and we might be on to something...

Spot on, society moved on, but some people think that football hasn't. Is it coincidence that attendances are up on those of the 60s and 70s, when the game went into decline?


On this thread it appears that the vocal majority want to see us stop singing songs that bring the club into disrepute and upset minority groups. A minority say they can't see the problem.

I think we can eradicate these songs from Easter Road and for I for one will be happy to join with like-minded souls to build an intiative to knock it on the head before the start of next season

Our procrastination must cease. It is time for action

:flag::cgwa

It's in the club's court, and if no-one there is aware of concerns then I am surprised. There is no point in paying lip service to anti racism policies, they need to make a statement.



10/10 Jack.

What are the views of Hibs 12th Man on this topic? Could there be an initiative as part of that group to do something meaningful to stamp this out? It sounds as if collectively there is a strong group against this - we are in the majority - we could have the influence to crack this?

I think we should be told. Although, I wonder if part of the attraction for this vile behaviour is some kind of counter culture to the Americanisation of football, with these cheerleaders groups.

Hibs12thMan
06-04-2011, 10:17 AM
10/10 Jack.

What are the views of Hibs 12th Man on this topic? Could there be an initiative as part of that group to do something meaningful to stamp this out? It sounds as if collectively there is a strong group against this - we are in the majority - we could have the influence to crack this?

There is no reason why the Hibs 12th Man shouldn’t seek to use what influence it has. The Hibs 12th Man, as well as Hibernian Football Club and the majority of fans must fully embrace a zero tolerance culture. We must make it easier to help the Club identify those who set out to spoil the day for the majority of the support, or bring our Club into disrepute, whether that is by being a racist; a bigot or a tosser of cash or lighters. We all must play our part and not, as usually happens, leave it for someone else to do.

If you and others think that the Hibs 12th Man can help achieve that all the better. The Hibs 12th Man would be only too willing to act as a go between with the Club if individuals felt for any reason they could not. It would then be upto the Club to take the appropriate action.

You might be interested to know that to set up the Hibs 12th Man group for the things we wanted to do we needed a bank account, for that we needed a constitution which we mostly stole from others :greengrin. That was apart from the eligibility for membership which probably goes further than most and was written with the help of one of the foremost experts on equality in Scotland. It says;

Eligibility for membership
All supporters and fans of Hibernian FC are eligible for full membership of the Hibs 12th Man. No person shall be denied membership of the Hibs 12th Man on the grounds of race, ethnicity, age, disability, gender, occupation, sexual orientation, religion, political or other beliefs.

We want the Hibs 12th Man to be all inclusive, we want anyone and everyone [Hibs] to enjoy their visit to Easter Road.

Hibs12thMan
06-04-2011, 10:35 AM
I think we should be told. Although, I wonder if part of the attraction for this vile behaviour is some kind of counter culture to the Americanisation of football, with these cheerleaders groups.

FR you're more than welcome to wear a cheerleader outfit and join the fun if you want – I don’t think I have the legs!!! :faf:

One of the things the Hibs 12th Man is doing is scouring the world for ideas to bring to Easter Road to make it a great place, a fun place, to be on matchdays – some will work, some wont. Some will be from the States most, in the future will probably come from Europe. Surprisingly, maybe, we have just had a wee look to India for ideas.

All suggestions you have will be gratefully received :agree:

dangermouse
06-04-2011, 10:57 AM
It was only after WWII (1948) that there were officially any universal human rights when they were brought in by the UN – even they said that with these rights come responsiblities - something too many seem to forget / ignore as they vent their bile.

What happens when people exercise freedom of speech without any thought for the rights of others? :confused:

Freedom of speech can't override the rights for another. Defaming another person, for example, through the use of lies is illegal; slanderous or libellous. Similarly anyone making racists or bigoted remarks, which are considered to be illegal, from the stands should be dealt with, that is not within their right of freedom of speech.

Some people feel justified to do anything they want at a football match, but what they are doing is illegal. Some claim to practice their right of free speech when what they're really doing is exploiting the fact they are hiding behind or as part of a mob – where they think they are unlikely to be identified. Cowards.


The point is that in order to maintain everyone’s rights, everyone must exercise responsibility.

There must be a balance between one's own rights and the rights of others.



10/10 Jack.

What are the views of Hibs 12th Man on this topic? Could there be an initiative as part of that group to do something meaningful to stamp this out? It sounds as if collectively there is a strong group against this - we are in the majority - we could have the influence to crack this?

Well worth investigating. My 13 year old son stood with the singing section against Bohemians and had a whale of a time. I wouldn't want him being there when any offensive songs are being sung as he would be likely to join in without really knowing what he was singing about. As a responsible parent, I see no need for him to learn or sing bigoted, homophobic or racist songs. Can we not stick to singing songs that glorify Hibs, the team we all love and support?

Phil D. Rolls
06-04-2011, 11:03 AM
FR you're more than welcome to wear a cheerleader outfit and join the fun if you want – I don’t think I have the legs!!! :faf:

One of the things the Hibs 12th Man is doing is scouring the world for ideas to bring to Easter Road to make it a great place, a fun place, to be on matchdays – some will work, some wont. Some will be from the States most, in the future will probably come from Europe. Surprisingly, maybe, we have just had a wee look to India for ideas.

All suggestions you have will be gratefully received :agree:

I'm not slagging you guys off (any more), I'm really trying to work out what the attraction is for some people to go against the grain of what the majority of others agree is right.

I'm an old fart, but I accept that the football is different from what it used to be. We can't live in the past.

So keep coming dressed up in chicken suits and waving banners with "Go Hibees", and I'll keep mumbling into my Bovril. :greengrin

Glad to hear you are anti racism though, and maybe you can work with the club to stamp this nonsense out.

Phil MaGlass
06-04-2011, 11:05 AM
He's an academic. I can guarantee you that he's not saying what he's saying in an attempt to make Rangers or Celtic look better, irrespective of who, if anyone, he actually supports.

He's right too.

ITS ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO DEFLECT WHATS BEEN COMING OUT OF GLASGOW

CANT YOU SEE THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THERES BEEN AROUND 3 OR FOUR STORIES ON BIGOTRY (surrounding our two clubs) AND HOW IT CONVENIENTLY IS NOT ALL COMING FROM THE OF.
Yes, both Hibs and hertz know we have ONE OR TWO idiots but its a bleedin SMOKESCREEN. You cannot compare us to the OF, you just cant.

ScottB
06-04-2011, 11:36 AM
Simple fact is we can't keep sweeping this kind of crap under the carpet and the sooner we drop the 'OF are worse than us so it's ok' mentality the better.

The Skacel song is embarassing and it's racist, simple as. The Edinburgh song is definitely racist, anyone who says otherwise is just plain stupid.

I was in town on Sunday night and was treated to a group of Hearts fans singing a little ditty that went like this: 'If you cannae do the bouncy you're a taig' apparently they got this idea from Rangers. Unfortunately any attempt to demonise them looks pretty hypocritical when you have morons in your own support singing about refugees, pakis, jews and whatever else.

Words and phrases like fenian *******, taig, paki etc etc just aren't acceptable. This isn't 'PC gone mad' (the most overused and misused phrase in the English language) it's just a fact. The sooner some muppets drag themselves out of the dark ages and realise it's not just banter the better for all concerned IMO.

Fully agree. The Skackel song is ****ing pathetic, not least because a fair number of our own team would come under this apparent bracket. Nearly hooked someone for constantly singing it at a party I was at, apparently he didn't get that it was inappropriate in a room with a number of foreigners. Idiot.

We need to leave that crap behind, if Hearts are happy singing their bile then hopefully the authorities will eventually grow a pair and challenge them on it, let's make sure it doesn't happen to us.

Phil D. Rolls
06-04-2011, 11:40 AM
ITS ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO DEFLECT WHATS BEEN COMING OUT OF GLASGOW

CANT YOU SEE THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THERES BEEN AROUND 3 OR FOUR STORIES ON BIGOTRY (surrounding our two clubs) AND HOW IT CONVENIENTLY IS NOT ALL COMING FROM THE OF.
Yes, both Hibs and hertz know we have ONE OR TWO idiots but its a bleedin SMOKESCREEN. You cannot compare us to the OF, you just cant.

Good post. The minute that pair got whipped in by the Government it was inevitable that the spotlight would fall on Hibs and Hearts next. That's what made Towell's comments so unfortunate.

There is also the factor that some people seem to have a vested interest in there being a sectarian problem throughout Scotland. This guy makes his living studying sectarianism and if it doesn't exist, he doesn't get paid.

No doubt he will be able to highlight the sectarian aspects of the Dundee derby next, and will show up at the last Pars v Raith Rovers game of the season, and relate any unrest to religious differences between Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline.

I'm just glad Hibs have reclaimed their Irishness, as it seems we had lost it and weren't aware of it. The man is nothing more than a freeloader.

Beefster
06-04-2011, 11:46 AM
ITS ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO DEFLECT WHATS BEEN COMING OUT OF GLASGOW

CANT YOU SEE THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THERES BEEN AROUND 3 OR FOUR STORIES ON BIGOTRY (surrounding our two clubs) AND HOW IT CONVENIENTLY IS NOT ALL COMING FROM THE OF.
Yes, both Hibs and hertz know we have ONE OR TWO idiots but its a bleedin SMOKESCREEN. You cannot compare us to the OF, you just cant.

Richie Towell caused most of the stories. Presumably he's a major part of this conspiracy?

Andy74
06-04-2011, 12:59 PM
I'm not slagging you guys off (any more), I'm really trying to work out what the attraction is for some people to go against the grain of what the majority of others agree is right.

I'm an old fart, but I accept that the football is different from what it used to be. We can't live in the past.

So keep coming dressed up in chicken suits and waving banners with "Go Hibees", and I'll keep mumbling into my Bovril. :greengrin

Glad to hear you are anti racism though, and maybe you can work with the club to stamp this nonsense out.

