Louis Theroux and the Westboro Baptists

[Twa Cairpets]

Interesting follow up last night to the original Louis Theroux programme on the Westboro Baptists "The most hated family in America".

While they are, I am sure, viewed as warped and despicable equally to people of faith and atheists, I found that that there was a certain terrifying logic to what they were trying to put over. Their point was that every affliction and happenstance on the planet was divinely inspired, so that cancer, the death of children, AIDS etc etc should be celebrated as it was an example of Gods hand at work.

I know that there stance is that of a miniscule minority and is incredibly offensive to almost everybody, but you can kind of see where they are getting their views from.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Interesting follow up last night to the original Louis Theroux programme on the Westboro Baptists "The most hated family in America".

While they are, I am sure, viewed as warped and despicable equally to people of faith and atheists, I found that that there was a certain terrifying logic to what they were trying to put over. Their point was that every affliction and happenstance on the planet was divinely inspired, so that cancer, the death of children, AIDS etc etc should be celebrated as it was an example of Gods hand at work.

I know that there stance is that of a miniscule minority and is incredibly offensive to almost everybody, but you can kind of see where they are getting their views from.

I can and I sincerely hope it's somewhere I never have to visit!!

This is my problem with religion, some people (a minority) are not capable of getting the general idea of religion and instead want to follow it to the letter and then must find a way of making everything fit there view of religion.

To me the Christian religion is more about the general idea of living a good life, not harming others, believing in god and celebrating being alive etc.

You just can't take the bible too literally otherwise you'll end up like these bampots.

However, as a non believer I don't really care:wink:

[Beefster]

I thought that it was ironic that they don't seem to apply the same logic to happenings within their community.

It was also extremely sad to see kids, who had come to their senses, being ostracised from their families.

[Pretty Boy]

Pretty uncomfortable viewing.

The way family members seemed so willing to attempt to switch off their feelings out of loyalty to the church was quite disturbing. The indoctrination/brainwashing throughout the years has clearly left a mark.

It was particularly sad to see the effect the teachings had on the younger members of the family who were essentially clones of their parents and were only too happy to recite what they had been taught, there appeared to be a perverse pride in saying the right things.

All in all a group of very sad individuals who have been brainwashed into being bitter and twisted human beings.

[lapsedhibee]

It was also extremely sad to see kids, who had come to their senses, being ostracised from their families.

Au contraire, think it an optimistic sign that children can be resilient enough to cut off from the 'upbringing' of slavering parents. Not ideal, but a sign of hope nevertheless.

[AgentDaleCooper]

if the supreme court allows them to continue, and they're driven out of the country by angry americans, and end up in jerusalem converting loads of jews...i'm going to start ****ting myself.

[Marabou Stork]

You've all missed the important point here. The daughter who left to go to connecticut would get lanced all over the shop.

[Future17]

You've all missed the important point here. The daughter who left to go to connecticut would get lanced all over the shop.

Insightful. :agree:

:greengrin

[EH6 Hibby]

I watched the original one when it was first aired, and it scared me then, what struck me while watching the second one was that they seem to be loving the attention, I actually started to wonder how much of what they were doing was about beliefs and how much was for the attention their demonstrations generated. All that nonsense with the Lady Gaga songs and dance routines and stuff, it seemed to me to be for the camera's.

Regardless of what the reason for it all, they are a group of seriously disturbed people.

[Twa Cairpets]

I watched the original one when it was first aired, and it scared me then, what struck me while watching the second one was that they seem to be loving the attention, I actually started to wonder how much of what they were doing was about beliefs and how much was for the attention their demonstrations generated. All that nonsense with the Lady Gaga songs and dance routines and stuff, it seemed to me to be for the camera's.

Regardless of what the reason for it all, they are a group of seriously disturbed people.

They sure are.

But I don't think they could be willing to be so utterly loathed unless the level of their dedication / belief in the absolute rightness of their stance was such that it overcame the human need to be liked. Thats scary.

Also, for true bonkersness, listen again if you can to the sermon by Fred Phelps. One of those fire and brimstone things where all the words individually I understand, but it made no sense at all as a joined-up thought process.

