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MrSmith
31-03-2011, 11:06 AM
Well, considering they have just slashed Rangers debt by £7.1 million ... I would assume that my overdraft is to be cleared and that Hibs debt of £3m is to be wiped out???

Whaddya think?:confused:

WindyMiller
31-03-2011, 11:12 AM
Well, considering they have just slashed Rangers debt by £7.1 million ... I would assume that my overdraft is to be cleared and that Hibs debt of £3m is to be wiped out???

Whaddya think?:confused:

I don't think Lloyd's slashed the debt, I think Rangers have paid off some more of the debt.

But I'm often wrong (except when in conversation with The Miller's Wife).

.Sean.
31-03-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm with Lloyds aswell. They can feel free to clear a slice of my overdraft any time they like too.

lapsedhibee
31-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Whaddya think?

Shirley Lllloyds will now have to hand over £7.1m to Celtc, otherwise it will be an anti-kafflick conspiracy?

MrSmith
31-03-2011, 11:17 AM
I don't think Lloyd's slashed the debt, I think Rangers have paid off some more of the debt.

But I'm often wrong (except when in conversation with The Miller's Wife).

I heard on the radio this morning (BBC Scotland) that the stumbling block was the amount Craig Whyte was putting up against the debt: £28m v £33m.

However after reading this you may be correct: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/12887647.stm

MrSmith
31-03-2011, 11:20 AM
Shirley Lllloyds will now have to hand over £7.1m to Celtc, otherwise it will be an anti-kafflick conspiracy?

You know, half joking half serious that comment may be, there was serious allegations made to the Police relating to the behavior of some top execs in the Bank of Scotland a few years back when agreeing loan deals with Rangers. Too many of them sitting in the top Ibrox suites and being best pals with Mr Murray.

IWasThere2016
31-03-2011, 11:40 AM
What's debt? Just convert it to shares like Vlad :agree:

Hibs Class
31-03-2011, 11:49 AM
Rangers Supporters' Trust spokeshun said: "Now we are down to one competition, the title race, and that might come down to fine margins. And if Rangers lose out then Rangers fans will not forgive the bank". :crazy:

marinello59
31-03-2011, 11:53 AM
Rangers Supporters' Trust spokeshun said: "Now we are down to one competition, the title race, and that might come down to fine margins. And if Rangers lose out then Rangers fans will not forgive the bank". :crazy:

Do they mention the bit where they bought trophys with the debt they willingly built up?

MrSmith
31-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Do they mention the bit where they bought trophys with the debt they willingly built up?

Irrelevant! It wasn't debt it was necessity! :wink:

greenginger
31-03-2011, 12:49 PM
Rangers Supporters' Trust spokeshun said: "Now we are down to one competition, the title race, and that might come down to fine margins. And if Rangers lose out then Rangers fans will not forgive the bank". :crazy:



If Lloyds Bank shaft the Huns good and proper I promise I'll give them all my business in future !

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

marinello59
31-03-2011, 12:50 PM
If Lloyds Bank shaft the Huns good and proper I promise I'll give them all my business in future !

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Brilliant. Let's all promise to move to Lloyds if they shaft the Huns.:thumbsup:

Hibee D
31-03-2011, 01:27 PM
The article only says the debt has been cut , does not actually say that Lloyds have written off the debt. Would be suprised if they agreed to that after all this time with someone onthe board controlling the pennies

iwasthere1972
31-03-2011, 01:42 PM
If Lloyds Bank shaft the Huns good and proper I promise I'll give them all my business in future !

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

Hope the huns get well and truly horsed.