Throughout this thread you are asserting you are right.

I don't think you are, hence the 'attraction' in saying so.

I'm not really bothered if the majority seem to think the same thing, I still think they are interpreting it wrongly.

For what it's worth I wouldn't sign the Skacel song because if other people see it as wrong then it is a bit daft to give cause for grief.

Phil D. Rolls
06-04-2011, 01:16 PM
Throughout this thread you are asserting you are right.

I don't think you are, hence the 'attraction' in saying so.

I'm not really bothered if the majority seem to think the same thing, I still think they are interpreting it wrongly.

For what it's worth I wouldn't sign the Skacel song because if other people see it as wrong then it is a bit daft to give cause for grief.

Fair point, if only other people could see the reasoning behind setting aside their own beliefs so as not to offend other people.

Dashing Bob S
06-04-2011, 02:29 PM
ITS ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO DEFLECT WHATS BEEN COMING OUT OF GLASGOW

CANT YOU SEE THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THERES BEEN AROUND 3 OR FOUR STORIES ON BIGOTRY (surrounding our two clubs) AND HOW IT CONVENIENTLY IS NOT ALL COMING FROM THE OF.
Yes, both Hibs and hertz know we have ONE OR TWO idiots but its a bleedin SMOKESCREEN. You cannot compare us to the OF, you just cant.

Exactly. One of the tactics is to look at the number of arrests in and around the ground. If Hibs and Hearts have more than than the mini-police state they set up around Ibrox and Parkhead on derby days, then it 'shows' the 'problem' is at least 'as bad' as Glasgow.

The reality is that everyone who attends football has known for over twenty years that most of the aggro relating to any game takes place away from the ground. The Nil By Mouth charity have long-studied the increased rates of murders and violent assaults in West Central Scotland that take place on the weekend of an OF derby. There are none so blind that don't want to see, and none that don't want to see more than lackey 'social scientists' with a vested interest in this nonsense continuing. I wish those people woukd get proper jobs.

ginger_rice
06-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Can we not stick to singing songs that glorify Hibs, the team we all love and support?

:top marks

Was thinking along the same lines, if we had a repertoire of cracking Hibs songs then there would be no need for the Skacel song etc.

Big problem is look at some of the songs we sing, "we hate Jam tarts and we hate Dundee, we will fight wherever we may be, we are the Mental HFC

FFS we've got the Proclaimers and Fish in our support surely they could come up with something even if they use a nom de plume, to save record sales!

ancient hibee
06-04-2011, 06:00 PM
I would suggest---The Window Sash and The Silly Boys.

Iggy Pope
06-04-2011, 08:26 PM
So you don't watch or listen to the news and hear the continual reports of death and serious injuries ad a result of bigotry, racism or other types of intolerence?

The comments by Hamilton handling crack me up. Do bigots deserve freedoms of speech? Surely the views of those who stand by and shrug their shoulders at these songs are more in line with Nazi views than those of us willing to challenge the intolerance in our midst? It was only 60 years ago that the villagers near Bergen belsen pretended the problem on their doorstep wasn't their problem! but I guess that's alright - no?

Why would that be?
Were there no intolerance then you would have nothing to get on your righteous soapbox about.
I fought the punk rock wars, joined the ANL, donated to RAR and marched for the Miners. I'm leftist believe me and some of the Daily Express readerpage rantings on here get on my tattie. I know though, that there is ALWAYS an alternate viewpoint.
And this thread really needs some perspective before Tricla gets the blame for the Holocaust.
I share his opinion and the Admins can pass what details they have on me on to the club if they truly believe that me not giving a toss about a few juvenile songs is somehow their business, or indeed , constitutes a wrongdoing.

I'll see them in court.


It was only after WWII (1948) that there were officially any universal human rights when they were brought in by the UN – even they said that with these rights come responsiblities - something too many seem to forget / ignore as they vent their bile.

What happens when people exercise freedom of speech without any thought for the rights of others? :confused:

Freedom of speech can't override the rights for another. Defaming another person, for example, through the use of lies is illegal; slanderous or libellous. Similarly anyone making racists or bigoted remarks, which are considered to be illegal, from the stands should be dealt with, that is not within their right of freedom of speech.

Some people feel justified to do anything they want at a football match, but what they are doing is illegal. Some claim to practice their right of free speech when what they're really doing is exploiting the fact they are hiding behind or as part of a mob – where they think they are unlikely to be identified. Cowards.


The point is that in order to maintain everyone’s rights, everyone must exercise responsibility.

There must be a balance between one's own rights and the rights of others.


Jack. I don't see anyone venting bile or being cowardly about anything on this thread.
I use my rights responsibly. I don't care much for this turgid 'refugee' nonsense levelled at Skacel, but then I don't care much for him either.

Tricla
06-04-2011, 08:44 PM
Why would that be?
Were there no intolerance then you would have nothing to get on your righteous soapbox about.
I fought the punk rock wars, joined the ANL, donated to RAR and marched for the Miners. I'm leftist believe me and some of the Daily Express readerpage rantings on here get on my tattie. I know though, that there is ALWAYS an alternate viewpoint.
And this thread really needs some perspective before Tricla gets the blame for the Holocaust.
I share his opinion and the Admins can pass what details they have on me on to the club if they truly believe that me not giving a toss about a few juvenile songs is somehow their business, or indeed , constitutes a wrongdoing.

I'll see them in court.



Jack. I don't see anyone venting bile or being cowardly about anything on this thread.
I use my rights responsibly. I don't care much for this turgid 'refugee' nonsense levelled at Skacel, but then I don't care much for him either.

:top marks

No need for peeps to get their frillys in such a knot IMO.

HNA12
06-04-2011, 08:50 PM
Why would that be?
Were there no intolerance then you would have nothing to get on your righteous soapbox about.
I fought the punk rock wars, joined the ANL, donated to RAR and marched for the Miners. I'm leftist believe me and some of the Daily Express readerpage rantings on here get on my tattie. I know though, that there is ALWAYS an alternate viewpoint.
And this thread really needs some perspective before Tricla gets the blame for the Holocaust.
I share his opinion and the Admins can pass what details they have on me on to the club if they truly believe that me not giving a toss about a few juvenile songs is somehow their business, or indeed , constitutes a wrongdoing.

I'll see them in court.



.

Just to clarify before this becomes FACT. :greengrin
Admin on this site have NEVER suggested nor planned to pass any personal details of any member here to the club or anybody else for that matter. This is a place for debate, as long as forum rules are not broken all opinions are welcome.

Tricla
06-04-2011, 08:52 PM
Just to clarify before this becomes FACT. :greengrin
Admin on this site have NEVER suggested nor planned to pass any personal details of any member here to the club or anybody else for that matter. This is a place for debate, as long as forum rules are not broken all opinions are welcome.

And are you happy that this is the case on this thread?

Iggy Pope
06-04-2011, 08:56 PM
Just to clarify before this becomes FACT. :greengrin
Admin on this site have NEVER suggested nor planned to pass any personal details of any member here to the club or anybody else for that matter. This is a place for debate, as long as forum rules are not broken all opinions are welcome.

I'm with that as I see no breaking of rules and certainly nothing to get in a twist about on any of the posts published here apart from a few titanic over-reactions....nothing new there though.

Jack
06-04-2011, 09:08 PM
Jack. I don't see anyone venting bile or being cowardly about anything on this thread.
I use my rights responsibly. I don't care much for this turgid 'refugee' nonsense levelled at Skacel, but then I don't care much for him either.

My point was not about this thread more about what happened on Sunday and even more so about certain other clubs when they play us or even worse each other. Pleased to clear any misunderstanding :-)
.
As for him he's just another player who doesn't play for Hibs.
.
As for the song it is one of those that brings your/our/my Club into disrepute. If we are to move on as a Club and support we must ALL act together against it and the others.

HNA12
06-04-2011, 09:10 PM
And are you happy that this is the case on this thread?

If you think they have been broken please help us out by reporting the relevant posts. Thanks.

JohnScott
06-04-2011, 10:20 PM
Simple fact is we can't keep sweeping this kind of crap under the carpet and the sooner we drop the 'OF are worse than us so it's ok' mentality the better.

The Skacel song is embarassing and it's racist, simple as. The Edinburgh song is definitely racist, anyone who says otherwise is just plain stupid.

I was in town on Sunday night and was treated to a group of Hearts fans singing a little ditty that went like this: 'If you cannae do the bouncy you're a taig' apparently they got this idea from Rangers. Unfortunately any attempt to demonise them looks pretty hypocritical when you have morons in your own support singing about refugees, pakis, jews and whatever else.

Words and phrases like fenian *******, taig, paki etc etc just aren't acceptable. This isn't 'PC gone mad' (the most overused and misused phrase in the English language) it's just a fact. The sooner some muppets drag themselves out of the dark ages and realise it's not just banter the better for all concerned IMO.

I for one am deeply offended by your use of the word "muppet" to describe a minority group of our support. Blatantly bigoted on your part. I've got this picture of you sitting in the west-stand tut tutting at all those nasty foul-mouthed chaps around you.

Mr Kelly: "an expert in sport and sectarianism at Edinburgh University". Not I note, an expert in sectarianism in sport at Edinburgh University. His piece is a total over-reaction to what was generally a fantastic atmosphere. I'm a catholic and I'm yet to be wound up by the Bears and Jambo's singing about a battle 300 odd years ago. I frankly couldn't care less. Well done to the East Stand, at least they support the bloody team. (This is directed of course to those who didn't feel the need to throw missiles!) From my seat in the north you looked awesome!

Phil D. Rolls
07-04-2011, 08:14 AM
As always, those who defend this racist song do so on the premise that they are not offended by it. They fail to acknowledge the fact that other people, such as immigrants, might not share their laid back approach to racism,

That's the crux of whether a thing is offensive. Not how the person passing the remark or singing the song feels about it, but whether the people it is aimed at are offended.