[lapsedhibee]

all the words individually I understand, but it made no sense at all as a joined-up thought process
Repeatedly speaking this way in public over a large number of years has got John Prescott a seat in the House of Lords. Why wouldn't it work in America? :dunno:

[Hibs Class]

Interesting follow up last night to the original Louis Theroux programme on the Westboro Baptists "The most hated family in America".

While they are, I am sure, viewed as warped and despicable equally to people of faith and atheists, I found that that there was a certain terrifying logic to what they were trying to put over. Their point was that every affliction and happenstance on the planet was divinely inspired, so that cancer, the death of children, AIDS etc etc should be celebrated as it was an example of Gods hand at work.

I know that there stance is that of a miniscule minority and is incredibly offensive to almost everybody, but you can kind of see where they are getting their views from.

Many religions rationalise things like natural disasters and the deaths of children as God's will and whilst not necessarily celebrating it, such a view may help with acceptance of such events, so it isn't extreme of these people to take a similar view. Where they are extreme is in their "interpretation" of the bible, which I think is well beyond literal, and their attitude to e.g. dead soldiers and homsosexuals. Even if their attitudes to groups of people could be rationalised their actions on the back of this, e.g. picketing funerals and shouting at mourners demonstrates that they are just an anti social combination of evil / attention seeking / manipulated individuals

[Pretty Boy]

They sure are.

But I don't think they could be willing to be so utterly loathed unless the level of their dedication / belief in the absolute rightness of their stance was such that it overcame the human need to be liked. Thats scary.

Also, for true bonkersness, listen again if you can to the sermon by Fred Phelps. One of those fire and brimstone things where all the words individually I understand, but it made no sense at all as a joined-up thought process.

This is something i noticed and was also picked up by Theroux in the original documentary. Phelps, and the church members, seem absolutely obsessed with the Old Testament and the vengeful, spiteful God who smites the disobedient. Despite calling themselves Christian they seem to completely ignore the fact that Jesus' message was one of a loving, forgiving God.

[Beefster]

I watched the original one when it was first aired, and it scared me then, what struck me while watching the second one was that they seem to be loving the attention, I actually started to wonder how much of what they were doing was about beliefs and how much was for the attention their demonstrations generated. All that nonsense with the Lady Gaga songs and dance routines and stuff, it seemed to me to be for the camera's.

Regardless of what the reason for it all, they are a group of seriously disturbed people.

I thought that the dancing, in particular, was just young girls trying to be young girls but having to justify it in a certain manner to be able to do it. If they could openly dance and sing to the originals, I'd be surprised if they bothered changing the words.

[steakbake]

I actually pitied the fools. They are so wrapped up in their view of the world that they have become detached from anything reaching reality.

It is exactly the same as the guy on My Brother, The Fundamentalist. Anyone see that?

That level of religious observance goes beyond being a belief and I think becomes something much more of a psychiatric condition.

[Twa Cairpets]

This is something i noticed and was also picked up by Theroux in the original documentary. Phelps, and the church members, seem absolutely obsessed with the Old Testament and the vengeful, spiteful God who smites the disobedient. Despite calling themselves Christian they seem to completely ignore the fact that Jesus' message was one of a loving, forgiving God.

Would they not argue that those who claim to be Christian equally completely ignore the messages of the Old Testament because it is uncomfortable to accomodate some of the less savoury elements of it with modern opinions on morality re homosexuality, slavery etc? From my atheist viewpoint, it is very clear that the vast majority of Christians (and doubtless muslims and hindus and allt he rest, but I dont know so many of them), take the positives of the Bible when they seek to derive guidance or comfort from their religion, but do these loons have a kind of warped moral high ground if they are completely, absolutely literalist in their interpretation of the bible?

I think they are very wrong in this interpretation, but do they not view what mainstream believers think and do as being offensive to God if it is not exactly in line with what is written in the Bible?

I also though that if what they picketed about was not driven from a religious perspective, would they be jailed or committed as being insane, even in the US? (Not having a pop at religion here, because this to me isnt religion, its just a flock of crazy bigots getting their jollies being deeply unpleasant).

[Bookkeeper]

They sure are.

But I don't think they could be willing to be so utterly loathed unless the level of their dedication / belief in the absolute rightness of their stance was such that it overcame the human need to be liked. Thats scary.