MrSmith
31-03-2011, 02:21 PM
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/editor-s-picks/craig-whyte-bid-far-from-done-deal-but-it-s-getting-close-to-crunch-time-1.1093800

SloopJB
31-03-2011, 02:22 PM
The article only says the debt has been cut , does not actually say that Lloyds have written off the debt. Would be suprised if they agreed to that after all this time with someone onthe board controlling the pennies
That would appear to correct, It seems strange that there is a plethora of journalists reporting on football and finacial matter yet we struggle to get an in depth report on this.
There seemed to be an argument over a £1m fee seen by Whyte as an early exit fee on the debt which he didn't want to pay, the bank say the fee exists due to a change in the Libor rate the loans were agreed on.
Given the debt figure of £27m, expected to be around £19m to £21m now, with the added complication of a reported estimated £30m case by HMR&C the £1m argument pales into insignificance.

joe_hfc
31-03-2011, 02:47 PM
Well, considering they have just slashed Rangers debt by £7.1 million ... I would assume that my overdraft is to be cleared and that Hibs debt of £3m is to be wiped out???

Whaddya think?:confused:

I think that if he was going to invest 10s of millions he should have done industry more stable, perhaps by following in his colleagues flavoured water idea? He should hold his 'hands up' and admit that he isn't 'so fly' after all!!

SouthMoroccoStu
31-03-2011, 03:27 PM
Rangers Supporters' Trust spokeshun said: "Now we are down to one competition, the title race, and that might come down to fine margins. And if Rangers lose out then Rangers fans will not forgive the bank". :crazy:

Oh aye, you can just imagine all the Huns queuing up to close their accounts.....going to another bank to collect their giro money. I'm sure the staff of lloyds bank will be gutted!!!:wink:

tanfield
31-03-2011, 03:54 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if lloyds had agreed to write off part of the debt to allow the sale to go through.

Bostonhibby
31-03-2011, 06:44 PM
You know, half joking half serious that comment may be, there was serious allegations made to the Police relating to the behavior of some top execs in the Bank of Scotland a few years back when agreeing loan deals with Rangers. Too many of them sitting in the top Ibrox suites and being best pals with Mr Murray.

:agree:Couple of LTSB guys I know say that internally this is regarded as a "Bank of Scotland legacy thing"! Great institutions stick together?:wink:

Hibs Class
31-03-2011, 06:53 PM
:agree:Couple of LTSB guys I know say that internally this is regarded as a "Bank of Scotland legacy thing"! Great institutions stick together?:wink:

Many of the Lloyds guys I know are quite happy to fling ill-informed accusations about Bank of Scotland "things". Lloyds didn't cover themselves in glory in the last few years either though - including having to pay the US authorities several hundred million dollars in fines for repeatedly breaching anti terrorism rules.

Bostonhibby
31-03-2011, 07:00 PM
Many of the Lloyds guys I know are quite happy to fling ill-informed accusations about Bank of Scotland "things". Lloyds didn't cover themselves in glory in the last few years either though - including having to pay the US authorities several hundred million dollars in fines for repeatedly breaching anti terrorism rules.

Sorry, should have been clearer, they work for what is now known as LTSB but one of them is from BOS and the other one is an ex halifax guy. The Hun/BOS connection is as old as the hills. Bankers eh:wink:

WindyMiller
31-03-2011, 07:20 PM
The article only says the debt has been cut , does not actually say that Lloyds have written off the debt. Would be suprised if they agreed to that after all this time with someone onthe board controlling the pennies

Exactly.
The Huns have cut their wage bill and their run in the cups this season have helped their finances.

Bishop Hibee
31-03-2011, 07:26 PM
'Mon the HMRC :agree:

Lofarl
31-03-2011, 07:57 PM
anti terrorism rules??

renato
31-03-2011, 08:24 PM
Sorry, should have been clearer, they work for what is now known as LTSB but one of them is from BOS and the other one is an ex halifax guy. The Hun/BOS connection is as old as the hills. Bankers eh:wink:

Apologies for the pedantic alert but it's LBG (Lloyds Banking Group) :greengrin

Or, at least for as long as big Antonio sees fit....he ain't hanging about in making his mark so far :chop:

You're spot on re the BoS / Greyskull link :agree:

Bostonhibby
31-03-2011, 08:48 PM
Apologies for the pedantic alert but it's LBG (Lloyds Banking Group) :greengrin

Or, at least for as long as big Antonio sees fit....he ain't hanging about in making his mark so far :chop:

You're spot on re the BoS / Greyskull link :agree:

Nae problem, was just chippin in what I heard as far as the Hun link was concerned, Not actually in that game myself......

cabbageandribs1875
01-04-2011, 09:56 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/12932160.stm

Rangers' total debt has increased by nearly £3.5m to £29m, according to the Scottish champions' half-yearly report.


mon the debt

Part/Time Supporter
01-04-2011, 09:58 AM
All the "experts" were assuring all and sundry the debt would be down to circa £20M

:confused:

DH1875
01-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Don't really understand it all but I thought the Huns main problem was with HMRC? Even if they only owe Lloyds 20 million do they not owe 30+million in tax etc... or have I got it all wrong.