50 years ago it was considered good craic to slag off immigrants by calling them Pakis, or Chinks or N"ggers. Those people shrugged it off, because they had families to support and didn't have the time to fight back.

Their children grew up seeing this, and with the advantage of the economic freedom that their parents' sacrifices bought, started to fight back. The racism of the 60s sewed the seeds of fundamentalism in the 21st Century.

Cause and effect, it's worth considering what message is sent out by this seemingly harmless ditty. Anyway, if the club is serious about stamping oiut racism, this won't be a matter for debate.

Of course, if there was a groundswell of opinion from minority groups saying this is over reaction, I'd happily go along with it. The last thing we want to do is make life more difficult for them by over reaction.

IMO, it is racist and anyone who seeks to defend it is a fool. It's for the supporters and club to work out where they stand on it. We really need a better quality of debate from those that are defending it, because most of what has come out just hasn't been thought through.

Tricla
07-04-2011, 08:24 AM
If you think they have been broken please help us out by reporting the relevant posts. Thanks.

Nothing to report from me. I don't feel anyone has done anything other than share their opinion on this thread. It was another poster who thought some were being racist or bigoted. I was just wondering what the admins thought.

I assume you guys will have seen most of the posts and would have deleted anything you found inappropriate or would have accosted the perpetrator if you thought it necessary.

Phil D. Rolls
07-04-2011, 09:06 AM
Nothing to report from me. I don't feel anyone has done anything other than share their opinion on this thread. It was another poster who thought some were being racist or bigoted. I was just wondering what the admins thought.

I assume you guys will have seen most of the posts and would have deleted anything you found inappropriate or would have accosted the perpetrator if you thought it necessary.

:confused:

The thread's about racism and bigotry.

Tricla
07-04-2011, 09:24 AM
:confused:

The thread's about racism and bigotry.

I noticed that but thanks for the reminder.

What I meant is that I don't feel anyone has been particularly racist or bigoted in what they have posted albeit the subject is racism and bigotry. It's very easy to cross a line in some peoples eyes by having an opinion one way or the other. That's the nature of opinions, especially with a touchy subject such as this.

I for one have been branded racist and bigoted for not giving a toss about what is sung at the football and that I support racist people and bigots by not soap boxing against them. :confused:

Bear in mind that I don't partake in songs involving bigotry or racism and that if you were to ask any of my friends or family they'd tell you that I am not racist or bigoted. I'm not religious in any way and don't care if your from Nigeria or Niddrie. Some posters are quite prepared to make up their minds without knowing people which I understand as we cant see each other. They should also take a second to consider that the negative opinion they have formed about another poster may not be accurate due to this and maybe take a wee step back.

What I do feel is that the soap box brigade on this thread are quite prepared to consider anyone a bigot who doesn't share their exact view. That much is obvious.

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Turn the clock back to Christmas day 1875, Hibs v Hearts on the East Meadows, the Hearts support are in full voice:

"Michael Whelahan's a f******* refugee"

It was exactly this type of intolerance against the Irish immigrants which led to the founding of Hibernian (and unfortunately to the great unwashed carbon copy in Glasgow), but there agin perhaps some of our younger supporters don't "know their history" or maybe even don't care.

As many posters have pointed out many songs at football are sung to provoke a reaction, the Skacel song certainly does, personally I find it an odious little ditty as is the Edinburgh song, we Hibs supporters can do better, anyone remember the "two Andy Gorams" song. Goram told me that that song put him off his game more because he couldn't stop laughing about it!

Andy74
07-04-2011, 10:14 AM
Turn the clock back to Christmas day 1875, Hibs v Hearts on the East Meadows, the Hearts support are in full voice:

"Michael Whelahan's a f******* refugee"

It was exactly this type of intolerance against the Irish immigrants which led to the founding of Hibernian (and unfortunately to the great unwashed carbon copy in Glasgow), but there agin perhaps some of our younger supporters don't "know their history" or maybe even don't care.

As many posters have pointed out many songs at football are sung to provoke a reaction, the Skacel song certainly does, personally I find it an odious little ditty as is the Edinburgh song, we Hibs supporters can do better, anyone remember the "two Andy Gorams" song. Goram told me that that song put him off his game more because he couldn't stop laughing about it!

Aye, but Whelehan probably could have been thought of as some sort of refugee and then the intention would have been based around that.

The two Andy Gorams song suggests there is something wrong with being fat. A bit offensive to probably more than half the crowd.

Part/Time Supporter
07-04-2011, 10:17 AM
The Goram song was to do with him being diagnosed schizophrenic.

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 10:18 AM
The two Andy Gorams song suggests there is something wrong with being fat. A bit offensive to probably more than half the crowd.

He'd come out in the papers a few days before saying he was suffering from schizophrenia or some such thing...aye I know what's the difference between that and a song about immigrants, this one however was topical, was funny, and was only used the once, it didn't drag on for year after year

Andy74
07-04-2011, 10:19 AM
IMO, it is racist and anyone who seeks to defend it is a fool. .

Great argument that.

You are still not really grasping some of the arguments about this and suggesting anyone who has a different viewpoint is a fool.

I thought you were concenred about people being offended? By being ignorant and offensive? Bizarre.

Andy74
07-04-2011, 10:21 AM
He'd come out in the papers a few days before saying he was suffering from schizophrenia or some such thing...aye I know what's the difference between that and a song about immigrants, this one however was topical, was funny, and was only used the once, it didn't drag on for year after year

Mental illness, allright, that makes it better then!

Sorry, but people aren't half getting a bit mixed up about what to be offended about here! Again, the whole point was Skacel wasn't an immigrant so this direct abuse of someone with mental illness is, in the scheme of things, far, far worse!

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 10:34 AM
Mental illness, allright, that makes it better then!

Sorry, but people aren't half getting a bit mixed up about what to be offended about here! Again, the whole point was Skacel wasn't an immigrant so this direct abuse of someone with mental illness is, in the scheme of things, far, far worse!

I did acknowledge that in my post. perhaps I didn't word it very well:

The point being the recipient Andy Goram, actually found it funny, and as such when does a song become offensive? As a song against Andy Goram it was funny, if it was a song against people with mental illness in general then it's offensive, yes it's a fine line.

The humour intended in the Andy Goram song was obvious at the time, there wasn't even any swearing in it, is there any humour in the Skacel song?

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 11:17 AM
I'm a catholic and I'm yet to be wound up by the Bears and Jambo's singing about a battle 300 odd years ago. I frankly couldn't care less.

Don't you think though that the people who get really wound up about this are in themselves bigots, one side sings a certain sectarian song and the other side react in horror and self righteous indignation...and please note here I'm not referring those of you who think that songs about the Boyne or a bunch of gangsters from the Falls have a place in modern Scotland, that's a different argument....IMHO reacting to these songs in such a way only encourages those who sing them.

Beefster
07-04-2011, 11:33 AM
I noticed that but thanks for the reminder.

What I meant is that I don't feel anyone has been particularly racist or bigoted in what they have posted albeit the subject is racism and bigotry. It's very easy to cross a line in some peoples eyes by having an opinion one way or the other. That's the nature of opinions, especially with a touchy subject such as this.

I for one have been branded racist and bigoted for not giving a toss about what is sung at the football and that I support racist people and bigots by not soap boxing against them. :confused:

Bear in mind that I don't partake in songs involving bigotry or racism and that if you were to ask any of my friends or family they'd tell you that I am not racist or bigoted. I'm not religious in any way and don't care if your from Nigeria or Niddrie. Some posters are quite prepared to make up their minds without knowing people which I understand as we cant see each other. They should also take a second to consider that the negative opinion they have formed about another poster may not be accurate due to this and maybe take a wee step back.

What I do feel is that the soap box brigade on this thread are quite prepared to consider anyone a bigot who doesn't share their exact view. That much is obvious.

You moan about being unfairly generalised and then, apart from using the PC-like 'Soap box brigade', go on to generalise about everyone who disagrees with you.

MCameron
07-04-2011, 11:42 AM
As the poster of the original question "whether people would be happy for their details to be passed to the club" which the admins mention above. I want to clarify my intention.

I was not advocating that they did this off their own back. My point was really about whether anyone who thought it was ok to sing these songs would be happy to admit that to the club. Perhaps my wording made this unclear.

I also want to make it clear (again) that if Tricla is saying he doesn't sign these songs nor agree with them that I take his word for that. I don't have to agree with his views I agree everyone should be able to air their views on forums such as this.

However imo Tricla you are failing to understand the meaning of intolerance. You said about the Skacel son - "It cannot be compared to the bile that is spouted by Hertz and the ugly two" - why not - I think it can. Even if Scakel couldn't give a flying **** about it the infeernces in the song affect 'others' and that is the important bit for me.

Likewise you said "In regards the Sodje song, that's a bit of banter.' No it's using racial stereo types that again may offend others.

You ended that post saying "honestly, people are far, far too easily offended these days". I'd counter that by saying "Good, but not enough people yet to really stamp this crap out".

Does anyone really think singing a song at a player will really affect their game? If I was subjected to abuse I'm damn sure I'd put in a shift to put one over on the pr1cks singing it. Perhaps if we all concentrated on raising the atmosphere in a positive manner for our team we'd lift their levels of performance and we'd all go happy at 4:45 (or 3:30 or 9:15 or whatever other time Sky determine our games will finish!)

Joe Baker II
07-04-2011, 11:49 AM
[QUOTE=ginger_rice;2774794]Don't you think though that the people who get really wound up about this are in themselves bigots, one side sings a certain sectarian song and the other side react in horror and self righteous indignation...and QUOTE]

You are spot on, those who claim to be offended are the real bigots and that is who action should be taken against.