Also, for true bonkersness, listen again if you can to the sermon by Fred Phelps. One of those fire and brimstone things where all the words individually I understand, but it made no sense at all as a joined-up thought process.


True bonkersness is when intelligent people whether atheist or Christian give any credence to the hateful bilge these nutters spout.

[Twa Cairpets]

True bonkersness is when intelligent people whether atheist or Christian give any credence to the hateful bilge these nutters spout.

Indeed. But with Phelps sermon I found myself thinking - this guy is a complete fruitloop, I find him deeply abhorrent, but if I really dont have the faintest clue what he's rambling on about. It was like listening to an American Father Jack going "****!" "Jews!" "Fags!" with a contorted face of loathing.

[easty]

Would they not argue that those who claim to be Christian equally completely ignore the messages of the Old Testament because it is uncomfortable to accomodate some of the less savoury elements of it with modern opinions on morality re homosexuality, slavery etc? From my atheist viewpoint, it is very clear that the vast majority of Christians (and doubtless muslims and hindus and allt he rest, but I dont know so many of them), take the positives of the Bible when they seek to derive guidance or comfort from their religion, but do these loons have a kind of warped moral high ground if they are completely, absolutely literalist in their interpretation of the bible?

I think they are very wrong in this interpretation, but do they not view what mainstream believers think and do as being offensive to God if it is not exactly in line with what is written in the Bible?

I also though that if what they picketed about was not driven from a religious perspective, would they be jailed or committed as being insane, even in the US? (Not having a pop at religion here, because this to me isnt religion, its just a flock of crazy bigots getting their jollies being deeply unpleasant).

I watched it last night, and I thought this as well.

[ancienthibby]

Interesting follow up last night to the original Louis Theroux programme on the Westboro Baptists "The most hated family in America".

While they are, I am sure, viewed as warped and despicable equally to people of faith and atheists, I found that that there was a certain terrifying logic to what they were trying to put over. Their point was that every affliction and happenstance on the planet was divinely inspired, so that cancer, the death of children, AIDS etc etc should be celebrated as it was an example of Gods hand at work.

I know that there stance is that of a miniscule minority and is incredibly offensive to almost everybody, but you can kind of see where they are getting their views from.


I have not yet been able to see the entire programme (as I do not have TV) but I have seen two 15 min extracts out of order, and an LT trailer put out by the BBC, on the internet.

I find little Biblical in what these people say and I find their slogans saying 'God hates fags' as completely un-scriptural. Scripture does teach us (using the old adage): 'hate the sin, love the sinner'! But it goes beyond that, - it is not in God's capability to hate the people He created and for whom He gave His own Son!!

I know people have critizised the video for showing signs of the indoctrination of young kids, but I did see a clip of a young lad, called Gabriel, maybe 13 or thereabouts, and he did speak about the key to all of this - and that is the Grace of God!

There are real fundamental contradictions in what these Westboro folks go on about, but the key is that the old law of the Old Testament has been, not replaced, but superceded, by the New Testament, wherein, the Lord Jesus takes on ALL the sins of the world to Himself, and no further penance is required. That is what the 13-year old had grasped - and he is right!

[Bookkeeper]

Indeed. But with Phelps sermon I found myself thinking - this guy is a complete fruitloop, I find him deeply abhorrent, but if I really dont have the faintest clue what he's rambling on about. It was like listening to an American Father Jack going "****!" "Jews!" "Fags!" with a contorted face of loathing.

Yes, I share your concern that sensationalist tv programmes are being used to undermine the Gospel and purport to show 'Christians' in action. :wink:

Didn't hear the word 'love' used once in the programme! Ancienthibby puts it well above.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Surely he only has a chance of being right if the viewer believes in God/Jesus?

[BroxburnHibee]

I have not yet been able to see the entire programme (as I do not have TV) but I have seen two 15 min extracts out of order, and an LT trailer put out by the BBC, on the internet.

I find little Biblical in what these people say and I find their slogans saying 'God hates fags' as completely un-scriptural. Scripture does teach us (using the old adage): 'hate the sin, love the sinner'! But it goes beyond that, - it is not in God's capability to hate the people He created and for whom He gave His own Son!!