Hibs Class
01-04-2011, 06:56 PM
Don't really understand it all but I thought the Huns main problem was with HMRC? Even if they only owe Lloyds 20 million do they not owe 30+million in tax etc... or have I got it all wrong.

They definitely owe Lloyds £20m+. Their view will be that they need to reduce that but they can just about afford to pay the interest and there isn't any way that Lloyds would expect the whole lot back in one go, unless it was by Rangers moving the debt to another bank. They also claim to not owe HMRC £30m+ but if they lose that case then HMRC will expect the whole amount in a fairly short timescale and that is what will cause them a huge problem.

Bostonhibby
01-04-2011, 07:47 PM
When the Yams regularly report worse figures as a proportion of a much smaller turnover, with comparatively less success - unless you believe the actually won the CL, split the OF, built the Megasuperstadium and have 400k at every home game - and continue to trade quite happily, this is a drop in the ocean to a club the Huns size long term, they win more, generate more cash, have more "institutional" backing. Mind you if they are struggling maybe the Yam model is the future :wink:

C'mon the HMRC, remember you work for all of us in the Big Society, we want our money back............

DH1875
02-04-2011, 03:13 PM
They definitely owe Lloyds £20m+. Their view will be that they need to reduce that but they can just about afford to pay the interest and there isn't any way that Lloyds would expect the whole lot back in one go, unless it was by Rangers moving the debt to another bank. They also claim to not owe HMRC £30m+ but if they lose that case then HMRC will expect the whole amount in a fairly short timescale and that is what will cause them a huge problem.


See this is the thing I don't quite get. Why would anyone buy them before this is resolved? It don't make any sence.

Hibs Class
02-04-2011, 03:19 PM
See this is the thing I don't quite get. Why would anyone buy them before this is resolved? It don't make any sence.

Someone may consider buying them before it's resolved if the existing owner was willing to accept responsibility for paying any fine etc. that HMRC was to impose. Or they could buy them but at a price which was reduced to reflect the risk of the fine subsequently being imposed. Either way, the current owner may feel they were getting the short end of the stick in such a deal, if they believe a fine is unlikely. That seems to be the current position.

Bostonhibby
02-04-2011, 04:04 PM
It's the HMRC thing that rankles me. This is about tax on income they have had, all they had to do was put the tax money aside but they haven't, there is also an element of PAYE they may have to pay from staff's earnings, there may also be VAT, all of which they have had / collected. I know from personal experience of much lower sums that the tax man is down on you like a ton of bricks for payment, so why do businesses like this one get away with it?

Arch Stanton
02-04-2011, 04:36 PM
It's the HMRC thing that rankles me. This is about tax on income they have had, all they had to do was put the tax money aside but they haven't, there is also an element of PAYE they may have to pay from staff's earnings, there may also be VAT, all of which they have had / collected. I know from personal experience of much lower sums that the tax man is down on you like a ton of bricks for payment, so why do businesses like this one get away with it?

That's just what you get for not taking the trouble to become a brother mason - no excuse really.:bitchy:

Bostonhibby
02-04-2011, 04:51 PM
That's just what you get for not taking the trouble to become a brother mason - no excuse really.:bitchy:

:greengrin Would sooner eat my own leg.

DH1875
02-04-2011, 04:52 PM
That's just what you get for not taking the trouble to become a brother mason - no excuse really.:bitchy:


Do you think the rumours that the tax man will do them some sort of deal are true? Reckon it's an utter joke if he does.

CropleyWasGod
02-04-2011, 05:19 PM
Do you think the rumours that the tax man will do them some sort of deal are true? Reckon it's an utter joke if he does.