Do not like the Skacel song (certainly more worth getting angry about Derry's Walls and The Sash as some morons do) but is being a refugee actually insulting?

MCameron
07-04-2011, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE=ginger_rice;2774794]Don't you think though that the people who get really wound up about this are in themselves bigots, one side sings a certain sectarian song and the other side react in horror and self righteous indignation...and QUOTE]

You are spot on, those who claim to be offended are the real bigots and that is who action should be taken against.

Do not like the Skacel song (certainly more worth getting angry about Derry's Walls and The Sash as some morons do) but is being a refugee actually insulting?

It's not '......is a refugee' though is it - it's '.....is a ****ing refugee'. Any part of that strike you as showing intolerance towards any group?

Andy74
07-04-2011, 12:00 PM
I did acknowledge that in my post. perhaps I didn't word it very well:

The point being the recipient Andy Goram, actually found it funny, and as such when does a song become offensive? As a song against Andy Goram it was funny, if it was a song against people with mental illness in general then it's offensive, yes it's a fine line.

The humour intended in the Andy Goram song was obvious at the time, there wasn't even any swearing in it, is there any humour in the Skacel song?

The point being made elsewhere here sssems to be that the recipient doesn't matter, the fact is made fun of mental illness which people with mental illness would be offended about.

In that way it's no different to the refugee thing.

In fact, it is worse, it is the guys mental illness which was being laughed at directly.

The refugee thing wasn't aimed at a refugee nor was it making any particular comment about the status of refugees although like the Hartley is gay song it does in some way suggest it is something the target probably doesn't want to be suggested as being.

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 12:03 PM
[QUOTE=Joe Baker II;2774827]

It's not '......is a refugee' though is it - it's '.....is a ****ing refugee'. Any part of that strike you as showing intolerance towards any group?

MC you appear to be quoting me there, when I actually agree with what you are saying the use of f****** in the Skacel song actually, for me anyway, make it even worse.

I've always thought that the HIbs support was a reasonably educated and tolerant support, however there is a nasty element creeping in at times, and it's not just the kids! (that's not a pop at anyone involved in this thread btw!)

Tricla
07-04-2011, 12:10 PM
You moan about being unfairly generalised and then, apart from using the PC-like 'Soap box brigade', go on to generalise about everyone who disagrees with you.

I wasn't moaning about being unfairly generalised. I couldn't care what people on a forum think TBH. I was merely pointing out that I had been branded a racist and a bigot for no reason other than not caring about what is sung at the football.

'Soap Box Brigade' is not a generalisation of those who disagree with me. I understand that opinions vary and are all valid. It's a collective term for those who are so sure of their anti everything 'intolerable' stance and have chosen to call people like me and Hamilton Handling bigots for not caring about it and for not getting in a lather about it all.

Jack
07-04-2011, 12:15 PM
Does anyone really think singing a song at a player will really affect their game? If I was subjected to abuse I'm damn sure I'd put in a shift to put one over on the pr1cks singing it. Perhaps if we all concentrated on raising the atmosphere in a positive manner for our team we'd lift their levels of performance and we'd all go happy at 4:45 (or 3:30 or 9:15 or whatever other time Sky determine our games will finish!)

Yes it does. The proof.

Sunday, Craig Thomson. Moved from one wing to the other by their management following the abuse he was taking from the East. Once it started he failed spectacularly in all aspects of his game – he could pass, tackle, move with the ball.

My opinion if that was good or not? I’m not sure. Yes its great that we in the terraces can put off opposition players as well as encourage our own (which to me should always come first); what we were shouting is where my doubts lie.

Tricla
07-04-2011, 12:36 PM
However imo Tricla you are failing to understand the meaning of intolerance. You said about the Skacel son - "It cannot be compared to the bile that is spouted by Hertz and the ugly two" - why not - I think it can. Even if Scakel couldn't give a flying **** about it the infeernces in the song affect 'others' and that is the important bit for me.

I understand that some people find it offensive but I don't think it's filled with any sort of hatred towards his colour or creed unlike with Hertz and the OF's keech therefore I don't think it's anywhere near as bad. He's not a refugee and is from a country where exile hasn't been a distinct problem AFAIA. Being Caucasian, I'm not going to get in a fankle if someone were to call me a Paki or a Chink am I? The song is misguided and cannot be taken seriously IMO. That is only my opinion though and I accept your view is different.


Likewise you said "In regards the Sodje song, that's a bit of banter.' No it's using racial stereo types that again may offend others.

I still think it is a bit of banter and like I said I was at St Mirren that day when it was born. No-one there that day including Akpo seemed to mind it (I may be wrong though) and the atmosphere was great and The 12th Man helped get the team over the line that day by making noise for 90mins. As with the refugee song, I am not denying that some people may take offence but I am of the opinion that it's not worth getting upset about. Again that is just my opinion.


You ended that post saying "honestly, people are far, far too easily offended these days". I'd counter that by saying "Good, but not enough people yet to really stamp this crap out".

I'd say great, I hope people continue not to care about what are IMO some daft football songs.


Does anyone really think singing a song at a player will really affect their game?

Fulton, Hartley, Boruc..............

RyeSloan
07-04-2011, 12:41 PM
Jeez....sanitisation of the nation.

Nothing wrong with people putting forward an opinion and looking to highlight areas that maybe don't quite fit with a 'modern' view but I was at the game, enjoyed it (despite the naff Hibs defending) but FFS it was hardly a bigot fuelled racist jamboree that the article and some of the comments on here make it sound like.

Tricla
07-04-2011, 12:46 PM
It's not '......is a refugee' though is it - it's '.....is a ****ing refugee'. Any part of that strike you as showing intolerance towards any group?

It doesn't stick to the beat if you omit the sweary word though!:devil:

CropleyWasGod
07-04-2011, 12:51 PM
It doesn't stick to the beat if you omit the sweary word though!:devil:

Here's a thought.

We could sing "Rudi Skacel's not a refugee". That would scan, be correct, and avoid long threads like this.

No? :devil:

Removed
07-04-2011, 12:54 PM
Here's a thought.

We could sing "Rudi Skacel's not a refugee". That would scan, be correct, and avoid long threads like this.

No? :devil:

Still needs a ****ing or some other 2 syllable word in it to work imo

--------
07-04-2011, 01:29 PM
Yes it does. The proof.

Sunday, Craig Thomson. Moved from one wing to the other by their management following the abuse he was taking from the East. Once it started he failed spectacularly in all aspects of his game – he could pass, tackle, move with the ball.

My opinion if that was good or not? I’m not sure. Yes its great that we in the terraces can put off opposition players as well as encourage our own (which to me should always come first); what we were shouting is where my doubts lie.

The three top links you get if you google the case are these.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2010/10/05/hearts-star-craig-thomson-arrested-on-schoolgirl-sex-pictures-charge-86908-22609733/

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/201078-hearts-player-arrested-on-lewd-pictures-charge/

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/205518-hearts-player-craig-thomson-in-court-on-sex-charges/

The last of these has this headline and opening statement.

Hearts player Craig Thomson in court on sex charges

The defender is accused of lewd and libidinous behaviour towards two girls aged 12 and 16.

The link later repeats this charge, with one word added: "Footballer Craig Thomson has appeared in court charged with lewd and libidinous behaviour towards girls between 12 and 16."

The case hasn't actually come to court yet, so no one actually knows the full facts of the case yet, and there would appear to be some confusion about it, in particular the ages of the girls concerned. Or whether Craig Thomson thought he was "chatting" with anyone other than girls 3 years (at most) younger than himself.

Now I myself am a reasonably moral person, but I'm very glad that the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 wasn't around when I was at school or in my early years at University, because Fourth Year girls in my secondary school were almost all 15 years old, and I can confidently say that nearly all of my male classmates in the same Fourth Year (and as time went on in Fifth and Sixth) made a point of "acting lewdly and libidinously" towards them at every available opportunity. That's what 15-17 year old boys tend to do.

And I regret to say that we didn't stop when we left school. "Lewd and libidinous" is a default description of most male undergraduates, IIRC.

And that even then, in the late 1960's, it could be difficult to say for sure whether the girl in question was 16 years old or over, or just a mature 15 keeping company with her older pals....

Of course, we didn't do it over the internet.

But that's MUCH worse than a crowd, mostly men, aged from mid-teens to their 30's or 40's, baying "Paedo, paedo, paedo" at a 19-year-old, and justifying themselves on the grounds that it was at a football match, the teenager was playing for Hearts, and the chanting affected the way he was playing and therefore helped Hibs.

When the case comes to court, we MAY find out a little more of the truth of what exactly lies behind the prosecution - though I'm not holding my breath.

Joe Baker II
07-04-2011, 01:36 PM
There are none so blind that don't want to see, and none that don't want to see more than lackey 'social scientists' with a vested interest in this nonsense continuing. I wish those people woukd get proper jobs.

By chance just was talking to lecturer who wrote the article at lunch today, gathered quickly comments of the type "what on earth do we waste public money on a sports sociology academic/get a proper job etc are not new to him to say the least and suggested he log on and respond to you!!!

Was an interesting guy, is doing some sociological research on Hibs fans it seems.

See http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/education/about-us/people/academic-staff?person_id=224&cw_xml=profile.php and http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=604:sectarian-summit-flawed-basis-flawed-solutions&catid=45:season-2010-2011&Itemid=80

hibsbollah
07-04-2011, 02:11 PM
By chance just was talking to lecturer who wrote the article at lunch today, gathered quickly comments of the type "what on earth do we waste public money on a sports sociology academic/get a proper job etc are not new to him to say the least and suggested he log on and respond to you!!!

Was an interesting guy, is doing some sociological research on Hibs fans it seems.