I know people have critizised the video for showing signs of the indoctrination of young kids, but I did see a clip of a young lad, called Gabriel, maybe 13 or thereabouts, and he did speak about the key to all of this - and that is the Grace of God!

There are real fundamental contradictions in what these Westboro folks go on about, but the key is that the old law of the Old Testament has been, not replaced, but superceded, by the New Testament, wherein, the Lord Jesus takes on ALL the sins of the world to Himself, and no further penance is required. That is what the 13-year old had grasped - and he is right!

Good post

You can watch it on BBC iplayer

[Twa Cairpets]

I have not yet been able to see the entire programme (as I do not have TV) but I have seen two 15 min extracts out of order, and an LT trailer put out by the BBC, on the internet.

I find little Biblical in what these people say and I find their slogans saying 'God hates fags' as completely un-scriptural. Scripture does teach us (using the old adage): 'hate the sin, love the sinner'! But it goes beyond that, - it is not in God's capability to hate the people He created and for whom He gave His own Son!!

I know people have critizised the video for showing signs of the indoctrination of young kids, but I did see a clip of a young lad, called Gabriel, maybe 13 or thereabouts, and he did speak about the key to all of this - and that is the Grace of God!

There are real fundamental contradictions in what these Westboro folks go on about, but the key is that the old law of the Old Testament has been, not replaced, but superceded, by the New Testament, wherein, the Lord Jesus takes on ALL the sins of the world to Himself, and no further penance is required. That is what the 13-year old had grasped - and he is right!

I understand you rposition on this, and if you will forgive me for putting myself of a devils advocate for the Westboro Baptists (now theres a position I'd never thought I'd adopt), I suspect there argument would be, simply, "you're wrong". Jesus does confirm in the Bible that he was there to uphold the OT prophecies, that ten commandments are in the OT, and that contradictory to your point that "it is not in Gods capability to hate the people he created", the bible of both testaments (but the OT in particualr, to be fair) is fairly strewn with murder, genocide (Noahs flood being the prime example) and general unpleasantness towards his own creation. I offer you Job in particular as someone who suffered a fairly hateful personal attack (or maybe more particualrly his family and servants who were almost all killed so God could prove a point).

But Im not really wanting to get into another debate about whether or not God is real, which is where this would go. The Westboro guys would view you as being accomodationist and therefore, I strongly suspect, damned.

The only difference between you, in scriptural terms, is that they take an incredibly literalist hardline view, whereas your more "modern" view is that it is open to human interpretation. Their position is actually much easier to defend than yours, I think. It's not particularly intellectually robust, but has a certain assertive "The Bible says it, the bible is true, so what God said and what he does is right, including cancer, violent death, homophobia etc, with NO exceptions".


Yes, I share your concern that sensationalist tv programmes are being used to undermine the Gospel and purport to show 'Christians' in action...

Never been accused before of being concerned about the Gospel being undermined...:wink:

[Jones28]

You've all missed the important point here. The daughter who left to go to connecticut would get lanced all over the shop.

:rules:

SENSIBLE DISCUSSION
:greengrin

[ancienthibby]

I understand you rposition on this, and if you will forgive me for putting myself of a devils advocate for the Westboro Baptists (now theres a position I'd never thought I'd adopt), I suspect there argument would be, simply, "you're wrong". Jesus does confirm in the Bible that he was there to uphold the OT prophecies, that ten commandments are in the OT, and that contradictory to your point that "it is not in Gods capability to hate the people he created", the bible of both testaments (but the OT in particualr, to be fair) is fairly strewn with murder, genocide (Noahs flood being the prime example) and general unpleasantness towards his own creation. I offer you Job in particular as someone who suffered a fairly hateful personal attack (or maybe more particualrly his family and servants who were almost all killed so God could prove a point).

But Im not really wanting to get into another debate about whether or not God is real, which is where this would go. The Westboro guys would view you as being accomodationist and therefore, I strongly suspect, damned.

The only difference between you, in scriptural terms, is that they take an incredibly literalist hardline view, whereas your more "modern" view is that it is open to human interpretation. Their position is actually much easier to defend than yours, I think. It's not particularly intellectually robust, but has a certain assertive "The Bible says it, the bible is true, so what God said and what he does is right, including cancer, violent death, homophobia etc, with NO exceptions".