See my earlier post on tax settlements. It's a virtual certainty.... public interest, loss of jobs, loss of future tax revenue. And that, IMO, is the way it should be. Hammer them, sure, but don't put them out of business.

PaulSmith
02-04-2011, 05:28 PM
See my earlier post on tax settlements. It's a virtual certainty.... public interest, loss of jobs, loss of future tax revenue. And that, IMO, is the way it should be. Hammer them, sure, but don't put them out of business.

"Any stories you might have heard about pennies on the pound deals are either urban myths or are from cases where the law is vague and HMRC can see that there is genuine ambiguity about how much should be paid. Negotiating tax discounts creates a perverse incentive for tax payers: why pay the full amount on time when I can try to cheat and even if caught, I will pay less and later. It is nonsense, It does not happen. It will not happen. Least of all, HMRC will not be heading to the table for talks after having just won a protracted and expensive legal battle."

From rangers tax case blog.

CropleyWasGod
02-04-2011, 05:32 PM
"Any stories you might have heard about pennies on the pound deals are either urban myths or are from cases where the law is vague and HMRC can see that there is genuine ambiguity about how much should be paid. Negotiating tax discounts creates a perverse incentive for tax payers: why pay the full amount on time when I can try to cheat and even if caught, I will pay less and later. It is nonsense, It does not happen. It will not happen. Least of all, HMRC will not be heading to the table for talks after having just won a protracted and expensive legal battle."

From rangers tax case blog.

In my experience, the "discounts" that are talked about are on the penalties levied. HMRC and the taxpayer agree the amount of tax, plus the interest for late payment. Then negotiation starts about the level of the penalties... effectively the fine for being bad. In theory, they can charge 100% of the tax. In practice, that is discounted for such factors as level of gravity, and extent of co-operation.

It's the penalties that will be discounted, not the tax.

PaulSmith
02-04-2011, 05:34 PM
In my experience, the "discounts" that are talked about are on the penalties levied. HMRC and the taxpayer agree the amount of tax, plus the interest for late payment. Then negotiation starts about the level of the penalties... effectively the fine for being bad. In theory, they can charge 100% of the tax. In practice, that is discounted for such factors as level of gravity, and extent of co-operation.

It's the penalties that will be discounted, not the tax.

Agree there, thought previous posts were agreeing that the actual tax due would be settled by payment of Xp in the £

CropleyWasGod
02-04-2011, 05:42 PM
Agree there, thought previous posts were agreeing that the actual tax due would be settled by payment of Xp in the £

Actually, that would not surprise me either. I did say earlier that HMRC are being increasingly commercial in their approach.

It may be that the actual tax would be enough put RFC out of business......... if that were the case, they would go into liquidation, the bank would get first dibs, and HMRC possibly damn all. People would lose jobs, and the State lose out big time.

The alternative is, indeed, to accept a lower amount, and ensure continued trading. However, I am not sure that HMRC have much latitude in that. That might require a legal challenge.

DH1875
02-04-2011, 05:52 PM
So say they owe £20 million in tax, £10 million in NIS and £10 million in intrest that's £40 million. How can them only having to pay £4 million be right?

sahib
02-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Actually, that would not surprise me either. I did say earlier that HMRC are being increasingly commercial in their approach.

It may be that the actual tax would be enough put RFC out of business......... if that were the case, they would go into liquidation, the bank would get first dibs, and HMRC possibly damn all. People would lose jobs, and the State lose out big time.

The alternative is, indeed, to accept a lower amount, and ensure continued trading. However, I am not sure that HMRC have much latitude in that. That might require a legal challenge.

Does the taxman not get first dibs?

CropleyWasGod
02-04-2011, 05:55 PM
Does the taxman not get first dibs?

If Lloyds have security, and I presume they will have over the stadium, I'm pretty sure they will get first bite.

CropleyWasGod
02-04-2011, 05:56 PM
So say they owe £20 million in tax, £10 million in NIS and £10 million in intrest that's £40 million. How can them only having to pay £4 million be right?

Who says they are only paying 10%?