See http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/education/about-us/people/academic-staff?person_id=224&cw_xml=profile.php and http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=604:sectarian-summit-flawed-basis-flawed-solutions&catid=45:season-2010-2011&Itemid=80

I totally disagree with Dashing Bob on this. Given the massive and intractable problem that sectarianism is in Scottish society, surely having professionals that study it is a good thing?

I like the stuff he's written.

Joe Baker II
07-04-2011, 02:32 PM
I totally disagree with Dashing Bob on this. Given the massive and intractable problem that sectarianism is in Scottish society, surely having professionals that study it is a good thing?

I like the stuff he's written.

He was highlighting a snob factor behind some of these attitudes in fact, saying there is a view "its football, sport for working class, why study it etc."

He was also highlighting what a meaningless term "sectarianism" is and that there is no effective definition, part of the reason UEFA/SFA rightly do not act on some of the more ridiculous sanctions suggested.

hibee4life1983
07-04-2011, 02:33 PM
Hes a brass kn.ob and has obviously never been to a derby, I thot it was quite tame!

Removed
07-04-2011, 02:41 PM
Hes a brass kn.ob and has obviously never been to a derby, I thot it was quite tame!

It's ok to say knob :wink:

--------
07-04-2011, 02:42 PM
By chance just was talking to lecturer who wrote the article at lunch today, gathered quickly comments of the type "what on earth do we waste public money on a sports sociology academic/get a proper job etc are not new to him to say the least and suggested he log on and respond to you!!!

Was an interesting guy, is doing some sociological research on Hibs fans it seems.

See http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/education/about-us/people/academic-staff?person_id=224&cw_xml=profile.php and http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=604:sectarian-summit-flawed-basis-flawed-solutions&catid=45:season-2010-2011&Itemid=80

So he's a Celtic supporter? So why should anyone pay any heed to anything he says or writes? What does he know? :rolleyes:

Actually that's a thoroughly unsettling article that I'm going to go back to and read again. And maybe again. I need to work out what I agree with (a lot, I think) and what I disagree with (I'm sure he has some important bits wrong, but I'm not yet sure what they are).

"Embedded racism" and "embedded bigotry" are the kind of bigotry and racism hardest to challenge or eradicate, simply because those who practice them aren't aware that they do.

Or they excuse themselves by saying "I personally wouldn't sing that song or use those names or go to that club, but it doesn't bother me that others do and I'm not going to challenge them or support anyone who does challenge them..."

"For evil to triumph, all that is necessary is that good men should do nothing" - bigotry and sectarianism are very serious problems in Scotland; they are not matters to joke about. Nor is their effect confined solely to Rangers supporters, or OF supporters, or football supporters, or people from Glasgow, or even Wee Airdrie Jambo and his ilk. They affect us all.



I totally disagree with Dashing Bob on this. Given the massive and intractable problem that sectarianism is in Scottish society, surely having professionals that study it is a good thing?

I like the stuff he's written.

So do I. We re-open our parliament after 300 years with a lass singing "A man's a man for a that ..." but under our breath we add "... as long as he went to the right school and speaks with the right accent and his skin's the right colour ..."

hibsbollah
07-04-2011, 02:43 PM
He was highlighting a snob factor behind some of these attitudes in fact, saying there is a view "its football, sport for working class, why study it etc."

He was also highlighting what a meaningless term "sectarianism" is and that there is no effective definition, part of the reason UEFA/SFA rightly do not act on some of the more ridiculous sanctions suggested.

All very valid points. As was his point about the media, particularly newspapers, being active participants in and beneficiaries from the 'sectarianism' they claim to be so shocked by.

ginger_rice
07-04-2011, 03:01 PM
All very valid points. As was his point about the media, particularly newspapers, being active participants in and beneficiaries from the 'sectarianism' they claim to be so shocked by.


That is one thing that does really need addressing, sectarianism is well and truly embedded in Scottish society and in the Scottish establishment, this part of his research would be very interesting to see when published:

Mediatisation of 'sectarianism' and Scottish football. Analysing the ideological and structural aspects of media and the implications for constructed representations of ideological concepts

Beefster
07-04-2011, 03:04 PM
I totally disagree with Dashing Bob on this. Given the massive and intractable problem that sectarianism is in Scottish society, surely having professionals that study it is a good thing?

I like the stuff he's written.

Spot on and I find the stuff of his that I've read very interesting too.

darwenhibby
07-04-2011, 03:30 PM
3 Arrests is pretty poor in a crowd of 17,800 when at Old Trafford at the Bolton game there was only two arrests in a crowd of 75,500.

The 2 arrests again were away fans drunk using threatening and abusive language.

Could have been a couple of yams with too much to drink inside them:tsk tsk:

marinello59
07-04-2011, 04:25 PM
3 Arrests is pretty poor in a crowd of 17,800 when at Old Trafford at the Bolton game there was only two arrests in a crowd of 75,500.

The 2 arrests again were away fans drunk using threatening and abusive language.

Could have been a couple of yams with too much to drink inside them:tsk tsk:

It is absolutely shocking. We need to up our game. Would it be overly ambitious to aim for double figures at the next Derby?:dunno:

Sir David Gray
07-04-2011, 10:32 PM
So your defense is that we ignore the racist singing (which you feel is justified because he is an erse) because we behaved much more badly when we chucked stuff at him?

I don't believe that the Skacel song is racist, though. I accept it's stupid and factually and politically incorrect but I wouldn't class it as racist. But then I seem to have a different definition of what 'racism' is to the majority of people on here. That has been shown time and time again in various threads.

I just think that the throwing of objects at Hearts players at the last two derbies is a far bigger problem for the club to sort out than a stupid song against Rudi Skacel. The people who have thrown these objects pose, in my opinion, a far bigger threat to the reputation of Hibernian Football Club than the people who have sung the song about Rudi Skacel.

I'm not aware of the club banning anyone off the back of the object-throwing incidents in November and last Sunday and given that the club made an announcement when they banned a few supporters who had misbehaved in Maribor, I'd have thought that they would have done likewise this time around, to serve as a reminder to other fans that they will be banned if they engage in this kind of behaviour during games.

Hibs haven't even issued any statements asking fans to refrain from singing the Skacel song. Given that this song has been around since Skacel's first spell at Hearts in 2005, it's not as if Hibs haven't had ample opportunity to make a stand against this song, if they thought that it was so wrong. Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not even certain that Hibs fined Derek Riordan when he made the song so (in)famous during his YouTube appearance.


Read this again and think about it, mate.

The dirty names and the racist songs are one side of the same coin as the missiles thrown at him.

Calling him dirty names leads on very easily to throwing things at him - the same people with the same dirty attitudes.

You call a man a dirty Yid, then you throw bricks through his windows, then you make him wear a yellow star, then you put him in a camp, then you gas him - all part of the same vicious circle.

I can see where you're coming from with this but I don't think that it necessarily follows on. Just because you call someone a name, doesn't mean to say that you will go on to physically attack them and cause them any harm.

I can't stand Rudi Skacel when he plays against us in a derby but away from a football environment, I may find him a fantastic guy if I was to meet him in a pub. I would have no interest at all in calling the guy names if I saw him in the street and I would certainly defend him if I saw him getting unwarranted abuse (whether it be physical or verbal) from a Hibs fan.

That would just be indefensible.


Would you be happy for someone to target your disability as a stick to beat you with, if they thought you were an ****hole?


In reply to FH if the song has no racist connotations at all then why 'Rudi Skacel is a ****ing refugee' why not 'Rudi Skacel yer a ******', a song we have aimed at many people over the years. I'm not accusing you, or anyone who sings the song, of being racist but i absolutely refuse to accept that the refugee reference has nothing to do with a mistaken belief that Skacel comes from a poor country in Eastern Europe (when in fact he comes from a reasonably well off country in Central Europe). To argue it's acceptable to throw out any old insult at someone just because you think they are a bit of an erse is just plain wrong IMO. As has been previously asked if someone was to aim an insult at you based on your use of a wheelchair just because they thought you were a bit of an erse would you be as understanding as you appear to be regarding the Skacel song?

I've actually been asked this question before on another thread and the answer that I would give is that it really depends on the nature of the insults.

I've often been known to take the mickey out of my disabilty, and the fact that I'm in a wheelchair, on several occasions so to a certain extent, I think I could handle anything that someone could throw at me.

As long as I'm not discriminated against because I'm disabled (i.e. overlooked for a job, denied access to a shop etc.) then what people say about me doesn't really bother me.

I think the biggest difference, though, is that people like myself ARE disabled. A lot of disabled people are sensitive about the problem that they have. We all know that Skacel isn't a refugee and, like I said the other day, if I was in the Czech Republic playing for a team there and rival fans were calling me a refugee, it wouldn't bother me one bit.

In fact, I think Skacel should take it as a backhanded compliment. In a lot of cases, players who are abused by rival fans, receive that treatment because they are perceived to be a threat to that team and their fans think he's a good player.

Joe Baker II
08-04-2011, 10:15 AM
In fact, I think Skacel should take it as a backhanded compliment. In a lot of cases, players who are abused by rival fans, receive that treatment because they are perceived to be a threat to that team and their fans think he's a good player.

Good point, reportedly Neil Lennon generally felt this way when he played too as did Robbie Savage.

Agree with the rest of your post as well particularly about object-throwing which at ER (not just Hibs fans I stress) seem to have a particular problem with for over 20 years. Do not want to exaggerate as I think there have been no serious injuries since a linesman at a 1985 game vAberdeen but point stands.

Though do not know how it can be stopped. I certainly do not want any more rigorous searches at grounds (ineffective control anyway as coins/phones not taken) and bans generally not enforceable and I suspect tend to be announced to give club bureaucrats feeling they are seen to be doing something anyway!

dangermouse
08-04-2011, 10:44 AM
I did acknowledge that in my post. perhaps I didn't word it very well:

The point being the recipient Andy Goram, actually found it funny, and as such when does a song become offensive? As a song against Andy Goram it was funny, if it was a song against people with mental illness in general then it's offensive, yes it's a fine line.