Never been accused before of being concerned about the Gospel being undermined...:wink:


Your taking on the role of apologist for the Westboro Baptists seems to be clouding your thinking! You need to take on board John 3.16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son...' and maybe then the enormity of the love that God had/has for the people of this world - His creation, might register with you.

There's a hymn that was written around 1,000 AD in Aramaic and has been translated in part as follows:

Were all the skies of parchment made,
And all the seas with ink were filled;
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade;
To write the love of God above,
Would drain the oceans dry,
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.

People who have experienced God's love in their life would endorse and echo all these words.

God called and called and called, a recalcitrant people to Himself to follow Him and Scripture shows time and again His chosen people rejected Him. If you read Isaiah and Jeremiah for example, you'll find God always expressing His complete willingness to forgive their sins and to restore His people. Even Zephaniah at the tail end of the OT was still exhorting people to turn to God in these words and for these blessings:

Sing, daughter Zion;
shout aloud, Israel!
Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
Daughter Jerusalem!
15 The LORD has taken away your punishment,
he has turned back your enemy.
The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you;
never again will you fear any harm.
16 On that day
they will say to Jerusalem,
“Do not fear, Zion;
do not let your hands hang limp.
17 The LORD your God is with you,
the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
but will rejoice over you with singing.”

18 “I will remove from you
all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals,
which is a burden and reproach for you.
19 At that time I will deal
with all who oppressed you.
I will rescue the lame;
I will gather the exiles.
I will give them praise and honor
in every land where they have suffered shame.
20 At that time I will gather you;
at that time I will bring you home.
I will give you honor and praise
among all the peoples of the earth
when I restore your fortunes[e]
before your very eyes,”
says the LORD.

And people still rejected Him and of course still do.

Re your reference to Job, you should have included the conclusion to the book wherein Job accepts God's sovereignty, his forgiveness and his healing and his restoration in the sight of God and man.

There is a whole subject, beyond the theme of this thread, of people finding God through adversity and being more blessed by God through that experience than they were before.

[Twa Cairpets]

Your taking on the role of apologist for the Westboro Baptists seems to be clouding your thinking! You need to take on board John 3.16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son...' and maybe then the enormity of the love that God had/has for the people of this world - His creation, might register with you.

There's a hymn that was written around 1,000 AD in Aramaic and has been translated in part as follows:

Were all the skies of parchment made,
And all the seas with ink were filled;
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade;
To write the love of God above,
Would drain the oceans dry,
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.

People who have experienced God's love in their life would endorse and echo all these words.

God called and called and called, a recalcitrant people to Himself to follow Him and Scripture shows time and again His chosen people rejected Him. If you read Isaiah and Jeremiah for example, you'll find God always expressing His complete willingness to forgive their sins and to restore His people. Even Zephaniah at the tail end of the OT was still exhorting people to turn to God in these words and for these blessings:

Sing, daughter Zion;
shout aloud, Israel!
Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
Daughter Jerusalem!
15 The LORD has taken away your punishment,
he has turned back your enemy.
The LORD, the King of Israel, is with you;
never again will you fear any harm.
16 On that day
they will say to Jerusalem,
“Do not fear, Zion;
do not let your hands hang limp.
17 The LORD your God is with you,
the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
but will rejoice over you with singing.”

18 “I will remove from you
all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals,
which is a burden and reproach for you.
19 At that time I will deal
with all who oppressed you.
I will rescue the lame;
I will gather the exiles.
I will give them praise and honor
in every land where they have suffered shame.
20 At that time I will gather you;
at that time I will bring you home.
I will give you honor and praise
among all the peoples of the earth
when I restore your fortunes[e]
before your very eyes,”
says the LORD.

And people still rejected Him and of course still do.

Re your reference to Job, you should have included the conclusion to the book wherein Job accepts God's sovereignty, his forgiveness and his healing and his restoration in the sight of God and man.

There is a whole subject, beyond the theme of this thread, of people finding God through adversity and being more blessed by God through that experience than they were before.