The humour intended in the Andy Goram song was obvious at the time, there wasn't even any swearing in it, is there any humour in the Skacel song?

Andy Goram was a completely different kettle of fish. I remember a game at ER v the Huns when Andy had obviously missed the pre season running up the sand dunes as he was looking slightly overweight for a professional footballer. "Who ate all the pies" sang the crowd at him and he duly stuck his stomach out further. Goram was obviously recognised as a play that would interact with lively banter from the terraces (the two Andy Goram's being another case in point) and none of the songs about him were considered offensive, not even by him. Boric was another who enjoyed the banter as well (maybe it's a goalkeeper thing).

The point I'm trying to make is that the "two Andy Goram's" song was never intended to be offensive and no offence was taken. The "refugee" song however, is meant to be offensive and should be dropped from the set list. It hasn't helped that this particular song was glorified by a fans favourite either.

bawheid
08-04-2011, 10:53 AM
The fact that the song has resulted in periodical 10 page threads on Hibs.net dating back to 2005, is good enough reason to see it dropped IMO.

The same arguments from the same folk - it's like being in a time-warp!

It's a pish song anyway. Offensive, potentially racist and just generally rubbish.

Phil MaGlass
08-04-2011, 11:13 AM
Richie Towell caused most of the stories. Presumably he's a major part of this conspiracy?

iS HE NOT FROM SELLIK?

Beefster
08-04-2011, 11:50 AM
iS HE NOT FROM SELLIK?

God give me strength....

So a player currently playing for Hibs is involved in a conspiracy to blacken the name of Hibs and Hibs supporters. I'm glad we cleared that up.

Wait until you hear that the US government was responsible for 9/11 and that man never set foot on the moon....

Tricla
08-04-2011, 11:53 AM
The fact that the song has resulted in periodical 10 page threads on Hibs.net dating back to 2005, is good enough reason to see it dropped IMO.

The same arguments from the same folk - it's like being in a time-warp!

It's a pish song anyway. Offensive, potentially racist and just generally rubbish.

Or good enough reason to keep it going? :devil:

Andy74
08-04-2011, 11:58 AM
Andy Goram was a completely different kettle of fish. I remember a game at ER v the Huns when Andy had obviously missed the pre season running up the sand dunes as he was looking slightly overweight for a professional footballer. "Who ate all the pies" sang the crowd at him and he duly stuck his stomach out further. Goram was obviously recognised as a play that would interact with lively banter from the terraces (the two Andy Goram's being another case in point) and none of the songs about him were considered offensive, not even by him. Boric was another who enjoyed the banter as well (maybe it's a goalkeeper thing).

The point I'm trying to make is that the "two Andy Goram's" song was never intended to be offensive and no offence was taken. The "refugee" song however, is meant to be offensive and should be dropped from the set list. It hasn't helped that this particular song was glorified by a fans favourite either.

Though the point that keeps getting made is that it doesn't matter if goram was offended or not, the song was making fun of mental illness and was offensive to mentally ill people as a result.

Just the same as the skacel song wasn't offensive really to Skacel as wasn't a refugee, but could at worst seem offensive to refugees.

Seems to me we'd have far more people who would have heard either song who would suffer from mental illness and the fact we can accept that as banter just sums up to me how daft the offense being taken by the refugee song is.

Phil D. Rolls
08-04-2011, 07:45 PM
Great argument that.

You are still not really grasping some of the arguments about this and suggesting anyone who has a different viewpoint is a fool.

I thought you were concenred about people being offended? By being ignorant and offensive? Bizarre.

You're right, I've destroyed my whole argument. I apologise unreservedly to any fools who may have been offended. :duck:

It's a fair point on the Goram situation, by the way. But for the record, all he said was that he wasn't mentally attuned to play for Scotland.

Personally, I think the whole thing about schizophrenics having two personalities so inaccurate that it couldn't possibly offend anyone who has the illness.

That said, I suppose that is exactly the same argument as is used against the Skacel song. Namely, that as it is factually inaccurate it can't be offensive. So I acknowledge that personal perspective should also be considered, and Tricla has a point.

At the end of the day though, if either song was objected to by the person, or group it was aimed at, I think that would be good enough reason to stop singing it.There's banter and there's jokes that do harm, it's important to understand the difference.

harpo
08-04-2011, 10:17 PM
Iv'e always hated the refugee song, afterall weren't Hibs formed by refugees forced to flee their homeland for various reasons including famine. Oh the irony:rolleyes:

The song has brought major embarrassment to the club and it's time we binned it!

MCameron
09-04-2011, 08:40 AM
I don't believe that the Skacel song is racist, though. I accept it's stupid and factually and politically incorrect but I wouldn't class it as racist. But then I seem to have a different definition of what 'racism' is to the majority of people on here. That has been shown time and time again in various threads.

I just think that the throwing of objects at Hearts players at the last two derbies is a far bigger problem for the club to sort out than a stupid song against Rudi Skacel. The people who have thrown these objects pose, in my opinion, a far bigger threat to the reputation of Hibernian Football Club than the people who have sung the song about Rudi Skacel.

I'm not aware of the club banning anyone off the back of the object-throwing incidents in November and last Sunday and given that the club made an announcement when they banned a few supporters who had misbehaved in Maribor, I'd have thought that they would have done likewise this time around, to serve as a reminder to other fans that they will be banned if they engage in this kind of behaviour during games.

Hibs haven't even issued any statements asking fans to refrain from singing the Skacel song. Given that this song has been around since Skacel's first spell at Hearts in 2005, it's not as if Hibs haven't had ample opportunity to make a stand against this song, if they thought that it was so wrong. Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not even certain that Hibs fined Derek Riordan when he made the song so (in)famous during his YouTube appearance.



I can see where you're coming from with this but I don't think that it necessarily follows on. Just because you call someone a name, doesn't mean to say that you will go on to physically attack them and cause them any harm.

I can't stand Rudi Skacel when he plays against us in a derby but away from a football environment, I may find him a fantastic guy if I was to meet him in a pub. I would have no interest at all in calling the guy names if I saw him in the street and I would certainly defend him if I saw him getting unwarranted abuse (whether it be physical or verbal) from a Hibs fan.

That would just be indefensible.





I've actually been asked this question before on another thread and the answer that I would give is that it really depends on the nature of the insults.

I've often been known to take the mickey out of my disabilty, and the fact that I'm in a wheelchair, on several occasions so to a certain extent, I think I could handle anything that someone could throw at me.

As long as I'm not discriminated against because I'm disabled (i.e. overlooked for a job, denied access to a shop etc.) then what people say about me doesn't really bother me.

I think the biggest difference, though, is that people like myself ARE disabled. A lot of disabled people are sensitive about the problem that they have. We all know that Skacel isn't a refugee and, like I said the other day, if I was in the Czech Republic playing for a team there and rival fans were calling me a refugee, it wouldn't bother me one bit.

In fact, I think Skacel should take it as a backhanded compliment. In a lot of cases, players who are abused by rival fans, receive that treatment because they are perceived to be a threat to that team and their fans think he's a good player.

It's not what you or space think is racist that is important but how the song is perceived by others who have been affected by the subject matter. The inference is there is something wrong with being a refugee - by the fact the f word is used. I do agree the missiles are a big issue too.

The club are aware of the original article and this thread and Fide Hyland is keen that fans work with the club to stamp this out. He suggests takin a note of seat number and giving it to a steward. Take note of steward's number and email details to the club for follow up. He mentioned the club is using more cctv technology which suggests there is a greater chance of identifying those acting inappropriately.

greenginger
09-04-2011, 10:10 AM
Iv'e always hated the refugee song, afterall weren't Hibs formed by refugees forced to flee their homeland for various reasons including famine. Oh the irony:rolleyes:

The song has brought major embarrassment to the club and it's time we binned it!


The men who founded Hibernian Football Club in 1875 would hardly consider themselves refugees.

It was all one country then.

FromTheCapital
09-04-2011, 10:17 AM
Sorry to say this but was that his 1st derby ?
Not saying it's right but it is very common in Edinburgh derbies these days...!

Beefster
09-04-2011, 11:34 AM
It's not what you or space think is racist that is important but how the song is perceived by others who have been affected by the subject matter. The inference is there is something wrong with being a refugee - by the fact the f word is used. I do agree the missiles are a big issue too.

The club are aware of the original article and this thread and Fide Hyland is keen that fans work with the club to stamp this out. He suggests takin a note of seat number and giving it to a steward. Take note of steward's number and email details to the club for follow up. He mentioned the club is using more cctv technology which suggests there is a greater chance of identifying those acting inappropriately.

It's all very well the club 'being aware' of it but asking the fans to police it is a cop-out. Until the stewards and police stop ignoring it when they hear it and the club do something publicly (and very visible), they won't get the fans to take action en masse.

Jack
09-04-2011, 02:04 PM
It's all very well the club 'being aware' of it but asking the fans to police it is a cop-out. Until the stewards and police stop ignoring it when they hear it and the club do something publicly (and very visible), they won't get the fans to take action en masse.

I don't necessarily agree with that.

The police stated quite categorically after the OF/Scottish Government farce that they wouldn’t arrest; they would take ‘robust’ action but didn't elaborate.

The stewards wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance in hell.

I think that peer pressure from the fans is the answer, exactly how that might be achieved I’m not quite sure – maybe something as simple as the other fans booing when the song is sung might be enough to discourage and if often enough and vigorously enough then the habit would be broken. I think this thread shows there are more that want these songs stopped than want to sing it.

Beefster
09-04-2011, 04:01 PM
I don't necessarily agree with that.

The police stated quite categorically after the OF/Scottish Government farce that they wouldn’t arrest; they would take ‘robust’ action but didn't elaborate.

The stewards wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance in hell.