Ancient, as always, the depth of your religious devotion comes through, and if it gives you happiness thats fine by me. I'm not going to respond to your hymn or scripture, but just narrow in on Job. I understand fully that Job is redeemed through his piety, and essentially God wins his bet with Satan that he will remain devout despite whatever tribulations are thrown his way. It just seems to me that as these tribulations involve ruination of his entire life, the infliction of disease and suffering, the murder of his family and servants (all presumably relatively pious people and certainly innocent in the grand scheme of things), seems a fairly strange way for a creator to show his undying and unconditional love for his people. As is the whole chapter of Revelation in the New Testamanent, which has, for instance, the 200,000 horsemen of the Lord killing a third of mankind Rev 9.15-18.

The Westboro guys believe all the blood and death and murder in the bible literally and choose to celebrate it. I don't and you don't, but for different reasons. Their view is that you can't pick and choose what bits of scripture you choose to decide is relevant to you, and whilst I am diametrically opposed to everythign they belive in, I can understand it better than choosing to decide on a personal basis which bits of the bible are relevant. Loads of the bible, especially the NT, has got really good stuff in it - sensible morality tales and exhortions to be good people, but there are huge chunks of it which are ignored or (more likely) never read by Christians in both testaments which are fundamentally at odds with what we view as being moral. The attitude towards women, for example, of the Westboro guys is that they are subservient and inferior to men. Most people don't view this as being the case, but for NT alone have a look at Peter, 1 Timothy, 1 Cointhians, Colossians and it is pretty clear what the scriptures stance is. Oddly enough it is, for the most part, just kind of ignored nowadays because it fits uncomfortably with what we think of as right.

The Westboro guys dont pick and choose, which makes them seem like crazies to us, but makes mainstream believers like you abhorrent sinners in their eyes. (I would add that if Im wrong and St Peter looms over me when my clogs are popped, I reckon I'd prefer to go with your version rather than theirs).

[Sylar]

I missed this last week, as I was away in Vienna - tried to watch it on the Iplayer whilst there (as I really wanted to see it actually), but not surprisingly, only available in the UK.

Just finished watching it and it certainly made for VERY uncomfortable viewing at points. I almost launched the coffee back out when Lauren's father showed the Jewish video and stated that "the holocaust was God kicking their asses". So many other statements marvelling at recent earthquakes and tsunamis in addition to their usually well defined hatred was pretty shocking.

I also couldn't help but think that this was an intensification of what they've come to be known for and couldn't get past the notion that a lot of this vitriol was purely for show.

They're so blind and irrational, it's just unfunny.

[BEEJ]

The Westboro guys believe all the blood and death and murder in the bible literally and choose to celebrate it. I don't and you don't, but for different reasons. Their view is that you can't pick and choose what bits of scripture you choose to decide is relevant to you, and whilst I am diametrically opposed to everythign they belive in, I can understand it better than choosing to decide on a personal basis which bits of the bible are relevant.

The Westboro guys dont pick and choose, which makes them seem like crazies to us, but makes mainstream believers like you abhorrent sinners in their eyes. (I would add that if Im wrong and St Peter looms over me when my clogs are popped, I reckon I'd prefer to go with your version rather than theirs).
Sorry, TC - you're way off beam here. :greengrin

These guys do indeed pick and choose the parts of Scripture that they find relevant to them; namely, all the passages that relate to God's judgement. They choose to ignore anything concerning God's grace - probably because their leadership have never experienced anything of it themselves.

So not only are they extremely guilty of picking and choosing particular themes and passages of the bible as their raison d'etre, they're managing to get some sort of peculiar celebrity kick out of it as well.

Please don't try to present this cult as having a fully rounded and well thought through position on the entirety of biblical teaching. The truth is quite the reverse.

[Twa Cairpets]

Sorry, TC - you're way off beam here. :greengrin

These guys do indeed pick and choose the parts of Scripture that they find relevant to them; namely, all the passages that relate to God's judgement. They choose to ignore anything concerning God's grace - probably because their leadership have never experienced anything of it themselves.

Thats a very good point.


So not only are they extremely guilty of picking and choosing particular themes and passages of the bible as their raison d'etre, they're managing to get some sort of peculiar celebrity kick out of it as well.

Please don't try to present this cult as having a fully rounded and well thought through position on the entirety of biblical teaching. The truth is quite the reverse.

I hope I havent suggested they present anything other than a horrible travesty of anything decent, religious or otherwise.