I think that peer pressure from the fans is the answer, exactly how that might be achieved I’m not quite sure – maybe something as simple as the other fans booing when the song is sung might be enough to discourage and if often enough and vigorously enough then the habit would be broken. I think this thread shows there are more that want these songs stopped than want to sing it.

I was talking more specifically about asking supporters to 'grass' to the nearest steward while the stewards continue to ignore bigoted behaviour that they spot.

I agree that, as a mass, we can make a diference by peer pressure.

Hibernian Verse
09-04-2011, 04:11 PM
You've got to love the initial posts in this thread moaning about why the guy was even at the game, saying he's clearly a celtic/rangers fan. We're always looking for excuses or a topic-changer on here when things don't go our way.

--------
09-04-2011, 04:18 PM
I don't necessarily agree with that.

The police stated quite categorically after the OF/Scottish Government farce that they wouldn’t arrest; they would take ‘robust’ action but didn't elaborate.

The stewards wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance in hell.

I think that peer pressure from the fans is the answer, exactly how that might be achieved I’m not quite sure – maybe something as simple as the other fans booing when the song is sung might be enough to discourage and if often enough and vigorously enough then the habit would be broken. I think this thread shows there are more that want these songs stopped than want to sing it.


Then what are stewards for - bullying well-behaved fans while ignoring the ones that are out of order?

I would suggest that the fact is that generally speaking the Scottish police aren't in the least bit concerned with sectarian or racist chanting or singing in football grounds. Perhaps too many of them share the sentiments being expressed?

They turn a blind eye (and ear) to what goes on every week at Ibrox and Parkhead - why should we expect them to police any other ground properly?

In fact, if they were to actually find the courage to deal with what goes on at Celtic Park and Ibrox, they might find that other grounds were easier to police.

We don't want the game to become bland and unexciting; but speaking personally, I don't like hearing the Hibs support singing songs or coming out with chants that betray contempt for people on grounds of race, ethnicity, social or sexual grouping and so on. IMO we should be able to support Hibs and make ER a scary place to visit (for other teams, that is) without indulging in the sort of poisonous bile we hear and see going on in other stadiums.

Hatred, prejudice, and contempt really have no place in the way I want to see and enjoy the game.

And before anyone gets the idea that I'm down on the Hibs support, I would be genuinely surprised if this sort of debate were to surface on the fans' websites of many other football clubs in the SPL.

NAE NOOKIE
11-04-2011, 04:25 PM
As always, those who defend this racist song do so on the premise that they are not offended by it. They fail to acknowledge the fact that other people, such as immigrants, might not share their laid back approach to racism,

That's the crux of whether a thing is offensive. Not how the person passing the remark or singing the song feels about it, but whether the people it is aimed at are offended.

50 years ago it was considered good craic to slag off immigrants by calling them Pakis, or Chinks or N"ggers. Those people shrugged it off, because they had families to support and didn't have the time to fight back.

Their children grew up seeing this, and with the advantage of the economic freedom that their parents' sacrifices bought, started to fight back. The racism of the 60s sewed the seeds of fundamentalism in the 21st Century.

Cause and effect, it's worth considering what message is sent out by this seemingly harmless ditty. Anyway, if the club is serious about stamping oiut racism, this won't be a matter for debate.

Of course, if there was a groundswell of opinion from minority groups saying this is over reaction, I'd happily go along with it. The last thing we want to do is make life more difficult for them by over reaction.

IMO, it is racist and anyone who seeks to defend it is a fool. It's for the supporters and club to work out where they stand on it. We really need a better quality of debate from those that are defending it, because most of what has come out just hasn't been thought through.

:top marks

A few years ago the town of Peebles got into a bit of a stushie because a teacher at a local school objected to people dressing as Gollywogs in the towns annual fancy dress parade.

There was a big outcry by a sizeable minority in the town saying "it had aye been" and a local boozer even changed its name to 'The Gollywogs rest' for the day.

As Filled Rolls said in his post. Its not whether the person singing the song, making the comment, or dressing as a Gollywog thinks they are being offensive.

The bottom line is does the person on the receiving end think its offensive. If yes then its offensive ..... End of.

Golden Bear
11-04-2011, 04:53 PM
:top marks

A few years ago the town of Peebles got into a bit of a stushie because a teacher at a local school objected to people dressing as Gollywogs in the towns annual fancy dress parade.

There was a big outcry by a sizeable minority in the town saying "it had aye been" and a local boozer even changed its name to 'The Gollywogs rest' for the day.

As Filled Rolls said in his post. Its not whether the person singing the song, making the comment, or dressing as a Gollywog thinks they are being offensive.

The bottom line is does the person on the receiving end think its offensive. If yes then its offensive ..... End of.

My understanding is that golliwogs are not real and at one time they featured on the labels of jamjars.

But there again - I suppose they should have been consulted.

:rolleyes:

Phil D. Rolls
12-04-2011, 08:05 AM
My understanding is that golliwogs are not real and at one time they featured on the labels of jamjars.

But there again - I suppose they should have been consulted.

:rolleyes:

No harm done, the people of Peebles were quite haopy to be seen as ignorant by the outside world. Craig Charles, covering this for the BBC at the time was particularly amused, but what would he know about racism?

--------
12-04-2011, 10:14 AM
My understanding is that golliwogs are not real and at one time they featured on the labels of jamjars.

But there again - I suppose they should have been consulted.

:rolleyes:

The golliwog was a soft toy based on the make-up and costume of "entertainers" usually referred to as "****** minstrels". "****** minstrels" were usually white men in black-face make-up and survived well into the second half of the 20th century. BBC had a very popular song-and-dance show "The Black And White Minstrel Show" which ran till 1978 - men in black-face, women not.

Creepy - see extract: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoYOraDt1_k

Al Jolson was another prominent example - a Jewish singer blacking-up as an Afro-American to sing cheesy "plantation" songs to a largely WASP audience. Work that one out.

The "golliwog" rightly came to be seen as an insulting racial stereotype of the black man. (It's where the word "wog" comes from, after all.) Robertson's used it as a trademark on their jam-jars for a long time, but have now removed it - but I can remember as a wee boy collecting "golliwog" badges Robertson's were giving away in a promotion. The B&W Minstrel Show was one of the most popular light entertainment shows the BBC ever produced and when it was cancelled the yelling and screaming was absolutely deafening.

(Oddly enough, the same singers singing the same crappy songs but without the make-up was never considered to be a viable alternative for some reason. The men HAD to be in black-face. That's what gave the game away - it was racist.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kc4EwD5hoA&NR=1

It was a fine example of blatant racism excused by people claiming that it was "only a kiddie's toy" or that "it's only a bit of fun". Where was the harm, after all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg

lapsedhibee
12-04-2011, 12:39 PM
I can remember as a wee boy collecting "golliwog" badges Robertson's were giving away in a promotion.

Genuine question here. Do you think you were at one time in your life a racist?

HibsMax
12-04-2011, 12:52 PM
I get the impression that the media have been looking desperately for an "it's not just the Old Firm" line and, well, we didn't have to make them delve too deeply.

That's the message I got too. Pity we couldn't make him leave empty handed.

MCameron
12-04-2011, 06:52 PM
Unfortunately while a straw poll shows approximately 35% of Hibs fans are either (a) racist (although some may not think/understand they are) or (b) are happy to ignore the fact that racist songs are sung then I'd say we're just as culpable as the OF and any other clubs where songs targeting others on grounds of race, religion, gender or sexuality are sung.

It's only a matter of time IMO before we too end up on the front pages facing a UEFA fine . They can hardly make an example of Rangers and then ignore other clubs in the same league practicing what adds up to the same charge.

bawheid
13-04-2011, 08:26 AM
Unfortunately while a straw poll shows approximately 35% of Hibs fans are either (a) racist (although some may not think/understand they are) or (b) are happy to ignore the fact that racist songs are sung then I'd say we're just as culpable as the OF and any other clubs where songs targeting others on grounds of race, religion, gender or sexuality are sung.

It's only a matter of time IMO before we too end up on the front pages facing a UEFA fine . They can hardly make an example of Rangers and then ignore other clubs in the same league practicing what adds up to the same charge.

We'd have to qualify for the Champions or Europa League and then belt out the Skacel ditty with full gusto at one of our games in said competitions. UEFA would then have to decide to make an example of us. I'll bet there's dodgy songs sung at loads of European games. IMO Rangers are on a different level.

The Skacel song is pish, utter pish in fact. I honestly don't believe it's on the same level as the Billy Boys, FTP, No Pope of Rome, etc, though.

Andy74
13-04-2011, 09:50 AM
Unfortunately while a straw poll shows approximately 35% of Hibs fans are either (a) racist (although some may not think/understand they are) or (b) are happy to ignore the fact that racist songs are sung then I'd say we're just as culpable as the OF and any other clubs where songs targeting others on grounds of race, religion, gender or sexuality are sung.

It's only a matter of time IMO before we too end up on the front pages facing a UEFA fine . They can hardly make an example of Rangers and then ignore other clubs in the same league practicing what adds up to the same charge.

That's a stupid statement.

There's a quite obvious other option that quite a number don't interpret the song the same way. You might put that down to not understanding it but equally those people, myself included would suggest that actually those interpreting it a certain way are the ones not understanding.

It's just a different viewpoint and if you are suggesting that I'm racist or maybe just ignorant of the fact I am racist I'd like you to come out and say that to me face to face sometime.

Beefster
13-04-2011, 01:10 PM
That's a stupid statement.

There's a quite obvious other option that quite a number don't interpret the song the same way. You might put that down to not understanding it but equally those people, myself included would suggest that actually those interpreting it a certain way are the ones not understanding.

It's just a different viewpoint and if you are suggesting that I'm racist or maybe just ignorant of the fact I am racist I'd like you to come out and say that to me face to face sometime.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I always thought that you'd be above the keyboard warrior routine.

MCameron
13-04-2011, 01:54 PM
That's a stupid statement.

There's a quite obvious other option that quite a number don't interpret the song the same way. You might put that down to not understanding it but equally those people, myself included would suggest that actually those interpreting it a certain way are the ones not understanding.

It's just a different viewpoint and if you are suggesting that I'm racist or maybe just ignorant of the fact I am racist I'd like you to come out and say that to me face to face sometime.

Unnecessary aggression imho Andy - I'd discuss this topic face to face with anyone willing to take part in a reasoned, courteous debate. I don't know you so can't be in any position to judge you. And my issue is not all about the skacel song but I've covered my thoughts already in this and the poll thread.

Would you consider asking the club if they find the song racist - if they said yes would that change your mind? If you want to carry on thinking what you do that's your choice - I just wish these views could be kept away from the club I love.as there are a majority who do see these songs as intolerant.

Luna_Asylum
13-04-2011, 02:23 PM
The old firm can certainly claim a success here already. Some kind of combination of the (weegie)press, Dr Kelly and his ilk plus the so called soapbox brigade have done their best to deflect attention away from the most guilty clubs.
What will most likely happen now is clubs will have to ban songs. In the case of the scatchel song we can all celebrate that.
What is for sure is that those on board the easily offended bus are going to be in for a extremly rocky ride as fans stay one step ahead of the censors.

Beefster
13-04-2011, 02:29 PM
The old firm can certainly claim a success here already. Some kind of combination of the (weegie)press, Dr Kelly and his ilk plus the so called soapbox brigade have done their best to deflect attention away from the most guilty clubs.
What will most likely happen now is clubs will have to ban songs. In the case of the scatchel song we can all celebrate that.
What is for sure is that those on board the easily offended bus are going to be in for a extremly rocky ride as fans stay one step ahead of the censors.

Exactly, and if folk didn't talk about sectarianism, homophobia, racism etc etc then we'd never have to bother doing anything about them either.

Yours Sincerely
The Couldn't Give A ***** About Anyone Else Train

Andy74
13-04-2011, 02:37 PM
Unnecessary aggression imho Andy - I'd discuss this topic face to face with anyone willing to take part in a reasoned, courteous debate. I don't know you so can't be in any position to judge you. And my issue is not all about the skacel song but I've covered my thoughts already in this and the poll thread.

Would you consider asking the club if they find the song racist - if they said yes would that change your mind? If you want to carry on thinking what you do that's your choice - I just wish these views could be kept away from the club I love.as there are a majority who do see these songs as intolerant.

It's not aggressive. You are happy calling me and a significant amount of others a racist. I was wondering if that's something you'd be happy doing not behind a keyboard.

Have you asked the club if they officially find it racist? I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time confirming that one. And no, I wouldn't change my mind if they did say it was. I don't sing it in any case but I have my views on the interpretation of the song.

You evidently interpret it differently but you can't call others who may just see it differently racist or is some way in denial about being racist. for me this is about interpretation of words, their meaning and intent (accepting that something can be racist without intent) and there are others who are making the same sort of points and are clearly not racist.

Intolerant and offensive are very different things I've no objection to saying that I have for several years at football sung songs that I consider to be intolerant and offensive.

HNA12
13-04-2011, 02:45 PM
Please don't turn this in to a tit for tat name calling session. We don't want to close the thread but will do if nothing is really being debated any more.

MCameron
13-04-2011, 03:08 PM
It's not aggressive. You are happy calling me and a significant amount of others a racist. I was wondering if that's something you'd be happy doing not behind a keyboard.

Have you asked the club if they officially find it racist? I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time confirming that one. And no, I wouldn't change my mind if they did say it was. I don't sing it in any case but I have my views on the interpretation of the song.

You evidently interpret it differently but you can't call others who may just see it differently racist or is some way in denial about being racist. for me this is about interpretation of words, their meaning and intent (accepting that something can be racist without intent) and there are others who are making the same sort of points and are clearly not racist.

Intolerant and offensive are very different things I've no objection to saying that I have for several years at football sung songs that I consider to be intolerant and offensive.

Where have I called you a racist? Based on the poll I believe those who voted that they sing the scakel song are either knowingly or unknowingly racist. That's my opinion - you have your own. I'd say that if I was in the same room as you as I am simply airing my own views on a forum where debate is encouraged. My intention is not to attack any poster but to raise this issue as I think it's important.

The 'show racism the red card' site has resources that clearly explain racism. I would be interested to hear from anyone who reads them how belting out about anybody being a ****ing refugee isn't exactly what they are trying to remove from football. And I know - you don't sing it Andy but I'd be interested to see how your own interpretation of that song compares with their views?

hibsbollah
13-04-2011, 03:20 PM
Andy, you're not making any sense. Getting involved in semantics over what is 'racism' and what is simply bigoted, is pointless nonsense, and just makes you look as if you dont understand the terminology yourself.

Andy74
13-04-2011, 03:24 PM
Andy, you're not making any sense. Getting involved in semantics over what is 'racism' and what is simply bigoted, is pointless nonsense, and just makes you look as if you dont understand the terminology yourself.

That's not what I am saying and I've explained it over a few threads now, as have others, so not going to go through it again.

Jack
13-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Is a song offensive is really all we need to be asking.

It doesn’t really matter what kind of offensive it is – does it?

Andy74
13-04-2011, 03:43 PM
Is a song offensive is really all we need to be asking.

It doesn’t really matter what kind of offensive it is – does it?

Of course it does.

You Hearts b.

Who's the b in the black?

Who ate all the pies ?

Booked for being ugly.

They are all offensive. All also suggest there is something wrong with falling into one of those categories, usually as a side issue to the intitial target.

Then there is more directly objectionable songs such as:

You black

We hate refugees.

Dirty orange b

They have a more direct showing of contempt for the group that is the main target of the song.

For me the refugee song, from it's intial starting in Dnipro was from the first category. much like the mention of the word b is not a commentary on illegitimate people the refugee reference (even with a sweary word) is not a commentary on refugees.

Okay, I said I wouldn't explain again so I'm now out!

MCameron
13-04-2011, 08:00 PM
For me the refugee song, from it's intial starting in Dnipro was from the first category. much like the mention of the word b is not a commentary on illegitimate people the refugee reference (even with a sweary word) is not a commentary on refugees. !

The b word is commentary on illegitimate people whether you are willing to admit it or not. It's a derogatory term - the recipient themself may not be illegitimate but others around you may be. Same argument for refugee song, hartley song etc.

You may have thought it was a bit of banter but those facing this on a continual basis won't.

Happy to leave it that we disagree and still don't think I called you a racist.

ArabHibee
13-04-2011, 08:25 PM
The b word is commentary on illegitimate people whether you are willing to admit it or not. It's a derogatory term - the recipient themself may not be illegitimate but others around you may be. Same argument for refugee song, hartley song etc.

You may have thought it was a bit of banter but those facing this on a continual basis won't.

Happy to leave it that we disagree and still don't think I called you a racist.

The bit in bold is true, but does it still have the same potent meaning as it did say, 30 years ago? 'Back in the day' it was frowned upon if you're parents weren't married or you were being brought up in a one parent family. Nowadays, nobody gives a hoot about your parents marital status.

lapsedhibee
13-04-2011, 08:43 PM
The b word is commentary on illegitimate people whether you are willing to admit it or not.


The bit in bold is true, but does it still have the same potent meaning as it did say, 30 years ago?

Not only does it not have the same potent meaning, it doesn't even have the same meaning as it did, say, 30 years ago. Calling someone a ******* is in 2011 absolutely nothing to do with their birth status imo. It's just a general (quite often very mild) term of abuse.

Some of the people on this board would be up in arms if you were to remark that you'd been slaving all day over a hot stove. :bitchy:

MCameron
13-04-2011, 08:57 PM
Not only does it not have the same potent meaning, it doesn't even have the same meaning as it did, say, 30 years ago. Calling someone a ******* is in 2011 absolutely nothing to do with their birth status imo. It's just a general (quite often very mild) term of abuse.

Some of the people on this board would be up in arms if you were to remark that you'd been slaving all day over a hot stove. :bitchy:

Now you are just slave-ering! :na na:

I agree that marital status is not viewed the same in 2011 but that still doesn't mean that the b word isn't abusive to illegitimate people (maybe not all but some who may have struggled during their upbringing as a result of not knowing who their father was for example).

Phil D. Rolls
14-04-2011, 09:23 AM
It's not aggressive. You are happy calling me and a significant amount of others a racist. I was wondering if that's something you'd be happy doing not behind a keyboard.

Have you asked the club if they officially find it racist? I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time confirming that one. And no, I wouldn't change my mind if they did say it was. I don't sing it in any case but I have my views on the interpretation of the song.

You evidently interpret it differently but you can't call others who may just see it differently racist or is some way in denial about being racist. for me this is about interpretation of words, their meaning and intent (accepting that something can be racist without intent) and there are others who are making the same sort of points and are clearly not racist.

Intolerant and offensive are very different things I've no objection to saying that I have for several years at football sung songs that I consider to be intolerant and offensive.

I'm never happy to tell anyone they are a racist, but there are times you have to do it. It's horrible, because if they didn't realise they were doing it, you are hurting them twice - once by calling them a racist, and once by making them think they are stupid,

You make a fair point that people shouldn't do it on here if they aren't prepared to say it to someone's face, but it doesn't change the fact that singing racist songs makes you a racist - even if you don't believe you are.

It's also a fair point that not all the people who sing the song have got anything against immigrants. However, I believe a fair proportion of people do. You just have to listen to some of the stuff that's spouted at tea breaks to work out that it goes on.

Last week I was talking about a shop in a Fife village, and a colleague said "that one run by people from overseas". I said, "what, Edinburgh?"

Come here taking our jobs etc etc...